 What was what was it like seeing it again because you've you've only seen it at home. You haven't seen it in the crowd. Yes It's and there's more to my life than what was on this film believe me Well, this is sort of one of the interesting things that I've sort of had to try to figure out because each of these guys that I'm interviewing has You know a minimum of 70 72 years of life experience and generally the interviews are about an hour long completed or less and So part of what I've had to try to figure out is what's the what's the in The narrative storyline that this project is about and it's really about I Said to one of the guys. I said, you know, it's about What happened when you first realized that your boner was pointed in the wrong direction and how you evolved so it really does It's become more focused since I did this one with you But it's really the idea is to really focus on the journey of realizing that one is gay Starting often at a time when people didn't even know that other gay people existed So yeah, I left out a lot Yeah, I think as I said in the film I figured out very early on there were there were other gay people even back in In Iowa in the middle of the country on farmland No Yeah, and you never got arrested or anything like that and As none actually only one they should have been probably should have been Alex, um, do you remember when I first called you to work on this? No Bring in I was younger. I'm I'm gonna be 27 in like a month. I think I was it was 24 Yeah, you were 24 when you started Alex is someone who I guess you had contacted me After I had made we were here you posted something about the movie and we sort of became Facebook friends and then we met at Frameline and So yeah when when the idea came up to work with younger gay men as editors Alex was one of the first people I thought I've also been Zweig who's back here is one of the editors on this project and Was someone who I called immediately to participate in this Alex will probably need lifetime psychotherapy after No, I needed this when I was I knew this much younger and I would have been a lot less Alex, can you talk a little bit about what your journey has been with this? Yeah, so I Don't even know like I think the first footage I saw of this project was Jack actually because I'm not sure if you'd even Maybe you had already filmed this we weren't even sure what we were gonna do with me You just talking about the project and when I first saw that footage it was so fascinating because you were talking about stuff that I Had always had questions about but I'd never talked about it with older gay guys, so I didn't even Know of you or anything yet, and then when you finally showed me his footage. I Was like I have to do this because first off I'm also from a farm town in Indiana, and so it was really fascinating to think about How similar our upbringings or our experiences were even though completely different generations? I Didn't have glue or holes, but I had you know like I think my version of like little magazines was like The pictures of underwear at the like the like a Walmart or something I was like, oh, I remember like sneaking glances when I was like with friends and they were like actually shopping for underwear I was like looking at bulls so that would have been pre-internet. Also. No, yeah, I didn't have pretty I didn't have internet when I was a kid Yeah, I didn't have internet till I Think high school like at my house. Maybe middle school so my first experiences were also Publications that weren't even like sexual, but so it was just interesting to relate so much to your Experiences without really having a similar lifestyle at all like I didn't go in the military or anything, so Yeah, actually the internet didn't come around until about 92 and it's hard now to visualize That didn't seem that far away But we haven't had the internet that long. Well, and even back then it was so limited in what it gave us access to Yeah, it's kind of mind-boggling One of the things that in working the way I've worked with the editors is that Generally, we start off working like two or three days together and we'll look at the material together and talk about the content and also talk about the style of Storytelling and then Alex lives in LA So I guess first time we met was I I was in LA right or yeah, and then The editors will work and then they'll post an edit on Vimeo and I'll give notes And then we'll go back and forth a few times and then we get together a couple more times over the process But one of the things that I encouraged Alex to do in the cutting of this was to get together with Friends his own age and watch the work in progress and can you talk a little bit about what that experience was like? Yeah It actually the people I showed it to I didn't even really a couple were people I knew well and then the other two I kind of showed it like four it was half and half people I knew and people I didn't really know and it was interesting because in all of the screenings It was just a really organic atmosphere for Just talking about stuff. We never talk about like our first experiences of being gay Like when did you know and all that stuff and it was kind of funny was like things I was like, oh, I hadn't even thought to talk about that really but then To hear your life. It was even more interesting because you were touching on stuff that we didn't even Think about as being like hurdles. You had to go over like oh, I didn't even think that that would be a problem or like a I don't know to describe it But it just opened up a whole and I also found out some friends were way more interested in this stuff as well I didn't feel like such a weirdo who was also like kind of insecure about talking to older guys. So Those were kind of no offense but like some of my favorite parts of this project were kind of interacting with people my age because It was kind of unifying in a cool way and it wouldn't have happened if you guys hadn't talked Let's open