 Hello everybody if it's Wednesday it's Warhammer and that must mean it's time for another episode of Warhammer Weekly. Joining me as always is my co-host Tom, who's not on the screen right now but that's okay, somebody dancing. There he is, there he is. Also joining us we have a illustrious panel this week. My goodness am I excited for this week because as already has seen his dancing skills are legendary it's Rob the honest wargamer how are you doing buddy? I'm great thanks. Six dance skills is what I really wanted to call my Twitter handle. I can't tell you how I feel to be with some of the greatest people in the land on the telly so thanks. You're too generous but what made you think it was a good idea to sit in front of a green screen? He normally sits in front of it for his show and uses a better software program where he can actually put a background behind him. That's fine but I'm just saying it's a mistake on our show. Well yes because now people will be able to green screen stuff behind you which I'm excited about. And I'm excited about that just the main problem is is that if I put this down you'll see all the prisoners and I can't let them out so. I already have Photoshop open so I might be a little unresponsive but I'm working on it. Some pretty important stuff. Also joining us this week as you can see. Hey woe twitch buddy. Great to have you back on the show again. How you doing sir? Yo. Oh my god how great are you? You're so great. Everything you do is like liquid gold. I am your biggest fanboy. Don't care who knows it. Just keep being you. Are you reading the guy I paid to say that in chat? We are here today to talk about the GHB 2020. This should have been a celebration of all things matched play but we may be missing some critical information for reasons that are at this time unknown to me and I don't particularly like. But we're going to discuss that when we get into it. But first off the not news. What do you got Tom? NashCon got cancelled? That's true. That did happen. I mean that's not surprising. That's the big news for me. Yeah I know. That's the big news for me. I mean I guess we have a rumor engine. We do. It's up on the screen. So the question is is it like that Lilith Hesper-X 40k model? No. Or is it the little clokey bit with the fish hooks in it of the new war cry of one of the unseen dark elf war cry things? There you go. It's one of those two things. That's my vote. I think it's the war cry. What do you guys think? Gentlemen, any dissenting opinions on the little wippy hair? Well it's got little hooks I see in it and honestly looking at it it looks like one of those electron microscope really close up water bear kind of photographs. So it could be individual units for like an AOS epic game. But it's like it's like a 0.1 millimeter base size and they have to really zoom in to get a picture of it. Yes. So we call it ultra epic. So we're fighting a real scale armies but on the normal table. So you have something like 100,000 troops, 200,000 troops you know full scale stuff. It's omega epic and I mean piling is pretty annoying though. Yeah that's true. You still have to pile in exactly three edges with each individual model. Yeah you do. You have to measure it too. That makes sense. And it sucks because when you measure it it changes its velocity. By measuring it yeah absolutely you affect it yeah. So you can never get the perfect pile in yes. Yeah. It's a good point. Just for the Heisenberg fans in the group. Heisenberg I tell you. Science jokes tonight ladies and gentlemen. I actually can't look at the rumour engine stuff because I get really really really deep into it. I actually stopped like about a year ago. I've been a year clean. Thank you everyone. Congratulations. Celebration of that. Thank you because I get really weird. I like start doing like pictures on the wall in pen and like messaging people with like fantasy theories like late at night and so it's just really bad for my like mental well-being. So I don't like to guess if that's okay. I'd like to not be a part of it if you don't mind. I understand as a recovering engine a holic it's perfectly fine. It's we have to respect it. It's it's it's super cool. Yeah because sometimes I just stand outside games workshop for hours just hoping to catch a glimpse of something hours and hours. I don't know restraint. So I have to always guess. Understandable. None of it matters because nobody remembers what we guessed and so it's perfectly fine. It's so true. I don't know restraint. Mr. I won't buy an army this year. That's like. That started three new armies. I didn't start. Okay. Not going to check the tape. Yeah it's fine but he is right. The way he carefully defined what starting a new army meant means he has your parameters. Fastest test. Yes. I did indeed set the parameters appropriately. Sure. Sure. Absolutely. You're like you're like a he wrote a thesis on specific language. Absolutely. Yes. They tease you level contract writing or Bayotsu or however you want to pronounce that at any rate. Other couple other just quick pieces of news that are relevant for me. One the I am teaching a class next month. So I am teaching again. It'll be in Michigan. So it's in Lansing Michigan. The link is down in the description. It's August end of the weekend the first weekend in August 7th or 8th or whatever that amounts to. And it's what's going to be one of the Imperial night classes. So if you fancy painting a giant robot. And you live in the Michigan or there you go. Yes. It's a smaller robot. But that's a cool robot. I like those dudes. The also those tank treads are like gold for conversion like that whole kid is gold for conversion. So yes. Yeah. It's also how I imagine that the human race will become very quickly maybe next two to four years. Absolutely. I for I'm when I get the cybernetic upgrades. I'm not going for the tank tracks though. That's not I want I still want legs. I'm sticking with legs. Legs seem like a time tested winner. I want blade legs. Oscupatorious. Sure. Makes you faster at running. Better issue in. Yeah. That's why I want blade legs. Yeah. It's a good point. You got to think about all the potential benefits. So if you're interested the links down below. Secondly the Nova open charitable foundation and OCF raffle went live today. If you're interested in paying a small amount of money to win things like an entire painted army. You can do so with the Nova open charitable foundation raffle. The tickets are usually like five or eight dollars depending on the individual item. And it's you know it's a good chance. Somebody's got to win it. It could be you. So last year I do. So last year obviously myself and the rest of CK Studios we all did a big warlord Titan. That we donated and somebody won that and that was fun and cool. This year I did not that because I will never paint another warlord Titan that was way too big. And I did the least of it the least of it and it was still annoying. So we're gonna but this year I I did a Imperial Fist space Marine captain the cool Primaris captain. The one that Darren Leitham sculpted and I also did a big art project called a year of wasted paint and it's like art like real art. And you can you can check that out too. Both of those are available for raffle. So you can go there and do that and all your money goes to a good charity and it even links you to the charity if you want to look at exactly where your money would go. So there you go. Alright Jeff. Your little palette. The art thing is all of your paint that you've collected every year right? Yes. So it's yeah it's exactly it's all my little wipeys from from paint that I collected over a whole year and then cut and put together into a big and then framed them into a big piece of Pollock like abstract art. Yes. Nice. There you go. Okay that's all the news because there's no news. I mean there's going to be no news because it's only going to be 40k stuff probably for a long time to come. So and that's fine. Maybe they'll slide a giant release in there somewhere. We can all keep we can all keep the hope alive. So let's do some. No he just he won't use at all. None. It's a quiet week. I mean we're gonna talk about the other thing. Did I miss something? No. No. Nothing. I think he's just pointing out that like it would be shocking that you would not do even anything for one of your game systems but that's okay. We're alright. We'll get by just fine. We've got this great GHB with so much new information and so many big changes to the meta that it's going to bring along the it's going to completely reshape some armies and I'm excited for that and whether or not I'm sarcastic right now you'll have to keep watching to find out. Yeah it's half the things you could want from a GHB. It's great. Yes. The statement I gave on Rob show which I'll repeat here since it's my favorite joke is it's the best that November 2019 has to offer. So there you go. All right. Let's do some pick of the week. Joe you got anything you want to share with everybody. I do and it's not something new which is a little unfortunate. However it is also a charity speaking of yours. This is a charity marathon event for health which is important to most people online as we're seeing. It's going to be the 26th of this month and the 27th so Saturday Sunday and it's going to be live on Twitch at MR underscore Mephisto that's Mr. Mephisto on Twitch and there really is an absurd amount of prizes. We were planning on it being like as big as we could make it and we're just some guys but people just started giving him stuff and it kept happening and it yeah there's a terrific amount of stuff. You can win probably several armies if you're really lucky so check it out. I'll be there. You'll be there. A bunch of people will be there. He's got guests in like two hour blocks for the entire time and it's going to be it's going to be really cool. I don't have the full guest list right now but you can check it out and please look forward to it for a good cause. You win a whole OBR army like a whole Nergal army. It gets crazy. There's a lot. So yes if you like free armies. Oh sorry 2526 my sense of time is off because I haven't left the house in five months. Pardon me. 2526. There you go. Yes all time is a flat circle. Time has no meaning anymore. It's a speedometer at this point. It just keeps going around. Exactly. Yeah all right Rob what would you like to share with everybody or point to everybody toward? Probably just everything Hewo does ever all the time and not just not just no it's okay to mine is more of a vagary. Mine is just more than everything all the time probably would be would be my shout just everything he ever does. Start to finish is brilliant. That's right. That's right ending. Hey I'm gonna accept that. Thanks for the saying that. You'll find your donation and your email there. Tom it's your turn to tell me how great I am if you could. For myself I was also going to say Heywo he is the source of the best if some of the best if not the best satire or AOS satire that just is out there and so I would encourage you all to check out his feed because there's some gems on there. He did some really fantastic work this week and it's worth you checking it out. Yep so I will link everybody. I will obviously everybody's channel and Twitter and everything will be linked down in the description so do please go check that out. For myself I'm gonna shout out our good buddy Doug from 2 Plus Tough. If you're like so many people I see on Twitter and Facebook and so on and painting up your Lumeneth realm lords and you're too busy painting to read the lore section about anything to do with those elves then you can go check out his most recent video on Heish where he explains how the lore of Heish which is cool because we actually have lore on Heish now. It was one of those one of those realms we didn't have much on. You shut your face. I know you love Doug so don't even try it uh even though he was going to punch you in the face that's all right. I know can we talk about the fact that since I was last on this show I was called a terrorist? Yes. I remember that. Yeah yeah also like a bad something else a bad faith act I can't remember what it was there were some other ones there's been several like. You're lucky that I didn't introduce you as the newest MP from Nottingham for the Tories it's Rob there that's what I could have gone with if I would have called that. I mean Vince is one of the worst friends out there so. I know I was like wow okay anyway it's fine. It's all right we all that's what happens when you have good friends who love you Rob this is the the treatment you get. I flipped it I flipped it on its head Vince I flipped on its head like you call me a Tory the next day you could sub at the tier three which is the most expensive tier and you get an exclusive Tory emoji yeah so now what you're gonna do now what you're gonna do yeah I love it I love it that's right look that's how that you don't you don't get to the top of the of the party without having these kinds of revenue sources so I think exactly that's how it works got to capitalize ABCs all right uh so let's talk about some hobby time uh since we have all basically been locked in our houses and in our both of our respective countries that will probably continue for a while uh Joe what's you been working on man oh you would think so wouldn't you I only ever have a choice when I have free time and the choice is work on hobby for me or make videos for other people and if you've noticed there haven't been a lot of videos recently although actually there have been recently it was just a few months before that that was slowing down and it wasn't because I was hobbying so I always choose videos and please enjoy them uh because my my my gray armies uh that I'm working on are the payment for that there you go well we do appreciate it very much and that is a good hobby uh it's that still counts making videos counts as hobby time that's still completely valid uh as as three out of the four of us here will attest uh all right thanks Ben yeah absolutely Rob you're painting right now you still were what are you what are you working on uh I'm working on some cataphrone guy yeah yeah some cataphrone destroyers but that's only because I've played today luckily I got two games a ninth edition in today my first ones uh which was fun um so it was between this and the Glockin who I've had half and for a long time and I'm very excited about Ally and him in some units so I was thinking about the Glockin um so I've been doing all sorts really I got Gasgul Thracadun this week so he's fun um thinking about doing all my Nurgle demons so I could go cross system like AOS and 40k sure sure uh but I've been quite busy I've launched the gaming system just saying you did bring that up in the news but I'm not bothered at all oh I say that now we get to the no other AOS news yeah I didn't break it up because I assumed you were going to share it no no I'm not bothered just why but all right well let's actually talk about it I would like you to know we're talking hobby I don't want to talk about now it's too but too shy it's too shy you missed it now you missed it I'm going to put the link to the super series down in the description if you're interested in Rob's new project which looks absolutely amazing and a real way to make teesports happen if you have any interest in one of the coolest formats that Rob has dumped his heart soul in a lot of time into you should go check out that link and follow him where he will explain it there thanks babes oh thanks also uh little side note got the values signed off today so that's exciting that's awesome it's uh yeah it's pretty pretty fun but whatever whatever and also I loved hewo who already broke it so I'm not not happy about that on twitter he's like just do all the safety bans I was like no yeah day one I don't think it was it wasn't break it was clever use of game mechanics that's a new so that's like the new meta now is doing that it's just uh it's just proving how deep your system is and you didn't even realize anyway that's fine yeah what some did do it that's right nothing Tom Tom has been down here at my house for a while he was running a long d&d game so we didn't get much hobby in over this last weekend was we were playing d&d for four days straight we were and um I uh my one event that I was looking forward to just got cancelled so yep there'll be more events in the future I don't know when I'm going to go to an event next let me say it that way uh I mean same yeah sure it's it's that kind of thing I mean if we're lucky we'll still get holy havoc at the end of the year though I don't think you're able to go to that I'm not sure no I'm graduating that's okay I already found a replacement partner for you so I have I have replaced you so uh there's no replacing you Tom don't worry only for this event uh well that's all right get something back on the hobby desk besides flaming hot Cheetos uh the those are johns I I know I forced him to take them from this house and I cast out that abomination uh so the for myself uh still working on that display board it's back there it's still happening uh it's huge it I didn't it is yes I didn't get much work on it this weekend but to get a little I've got it almost done I think I should be good this this coming weekend although I'm going away with my wife for three days so uh apparently just this isn't the weeks of hobby but I'll get it done and then I I'm so excited to sit in my desk and paint a normal thing again and not be working on a giant craft project so there you go uh all right guys gentlemen are we prepared to discuss the the GHB the generals handbook uh we are but GW isn't I had to get one last one in there before we uh before I moved on absolutely so all right let's uh let's start with our high level thoughts of this thing before we get into the deep and I'm just gonna we're gonna round robin this opine as much as you would like okay so uh hey woe start us off overall feelings on GHB 2020 and if you will especially vis-a-vis GHB 2019 which I think was one of the most disappointing GHBs in history although it had great battle plans yeah I would say that um I really got to hand it to them they finally gave us what we've been asking for for so long and that's more meeting engagements um that's a big positive for me uh actually so the battle plans still good um there are some things to maybe smooth a little bit over but as always the battle plans are probably the thing that's most important actually in there they affect the game the most or they have the potential to affect the game the most uh for the most people so I'm pleased with the battle plans this time um we'll get into them later so there's that uh points didn't really do anything at all um even taken from the lens of when they were accrued um two factions got a honest look the rest not so much we're waiting on the other ones uh the hero builder anvil thing is really cool and I think you're going to talk about it next week so we're just probably going to touch on it maybe yeah we'll touch on it a little bit yeah it's really cool um you know it's about as good as I was expecting you know there's nothing like terrifically unbalanced about it but you can have a lot of fun building stuff as long as it's not on a normal mount um right it's either one or a monster those are your choices yeah yeah and then they took a lot of candy away from all sorts of people which was unfortunate and they didn't give us anything back in return yeah so overall mixed um yeah yeah it feels like um I'm 2019 again except with a really cool like narrative hero builder like duct tape down to the side of it sure I get that Rob how about yourself what are your overall what's your overall feelings so I actually think uh for match play like there's some some very solid structural changes like zero to 300 spells single five up like single dpr sorry um like they changed up which I actually think was a real positive and a little bit like under looked they changed up how uh you start the game off when you roll off uh which actually I think is is good um uh to some degree even less clarity in some ways on terrain uh than somehow the 2019 but at this point we're yeah more words but at this point we're just kind of ignoring like they're gonna get to the terrain section everyone goes yeah cool not looking at that right path to glory and terrain same place in our hearts um yeah same page so I actually think everything around you know this is kind of what it feels like a pizza but I ate all the crust that's what this feels like I'm like okay you've got the you've kept all the goodness in the middle where the points will be like you've you've got it in a place locked in and it's an even more secure place than than it was before it's how I feel uh and then they just didn't deliver any any flavor in the middle uh effectively that's it yeah that's that's how I feel all right disappointed but you know uh you know as my mother says you've been a disappointment forever nobody expect disappointment and I was like thanks mom so uh you know I've been living that life for a good long time and I don't mind now there you go Tom uh I don't mind the objective design sure yep definitely improved yeah that's it that's he's found the one positive he's locked it in there it is you know this show is just nothing but overwhelming positivity huh don't worry we're gonna we're gonna there is a lot of like there'll be smiles and laughs the whole way we'll be we have we have lots of positive things to say I I think so I think so I there is really anything else you want to say tom or am I jumping in was that were you really being briefed to the point of of comedy or anything else no I mean that's it okay fair enough it's a perfectly fair response uh here's my answer uh high level view I actually quite liked this GHB of what I have seen of what I think actually should be in a GHB this stuff that I think is bad is stuff that shouldn't be in the general's handbook anyways and I think we'll talk about that right basically up front okay yeah totally fair yeah I think for what actually the GHB should be doing this was pretty great I think for the stuff that's clearly no longer right for a publication that runs once a year and takes seven to eight months to produce it's a failure and there we go well no it it it takes seven to eight months to appear it's a bit like a child right sure not very long not very long to make but you know a long delivery time uh yes you're absolutely right so so let's just let's break right into it okay so I'm just let's just get let's just get right into this we're gonna start actually with the points because I think this is going to be the shortest one of the shorter sections not the shortest one of the shorter sections okay before we talk about any individual army or points adjustments point the first I think we'll all agree on points should no longer be in the general's handbook as a printed item in the book does anyone disagree with this sentiment they should be delivered digitally every six months yeah of course of the great yep agreed five years ago when they published the first one it was like amazing yay we have points this is great and they're gonna get new things once a year and everything felt fantastic right and now five years later