 Welcome everyone to our panel session today on Ospos in academia or open source program offices in academia. And I am delighted to be joined here today with four great panelists who are all here to share their personal experiences, first hand experiences of running Ospos or Ospo like institutions in various different academic institutions. And so before I go any further I just like to introduce myself. My name is Claire Dylan, and I am part time executive director in inner source Commons, but more importantly I'm also the organizer for the Ospo plus plus network which is a community or network for those who are interested in creating open source program offices in academia or government. And I'm here today with Saeed Choudhury from Johns Hopkins University, please wave as I say your name so everyone knows who's who here so welcome Saeed. And I'm he's also joined by Stephen Jacobs from Rochester Institute of Technology Hi Stephen, Stephanie Leege from the University of Santa Cruz, and john wheeling from Trinity College Dublin. Lovely to see you all here today. So first we're actually going to go to each of our panelists and hear a little bit about their open source program office in their institution, how it how it where the origins came from and what it actually is responsible for. So say perhaps I'll start with you would you like to give us a lowdown of what's happening in Johns Hopkins University. I'd be happy to do that. Thanks Claire. So I lead the open source programs office here at Johns Hopkins University. I am based in the libraries, and the Ospo is therefore within the libraries as well. And we made that decision for two reasons. One is we believe that one of the important functions of an Ospo is the curation of open source software so that aligns nicely with the mission of the library to curate digital content. The second is that the library is one of the organizations that serves all of the academic divisions within the university so we wanted to make it clear that we weren't favoring, or, or maybe, you know, disempowering any of the particular divisions. You'd be surprised who's producing open software within the university, for example, we have the music conservatory where there's a very thriving active open source effort and community as well. Not surprisingly, one of the fundamental assertions that we've made is that open source software is a primary research object. And therefore it needs to be treated the way we treat open access articles and open data from a, you know, theoretical perspective there are obviously some differences that that span those three types of research objects. And that has the benefit of activating other parts of the university, like the research administration office, the provost office, the technology transfer office and so on. So when I say the Ospo is based within the libraries, it is working very closely with other units throughout the university that care about research research administration, and the translation of that as well. So, in addition to the types of things you might see in a corporate Ospo at the operational level, providing tools, services, community management, so on, to help raise the overall capacity of open source production within the university. We like to think that we're developing a center of competency and then perhaps eventually even center of excellence. There is the important three elements of the university research education and translation so we are also focusing our open source efforts in those three areas so direct support for research not only as a research object but as an object supports the research. In the educational sphere, we have been working with Steven Wally at Microsoft on a course called semesters of code, which is expanding into other places this fall including Ireland. And then we look at translation, which is how do you take the research and education and translated outside the walls of the university. So that is one of the places where we're connected technology transfer. But I will say we've taken a much broader interpretation of a translation. And there's a very significant component of partnerships and social impact in some of the work that we're doing as well and maybe we can talk about that a little later in the panel. Thank you so much Said for that overview. So Steven will come to you now and Rochester Institute of Technology. Perhaps you can give us an overview of your experience with open source program offices. Sure. So, um, it came to creating it's it's open programs office and we don't call it an open source programs office because we don't want to exclude the various other members of the campus right in fact what we refer to is is within academia and we're running a summit on open work in academia September 7 through 9 this year. You know we have as site indicated right you know we have people in music people and art people and all kinds of different practices that aren't generally considered necessarily software centers and aren't just open sourcing, you know, we cover help with CC licensing with over data with open science with all the opens right which is why you're referring to his open work so that we're inclusive across the campus. We come to this with 14 years of experience in teaching undergraduate students. Open source and engagement with the industry around open source so we have individual courses a three course collection that. In the broad sense it's called an immersion each student on campus needs to take one immersion that involves general education courses so that they're working outside of their discipline. And we have a five course academic minor in open source and most of that work is focused on being a member of community making contributions