 Nigerians will express regret if Minister Issa Pantami is removed from office. So say his popular Muslim cleric, Ahmad Kouzi. And a global report says Nigeria is the third worst-governed country in the world. This is Boss Politics and I am Osao Ye of Bonn. Thanks for joining us. Welcome once again to Boss Politics. A strong warning has been issued to Nigerians by prominent Islamic cleric Ahmad Goumi over calls for the resignation and sacking of Issa Pantami, Minister of Communications and Digital Economy. The cleric said Nigerians will regret if the minister is removed from office. In addition to this, the Muslim rights concern, Meric has commended the federal government for defending the minister while the Center for Anti-Corruption and Open Leadership Cackle has written to President Mohammad Bari on Monday demanding that Issa Pantami be sacked. Joining us to discuss this is Ishaka Kintala, the Executive Director of Muslim Rights Concern, Meric, and Debo De Niro, the Chairman, the Center for Anti-Corruption and Open Leadership Cackle. Thank you both for joining us this evening. Alright, I'm going to start with Mr. Kintala. We've also had a conversation on this platform before, still speaking about Issa Pantami. I want you to quickly share with us the reasons why you felt the federal government made the right move by deciding to stick with the minister. Of course, the federal government, the president, made the right decision by supporting Dr. Issa Pantami because they know, and it is very clear to me, that those who are falling for its resignation were doing so because of the data. Do you see how the government is going to do it like that? They were tied up, asking for their food of price. Many of these people are supporters of the Ahouz-Yahouz boys. Look, it's a mentality. Many of them are scared. In fact, all the aims on their criminal system, they know with any of these things, by Dr. Pantami, they're planning to facilitate their activities, looking them, and to finally expose them and stop what they're doing. They don't want this to happen. They are going to stop Dr. Pantami by all means. All right. Pantami is also right between the lines. People who are after Pantami are some of them, and that's what we mean, going after Pantami's people. Mr. Pantami himself, he's made a target. He made a target. You see, the opportunity, if you want to play politics in idea, it's totally different. It is reasonable. We are catchy. We are mean. People are issues that are for facilities and what they are initiating. It's a better development of the city. It will make life more abundant. We'll be opposed in ideas because they don't want to take the current government to make it appropriate for officials taking a new election. All right, Mr. Akintola, hold on. What is the assessment in ideas? Mr. Akintola, hold on. I think you've made your point well enough on the reasons for what you've said. The people who are against Issa Pantami are those who are angry with his moves with regards to the NIN, and of course also those who are trying to bring down the Buhari administration and are going through Issa Pantami. All right, Deba Deniron, you have a totally different narrative and you have, of course, spoken against the presidency's support for the minister. Do you not agree with Issa Akintola where he says that the people who are against Issa Pantami are simply those yahoo boys, according to him, who want to bring the minister down? What are your thoughts? Thank you for talking to me. I'm going to talk to you about the first time I was disagreeing with Professor Akintola on the issue of governance in Nigeria. Professor Akintola knew that the purpose of governance is to ensure that welfare and security of Nigerian people are fulfilled. And if that is not the end, then the purpose of governance has been defeated. Mr. Pantami has a background of Islamic extremism on the kind of Islamic justice that people like Lume or Mr. Pantami, what they say, and with no kind of say is that they don't have every hazard to come with the work of a free means for jihad. And for somebody who has that ideological inclination to be difficult to erase it from his mind, he will need to return to what he has said before. Mr. Pantami was a preacher who actually preached Baale. He said people should be king and that he is happy when the fact that things like this are more that in cold blood by the Islamic extremism. That is not good for the development of a country. This is a sympathizer with Aquedra and Saliban. And we knew what Aquedra and Saliban had done to the human race. They have proved themselves to be blood cassettes and what they go for is blood anywhere they say. He has sympathized with people around that have been much less people in droves over the years. He has said that Nigeria and me ought not to have designated those that were forced because destroying people's lives are so passive that they were thinking like this. That is an extreme sympathy expressed to those who have taken joy in those poor times people like Iran. So you don't agree? Mr. Pantami is not to have been that extreme in his preaching. And that's not a fact. So you don't agree with the narrative of him saying those things in his past and he may have turned a new leaf over time. It's been more than a decade since those things were said. So don't you agree that he may be a different man today? You make these statements step by step. And they are not so long in time. All that long until he was called out he had never denied things in the world that he thought he said his videos or videos are in print. And during his preaching he had actually ordered that anybody that said anything like this long to be more that that he had more the context on when these were on on him. And it's not because he was to keep his