this feels completely antiquated and way too slow and hey a lot changes in five years okay so you know things come and go often and that's that's just where we are uh there shouldn't be points in this book because to put this in perspective for people who don't follow this as closely from everything we understand these points were kind of set and locked in like november of last year which is madness that's before basically everything that matters right before everything that came in and was relevant and changed the meta in in just like all these armies that changed the meta in catastrophically impactful ways seraphon and and zinchen and even most of obr wouldn't have been uh even like con concepted to under how it understand its impact at that point in time and even things like cities and ogres hadn't run far enough out yet by the time they locked the data they had what like you know a month of date or something to the point where that's why those two aren't in there right because they didn't have enough to know what they wanted to do with it and so if half of our points are going to come into pdf that's what that's what's happening here right a full half of the points and let's be honest the ones we actually care about yeah well no we also care about the other ones they just did it did a terrible job on that half my point is there's more fair but here's what i'll say these newer armies have what i'm trying to make put a point on rob is that these newer armies have more space to change than many of the older armies not all so some of the some of yeah some of the older armies though are the ones that needed the most like either because external balance was where they were struggling i.e. they were losing lots or internal balance where many of the units at dragon ogres like just weren't seeing play like so like you know they buffed dragon ogres in a terrible book to not be comparable with the other units in the book that are terrible but like no i agree with you like i do agree with you they're more impactful ones are the ones that are right at the top being oppressive but still the ones at the bottom could be impacted quite heavily by some point changes as well that's more what i meant yeah totally i agree i will also say that when it comes to a lot of the older ones like you mentioned boc there i think we could also probably all agree that the more impactful thing to do would be to change a lot of the war scrolls or like in many of these cases what's actually needed is not a points adjustment it's a war scroll change not all some of these things we can do just with points but in many of these cases we just need to fix war scrolls yeah some things are kind of hopeless where i think you i think you called it race to the bottom i don't know yeah yeah yeah the race to the bottom yeah no you have a unit that's like structurally so bad that the only way to make it playable is to bring it down enough to kind of break the point system itself right so that it's just like a ball of wounds and stats that's right that you kind of play a million of them and that's not really a solution either right yeah and actually a lot of units fall into this place if you really think about it sure sure i mean like there's no there's no points amount that makes the saigour the correct choice ever in this game sure like ten points i wouldn't put him in an army yeah and a lot of armies have saigors in them yeah like that kind of a war scroll yeah they have the saigour to me is the template like he's the this guy clearly should have a role in the army you look at him and you go okay like a cool ranged artillery monster who's actually really good at killing enemy wizards theoretically that's not actually how the scroll works out yeah but if i were to yes if i were to pitch you this thing you'd be like okay that totally makes sense in this army like enemy magic will be a problem for beast they don't want to deal with that uh and they don't have any good range so having a good ranged artillery piece would actually be a nice like catapult like addition to their army obr catapult right that's what i'm referring to there and you so like if i were to just explain the concept to you you'd go yeah of course that makes sense what a sweet additions that army but it's a big living monster instead of a bone catapult yes i get it that's wonderful and then i'd show you the scroll and you'd be like there is no world where this actually does damage or is useful right so like that even and by the way even things like liberators or stuff like that right like they should just have some tlc on the scroll rather than trying to lower their points yeah exactly i was almost going to say liberators but i didn't want to rustle any feathers but yeah or pre lords or just you know there's all sorts of stuff sure sure absolutely i think also i also think even when you see a new book and silvaneth's a good example of that with the tree lords like the tree lords were terrible for all of the creation of them ever like there wasn't a singular time where they thought we need to reimagine this because it doesn't work and so even when you get a new book um uh or i mean new points are the kind of like the other things or but even when you get a new book you're like okay it's basically the same like that i mean there are have been some good reimaginings but oftentimes not it's just kind of like more of the same it's like as much as you don't want to say it because i love the game i love playing the game so whenever we've been when we're constructively reviewing these things people sometimes think that's a bit negative but the the level of laziness that occurs in both the rules right in the books the points like is like a slap in the face quite often um and especially those things like especially those things like why are iron guts and lead belches i don't know this is your more your area hey woe uh but just why are they like what they are and also why are many is what they are like why are they what oh no imagination added like no special rules no nothing it just it's really confounding sometimes right and disappointing right yeah yeah i know i think those are great examples i think we could go through every book and find these right and that's kind of the internal parity you're talking about where some of these scrolls would be brought up to actually be compelling choices in the army and then that also by the way would lead to better external parity one would think because they would have a broader tool set to deal with a wider range of armies right so i also think identifying roles is something that they they really really struggle with which is where i think the competitive players like or or people who break down armies to be more competitive let's say if they identify units for roles and often obviously monsters are in that really tough spot because they're terrible for holding objectives right so like as a role they just don't fulfill that so they they need to be taken for something else although they're not taken at all um and i don't think they have the internal work i could go on about that forever never mind after you know it's fine we're gonna do a whole show on monsters monsters can only do two things be pure utility or damage monsters or big bullies right big bully damage monsters that's how they need to be built they should all either be like war shrine like war shrine utility pieces that just walk around or just absolute you know uh uh glass cannons yeah because they degrade right like you're not paying the x number of points for like top bracket because after top bracket you're paying x number of points for terrible terrible unit uh doesn't make sense something like the ironclad's a good example of a monster that works because that's all it is it's a big boat that's a monster right and it it's damage profile doesn't really go down as it gets damaged it has a ton of utility it can haul people around it's a threat at range like the ironclad's a good example of like a good monster or whatever yeah okay yeah right okay great so we all agree points should be digital um please make this happen gw that's that's my ask uh because it's just we've already shown we have an appetite and i think they're concerned is that we won't buy the book if there's not this the concept of points there that's nonsense i'm gonna go buy the book if you put cool stuff in it and putting stuff like the envelope apotheosis and putting stuff like uh new multiplayer scenarios and rules in there that's a huge motivation for me but if you cover the spread like that with here are the new battle plans here are these new rules of refreshes and updates here are the realms here is the anvil here is this thing people are gonna go buy the book we don't need the points most people just get their points out of the app or out of you know war scroll builder or something like that anyways they're not who's looking at their general's handbook for points anymore no one's getting it from the app because we're all deleting the app and we're unsubscribing from the app we're deleting the app and and the associated app neither of which are updated yet the word yeah yeah yeah although subscribe shout out war scroll builder is updated with the new points yes it is because tony p's a legend he is a legend just a just a legend four feet tall but a legend yes absolutely yes so so i mean there's just no excuse to still be putting these to printing these points in the book it should just be it should just be stopped then they can actually be done a couple months in advance like they could have been working on the points and and they could be finishing up the pdf a week before publish date of the general's handbook flip it live on that day easy peasy lemon squeezy right and by the way if you wanted to do war scroll updates faqs iradas just do all that at the same time because you're already doing the pdfs done and dusted you know what i mean so like when you want to drop that new plague mug scroll great just do that at the same time there you go i'd also like to volunteer if anyone from Games Workshop's listening i have a free afternoon so i can fill in all the points on the excel spreadsheet you use for the app to get it done i know you're all super busy but like i'll give up that time for us all uh like you know if we need it tom you got half an hour we could probably do it together yeah i thought i could give a guy give a good hour to it yeah get it done we're ready so just give us a call i wait hundred don't call us uh i think it's the number well i got ten p i can i can type those real quick yeah yeah it's right there the numbers are there's a special pad just for it over here on the side of my dword yeah it's got numbers on it yeah all of them uh all right so points aside so that element aside i just want to talk about where we thought points were impactful so uh like where they did a good thing with the points like where it's making an army interesting or changing something new or or maybe bad or whatever like but where we thought they were actually impactful because here's what i'll say first off most of the points changes in this thing were what i would call a giant nothing burgers of nothing where a little a couple things moved by 10 points who cares it doesn't matter all right hey well what do you got is there anything that you saw that you think actually makes a difference with the changes what which one what what is one that jumped out at you let's see uh one two yeah i'll say three four yeah about four i would say maybe five okay so there's that's that's a lot out of 30 that's pretty good sure we'll start with uh oh i'm not taking slanash because that's yours vince yes i i've got i've got that one stay away from my my yeah that one that one's locked down let's take nergal that's the easy one right so um blight kings 140 cool so free because blight kings look cooler than plague bears therefore they should be like the basis of an army because that's how i decide things and roddacus went down to ally range which is uh you mean you mean glotkin you mean glotkin uh sorry glotkin yeah glotkin went down to uh allied points range which is a flight risk now yes there are there are some dangers with the specific wording on his commandability um and and a lot of people are are trying to jump on that a lot of different armies are perhaps going to do some pretty interesting things with it no i'm excited that chaos got their own sellison prime uh because that's what the glotkin is he's like way better in other armies that aren't nergal allegiance yeah like there are there are probably at least two or three other armies within chaos that he can now ally into where he is actually like a a pretty hot pick because of his because of his abilities in nergal itself i just feel like he's fairly duplicative with you know other other tools that they already have right he's good in nergal though because because he's the mortal caster with blades which isn't bad like so he can cast blades which is like and he's a two cast which is also cool um but anyway yeah he's that great pick wicked yeah overall tom what's your thought on nergal i mean you're a big nergal stan you love him um i think that what they did was they enabled a um like they how do i want to say this they made um like with marauders staying as they are they just made marauders more problematic let me say it that way mm-hmm it would surely marauders are going to be in the pdf i mean maybe they need to be on that that's a thing that needs to be undone very very much so right like marauders should not be creeping up to the points levels they're going to need to be at to actually remain fair and competitive because they're marauders like this is where the problem comes in what's the problem with marauders though like they maraud just very well 35 out of 36 times they will maraud like like you know very reliable is what you want them extremely reliably as defensive as a chaos warrior and more offensive at a better wound ratio i see no problems what's the issue no problem yeah no problems here no problems fine with it i think we all agree who can also by the way basically teleport because of their extreme movement the percentage chance you have to nail an 11 inch charge with a marauder is shocking it's shockingly high so yeah compared to your normal sub like 3 chance to nail it so you know man and i did my y play std for new players video and i didn't talk too much about marauders because i'm like these guys are getting these guys are getting dealt with so i'm not gonna i'm not gonna focus on them the whole time i personally think we're fine because they have marauder but my future proofing isn't completely ruined we'll see they seem to be doing their job uh that is true i mean my biggest issue with the nergal ones so comedy comedy answer first beast of nergal down another 10 keep going keep going you're gonna get there if you put them at 40 maybe maybe as a joke somebody will play one sometime well but there is the uh like there's a really cool battalion with the beasts um and being able to plant loads of feculent gnomers which i actually think is a cool battalion it's not necessarily got loads of legs but it's pretty fun like and it's got a bit cheaper which is nice you paying 70 points for a beast of nergal yet rob or oh no but maybe the battalion because like they're attacks if they if they if they yeah the menagerie if they get cheap enough um then i could just keep putting feculent gnomers down and like that's more summoning because that's d3 per one yeah yeah um uh but but probably not but probably not but it's you know it's another like it's always something to look at anyway because it's a fun thing i think if and oh anyway yeah i like they're the many idolans of nergal like the fact that they started at 100 points if we can all remember that remember when they published the book and they were honor points yeah pepperage farm remembers okay so anyways uh that's fine oh and those battalions went down to yes uh sensical levels from nonsensical levels even when they were printed those battalions were nuts 200 and stuff for all of them get out they were crazy i the biggest for the biggest true question that i have in this was why future blikings went down and went down big like 20 points is not an insignificant amount on 160 point unit with 25 wounds or what or 21 21 yeah yeah it's it odors wish they had that wound density right yeah baby it's it's a it's a mystery to me because all that's doing is encouraging like eels to electric boogaloo uh where it feels like people will will spam these things and i just i don't want that to be the thing it felt like all the other moves were right i like plague drones coming down got a problem with that i like plague bears coming down got no problem with that and i feel like if plague bears come down and blikings it stayed where they were it actually would have been a more interesting comparison but none of them came down even remotely like worth of note like yes they came down 10 points or 20 points but it's like it and like blikings matter because they were like it's a percentage change quite like especially on the wound cap but like the whole book called genie's people's like 10 points off everything it's like sweet uh that that means nothing right well i mean it does in the aggregate expect like for the for those that were doing heavy bliking or blikings builds no it's a big deal it's a huge deal yes yes and and what it allowed is that it allowed you to actually fit in some utility endless spells that's the difference sure yeah um like so now you get to throw you have a chance of actually like dropping if you were spending a normal like a normal priced endless spell to actually slip in something like uh um like geminids or cogs or something like that like you're you're you're inching now from like the low to mid cost endless spells to the high cost ones which can be a very large jump of utility that's what i would say i would also say the great unclean when coming down was also a good move i like him dropping 20 i think that feels right yeah i like him dropping 22 i think what rob you can probably explain yourself but i think what you meant was that blikings going down 20 is so much huger than uh guo going down 20 because blikings going down 20 is 20 times seven you know yeah right right yeah yeah that is what i mean i'd also like uh uh um push your blightlords going down 10 points means nothing because you still take zero like it's a net gain of zero points your list they're worse than the three man unit of bugs the fly yeah called putrid uh they're the plague drones but they also went down because they're literally worse than plague drones they should be cheaper yeah but i was it's the three so i don't know yeah i would say that rotigus going down uh is actually a thing because actually for a long time nergal uh easily one of the most impactful early gate early books for that global aoe um so nergal wheel nergal wheel plus uh if you i know vince you don't like the destruction of all those little five-wing characters i don't think any of us do but nergal wheel plus rotigus uh is another chance for some more mortal wounds at range to everyone in the in the room um which is which is i mean when that book first came out i was like i don't like this oh yeah no they're they could be a player in the uh we splash mortal wounds all over the place game that we're clearly getting in yeah because they were doing thrice fold back then right basically everyone was i think and and now your thrice fold is like 60 points cheaper again not nothing yeah all right no cool i think that's good on nergal rob what's your pick what's your hot pick for a thing you want to discuss that's not slanish uh i'm allowed to i'm allowed to pick one unit one faction what one faction we can discuss any units in it i really want to pick aether because i really want to pick aether wings but you don't pick stormcast because they're relevant but i don't want to talk about three units uh i kind of want to farm gas but go ahead all right you do that you do that in tom it's all good in which case cavern oh yeah rat boys for days because like acolytes are bonkers yeah um so that was cool because they're a glass cannon um they're mid-range so you there's some play with them you've actually got a play that's cool uh storm vermin coming down excellent uh give you another option in that book makes the book even wider which i think is great for internal parity doom wheels great they were they're so random that and i ran a doom wheel build and it's really fun um uh and i mean it's not good still but uh big shout out to the help it abomination love it um uh but you know so all goods all goods and then obviously uh you know in some sort of horror show maybe to give me some ptsd they just dropped water lightning vortex by 20 points in believable the game didn't we didn't need that also but we have a we have a we have an understanding now of what games workshop considered to be worth 20 points and that is 13 inches of spell range is what we think 20 points is yeah right which if you said to like a grot player blight do you reckon you want to add 13 inches on to all your spells with 20 points every grot player blight yes i do want that right now give me that i'll pay the points that 20 point pathios is upgrade to give me cool machine with 15 inch spell i'll take it um outrageous idle on to the sea getting 13 inches and doubling the range of all his spells so you're after there yeah yeah a unit that might get played probably not but still like a joy we can hope yeah no i agree i'm stoked about the rat changes here's what i'm excited that we're finally in the phase up ready so when scaven came out they were so busted on points just so sideways that like we had two cycles of only the agree just points going up yeah nobody noticing that there was like also half the book that was overcosted yeah right but the problem is the that was just that became noise to the signal of please raise the cost on these things that are our way under costed right finally we've gotten through that and now we're actually fine we're starting to bring the points down on the stuff that has just been overcosted the whole time yeah storm vermin like yes that was just a great change that that was needed they were too expensive but they were potentially good with their 25 bases and two inch reach that's a lot of attacks like good keyword rat ogre's going down was actually good because they're just horrendously overcosted they're still bad but i'm still excited about it the doom wheel needs to should have went down 20 by the way it should be 140 maybe even 130 because of the randomness it can do something or nothing very easily but that's given that's fine but it but i mean it's pretty good like yeah i haven't used the doom wheel like a lot like it's like there's actually more impact than you would think especially in infantry heavy game generally yeah because you're doing a lot more for that for that one what is it 50 points now you can you can spike a lot of damage in the right situations and maybe spike even like regularly do so but big shout out to the vortex being the best k o buff we've seen so far absolutely yeah absolutely no i would have seen you should have seen the what's that for k o as soon as those points