so and so forth rather than code right it's about how to become a contributor in two years ago, well really four years ago or so at this point we heard about what side was spinning up and we decided to do the same in terms of doing some kind of open programs office on campus mine lives organizationally under the VP research, and with all the entities on campus when we expect an open programs office to work with the it s folks and the libraries, etc, etc. We also have a fellowship program we're supporting roughly 25 faculty in building open community around their projects. That is built on a model we've run for officially branded for about eight years but really much longer called Libre Corps which takes our cooperative education students our full time paid interns and has them working on humanitarian projects that are open source. Those efforts in the past and things like contract with UNICEF to support their venture teams, build essentially summer work programs and charter schools teaching them to build 3D hands with the enable group, and that turned into a full time program within the charter school work with so we do that kind of work. And so it was taking that kind of structure of working with projects we built externally to RIT and the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation funded us to bring that kind of work internal to our own faculty students and staff. That was brilliant and I'm hearing already that there's such a broad way in which you can actually interpret the responsibilities of an open source program office or an open program office in in academia, and what I'm loving hearing is as well this this idea of inclusivity and the diversity of the types of folks you have engaging with the program office as well. And so often people think about it just from a software developer perspective but it's wonderful to see this actually branching out and reaching so many more disciplines and we need more cross disciplinary innovation so that's all brilliant so Stephanie I'm going to come to you now so you see Santa Cruz, what's going on there. Well, hi Stephanie Luigi, I am at the assistant director of the Center for Research in open source software. And since January also the assistant director at our Ospo here at UC Santa Cruz and it's the first Ospo in the UC system, and one of the first at a public university. It really started because of our experiences with cross, which in and of itself is a research center. And that's, it's housed in the Baskin Engineering the Baskin School of Engineering at UC Santa Cruz. And we started were particularly my, the director across and the director of the Ospo Carlos Maltzan started it in 2015 and it was a way of bridging a gap, the gaps between research and open source software. And it was really modeled and this is kind of important for how we kind of our history with cross is what led us to the Ospo that we have now. So we modeled the cross after the activities and success of Sage Wild, who is was a PhD student at UC Santa Cruz who created the open source storage system set, while he was doing his dissertation as part of his dissertation. And once he got, you know, graduated had a startup around stuff and sold it to Red Hat, he came back to UCSC really wanting to set up a some sort of system some sort of infrastructure to allow other students to replicate what he did. And he was able to do a lot of his work because he had the resources to keep working on his project and that was kind of what our focus with cross was. So he gifted Carlos and UCSC $2 million to get cross started, and we created as an industry collaboration research center so I use CRC. And it was really successful what we worked with a lot with industry members. And we really saw that open source projects are really a powerful catalyst for industry engagement. And we also saw like leveraging open source communities to significantly increase the impact of university research and a lot of what I think what Sahid and Stephen were already talking about with that. But we also did start to realize that some difficulties of doing this as a research center, as opposed to a larger organization on campus. So we were really doing activities that just it makes sense for a research center to do. And we were lucky to find the Ospo plus plus folks you and all the rest, and really gave us an understanding of what we should be working towards which was creating an Ospo. And so in, you know, working with Ospo plus plus folks working with all the universities that already had Ospo's. And then, thanks to the Alfred peace own foundation we were able to start the pilot project starting in this last, this last January. Cross sits just sorry the Ospo sits, it's still in the basketball school of engineering, just like cross, but we really do envision that it will be in the Office of Research, ultimately, alongside research development and the tech transfer to those that are engaged with industry. And to say we've, I want to point out that we've actually had a lot of success working with those folks in over the last five years six years with cross and definitely they've been very supportive of the Ospo process or creating the Ospo. So that's been I think that's been something we can talk about a little bit to about having the champions that you find when you're creating your Ospo. Now our chief role at the moment is to really facilitate avenues to amplify research and research impact and leverage open source communities. But we also are really focusing on filling gaps that include like creating more opportunities for students to learn how to productively engage in open source and we're doing that through coursework, we have fellowships for postdocs and I will talk