 Welcome to the Dr. Gundry podcast. Well he's often referred to as the Larry King of podcasting and he's interviewed professional athletes, best selling authors, successful businessmen and scientists. He's also been named by Forbes as one of the best relationship builders in the world people. On today's episode this master interviewer is about to get interviewed by yours truly. He's Jordan Harbinger, the host of one of the top podcasts, The Jordan Harbinger Show. And today we're going to discuss how you can bring more value to your friendships, feel confident in any social situation, and build relationships with high profile powerful people. Jordan, it's so great to have you on the show and nice to meet you. Yeah. Likewise. Thanks for having me on. I appreciate it. I see you've got a fancy setup, man. I'm just in front of a purple sheet of paper. You're not going to set my game up. I know. We've got to upgrade you immediately. Let me tell you how to do a podcast, Jordan. Oops. No. Yeah. Okay. Now this is fascinating. In 2006 you quit your job on Wall Street to start a podcast. I mean did you know what was coming on Wall Street or I mean back then nobody even knew what a podcast was. Yeah. Actually the reason that I started podcasting was because I was kind of the kid in high school that would say, oh no, we have a geometry test today. Give me your notes. And I'd study for 15 minutes during the lunch hour, go take the test, get B plus, A minus. Not super great, but passing and I thought this is fine. But then I got to college in law school and everyone was pretty smart. And so I thought, all right, I've got to outwork everyone. So I have to switch my competitive advantage from the guy who can do well on the test just because I'm lucky to the guy who can work hard enough to do well on the test when everybody else is smarter than he is or as smart in any case. And then I got to Wall Street as a lawyer and it was like everyone's very smart and everyone's working hard and I had no more competitive advantage. And so I started to, there was a partner there who was younger than all the other partners and he also was never in the office. And I thought, if I can figure out how to work from home, it'll take people long enough to, it'll take people too long or longer, I should say, to figure out that I don't belong here. And during that gap in time, maybe I'll figure out how to be a lawyer and not get fired. Right? It was sort of like a survival strategy. So I asked this partner, how come he was never in the office? He must have been working from home. And he actually said, well, it's not that I'm working from home. I do, but I'm mostly generating business for the firm. You know, I go do jujitsu and play golf and I go to charity dinners and I generate clients, you know, I shmooze clients, get them to join the firm as clients and give us their business. And I said, okay, I need to figure this out. So I started to figure out networking, relationships and things like that. And I, my podcast started because I was actually teaching networking, then it turned into the dating thing. And now it's back to sort of me interviewing anybody I find interesting. But that was the reason that I started the show. And I was actually a law student when I started the first iteration of the Jordan Harbinger show, worked on Wall Street for a while. And to your question, 2007, 2008, I'd noticed that we just were not getting much work. And our partner said, Hey, look, some of our investment banks that we work with realize that there's some problems in the liquidity of these loan pools because I was working in real estate finance, you know, subprime mortgages, part of the problem types, type thing. And then it was like, don't worry, though, in three months, we're going to have more work. It's just a blip in the market. Just keep showing up and reading and just, you know, hang out, do your thing, make sure your emails are zeroed out. And then it became really clear that we were not going to get work. And then our investment banking clients started to go out of business. And they said, okay, we might have to lay some of you off. If you want to go voluntarily, we'll give you an entire year salary and benefits or up until you find another job. And I said, I'll take a full year salary and benefits on a Wall Street job. And I'll just work on my podcast as my business and I'll try and find other jobs. But maybe I'll become a police officer or something, you know, I don't know. And I just started giving the podcast a shot. And then, you know, 14 years later or at this point, I guess 12 years later from that point, right, I'd already been doing the show for a while. Here we are. I'm just doing the show. That's it. Wow. OK. So how do you, you know, how do you go, you know, you start a podcast, you get on the serious exam or serious back then. So how do you become known for having, you know, personal relationships with, you know, all these famous celebrities, athletes and thought leaders of the world? How does that happen? So that's that's an interesting question because a lot of folks will say, oh, who do you hire to book guests for your show? And I go, oh, my God, I there's people that do that for a living. I've never I don't know anybody that does that. I mean, look, there are publicity companies and things like that. And I'm sure if you are, if I were Conan O'Brien, I would have a producer who's a showbooker and they would just make calls to people's agents and say, hey, get get to get Jerry Seinfeld for his new book on Conan O'Brien and they would set it up. That's not, as you know, now how that's