leaked out everybody was like 80 80 yeah yeah of course like that and ironically they moved the demon rift up to 80 which we don't know we'll get to later but but like all that means is like okay great great now it's just now it's just vortex for days yes vortex for days like there's not it's not as much of a decision now you just go okay i'll do vortex that's cool yeah it should be at least some sort of like emotional decision for five minutes like sit in front of a mirror maybe put on some saline dion and just like really think about what your actions are before you decide i mean you're gonna do it i know that just take the time to think should i do it yes yes and the sad thing is i just got my endless spell box of slaves that are supposed to do my conversion like i just got it because like because i was like okay cool i'm in let's do this won't won't wall yeah you can start to paint it green use three bases sure there you go sure well no i already have my uh i already have my conversion for the war play yeah you already have more fighting vortex uh an issue no so all in all i don't disagree with you rob on the doom wheel it just needs to be slightly cheaper i i love it i've used it in many games too and it's always actually like great fun and by the way people like doom wheels i would just point that out like when you play doom wheels again you're even your opponent gets in on the fun because it's so weird and random and does crazy things sometimes i've never had anybody be angry at me for running a doom wheel they're always like oh sweet that thing so yeah i took i took i took scaven six storm fiends uh four doom wheels uh to an event best sports yeah everyone was like what you're doing i was like i'm just i'm just hoping really much like loads yeah everyone was like this is great i'm loving it i was like six storm fiends right here they're like don't care just keep keep rolling them rat wheels baby yeah i was like let's go it's just really interactive and fun yeah amazing amazing amazing so that's good that that's the scaven was a big win for me in my opinion i agree it was what needed to happen we still need a little more like we need to do again it's not points it's something to do with scrolls with like night runners and gutter runners and all of us and who are just terribly useless completely as an entire clan which is a shame except for maybe their vermin lord but anyway different different show different time all right tom what's your pick um did you want to do storm cast yeah let's do storm cast we won't go through all the scrolls i'll just sum it up like this storm cast got about 20 points per unit cheaper that's probably the easiest way to go about it there's a lot of tens a lot of 20s uh it's just a shocking number of drops across the board right so yes yeah i mean what i would say is this i think it's gonna put um it's gonna put uh your um uh your vanguard hunter like your your that that one chamber that nobody ever really played that we just kind of skipped over yeah sure the vanguard chamber yeah yes uh into the like viable consideration of like okay yeah possibly like we can do this sure so yeah i mean i think this might be a bit strong but i'll i'll i'll rep for tyler here who's been building out storm cast list excitedly since these points changes yeah but he thinks that this puts them that this will bring them out of their tailspin and back into middlingly competitive yeah i think that that's accurate yeah i agree yeah no this is this is this is the bin south park where he's like we put it in the bank and it's gone yeah this is the stimulus check yeah like two trillion dollars gone yeah this is the whole thing yeah none of it like it's it's aether wings though but i don't think it does anything it does nothing to the structure of the army it had it solves none of the problems apart from maybe you take like 400 points of aether wings as you chaff now maybe like but then who's gonna buy points is great but i've seen some like chute heavy builds i think have some gas in the tank i will say but we will agree to disagree on this robin time will tell yeah let's do that a good good great for cities though great to see obviously sure yeah uh and celestine prime down 40 points to 300 yes oh my god making the celestine prime the celestine prime of his own of order there you go he's he's back and even better in every army that's not stormcast yeah this dude is the best idlan of the storm i've ever seen yeah how is he 300 and they are what are they now three four well they're like four 60 i believe if you recall sure yeah i do rob i think you're forgetting that the idlan has 12 wounds and the prime only has eight so obviously there you go yeah that's good i forget where's 100 points yeah all right i mean you can't even add more than three wounds in anvil so it's breaking the rules basically yeah there you go exactly see cheating that's what stormcaster doing uh no i think they're these are i think these are all actually really good i think this will make things interesting for stormcast people a lot of the characters got cheaper a lot of their units got cheaper and obviously 40 point aether wings means actually we're going to see probably uh a lot of birds there's going to be a lot of birds i think this will make stormcast better than they even are and by that i mean better people are going to see all these changes and oh aether wings for 40 points is that we have chaff now and i think they're back to what they always should have been from their brief trip up and i don't think i don't think stormcast i don't think stormcast were ever good though like people like i'm losing i'm losing to a secretary but i'm like why like do you not have hands or eyes to see what to do like it like they're a non-flying melee unit just stick 10 guys in front of it but you're with the game like how hard is that that's what i did but i mean it's going to get more people playing it and the more people who play it the more will accidentally do well sometimes and so that's i feel like that's that's good as impactful as their points changes were but there might be something interesting in here i haven't deep dived into stormcast after the changes so i don't know but mediocre sure they've risen to that now sure yeah i mean i would expect community good now and they conceivably have good shooting so yep i would expect a community article to say something along the lines of you know like they're uh they're as good as they've ever been or something like sure yeah yeah um because i mean they're just deadly as ever just as deadly as ever and well yeah i was i was trying to stay away from the deadly as ever that's clearly ogres i mean that's great it can apply to anyone yeah it does we share our memes i don't know i like i i have hope that i think that there will be some builds that will be very frustrated it will be competitive and very frustrating let me say that for sure yeah yeah and that's the real goal right right is that that somebody will play them at high you know like high level competitive play and there will be a build or two that are going to do well but i also think those builds or two will be very very very frustrating like i think like i don't want to go into npe too much but i think that there will be a lot of people complaining about some of those those swarm gas shooting builds okay all right fair enough uh mine for impactful and not in a happy way is going to be of course slanesh oh boy so let's tuck into this this is the rare quad nerf not many armies have gotten the quad nerf but slanesh is now the recipient of the quad nerf now i'm not ultimately super unhappy about this i'm gonna love having our low 40 win rate i'm gonna enjoy it it's gonna be great everybody can shut their face and uh and it'll be wonderful uh no i mean like so when i say a quad nerf what happens there are four independent nerfs here that happen to slanesh one obviously the real nerf the thing that that like the actual nerf that happened back at the december time the december the winter f aq when we got all our very very very needed changes to things like locus and the summoning and stuff like that super on board it was great and to be clear the job was done they won they won yep slanesh had been brought to heal and it was like it was where it should have been so then second nerf is right now with the points like yes fiends went down i'm sorry fiends are bad like that's not i can't help you with that like i love them too they're super cool looking models one of the best redesigns they've done in in ages it's second only to like the the keeper herself but the but this army is hero hammer like slanesh is hero hammer the engine of slanesh is your heroes anything you put in the army that isn't a hero weakens your army yes full stop okay there are allegiance abilities that apply to heroes put in non-heroes you don't have allegiance abilities that's it that's what happens okay so then the hell striders everybody's you know go to cheap battle line to just die they don't do anything they're just there to literally exist and die went up 10 points why i guess because people took them great uh market research has determined these units have been chosen all right so hence got up them points they've never killed a model ever like but that's fine whatever the keeper of secrets and shellaxie both going up 20 is just okay sure and the contorted epitome going up 10 is fine because honestly it probably should have if i was going to make any points changes it would have been like i would have cut all that out and i would have said like fiends down 30 epitome up 10 or 20 and i would have been fine and that should have been the changes because the epitome is admittedly too good for what it is especially when it gets allied i don't know the 10 points changes the calculation on it at all what i do know is though across my three battle line units and my keeper or keepers and my epitome like this is actually a significant amount of points increases like it's about 100 points they just chewed out of the list okay that's not nothing and so that's nerf number two nerf number three is the loss of realm artifacts okay say what you will uh like there are multiple different realm artifacts that slanesh often relied on to achieve its sort of nastiness right maybe here's maybe maybe at your mind that's a good thing maybe it's not we're not going to rehash the argument rob and i had you can go watch the whole episode we did on his channel about realm artifacts i'll simply say that slanesh was the one exception of a winning army that used realm artifacts those are gone now so no more flying keepers no more aether quartz no more many of the different things you would use okay so there you go that's that's you know nerf the third right okay uh with you right absolutely uh and then nerf the fourth is just the general statement of the general place the meta has gone the meta went from like an all melee no one shoots casters are honestly kind of weak meta where everything was just a melee scrum to uh shooting is very much a thing range damage is very much a thing and range removal is very very very present right uh and that that sort of a meta melts slanesh off the board just pick them up because your average slanesh army has about 90 wounds 100 wounds if you're playing pure slanesh without going out into other things yep like 90 wounds is a joke if people can put out shooting there are armies that will just melt off half your army turn one and they're right enough to pravati to get it back okay like yes you might start at 90 and people are like well but you can sign totally agree you will replace some of that up but it will just die too fast like putting slanesh against somebody like ko or somebody like zeech in its current form is a joke it's a joke like that's it that's a 70 30 80 20 type of split that was before all these changes it's probably worse now now totally whatever it is okay this is probably you're not better i'm not i'm really not i don't care because like we had our good times we'll have our bad i don't like armies go up or down it doesn't actually bother me like people shouldn't take these kinds of things in an insulting fashion i love my army and i'll still play him okay i don't care uh there are other ways to play it maybe i'll play more lurid haze invaders with like our key on the head right or something like well so so that would be my pushback vince like on on on your statement about the quad nerf in the in the i agree with you about the meta shift and uh but i personally think that especially for snesh is that they were i really enjoyed all the people that thought that they were special snowflakes they were like this is the way that i'm slightly doing my different keeper build and i'm like okay princess like i understand that you're trying but it's the same as every other build i've seen yeah totally like and and i'm hoping much like we talked about wascaven much like we talked about wascaven that maybe maybe like uh you know you talk about uh i don't know chaos warriors are pretty trashy but you can give marks of snesh to some pretty good armor juniors knights um you know even what you really want to do and throw up yeah pardon me all those things are losers insolent ash allegiance things that aren't heroes are losers period i know i agree with you i i i do understand the premise of uh of that i i just mean that maybe there'll be more some there'll be some more creative list building like it gives people like you who are obsessive of the army the opportunity to explore the list more than what is so rammed in your face and obviously being smashed that's a great thing that they do it might mean that you there's actually some uh some creative list building and and looking into the books uh more than you know than we saw previously which i think is a positive step potentially i still think keepers are good at 360 like like they're just there is also some scary threats as well or not the book has the depth to deal with everything but and you obviously don't seem to think there is but i actually think it's a good change for snesha in some ways in that people get to explore a little bit whether or not they explore and there's no actual answer as i feel that it's true is stormcast um i think it's a good it might be a good thing because when it was nerfed it was really only nerfed into like really good like and now it's you think it's really low and i think maybe it sits more in the middle maybe maybe i think i think the stats will bear out like i've watching going to can con with just those that one set of nerfs and watching the slanesh armies play watching them just get like peeled like a bad grape okay off of the table uh was was formative to my opinion admittedly as well as my own experiences but again i'm not actually bitter about it i'm not i'm super cool with it it's fine because if it's wrong it'll just change again like we'll just get our points back that you mentioned like the help it abomination in his minus 20 points do you remember that that was just subtracting out the points they added because they made here because he was originally 220 and they made him 240 for like reasons we can't comprehend right the top board deserved it that's why yeah so like we'll get there you know what i mean like it's it's fine okay so i'm not actually bitter i i am i i do like things like playing with arkea and i liked my arkea unless very much not only had one key print you know so whatever it's fine need a need a burrito okay so uh and and yes there are some slaves heroes that are probably worth it and bring all those into like a lurid haze invaders you got something that's probably decent uh great need a burrito let's move on past points let's talk about some other just core rule stop real quick i think we can just hit these fast because i think we're all gonna be positive on them single dpr or ward as we now know they're called yeah because anvil apotheosis calls it ward yeah that's not the official name and there's no more sorry robby can't fight it their words it's okay i have their words it's okay i think i haven't read it so i don't get it doesn't exist to me look two is what they do is they write ward on the war scroll in bold and then then you've got me then you've got me then you have a rule that like is referenced in one place and then all over the place and you don't have to have slightly different wordings for no reason between books and time periods weird maybe there's a little bit of homogenization danger but i think you can avoid that slippery slope you know there you go so but do any of us dislike this change no i know word no i like it i feel like it's a fine and reasonable rule to have i i think i advocated for it on a few shows over the years because it's just kind of a sensical choice yeah um i will say that when people read the screenshot of it um most of the people that initially were celebrating it uh incorrectly devised what it actually did so that was hilarious like they like they would have a picture of the rule and the picture contained the words so and they're they're like sharing it so conceivably they've read it and they're like they're like finally you know stone horns aren't going to get their armor save and the five up and finally d okay is balanced and well this really hurts miracle and i'm like none of the above actually right sure except in the very very very weird corner cases within nergal like it's not actually super common but yes right right right and it doesn't i mean it doesn't affect wound transfers like verminous valor that gets around it city retain you what's the necromancer ability so like those are yeah those are kind of you know prime rib right now everybody wants those i suppose is the new is the new thing we assume it doesn't affect those because it seems to be clearly a different wording the FAQ could maybe they intended for it to hit those and they just failed to type the words like that's possible noise i mean that was rob's noise yes that's me laughing at you i just everything you say i'm just like i love it carry on so but who does this rule really hurt like it it doesn't happen as much as apparently people seem to think it does it's a good rule to have because it's just a clean rule to have for the game sure right um but it does it does kind of it does kind of only affect death and then some weird slays the darkness stuff yeah and it affects uh death as a grand alliance which for the most part is uh is looking kind of rough it doesn't really hit obr i mean they got their shield tilt for mortal wounds i suppose plus the six up but that wasn't even really necessarily a thing it it uh no i agree i think overall it's actually kind of language that was okay for the show go on go on talk about the ghoul king so anyway go on sure rob any any thoughts any negative on this are you all right with this one all good all good don't care it's fine yeah right whoever's hurt by it i don't care like it's fine i think it's mostly not actually as impactful as people think zero three endless spells seems fine seems positive enough to me anybody negative on this i've played against 10 endless spells and um i'm i'm generally cool with whatever happens and if stuff is really toxic i usually just find it neat or interesting this isn't the case for most people so a lot of the old you know you're in endless spell prison and you can't move people probably didn't like that so curtailing that is probably a positive thing yep oh just to answer something in the comments real quick somebody said that the multiple dpr thing hits croak it doesn't if we if the body guard exception is separate right yeah so like because as it stands right now it seems like the body guard thing of a wound transfer yeah you're passing off from this rule yeah there's no negate it's just putting it on someone else and it happens before you're applying the wound and it specifically says when you allocate it right because traditionally the way that it's worked is that you can pass off and if you don't pass off then you can work safe yeah yeah right yeah so uh so like again barring some kind of FAQ which could certainly come out and say no no no we meant these things uh we meant these things too right and okay that's how it works now right well how would you feel about that though how would i feel about that if that was the thing i still wouldn't care i'd be super i'd be super and you're like no you don't understand no re-rolling no wound transfers how do you feel about it now um first of all no word no word should ever be re-rolled one of the worst things in the world ever is blessing okay like words just shouldn't be a re-rollable thing they shouldn't write that in there uh and the uh so like that's fine and then the either either a bodyguard or a thing no seems wonderful yes please like i don't like these things and i don't like stacking these things so just have one of them is fine right and so oh that's true i guess he can get the extra six up from the actual fairer like the actual six up true word i don't mind i don't mind position or play though like i don't mind like when it's just uh ability plus artifact equals x i find that obviously a huge negative but like i need to keep x within x like holding within 12 or something um not chained daisy chained out like i've just got to be within 12 like a daisy chained unit out but a little bit of position a little bit of positional play it's kind of interesting like in some ways for for bonuses like the retinue like passing off wounds to the saurus guard sort of situation it's kind of like especially like late game it makes you make choices which i think sometimes can be interesting whether or not that balances out versus like just being a bit obnoxious i'm not sure but i i don't mind them introducing some play on tabletop sure yeah i agree there is a distinction there that's important yes where the bodyguard makes you actually move to two units have to be present for the bodyguarding to work right it's very different than just like it's pretty good yeah yeah it is it's it's a lot different than said though than say like some kind of scaven vermin lord that's like four up rerolling and then five up and then five up and then five up again if you really feel like it right so sure okay cool uh let's see uh triumphs went back from i guess we decided we did need six triumphs we only need three but it's the three good ones in my opinion the only one i think that's lost that's kind of a shame is the commandability one where you can spend the triumph to whatever so obr is pleased they couldn't spend it anyway sure sure i mean like i'll say this KO is disappointed by the new triumphs yeah reroll i mean you still have i think what you'd often be choosing not always but often right you've got reroll hits you've got reroll wounds and you've got reroll saves that's that's the new three if memory serves up yes yeah those are the new three but what i'm saying is is that like before you could spend your triumph like because they specifically try tied to KO a bit like command ability or the allegiance ability to triumphs yeah that causes a problem sure sure it means that as the triumphs change that ability gets better or worse or better or worse right and this time it got worse yeah that's fair all right anybody else feel this was it was bad i