about that more during the panel discussions but we have postdoc fellowships that aim, aside from seeding communities or open source communities around open source projects, also teaching students how to productively engage and interact with open source. We also, you know, based on our success with cross we definitely focus on the promotion of industry engagement with academic research and open source ecosystems. And also really just figuring out and this is something I think that's key to what we're working on in the next six months is figuring out how to best assign value to open source in academia. And I think that that's something that's been missing, like understanding how how important open source is actually a value from a value perspective to to university research. And yeah, and that's it. I'm happy to talk about all other specific programs in the rest of the panel. Thank you Stephanie so you mentioned there as well, working with folks in the tech transfer office so I'm going to come to john wheeling next who has lots of experience in that in that area and I know john's open source program offices I think one of the first that has been in academia in Europe. So john do you want to give us a little overview of what's been happening with Trinity. Nice to meet you all. And thanks Claire for having me. I mean, it's interesting where I'm lucky that everybody else has spoken earlier so I understand where your positions and, you know, Saeed spoke in particular about, you know, research education and translation so as Claire said, we are also is definitely based within the translation side where I'm in the technology transfer office or knowledge transfer as we like to say rather not to exclude all the people in humanities side of research. I mean, like, I met Claire, two or three years ago on this topic, and I couldn't spell Ospo, and then when she introduced me to Saeed and I understood. Well, that's we've been kind of doing this for the last 10 years. I mean, I have, I also have to say this, by the way, I am a coder. So I think that gives me some validation when you come to open source for, I think it can be important thing to understand the culture. I did use open source as a coder. I think I brought that into Trinity 12 years ago when when we when I started working in technology transfer. But yeah, we have been doing a lot over the past. For example, we're very focused in our office and spinning out campus companies, the Irish focus in research and innovation is very much about creating economic impact through high tech deep tech spin outs. So, for example, 10 years ago we spun out a company called software radio systems which I had to convince the powers to that be to allow open sourcing of a major body of software radio that had been developed. But my argument was that there was like a new software radio already out there so we couldn't compete with this so we have to join join up and that company has done very well they've been around for 10 years they're employing 30 people. They're probably going to be acquired soon I suspect. But even other than that there is a gaze with students for example, we have a great dropout students which is always a good sign in our book in innovation but I know that can cause problems within universities but in computer science as you know dropouts can be very complex but there are two Ukrainian actually two Ukrainian brothers called the Zara brothers Zed or I and four or five years ago did a fork of Linux, which now is 18 million downloads it's called Zara and OS, and they're doing very well you know we, you know we don't we talk to the library about what they're doing we, we talked to computer science teaching what we're doing but at the moment we're driving it through our own actions and engaging industry a lot of the industry engagement that we do a lot of the big multi nationals now wants the research to be open sourced. It gets around all the licensing problems it gets all around all the confusion I know Claire when she was in Microsoft would have been familiar with that but the big, the big, the big the top 10 tech companies that's that's the way to work so that's been really fruitful for us to engage in that way. So what I'm hearing is that, again, a very broad set of responsibilities often tied to either the institution priorities, or in fact, where the idea comes from and the fact that that's where perhaps instantiated, but, but, you know, I suppose to contrast the work of an open source program office in academia it seemed to maybe what's happening in the corporate world it strikes me that not only are you all perhaps looking at you know what's happening within your university or academic institution, but but you're also looking at this educational aspect perhaps with an additional emphasis, because you're building the skills for the future there. And, but this idea of tech translation or technology translation or and is so such an important one and the industry engagement so what I'm going to ask for next is just to maybe have a think about, you know, trying to explain what's the kind of breakdown of the effort within your organization and what kind of skills are needed within a NASPO in an academic institution to do that work. And because sometimes just to see whether there are similarities or differences or to give people an idea about what's required to to actually make it work. And so maybe we're going up to the direction of this time john what do you think I think you know the whole thing about technology transfer knowledge transfer is it's all it's a people sport it's about engaging with people. And I think open source has been a very good way for us to build trust with researchers, because traditionally let's be