not how it works with podcasts. Now with podcasting, you can call someone and say, hey, do you want to be on my podcast and you have to know how to reach that person? Because the agent says the what cast, how much are you paying? And you go, nothing, it's good publicity. And they go, I'm busy. I'm at a lunch. Bye. And, you know, you contact their publicist and the publicist says, the Jordan Harbinger show. Yeah, I've never heard of that. Do you work for Conan O'Brien or Jimmy Kimmel? Because if not, I got to go. I got stuff I got to do, right? And they hang up on you for me. This is the job of hosting the Jordan Harbinger show. Yes, I read the book for every guest. Yes, I prepare really hard for each of my interviews. But I will tell you right now, half the job, at least 40 to 60% of the job. Let me give myself a little window here is, hey, that person seems interesting. Let me track him down. OK, I sent him a DM on Twitter and Instagram. OK, they didn't answer that. Let me send him an email. Oh, that email bounced. Let me find their agent and call and try to talk them into it. OK, that didn't work. Let me tweet at their friend and see if their friend will forward the, you know, Twitter message to so and so and I find myself going on LinkedIn and saying, OK, all right, who am I connected with? Dr. Gundry. OK, Dr. Gundry, he seems to be friends with this person. Let me see if Dr. Gundry will introduce me to that guy because he had a good time on the Jordan Harbinger show. And then, you know, I'm doing that. And that that's not like a quick that's not me telling my assistant, hey, go get this, go get Kobe Bryant for the Jordan Harbinger show. That's just not how it works, you know. And so it's a lot of networking. It's a lot of trying and failing and sort of it's almost like a sales job. Right. I'm just constantly selling the idea that this is good. And then as you get a guest roster like mine that includes, you know, Malcolm Gladwell, Kobe Bryant, Howie Mandel, Dr. Gundry, then people go, oh, OK, I looked at the front page of your website. You have famous names and faces on there. OK, my client would probably be in good company being on there and he's got a new book. So what the hey, let's let's do it. You know, that's that's how it works. And then after you do a good job with somebody, what I've been doing is saying, hey, look, I, you know, you're probably going to write another book in two, three years. I'd love to have you back on. It was really hard to get in touch with you. And they'll usually say, hey, you know what? Here's my assistant's phone number and email. Just call her. You don't have to go through Harper Collins or Penguin Random House with my agents, you know, assistants, friends, cousin, Albuquerque. Just call, just call Janet and she'll make it happen next time. And you get kind of like white listed where a famous author might say, oh, yeah, Jordan, he's good. I'll go on his show any time. And then you kind of reach out to them and say, hey, aren't you buddies with Adam Grant? Aren't you buddies with Malcolm Gladwell? Aren't you buddies with General Michael Hayden? Can you forward this to him? And they'll say, yeah, sure. Okay. Cause it's, it's low risk, you know, it's kind of like a, I'm sure you've referred people to other doctors. You don't go, let me look in the yellow pages and find someone. You say, who's not going to kill my patient and probably, you know, not overbuild them, right? You have to build that trust. And I think that's the main message of networking and relationship development. A lot of people don't try to build relationships until they need them. And then it's too late, right? Because then it's like, hey, I haven't talked to you since medical school. Yeah. I want to buy my protein shakes. And you're just like, I'm sorry, I took your call. Click, right? You have to dig the well before you get thirsty. Um, you know, it sounds like Edison, uh, 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration is, is, is that one of the, one of the keys to success of successful people? Um, or, or is everybody just lucky? Yeah. I mean, of course the answer is it's mostly hard work, right? Because there is it, but here's the thing. There's always an element of luck. And I always like to highlight this because yes, everyone or most everyone that is highly successful works really hard. You and I were just talking about our mutual friend that runs, uh, one of the brands that you own, I believe, or helps run one of the brands that you own. And that guy's a hard worker. I mean, I, I, I won't embarrass him, but like, I, I know he grew up with no money and he grew up not far from where he lives now, except I think his current garage is as big as the house where he grew up with two or three brothers, right? I mean, he is killing the game as we say, but there is also an element of luck in everything that people do. And I won't, I won't speak of our mutual friend because I don't have a concrete example here. But there's a reason and, um, I think Bill Gates is a good example, right? The guy worked hard. He clearly has a lot of talent, probably or possibly a genius in many different areas, computers and seeing the future of electronics and the internet and everything. Although he did say that the internet was a fad. So I'll take that away from him. Uh, but he was, according to the book Outliers, which was by Malcolm Gladwell, who I've mentioned earlier, Bill Gates went to a school where he was near a computer. And I think when he was either in high school or early in college, he would just sneak into the computer lab at night and play with