it up to questions Cuz yeah Other was more The question is about what Bob feels has been the most sort of profound aspect of his life in a relationship to being a political activist well going back to Towards the end of the film I pointed out, you know, we've got a lot of problems still that we have to face and and We have a lot of organizations out there that are working to help us do this. So we've got Well, one of my favorites is Rain line the film festival We've got horizons We've got lambda legal. We've got NCLR The list goes on and on of all the gay organizations we have out there that need our help and I've done what I can But we need a lot more people working with them we've got open house We've got The LGBT Or the gay Historical society we've got the James Hormel Center, which is part of where we are tonight All of these organizations need additional funding And I would hope that we could continue to support them and do our part and I know a number of the organizations Are represented here tonight and thank you very much for being here One of the things that's so sort of striking seeing this now is that obviously this was filmed before the election and the Idea that things would change to the extent that they have never occurred to us I mean, you know, who could have imagined where we'd be right now and you in a sense you know are admonishing people not to think we've won all of the victories and So yeah, it's a totally different reality that we're facing now. Well, I mean even when we were cutting this I remember it was kind of we were on it felt like an upswing because I think marriage equality just passed and We were watching the footage of being like, oh, okay Bob like calm down like it's like it's good and it's so crazy how Yeah, it's like it's pretty nuts that You're very if that that piece is the biggest Take way to this project. I think is the long view because there are times where things get Very overwhelming I feel with the state of things and To see what you went through and what all the other guys went through that you've talked to you so far I feel like there are times now. I'm like, okay, we can get through this shit storm because you guys have been through Worse, I would I would say but maybe not who knows it feels like every day. There's another disaster, but There's been many times in the back of my mind when I'm with friends and when I'm with people where I'm just like I Feel like there's no optimism and hope left then I'm just like I hear your voice were like just be vigilant and Kind of kick it into gear and it's really great. It's like it's Something that has changed me through this process process, which is great And I forgot to mention the transgender Law Center. That's another one we need to really really support The first time that these two met We were just about done with the editing on the piece It wasn't completely done But we were showing excerpts at the Castro and I wanted Bob to see the full edit and Alex was up here for those screenings and so Alex and I went over to Bob's and that was the first time that the two of them met and both were very excited about meeting each other and But it was it was a there was a very profound moment that happened I'm you're not going to cry this time because it's far enough since it happened, but Alex it was right after Orlando and Alex respond got very emotional in the room with the two of us and talked about how Really for him. It was the first time feeling really really vulnerable as a gay person and in such a shocking way and again that how Getting to know Bob through the process of working on this had really been a kind of a way of Helping him maneuver through the the shock of Orlando. So that was a very powerful moment. I Mean speaking for myself. I mean this project is different for me in that In the other films that I've made really they aren't They don't have any value until they're in front of an audience at a film festival or going on TV And I've really tried to approach this project where every aspect of it has its own inherent value So the the shoot has its own inherent value and part of what I hope to do for the people who I'm interviewing is to give them an experience of feeling witnessed and valued and seen at a time of life in which many older people or gay people or otherwise feel invisible and So that's one aspect of it. I want the people on the crew to have an experience. That's a rich one I want the experience for the editors to be rich. So each each Each aspect of the project for me has its own inherent value So I'm not so focused on the result in a in a way that one normally is when making a film I don't remember where I was going with that any any other questions. Yes, I Have a sort of a technical question about the production of the film How much film did you shoot to get the 48 minutes to edit down to 48 minutes and the reason I'm asking that is it seems that The film seems to be very cohesive like it doesn't seem to jump around as if there's obvious cuts So can you say Comment a little bit about how much film you actually shot and how you made it so so I would guess it's about Probably about three hours max total material that gets cut down And I mean that's where the editing comes in. I mean When I started doing this, I thought what are people gonna think because I mean it's gonna is it gonna just look like a talk show and Will people make that assumption, but they're very intentionally edited and so Thank you for it For saying that it seems smooth, but there is that's what Alex and I do In the process of editing these things is to try to create a narrative that keeps your attention I mean part of it is I mean in terms of the of what Bob raised about He's done a lot more in his 77 years of life than what's in here Is that I also am very aware that nobody's gonna watch a seven-hour long piece on Bob Dockendorf I would but I don't know that that everybody else would and so I have to be cognizant of What's the how how long can these