 Hello everyone, welcome again to Conversations with Tyler. Today, I am very pleased to be chatting with Edwidge Dantika, the Famed Asian American author, also winner of a MacArthur genius fellow, Chip and Edwidge. Thank you for coming on the show. Oh, thank you so much for having me. I have so many questions. Let's start with one about you. Now you moved to the United States from Haiti, I believe, when you were 12. How is it you have learned so much about Haitian history since you didn't do most of your schooling in Haiti? Well, I often say that, you know, and my parents used to say it as well that I left Haiti, but Haiti didn't leave me. And 12 is, I think, young enough to transition somewhat easily, but also to have formed so many memories and to have actually had a, you know, I had actually had a big chunk of like primary education in Haiti, and having learned both oral history and written history. So I brought a lot of that with me to the US and enough that I was curious when I got here to find out more from the side of things. So I think it was part and part of love for Haiti that continued and also a curiosity about history in general, but Haitian history in particular. Now there's a shift, I think, in Haitian cultural history. If you think of the 1960s or 70s, Haitian cultural history is centered in Haiti. So you have Mick Jagger, Jacqueline Kennedy, and as they go to Port-au-Prince, Petionville, they buy paintings, they bring them back. Everything is very Haitian centered. And that seems to end in the 1980s. Why did that happen? Well, yeah, there was a time, even in the, you know, in the 50s where you had cruise ships going to Haiti, which I've always found somewhat interesting because all that time that you had that, you know, the tourism, the sort of that high level of tourism was still doing the dictatorship and so people were going at that time anyway, the folks you mentioned and others. And then in the 1980s, during the AIDS epidemic, you know, the pandemic of AIDS, then Haiti was designated as by the CDC as patients were labeled a high risk group for AIDS. And we were the only ones designated by nationality. It was patients, homophiliacs, herring addicts, and homosexuals. And so that certainly, that came out of some cases of people who had contracted AIDS and who came to a hospital here in Miami and were reported to the CDC. And so that killed really that designation killed the tourism industry in Haiti. It was later, you know, after much, you know, demonstrations after a lot of research, it was corrected. But it really killed whatever tourism industry. There was in Haiti, which was already kind of a strange kind of tourism anyway, because, you know, people felt like happy to go at a time of, you know, very strict dictatorship that there was always already something a little strange about that. But, but whatever tourism industry there was was destroyed by the AIDS epidemic. But if you think of Haitian culture today, is it correct to think that the Haitian diaspora is now Haitian culture. So if you think of Haitian painting, well, there's Duval Carrier. But he's lived in Puerto Rico and France in Florida. You are the leading Haitian writer, if one were going to call you that. Sean from Haiti, but now mostly in North America Layla Makala, somewhat even called Basquiat a Haitian artist. I mean, is that now outside of Haiti, what Haitian culture is. Well, I think, I think that would be, that would be incorrect to say because there is still such a, there is a great vibrant culture inside Haiti, and they're wonderful writers inside Haiti as well there's wonderful visual artists musicians. So I think if you think of it like any other diaspora, you know, and there's sort of, we're going to be like if you're in North America, or if you're out, you know, there's some mechanisms that make that, you know, our work more visible. My work is in English. So naturally, people have more access to it, like more easily. But there's a really strong and vibrant culture inside Haiti as well, that people like us, you know, we feel fed by, you know, that we feel is still, still important to us, you know, as, as readers, you know, I'm a writer, but I'm also a reader. I'm going to, you know, I appreciate art. I'm, you know, I'm on the, on the Council of the Sancho-Darren Haiti of an esteemed institution that goes back, you know, several decades now. So there is, there's still that culture and it's, it's really a powerful statement, I think, to, to Haitians and Haitian culture, because there's so many obstacles all the time in the way of artists in Haiti, but they, you know, they still are thriving and are very, really wonderful express what's happening very powerfully through their work. Do you think the Haitian diaspora is culturally stable, or do you think it will in essence be absorbed and assimilated into more narrowly Afro-American culture? Well, I think because the, the Haitian diaspora has, because there's often so much happening in Haiti, let's say, that Thai, you know, what we would call that long tweet, you know, the umbilical cord is really married to Haiti. And even over several generations, you know, the Haitians, who I know, I don't want to speak for everybody, remain very connected to Haiti and want their children to know Haiti and want that connection through language, through food, through music. So the diaspora, you know, no diaspora is fully stable. There's, of course, there's integration, there's assimilation, there's, that happens with every immigrant community over the generations, certainly for sure. But there's a certain tie to Haiti that the diaspora has, there's so many diaspora organizations, that neighborhood organizations where people support, you know, schools and the neighborhoods where they come from where they support organizations. And