honest. Technology transfer is quite a conservative business, and they would have had a quite a negative view about open source 10 years ago or maybe even still now let's be honest. You know a lot of them come from large sciences they're not familiar with software in itself and they just say why are you giving away from for free so I found it if we convince researchers and teachers that we're actually we understand it we see the business models behind the community models behind it. We see the societal impact of good open source software cove it has shown that with, you know, a lot of the apps the main cove it up developed in Ireland was all open source so it was transparent privacy issues are dealt with so huge advantages. I can give one example of one researcher that I've only I've been here 13 years. This researcher I know was really anti technology transfer, you know, he liked to open source, but he came to me eventually to ask a question about open source because he saw we had an open source and he was doing a real cool thing he was doing a python version, a scratch type version of Python, actually which is really cool but when he saw that I was actually open and supportive and that our office was saying yeah that's great. We support you we provide you with the tools and agreements that can work to engage with industry are to engage with society so you know but it's a time thing and it's a people team. And so what I'm hearing is that that kind of background knowledge of the of the subject matter so like understanding open source from a technical perspective to work with folks who may be coming from a technical background but adding in the knowledge about both the industry how it works and the eagles of how open source works are kind of key critical skills to make in that work. And yeah so so brilliant so Stephanie what would you like to add into that or to comment on in terms of the skills that might be part of your group there and cross. Right for our experience and what I think really interesting from how cross came about cross was built and how the Ospo has now come about is that we really have a total real mix of skills that have come into play. You know Carlos who's the director across and you know was hope one of the co founders of Seth. You know had a very strong obviously a very strong computer science technical background. I mean he's a you know, a professor here at UCSC. You know very much on the technical side a lot of our our fellows who are the ones that are the incubator fellows postdoc all computer science or in some part part of you know the engineering school. And then you have me come in and I'm like a social scientist who you know doesn't know Python from whatever you know I don't have a technical background and I have learned a lot over the last six years, but I came in with more of a community you know like a community building skills and and those type of activities that I had from my previous work in a completely different field, but it really helped that I understood one how academia works because I've always worked in academics in an academic setting. I know how do how researchers need to function and and then also how communities get built around research and I think that that was those are I think that both of those are important and having the technical skills to understand kind of the coding and the individuals working on the developers that you're working with, but also having the ability to create and sustain and maintain communities and knowing when you don't knowing who to look for when you need help on those is also really helpful because I didn't come in with an understanding specifically of open source communities, but that's something that I've gained and working with folks through Ospo plus through a lot of different groups. When it comes to the licensing and a lot of the other legal issues, we work with a great advisory board. And that is, I find really critical having a good advisory board and a good set of folks in the office of research. Our advisory board is made up of key people for like experts in open source, experts on both open source projects but also the legal aspects and entrepreneurship as well. And then our, you know, I don't feel like that are from our perspective the Ospo has to have all of the legal understanding in in house specifically in the Ospo. As long as you know you have your kind of champions in your office of research or you have a really good set of advisors that that I think we what I figured has been a really useful thing to have for our Ospo it's not that you actually have to have like the director assistant director has to be that you know, voice or knowledge having some understanding of it is of course important, but always knowing that you have someone like in the office of research are on your advisory board that you can talk to and under to get a good, a really good expert understanding is I think really critical. I mean that's such an important point I mean, like thinking about one of the principles of open source being collaboration, it just goes to show that you're actually making that work in action because you know, because you're working on the skills of collaboration and community building you're able to pull on those resources and contributions from all over the organization, which is, which is fantastic to hear. And also, I suppose promising for people to get started that they don't have to actually have baselines and all of these things because there's often people to help right so. And so, thank you, thanks for that. You don't have to be everything all the time. Yeah, exactly. And we know there's few enough people who are who are good enough and even the collaboration