 Welcome everyone to another edition of crisis conversations live from the better life lab. In this podcast, we've explored and will continue to explore in upcoming episodes, how the pandemic is disproportionately impacting women. Women are carrying more of the childcare housework and homeschooling load from early surveys, you know, although so much is still unfolding we don't really know. But women, especially women of color are disproportionately being laid off and furloughed and struggling with unemployment. You know, and now that many businesses are beginning to reopen, and yet childcare summer camp and schools are not nor is there much talk of a bailout of the childcare industry. You know, no one seems to be talking about that there is a fear that women will again be forced to step back or step away from work because of caregiving responsibilities. And that will only exacerbate existing inequalities and pay advancement opportunity and time. But today we're going to focus on men. And where did the idea come from that men's role, the sort of the role that they should play in family should be the breadwinner, the provider, and that women should be primarily responsible for care. You know, and how those notions how they changed or evolved, especially as women really entered the workforce and mass in the late 1970s and 80s and what's changed and what hasn't, and particularly looking at what's happening now with the pandemic. So we've got a great panel today, the experts and fathers. We also hope to hear your stories your thoughts and questions. So please as please do use the chat function, and our producer David children will reach out to you and bring you into the conversation. You know, before we dive into the pandemic, you know, and also the protests for racial justice and how that's changing. You know, how that's changing change men and fatherhood ideals. I do want to start with a little bit of context. So we're going to start with a story, but from Glenn Henry. He's a musician and a rapper he's a father who chronicles his life on YouTube, on his YouTube channel called belief and fatherhood. He wasn't able to join us today because he's busy promoting a new documentary on dads produced by Bryce Dallas Howard, featuring her father filmmaker Ron Howard. I spoke with him a few days ago about what a rude awakening he had when childcare costs were getting far higher than he and his wife could afford as their family grew. And so with his wife earning more, he became the children's primary caregiver. So let's listen to Glenn. I thought it was going to be boring and there was going to be nothing to do and the children, I just kind of, you know, be bored, you know, and then one weekend with both children, I cried in the mirror, you know, where both of my kids were outside of the door crying in the bathroom and I and I was inside the bathroom just looking in the mirror just tearful just couldn't like not being able to function. I didn't realize it was going to be so emotionally challenging. And so when I stepped into the role as primary caregiver, it gave me a lot of grace and understanding for women who do do feel that role. And a lot of times the husband's response or the father's response or whatever, the partner's response is, well, you got through the day but why isn't dinner ready or why isn't this clean or why isn't you know and it's kind of like the goal is that every no one died today. You know, we made it through the day and everyone survived. You know, and so I started to I started to have conversation with my male friends about, you know, then being frustrated with them with their wives because they're not doing anything and I'm like actually she's doing way more. You know, she's talking to your mother on the phone, you know what I mean she's having conversations with people in the community so your kids can have a social life. She's doing so much that you don't have to do and she would trade you while you're complaining about traffic. She would trade the amount of time just sitting in traffic just to be alone with her thoughts. So, so that let me start with my colleague Haley Swenson. So Haley she's the deputy director of the better life lab and she's also she's got a PhD when it comes to studying gender and sexuality. She's also been a lead author on some of the work that we've been doing at the better life lab to study men and care. So Haley Glenn clearly felt unprepared for his role as a primary caregiver. So what can you tell us about how common that is for men. Thank you Bridget for having me and I just was smiling throughout that whole recording because it's a lot of what we've heard from men who are now at home with the kids and certainly it resonated with a lot of the research that we've done and the focus groups that we conducted for this men and care study. And one of the things that we found when we talked to men about really we would ask what prepared you to be a dad and it was sort of two things either nothing, nothing prepared me. Or it was it was watching my own dad or my own mom be a caregiver and then and then men would from that sort of figure out what they're doing and and the truth is being a primary caregiver to kids is hard for anyone. But one of the differences is that girls grow up babysitting they grow up, you know, thinking of themselves as future caregivers when I used to teach college classes on this I would ask my students you know raise your hand if you've given thought to your future career and how you'll balance it with with family life. The women in the class would raise their hands because they knew this was something they were going to have to figure out and think about themselves as caregivers as well as as potential earners. But men in my classes haven't thought of that and so it's just really a question