part of it, I think that tie, that connection is connected to the fact that there is, that Haiti is often in crisis, and people in the diaspora are often the first line responders, right? And after people in Haiti inside Haiti, you know, after Haitians in Haiti, Haitians in the diaspora, even within our families, if there's an illness, if there's, you know, and that sometimes extends to the larger community. So I think there will be over, you know, I definitely there's, there's integration, you know, I think, but I don't see, I think we have a diaspora that goes back, you know, further than people know, yet, yet that connection to Haiti throughout the generations has remained. And then with these artists that you mentioned, you know, Lila Makala is, you know, is, she's a wonderful artist born of Haitian parents, yet her music reflects that artist like Melissa Lavaux, you know, you mentioned Bastia, I think those, you know, that, that's also a kind of testament to the thread that runs to Haiti in the diaspora. Do you think there is in fact a natural language for Haitian literature. So if you think of the earlier Haitian classics that you've had a hand in translating, they were written in French. Your work, of course, is written in English. It's been slow to have been translated into Creole. Is it a fundamental fact about the future of Haitian literature that there's not a natural language there? Well, I mean, I, it's, it's such a topic of discussion often among critics of Haitian literature, what language is Haitian literature written in. And I, and I think now people, you know, like I have, I mean, most people, some people, I can't speak for everyone, but I think most people will who study Haitian literature will say that it's now a multi-language literature. There's literature in Creole, certainly, which I, it's probably closer to the language to, to, you know, to the primary language that most Haitians speak Creole. And that was slow to come. There was always like literature in Creole, but not as much as there is now. French was probably, you know, was literature, Haitian literature is mostly written in French. And like you said, we've worked on translating. I've worked with others in translating, for example, Masterpiece of Haitian Literature called Les Pasteurs Simon by Jacques-Stefan Alexie, which we translated with Carol Coates as In the Flicker of an Island. And I edited these two books, Haiti Noir and Haiti Noir 2, in which we translated many contemporary Haitian writers. So, and then we have writers now who are Haitian-American or Haitian-Canadian, like Braxton Gay and William Chan Si, who write directly in English. So it's a, it's a, it's a literature now that it's a kind of multi-language literature through my, you know, immigration and migration. And there we have writers who are writing in Chile in the Dominican Republic, in Spanish. And that's another growing layer of Haitian literature abroad. The Haitian literature, that's so far mostly produced a lot of poetry in Spanish. But there was a novel before by Haitian writer Namislin Giusec, who was, who had written one of the first novels about Haiti in Spanish. So it's a growing, I mean, it's, it's very, it's a linguistically interesting literature and to see all the, like, of the tentacles of it, if you will. What do you think of the, you might call them outsider novels about Haiti? So there's Graham Greene, there's Victor Hugo's Bug Jargal, right, which is about the Haitian Revolution. Are those cultural appropriation, are they bad novels? How do they strike you? Some are good, you know, some are bad. There's some, you know, there's some wonderful ones like Madison Smart Bell's trilogy. Also is rising, you know, in the Haitian Revolution. I think that those were wonderful. I mean, I, I, I, there's some really great ones. There's some that are a little cringy. But I wouldn't say to anybody that you can't write about, you know, again, you can't write about anything. I mean, I think, I think really writers should be able to write whatever they want. You should expect people to respond. And I think, you know, if you do it with nuance and care, that's, that's really important. I mean, they're, they're the temptation, you know, there's some tropes that often sometimes people just fall into when they're writing about Haiti, the zombie situation. You know, and they sometimes they approach it like it's never been done before. So I, I think, you know, they're, they're, if you do it with care, if you do it with nuance, I, I, you know, I'm open to, to reading it. Why does Haiti have the very best food in the Caribbean? Well, because we just do. I, you know, I'm a little, I'm perhaps biased, you know, and I, and I just have to say overall in the Caribbean, we have an amazing food, you know, there's wonderful food throughout the Caribbean. But I think Haitian food in particular, I love because we have great spices. And even, you know, if the food is a little fad in some cases, you have like the piqués, which is sort of a pickled cabbage carrots, like a spice. You know, that you sprinkle on top, you know, if for people who like meat, there's gruyo, which is pork, tasso goat. And, and there's stuff that even if you're vegan, you can like like my moulin, which is cornmeal, taspois. This I think it's a very rich and wonderful cuisine, but I am biased. And I think if people who have not had Haitian food, you should definitely, if you know anybody who's Haitian on January 1, go over their house for, when we can go over people's houses again, go for sous jus mou, which is a squash soup that we drink on the first of January to celebrate Haitian independence. Why is Haitian black mushroom rice so good. It's the mushroom. That's the key. And, and actually, you know, I've had, I live in Miami and that