the thing for like seven hours. Meanwhile, everyone else had to sort of bring their computer punch cards in and they would get 20 minutes or 15 minutes a week on the computer. And he'd get, he'd get a year's worth of computer time in two days. And so that was the element of luck that was there. Now he seized the opportunity, but anybody who's really, really successful, we do other people a disservice when we don't include the amount of luck that we have. And a lot of people don't want to do that. They resent it because it makes, it makes us think that it makes us feel like we didn't work for what we have. But I think anybody who's being intellectually honest, myself included, I'm sure you're in this camp, you know how hard you've worked. You graduated from medical school. You invented all these great supplements. You market them really, really, really well. You take care of your customers, but there's an element of luck in that you had the ability to go to medical school and you didn't get deathly ill during one of your study courses. And then you had a great residency maybe and a great mentor here. And then you ran into our mutual friend and the brand exploded. I mean, these are things that, yes, you worked the harder you work, the luckier you get, but there's still an element of luck. And I always highlight this because I don't want people to think that, that if they're working hard, that's all it takes. And I also don't want people to feel bad because there are a lot of people that work very hard that are not lucky. And I think we all know a few of those too. No, I think that's very true. I can, I've given lectures. There was an old song by a writer for Glenn Campbell was I wouldn't be here if I hadn't been there. And it's it's the events of luck in your life. Yeah, you got to work hard. There's no doubt about it, but it's these lucky breaks that you look back and go, wow, you know, if I if I hadn't been in this room at that time and, you know, stumbled on this guy just as an example, or I I got a prestigious fellowship at the National Institutes of Health by luck by talking to someone who I barely knew and said, wow, you know, how'd you do this? Oh, I went to the NIH. Well, how do you do that? Well, you call this guy and you, you know, you cold call him and wow. He said, oh, I got an opening. It just happened. So right, right. And like a lot of folks won't really admit this because we don't connect the dots. And also it sort of hurts our ego to think like, look, I'll give myself as an example. So I don't embarrass anyone other than myself. When I started my podcast, it was because I was giving talks that were not lectures, but like small courses and people kept asking the same questions. So I recorded the answers to all of those questions and I burned them to CDs. And as people would ask the questions, I would hand them a CD on their first day because it was sort of a rolling attendance thing. I'd say, OK, no questions on this day, go home, listen to these three hours of things next week when you come back in, you'll know all the basics. Then you can ask as many questions as you want. And then it was like, then there were more basic questions and more and more and more. And I started burning like three CDs and being like, listen to these nine hours of stuff. And I said, you know, if only there was a way where I could put these MP3 files on the internet. And my friend said, you know, I read a blog. There's a brand new thing that's just maybe a year old. It's called podcasting and people can download the files to iTunes or to their iPod. And I said, I want to figure out how to do that because I don't I'm carrying a pocket full of CDs. Each one's costing me three bucks. It takes me half an hour to burn it in my dorm room. It's annoying. And so I started podcasting and then I loved it, right? And that was minimum 10 years before anybody created courses about podcasting, created any sort of idea that you could make money podcasting. And I didn't make a cent podcasting directly for years, but I just kept doing it. And then people would hire me for consulting. And I'd say, this podcast thing is sort of working out. And now people hire me and they say, how do I grow my show? And I say, well, I can help you grow. But bear in mind that growth like paid money and ads and all these strategies I'm doing, it's like this chunk that's a significant chunk. But it's not it's the tip of the iceberg in many ways. The rest of the iceberg is underwater. But that water is time and that water that time water is anybody who's been podcasting for a while has heard of me because I've been in the game for so long that almost no one started before me. So anybody who's been podcasting for any significant length of time is like, yeah, I remember seeing that guy's show, the Jordan Harbinger show in iTunes for years and years and years and years. And I just never listened to it. So then they hear an ad and they go, all right, fine, I'll listen to your dang show already. So my ads do really well. But that's because I got a decade of branding. It's like, if you see a Nike ad and it's just a person sweating, you go, oh, yeah, I need new gym shoes. But if you just saw an ad for and it was somebody sweating, you'd go, what a stupid ad? And you wouldn't go to the Nike store and buy it. But the swoosh over somebody who's sweating, you just instantly know what it is. And you can't buy that. That has to do with time and consistency. And it's a lot like your products, too. Craig sent me a bunch of them. Our friend, our mutual friend sent me a bunch of them. And, you know, people send me