feel like it best it was like neutral or good sure yeah i mean it helps me i only wanted the first three anyway and i have to go for triumphs all the time because they're buffs yeah yeah they're they're they're look if you're playing ogres it's all about playing roulette so you gotta go for it yeah it's the damage casino baby that's right gotta roll those sevens absolutely okay uh let's see i think that's most of the sort of generic stuff i wanted to talk about what's that kill points well i'm gonna talk about that in terms of the in in terms of the yeah like the auxiliaries and that stuff i'll i think we frame through the lens of the battle plans because i think it's not meaningful without that so uh speaking of battle plans why don't we move to those all right all right uh i think i'm actually really uh really excited about these new battle plans i think these were these were these are leaning in the direction of what i was saying needed to happen with the battle plans some weeks back when i was saying that what we need is a secondary way to get victory points so again if you've ever played like the coalition of death multiplayer scenarios of the triumph and treachery multiplayer scenarios or any of those kinds of things that have come out in previous ghbs there are generally multiple paths to victory which include like stand on a thing or do a thing and you directly earn victory points printed as part of this scenario okay which is what i wanted to see like another way to get victory points besides just stand on the thing and it gives you a set amount and that's actually what we got here with some of the battle plans where like if you have a leader you get an extra point if you have a monster you get an extra point or if you have a battle line you get an extra point like there's some of that stuff going on but there was actually some pretty big changes here across the board uh before we get into the specifics what's your gentlemen what's your thoughts on the uh on on the battle plans mostly positive most negative you like the changes uh i like them mostly okay like the new i also yeah i also like them i think uh i think they've started to move forward which is nice it's sometimes a little bit jarring isn't it when you read the structural stuff like we've talked about battle plans dpr zero three and the spells and you think well done boys you guys are really paying attention yeah and then always always the juxtaposition is the points like you're like you're like who are you who does this and who are you who does that like talk to each other because i think they're pretty well considered generally and it also looks like and it feels like um there's a bigger push to more bodies on the board which i find quite interesting um generally more objectives in this spread than less yeah yeah there's more pure number of objectives and uh i like how the deployment zones require much less geometry to and stairways of dice to put down after measuring to like build your deployment zone on one half it's it's a lot of just it's a lot of squares and lines all the way across the board which is huge because setting up to play a game is simply annoying and the last time that takes the better yeah i i your point rob can not be understated that there is an actual quite dramatic increase on the average number of objectives in these scenarios in these 12 scenarios yeah which is a push toward i don't know if bodies is the right answer but msu is certainly the answer right because like having it's a push away from having just like three blocks big blocks and then nothing else that can hold anything or something a lot of these have six scenarios are two big blocks let me say that way three would probably find having two big blocks of something is going to be challenging in maybe some of these scenarios because there's a lot of these with five six and so on yeah and an army with two foot heroes and that's it is going to find itself struggling on a lot of battle plans yeah more than just duality like it used to be right yep all right so let's just let's just burn through these real quick and give some opinions uh knife to the heart it's knife to the heart it's still knife to the heart it was always knife to the heart and it's still knife to the heart and it's one of my favorite scenarios because it's how you separate the the wheat from the chaff uh and yes yes finns preach it it's the best also watching two people like commentate another game and i have to the heart is so fun yeah it's like a take like it you know i love cowboy films it's just two people like yeah absolutely gonna go every knife to the heart is the end of the good the bad the ugly every time yeah or or the weird sort of cia film where the bad guy and cia agent shake hands and collaborate on a win is any of those two could be yeah yeah could be yeah i also play an army that can win this easily so i like just thank you guys i agree nice hey look i want i i the last turn when i ran my iron jaws and i won this in in round five i think is whenever it happened and i won it with iron jaws so this is like old rules so i'm just saying you can get it done try hard oh you didn't you didn't have you didn't even need a hand right no i had no hand that was not a thing yeah yeah so you can get there with just people who run it can happen hey i yeah i didn't say it with daughters but that i mean it's all i really i really respect the so the self-knowledge that i appreciate you living well i steamboat with my own daughters once i had driven them from the board by murdering them yeah i thought i'd see you take that as a count i mean i was like the good and the bad and the ugly except every cut too was just a desert there was no one there on the other side that's fair yes absolutely okay uh total conquest where we see uh one of the first additional items uh total conquest i i actually quite like as it's an interesting setup as well the you know sort of like cross boxes in the corners still turn them very tournament friendly by the way slight thing i love all the measurements being quite detailly placed on the map now that's really nice like everything having engines everywhere it's super cool yeah they tell you how to set the army up in the box for setting the army up i like it yeah 2020 we did it but there it is a it doesn't matter we it doesn't matter when we got there we're here now it's fine it's right so obviously total conquest has a new rule that all the same rules like one player or one victory point for each objective you control if you take one previously controlled by them you get a bonus victory point but as well if a player controls an objective while there is a friendly leader unit within six inches of it they score one additional victory point again interesting on a four objective scenario and a cool way to get extra victory points interesting yeah that's that's a brilliant final rule there the player controls an objective while there is a friendly frost lord on stone horn and six of it i like that that's a good one also also frost lord on stone horn uh big base and there's no clarifications whether or not a hero can cap the bonus point twice right that is correct as it stands right now you could in many of these where it says if an a is within the objective that a could be technically within the realm of multiple within six inches of multiple objectives and so theoretically give the bonus to both of them because that that is an FAQ like a unit can only can you know or models can only control our objectives we can corn dragon this one or absolutely yeah like all the way across it's possible right i don't know because he's both a leader and a monster so he's actually double dipping on these bonuses yeah he's done that's right because all right uh battle for the pass okay so battle for the pass is is battle for the pass um yep big wins here big wins almost as big of wins as knife to the heart from my experience the problem with battle for the pass will always and continue to be the set or like the setup for this is very tournament unfriendly right like don't get me wrong i like yeah it's the french but they've changed but they've changed the deployment zones haven't they uh they're still they're like uh not pointed now isn't it right now not point no new new battle for the past it's it's the french flag yeah perfect perfect see that's better because that pointy deployment was awful it was yes so that is a nice change from that but now it's going back to just like okay it's it's just hard to play to turn it where the tables are back to back with each other right where they're right next to each other just well thankfully we won't be dealing with that for years this is a good point so i guess yep other than that it's battle for the pass all right star strike uh we're back to just three drops no more are we rolling the 2d6 now we're back to just one two three even odds on the spread boom well i loved the idea but the problem is the execution of 2d6 doesn't actually work because what it meant was there's this thin bar in the middle where they were extremely likely to be it was bell curving yeah yeah yeah it was statistically but that's like the the awesomeness of warhammer in the the 12 inch charge occurs you know the five ones on the two up save happen and sometimes it lands on the 12 or on the two and like i actually think that that's slight different if you're gonna have something random like have it at least be like there being some potential like that risk versus reward mechanic is much lower than this versus the 12 and i think that that is sometimes the very beauty of the game is that sometimes mad stuff happens and that's kind of fun tells great stories um uh and i don't think that that's probably a very off competitive just like it's not i loved it for the same reason because we all love when that happens when the boxies drop or the snakes drop right like it's just it's it's unexpected it's cool may i offer a compromise please okay let's go back to more than three spots let's go back to like six or eight or something like that but put it on the d66 you know i'm talking about the d66 right oh so even distribution again yeah you see you can even distribution it out yeah and and so you see it's still be unusual for it to go to the outer edges because you have like eight spots and there's only two results out of eight that are the outer edges so just statistically it is more likely to be in the middle six than the outer two right that's just kind of how math works but you could have an even spread distribution while still maintaining the unusual holy crap one shot to the edge of the board and no one was there right just a thought think about it okay gw loves using the d66 and i love the d66 makes me think of a plane more time for a moment or more time for a moment and i always like that scorched earth can we talk about maybe the biggest like in my opinion the biggest or second biggest battle plan change oh it's good yeah okay this one is crazy as far as the change goes like this completely alters the way scorched earth is played because everybody knows like so the trick with scorched earth is there's four it's an eight objective game which is already nuts right and what you're all always been trying to do is good to their side of the board and on round two snake something and burn it right that's what you that's what you're doing you're trying to burn their stuff okay cool we all we all know how scorched earth rolls however this new rule so at the end of their turns each player scores one victory point for each objective they control cool same as always no problem i've got my four you've got your four life goes on right however starting from the second battle round at the end of each of their turns a player can raise an objective they control an enemy territory an objective in enemy territory cannot be raised while there is a leader unit within six inches of it cool wow that is like massively different and by the way like it's worth saying this um that condition isn't restricted in ko because ko like the people being in bones only counts for taking control of an objective but not like objective all right so if you have an admiral in a bow right as long as he's within range of that objective you can't cap it yep that's right so who do you think that this was geared towards trying to help do you think it was trying to like try towards ogres and ko in like you recognize that they don't have a lot of bodies necessarily on the board in these instances so like give them some sort of mechanic to help defend uh i don't think they were thinking about specific armies whatsoever i agree i think they were i think they played a game of scorched earth and somebody ran across the board and just like lit stuff on fire even though they had guys near it and they're like that's bs and that's how we got this which is a good change so it's a good change i'm not making fun of them i mean i am but you are but it's great to hear you do it same thing yes it is a good change and what's interesting is it's also incentive for like if this shows up in a lot of tournament packs it's incentive for like the five wound you know for having more little heroes who can stand around and guard these points yeah okay and that's actually an interesting counterplay to a meta that seems quite hostile to those little heroes right and who might have just evaporated very hostile uh so it's also pretty good answer to this new rule actually yeah sure sure the meta seems to be answering this rule pretty pretty sure meta meta pre-answered this rule yeah oppression but i do love the fact that i can have a unit up there and then have these little and then have a leader and sort of back up and make sure that even if somebody gets over my unit they still can't burn it right that i can hold out that extra turn and then bring something else into score this is just doubling and tripling down on that msu thing not necessarily msu but just not like two massive blocks of things and one monster and that's your army like there's a lot of objectives yeah these battle plans and then of course and then standard if you burn one of theirs you get d3 of course uh and the objective is removed however if a player controls an objective in enemy territory while there is a friendly leader unit within six inches of it they score one additional victory point when it's raised so if your own leaders are going across the board and also burning it you're getting a d3 plus one i mean this is just a wise choice if a frost lord is near it that's uh yeah that's just a great a great change yeah i love the changes to scorched earth i'm actually super stoked about it i think this is really really good like honest honest answer it's also like based on the spread of missions or battle plans sorry it's actually like it feels like it's a bonus to like monster heroes oftentimes because obviously like scoring extra points and doing extra things obviously the loss of roam artifacts generally tends to affect those monster heroes but then the the largest monster heroes or the supercasters specifically like in a gash i know arkyon's not a supercaster but still those kind of large centerpiece models not lariel not you ever um you know they you you you not you zero points yeah i would zero points for lariel people on the pipe plate in defense of lariel but also the mech is also on mall crush and arkyon people on the pipe plate yeah your base is more than six inches wide yeah so there is a sweet spot where you can stand and those heroes can actually protect two objectives and or gain bonus point to two objectives if there are other units are going forward and burning them anyways go ahead rub no i was just saying that it like it's um like there's a not i wouldn't say a monumental shift but there's at least like a a nudge or like a thought that you think actually a large monster hero is might be not more viable because they're already generally quite viable anyway when they were taken but there's room for them to be in the list and actually if your army has the ability to have them in your list uh and they don't suck bloodthirsters um then you you have an advantage and some books don't necessarily have those things in their list or they don't want to take those things in the list because they suck if that makes sense do you see what i'm trying to get at there's a bit of disparity in the battle plans now there was always a disparity in the battle plans because battle line units normally uh were the crux of a very good army most traditionally um uh and bodies on the board is always strong in battle plan games anyway so maybe this is a counterbalance maybe to battle uh well to hordes or you know bricks of men being quite as effective right if that you know i mean there's a kind of counterplay there absolutely yeah as is the next one so focal points uh i've always liked focal points i think it's actually a very fun mission uh and focal points is more or less focal points it stayed largely the same except that if a player controls an objective well there is a friendly monster or friendly behemoth unit within six inches of it they score one additional point three point yeah another wise choice here i wish they had put one in specifically uh or i wish they had done maybe i don't know i'm i'm on the fence on this might be too strong but i kind of wish there had been a bonus one point for a non-hero monster somewhere to actually like that would be one reason to play any of those in the whole game correct that's like non-hero monsters have very little point right now or non-hero monster non-hero behemoth right like that would actually give them a scenario where they would have like i'm not asking them to be the only one that can control the objective that's not what i'm saying i'm saying a scenario where they give a bonus point or something if they're there because right now they just don't have enough incentive and again monster hero is still the superior choice right so just monster but hey the cygore can get you a bonus point so how about that there you go nice dude now you can lose two to eighteen but you're not getting zeroed no you're not getting getting doughnut all right better part of valor also six objective scenario obviously vocal points five so just pressing home the like the large number of objectives better part of valor's scoring remained the same but it now has the normal rules for controlling an objective are not used in this battle instead a player controls an objective if a friendly battle line unit finishes a move within three inches of the objective unless that move was a retreat the player loses control of that objective if the battle line unit is not within three inches or is destroyed and then on and on from there right so better part of valor changed to only battle line units for controlling big change this shows up in a lot of tournament packs in my experience like people like better part of valor it's a tough one it's a good it's a good spread up in deployment for tournaments it's six objectives which stretches a lot of armies i think this is a huge change this might be my candidate for biggest change what are you doing to think i would agree with that uh yeah yeah i think like it does the opposite of what i just said about monster heroes right sure like um and i think this is the this is and has always been the skill or maybe the interesting element is when we read all of these out you think that's a nice spread there but an an event is normally five or six yeah and or sometimes it's three uh and picking out those right ones in that combination you know the right recipe of missions uh is quite telling especially if you double it up with realms if you wanted to double it up with realms you really start to create like a very custom effect on the meta and so toes have to i guess be careful um that they don't choose too many of x or too many y if that makes sense but then because because this is the only one that's about buying right well there are two reference battle line this and then the next oh okay so then so there's your swing like there's your swing votes right one one event is this next event is the other and you're playing one or the other every time and i don't mind that like it just you know it hones in uh and you know that you'll be playing one or the other or sometimes maybe you'll play with both like it depends on the to and i think that's kind of i would want to know ahead of time because this probably changes my list right in more than anything ever has before absolutely like if you have better part of valor and shifting objectives for example because that's the other battle line one both in there and you don't have the leader based scenarios in your tournament pack that is actually a big change on your list writing flip that story it is very different right yeah how many so i think i think they're in this book 18 or 12 12 and then the six on a course they'll say okay and so out of 12 there's two that talk about battle line for special conditions and so you'd think that battle line like terribly important because it's you know a sixth of the battle lines but every tournament is going to have one of them so actually it is important right it's just something to think about like how many times it appears in the ghp versus how many times it's appearing in tournaments rob kind of touched on that with his comment and i think it bears repeating any other thoughts on that one it's good it's good it's fun yeah shifting objectives going through it quick uh small deployment zone three objectives the one that matters shifts cool cool uh the important part is if a player controls an objective while there is a friendly battle line unit within six inches of it they score one additional victory point this is not the two take this is the bonus once again rob's point is well well well considered here because battle line units will often be able to spread between multiple points and then you often have two they're usually next to each other like sometimes you get the outer points but oftentimes you'll get you know like the center one in the right one and the other player has the left one or something like that and if you spread a battle line unit between the two or something like that boom two victory points as it stands right now two bonus bp that's a big deal in shifting objectives wherein the score does not often get it doesn't get run up super high so yeah yeah like i would want to more more than any more than ever before these missions make me think i want to know missions ahead of time yeah yeah like if i if i just turn up an event and they just pick three leader ones and i've got even if i have a battle line army because it's just how i build my army i like i feel negatively stimmied for no particular reason i'm just like okay like i could play ogres and then everything's fun everything's fun all the time playovers come to the side of destruction rob it's fun over here we have snacks i've never had this feeling before i'm not used to it it makes me feel uncomfortable i'm an ogre player who's reading the new battle plans for the ghb and after everyone i'm like oh that's that's okay for me yep that's good i don't know how to deal with this i'm not equipped it's a strange world to live in uh places of arcane power is basically places of arcane power deployment