gives me a little more access to the juan juan. And so I've had to ship to friends throughout the throughout the states. And there's a key to it in terms of just how you like washing the mushroom and, and just the right they try to make a kind of like cube thing. But the cube thing is just not the same as just like the actual mushroom that you boil and you squeeze and, and if you ever like some people if you're from the north, like my friends from the north will put some cashews in that that's like another level with some cashews. The collective buses and Haiti the tap taps of course, why are they so beautifully painted. Why does that make economic sense. Well, the thing is, I mean it's people who like I and I've gone to Haiti with a lot of blunt, you know, foreigners. When there's a time when I used to go, we had a program for college students every summer. And, and I used to love like when when they land to see the tap taps. So it's just really, it's so it's so striking because it just feels like, Oh, I'm in this world full of art, you know, and it's like, they seem to be moving canvases. And what I love personally, most of our tap tap even after you get used to the to the visual feast that they are. I love the sayings on them. And, and I used to, and you would see like, you know, of course basketball stars from here. I mean, I think at some point like not too long ago, there was a Toni Morrison after she died was on a tap tap. It just, you know, people really soak what's happening around but the sayings are also great. So there's one of my favorite sayings on the tap tap was, like, you're just, you're talking and I'm working, like, and I felt like we're so powerful in terms of like, how, like how you respond to sort of people who talk badly about you, it's like, you know, you're talking I'm walking, you know, I'm working. And then things like that. And that's just really, and also the top tops would on the with the art sometimes like will have messages of gratitude, like, so a top tap might have a message of gratitude to the driver's mother, or to whoever like contributed a lot of them are, you know, to the Jesus to God to the Virgin and, and other religious figures but also to people in the, the person's life who contributed to the business and so it's really a, I always find them very beautiful to look at but also really wonderful moving like moving pieces of art. If I think of the Haitian arts today, I think of painting, possibly is having peaked between the 40s and the 70s. And the most interesting work today tends to be in voodoo sculpture. Why has that shift come about. And those are very large pieces they're like installations. They're hard to buy they're hard to transport. Well, I think I think that I think if you stayed there you would be reducing like your, your possible level of enjoyment right because what's most in the in that that early period you know the century dark period in the 40s, like the early period where, when the tourism that you were talking about, when people went to Haiti they, what they bought the most was what they call the like the knife primitive art which is a super colorful, really beautiful figures often market scenes and so that that's traveled very well. But there was always at that same time artists who are a little bit more adventurous artists who are like somewhat abstract. At the same time that they were these artists who are like this is what the tourists want that's what I'm going to produce right. And so, throughout the Caribbean, even if you went to other islands, you would see these paintings and, and then they became almost a little bit mass produced and they were, they're gorgeous I have, I have some, but the sculptures you're talking about I think we, those were started actually by, there was an, we used to call them I used to work for Jonathan Demi, the filmmaker, who was a huge collector of Haitian art and in the 20s, whenever we acquired the sculptures, you know, when we bought whichever I traveled the last to Haiti with him. And when he would buy he called them Leo toes, because the original artist was Leo toe, who, and you know, and when I was growing up in cemeteries and you didn't you we had metal flowers really because you would do like a wreath of metal with and it would be metal from oil drums, because that lasted longer right as opposed to like if you have a wreath of just like roses that dies quickly. And so Leo toe was a great he was in from Saint Mark, which is really the, the home of these sculptures. And, and now there's a whole industry in those sculptures, for sure. And, and I have, I have to say like they're very hard I agree to, they can't you can't just like put that in your suitcase and like you would the paintings that were people used to roll them. So, but they're, they're gorgeous. And now they're almost three dimensional, you know, like one Christmas we bought one that was like an activity scene that was just like to be D. But there are other, you know, there are a lot of wonderful young artists. Now that just some of them are moving away from the, the sort of the more primitive naive. There's, there's so many that whose names are escaping me but they're just wonderful artists worth exploring you mentioned Duval Cayet, who is outside of Haiti. But there are quite a few other young artists who were inside Haiti or doing who would use both that style of sculpture, but also do paintings who do installations or doing really, really exciting things. This is Fiona Zobop by Leo to by the way. It's by the fireplace. Oh, wow. Yeah. Why is it you think that black African Americans have not evolved as natural collectors of Haitian art. It seems to be much more than nerdy white guys who buy it, or well to do families. Oh, I know a lot of African Americans who collect Haitian art, you