be and then One of my editors in the back then raise your hand another one of my wonderful editors Ben and I had a number of conversations about length and you know how well about the length of the piece And And I think what I said was I want them to be as long as they can Because the material is important and I'm not as worried about whether or not someone will Watch the whole thing at one sitting or or whatever But but given that these are stories from a generation whose stories are different than anyone that follows The pre-stonewall generation. I want to have as much information in there as Possible so that they are of value for posterity and going forward. So it's a really it's a different way of working and So as long as they can but also short enough so that they ideally Can maintain enough momentum and engagement so that people do watch them all the way through as much as possible in one sitting Yeah Yeah, I mean the whole idea of these is that they are as available as possible to as many people as possible and how exactly That's gonna play out. I don't know. I mean even this is something that I hadn't really anticipated everything about the project is sort of Evolved in a very organic way. I didn't know that I was gonna be doing public screenings of these I've sort of very much avoided thinking about that because I wanted to do the work just on its own terms But yes, I mean ideally These will be available for free to as many people as possibly can see them Yeah, it's all the project has changed quite a bit for me since the election I Probably will not make any more than I've made which was not originally what my thought was is that I would do them for a long time Yes Bruce Was there Mike? Thank you so over the years we've had representation in San Francisco City government by different gay people starting with Harvey milk and You know lots of lesbians and different people, but we've never had a You know lots of wonderful folks from our community, but Across the country we've had gay mayors or lesbian mayors This city has not had one yet Here's three different age groups Does our city need one that the two different parties have ran both? Queer candidates and non-queer candidates Jane Kim I Like like for game like a gay mayor. Yeah, I think we've got potentially the next mayor of San Francisco setting right here in the audience tonight Was that a trick was that a trick question Bruce Podette I know you Yes cast your mind back to 1665 and tell us about the neighborhoods that were in San Francisco I know that the waterfront had been a neighborhood in the early 60s with Jack's waterfront and some of the bars there were the bars that you went to along Market Street or were they in the tenderloin? Try try Folsom Folsom. Okay, so the toolbox the toolbox and Toolbox Phoebe's the covered wagon Actually, there was I did hang out on Polk Street quite a little because the ps restaurant and Cassidy Crystal Mexican restaurant were all owned by a good by Bob trollop and J. Levine and and and Bob Jammerin And of course there was there was also the bar on Sutter Street the rendezvous Which was a bar that many people probably the older folks in here been in remember that one. It was a great great bar another one of trollop's bars Since he bought me the drinks when I first got into town most of them I could I could have free drinks I had a question Bob, you know, you were sort of talked about You know the nonprofits and so on but you know, you also mentioned the thing of like, you know People still get kicked out of their families and need support. I mean, what do you you know? What are your ideas in terms of you know, long-term? sustainability of the gay community that's an interesting question again The key word is community and We have a number of organizations that will take care of Kids that are get kicked out. We've got there LGBT Center Which does a lot of work in that area We've got a number of other organizations right off hand. I Yes Larkin Street, yeah But you know at some point we have to keep these organizations in place we have to keep the community in place We have to keep Meeting face-to-face. I mean the bars are going away. Unfortunately But only because they've not that I want to Push alcohol, but that they were a meeting place for folks. We need other institutions that will take the place of Those for people to get face-to-face contact again First of all, I loved it. Thank you all for doing it. It was just great. Thanks like now David This is for you. How are you going to change your persona? You mentioned that you're going to after seeing yourself on film? Ways you were I'm interested in you. Well, I'm blonde and all of the other ones You know, it's it's when you're when you're interviewing in a conventional documentary You you instruct the person to try to use the question in the answer So that the the questioner is invisible. So this is completely different And I think I was sort of fumbling my way a little bit through this one There's so many things to keep in the in one's mind in a situation like this I have to be aware of first all I have to listen really closely because I don't really know where the interview is going to go So I'm being strategic in a sense in relationship to editing I'm also being alert to when fatigue is going to set in because it does always either for me or for the other person And where are we in the story? But one of the things that I remember being asked by some students once about You know just quest interviewing styles and I said well, it's always different Depending on who you're dealing with but one of the things that I know is that It's really important that the person who you're interviewing feels like that every word that's coming out of their mouth is Fascinating to you. So one of the things that I noticed when I first saw myself on camera is that I was over-emoting Because you know, I'm kind of going you know and and so I tones down I tone down some of the emoting on camera because