of preparation in a lot of a lot of cases, but the men when we did talk to them often got a lot of joy out of this experience they, they would talk about the things that were particularly stressful about But they would sort of say you know where's the support and and one of the comparisons men in the focus group would make is women who've entered professions, especially high status professions they form, they form groups support groups on how to do that how to enter industries that haven't been friendly to women. Where are the dad's groups you know where are the where the men who are getting together and talking to each other about how we can support each other and so it's certainly what Glenn saying there sounds sounds a lot like what I heard in the study. So I want to stay with you Haley for just a minute more. So you just released a new report this week on engaged dads and some of this, some of the findings really surprised me in terms of what men themselves said they valued or was what was important to them as fathers. Can you share some of the sort of the top level findings. Absolutely. So one of the things that really struck me about this is that generally sociologists of these questions folks who study it. They've seen traditionally kind of three P's when it comes to what men do around the house, providing protecting and playmates right so they're these are sort of the three things that have been acceptable for dads to do throughout the years when it comes to engaging with their kids. And we expected because of the state of research the state of what we know about how much of the care burden falls on women we expected to find sort of things that would confirm that that's how men are thinking about these roles. In fact the two biggest answers to a question we asked which was, you know what is very important to you when it comes to what fathers should do. So we gave some options. Financial support financial providing was actually on the lower end of the list of things that were that dad said were very important higher on that list where the highest one was showing love and affection, which I found really important. You know that there were other direct caregiving items that came back as well. Giving transportation to kids making sure they're safe teaching them about life, but the showing love and affection was so emotional and so sort of in touch with these intangible aspects of caregiving that women have done and often has been unacknowledged that women don't have time to take care of themselves. And I think that's what really makes up time and more fathers that that was very important than any other tasks. So I found that that actually pretty hopeful as a sign of just how far fatherhood has come in recent decades. Yeah, I thought that was so fascinating. That's what struck me the most, you know, we tend to think of men as providers, like you say the three P's and breadwinners. So let me turn to Dan Carlson now. So Dan, he's a sociologist at the University of Georgia. He's an expert with the research group that counsel on contemporary families. And he has produced some really fascinating research over the years on the gender division of labor and we've written and cited you and many of our of our work. So, you know, you've also talked about how the fair sharing of the work at home leads to better relationships and even better sex. So Dan, you've also been studying how the pandemic is impacting men. You know, during this really this time of global crisis. And when we spoke the other day, you know, you'd said some people are calling the pandemic a disaster for feminism, but you say it could also be an opportunity. So can you talk a little bit more about what you're finding and why this could be an opportunity? Sure. Thanks for having me. Yeah, so the people are concerned right that the COVID pandemic is going to, you know, reverse 60 years worth of feminist progress, because schools are closed and childcare centers are closed. And people are working from home. And so, you know, there is a sort of elimination of the lines between work and family here. And traditionally, right, when it comes to domestic labor, this is women's responsibility. And so if there's more to do, then it seems like this is going to fall onto women's labs, mother's labs. But at the same time, right, and this goes to Haley's findings, right, we know that men want to be engaged at home, right, men overwhelmingly believe in gender equality as, you know, the general social survey has showed us, you know, for years. They want to be engaged dads. And it seems that more or less it's structural issues, not culture, not attitudes that is preventing this. And so if we think about Well, let me interrupt you for just a second. Dan, what do you mean structural issues? What's getting in the way of men, you know, if so many say they want to be engaged caregivers, then why still are women, you know, when you look at, say, some of the studies that you even cite, time use research, women are still spending about twice the amount of time doing childcare and housework. So what are the structural things getting in the way? It's work family policy. And this is a lack of the lack of it, you mean in the United States, right? Right, indeed. And, you know, this is at the workplace level. And this is also at the state and federal level. So it's about a lack of access to parental leave for men paternity leave. It's about workplace culture. All right. And this notion of the ideal worker, you know, men don't, you know, want to be just breadwinners, but that's what is expected of them at work, right. And so they're fearful of lack of promotion, they're fearful of lack of raises. If they, you know, show an inclination towards being more engaged at home, right. And so there's a stigma, right, associated