know, starting with, for example, of Ishmael Reed, who his wife had a gallery, you know, people like Danny Glover. So, and, and even, you know, friends that again, when we traveled with folks to Haiti, a lot of them were African American. And, oh, I know, there are quite a few African American collectors. I, I, you know, I don't know. I have a friend, Karen Fabius, who has a gallery in LA called Galie La Caille. And she has, you know, she has quite it's it's a wonderful gallery because it's in their home, her husband Pascal is an artist who's worked with the artists and ground we who do actually a really amazing urban sculptures with, you know, discarded like dolls and boards and sometimes skulls. They recently had a show here at mocha. And, and kind, for example, I think he's worked with a lot of African American collectors, including, you know, some in Hollywood but some and outside of also, you know, ordinary people who collect as well. I mean, there's, there's been, you know, like, I think also this marriage of African American art in some cases with Haitian art like Lori Malou Jones who went to Haiti, who, you know, who has spent time there, and kind of this this connection there with with some African American artists who, who are very aware of Haitian art as well. How much voodoo inspiration is there in your writing. Well, I, it's part of the, you know, of Haitian culture and it's, you know, and I try one of the things that when you're asking about the outside gaze of on on the Haitian literature. I think sometimes it's easy like to fall into that trap of like, oh, let me throw in some voodoo just to like, you know, exotify things. So I try to in my in my work I tried, you know, I treat as a world view as and, you know, some people might be practitioners, some people might not be, you know, and I also like to show a whole range of religious practices in my characters because not everybody is monolithic, you know, just in there, just as they're not in their behavior, they're not monolithic in their religious practice as well. So I try to show it as a whole range of religious practice. Like in breath eyes memory, for example, you know, the family certainly has, you know, they have their, their family law, they have, you know, they have things that they have their own practice, but they also, you know, their members of the family also practice other religions. So like, so to show the whole range of religious practices that there would be in a family like that some of them also, you know, Protestant, and, and, and sometimes that actually leads to some conflicts within some families so I'd like to show the whole of the nuance of all that your novel about the twins on twine isn't that just a voodoo novel. And I mean that as praise. Um, I mean, I, I didn't think of it that way I didn't start up. There's certainly, you know, there's certainly twin laws and and voodoo. And these girls are twins I'd always been fascinated by twins. But I, I, I don't think I, you know, that I think maybe that could be one interpretation but that wasn't. I mean it would be kind of. Yeah, I just, I was in sort of how I end, you know, I started out but I think that could be one interpretation. For me, I just think Marasa when I'm reading it right the whole myth of the twins and the rivalry and beginning the end struggle. Yeah, but I think if you is it, is it because they're Marasa because there are a lot of novels about twins as well but they're written by, you know, by people who are not from Haiti. Like I said, I think I, I, I don't object to that as an interpretation, but I don't think that's that's the only thing that it is as, you know, it's also about, you know, sisterhood and and illness and separation and so forth. But, but again, I, you know, I'm fine with that interpretation. In a world with so much mobile and social media, do you think radio was still of central importance for Haitian politics, as it had been in the past. I think it remains radio remains very important there. For example, there are a lot of, you know, cultural figures, even younger people in Haiti who emerged out of radio culture and now now have a position into more social media, you know, who do lives and Facebook and but who started out in radio radio certainly was very important when I was growing up and they weren't as many other outlets. But now I find, for example, you know, my mother-in-law who's 85, who lives with us, she's in Haiti most of the time, but she, in addition to, you know, the sometimes she'll watch a YouTube video about something that's happening in Haiti, but it will be, it's a YouTube video of someone in a radio station and she can watch on YouTube, someone can send the clip on WhatsApp. So I think radio now is part of a series of like many different ways that people get information. It remains like when we're in the country, if you don't have internet, it remains one way that you get news on the radio, you know, but it's also, people also, I find like even the older people in my life get a lot of news through their phones, through WhatsApp, you know, through also through YouTube clips and so if there's a constant loop of information now that radio is just one part of whereas, for example, when I was younger, it would be, it would just be, it was prime, it was the primary, if not the only source of information that we had. I think with the Haitian background, do you think you have a different perspective on the fake news debates of the United States, because Haiti it seems had a lot of fake news, well before social media. It was a kind of country of rumor in some ways, or not. So you're, you're thinking of this whole thing of maybe that expression, Tilly Joel, which is like the mouth that would go, I guess would be like Tilly. And that was a way that information is