skills. So, thanks to that Stephanie Steven what about you. Who are you working with who's part of the organization, what kind of skills do they have. So I have a solid advisory board, you know, as Stephanie says the person who runs your Ospo and academia needs to be the kind of jackable trades that Stephanie kind of laid out right the, and it's especially key now. You know, not only in software for a long time. The open source community has understood, they may not have done a good job of it but they've understood how important community development outreach, all those soft skills all the organizational skills all the communication skills. And there seems to be a much larger shortfall there in open science that there's this you know, neither an open source nor an open science open scholarship of an academia whatever open you want to call it. Sticking a license in a folder and putting your stuff on it and having it out on a website somewhere does not improve your impact or your translation. You need this person who understands where all the parts fit in and has the ability to roll it X to call if they need to. Like, I have written code I know how to write code but I'm a filmmaker and a media critic by training and every all the other work that I've done has always been collaborative. The artists and programmers are often not by training collaborative. And so being able to teach them how to pull the parts together and how to do the outreach how to set up the infrastructure to support that outreach. And that's really what we've been doing with our, our fellows for the past two years and and our fellows projects run the gamut of computational astrophysics to sign language early child education for deaf children around the world to a database of Victorian autobiography called the Victorian autobiography information network or vein, which is my favorite project with my favorite acronym right so it spreads. It spreads across the gamut if you're in an organization that works within academia and not only there but in terms of understanding your licensing and who you're working with right at. We have this kind of spectrum of people we work with right you know if you're at Google, right, everybody is an employee, and in theory, everybody follows the policy, right, boom, and university staff, same thing but you have these other two use cases right you have faculty, which kind of are but kind of aren't employees in the same way that staff are, they are mandated to distribute their stuff in some ways, but the university and often they would like the entrepreneurial opportunity as well so kind of gray area you have to work with them on and then at our university, unless the work that students are working on is paid for by a grant or by the university, they own it. So, they're an entirely different licensing keys my my students can roll in and I come out of the game program within our college computing. They can roll into a lab use all of our hardware all of our software all of our networks all of our software software licenses build their games. And then as long as when they incorporate they pay for a corporate license for the stuff they've already built. All they owe us is a thank you know, right and so there be holding to licenses in a different ways that varies a little bit but you have the spectrum of people where you can't just write one policy for all. You have to tell people about what would be the best practices for x y and z okay for software you want to use these licenses and you want to release things this way and if you want it to be permissive look to this stuff right. What about your data what about your hardware open hardware open data. If you're CC licensing your artwork or your humanities work right one of the licenses you want to use there and why so it's in many ways. By its very nature is much more spread out and as john indicated and as I'm sure Stephanie and say you can assert you know there are a lot of people reluctant to do things this way at this point in time. But nobody no longer really has a choice, right, unless you are self funding your own research out of your grandfather's inheritance, but it's a science foundation or somebody else, your stuff needs to be open. And as we see from recent in us. We see from recent solicitations from the NSF and from guidelines from the NIH and those places. They also acknowledge at this point sticking in a folder somewhere. You got to have data plans you've got to have, you know the sustainability written out as an open thing so it's, it's becoming more and more important. It's more and more important to refactor your tenure and your promotion policies around this stuff right it's most of the work that needs to be done in an open project doesn't end up as a peer review journal article in nature. Right, it doesn't so how do we recompense support promote and grow the careers of people who don't follow those traditional policies how do we adjust our policies to support it. So I'm beginning at this point I'm beginning to like really begin to think that you all are doing amazing jobs because again the scope is so much broader than some folks that might be working in a in a more boxed corporate environment. And, but the, but the breadth of the types of scenarios you deal with of course is so broad compared to again a corporate environment where it's kind of like what we build this so likely speaking most people are doing these kinds of of engagements and of course, to your point, in many respects you, you don't have the way to either dictate or put governance policies in quite the same way as an organization might so the challenge is even greater for all of you. And so hats off to the to actually succeeding in that kind of environment. So