zone is interesting a little bit except oh i like this one yeah except well the deployment changed and they fixed it yeah they fixed it finally yeah was leader-based no yeah it is leader-based but it's always been leader-based yes place of arcane power was always destroyed or not within three so finally they they got it right they got ready to set up yes yeah yeah it's always been it's always been it was originally like it was originally some silly thing about wizards and whatever whatever but now it's just leaders yeah yes yep i think it was the artifact of power or a wizard right yeah i think that's what this launch was yes but now it's just leaders and yeah who's gonna have artifacts of power now come on you're gonna have one you'll you yeah you'll have them they just won't be any good okay uh blades edge the new one did you gentlemen this is cool all right so people talk about this it's just brand new tom you can go ahead yeah so uh blades edge is basically a six objective scenario where um the objectives themselves are 12 inches apart from one another like right on the center line meaning that you can be in combat with somebody capping the other objective because it like extends out six from each of the centers so like models can be basically the capping zone touches uh so this is really good for like KO pistols the only scenario we can only think through the lens of our own army apparently yes indeed indeed you also get to mess with the objectives yeah you get to remove that your opponents and they get to remove your well i suppose it depends on but you get to you get to remove them and so you remove their best one and you gotta assume that they're gonna remove your best one depending on what their clever plan is and that's just interactive and interesting yep and so i like it even without thinking about it at all well it's really interesting how you get to remove them so so let's read this because this is this is really relevant so obviously you set up the six objectives three on each side right and and the removal is at the start of each battle round after the first so in other words two three four five the player taking the second turn in that battle round can pick one objective on the battlefield and remove it from play a priority choice finally yes this is a huge real decision yes yeah this is what i want the prior role to always be like a weight of one thing versus another so more this stuff and i'm happy yeah and it's all just standard one victory point per objective so like yeah you can going seconds means you get to rip an objective away right you can remove one of your opponents that they have that they've dedicated to over on the right side and you're nowhere near and they safely control your life now that's gone bye bye yeah but we're all we're all already playing to give the turn away right that's oh yeah that's how we're playing i mean we're already doing that if i was going to take a turn i would try to take points away from them anyway right so right i could just not take the turn and automatically take points away from that seems good yeah yeah it rewards it rewards already thinking further ahead which is great really cool yeah i like this one yeah i like this one quite a lot actually i don't know how to i haven't got to play it yet because i don't um but i'm i'm super excited about this one it's gonna be fun to reach across the table to their best one be like i'll just take that right there yeah you don't need that one that's no no more points for you okay um it's also interesting obviously because uh you're taking it away before they get to score it on their right by you going second like timing wise that's actually what's happening which is cool yeah yeah okay now that i've taken away the entire thing you were excited about doing in your turn which is scoring some points you can go ahead and take a turn go ahead yeah that's a nice anvil over there it'd be a shame if something happened to the objective all right uh okay next up total commitment it's total commitment it should be gotten rid of it's still bad great moving on don't put it don't put it in tournament facts thank you next forcing the hand the other new one uh i'm not sure i love the objective setup on this one it's a little janky and weird this is the one exception to my praise at the beginning to be sure you gotta you gotta get out the you gotta get out the triangle and stuff on this one to get everything in there right we're just playing really big tetris at this point yeah it's like the tetris block setup and then the objectives like live on this weird two lines again it's a six objective scenario right again so a lot of six objective scenarios between cutting duality which was this odd man out two objective scenario and relocation or a one objective scenario and adding in two six objective scenarios like the average shoots up just right there um yeah i mean it's fine the uh the way this one works is i'll just read the text because it's kind of weird so there's three objectives per side effectively the map shows which objectives belong to which player at the start of each player's turn the opposing player picks one of their own objectives to be the primary objective for that turn for example if it's player a's turn player b picks one of the player b objectives label on the map to be the primary objective that turn and so you're picking the one that then if they get a hold of they get more points yeah that's the easiest way to pick the come get me one yes so you're gonna pick your most shielded one that's like the normal iq play let's let's play the big brain game here okay 100 iq plays choose your most defended one right exactly then you go up a step from there and then you get into the trap placement right where you're like i'll pick this one because it's so appealing to you that i want you to move there and take that which will then weaken you know your own saw or let me kill you well because you come into my army and then i can just smash that unit and then there's the super big brain play which is that and i'm going to pull your army apart and go take your objective because i moved you off by trapping you into taking this one that you you couldn't resist the allure of the extra points yes because when they go for an objective they have to come from somewhere that's right unless there are summoning army but yes most of the time that's true yeah yes i look forward to next year when this uh these jagged sawblades are just a line straight across the table yeah this could have been 21 that's what it's gonna be it could have been a line why like please stop with the tetris stop with this stop with the opposing elves nobody likes it because then actually drawing the 12 inch line on the jagged l is like so super duper annoying uh so just please just make it a flat line like please okay anyways rob thoughts on this one on forcing the hand uh yeah i don't think i have anything to add uh that you guys have although uh for commenting and streaming can't wait to see people make the choices absolutely like there's an addition anything that adds additional drama points for me is always really exciting um and i and i think actually that will be really fun to second guess what they're doing obviously probably wrongly uh and then um yeah like interact with that i i think that's exciting i like more interactivity is always good something i think that we all hope the end the spoils would do you know with the priority role choices yeah not the case uh so try their hearts was in the right direction like we need to yeah i agree this role more have more thought put into this you know whether you choose it or not so i i like those attempts i like even more than they succeed yep yeah all right quick aside let's have a let's have a fast conversation rob you you're on pause for a minute because you said you haven't read this so we're gonna do this fast because i don't want to leave rob out this is the anvil of apotheosis oh no you can throw me in i'll just okay okay sorry carry on you're all right enter as you will of course you're muted it's over you're done we're canceling rob no it's fine uh here's the thing so anvil of apotheosis we're going to talk about it in detail next week during the narrative part because it's technically a narrative thing i just want to very quick get a quick temperature check on using this in match play because here's my answer as it's currently printed now it should not be used in match play it needs fixes yes those fixes being like probably a hundred point minimum hero yeah uh making ethereal more expensive limiting the command abilities to be spamming or doing something with ethereal doesn't have to be more expensive what's your ethereal fix so everybody's not ethereal it's just my hot take don't worry about it fair enough my ethereal fix is deal with it it's not a problem these are wineries sure it is just one hero one ethereal hero this is more just like it's kind of boring design when you have and maybe then people have to choose mortal wounds or something what a new concept weird i would just like it to either be a more expensive or b you can't combine it with something else and but it's still as cheap as it is or c it like caps at four plus or you know whatever like there's a couple interesting ways you could go about doing it so it's not the problem is right now your first points you spend are like i'm this species and i'm ethereal okay let's see what else i can do right depends i suppose but yeah logically i guess is usually i'm this i'm this species and i got this command ability right i'm done it's over yeah the ultra cheap hero needs to be hedged out hence the hundred point minimum yeah that's that's it even that's a little like arguable but i think a hundred is fair enough you know if it's going to be arbitrary anyway right like a hundred seems fair for sure it would also need a standard base size chart by the yeah they would right on tom thoughts anything else we're missing here i don't know uh i'm i'm i'm hesitant to pass judgment on it yet let me say it that way i mean that's fair yeah uh there's also a question of like will they ever put in the ability to gain other sub keywords like you can gain your large keywords but you can't gain like megaboss you can't get married or skyfarer you know like so and not all armies care about that right right like many armies don't have those sub keywords that necessarily matter right right so some armies can capitalize on this stuff a lot more you have a mark of chaos should probably be worth points you know i mean so in some armies it's good enough to be worth maybe even 30 or 40 points in some armies they don't care so it's yeah yeah they would they would have to do a lot of work on it and public service announcement you can't get it to up save three up is the cap yes and shield doesn't doesn't break that rule yeah rub what would you like to say on the anvil do you want to see everybody start bringing a bunch of crazy wacky heroes into match play and making your making your your like making a nightmare for you for discussing balance well so when i was 21 i had a friend called mike um and i was excited about where this is going okay hit me everybody story time go so mike was a tear away let me tell you like me and mike got into all sorts of trouble um and some of that and most of it i don't think i actually i can maybe even legally talk about um uh but he was one of the most fun guys that i've ever had in my life but at a certain point in my life i had to be i had to stop being up with him till four in the morning um and you know i just had to stop answering calls for him because he was just not helpful to my life in any way shape or form and i sometimes think about mike now and i think it would be cool to hang out with him and that's how i feel about the anvil of apotheosis i'm just like i get it it's like a great time yeah it's really cool but it's gonna ruin my evening um or maybe my next day and i don't think that's necessarily true uh i think i think the thing about it is why does it have to be in match play it's awesome i think it's really clever that games workshop did it i think it's rad like i'm into it just don't like the conversation about having to have it in match play seems a bit like like i'm just gonna shoehorn this in because we can it's like match play is already pretty fun like have something else that's not match play that's like a great laugh between you and your mates and you're just part of it and it's do you know what i mean i like if everyone was like we want this in match play i'd be like fucking crack on like that's all surface rain um i'd be like uh i'd just be like speedy 13 year old one yeah it's okay i'm really sorry i'd just be like crack on uh have a good time um uh i feel really bad for me now i've lost my train of thought you're okay you're fine you're your point being like not everything needs to be for every part of the game right which is a perfectly legit point i would also say there's a difference between like you could say here's the way to use it in match play with you and your friends but it doesn't necessarily need to be in attorneys like you can also split that that can be split apart you can say like there's competitive play and there's match play that you and your friends play where you both use points to just have a game right and that's yeah yeah that that's it like it's awesome like i think it's wicked like i'm like super hype about it and i think a lot of people think that i'd be like really against it i just think it's quite obvious that it shouldn't be a part of match play and and maybe i'm talking from a position of like it's not obvious at all how dare you decide for everyone that's not what i'm doing i'm just like it's a really cool fun like the sky's the battle thing uh whatever that is that sounds really rad too i'm really not obviously ever whatever that thousand-point game is we're never talking about that not that forget what that's called it's called a fight fight or two cinemas like two cinemas for finding oh meeting games and so and that's my point about it like everyone's been going mad about it and i think it's been so creative and everyone's been having loads of fun and i'm like that should be more of that in the hobby just i don't necessarily feel like it has to be a part of match play that's all it's the ultimate sales pitch for narrative yes and if if narrative was a person or a company with pr they should be working really hard to like this is everyone's gateway drawn into hey look at all this cool stuff we get to do in narrative you should consider narrative as one of the three main pillars of the game like tw has always been saying right yes yes yes many people consider match play to be synonymous with simply age of sigmar right because that's that's what mostly they play and probably what most people play so like while anvil of hobby else is cool but i want to play it in the actual game you know what i mean sure it is and that could be from game type chauvinism there or something like that or they just want to play there they're wicked toys and stuff it might be a little too crazy for match play but a lot of crazy stuff happens in a os i don't know yeah true if it if it stayed in narrative and then narrative like took off because of it i'd be pleased uh like holy wars is so sweet and it was sweet enough that now i'm now i'm a narrative player so yeah there you go yeah i mean ultimately i do think there's a distinction here like i said between match and competitive play right like if you and your friends play points yeah for sure then that's fine use those guides and there just needs to be i think there could still there does need to be changes because there's like three or four probably broken things on it that are just like unhealthy and will be kind of unfun even with you and your friends so just like have whether they make it official or you just have that conversation amongst yourselves cool beans right like done and dusted you don't need to wait on them to update it just don't be a bad actor i guess yeah my statement there yeah yeah sorry let me just sit my very not warm tea and narrative players would never do that would they laugh because the most unbalanced games i've ever seen or been a part of were open play first of all the most brutally unfair and gamesmanship games i've ever seen were open play and the second most brutally unbalanced games are a narrative but that's by design that's the point right yes that's not even a counterpoint that is like that's the whole uh that's the whole thing match play is supposed to be as fair as they feel like making the game and everything else is as wacky as they care to sure so good conversation like i said we're gonna dive into the end of apotheosis next week because i do really love it i think it is an awesome idea i think it's incredible i think it's one of the best things they've made in a long long long time i just i love it top to bottom oh yeah there are definite like challenges with it both where some stuff is too good and some stuff is too bad um as you pointed out already hey well like being mounted on not a monster is actually dramatically overcosted and horrible uh but like you're either foot or monster for the most part but um but like that being said i uh i'm super stoked for it and we're gonna dig deep deep deep into it next week so cool i just wanted to have a discussion about it through the match play lens here for yeah like in our competitive new rule you have to name the character so of course official rule yeah that should just be a rule evenly match play you should always be naming your people yeah like oh yeah even war scroll builder lets you change the names of your people like it's a thing you can retype their name on the i don't because it's annoying for the to look at gore blat dwarf nibbler and be like okay what yeah i just i just put in purpose now okay it's a house current right but sure i put in paren's next to the thing because i because i care about my tears i agree that's a good it's a good point uh all right realms let's talk some realms boys realms so as mentioned uh there has been a terrible tragedy and uh that tragedy is the removal of realm artifacts so if you didn't watch the show i did with rob that's perfectly fine uh we go into it deep there it's been about an hour on it so you can go watch that we're not gonna spend an hour on it here but i will say this the false choice that everybody talks in terms of is the only two options we're having all 84 realm artifacts in a book that nobody can access or having six garbo artifacts no one cares about in the new realm rules like those were the only two worlds we could live in folks it's a light switch those were it so i guess this is the better one uh no wrong false false false okay we could have just actually written 12 decent interesting realm artifacts two per realm and had them in a little tiny lower section on the bottom part of each realm page and called it a day and then still had this stuff to choose from that could actually enable and help a lot of different armies who a lot of armies now have heroes that just can't take artifacts these don't happen right other than these garbage artifacts which i don't even count they're just nothing they are nothing i'm not writing down anything about that artifact on when i say they can't take them i mean like there are they printed books where they put in heroes that cannot take artifacts in that book yeah like war changer the the war changer has he's one of that has zero like zero artifacts yep yep yep absolutely he's got two sticks fire bellio he's got the strongest artifacts ever boom boom you're strong now like what else do you need boom boom you're strong like great artifacts yeah fumble gave shaman fire bellio hero ogre yeah there's a there's a decent amount yes i have like less than zero like so one heroes that just can't take anything but like by the way giving my war changer or other heroes who can't take this stuff the ability to re-roll once to wound you can just go right to the door and walk outside and walk to your nearest ocean and walk in okay if you think that's anything i'm even gonna bother right down i will submit lists where it says two artifacts you know and i'll have them at one of two because i would rather take nothing and stand on principle than even write down that nothing burger of an artifact okay that's how strongly i feel about this i can't imagine so anyway uh so the realm artifacts are gone uh and i'm going to and all of the 40 to 50 percent armies that were using them as crutches to remain even in the fat middle are going to miss them i'm sure they'll enjoy their three percentage points that they lose just by losing this artifact so that's nice uh but beyond that we'll move on past the the artifact thing because i've i've gone on about this enough yeah i just have one please anybody else who wants to comment here i have one quick 40 to pour out for my boy sort of japan yeah yeah yeah it was a mean that kind of did something it was pretty much just for fun silly so i'm sad it's gone legitimately so the end fair enough i liked when the fish on an idol on's base could use it i was working on modeling that that was the best before they fixed it they specifically said you couldn't do that later and i was very sad because i had the little ealy fish with a tiny knife and a teeth and that was the sort of japan i i missed the sort of yes like the i missed the sort of judgment so much already yeah into the game the ability to actually have some mortal wounds it was your choice that wasn't the best choice but you just added it to a list because you're like i'm gonna have a more fun list instead of a yeah so i'm so glad that it's gone after i experienced it in the hands of an epitome oh sure yes on epitome isn't it it is fun it's super fun on epitome uh so the but anyway enough about those artifacts let's talk about the realms themselves uh they're okay pretty good yeah sure realm command is either kind of nothing or arguably too good i don't know but you know you're adding one to hit roles you're adding one to save roles of the spell it seems powerful it's fine they're all just fine yeah but they're also there they're also nothing right like i guess that's exactly right yeah that is it right so that so it also it begs the question and i know i've said this already uh maybe not here but it just begs the question like what's the point right like you know like i get it you want a picture that you're in the realm which is awesome like so have a board that's made a fire which is cool but if i'm not if i'm playing on like a grassy field and they're like this is now the realm of fire but like i get it that it's not all volcanoes i know some people were insulting me the other day i when i picture the realm of fire i obviously just picture a swath of a broken desert desert by something literally everything can't be on fire right but most things can though yeah a lot of yeah but yeah so i don't know there's probably green fields somewhere in the realm of fire but i struggle sometimes to um and this is like my allegiance ability for chaos dwarfs just in case anyone doesn't know is skies of burning fire uh and so whenever a flying thing would move around i was like oh picture fireballs in my head uh