spread. I, I think, I don't know. I think every culture has that kind of sort of rumor mill, if you will, I don't think that that would be unique. That would be unique to Haitians. I think what we do, what I, what I recognize in the whole fake news debate is the sort of the gradual slide towards autocracy. Certainly, that is, I, I, that is, those of us who have lived through dictatorship and other moments like that, you recognize the slippery slope, the, you know, the sort of the demonization of media, the, you know, it's just sort of for silencing. It's, you know, the, the, the summer I was reading with my girls, we were reading Animal Farm, and, and it was just really striking, you know, so like the, the, all the parallels in terms of like what your eyes are seeing, you're not seeing. So all that is very familiar in terms of like that whole thing of, of, of diminishing the press, of course, at full autocracy, you know, at full, then you kind of destroy the people who are giving the news. But there are ways now with, with, you know, with the social media to, to do it. Why do you think Haitian political history has shown so much instability in terms of turnover and the number of rulers? Well, you know, I think Haiti's history started, we started as a country with everything against us, right there. The Haitian revolution was an impossibility to so many people. So these enslaved people fought the French, the British, the, you know, the Spanish and to make it, to start the first black republic, the first place in the world really when slave people overcame their masters and started this nation and a world where slavery was the norm. So Haiti was, you know, you know, shunned and, and they had, we had to pay to the French for this independence until into the next century. And so I think there was so much, you know, stacked against us. And then, you know, in the 19 early 1900s, you had the very long US occupation, and then the dictatorship. So I think the, it's just, we were set up in a way to fail because this, you know, was not meant to exist and slave people starting their own country was not meant to exist. It's kind of, you know, a lot of people have said it and historians and have said it, like, how dare you. And I think to this day, Haiti is being told how dare you and many instances when people, you know, when they've elected their own, when they've elected their leaders, when we've elected our leaders, then suddenly there's a coup or there's so I think the instability is not fully the fault of, of, of, of Haitians. I mean, we've had our part where people who have, you know, who sort of have decided to turn against their own. But this, but it's also something that has been set up to, you know, to fail. I think the United States get most wrong and it's 1915 to 1934 occupation of Haiti, being there. Sure, but this better and worse occupations right. Oh, I don't, I don't think the people who have been occupied anywhere would ever say that they are like what a great occupation. I would say Barbados may have gone better than say some other countries in the Caribbean. It's occupation. Um, I would ask, I, you know, I would, I would ask the Barbados, I mean, I think you mean Grenada or well, Grenada also. Yeah. I say they're better than Suriname. The Dutch were more extractive in Suriname than the British were in Barbados. I would ask them. I don't, I don't know. I would ask, I would not speak for them. I think, I think people always want to be in charge of their fate. And the people who come often, you know, I can only, from what I know of the US occupation, it wasn't. And, and, you know, the writers at that time wrote about it, you know, they were like African American scholars who are living the moment who visited who, who, who wrote about it, because it was meant to keep. It was meant for influence in the region. And, you know, and there's one of the heads, I think it's Butler, his name was who wrote about who had a mea culpa many years later who was in charge of not just the occupation of Haiti but also when at that time where there was a common occupation of Haiti in the DR where he said, you know, we were there for the, for city core, we were there for money, like he, that was his mea culpa he was like you. And so, and for example, you know, people there's the example of, and, you know, you've talked about Haitian art with Philo, Philo Meo Ben, who was a Haitian artist from the north has a very famous painting about Shalma Speerad, who was a leader of the Kakos, who fought against the occupation, who was murdered and attached to a door for, you know, as a kind of frightening and, and there were some horror stories and massacres doing the, the occupation and what was left, I mean the was left behind after the occupation, I think both in Haiti and the Dominican Republic was this military structure, right, that went through the generations. And the Dominican Republic side, it became to Rio, who then carried out this 1937 massacre of Haitians. And then on our side went all the way through down through the, the army that the, that ended up in that dictatorship and, and there was also sort of a deeper layering of sort of just basically moving Jim Crow to these islands because then they had to, for the comfort of these people, they had to kind of create these clubs, these sort of to separate people who are light versus people who are dark in terms of how they're interacted with them. So, you know, it's, it's, it's not fun. In retrospect, do you think the US restoration of our steed in 1994 was a mistake. Was it more colonialism, or was it the best thing that somehow had to be done. Well, I think that was a very difficult moment at that time. I, and I, and there was those generals. And that moment had, you know, during that, that coup d'etat, thousands and