how do you handle that that broad and breadth of everything we've talked about so far in terms of what you try to achieve. I try to get lots of sleep. So, I'll build on everything you've heard so far and try to do that university and industry comparison throughout so there. I will make the case for having some core technical skills in your Ospo right so we do some of the things you would imagine in any kind of corporate setting we have DevOps people and software engineers so on supporting the software engineering practices and trying to raise the collective capacity and understanding around that we support the university's GitHub account we're about to sign the room for GitLab we run the detergent analytics and so on so tools that people need. And sometimes it's as simple as you don't have to pay for your GitHub account we can we can cover it through the hospitals. All the way to are you aware of what you're doing with your software who's using and who's committing how long it takes to do certain things. So those are very similar I think across any kind of entity that's thinking about software whether it's university government or industry but you know I've mentioned this before universities and companies of CIOs right. And again, they're probably thinking about a lot of same issues. I'm not aware of any company that's running a hospital like Johns Hopkins I'm not aware of any company that has students that you have to protect their student records right so CIOs and universities are very common things with corporate CIOs but they're very unique aspects just given the mission the players the actors in a university setting. So you heard about this the level of autonomy is quite impressive within the university, particularly for tenure faculty members so when we first started the hospital here. I met with a faculty member who was a chair of a committee looking at at basically tech transfer issues. And he said nobody tells me how to manage and publish my articles nobody tells me how to manage and publish my data. What makes the university administration think they can tell me how to manage and publish my software. And it's a perfectly good question in university setting that I don't think is true in a corporate setting. You can tell your employees this is what you will do. If I tell a faculty member what to do their software to be a very brief unpleasant experience for me. And depending on the nature of the faculty member maybe for them or maybe not maybe they might enjoy it. So they're just simply needs to be an acknowledgement that the culture the mission, the level of autonomy the types of players in the university saying is fundamentally different. The power of persuasion is essential in a university setting you cannot show them say this is the way it's going to be and Stevens correct the federal funders and even some of the private funders are moving in direction of requiring more public access they call it to people not necessarily open. But even those policies leave a lot of room for interpretation and universities to come up with ways about how they're going to do these things. And in reality, most funders work with the university community to develop those policies they don't make them on their own and suddenly announce them. I've heard from many program officers that we don't want unintended consequences we know there will be some. But to the extent we can work with the universities to figure those things out the better off we will all be so I do believe the gospel has some common foundations, primarily at the technical the software engineering type level. But as you move further and further up towards research education translation community building. It's very different in a university setting and I'm sure it's very different than the government saying and the reason I was drawn to hospital plus plus quite frankly is people with those backgrounds. People with the the scars that you get in trying to quite frankly, you know nudge the culture in an organization are the ones coming to these events sharing the stories and so on. I wouldn't presume to tell someone in corporate America how to do things because I've never worked for America. So, if you want to get things done in the university. It requires a very specific kind of understanding of the culture and context. I think a little. Right. Well I said policies have to be changed in academia that's three to five years if you're lucky. Right. So, at the moment, at Open RIT, you'll find suggested best practices listed on our website that when people come to us we steer them to here's what we suggest. There's a license that how you structure your repo is how you engage with people outside the university but we cannot say that that's policy now and it may never be policy depends on the university we don't get to make that choice. Right. So, if I can also just jump in there. Steven's correct that's typically the pace at which things move in the university, but there are external drivers or shocks as a system of the NIH has announced a data sharing policy effective January 2024. And I've been involved in a lot of conversations with a lot of people about updating Hopkins data retention and sharing policy which we're doing in roughly a year and a half a year, depending on how you, when you think we started federal agencies are going to start thinking more about open source software policy. So we have an opportunity to interact with them influence that process and accelerated but once the federal funding agency makes that kind of announcement, universities will have to respond and we do move faster than we typically do so there's opportunities there around open source software policy development. Thanks everyone