It shows, you know, and so things like that, but also Yeah, it was really interesting watching this one I mean Bob in a sense was an early guinea pig on this project, but I Feel like I've gotten better Figuring out how I bring value added the the balance between being an interviewer or a Co-conversationalist and a storyteller on my own ways in which I ask can ask questions or Establish a tone that Will that the audience will pick up on in terms of camaraderie or intimacy So there's all kinds of different pieces. So there's all of this is going on in my mind While I'm also trying to be a really really attentive listener. So it's been a learning process for me And they're all really different I mean if I hope that a lot of you can come to the other two that I'm showing here because they're quite each of them are quite different the The one that I'm showing at the Jewish contemporary Jewish Museum. I'm not on screen It was the first one that I did and it's with Jack last or it's quite different stylistically, but he's a pip he's a quite a Character Yes Well, I have a comment or question for each of you. So I'll be quick. I'm first of all David, I I think that you are a great interviewer In this and I really enjoyed it plus. I don't know if you had braces or not, but you have beautifully straight teeth. I Take him out every night, but they're Well, they look great while you're wearing So anyway, I think that you're a great interview and it seemed very natural and I really enjoyed that. Thank you Bob I wanted to ask you about the cable car club or whatever that was that cable car awards the cable car awards And also to ask you if the Organizations that youth are identifying as needs support if they need more than just money for those of us who are not endowed with capital After the election, I actually did some outreach to a couple of organizations that I wanted to connect with and Did not get responses to my desire to volunteer and then lastly for Alex, yeah, I wanted you to talk a little bit about the things that you observed in the footage that you and Maybe your friends didn't realize were barriers for gay men from the earlier generations. So thanks cable car awards Cable car that's that that was a really a big event in San Francisco for many many years where Bob Kramer started it and Bob was a wonderful person very Outgoing What we did we recognized outstanding people bars events Everything in the gay community had it fell into a category and We awarded those Gave nice nice plaques and awards to all the winners of the various that represented the various organizations and Groups it was I really hated to see it go but again The internet things like that wore it down eventually As far as volunteering a lot of organizations need volunteers, it's too bad that you've had some bad experience there, but there's Trying to think of who lists all of the gay organizations that There's several places you might start by calling Horizons Foundation and ask them if they know of Organizations that are currently looking for volunteers because there is a lot of need for volunteer work Open house might be another one to Contact sometimes it's just persistence to because sometimes the volunteers are answering the phones. So, you know just persistence sometimes helps Alex did you want it? Yeah, I think the And I hate being healthy. I Think one of the biggest barriers, which is actually the least touched upon is the 80s and AIDS and That because it's so It's so hard to Kind of grasp and so but like I personally, you know, I kind of wanted Know more about it or no like firsthand like like what it was like and so that's who wants to talk about that in You know, just kind of randomly. So the way you guys kind of handled that was interesting because you both had history with it and lost people and it I Don't that didn't really answer the question, but it was just interesting because I think sometimes It might be just okay to ask about that even though it is a touchy thing Because I just feel like if we can understand sort of our experiences we can Actually, you could make more friends that are a little bit younger because you mentioned that and that always broke my heart that line We were like, you know the older the older you get the harder it is to make friends and I feel like a lot of us just not wanting to Make the other one uncomfortable or not waste the time or I don't know. Um, but you were pretty Open, I mean, I actually did enjoy. I know it's like your least favorite part But I also really liked hearing about the sex stuff because it's like I am curious like what what were you doing? Like it's just like because there's so much there's so many things in your way Like how it and it's actually crazy. You were a lot more adventurous than I am So and you had a lot of the editors said that about the people that they were editing And I know that some of the editors have had new experiences that they hadn't had before some degree Inspired by these wonderful gentlemen one of the things that I experienced in the making of we were here in talking to older people and talking to younger people was that I Kept on hearing from younger people that they had lots of questions, but they either didn't know how to phrase them or didn't know if they were Appropriate questions to ask and because I have Holocaust history in my family that really resonated for me the idea that I Is it okay to ask a question or is it gonna cause too much pain for people? and at the same time older people didn't want to talk about things because they felt like nobody wants to hear and It's depressing and I sound like I'm living in the past So there's this there's this ridiculous gap and one of the things that I said to some of my younger friends and and continue to in relationship to this is You can always ask someone you can say There's questions that I'd be interested in asking you about your past Are you open to having a conversation with me? No one ever ever ever objects to being