thousands of people had been killed. At that time I worked, I was working on a film called Tombele, and we were interviewing many people who had been victimized by the, doing the, the coup d'etat. And one of them was an incredibly brave woman named Alain Belance, who had survived and being really butchered and had lost her arm and other people. So, I think, I think at that time, I mean, the, you know, prison I've seen was part of that decision and he wanted, he wanted to return at that time, I guess, that was the right thing to do because people were really in the generals, they were ready to stay and, and people were dying. And so, you know, I, looking back, I, you know, I think that, that probably was a really, that was the decision that was made in First United States and he, he returned. If you were Minister of Education in Haiti, and had a fair amount of latitude, what would you do? Um, I would, you know, I, I would give the job to, to a woman I know who runs an organization called CYT, and her name is Nejin, and Nejin works with schools, actually she works with educators. Um, I would get people, I, if I were Minister, I, first of all, I would make sure people who are better qualified than me were Minister of Education. But I would, one thing I think would be important to actually make sure every single child is educated and to make sure that Creole is part of the education. It's, it's like, that there is education in Creole, because often children just jump into school in French, and it's, and there's a lot of rote memorization. So, I would, I would just, that would be an important thing, I think, to make sure every child has access to education, because in Haiti, something like a parent's 40, something like 40%, of a parent's income is spent on education, and often not the, you know, the children are not getting the best education, because they're to rote memorization, and, and, but what I know is, there's such a love for education in Haiti that parents really, really sacrifice a great deal to have their children educated that, that every child, of course, deserves an education so I would, I think I would love for every child to have that opportunity. I think that would be the most important thing to have like a good education that could serve them and, and, and help them to function and grow in their, in their country. As a Haitian American, how do you feel your perspective on Black Lives Matter might be different from that of many Black Americans? It's not different, I think, I believe that Black Lives Matter, of course, and, and I think maybe as a, you know, as a Haitian American with the history that I've just outlined to you, you know, with having come out of a culture of revolution, you know, in the constant fight that Haitians have always had, we can certainly identify with that, absolutely. And one thing that's been really wonderful to see with this generation is that as Black immigrants, we can, we, you know, there's no separation, I think, maybe in previous generations, you know, there was that feeling that, oh, this is not my problem. But, you know, in the demonstrations, you see Haitian flags, you see Dominican flags, you see, you know, people from the continent, and I think because we realize that this affects all of us, you know, and it's, it's my nephew, it's my, you know, the, my African American friends that I grew up with, their children, my children, it's, it's a, it's a common, it's certainly a common struggle. And certainly, you know, if that cop is not going to be asking you which country you're from, you know, when, when doing these types of encounters. Now, in all of these conversations, there's a segment where I present to the guest my favorite Haitian proverbs, and he or she reacts, are you ready for a few. All right, so you have you, you've been sharing Haitian proverbs with your guests. Here's one, after the dance, the drum is heavy. Oh my God. What does that mean to you? It means that there are consequences to everything, like even, like, even the most joyful thing, right, like, you have to be prepared for the consequences. Of, of things that you've done, you know, and it's something that, you know, my, like, if you, my mom used to say quite a bit too, like, if you have just had a really big celebration, or if you, you waited too late to do your homework, because you're having a good time watching a program, you're like, she's like, after the dance, the drum is heavy. So there's always, it's kind of like the morning after hangover situation, and the most joyful outcome, but that, but really that there are consequences to everything. Here's another one. It is the owner of the body who looks out for the body. Oh, this one, you will not believe how much we hear that these days. And it's something that we say a lot now in the coronavirus era. And you hear it on the radio, you hear it, you know, these people say it when they talk to their neighbors, that means that really, you are the best person to take care of yourself. Like, so, like, if you want people, if you're saying where your mask when you go out doing the corona virus era, wash your hands, it's like, like the best, the most qualified person to take care of you is you. So it's not the doctor, it's not, you know, they're a loved one. It's the owner of the body who takes care of the body. So it's like, watch out for yourself. It's very good advice these days. When they want to kill a dog, they say it's crazy. Yep. That's that the dehumanization. You know, just those, like, if you want to, what you do, it's, I guess, that's fake news. It's like, it's connected to the fake news, right? If you want to diminish or slight someone, you just, you call them names. So that's, that's, that's also a timely one, I think. How about this one, the Constitution is paper, the bayonet