for that. If I can just like kind of summarize then where we're at because you know what I'm hearing is that the requirements for folks in open source program offices in academia and has the base basics that oftentimes is there in the corporate world but actually some additional context that needs to have that folks need to have an understanding of in order to be effective there. And I think, I think we're all lucky though that the corporate world has done so much background in terms of the actual like resources that are available for folks that you know coming from groups like the to do organization where they're actually building an awful lot of resources that can then be leveraged in the context universities, and what it sounds like there's a lot additional stuff that can be layered on top of that for the specific context of academia, and to be able to to help your own journeys. And congratulations to you all on the work you've done so far to help all those areas and thank you so much for sharing your stories with us here today. Fortunately, we've come to the end of our time. But I want to thank again, Stephen and Stephanie Saeed and john for joining us here today and and I hope that everyone in Austin is having a great event and we look forward to hopefully catching you up in person next time. Thanks everyone, and goodbye for now. Bye bye now. Thanks, Claire. I think on your own or I'll type them for you I have a hand. Sir, do we have a microphone, or just just shout I can hear you. All right, so what is that question or right. So, I'm requesting two points, one of opportunity and one of apprehension around the differences in ecosystem role of academic auspice and academic open access community organizations such as like student organizations etc. Do you have more or you want us to talk about those or what. I'd love to hear your thoughts and the very like educated perspectives that you have in the states of maturity in your organizations. So what are the states of maturity of of student engagement and what else. There's between an Ospo and an academic student organization and kind of what that difference in the ecosystem looks like what opportunities and Ospo affords that a student organization does not and vice versa. I have typed it in kind of sort of mostly. Thank you. We engage with students as part of the Ospo again because of that situation that we have where students on their IP right. I don't have policy written yet because policy only comes from a very long academic process we have our best practices that are you can see on our website. And we point students specifically to the IP policy that says you know you guys own your stuff unless we're paying you or funders paying you. That said these kinds of things about licensing so on so forth we recommend that you follow them for you know your own good health in your project right. You know we often advise student production teams to incorporate you know and within RIT we have the Magic Center which is where a lot of the student productions come out of. And if they want to publish we're a studio and they publish through us they only take like 3% if they make money eventually but then they don't have to get incorporation you know processes and get lawyers and all that self done for pay fees. They're umbrella so that protected from being sued personally if there's an issue with the game or whatever so similarly the Ospo says look you can do what you want. If it's a non university funded thing but you really ought to think about using these licenses and having these read me's in your projects and so on and so forth it's insurance for you right. So I hope that answers the question there. In chat what I see Saeed saying is one of the interesting challenges in university setting is balancing the creativity of student groups in the operationalization of software engineering practices. The Hopkins Ospo has engaged student groups offering support for their work without constraining or dictating what they do. Having said that it's important to note that an institutional policy or funder policy needs to be considered for even student work. So Saeed and I said the same thing in different ways and I see there is a one minute sign so one quick question. Yes. So this might be a no op question but are there differences that you see in in the role of Ospo's in in academic settings between public and private institutions. If Stephanie were here she would be able to answer that better probably because Stephanie is the one of public university. Saeed and I are both in private one so let's see if Stephanie is still here. If I've tried to ping her directly we'll see if she pops up. I will say while we're waiting to hear back from Stephanie if this is a discussion that interests you. RIT is doing a summit around those issues September 7th through 9th. I've got handouts in my bag happy to pass one on to you so you can see what we're doing. Claire says I would note that there are major differences between all of the Ospo's we work with and I'm going to ask her. Are you saying that as Irish Claire or as international Claire? Saeed says public universities typically need to account for state guidelines or policies more than private institutions. Tony Wasserman who's in the virtual space says there are differences different meaning Saeed says but even public universities have to respond to federal private funder policies and guidelines. Claire says she was speaking as international Claire not just as Irish Claire. I think we're booted. I'm happy to continue conversations in the hallway. Thanks all. Also if this is of interest to you I've got a session tomorrow about the fellowship program run out of our Ospo and happy to talk about that.