 We have to go to a referendum. If it goes through, if these people will not be objected in any way, there has been said already the report has used over 20 million and now if we have to vote billions, I mean if we have to move on, Rayla says it will go to less than two billions and the IBC says it will be more than 10 billions. What's your stand? Both of them are lying to us because one or another, they have a stake in that referendum. Someone wants to make money. That referendum, like I said, it's for two things, political formations and making money. Now they need to be honest enough and tell us the real reason but they won't because they'll tell you for Kenya to be safe, Rayla has to be somewhere, Guru has to be somewhere. And that, to be honest, you see, I was telling a friend of mine the other day, these people, they will talk about empowering the youth, they'll never do because they need the youth to throw stones. They need the youth when they're going for a rally, you know when they go for rallies and they post photos and they're happy about the crowd, I feel sad because that is the number of unemployment. When you call for a rally on Tuesday or Wednesday, let's say tomorrow, Hurupak, it will be packed to the brim and they'll enjoy it but for a young person that shows the lack of employment. Now, when they talk about empowering you and I via a referendum, that is a lie because they come from the school of thought, use them to control them. They will impoverish you so they come and give 500 shillings and tomorrow you'll demonstrate for them but you'll never see their sons and daughters. While you're demonstrating their sons and daughters are busy either like Kallonza, your son is in Iyala, your daughter will be in Poland, so you will be the full demonstrating. So I would like to urge the youth, that document has nothing to do with you and I, let us be honest, that's number one. And for you to wait to be liberated, it will never happen because the best liberations out of the mind, where you believe that you can solve your own issues, believe you me the only person who can save the other youth is the youth themselves. This old folk, you know this is what they say in English, old dogs can never learn new tricks. These are a group of people who came via Waikin 92, most of them, you know, that's where they started and they have gotten to a full circle of their politics. Now it's time to face them out and that's why I say 222, I'm not just saying the issue is not just young. The issue is objective, the issue is people centric leadership and the youth should rise up and be counted. That is my state. I think there is something important that the youth need to understand. That when we will be going into the referendum, the only thing that will be in the referendum, the constitutional question that will touch on the youth is something that is being called the youth commission. And what is in that amendment is a set of, you know, functions of that commission. And Nuri had already mentioned that these will be people appointed by the president. But those functions that are proposed to be amended in the constitution or to be included in the constitution are already present in the National Youth Council. In fact, if you read section 4 of the National Youth Council Act, it is more robust, it is more expensive than what is being proposed. So this is just a camouflage, it is just something that should lower the youth so that when you are told that this referendum is about you, you would rush and think that there is something there for you, but really there is nothing. If we are serious about engaging the youth and I must touch on inclusivity versus inclusion. I think what we must focus on is inclusivity and not inclusion. In as much as inclusion is the end product of inclusivity. We must look at making sure that youth are included in government. We should not be reduced to talking about unemployment. So after you employed, then what? If you have a bad economy, then it does not matter that you have a good job. I think then we must move from the youth being reduced to jobs and making sure that you have a business that is running. Let us have youth being engaged in how the economy of this country is run, in how the management of their affairs of this nation are run. And that cannot be done by giving youth jobs or making sure that they are employed. In fact, if we focus on employment, then we will be turning ourselves into the problem of the middle class in this country where you are comfortable with an 8 to 5 job and nothing else bothers you. So I think the youth need to arise and engage fully, not just in matters of employment, engage. We need to see youth talking about because we have graduates of economics and finance. Let us look at how these proposed amendments are going to be costed. What will it cost the country if we go this direction? Let us look at policies of government, not just touching on youth. The youth must engage in matters of agriculture, they must engage in matters of health, in matters of education. So I think we need to expand this youth engagement and let it be inclusivity and not just inclusion based on employment. Nadine, with this proposal being said, we might go for a referendum come 2021, actually early 2021. Do you think as a country following that we have been in a pandemic, everyone is crying whether they have no money? Of course there are those who have made money out of this, but truly speaking as a nation, are we ready to go for a referendum? That just shows the insensitive nature that we have with the politicians we have. These are examples. These guys, they forget the most important things right now. People have been retrenched. People have no homes. You are having demolitions left, right and center in the middle of a pandemic. But they will tell you that it is not a must. So then you come and tell me again, this is a referendum that will cure all this. That's a hoax. That shows you they are out of touch with reality and clearly they don't know what the people need. Most people if you work here and ask someone, what would you rather have? Food on the table or BBI referendum. They will choose food any other day. Because that document is just like, you know we had so many documents. Why haven't we ever implemented that TGRC document? Why? When you talk about historical issues, focus on them. Solve that. You know if you want to solve everything, have a holistic document. As you said, be sincere in what you are trying to say. We have had so many historical issues and problems that are not solved by a prime minister, deputy prime minister or an imperial president because that is where we are going. And you know what they forget, those who are part and parcel of the BBI. You know in law we say when you form in a law or making legislation, make one that is harsh for your worst opponent. So that when they are there it is hard for them to even implement it. But now when you are making something so sweet, imagine how the deputy president feels right now that he feels secluded, him and his group. Now imagine him as an imperial president. Would Rayla rejoice that? And now they are saying we are going to have an office of leader of opposition. Imagine president Ruto financing office of Rayla Molo Dinga to disturb him. Would that happen? There is something Hilary just before we proceed to the next issue. There is an agency. There seems to be an agency among the political class to get us to a referendum as fast as possible. I really wish that this agency would be transferred to some of the recommendations in the BBI report because Nudina has mentioned the TJRC report. When you look at the recommendations under land matters, they have mentioned Ndungu land report and the TJRC report. I really wish Senior Rengo would also be giving us timelines on when the TJRC report would be