is steel. Yes. Again, back to our conversation about, you know, dictatorship in a way, I think, I believe that one was often cited by one of the generals actually doing the 90s doing that, that, that coup d'etat. It might have been even before, but it was, I think it speaks to the fragility of documents, right, like the Constitution. I think yesterday was Constitution Day in the US. So that might also apply here, right, that if it's, it's that whole thing with freedom, right, is freedom is something that is, is always, like, we have to always keep watching out if that doesn't slip away, right, because sometimes we think the, like, these documents or these rules or, you know, are just set in stone. And, and I remember, I think this, this general who kept saying this saying was saying, well, you know, I have the weapons and we can all, like, with weapons, you know, paper, it's kind of paper, paper rock scissors, and which is, which is stronger. When the Mapu tree dies, goats would eat its leaves. Yes. This one I think is about humility, because we, you know, we have this expression that we say when someone has died who has contributed a great deal to, to our culture to the we say that a mapu has fallen in a mapu is a self cotton tree. It's a kind of sacred tree. And it's also a big tree that that's sort of that lasts forever. And so it's a, it's a regal, it's just a, it's an institution a mapu. And so what this one is saying that even, you know, the, it's actually the goat is a kind of meager creature compared to a mapu. And there's no way a goat would actually be able to access the leaves to a mapu, but when it dies, it falls and then it's just saying that we're all, I think it's, I've always heard that proverb as a way of encouraging humility that we're sort of all vulnerable to all our leaves are vulnerable to the goat, if you will. One more proverb beyond the mountain is another mountain. That's a very famous one. Yes. And I actually use that a lot myself, you know, I have a neighbor, one of my neighbors just passed away. And she used to use that proverb a lot. And so I think it means that no matter what we can see there's more. I think it's, it's, but there's more to everything we can actually send this more to everything than what we see. It also speaks to the physical layout of Haiti, because it's a very mountainous place, you know, it, and the arrow are called it it, it actually means land of the mountains. And so, and it's physically true, like if you're traveling across Haiti, literally, there's always a mountain behind the physically behind the mountain. But in a kind of spiritual sense, it also means that there's, there's, there's always more, you know, and, and you know, this this there's this mountain connected saying that I love, you know, which it says, I've never met two mountains, but perhaps you and I, we can meet again. Have you ever been to West Africa? I have not. I have only been to South Africa. And actually this year, we were hoping to to make a trip to different countries in Africa, but we're obviously not able to but that is, I often feel like, you know, I'm 51 now I feel like I should have already made it but it's definitely it's something that I've wanted to do with my with my family with my girls, and, and that hopefully we'll get all to do together. What is special about shock meld and Haiti. Jackman is one thing. There's a wonderful novel by a great patient writer in Haiti Pascals, Adriana in in all my dreams, which was recently translated by kind of my Glover. And that novel will tell you everything you want to know about Jackmail it's sort of a, it's a it's a beautiful place and it's physically like location. It's got both the mountains in the sea. It's got a wonderful waterfall called bassin blue. It's a gorgeous place that it, and after the dance, the book that I wrote is about carnival and Jackman, and it has a spectacular carnival as well. And there's some wonderful artists who live there actually. Who I write about in after the dance one of them will not lose who who still lives there next to a beautiful mountain. Now in your own life. How did you manage to be such a prodigy. So you come to the US you're 12, you grew up speaking Creole right by the time you're 14, you're writing for something called new youth connections perfectly fluently. And then your first book is published as an undergraduate. So what accounts for this. What's your own story about the beginnings of your own success. My first book actually was published when I was 24 that's still that's still early, but I loved writing, I love stories, and I loved writing and for me it was always fun. And when I was doing other things I was, you know, studying at school but I love to write. And so, you know that that saying that people say, it's, if you love what you do you've never worked a day in your life. I, I, for me that was just really I, I wanted to write and it started with new connections that journal that I started writing for when I was 14 and went through all my books to this day. I never saw myself so much as I mean I knew that my book was published early and and a lot was made up that I think as when you publish when you're young, but for me it was just always a joy was a something I love doing and I always felt like really blessed to be able to do it and I still feel that way to today. What's your most productive or most unusual work habit. Working at night and at the older I'm getting the harder it is to actually do to stay up all night but I find that writing at night is my is really my most productive time, like because somehow at night you just feel like everybody's, you know, safe in bed that I'm responsible for. And there's not too many distractions the internet is always there but it's, it's, it's just easier to imagine a whole other