supplements all the time and I throw them away because I say, what am I putting my body? I don't know what this is. But I was like, OK, it's sent to me by a friend who I've known for a long time. I'd heard your name before. We're on the same podcast network. So, you know, I feel like I'm not going to die, get poisoned by this and die. But I get supplements all the time and I go, I'm not putting this in my body. This is a new tropic. It's supposed to make me smarter. The last thing I want to do is put something that was made in China into my body because it's supposed to affect my brain. Pass. You know? So that that brand equity goes a long way. And I know people are listening and they go, I don't have a brand. I don't care about this. Your brand equity as a human is the trust in the reputation that you have by helping other people over a longer period of time or being able to support people over a longer period of time. Family, friends, it doesn't just apply to business. And that's the big lesson here because a lot of folks don't dig the well before they get thirsty. And then they come out and they go, all right, I wrote a book. Everyone support me. And people go, I don't really remember you. Thanks, though. Anyway, delete, you know, it's the reputation you build over time that is your sort of personal brand, even if you're not selling anything, even if you're not a dentist or a doctor, even if you just work at FedEx, you need to be aware of your reputation because that is your brand. So let's talk about you were apparently shy. And you now don't strike me as someone who is shy. Yeah. And building a brand, you obviously have to overcome shyness. Most comedians, for instance, are very shy. So how did you do that? You know, it's it's it's interesting and I flip flop on how this was done. But I think part of the reason I was shy was because I was very self aware and self conscious, self aware to the point of being self conscious as a kid. And that's pretty normal in middle school. And then in high school, you're supposed to sort of outgrow it, but I didn't. And then in college, you're definitely supposed to outgrow it. But I think I actually got worse. And now I tend to be very self aware, but I also just go, you can't please everyone. Certain people are going to think you're a knucklehead. There's not anything you can do about it. But ironically, what helped me the most was recording conversations, giving talks in front of groups of people because not because oh, you get used to it and your stage fright goes away. Actually, it's kind of the opposite. You become so aware that everyone is judging you. But there's nothing you can do about it. And so that loss or not loss because you never had control, that lack of control is somehow freeing, right? Like you sell tens of millions of dollars worth of the vital reds that you're drinking right now. If you're watching us on camera, right? You're you're you're selling a lot of that stuff. Some of some people are going to send it back and go, this tastes awful. I hate it. And you're going to go, OK, well, that's the one percent of people that just don't like the taste that we put in there. The other ninety nine, 98 percent of people, they love it. They're drinking it every day. You don't really focus on the one percent of people that complain and open it and drink 90 percent of it and then send the 10 percent back and say, I want a hundred percent. Those are troublemakers, right? And even if their intent was honest, focusing on them would drive you nuts. It would drive your business into the ground. So for me, I kind of realized there's always going to be a room with a heckler in it. Not every single room has a heckler in it, but once a year, someone's going to stand up and go, this is stupid and you're boring and and you're going to get email when you do a podcast that has 10 million downloads a month where someone says, you're full of yourself or, you know, take your head out of your, you know what? And I just go, hey, you know, what's wrong with this guy? And I'll write him back and say, are you OK? Is there something we can do? And if they just write back, no, and I don't like your fat head, then I'm not able to, I'm not able to change this person's mind, you know, and that was very freeing because that allowed me to kind of instead of keeping myself sort of reserved and thinking, OK, if I if I hide, then no one will judge me when you put yourself on stage literally or figuratively or both, people do judge you and then you realize, well, it doesn't really hurt that much when a stranger on the internet in Clearwater, Florida writes me and says, I don't like you. They don't know me. They're 20 years old. They've never done anything. Why do I care about their opinion? So that kind of freed me up. And you just realize that, like, your worst customer is not in their impression of you or your worst patient as a doctor or your worst client as a lawyer in their impression of you is irrelevant to who you are and the impact that you make and the business that you run. So you can't focus on them because making that choice to focus on them will drive you insane. So you make the choice to everybody that's still in business has made the choice to not focus on their harshest critics if they're not constructive. And I put that little asterisk by if they're not constructive because getting good feedback from people, like if someone you trust says, hey, man, you know, this does not taste good. You should really consider making this less sweet. Then you might say, huh, I've heard that like 50 times from my friends and family, maybe