with taking leave and pulling back a bit. And so if you ask them, again, men personally, they want to do this, they want to be engaged. But there seems to be barriers, and those barriers are eliminated in some respects by the pandemic, right. People are forced to work from home, or they're just like lost their jobs. And so the question is, you know, when the rubber meets the road in this instance, right, to use the analogy, do men actually step up, right, and then engage. And our results say yes, they are, right. So, you know, the proportion of families that are or couples that are sharing housework has increased over 60%. It's gone from 27% to 41%. And the proportion of couples that are sharing in childcare equally has also increased from like 45% to 56%. So there's substantial growth here. And of course, right, you know, the other side of that coin is that women are still, many families still doing the majority of work in this environment. But there has been movement towards more sharing. And, you know, you can come to a more equal division of labor in a couple of pathways. One is that women maybe just do less. Well, another is that men do more, or it could be a combination of the both. And what we're finding is that, you know, the increase in the equality is driven by men doing more. And that's the good news of the pandemic. At the same time, the bad news is that there are a lot of women who are doing more and they tend to be in families and in couples where they were already doing the majority of work. So their burdens have been increased. So it's not all, you know, utopia. There's some good news, obviously, men are doing more and this has resulted in more equality. But there's also, and you know, a substantial number of families, women who are whose burdens have been increased. So, you know, and I want to go to Dan Herman, we've got a father here from the New York City dads group. So like, like Haley said, there are there are some groups forming for men to kind of have affinity or support for each other. But Dan, we're going to come to you in just a minute. But Dan Carlson, if I could, if I could stay with you, you know, in the pandemic, you know, one of the things that we've seen like with remote work that it's really become a signifier of class. You know that if you're a white collar worker, you're much more likely to be able to work remotely or work from home. There are a lot of essential workers who have to continue going into work. You know, there are a lot of single parent families, single mother families where they, you know, they're bearing the entire burden. You know, one of the things Haley and I have just written a piece for the Guardian where we looked a lot at healthcare workers who are majority women, you know, nurses and other healthcare professionals. And if they're in, you know, partnered with men, their husbands have really had to step up. So you're seeing kind of like a whole wide variety of different experiences for different families. And I'm wondering if that's something, you know, that you've been able to take a look at or, you know, kind of how this men stepping up more at home, how it might play out differently in different families depending upon your circumstance in the pandemic. Yeah, yeah. So we are starting to tease out sort of how these work characteristics among parents are associated with these changes. So we've been looking at, you know, the impact of unemployment, the impact of reducing hours, taking leave, the impact of telecommuting. And so the results generally show that that the more time that a parent is spending at home, the more work that they're doing. And so for men, you know, 40% of them in our survey are telecommuting. And so there's a notable increase in the amount of time they're spending doing housework and childcare when they're telecommuting. But men who also are losing their jobs or who have pulled back voluntarily are also doing more. And that's an interesting piece because past researchers show that, you know, when men are unemployed, or they're out earned by their partners that, you know, they sort of, you know, kind of assert their masculinity and refuse to do these feminine tasks. Right. So there's sort of a gender display notion to this. And we're not finding that right men have been available time. They are available time to good use right they are stepping up and doing more childcare and housework. You know, and, but you're right I mean, you know, the economic impact of the risk of the pandemic has hit women harder than it has hit men. But when one of the partners is an essential worker that men actually are more likely to be doing less at home. Yeah, so that's that's interesting. We're finding that, you know, the lack of childcare that women are more likely to be doing more but that doesn't impact what men are doing so childcare is disappeared and who's doing more of it women are doing more of it. And then also this this impact of the lack of schooling option you know it's not being able to send kids to school when families are producing e learning content for their kids they're responsible for finding it you know and setting it up. Right. Find that that both parents actually are doing more childcare and that respect and men are doing more housework to. That's an interesting kind of piece to this. But yeah definitely you know the work kind of situation matters and obviously the family structure matters and we only looked at couples but you know words on single parents I you know, God bless them. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So at this point, let me turn to Dan Herman so Dan, you are with the New York City dads group. You are also the primary caregiver from what I understand. So talk a little bit about your situation does what brings true to you. What, what's your situation been like before the pandemic how has the pandemic changed, you know, what's happening in your family and what you do as a as a dad as a caregiver. Thanks Bridget. Yeah, so I can resonate with what three people said prior in almost everything that you've identified so prior to the pandemic, or if you want to rewind to this time last year I was working as a tech executive for, you know, pretty big company, working on really big projects with large global banks. And, you know, in my wife got pregnant, March 13 of last year, and we, she gave birth to our daughter Aria, who is now almost seven months old so Congratulations. Thank you she was, and we're first time parents, and she was born on November 24. And I actually lost my job on November 15. Oh wow. Yeah it was pretty much shown the door, unceremoniously. Yeah, we were excited about having a baby, and everything went great. And I've certainly developed a new appreciation for women and my wife after having gone through that together but we had a plan where we were going to stay at home with our daughter for the first three months. And we met during that time. My wife ran into some issues. Nothing major but she was feeling isolated and going through breastfeeding is pretty difficult so Yeah, we look for solutions together and she found a support group full of moms. And it's really been life changing in that it's helped get her through, you know, some of the early parts of being a mother but it also helped us connect with people who we really created good relationships with that we spend time together. I've met a few other dads who have a daughter that are same age as mine and it's been such a great help for us. So not to belabor the story but we found a couple who lives close by. We live in Midtown, East in New York City who were in the group and we decided we were going to share a nanny together. And the first day back of work for my wife was the last day she went to the office. It was. Oh, wow. I think, yeah, it was March 9 and her office has been closed indefinitely and she works in the travel industry. So her industry has been battered and her company had to go through several stages of restructuring which were painful we didn't know if she was going to have a job. And, you know, it was a very stressful time, combined with the fact that we didn't know if we were safe because people were losing their lives left and right in the city so frightening. Yeah, so and I had just come back from San Francisco, and I had a job opportunity that fell through because of the pandemic. I hedged my bets and I had another opportunity and that also fell through so I've my role as you know someone who's constantly on the road. So working with very large companies, focus on big problems has changed to where I really have one responsibility and that's to support my wife and daughter and I empathize with what the gentleman said earlier and that, you know, I didn't rely on my with the person who is in charge of that responsibility. I think I particularly lacked the patience and the sensitivity to take care of a baby. I never held a baby. I'm the closest in age that I've spent time with a child is a two year old so I've never had no experience with kids. Wow, have a very small family so you know things have changed and That sounds like an understatement. If you've never held a baby and now you're like a, you know, totally in charge. Yeah, so tell us about how that's changed. Yeah, I think that, you know, there was a lot of tension in the house that was caused by me due to my, you know, just frustration and after a while it just becomes enough so you know I've, I guess I've, I just turned the corner about a month ago. I think a lot of the progress we've made as a city where things seem to be a little less restrictive now we started socializing a little more with our friends and family at a distance, trying to be responsible. So I think going back to some of the patterns of behavior before pandemic is just, you know, improved just our sense of well being but I didn't want to be the guy who created tension in the house. And I wanted to just enjoy and embrace whatever time I have with my daughter and watch her grow because I know pretty soon I'm going to be back to work. You know, she's going to be spending time in daycare so I, and it's funny it only occurred to me, five months after my wife joined a group for me to join. And, you know, I haven't met with these gentlemen yet but I'm starting to reach out more and try to speak with people who are, you know, sympathetic or even this discussion itself is very helpful because it's hard to understand or know what you're feeling if it's just me that's creating a problem or is this frustration that I should be dealing with or is it common for everyone else so I'm glad that I jumped into this I've never done a podcast before so I just thought it'd be fun. But I mean, I'm sorry. No, I just said, I'm glad you're here. You know, at this point what I'd love to do though is I'd like to bring Glenn Henry back in. And then Dan Herman I'm going to come back to you to see if some of this rings true. You know, when I when I spoke with Glenn the other day, he was saying that, you know, for many men this pandemic is is like a culture shock. You know, because he's home he's working at home and he said so when the 11 months old pounds on the door, you know, you pick that you pick the child up and, you know, completely changes how you how you go about your day. But he also talked a little bit about some of the tensions that that can that can occur with between, you know, men and women and Dan some some of what you'd brought up so if we could please play the clip of Glenn talking about laundry. With moms, you know, they they they want us to be around. But sometimes it's like we want you