and i had to picture that obviously in the ether so i get it i guess i get it it's a game of imagination but it does nothing right the realms do nothing effectively they do something as stated but i feel like it's an extra level of bookkeeping and with the auxiliaries thrown in maybe too much maybe too much in bookkeeping i think especially for newer people and like you could use them i guess i'm not too trusty the way like it's a bit like me yeah i mean go ahead go ahead okay uh yeah with the old with the omro uh with the old realm rules um it was a bit much actually for not for not too much for the most of the time where it's like all right we're playing in this room cool okay do you have a print out of all six of the spells all right let me look at those and that document with those six spells for that realm would be looked at for a few seconds like a thousand times per game during every single hero phase and or the book would be open to it and oh we forgot this the realms gave you it was just a little too much i think reference in the game for the most part and i see that they've simplified it that's neat but yeah i'm kind of i'm kind of like this is is just kind of extra stuff to be doing that is all sort of whatever i mean i'm not saying that the abilities aren't whatever like plus one the hit is good and the plus one the save thing like the they're going to affect the game sure it's just i wanted more i guess yeah can i can i make a suggestion different to the realms which i'd like to see in the future is a season like where ghp comes out and then here is a seasonal effect that's going to be on for the next year oh there you go a part of the part of the global narrative yeah like cool like season where it's just every yeah something's going on and it's on for a year and it's like cool so it's it's the same in every game it's an additional thing it's because of the meta narrative of the global story so i'm part of it that's rad yeah like i'm not i mean yeah i've been in line portance year and so that is doing this thing this year and oh we just released the all points book so it'd be great okay you know our cans meddling with whatever yeah that's that's a good idea and then just do it once a year just once a year we're done we're cool we're all learning we're all part of the story it will say maybe maybe involves people in the story a little bit it's like oh why is it like this because of this that's quite cool did you read this yeah i did oh that's quite fun like story right we like the story generally yeah so yeah yeah no i'm down for that uh yeah let's just burn through these real fast i just want to hit on some notes uh realm of fire everything gets volcanic so that's nothing that's just nothing that just might as well say every every uh every piece of terrain also has the ipsum lorem text uh realms here magic is fireball so that's fine the artifact is a joke so cool beans and uh the realm command ability is pretty good gets plus one to run in charge are you saying the best realm artifact is nothing i'm saying the best realm artifact is still nothing yes making a single hero double tap on sixes is not it by the way a thing that some armies just automatically already have and many heroes already have and like is highly duplicative with a lot of design yes i'm glad we stumbled upon that piece of design the cool thing of six has become two hits good times like maybe let's not use it everywhere yeah i was playing a four player game and all four armies it were different all had the majority of their units double tapping on sixes on the bright side no one ever forgot it which was nice oh okay so there you go uh that's what we need more of is more rolling yes uh chamon uh metal uh probably the best spell just straight up uh plus one to save oh yeah uh terrain features all but but paying that off all terrain features get entangling which is the the actual impactful worst terrain feature like that's something every terrain piece on the board extending out a one inch bubble of neg two to run in charge is a big deal yeah it's big that's a big it's really big uh their realm artifact changes rend egg one to to nothing doesn't even reduce it by one i know which would be maybe a thing right then i'd be like okay i'm in if it just reduced it by one i'd be like all right you made a good artifact and the realm command is uh one to hit so cool good stuff that's good i i like that i would use that yeah if they charge but still good a lot of people like charging it's good stuff make a anvil hero that does that you know 40 points there you go uh beasts uh wild form so plus two to run in charge better than than the other commandability but it is a spell everything gains deadly so who cares uh the artifact is you can reroll charge rolls for the bearer nice yeah super great they can all do that already they're a hero so good times i guess unless tackless is around spamming that spell then all of a sudden you look like you really made the big brain choice by taking that artifact yeah galaxy brand choice uh and then their commandability is you can make monsters fight a zero wounds on their table in fact fight as though they were at zero wounds on their table which is actually really cool and a great ability so i did that any thoughts on any of these so far uh they ripped off boulder heads awesome commandability to give it to everyone one six of the time sure it's on i mean this is the kind of thing that as soon as they wrote that they were like oh we're reusing that yeah i mean it was it was a brilliant rule to be fair like it was the perfect rule for that army so i mean other people get to experience the joys absolutely uh guy right oh good oh so i was gonna say the plus two to charge spell is like it's a spell but on those mega casters that already want to charge don't forget they're called spell doms not mega casters sorry yeah it's all right okay you feel strongly about this yeah okay i would i would i would argue with the stream doms uh about that at all yes i i agree like it's a big deal that's a big deal spell uh guy ran the realm of life is completely terrible so i'm excited that no one will ever go here this is how a laurel wins she makes her realm rule so boring and just like bad yeah people just don't want to go there and fight so clever until she's zero points and then we're all laughing i still say is that a meme that she should be zero and i wonder if that's i've been saying it i've been saying it for like four weeks i just think zero points just a terrain feature free i think it's fine i my argument for i know yours is a joke meme but my serious fix for her is she needs to be uh she needs to be a phoenix that works all the time so i know i'm i'm i'm seriously serious just making zero points yeah just like a zero point when i was thinking about easy ways to fix a lario i was actually i i arrived at the same place you did she should come back to life she's the god of life yeah she's your phoenix like when she dies the first time she comes back at full wounds set her up anywhere on the yeah but just the first time so you're not you're good and rob i'm going to put on a mask and walk around with surgical gloves on and i'm gonna play a real game of warhammer where my buddy sam in minneapolis has sylvanath i'm gonna let him play a laurel for zero points perfect i'm gonna i'll do a turn and report on it and we'll see if this is proper balancing or not thank you so much thank you thank you someone's willing to yeah that's all i want i just want to be heard i don't have to be right i just need to be heard thank you so much for testing so you know i'm gonna actually try it out there you go i do and then just you know like uh heish the realm of light uh gives you a second mystic shield spell okay cool that's fine i guess uh every terrain piece has mystical which uh no longer stacks with anything great so like all right that's cool i guess like everybody likes six upwards uh a terrible artifact lets you reroll hit rolls of one a thing you probably already do on most armies anyways for a hundred different reasons and uh your realm command is actually terrible so it doesn't matter it's just the most corner case situational thing and you'll never remember it when you need it so moving on uh death but but that's your artifact choice for that one off for that one beast uh chaos sub faction right yes it is yeah apply the cover modifier to the save rolls yeah fantastic that's power and worth a command point zero at the time yeah uh death uh kind of interesting they can have a they have a spell that can give plus one casting rolls made for endless spells kind of cool uh their terrain feature which is ironic because they give everything on the board nullification yeah so it's hard to resolve that yeah yeah it's a it's a little give a little take okay right you can you can spam more endless spells but they also go away really easy so that's fine i think that's what you call a nonvo it is a nonvo yes a classic nonvo that's my favorite terrain feature nullification yeah i actually i actually think it's got the most interactivity like you could really do some big plays like you can either smooth brain it and just accidentally put stuff in the wrong places or you can or you can just really ridge brain it and just go all fun it's it's it's really cool uh i like it whenever nullification on the board i'm like all right how can i use that never been able to use it well just would like to point that out but it's fun well maybe the thing that should have went down 20 points is an endless spell the comet and not the rat trap the thing that we should uninvent from the game yes like again in a world of 80 point rat traps the fact there's a hundred point comet is just like the most comical thing i've ever heard but like uh the like comet being your classic example of a fun thing to drop and blow up and dispel your own spell um the artifact is you can reroll save rolls of one fantastic i love mystic shield is my artifact choice uh and your command ability is a six up ward so which no longer stacks with anything else correct so good stuff then finally shadow okay uh you've got a spell that uh that does some mortal wounds maybe depending on armor saves so that's kind of cool uh every terrain feature gets overgrown so i guess uh sometimes super impactful and sometimes not at all impactful depending on how many people have shooting armies and how many people have flying models is really what that breaks out to uh so there you go the artifact is reroll wound rolls of one so you can take that and take said long walk off short pier tricksters foil is like a is like a meta name for this artifact yeah what they think they've done like all you tricksters with your ethereal and thermo-radar clothes i'll foil you here's your plus one here's your reroll wound rolls of one for your wizard who doesn't have an artifact yet and it's your only choice nice yep exactly super great uh just i hate that there are no utility mobility no interesting choices just they just the basic functions of combat rerolling ones in the most boring way that is my biggest insult they are boring they're boring yeah boring rules are so much worse than unbalanced rules i'm sorry you got me going again but i just i can't take it it's it is a splinter in my soul and and and the reason it hurts so bad is because again you feel the the negative uh psychological impact of loss more than you well negativity but yes the negative but you've got you've got less boring artifacts than you did in maligned sorcery which is really more choice thank you according to a copy according yeah exactly i yeah it's fine and i don't i don't blame the person who wrote that they were given the job of selling less is more so i mean sure yeah that's that's hard we know we took away these things you all used and thought were really fun and enjoyable and allowed you to play your armies how you wanted to and by the way you actually spent money in like a lot of hours making uh making let's say like i don't know let's just pull something out of the ether shall we like let's just make one example like maybe a a flying steam tank with a thermal writer quote cloak because you had always dreamed of having a flying steam tank when you started playing the empire like back in 1997 and now you could finally make the flying steam tank you had always dreamed up and so you finally built that thing and customized the whole model just for it to be like a leader in your army and you had kind of like done that and then maybe let's just say even to extend this into a crazier territory you then put the army onto the warhammer community and they featured that model as a thing that they talked about as a cool thing you could do and then it got taken away like if that crazy situation were to happen when did they put that on their fence uh like a month before this came out so they knew yes they absolutely knew they knew what it was to do wow i cannot believe they've rose in crowns and gilded a serger like that is outrageous yeah i'm sorry vince i know it's painful yeah so at any rate no no big deal no big deal we'll move on uh also the red cast in his unflappability for this for this entire ghp i've noticed and the realm command for the realm of shadows actually kind of neat because it's like a short range teleport pull a hero pull a unit back to a hero so yeah it's the night haunt you know um yeah what's her name uh the what is the dreadblade hero or something or the anchoring man yeah oh is that what it is doesn't the dreadblade hero do this pull the people away and set him up around himself that might be what i'm thinking of okay i was just trying to think of all the heroes who already had every single one of these command traits and which one they just copy and pasted it from for all yeah tom this is your army you should know knight on stuff isn't it isn't it the dreadblade hero that does the what well does the like unit any general control the question is is where um like is the dreadblade your your general then you're probably gonna pull to it and it's the best thing to use that type of ability because of its like speed and whatever yes because it can pick up and reset up every turn right okay cool yeah there you go uh yes as as somebody pointed out in the comments they have showcased two lists with flying steam tanks on the community site two people yeah exactly uh life's funny sometimes a little ironies okay so yeah overall i mean those are the realms it's not that there's it isn't that there's like nothing in there there are things in there that will have an effect on the game right yeah for sure yeah yeah it's just all in all i'm willing to roll with this for a little while like as far as the realm rules go like take the artifacts thing aside and i actually don't hate any of this i think oftentimes it's kind of like yeah it's not gonna be much but that's fine it's there they're okay we could always add a little bit more back on yeah yeah right i have a question that came up actually uh in the childhood about this is today a lot of people saying that they generally tend to just ignore these they get to the table like do you want to do this like no i don't want to do this like cool like but uh an event like now that seems okay to me but when you're at a tournament and it's in the pack we're playing the realms it's a realm of fire everything is volcanic um do you think it is out of order for the players to decide amongst themselves actually they won't partake in what is a stipulated set of rules uh in does that make sense like what you thought yeah that would be problematic no i mean if the teo wrote it down that like this this round we like round like kankan did it right as day one was all or what was they were they were in garan all weekend but some tournaments do it like day one and this is actually the way i prefer like day one is all in one realm and day two is all in a different realm that way people can kind of get into it and get a little more comfortable yeah that's much easier to to jump into yeah i don't i don't necessarily like the the every round is a different realm thing because that becomes kind of hard to balance but maybe part of that was because of the complexity of the old rules and the six bells and blah blah blah but no i don't think you should opt out of it at the table i mean i guess it's that's the rules pack that'd be like saying we're not going to play with the victory conditions or whatever in my mind right i will say in my anecdotal experience um especially before to started doing the day one fire day two will go or whatever which was a great idea especially before that i'm inventing a number here but in my head it's reasonably close to true 25 percent of my total tournament opponents would roll up to the table and in our opening pleasantries and kind of starting to set the board up they would be sending super strong verbal and nonverbal signals about can we please just ignore this crap for all that like they weren't they weren't like just saying it i mean some did but they were like uh let's let's just start the game but you know they were they were doing a lot of that and usually i would be a stickler because them's the rules and that's how i play and my sportsmanship suffered for it but you know uh that was uh if i was taking the temperature of the room at a lot of American events it would be like oh all right yeah yeah look up these realm rules now all right yeah that's fair and then like look at you and then like wait because we gotta look them up right i'm like yeah it's in the pack and they're like all right it's already a four out of five we'll just see if it drops any lower for sports no where to go but down on this one yeah exactly it's like putting your your total tip amount on the table with the server yeah absolutely okay uh let's talk auxiliaries this is all kind of related uh i think i have a very different opinion than you on these rub uh i don't uh so first of all the idea of these being a decider in a draw is so comically nothing that yeah like that's obviously therefore like yeah we got ready to kill points as a breaker yeah none of that matters draws only happen on knife to the heart so it's irrelevant okay great moving on skip that yeah and if you're drawing you're a coward so skip that go for the win or stop playing what are you doing with it that's what this we're here for okay yeah so uh but and as a like then secondary scoring mechanism because that's obviously if you go back and even look at their sample tournament you know scoring sheet that they have in the back of the book it's like you get one three or five points i think is what the amount is uh for uh completing one two or three of your auxiliary objectives or whatever it's like what's on their sample doesn't matter to do whatever they want with them right and use them as like a secondary scoring metrics to set to separate people so what do people think of these as far as their value goes like rob why don't you set up first because you had some strong opinions about this on your show on monday which i do highly encourage people to go watch well so uh i you were in my head uh as you often are later than i um when i was thinking about uh these and you know uh the idea that kill points are gone and replaced by this means that you might end up with more attritiony based armies which i know you really are against um uh so i had that in my head when i was talking about them but i actually feel that these are at least a good start towards where we should be ending up with secondaries and my reasoning for that is comes i mean the secondaries before a joke um these are way better than these agendas way yeah they're way better than that they're way way better than that uh and i know for nashcon obviously last year you you did a load of work on inventing ones that made more sense as well i also have heard the given that um they would have much preferred to achieve auxiliaries that were more malifaux style so like you know you got one two three based on how far into uh or how well you achieved those uh secondaries which i also thought was interesting like for a games workshop thing i think that they did pretty well like on the auxiliaries is what i'm trying to say i think that they mix the game up a bit they make you do some other stuff and i think that they're interesting are they perfect no but for a games workshop out of the gate like and maybe this is version two because they had the secondaries before not bad is how i'm feeling about them and i like that because i first started playing age sigma under mo comp which was always battle plans exactly like we have now ripped off from malifaux and then five secondaries and i always loved them they were always something i was having to put into effect something i was always having to think about and uh a bit of extra bookkeeping don't like that uh but more more tactical acumen i like that so that good i feel really good about them really good okay joe tom whoever well so secondaries to me these are better than the secondaries in the ghp last time for sure sure um as a player i'm behooved to choose the two easiest ones that involve things i'm going to do anyway and so i accidentally get auxiliaries once i already win and for a lot of them um it's the degrees of victory is lost on me it's like if i crush my opponent and it was the easiest game ever i get the most points from it so it you know it's sort of like the opposite of strength of schedule in a way i guess but maybe not um i don't think you necessarily always achieve all of them even in a crushing well not all of them but i suppose if you're choosing two before a game if the tournament says like you can't duplicate them or you know you choose one per round i suppose i'm not sure how the to's are going to do it and oftentimes tournaments have tier shearies which are just like yeah kind of totally made up and like another i thought i thought it was in i thought it was in the pack it was three for being like two for a normal game is what they said so out of it so out of 18 so out of 18 because it's not because for the scoring for the tournament often when we differentiate at the top like it's you know they've got those two very easy score secondaries and you've got all your max wins and now we need a tertiary but now if there's just even slightly more difficult to achieve like where it's one and then obviously most packs that i saw generally tended to be a point swing if you achieved it and a point swing if you denied so there was actually a four point swing max between two players effectively so even being able to deny your opponent one could actually end up that person losing an event and someone else winning an event so i like that level of granularity especially when it comes to three because i agree with you some of them are achieved but some of them are like actually maybe that might not be the easiest thing to do yeah and maybe and maybe you just you know turn for you like i've definitely lost but i'm going to throw my whole army away and keep this character alive and not let them win like that's that third tertiary that might cost them the tournament and there's and the other you you know i wish there was more to do or i wish there was less of a of a spite option there though where it's like you can't win anymore but you can stop