we should have a less sweet version of this. But if it's just a random stranger out of nowhere and it's just they, you know, I hate your fat head, like, you know, there's nothing you can do with that. And you make the choice to let it go. And that was very freeing for me. You know, it wasn't like a natural evolution for me to become unshy. I just stopped being able to control everyone's perception. So I stopped trying to control everyone's perception. We, you know, Lewis Howes talks about he was number one, he couldn't speak. And that wasn't his thing. And he was very shy and he actually went to Toast Masters and had to start talking. And now, of course, he's he's a rather impressive podcaster in his own right. You didn't have to go to Toast Masters. No, I went to Toast Masters and I was like, you know, a lot of Toast Masters at Michigan. I think I was the only native English speaker in the room. And so I thought, OK, I'll go here for a couple of times. And then I just found I wasn't getting a ton of great feedback. I did go and get a lot of speaking coaching after a few years of speaking. But you're right. Like I know Lewis and he was not. He was very much not a speaker. And now I think he speaks, but I still see that he doesn't really shine when he does. I think he's better in other areas. I think he maybe doesn't enjoy it. And that's fine. Not everybody has to be a dynamo on stage. There is a difference between being comfortable doing something and being great at something. And yeah, like learning how to attack a specific skill set by getting a good coach is something I recommend. You know, if you're if you are if you're not working out regularly, get a trainer. Somebody will keep you accountable. Make sure you're doing the movements right. Make sure you're not hurting yourself. Make sure you're not so sore every time that you hate it and you can't work out again for two weeks. You know, those getting coaching in any area is great, but getting coaching for being shy. It's sort of not really necessarily a thing. It's you kind of have to practice and you have to. You really do have to run and put yourself in situations that require you to get over shyness, I guess you would say. OK, you talk a lot about, you know, coaching and mentors. How how the heck? How does our listener find a mentor? I mean, do you walk up and say, hi, there, I'd like you to be my mentor. Yeah, I did a little cringe. Yeah, most people. So the mentor-mentee relationship is interesting because you can't really just walk up to someone and say, I'd like you to be my mentor because it doesn't mean anything. And also, it's a burden that you are placing on the shoulders of the person that you're approaching. So if some stranger comes up to me and says, well, you mentor me, I don't really know what that means. Does that mean they want me to teach them a bunch of strategy for free, which is consulting that normally is like requires a lot of effort on my part. Does it mean they want introductions from me? OK, which ones? Why? What are you going to do with them? Are you going to execute on them? So it puts the monkey on the back of the person that you're asking and you don't want to do that. In fact, it doesn't work. You know, I've been I can I can say every few months somebody says, will you mentor me? And I just say, what does that even mean? And they never have a real answer. Usually what a lot of those people mean, not always, but what a lot of those people mean is show me the direct path that I can take to be successful because I have no idea and I don't really want to figure it out for myself, which is a shame because I do recommend that people figure these things out for themselves. And I do think that you have to figure it out, frankly, for yourself. And it seems a little not always, but it's a little lazy and a little entitled to go and think that you're just going to get a mentor and that that mentor is going to guide you out of the goodness of their heart. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense. And of course, now you see a lot of very predatory internet marketers selling mentorship programs because people ask for it so much, they say, pay $10,000 and get in my inner circle and we will mentor you. And what they mean is I'll you can show up to my live events and on my zoom calls and I'll give you the equivalent of what you and I are talking about on this podcast right now, but it's not real mentorship. There's nobody really guiding you. They're just giving you information and there's a massive, massive difference. There are mentor mentee relationship is actually symbiotic in that maybe this is a sales guy that works for my organization and start selling, let's say, podcast ads and then says, hey, you know, I bet we could sell social media ads, but you have to get your social media presence up to snuff. And I say, yeah, I don't really know how to do that. And then he says, I'll handle it. I've got all these content creation ideas. Here's what my plan is, etc., etc. And then maybe they go off on their own after working with me for a few years and getting my program going and I go, wow, this person really killed it. Maybe they go off on their own and they say, hey, Jordan, I have a question for you. How do I hire? You know, you hired me. You hired really good people. How do I hire? And I say, oh, hey, good to hear from you. You know, what I look for is this, this, this and this. And then they say, hey, Jordan, you know, a few months later, so I hired these people, one of them is not working out. How do I let them go and keep the relationship? And I give them advice