asked that and people can set their own boundaries But I think that the that the hesitance to express our curiosity Whatever vantage point we're coming from whatever age we're coming from is that we're all doing a disservice to ourselves and each other By not engaging in conversations because we don't know quite how to have them So that's part of why I was so glad that Alex was having these conversations with peers in the process of Editing this piece. I actually would like to open this up to two other people who are here Loretta Molitor was a sound person on this shoot and Chris Tipton King was a camera assistant on this day If either of you want to Say anything about what you experience. I'm in no obligation, but if there's anything that either of you would like to say about being Chris do you want to? You don't have to it's okay Chris has just made a wonderful YouTube series about prep You just I have a lot of probably the same, you know, Alex and I have never met But we kind of met indirectly because he's editing the footage that I shot But it was it was interesting for me to hear about, you know, what sex was like before grinder Because you know, I have those questions too and it's not something you just There's there's not a lot of spaces in which generations come into contact You know, I think a lot of my Generations knee jerk reaction, which I'm now seeing is totally inappropriate To older persons approaching us as they thinking they want something sexual out of us and then being grossed out by it and There's not a lot in the in gay community There's not a lot of spaces where there is intergenerational contact that you know Everything in gay culture is loaded with sex and so it would be nice if there were spaces like this one Where we could have these conversations without them being loaded with other, you know loaded down with other expectations So I'm I'm grateful for David for for facilitating this and I wish that there was more of it Do you remember what you were feeling or thinking while you were sitting by the camera listening to all of this stuff I mean was it was it a con was it a kind of Environment and information that you had not really been in a position to engage with before You know, what was what was surprising to me actually was you know, I anticipated Gay older stories a lot of what you do here because I had seen your other film And if you guys have not seen David's other film we were here It is it was it's an eye-opening piece about the ace crisis and it answers a lot of the questions that Alex was bringing up But I expected to hear about how terrible being gay was in that time Like how you know how much facing discrimination and being raided by the police and on and on and on and actually get a lot of like great upbeat stories about how wonderful it was, you know, even though it was underground you had to maintain this double life, but There was also a lot of joy in his experience and that was not something that I expected And I thought was refreshing to hear And just letting you know that you're sitting next to a movie star Paul chin who's one of my other elders who I've interviewed and Can't wait to see it Hi Paul I shot Paul remember. Oh, that's right. Of course you shot Paul. I was there This is part of what happens as you get older Loretta, did you have any thoughts from having been there at the at the shoot over there? Loretta did all of the audio on we were here also and also has worked with me on films going way way way back and as as part of we were here that was such an intense experience for me because And it was cathartic and healing going and it was but it was so intense around AIDS and all that went with it This was refreshing to have another three-dimensional Story and I always have to check my own internal questions as we go along but No, it was refreshing and and I enjoyed it and I've I was able to do I Also did coming out under fire where we in Arthur dong interviewed we interviewed World War two vets So it's interesting to get the breath, you know in that window of time I hadn't you know the Vietnam period and what in Just that kind of compartmentalization in a hearing. I'm sure other people had different experiences, but It seems to be the common the common one for that but It was interesting to hear all of that as well and also I've also always I've seen I've been around Frameline forever and Bob's involvement and seen him forever there And I I always I didn't know him though So I always perceived him as a pretty straight-laced guy and so and it kind of buttoned down And so it was interesting to hear of the more three-dimensional Parts so thanks I Actually was surprised by some of that as well And I know Bob Bob blames me for the fact that there's sex in this piece But I think Alex can confirm Bob brought it up very willingly in the conversations That was not manipulated and there's a lot on the cutting floor This might be a place to give you the time so One of the things Loretta that you just brought up was the Vietnam thing in the process of trying to to find a Specific narrative storyline that I'm gonna stick with to make these things work, which is specifically about the journey With two guys I really Deviated off of that path because there were significant pieces that I felt were really necessary and with Bob It was Vietnam and with Daniel Maloney who the piece is showing next week who's African-American Obviously race had to be a significant piece of the conversation too. So that's also been an interesting Both interviewing and editing balance to figure out okay, where do we Start veering off The the main line and how does it reintegrate as we go on I'm getting a little bit of waving that we're getting close to being finished But yeah, I've been told to give the time check. We have to actually be out of the building The eight o'clock cutoff time is when the building is empty. So I think we need to wrap it up So should I just say thank you please Alex. Thank you Bob Thank you all