your opponent from getting artillery that otherwise doesn't matter but just hurts his results at the end yeah war's spiteful like i'm into it i mean i'm playing due to eat people and livestock and so i should really role play more but so so here's my ultimate here's my ultimate pushback on why i'm not a fan of these so one there's not a lot of win for losing right okay so you made the reference to the illusion to schemes in malifaux schemes in malifaux are so well designed because they oftentimes have orthogonal purposes where you can win for losing is that do you understand what i mean by that rob i don't mean losing the game overall okay yeah i mean like sacrificing sacrificing your heroes your units your position your anything you can win when you lose you score them by losing stuff there's not a lot of that in here this is mostly like do more winning to your opponent and you get more of this stuff kill their hero kill their unit kill their thing be in their territory you know whatever whatever whatever make them fail battle shock right whereas like having the the consequence of these things when they're well written is that they psychologically buoy people who are doing poorly okay and when so many of these are contingent on you being able to effectively achieve your ends already what you're doing with your army there aren't a lot of these that you're gonna be able to do that with that's number one number two i don't like that you have to take three of them it's too many to keep track of i really don't that's too much junk for me to be worrying about you should have a secondary it's one thing you're trying to do okay well this is actually your fault not your fault directly but it's america's fault because of the itc like this is what we're currently looking at i think i think there's some parity that we're looking at now especially with current 40k uh in ninth edition in in in the triple secondary pick and i think that we're going to see that parity brought across system i actually think that these are the setups for where we get our version of their secondaries in the next edition of the game like i feel that that's where it is so i agree but i do fundamentally agree with you that that they often a win more and so i haven't shied away from that i just think it's a step in the right direction which is good maybe sure i mean my final thing i'll say is like and yes i'm super biased in here okay like i am well beyond biased okay but the the schemes that you know nashcon uses that that i created with tom and tyler emerson are still doing a better job of being secondary deciders in the way they're implemented there than anything in here is doing and the fact that those are one that you draw from a random hand you that you don't get to pick you know that there's a you get a random grip of six or seven you have to use five over the course of the game you can't double up and that they're hidden and david's pack is only rewarding you for achieving it there's nothing about denial okay you can try to figure out what they're doing and deny them based on if you know if you're smart you know the schemes but i like them much better as a hidden thing that you're trying to do that your opponent's not necessarily aware of rather than a thing that's out there it like in my head this goes right to you what you talked about earlier because all of these are like revealed at the start of the game you know you said i'm down to say i'm doing this i'm doing this i'm doing this so like the idea that i'm trying to deny my opponent so i'm trying to focus on whatever is going on in my army all of my rules worry about six objectives which are now you know most these are like five six objectives okay worrying about what their army is doing what they're trying to achieve i'm trying to remember my three auxiliaries that i'm trying to accomplish and i'm trying to focus on denying them their three like that's just too much stuff it's just too much stuff to be thinking about okay like that's the kind of thing that makes people have a bad time at tournaments because they're like why didn't i would just like to play warhammer okay well that's why i just play this game would how would you feel about um because this is something actually so for the super series i actually wrote a bunch of secondaries before these came in because they weren't very good and so i had a bleakest like secondaries that applied in every round in every match so they were just the same secondaries every time kind of like the old school uh 40k missions like old school if you know like first strike slay the warlord that sort of thing because i actually think that like consistent secondaries that you play every game so they aren't different every round might help with that bookkeeping and also add a level of like i think tactics which is also something else that you can play for right um they're not that that you know uh that your malifaux kind of point doesn't really get fixed not fixed but um if i'm still having to if the problem is is that i'm having to learn loads of different secondaries it's not overly helpful for new players and it's a bit like convoluted that doesn't really get fixed by having better secondaries that still is a lot of secondaries to learn but if you have the same secondaries which play every game all the time then that works quite nicely which is what mo comp used to be and i really enjoyed that i was always like i am definitely going to kill that unit and you're definitely not going to kill this unit and it was just a really fun like thing that i played every round um uh but sorry i wasn't trying to roll no no it's okay do you know what my answer is i have i have a quick answer for you let me let me answer rob yeah yeah uh my answer is that is still the sub optimal implementation of that thing to if you're going to have them be static in the way you're describing okay then what i would rather see them as is astatic secondary on each scenario different secondaries not one like in scenario a so here's an easy way to explain it okay let's imagine and it should run counterplay in some way to the to the to the general thematic elements that that scenario is pulling toward for example let's imagine a scenario that favors you being back on your line in your area and being defensive okay there are several scenarios that sort of work that way right uh scores shirth and better part of valor both sort of pull you back to your line and being defensive right the secondary that i would put on that mission is a first strike type mission getting across and hitting them hard hitting them first okay uh wherein now i'm actually influencing list building in a way that is real because it's in that scenario if that thing ends up in packs i have to account for the fact that i need to be able to play both of those strategies it wants to get my maximum points okay you get what i'm saying there that yeah i love it love it that feels like a stronger implementation when they're a bespoke design scenario to scenario as opposed to just these are five generic things because the problem is they're so generic when you have to implement them like that that they end up being like okay well it's not doing the same lifting yeah good point you mean like secondary should be push and pull yes and a lot of these secondaries feel push and push right because they kind of have to be if they're generic yes that is a that is a good point yeah great point great point and i actually think again looking towards the future that's what they're doing they seem to be trying to attempt to do with 40k uh which is maybe a good like nod for what we might be getting or what some of these me i don't know like it's better than it was that's the best i've got yeah i have no disagreement with yeah it's sort of really fair we're all on that page yes and for the for the complexity thing um for your for your esports series that's not necessarily a bad thing because the players are probably supposed to be of a caliber where they can deal with that but then like it's also kind of a bad thing because you have to get the audience to be able to follow it yeah i think it's i think it's less you know yeah i mean i don't know if anyone ever read the the pack for the 40k wtc which involved both secondaries tertiary's and rounded scoring on um randomly drawn cards i felt like i needed a degree just to read the pack and i get it yeah i get it that's the world team championships for 40k so it's complicated and i'm like okay but like translatable out to an audience i think definitely so and i also think um that that's a problem for new players which is also a good way of talking about the audience sometimes new players also how do these relate to me playing a pickup game yeah exactly the the game you're watching them play on tv should be the exact game they're playing at home because they're different than it's well and again that's exactly what building those kinds of things into the scenarios would do because they'd all be using the same scenarios it would be the same common language because what's going to happen with these i mean i know at my table i'd love to see people in the audience chat up but you know and say about this there's no universe where at my any of my games at home we use these auxiliaries that will never happen it would never happen yeah that's what i was about to say about pickup games like because in a tournament okay it makes sense like you know like i get i get less and less choices as the rounds go on and eventually maybe i won't be able to achieve some of those and therefore i drop some tournament points but at home i just picked the three i can always definitely do done yeah go home so like pickup games they're they useless in pickup games uh absolutely and yeah and i'd be really really interested uh vince in what you might do in point and secondaries into missions i think that's uh very interesting and i'd like to i'd love to hear you talk about that more another time by the way i mean it could be your opponent picks them for you right yeah that's cool and it's gonna it's gonna naturally pull you in whatever opposite direction then you want and there are probably gonna be more difficult to achieve them another interesting idea yeah sure especially because you'd still cross them off see right yeah right so like you're later you're later around opponents have less choices for you so or it could even be a mix you pick one they pick one something like that like there's there's ways to to flip this on its head to probably implement in a stronger fashion tom any final thoughts on auxiliaries anything you got i like them um i mean i don't i i agree with the critiques that have been level against them but they're better than they were yeah sure yep yep yep okay uh cool anything we missed gentlemen i think we got i think we got everything i think that's this ghb unpacked let's talk about just very quick here let's close this out and uh let's talk about what we want to see out of the pdfs just i don't want to go super deep into this but let's go a little bit into this uh joe there are so many armies in the pdf can we list them and and do an elevator pitch for you yeah sure absolutely not gonna i'm trying to remember which of the eight is it something like six or seven or eight armies yes yeah cities ogres slaves obr uh zinch seraphon and i think i'm missing one chaos there you go so a lot yeah uh city is a little better internal balance they kind of got hit on the bridge went up and stuff like that i think they're their monsters could maybe go a touchdown because they uh they lost realm artifacts which is big deal um maybe a little more a little closer parity between many of the units that have a shared role depending on rates oh yes i think i like sorry go ahead like just because i'm just going to go pying the sky on every suggestion i'd like to see so i'd like to see some like real cross-pollination of like synergy so like we're not cross-pollination actually really tied in specific so the opposite of what i said sorry uh like so i want i want the unit of eternal guard uh to work very well with other wood elf units specifically and become crazy good next to each other and then so that their points kind of offset that because they suck and like because you can't make them all because like phoenix guard of good yeah so you have to make them like phoenix guard or cheap and therefore useless sort of thing and i'm like don't do that just make it so that like these two units in combination with each other get really strong and you kill one half of those two units and then it kind of falls apart just do that and then just do that with all the little subgroups inside the city sigmar yeah you're saying establish a bunch of like true power pairs yeah effectively and then just and then throw them into the different that's what i want to see and that requires a significant volume of rewrite which we're not going to get but that would be that would be fun i think that would make it seem a little bit more interesting inside right it would be really cool if they did rewrites for cities of sigmar because there's a lot of a lot of slam dunks and cool opportunities there um what they want tom what what's your what's your hot pick well we'll do a couple rounds sure he's deep in thought this is gonna be he's trying to decide if he wants to talk about ko first or not is what's going to happen here all right chat buckle up this is going to be deep i think ko is really good okay i'm gonna i'm gonna come around and say that i think that and i think part of it is because of the evolving meta sure um if the leak points are to be true it looks like they're looking at some pretty drastic like point decreases mm-hmm enjoy this while they last yeah yep uh which most of the year won't have any events so they won't um and yeah that's what i'm gonna like i think that uh my hot pick is that i think ko's gonna do really well in the new world yep but especially with their points down they're already on a strong foot yep and then like with the with uh uh with the uh rat trap going down as well um the fact that like even techless can't prevent against that sure um uh or that or the the demon rift i don't know i just i think that like the stock in ko is it is primed to do very well in the new meta let me say it that way i agree stonks all right uh for myself i'm gonna pick uh i'm gonna pick seraphon and i want to see i want to see croak and the sally's get kneecapped so hard just like i want croak to go up 120 points that's an example it's not going to but that's that that would be a reasonable point amount for him well up 40 is gw is 120 so sure but like he should be 440 i'm sorry what are you talking about this guy at 320 what idlon started at right yeah exactly yeah yeah you compare him to and i'm generally you know as i mentioned on the show with rob you have to be careful about doing cross army comparisons some people should have things cheaper if their armies overall have less capabilities yeah and your different weaponers there's all sorts of different yeah yeah there's all sorts of different things so you can't just go even one to one but i mean it is an absolute joke to compare a hero in a in a very like seraphon so like the more varied your army is the more strats the more phases it plays in generally the closer retail you should be paying for anything right like if you only play in one phase if you can only punch people in the face iron jaw style you can't you don't have magic yeah you have a little bit of mobility you don't have shooting your melee units should be cheaper pound pound for point right because that's what you do and that's all you do uh whereas like uh seraphon who play in every phase aggressively to have that leader at that point cost is just it's it's freaking madness it is madness uh so i look for it so just please please crack both of those hard there's still plenty of other good stuff in seraphon plenty it's not like that ruins their army skinks are good sores can be interesting basties are interesting like there's plenty of interesting units in that army are we also are we also just asking flat out for a basti rewrite so it's just a two up armor save oh i love how quick that reformatted by the way that problem got introduced in 40k and instead of the answer being no it's just how the game is supposed to work they came out with an f aq like right now saying no this isn't a thing they fixed it two day this happened they fixed it so that the one plus save wouldn't exist in 40k and be immune to ap we had this problem months ago and they were like yep just how it is sorry that's just the way it works they introduced it before 40k isn't really even out it's on pre-order and they fixed it to be fair though there's there's also a load of stuff they haven't fixed so that is not the shining light in our community unfortunately but i understand i'm just saying like that is it's comical to me that people were like one plus terminators that are immune to ap what are we going to do and we're like hey these lizards over here are immune they're like yeah working as intended and these guys over here are like now we'll fix that immediately so anyway so sorry can i just answer a question that's in the chat because so because it's about seraphon because kasper scott scott's guard says basillons basillons are hot garbage outside of thunder is it i actually ignoring the obvious points problems that you have with seraphon it's actually one of my favorite books because talking about and cities is a really good example where you can talk about the problem and the solution and the problem with cities is you just have a lot of units that do almost nothing and then there's something that's the best version of them right whereas in whereas in seraphon they were just like okay basties are 230 yeah but if you take him in this they're going to shoot twice and you're like i'm in like because i want to run bastilladons i'm gonna play thunder like lizard yeah and i'm do you know what i mean like they gave that like and they did that fairly well with the zinch book as well fairly well like you know i want to run kary cackle it's there's something for that i want to run flamers there's something for that yeah i want to run screamers there's something for that some of it's a little bit more hit and miss but i feel like i don't like i feel like they're giving i want there's the unit i want to play and then they're giving me the rules to play my unit rather than there are the rules and i find the best unit to fit those rules no i agree that sub faction alignment because when you look you've got like the monster thing the sorus thing the skink thing right and and like yeah those are well aligned to these sorts of cadres of troops you'd want to run yeah and they they actually feel like they play at their optimum when they're in that particular thing and they're costly correctly yeah they beta tested that design when they wrote the mawtri book except they forgot to make anything good they're like i want to play lead belchers but they're terrible but if i take the lead belcher sub faction then they're just bad right can confirm i didn't know we were only choosing one and i need to complain about mawtribe at least a little we're not just choosing one it's legit okay go ahead take us through take us through your next one we'll do we'll do a couple rounds this because i want you to talk about ogres yes so the gut buster entire half of the book could get the stormcast treatment very comfortably it's an army that walks eight inches forward and your opponent doesn't have to plan for play around or think about anything there's no tricks and no surprise right they walk forward and they capture okay for the points you're paying and yeah it is so they don't really do much they do some good damage sometimes but it's a casino and almost everything is like either too expensive but it could be good like you know iron gods or even glottons and stuff and some of their heroes or like too expensive and kind of hopeless to be honest like man eaters like man eaters and lead belchers stuff like i really like do you think lead belchers couldn't just come down to some points and and they come down from points yeah it's just the way you'd want them fixed they're big ogres with cannons they should be holding a city's a sigmar canon that does a d6 and cost like more points per unit or something i don't know and to me it was a failure of like envisioning theme to rules for those guys like one damage cannons on basic glutton's with a single different like one more rend but one less attack it was um uh anyway it's it's boring rob were you playing warhammer back when the ogre book first came out like back in sixth edition no i played it in eighth okay so i was like i was playing back then and my buddy went and got the ogre as soon as they came out he was super excited for him still in my still in my group my club to this day and he went and got the ogres and he loved them thought they were awesome and he played those lead belchers and they were unreal dangerous like so deadly because they were what you just said joe they were walking forward with empire cannons and they would just like open up on you at a relatively shorter range but still long enough and units would just melt and like lead belchers were a thing they can write these rules like it can happen you know it's not it's not impossible yeah thunder tusk's a concern because it's um it's just kind of bad at everything right like it doesn't do any melee damage and they've they've specifically on purpose are written frost wreath ice to always be bad no matter what unit it's targeting so like you would target one guy and it's bad and it doesn't do a lot of damage but then if you target 10 guys it's proportionally still bad and if you target 20 or more guys it's like proportionally still bad so it has like no use at all and your prayers are garbage so you don't really want to husk out anyway so like what do you do drop their points there's still not really a reason to take any of them for the most part but if you drop them too much then you'll get like nine thunder tusk torbads that they just have stats at least and now you're running enough of them so that they just charge stuff over and over and now they're better than storm storm stone horns i don't know so they're in a in a strange they're in a goofy spot i think the savable units in the book can go down some percentage so that they're good and if you're not gonna fix war scrolls which you there's simply too many across the game to do then you know just kind of take some notes i guess for the next book right like sure yeah don't do the silveness thing where you hardly change any war scrolls and then the same problems that the units had before they still have and you're like so if you're not changing war scrolls in ghb's and you're not really changing them in battle towns like one of the stuff ever gonna get useful yeah i agree uh rob what should we get any other any like we still got more armies what else you want to see okay so this one's for tom uh so i would like to see reasonable changes for flamers uh because i agree obviously uh and pink horrors agreed but having played zinch a bit for a while now um i'd argue that it's a bit like a celeste in that it's not actually super