job as communication and digital economy he wouldn't have thought of reclaiming those statements he claimed that he made when he was younger. Thank you. This is an ideological state. It is difficult to remove people even if they claim that they have to enhance those plasticity and principles that govern their minds in the past. And if they did that they would still be the concrete fight to the zero risk. As to the estimate who needs to get information about individuals. I didn't know how to hold on. I'm not talking about the young boys who want to escape from the hands of people. It is not correct to say that because people for information are linked with them and say who doesn't want to see anything good because they are not trying to say the same thing with them. It means that they don't trace anybody and hack them down anywhere they can see all over the world. Hold on. We need to work with time so we can have both of you use adequately. Ishaqa Kintola, I'm going back to you now. Adeba Adinira doesn't agree with your perspective. But I want to speak on the part where he supposedly recounted some of those statements in the period that all of this has been part of our discussion nationally. Do you think that it is important that Ishaqa and Tami addresses Nigerians and publicly recounts those statements that he made and publicly denounces the Taliban and Al Qaeda and Boko Haram and all that they stand for? Do you think it's important with the accusations against him today that he does that? Hello. Can I come in here? Ishaqa Kintola, go ahead. I'm speaking to you now. Yes. You see, the critics of Boko Haram has nothing to do with what they are saying anymore. The critics responding to that remote past and those distant statements that were made more than 13 years ago, when shall we move forward? When shall we stop digging into the past? So for one thing, we cannot be broken. They are breaking history. The trail of history. It has a remote past and immediate past followed by the present. Because history is a point now. Yes, but this is what I'm asking, Ishaqa Kintola. This is what I'm asking. Yeah, and this is what I'm asking this. In order for us to focus on the future that you just mentioned now or the present that you just mentioned, Nigerians would like to know exactly the thoughts and the emotions Ishaqa Kintola has towards Al Qaeda and towards the Taliban and Boko Haram. So do you think it's important in the light of all the things that we're discussing today and the fight against terrorism? Do you think it is important that he publicly renounces and shares his thoughts concerning terrorism today? Well, no. Now, just yesterday I was there about while somebody somebody twisted telling Nigerians how as a Christian he had been trained by the Christian Association of Nigeria can in martial art and handling of weapons. Because they believe they must weapons someday. He participated at me. He treated me publicly. Ishaqa Kintola, you're not answering my question. Again, if I'm going to say this, please I'm going to follow up by saying today he doesn't believe he should have done that and that he doesn't believe in that ideology anymore. So what my friend over there is saying that performing ideology cannot change Ishaqa is unreliable. It's not basic. What you say as a young man is beautiful and jubilant. What you do and what you believe is okay. Great. So once again take away your mature. Once again, Mr. Kintola. Take away your mature. Once again, Mr. Kintola. Take away your mature. To not accuse. Yeah. Our people, these people, these creeps want to cross pandemic past. Don't want to reject it to the public. Ishaqa Kintola, do you understand my question? We are not being realistic. But this is what I'm asking. Objective. Ishaqa Kintola, if you would hold on. If you would hold on. This is what I'm asking. Great. But in order for us to move forward is it important, and I'm going to go back to David about Denirana, is it important that we at least know where Ishaqa Kintola stands today? We don't want to assume. Nigerians don't want to assume that it happened 20 years ago and by now he should have changed. Is it important to you that we know what Ishaqa Kintola thinks today about terrorism, about al-Qaeda, about the Taliban and about Tabuk al-Haram? Not assumptions now, but hearing say it. Do you think it's important? Thank you very much. Mr. Patani was accused of this statement of making such a plan to conflagrate free statesmen. He has never said anything in criticism of al-Qaeda Taliban and Tabuk al-Haram. He has never criticized them. He has never seen anything bad to what Tabuk al-Haram is doing to Nigeria. He has not spoken against anything that the Nazis are doing in Nigeria. It means that it is in support of it. And I have said that any ideological thing it can never be completely erased from those who have policies, especially in the extreme point of view. They have the doctrine inside their minds and it is not likely they will move it overnight. And I tell you that these people are also very strategic. It may be part of their own strategy to protect the state of all the states to make it a part of to be saying that he has recanted all of those statements made in the past. He has not come into the open to say that what Taliban what al-Qaeda what Tabuk al-Haram what ISIS are doing against the principle of humanity is one huge crime through which all of these extreme religious vices want to get information about such important people even the military and the police and other security agencies can be channeled to the enemy through these kinds of pestings. So if they go away to pretend that he has recanted or that he has actually denounced that state or the extreme regime that governs mind in the past it could be a way to baboon through the rest