there. This person has already done a lot for me. Maybe they're even sending me clients. Maybe they're still selling ads for me on the side. Maybe they're still managing my social media, but they're also asking me questions and I'm giving them the value in return because we're in a close symbiotic relationship. They're not paying me, you know, I'm not, quote, unquote, their mentor, but I'm giving them specific advice in a very specific area. I think a lot of people have this sort of fantasy that an actual mentor exists because it seems like an easy route to just do everything somebody else did and become that person's protege. But anyway, in any case, any mentor-mentee relationship, let's look at the OG mentor-mentee, right? Some, some like Kung Fu School. The younger person who is the mentee, they're teaching all the dang classes for like 10 years and they work with the master and the master is there for some of that. But the mentee is the one who's saying, all right, everybody line up, I'm taking you through warm-ups, etc. They're working for the other person. Nowadays, people just want to cut a check and get mentorship. But what they're really getting is screwed out of their money. True. All right. So everybody talks about networking. And yeah, it's important to get out there and network, but that's easier said than done, particularly now during COVID. So, you know, what's your advice on all this? You can't get a mentor networking now. How do you do this now? This is challenging. So a lot of people mistakenly think that networking is something you do when you go to a cocktail party and you're being a schmoozer and you're hanging around and you're doing all this, you're doing all that. It's it's not really like that. Most networking is not necessarily even done in person, especially these days, as you know, most networking is actually done online or via phone or via text message. Sure, it's great to meet people in person if you can when you can. But if you go to a couple of events a year back when we could go to events, you know, you go to one or two conferences a year. You see people in your industry and then you go to another conference about a hobby that you have and you see people in that niche. That's where you see people and you reinforce relationships. But to be honest, most of the networking that I do, I have a couple of drills and people can sort of do these at home. Every day I grab my phone. I open my text messaging app. I go to the bottom of the text messaging app. And those are those old threads where it's like you haven't talked to John in a while. You haven't talked to Michael in a while. You haven't. There's two people whose numbers you didn't even save that you had lunch with at a conference last year. You should probably see how they're doing. So I call this drill Connect 4 because I open that text messaging app, go all the way to the bottom of the threads. That's where the the four I'll grab four sort of dormant threads and I will circle back and say, hey, Jordan Harbinger here. How are you? It's been a couple of years since we met at podcast movement 2020. I'm so looking forward to the next one. What's new with you? My new house is almost done. Here's a photo, you know, something along those lines. I use my name. I use their name so they know it's not a mass text. I say I say something personal in there because that's better than what's the newest business thing. And they're like, oh, who is this? Right. They're just going to sell me something. I tell them something personal. I do that four times a day and three or four of those people will respond within the next couple of days, usually right away. And we have a little brief, little chitchat via text, nothing major, but your top of mind with them, their top of mind with you. It sort of keeps the impression of your relationship going until you can do something more involved, such as introduce them to somebody else, usually via email, somebody that can help them with whatever they're working on. You know, so I try to make an email introduction to somebody at least a few times a week because that's where you really building your social capital and your referral currency is by connecting one person with another. And that is actually quite a great way to build social capital. You know, if I know that you need a website and my friend designs websites, I connect you to he's happy because he got a client. You're happy because you got a website. I'm not sitting around making free websites for people. Right. All I did was introduce you and that's a scalable way to connect and build a relationship with a lot of people that in the texting drill, you know, you'll be talking with hundreds of people every quarter. You'll know what they want and what they need what they're working on. You'll be able to introduce them to one another in ways that are beneficial and you build and maintain hundreds of relationships that way. I actually use software called connection fox dot com connection fox dot com. It's like you put in someone's name, phone number, email, whatever, and it'll tell you if you haven't spoken with that person in, let's say 90 days or six months. And then when you log in, it'll pop up and say you haven't talked with Craig in 90 days. You haven't talked with John in 90 days. You haven't talked with Dr. Gundry in six months. And so then I'll text or call or email that person, depending on their preference in mind. And that's a good way that I keep in touch with probably well over a thousand people in a way that allows me to help them. And it doesn't take, you know, three hours a day. It