to I want you to do it this way. You know what I'm saying? It's not like no, I'm gonna do it like a dad does it because I'm a dad, you know what I mean? And just because it's not your way doesn't mean it's not right. You know, and so my wife and I have had plenty of conversations about that because, you know, sometimes like, I would wake up early and like just do laundry. And then, like she'd be like, thanks. But all the clothes are folded, not how they're supposed to be folded. But I'm like, yo, I did the laundry. But you know, like sometimes like it's kind of like she my wife wishes she had the capacity to do it herself. But she didn't have to ask me for help. And I've been trying to like help her understand like, listen, like I am here to help you. That is what I'm here for. Let me help. Like it's not going to be done correctly. Like, like you want to done is if you were doing it, but it will still be done so that you can, you know, put your energy elsewhere. You know, so, so Dan Herman, does that ring true to you that that's that sense of, you know, different standards and kind of do it my way or Yeah, I read a book about something like this. It's, I call it the narcissism of small differences. I, my wife and I have always been good at splitting up the work, the division of labor in the house. I don't mind doing things myself. I think with the baby, it was definitely like that. But I think it was more so in a sense that, you know, my mom, my wife's mothering instincts were kicking in. And for her, you know, nothing was good enough. She wanted to be a perfectionist. And there were some tensions around that, especially in the first two months when the baby wasn't sleeping through the night. I think once the baby started sleeping and we started sleeping, we had a lot more patience and talking through our parenting philosophies and it took almost six months but now it's sort of like a tag team effort where for the baby needs one of us is going to do it. And since we're in this tiny apartment, I know exactly when she's going to be on an important conference call which means it's my turn to take care of the baby. And she's pretty much the ambassador for the baby she takes care of the clothing, the feeding, introducing solids maintaining milestones, and I just sort of fill in when she's working so we have a good. I would say chemistry around that and it took about, you know, five, six months to build. You know, at this point, I want to turn to Haley. So Haley, you know, one of the things that struck me when Glenn was talking about doing the laundry he said that, you know, he wants to be a helper, he wants to help around the house. And even Dan, you know, just now you've talked about, you know, you do the fill in so to speak but that your wife is still figuring out what the clothes are and you know the sizes of things. And you know, you've written a lot about mental labor that sort of invisible load that that can really sometimes it's not measurable but can make the person doing that invisible labor feel even more burdened like it's even more work. What can you talk, can you tell us a little bit more about some of the invisible mental load. Sure. I mean, the one of the best ways to explain this to people I think is to think about the paid workforce where the job of strategy of vision and then finding out a way to execute that vision make sure it was followed up with. Not only is that a full job but it usually comes with a raise or a promotion you know that's that's management and that has to happen in the house to and so it's really important that when we think about the work that it takes to make a household run and function and to be happy and healthy place that that somebody is is making sure it gets done that that pickups are scheduled as they need to be that meals are planned that you've got the groceries on hand to make the nutritious meals that you want. And we know that it's overwhelmingly women who do this and that sometimes the mental load is kind of the last piece of the puzzle. Before it's solved that it's one thing to redistribute the kind of tangible concrete tasks in a household, and another to redistribute well who's going to think about this work. And one of the reasons for that is it's invisible and very often if you're not the one doing that work thinking through those problems and doing that problem solving. It's happening because it's happening so well, you know, things are happening in such a seamless way. So one of the pieces of advice that that we've been giving couples and, and that marriage therapist give couples is to make that work tangible by writing it down. You know, make it make it a thing who plans pick up and drop off who plans getting the kids homeschooling done with them who plans to play date. Actually list these things as tasks. These are planning development tasks, but they're really important. And it's important that you don't overlook those and you make sure that when a couple wants to divide up that work that's on the total list of things that you're going to split up. That's great advice. Yeah, that was something that early on I wish I had known. When my kids were little, you know, we're coming down on time. So, Dan Carlson, I want to give you the last word about like what, what could last and where do we go from here if we want to really lean into creating opportunities for couples to have gender equality or gender equity if that's what they choose, you know, you want to be able to form your family in whatever way it is that you want to form it but let me go back to Dan Herman for just really briefly. You know, Dan, I'm really curious you talked about, you know, you're spending all this time with your daughter now because of the pandemic and you're all sort of on top of each other in your apartment. But you