universe at night so that's, I feel that that's when I'm most productive. And being a Haitian American writer, what criticisms do you feel you get from Haitians, is there any tension there. I, I think there's always attentions, but not so much because of the people who read me I think I think it's the same when you come when you and I have friends who from other groups it's the same. So you're, you seem to be plucked out of your group, and people think like you consider yourself a representative I've never considered myself a representative for Haitians all Haitians I don't think I speak for all Haitians. Often in the, you know, when you're spoken about in the press, like people put you as a kind of sociologist as a kind of expert on Haiti, when, when I started pretty young and I really was like I just want to tell this story I want to tell that story. And then I started to realize that people were at times over generalizing my stories right like that they would say oh this character in your book does that. And that's what all Haitians do. So, of course, my some of my compatriots didn't like that because they would say, you know people would literally say to me like, oh that person read your book and said that, like I think that's my life too. So I think, and that happens I think with the work of writers of color a lot, you know, for example, Alice Walker that people say oh because she writes this character then she hates black man know because you know that for me they were saying oh because you wrote about this girl whose family really wanted to be a virgin that means like, you know everybody who's Haitian has the same situation I think, I think the people in the mainstream culture sometimes generalized the what we write and so that leads to some tensions within, within, you know, within the culture. But I've had you know I've had some rebuke which is normal again, you know it's kind of like, you know there are circumstances to whatever you write, whatever you do, and, and I learned from that and, and I have to. I started out very young so I think over the years I've also had to learn and how to tell maybe more nuanced stories and how to be conscious of just how what I write will be read by by not just, you know by by different types of people. Now you've taught a history of Haitian cinema class at Ramapo College correct. What did you do in that. Actually, that this we taught that class when with I, it was Jonathan Demi and Haitian journalist John Dominique, and when John was in exile from Haiti. I often wanted to do actually a festival of Haitian cinema, and we use that class as a way of, first of all, finding the films that we would show and then to talk about them so we, there's a Haitian film court, for example, which is about a young girl who's a domestic servant in a home who Haitian singer T corn is featured in it with a, and, and so we would get that film we would show it and we'd talk about it and show who was more versed in Haitian cinema than either of us would speak on it. And then the students would film it so I hope all of this is in the archives at Ramapo College, but it was both a history of cinema class but also a class when which the students got an opportunity to to film what we were what we were doing and we were trying to figure what had been done in Haitian cinema before and, and soon after that, not because of us but there was a kind of explosion of of Haitian video cinema, you know, they were a lot of films made some of them wonderful some not so great but they're a couple of of keepers, you know that, like, if we were doing this project now, for example, we would have a lot more to work with, you know, with the films of La Lupec and, and other filmmakers and inside Haiti. I have two final questions. First, let's say our listeners are thinking of doing a trip to Haiti, by the way, I would recommend strongly, but what tip would you give them for how they can make it somehow manageable and safe, assuming of course they're not Haitian. I mean, a lot of people, you know, go to Haiti. And I think you have to go with an open mind, right. And I would say, try to get out of Port-au-Prince to go outside, go see the countryside. For example, in the, in the, the south, there's some wonderful grottoes or caves, there's some hikes, I think there's to not to try to stay in the urban space but also to go outside. There's, I think it's Palmer's guide to both Haiti and the Dominican Republic that has some wonderful tips in terms of where to go. And there's some also local traveling groups, like try to, try to find a, if you've never been to Haiti and you don't know anybody in Haiti to try to find a group to accompany you. But to go with an open mind, to try to learn and listen and certainly go outside the urban space into, you know, into the countryside, I would recommend that. And to close, finally, if you could give us one more Haitian proverb that is dear and important to you. Well, this one reminds me very much of Jonathan who, though he was not Haitian, we, I probably traveled with him more to Haiti than my own parents, when I worked for him. He always used to say, PTPT, Zwa Zou Fanish, little by little, the bird builds its nest. That was his favorite answer to, like, if you ask him how he was doing, he would say PTPT Zwa Zou Fanish. And unfortunately, as you know, he passed away not too long ago and and that was one of his favorites. And that remains very special to me for that reason, but also what the, what the proverb says, it's really, it's kind of like that, you know, like, but like every journey begins with one step. And so I feel like it's, it's good advice these days to PTPT Zwa Zou Fanish, little by little, the bird builds its nest. Edward Shantikov, thank you very much. It's been a pleasure. Thank you. Thank you for having me.