survivable in of itself like it tanks on its wounds with the pinks then it does with its armor like um and there are some fast units ish you know skyfire still fast etc but like they don't actually ever overly deliver a knockout punch they don't really have the frost lord on stone horn like they got spells that you got to try on a cast and and i don't actually agree that the lord of changes is in that um magic dom category so two cast wizard that still rolls like it's not it's not up there really um i don't want to jump i understand he's only a two cast wizard he is yeah isn't how much is the lord of change right now three eight three eight okay like in my book first of all again hilarious 60 points more expensive than croak just the funniest thing in the universe um just continues to be completely obnoxious uh but at any rate he's in there because but as i explained it he's like the the husband who wants to experiment as a spell dom he's got like some fuzzy handcuffs in the in the nightstand right beside the bed right he's there because he can be he can still be potent uh because he can move the dice up he can get the bonuses a little bit you're right he's the he's kind of actually in a middle territory between like the garbage casters and the spell doms he's sort of like the bottom of that uppercut yeah he can he can still get it up yeah yeah but but but but like there's a lot of counter play against lord change obviously ignoring the portal which fyi my faq pick would be the portal is banned um that would be my faq pick pdf but like that was banned stop trying to fix it just banned the umbral spell portal banned just get it out done know what like like listen everyone goes what if i spell portal it should be gone um but yeah sorry anyway so my point is to tom because like i don't uh i don't know you vince as well like bothered by the flamers i recognize the flamers are good but actually when you start to talk about the output from zinch yeah where does the output come from if you take flamers away like if you nukes them into the ground like with seraphon if you take out croak and you take out salamanders they've got a range of options that they can still look at but when you start looking at zinch actually it's not an overly wide book they've got a lot of stuff that's meh like and a lot of stuff that requires rolling uh it doesn't have uh i mean i was trying for a while but with host alcanum and the the sharks but you just don't come up against monsters and wizards and you're like okay well i guess i lose today like it's uh so i recognize that there needs to be a change in zinch but actually i'd like to as much as i'd like to see the hit the flamers and i would like to see it um it doesn't have to be too severe i'd also like to see so maybe some points drops on some other units that are also gaunt summoner can just summon blues agree yeah yeah easy yeah gaunt summoner can just summon blues no problem there um so do you know i mean i think zinch is actually much more susceptible to just getting nuked more than we maybe realize well i'm with that yeah that's important can i go ahead like i think that actually zinch like finds correction very easy like with a very small change okay and i think that correction is um in in how pinks function okay um i think if you tweak that i think you could still leave flamers as aggressive okay and i know that a lot of people i've tried this out i think in a couple different environments but i think the fragile though right the flamers they're fragile they are they are and i acknowledge that um i think the real fix is that like you just shouldn't be able to bog like if it were me this is how i would fix it you change the restore mechanic on pinks anytime you replace models to the to a unit you replace to the weakest model type yes okay so instead of replacing models replacing pinks it always replaces like brims if you have brim if you don't have brims and only blues it replaces blues if you only have pinks it replaces pinks so what that would do is that it would immediately flip out the like every model one wound restored restores like five wounds yeah right and then and i would even consider they would never do this for lower purposes but if they went to uh one pink goes to one blue to to one brim yeah it would fix the problem completely because it'd be a 31 unit instead of a 51 unit yep a 30 wound spellcaster unit with range for 200 points yeah i mean i think that i i agree flamers need a uh you know like a a point's adjustment up although it does need to be like the end of the world i'm not i'm not croaking the salleys on them right right i agree but i think other things need to come down because what i don't want is the scaven syndrome here right where we only look at the stuff that's broken and actually just focus all of our attention on that not recognizing that there's other stuff in the book that's overcosted right like like xander like most of the zangor stuff could probably probably have some point's adjustments yeah like do a comparison like sit down and look at the numbers of like what you get for 200 points right between arcanites zangor and pinks correct and it's simply silly there's just no purpose to take anything but things yes right and so like if you changed it to like a 30 wound unit multiplying out restoring lower wounds instead of a 50 wound unit you're still like it still leans pigs let me just say that but it's better the comparison is more equitable yeah yeah and you always want to avoid the you know there might be an army that's legitimately a problematic or whatever but you don't want to just explode them and now they're terrible right because you didn't really realize it before because you didn't think about it but actually it was you know a rickety house built on the foundation of like one unit that was probably too good and when that's gone it's actually just a huge dump and that's and that's good you know and that's what and that's honestly what i feel seeing cheers because like they've got a lot of stuff in the same roles and those flame was almost needed for the range poke in some cases because other the other damage that you get in spellcasting comes if your opponent ever moved in range the turn before you hope uh but anyway that's but i recognize there needs to be a change and i do think that needs to be fine to be really good at something that's okay yeah it's the reason i want to see skyfires come back down in points because it's okay to have a good unit that's like kind of scary at range like i wish we had more intra army points differences when they have a different name right like i for instance i want enlightened on discs and boc to be like a hundred percent backed out they used to be but i don't want to give z inch that you know what i mean yeah yeah and if they're being called something different now i think we can well this would go to like the celestine prime 300 and storm cash 340 and every other army he allies into right that kind of thing sure yeah yeah i mean it may be too much but what if there were two columns yeah that's fine sure or there's there's already two you know one is called z inch skyfires and the other is called beast of chaos skyfires and they're bolded and there you go yeah i mean they already did that with giants and they reprinted them in 17 different books and gave them different points and different names so it's not like it's unprecedented yeah it's right it's a little more of a gray area because chaos tends to share units and just kind of does whatever it wants when it's sharing them half the time so that is a little messy i suppose but i feel like there's a solution there if you just kind of look at it yeah i agree it's what they should have done with old grim gassed reapers right yeah so they're still good but they're probably too good in alohan right so you just make the alohan ones go up a little bit and then night haunt doesn't have you know their their kool-aid dumped out when they weren't doing anything wrong yeah i mean they were getting the back and they're still too expensive even now i can't believe they didn't go down but whatever right it's fine yeah yep uh what other army haven't we touched yet obr fixed petrifici league there you go done thank you moving on other than that the army's fine yeah like it's it's a perfectly fine functional interesting fair army to play it's just petrifici league is busted so cool yeah keep the rend do something to the saves and then they'll take catacroas anyway and it's fine yeah or keep the saves and ditch the rend like i don't know whatever and drop the points on starkis stalkers and more palace garden yeah 100% easily drop them down to 160 make it aggressive and make people make the make the obr player think about what they need to build yeah definitely yeah what do we want to see with slaves uh uh demon rift go up sure like allegedly it's going up to 80 because we've seen like a potential maybe the points who knows right right i'm getting some push back in the chat yes of course petrifici is actually fine but enough people have complained about it that you have to bow to popular pressure and do something that it's just you have to do something that seems like it does something to the average person who's wrong already but doesn't actually do anything so that everyone's happy yeah i mean it's just it's an internal parody thing i think it is legit too good when anytime you get so this is kind of you know how magic looks at balance they don't look at it from one dimension they look at it from like eight dimensions right it's about what's a dex win percentage what's the engine that's pushing magic balance actually seriously oh yeah sure and they have like eight different dimensions they evaluate that on right yeah yeah in what percentage of winning dex is that card occurring and what percentage in the total meta is that card occurring and what percentage like how much was spread across the current available sets in the meta are cards being selected from like they look all over the place and like they attack this from lots of different ways and one of the one of the sort of red flags to them is when a single card shows up too much right uh it's also when a win deck when a deck has a 55% win yeah sure then it's like way too high and things get banned yeah yeah they specifically quoted imagine armies getting banned at 55 yeah i want to point out rob that they in the in the june first magic banning they actually had somebody quoted with the guy who wrote it which is like yin duke or somebody i think he said we were watching this deck and this deck drifted up to a 55 win rate which we thought was far too high so we're we're taking like we're banning out this card i thought you'd really enjoy that yeah if you still might be in heart like 70 that's fine so um but like you know petrificially or something like 99 plus of all selections that's a problem for internal pair yeah right so like i'm not asking to make it bad i'm asking to make it unbalance a choice i think there's still a good army can we buff the bad ones too though 100 yeah yeah absolutely i am totally up for that okay then bring our you know make arcanites great again yeah and we can shake hands through the screen and we're good like yeah yeah can we also can we also not make sub factions cost points can we make them cost points stop stop stop trying to ruin the game by costing everything no just build them correctly and and and get rid of the concept that they're not a thing by the way i this is part of the road that i knew we were going to go down if you go back to when they started introducing these sub factions i i even commented that this is a dangerous road right because what's going to happen is everybody's going to want them and then items need costs and then everything needs costs and it's like and now list building is a nightmare and we might and we're just playing eighth edition and it's everything's terrible again no stop trying to ruin more amber okay you can balance these i wouldn't be the terrorist if i wasn't trying at least sure the compromise is they just write better yeah and then you can you can balance these here's how you balance it you ready you actually make them good against each other which by the way they did in uh in uh realm lords where three out of the four of them i think are all actually quite compelling and one of them's kind of like man but still the fact that there's no i couldn't pull a best out of that book i mean people can say they think sarah is really good or the best or the caster one is really like i don't know the point is there are three that are compelling which ones i'll guarantee you something with lrl you're not going to see a 99 selection on them guarantee it no no yeah yeah yeah because if you if you like cows then you're taking america right and if you don't then you're probably not taking america like excuse exactly like that right same thing with seraphon by the way for the reasons you said okay like no i think i think i think seraphon example me is is the example where you don't need points on the sub factions what they do is they hardlock the units to be better in their own sub factions correct and i think that i think that's excellent i would prefer that don't let me wrong that's how they should be designed and by the way it's the same for lrl uh to a point where they're like the venari do better in this thing the casters do better in this thing like they're very focused sub-factor yeah and so when you roll up to the army doing what they told you which is just rule of cool everything you're like well i wanted to play with these guys and then this is the sub faction for those guys and then you just do that and then they're good yes uh and also mefisto is popping off in the chat because of because of course he is because we're talking about patchfix yeah uh but like but no there doesn't have to be a best and there won't be a 99 in lrl they're just won't like it's not the way that book's constructed for the same reason there's not a 99 percent in in in most of those books like that but like when you get a gristle gore or a patch effects that's when you get those things happening yeah um so like the other opportunity cost by the way is this right really good base command traits and really good base artifacts like compelling ones in your book and you make that opportunity cost bigger you understand what i'm saying yeah like if the base because you're given like you know should i go boulderhead well i give up zero good traits and zero good artifacts and i'm not even exaggerating well i guess i'll take a sub faction huh yeah exactly it's not a cost at all yeah yeah so if the sub factions are curtailed to certain units relatively well balanced against each other and have a real opportunity cost in the in the in the command trait and artifact thing then you actually have real choices yeah maybe i'm wrong rob i don't know what do you think have i convinced you if i brought you over no my preference is that they do better look it's a solid line we can all agree and if they don't agree with the better the first time they can always pdf it always always i guess i guess um i i think we are the punishers we whip ourselves right we're our own worst enemies in some cases because i want loads of options i want the anvil of apotheosis and i don't just want it now i want it to be like a billion times more combinations and i want to do it all yeah um and i want that but so if so you know if they release a new book it doesn't matter what it is they release a new book chaos dwarfs let's say they do chaos dwarfs right like like the apedia update yay and now i've got three sub factions and i'm like what only three but that's all i need like it's not a very big book like i don't have a lot of models available to me like and maybe they can only come up with two that are any good in which case fine one that the dwarfs are good in and one that the cows are good in and i'm like that's okay but then some people might be like that's not enough i feel like they feel like we need to have like they're like it needs to be a 70 page book or whatever it is so banging a couple of extra sub factions and have done with it sort of situation every okay go ahead go ahead i was just gonna say if you've only got three good ideas just do those sure yeah because at the end of the day every army only ends up using two of their sub factions anyway for the most part and two of their six spells and their spell lore and two of the artifacts out of the 24 artifacts they give you sure for the most part i'm exaggerating but on some no i mean some of this is obvious just stop writing really bad artifacts and really bad command traits it shouldn't be a real one perwound artifact in the game right can that just be saved yeah like you know when you write a book that you're writing bad artifacts like they have to know that yeah they're typing this command trait adds one to the wound characteristic of the hero and then they press enter and they're like yep that's a hot target right there i just write i just wrote that you can once per game uh re-roll a charge and you get plus one to bravery yeah i put that in there that happened how did they work it out how did that plus two bravery could we also i never want to see that ever again in my life in anvil plus one to bravery costs 10 points and it's so good you can only take it on a gargantuan mounted hero a command ability to add plus one to hit combat phase for within 18 inches causes zero and so i think this this should enlighten you to a little bit of the points discrepancies we've been seeing in their game yeah yeah that's true yeah that's true uh slaves uh i mean i hope they somehow fix marauders in the pdf and make them i don't think they will i think they'll just up their point some which is the wrong fix it's exactly the wrong fix yeah exactly but they also need to change warriors and choose it as well warriors so i was thinking about this i was thinking about the warrior problem the liberator problem the blood warrior problem the blood warrior problem sure absolutely all of these they're almost every 32 millimeter base problem is that they're just worse than a cloud of idiots with a bunch of buffs on them yes almost systematically almost i agree and these are all like anvil leaning units theoretically right i call them anvil leaning because it's not like they're really hardcore anvils right but like isn't the answer for these guys to just make them like actual elite troops like actually have elite profiles to where they actually have you know things like rend since 10 of them are effectively 180 or 200 points or whatever they're going to be right wouldn't the answer just be to actually make them worthwhile didn't we solve this when our boys went to 90 for five and they actually have like a true elite offensive profile and then people actually use them so shouldn't chaos warriors and liberators and all those things just have real elite profiles like if you don't want to give liby's rend because they're meant to be ultra defensive sure then okay put them on three ups rerolling or something like that like our true elite defensive profile yeah right yeah in other words make them worth usable and good yeah like when you read the story in the book and you're like every single liberator was a king right who also single-handedly fought off a hundred demons before he was killed and reforged and now he's on a 40 millimeter base with two garbage attacks i'm like worse than a bird right yeah like just stop thinking of them as fives and start thinking of them i don't care how you price them i'm saying think of them as 10 for x yeah and that's the stats they should carry and they just don't right now there's no way that charts out like that there's so many like quote unquote elite infantry that are like 10 for 130 10 440 that have vastly superior stats to the guys that are technically 10 for like 200 right the poor paladins for stormcast just stood there like what have we ever done wrong and the answer is nothing you're like you're like specialists in your field um like they or there's already an inherent cost in that they're not good against other units so they don't need to be expensive yeah like if they need yeah paladins should be what the liberators are right not necessarily the same cost but closer to that cost than where they are right because the stormcatcher supposed to be like everybody's uh everybody's george washington and you know there's some heroes from the heroes yeah yeah absolutely rose spier and stuff like in in big armor yes uh okay uh yeah i i completely agree and then beyond that like you know fix that stuff may cast night cast nights could be a little cheaper and that's fine that they probably are points thing and uh and then they'll be fine and competitive because they can actually get good enough with the bonuses if you just make them like a little cheaper put them in kind of that you know elite heavy and elite heavy cavalry range like pigs and stuff of that nature but blood or not blood crushers skull crushers and things of that nature so cool beans uh yeah who haven't we touched is that everybody have we fixed it did you say silver that everybody uh silver nuth was already quote unquote done uh i just wanted to know sorry can i just chip in on silver at the tiny bit please i just i just think i just think that in jane silent bob fashion they need to knock on the door of everyone who bought that book and apologize person to person yeah like yeah that's what we're sorry in the pdf um that's it yeah i don't disagree with that yeah yeah yeah uh oh yeah barren guard get a little cheaper too there you go that's fine super good with that all right yeah brand guard went down yeah so it is now reset the clock absolutely just like year for the game's entire history brand guard have either didn't have points or went down right right exactly uh i just i love how we're seeing them being playable in 2030 by this uh it's exciting how far they think 15 wounds can go um yeah it's cute so all right cool there we go uh i think we've solved it gentlemen we've done it all there all right game's fixed please enjoy uh we'll hopefully see that pdf sometime soon so hey well it's gonna be it's gonna be the two weeks i know it's gonna be two weeks i know but we'll see i i maintain hope chances are it'll drop tomorrow just despite me uh so we're right after the show it's either tomorrow or two weeks those the only options uh now i can do a show about it and you get double coverage so there you go for those views like and subscribe hey well thank you very much buddy for coming on today it was a great time yeah it was a pleasure rob thank you for staying up late with us appreciate it sir it's my pleasure you are wonderful gentleman and a great group of people to talk what i'm always so thank you thank you very much tommy appreciate it as always yep uh for all of you out there thank you so much for watching uh it's awesome to have you with us that you stuck with us for the whole three hour shows long when i didn't think this was gonna be this long but it was so hey if you like this and stuck around the whole time why not hit that like button look how easy it is to just move your mouse from like here over to here and click a 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