takes me maybe 90 minutes a week, if that. Great tip. All right. What the heck are covert contracts? Which you say are like poison for our relationships. Yeah. So covert contracts. This is an interesting kind of phenomenon that a lot of people have in marriage. They have it in dating and romantic relationships. But we also have it with our friends. A lot of times. So I'm a big fan of giving without the expectation of getting anything in return. Or I should say without the attachment of getting anything in return. You know, if I introduce people to one another or I help somebody find website, you know, website designer that they need, I'm not thinking, all right, you owe me one now, buddy. Keeping score poisons the well of your own relationships. Keeping score is toxic to the relationship. You know, if I drive someone, my friend to the airport and then I drive her to the airport again and then I drive her to the airport again and then I say, hey, can I can you house it for me and feed my cat for a week? And they go, you know what, I really don't like cats. They freak me out. And then I go, OK, no problem. But in my head, I'm thinking this arrogant entitled, you know what, I can't believe it. I drove her to the airport three times. She won't catch it. What a lazy, entitled, you know, sucker. I'm not going to drive her to the airport anymore. And then she says, hey, Jordan, will you drive me to the airport again a couple months later? And I say, no, I can't. And then she says, hey, you want to get dinner. And I'm like, no, you know, I'm all passive aggressive. She doesn't know what's going on. She's like, we were friends. And now he's just sort of giving me the cold shoulder. I kept score and I am now poisoning the well. So I've ruined that relationship. But in my head, of course, I think she ruined our relationship by not paying me back. She owes me. But that's not really what happened. What happened was I decided she owes me. It's a covert contract. She didn't know that I expected and required something in return. And nobody really wants friends like that. Nobody wants, hey, remember when I drove into the airport four times, you better cat sit for me, even though you don't like cats. I drove into the airport four times, you know, you owe me one. Nobody likes to be taught to like that. Maybe she thought we were even because every time I drive her home from the airport, she drives us. We drive to a place and get a meal and she pays. You know, maybe that's what she thought was even. So when I'm keeping score and I say, a lousy meal for four trips to the airport, that's not even. I'm the one ruining the relationship by keeping score. So covert contracts, we have them in many areas of our life. We have them with our husband or our wife. We have them with our friends. We have them with people at work, you know, I filled in for you on Saturday. You're not going to fill in for me on Thursday. I got to pick my kid up from daycare. What do you mean? I can't fill in for you. You know, we, we keep these covert contracts and we ruin our own relationships all the time by keeping these. So I always tell people, give freely, you know, always be giving A B G instead of A B C always be closing closing A B G always be giving. But you have to make sure that you are giving without the expectation of getting in return because the second you start to say, great, if I help this person enough, they'll owe me one. You're setting yourself up for disappointment and you're probably going to ruin your own relationship with that person. Wow. So what do you do with the person who you keep giving to and they continue to expect you to keep giving to them. And then there's nothing coming back. Right. So of course, there's going to be people that say, hey, you know, thanks for driving the airport. Now you're the person who drives me to the airport all the time. There's going to be people that maybe take advantage and you'll know if they take advantage because you'll feel it, you'll feel it, but two, they will never feel any sort of obligation to do anything for you. And that's different than a covert contract, right? Like if I'm driving Jane to the airport four times and then I say, hey, you know, let's go out to eat. I'm starving. And she says great. And then she lets me pick up the tab. I'm starting to see that maybe I'm just the person that pays for everything and drives Jane to the airport. But if there is a little give and take and Jane says, oh, let me get this one. Oh, and by the way, you know, I know that you broke up with your girlfriend and I have a friend who I think could be great. I want to introduce you guys, you know, that is, that is somebody who's not necessarily entitled. But if you find somebody who's just constantly asking you to drive her to the airport and letting you pick up the tab and then says, hey, can you walk my dog today? I'm really busy. Hey, I'm actually going on vacation with my boyfriend. Can you feed the dog every day as a favor to me? You know, and there's no money or exchange of value at all. Yeah, that person is probably taking advantage. Now, here's the way you can tell. You ask them to do something for you that's totally reasonable, right? You drive them to the airport four times and you say, hey, you know what? Can you drive me to the airport? And she says, oh, you know what? I'm super busy on Fridays. Every, you know, I can't. Okay. Well, what if we do it earlier before your dates? Well, no, because I'm getting ready and stuff. I don't, you know, Friday doesn't work for me. Maybe that's a legitimate excuse. But then when you say, now I'm going