do talk about at some point you're going to go back to work and your daughter is going to go off to childcare. And I wonder if, if you think because of the experience through the pandemic or, you know, being unemployed. Yeah, that will change the way that you're engaged or will that change the way that you, you do or think about yourself as a father even when you do go back to work. Yeah, that's a great question. I'm not sure I spent that much time thinking about that I know I definitely will experience some separation anxiety is my daughters deeply integrated to all of my routines now. I have such a strong bond with her now that it hurts just to think about sending her off to childhood. And then I think the other point you're referring to is like maybe just the guilt factor of focusing on myself now that I'm not taking her all the time. I think it's just something I have to do because we live in Manhattan and it's expensive to live here. And we're living in austerity now. Where, you know, our income is about 50% of what it was last year and costs are only going up so it's important for me to get back in the workforce. I'm sure I'll appreciate my time with her much more now. I'm very grateful for this experience I wouldn't change it for anything not for a million dollars. Okay, well, great. And we'll see what happens in the future. You know, so down down Carlson, let me let me turn to you talking about the future. You know, you're saying again through some of the research you're showing that while it's not utopia it's not Nirvana we're not we're not at parody. There is movement toward more gender equality. And what I wonder is, you know, once things open up we will we have a vaccine will things snap back or or could this be lasting what are and and if it's going to be lasting what will it take. Um, it's a good question. Right. And obviously the the future is yet to be written. But what we know about men who take leave and who stay at home that research shows that even if they go after they go back to work, they still remain engaged and do more housework and childcare than before leave. And so that suggests that even if we kind of stand back into, you know, similar work patterns as before, that the amount of housework and childcare that men are doing now that that increase at that level will be maintained. And that levels of equality will will stay heightened and it'll be a new normal. But at the same time, going back to the structural issues, we don't know what's going to happen with childcare. And we don't know what's going to happen with schools. But we do know people are going to go back to work. And that's really where the rubber hits the road right is is okay so we're all going back to to our jobs. Many of us will leave telecommuting and go back to two offices, but will childcare and schools also open and will we have those same supports that that we used to have. And there's also still the possibility that we'll have more supports than before the pandemic I mean some jobs will never go back to the office I have a neighbor who works at Young Living here in Salt Lake City right and they do essential oils and things like this. And he told me the other day that that he's never going back to the office they've gave them money and to create remote offices, and they have no intentions of letting those those workers come back. Well that happened for a lot of other companies who knows, but it's a possibility right that, you know, we'll have more flexibility right in our jobs than we used to. And that bodes well. So, you know, some signs are positive and some, you know, might be negative so again, we'll just have to see. All right, we'll have to see a haley and we're going to give you the last word and then we'll then we'll wrap up. To echo what what Professor Carlson was was saying there I think that is is really significant. The truth is from this study, I found, you know, these calls for men to do more to care more the idea that we want involved dads in the United States. People's hearts and minds are there for the, for the vast majority of American parents they say we want equal parenting. We want shared responsibility, but they're doing this under duress you know trying to find these solutions like Dan Herman is talking about on 50% of their regular income. This is a struggle. This is a country that doesn't even guarantee paid maternity leave, let alone paternity leave to fathers. This is a country where childcare is falling apart right before our eyes and it was already a pretty tattered and broken system, only about half of childcare centers have reopened. And childcare has been given $3.5 billion of support where, you know, Delta Airlines alone has been given $5 billion. So if as a country we really want to allow parents to be able to be conscientious and deliberate about sharing the load. We need to provide them the policy and economic support that they they need to be able to do that. Absolutely. Well, I want to thank all of the panelists for being here today for sharing your stories and your perspectives. I want to thank the participants. We had some lively chat. Thank you so much for sharing those resources and stories as well. And I want to thank the new America events team, the better life lab I want to give a shout out to Jed Zaya St Julian who works for our program she's the one who connected us with Glenn Henry and belief and fatherhood which is a fantastic YouTube channel if you haven't seen it do check it out. The videos are really fun and great. I also want to thank David Shulman our producer. Thank all of you for being here next week we're going to be looking at telemedicine equity and the future of medicine and how that will impact work and care systems and I hope all of you stay safe. Wash your hands. And we'll see you next week.