implemented. We would be happy as a country if they told us that by February 2021 the TJRC report would be implemented. Then Ndungu land report would be a reality, a full reality under this constitution. So I think when we want to judge the intents of the political class we look at where they are directing their agency and the agency is being directed at changing the structure of government. It has nothing to do with these other bits that they have attached to their real intentions. Before we conclude now that we have mentioned the gray areas and the misgivings of the document that people feel like they need to be amended. If I am now going the way of the deputy president, if it has been to be voted in, what is good about it? Because we always have the good on the other side. What's the good about this document? The good thing is that we've had the so-called pieces, they call it. What do I mean? If there was no handshake between Uhuru and Raila, Marega would never have complained like he did. That's a fact. But other than that, there is nothing. I'll tell you for a fact, there is nothing. The whole document is just a vacuum. A voluminous 204 pages that has some blank pages if you check. There are some blank pages. So the document, and with due respect to those who formulated that, they couldn't do better. That is shallow beyond shallow. If you do that during a graduate in law, if someone's project you ask him, you'd fail. Because you have not solved anything. You've raised questions with no answers or implementation mechanisms. So what I'd say the only good thing with the handshake is the peace. We no longer have Monday Manu Tuesday or Monday or Friday. People can, okay, you can work. You can try and, for lack of a better word, hustle here and there and campaign like Marega campaign. And that is nothing. Honestly, there is nothing. And I will say this, that we have not really experienced peace. What we have experienced is calm. There was a sense of political calm. And that does not translate to peace. If these politicians decided today to go back to their factory settings, this country will not be a peaceful country. So I think what we achieved was just a sense of calm. And now that you're talking about what is good and what is bad in this report, I think I will restate what I began with when we were beginning the show. That the only thing that this report has excelled at is taking an accurate medical history of this nation and correctly identifying the symptoms that we are facing. But it suffers an acute misdiagnosis. The thing it suffers is a dangerous misprescription because the things that are being prescribed do not match the symptoms, do not match the medical history. And I think when we're talking about medical terms, that means that you're almost killing a patient because if the symptoms do not match the diagnosis and if the diagnosis does not match the prescription, then it is akin to killing the patient. So I think the things that are touted as good, they appear good, but those things are blinding us from the real issues. And the real issue is that we have a failed government. And if we do not stick to the ball, if our eyes are not on the ball that this government has failed in doing several things, then we will rush through this process and say this BBI report is good and the succeeding government, which unfortunately will have this same women and men, which is about to use gentlemen, but I don't think that fits their profile. These are the same people who will be in the succeeding government. So if we do not point out the deficiencies of government, then we will think that this BBI report would have solved issues, but it will just be a cosmetic repair and we know what happens to make up when it rains heavily. So another eritorik question, as you give us your final comments gentlemen, I will begin with you Nudin, the elephant in the room, has this BBI responded to it because it was all about inclusion, the top leadership, that was the biggest thing then, they added up what we have been told from the youth, from the women and what have you, as you give us your final recommendations. For me I will say this and I will be clear about it. These laws that they want to make will affect the youth of this country. You have the advantage of time. These guys are living on what Zafarkum call Star 1, 4, 4 hush balance. They are here to come and go. Now you must wake up and decide what you feel will represent you better. Laws that are meant to hinder your progress say no to. Now what do I mean? You have been told to read the document. Go ahead and read it. Challenge this document. It's high time the young men and women, let us move from Twitter aunts, Instagram, Facebook to reality. I like a quote by Dedankimati. He said the way to freedom is not easy. It's full of tears, it's full of lies on the clothes, it's full of sweat and it's full of blood. The youth of Kenya should be ready to sacrifice. Now my question to you as a young man, are you ready to sacrifice for your betterment? Because the economic freedom you are looking for will never be handed over to you. The doors you want opened, you have to break them down because they will never be opened. And what do I mean? Stand for what interests you and the country at large, but not what the politician says is good for you. We've heard a scenario where they said Baba Mesoma Katiba 2010 to Petishe. Now they are saying to Mesoma Ikosawa to Petishe. And then they'll wake up for two years and say you know what, we forgot something, let's change this. It's high time we know what really matters and stand for it. Now that this is a youth centric show, I really want to plead with the youth of this country as my brother has mentioned, that we really need to be awakened. We should not just support political factions for the sake of it or for the sake of our tribal inclinations. We must interrogate issues, we must interrogate policies and for the sake of this referendum because it's going to come. They have told us that whether we like it or not, it's going to come. So because it is here with us, we must interrogate this document and the impending constitutional amendments with very sober minds. And I will challenge you and Ram to come up with a program. If it is weekly, then that will be fine. Where we analyze specific items under the constitutional amendments and tear them into bits and digest them so that the youth of this country can understand what it actually means to support or to oppose this impending referendum. So that you are not opposing just because you've been told to oppose and you're not supporting just because you've been told to support. I think if the youth of this country decide that they're going to pass these amendments, then let it be because they have considered that it is actually beneficial to them. So I want to exhort the youth of this country to make sure that we are not swayed because this constitution that we are planning to change is for posterity. We do not enact constitution just to change them nearly two or three years down the line. We enact them and indeed our preambo states that we are giving this constitution to ourselves and to posterity. So we must look at not just ourselves 50 years down the line but even our grandchildren. Alright, thank you so much gentlemen for coming and speaking to young people, our audience out there and of course everyone else who has been watching. And back home thank you so much for keeping us company. They have been my guest tonight Philip Mwangali leadership and governance consultant Nudin Kagai, political and governance expert. Thank you so much. I was sitting in for Ram Agoko hopefully next week who will be with him here with more matters of politics and what is happening around us. My name is Dereva Hillary. Thank you so much for being part of us. Have yourself a very good night.