of us as the innocent conflict. Thank you. What we say doesn't mean that we don't have people with such safety past to bring to govern us especially in the area of communication and data that we can use our financial resources and our personal personal weather can be assessed. We can look for somebody who do not have those who don't have such safety past that can be scary. Hold on. I want to go back to Ishak Akintola. Can you hear us? Before you go on this is the question that I once again put into you and I would like that you quickly answer it. Do you think that it is important that today in the light of all these discussions do you think is important that Issa Pantami addresses the public and publicly renounces his earlier statements and his earlier beliefs and teachings towards the Taliban and to Al Qaeda and to Boko Haram. Do you think you should do it? Yes or no? Say that again. Why if we pursue a project which would be important? Why is Issa Pantami not the fact that the ministry of communications and technology was touched with the terrorists that killed him. It's not ignored. You've made that statement on this platform before. In any case this issue should be right. It should be right. It's my fault and I have to do. We should forward and backward forward and backward. I think the question is important. This issue should be dropped. It's still common in particular and critical to hold this mantra as very important. Every ministry today is a story. Every ministry today is a story. I want to put one more question to you before we wrap up. One more question to you. I would like you to answer as quickly as possible. Do you believe Isyaka Kintola, can you hear me? No. It's a violation of the fundamental human life of Muslims. Muslims are forced to be a terrorist. You are on my side. This is not a Muslim minister. We're not having a discussion on Muslims this evening. I want to ask one final question to you. Hold on. I want one last question to you before we go. We may have to go back to Isyaka Kintola. I wish that you would at least let us have this conversation one after the other. If you can hear us, would you hold on so we can have one last question before we go? Isyaka Kintola? Yes. I would like you to answer this as quickly as possible. I believe that Murik as a body and yourself desperately and very, very, very badly want terrorism to end in Nigeria. Is that a yes or no? I didn't get your point. Does Murik as a body and do you yourself want terrorism to be over in Nigeria? We have issues separately, more than 100 times. Consumminar Coedas. The answer is yes. This is the question I want to ask you, Mr. Kintola. This is the question I want to ask. Do you Yes. Yes, I get that. Great. That's what we're talking about now, Mr. Kintola. Mr. Kintola, this is just one question that we're trying to pull through to you. Mr. Kintola, I want you to quickly just tell us if you believe that anything should be done and Nigeria as a country should be willing to sacrifice, should be willing to pay whatever amount is necessary or sacrifice whatever is necessary in order for us to achieve an end to terrorism. We are not sacrificing Nigeria. Nobody is sacrificing Nigeria. You're not listening to me, Mr. Kintola. Mr. Kintola, I'm sorry, you're not listening to me. I don't want you to use our platform to paint a wrong narrative. That's all we're talking about. You're the one bringing in Muslims in this conversation. Thank you very much. Mr. Kintola, if he thinks it is necessary that whatever it is, the price that we have to pay, even if it means sacrificing a minister just so that we can see the end of terrorism in Nigeria, if that is a worthy price to pay. Thank you very much. The truth is that we should dissuade those who are engaging in religious fundamentalism to stop it. Otherwise, we will not get to get to what we are talking about. At the time of Shifu, who was the predecessor of Patani in the office, was also a Muslim. Nobody accused him that he had executive power. No, Mr. Kintola, it's not when I am. The Shifu also was a minister of communication and he listed as a number of things. We have not said every Muslim is a fundamentalist. What we are saying is that those that have the background of a religion that is not true. You have always been a friend to Kakua and a friend to so many Nigerians as we did. Nobody would say that what you are doing is fundamentalism. But then, if you have the kind of past that Patani has, that's the past. If you continue to hope that people's heads with stones and that they should drive a car on top of human beings, that is not good. And when you look at the way ISIS is operating, when you look at the way Boko Haram has brought many people on the army, you will know that they are actually obeying the junction of the picture of people and the picture. We should stop fundamentalism if we want to live together in a secular country called Nigeria. We should be able to accept ourselves and be able to tolerate one another. You are not an extremist. You are not an extremist. You are not an extremist. We are going to have to end this segment here. Chairman for Anti-Corruption and Open Leadership thank you very much for your time and for speaking with us. Ishaqa Kintala, Executive Director Muslim Rights Concern thank you very much for your time this evening. We are hoping to have a very, very basic and simple conversation. And by the way, Adeba Eshutio also had his own challenges. As Minister, he was also accused of not being able to provide his NYC certificate. But he still did outlive his tenure. The only difference was that he wasn't able to provide his certificate. Thank you very much once again for both of you. We'll take a short break. When we come back, we'll speak about the rating of governments in Nigeria. Stay with us.