on vacation, can you check in on my cat every two days and make sure the water and the food is full? And she goes, oh, you know what? I really don't want to do that. You live too far, right? Now you realize this is a person who's never going to do anything for you. And they're just asking you for things as long as you'll put up with it. I'm not saying you have to test people. I don't think it's a great way to live. But if you get the feeling that you're being used, go ahead and ask them for something in return that's completely reasonable. And if they won't do it and they never will do it, you're being used. All right. Before we wrap up, since you are the king of podcasts and I strive for health in all aspects, give me something I can do today to improve the health of my podcast. Sure. I mean, look right now, you're doing great. You've got a great setup. Like I said, I'm sitting here with this stinking paper behind me. You know, I got to step my game up. I like the aesthetic of it. I like that you're prepared. I think that's great. You know, the best thing that I did in the beginning of my podcast was I went on a lot of other podcasts, right? I went on other people's podcasts all the time. It got me sharpened up as an interviewer. It got me sharpened up as a guest. It got me exposure to thousands and thousands of thousands, hundreds of thousands, probably of other people who are doing that. So I would encourage you to, you know, don't spend your life doing it, but definitely make kind of a system whereby maybe you go on someone else's podcast every couple of weeks or even more, if you can. And that will gradually build the listener base of your show to the point where you will be able to see the trend. And it's a consistency thing, right? It's not you go on one or two other shows and then, boom, your show blows out of the what blows up. What you need to do is go on a couple of shows, a few shows a month for the next few years. You know, you'll enjoy the process, hopefully, and you'll get a chance to expose people to your products and your podcast. And it's just a slow snowball effect. And that will pay off. Most people quit so they don't have the consistency to get to the point where they're really building a lot of momentum. But if you don't quit and you stay in the game, you know, you'll build a show. And I've seen that happen over and over and over again. So it does work. All right. Thanks for the advice. You're welcome. Jordan, it was great to have you on the show and to meet you. And I'm looking forward to being on yours, hint hint. So where can listeners learn about you? Sure. So I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter, Instagram. People can connect with me on LinkedIn as well. But of course, I would love it if people would listen to the Jordan Harbinger show. We have everyone on from health experts to athletes and authors like Kobe Bryant, Malcolm Gladwell. I had a mafia enforcer on the show recently and have a lot of brain scientists on the show. So it's quite a lot of variety. And I think people who like smart content will love the Jordan Harbinger show. So I hope people find that wherever wherever they get their podcasts. Very good. All right. So I look forward to talking to you again soon. You got it. Thank you very much for coming on. All right. It's time for our audience question. Richard Green on YouTube wants to know if there are certain foods to eat or avoid to help people with varicose veins. That is a very interesting question. Believe it or not, as a heart and vascular surgeon, we often are asked to treat varicose veins surgically. But one of the best supplements out there which has worked for a few of my patients is horse chestnut. And you can actually look for it. But here's the deal. Varicose veins are incredibly common in people who stand for a living. For instance, surgeons get varicose veins. Tellers get varicose veins. Hair dressers get varicose veins. People at the supermarket check out people get varicose veins and one of the things that's really, really important. Number one, get yourself some support hoses that either go up to your knee or beyond. Number two, and I talk about this in the energy paradox, get into the habit of fidgeting your legs while you're standing, while you're sitting. You probably can't see me, but I'm rolling my feet right now because your calf muscles are actually your heart muscles down in your legs that pump blood back to your heart. And the more you can utilize those calf muscles, the better you will be protected from developing varicose veins. Great question. OK, review of the week. This week's review comes from Warrior in the Garden on YouTube, who enjoyed my interview with Sawyer Jay and said, great interview, two of my favorite health stewards together. So much respect for the both of you. I love how your conclusions are all deeply rooted in research. Personally, I am rebuilding my health, turning my back on the predictions made based on my family's genetics, early cardiac death and severe autoimmune fallout. Your work is truly a blessing. Well, thank you very much, Warrior in the Garden. And, you know, I want to bring you well thought out information that's been researched by authorities who have put the work in. And I'm glad you appreciate all the hard work we put into bringing this to you. And as you know, I'm Dr. Gundry and I'm always looking out for you. We'll see you next week. Before you go, I just wanted to remind you that you can find the show on iTunes, Google Play, Stitcher or wherever you get your podcasts because I'm Dr. Gundry and I'm always looking out for you.