 We're going to start with a panel on mapping for property rights, which is going to discuss the fact, as Mr. Rabley just mentioned, that many people in developing nations lack property rights. They may go without formal title. They may be subject to illegal land grabbing and may be subject to encroachments upon their land, deforestation, palm oil plantations, other illegal usage. As Mr. Rabley noted, these people find it difficult to gather the information that they need to prove that they live on this land and that they have the right to it. UAVs help these people level the proverbial playing field. They make it inexpensive and relatively easy to gather this imagery. That's one of the most revolutionary aspects of UAVs, in my opinion. With these images, they can make their own geo-reference in a geospatially accurate map so they can use to defend their rights in court, as has been documented in Indonesia and other locations. Our panel today brings together Mr. Aldo Watanavi from Peru. He works at the Ministry of Culture and has been helping to run their fascinating drone archaeology program. Janine Mera of the Land Alliance has been working on a really interesting project where they're using UAVs to help people engage in participatory mapping in Peru. And finally, Mr. Gregor McLennan of Digital Democracy has been working with Wapishana people in Guyana to help them document their traditional lands to a very large and help them to document illegal usage of their land. So we'll begin with presentations on their work and we'd like to begin with Mr. Watanavi. I'll be going first. So, yeah, please come up. You can present the podium. Okay. Hi, everyone. I want to start this presentation by thanking the organizers, especially Fran Greenwood, for the invitation to present my work. Sorry, I need to read my paper. My mother language is Spanish, so I can't speak English. My name is Aldo Watanavi. I am responsible for the application of the drones and the protection of cultural heritage of the Ministry of Culture of my country, Peru. Peru is located in South America, bordering Ecuador, Brazil, Colombia, and Chile. The country is divided by the mountain range of the Cordillera de los Andes, creating three natural regions that cause highlands and the jungle. The Cordillera de los Andes allowed development of many cultures throughout Peru. During 10,000 years of history, cultures such as Chavin, Moche, Chimú, De Incas, and many others contributed to the development of our magnificent past. But now there remains this ancient culture disappearing. In Peru, one archaeological site is destroyed by mining companies, natural disaster, construction, agriculture, looters, and others. This was an archaeological site that was destroyed by urban growth. This site in the south of Lima was demolished by the company using a bulldozer in 2013. This year, farmers destroyed a geoglyph in Peru in Trujillo and north of Lima. As you can see in the image, only a small part remains. This site was destroyed in 2006 by a mining company that was extracting sand. With an archaeological site in the way, it was impossible to continue. Once the excavation was complete, it was destroyed. As they say in Peru, you can love what you don't understand. At the end of 2013, the Ministry of Culture created a special investigation unit. The new technology department is an area that uses drones to understand the current condition of archaeological sites through photogrammetry. In the field, we collect geodata using a differential GPS to reference the site in question. In the office, we use this information to create three different models and different maps with RGIS to understand the state of the site. With this data, the Ministry of Culture created an online archaeological geographic information system, SIDGA in Spanish. This website is used as an online database with information about pre-spanning archaeological sites. It includes information such as the location, measurements, and basic information about recorded sites. Users can see the location of the Inca Trail in red, archaeological site in orange, and the site where companies had special permission to build roads and buildings without destroying the remains in yellow. Additionally, users can see images from the drones. In this picture, we can see the satellite image of an archaeological site. Here we see the same site more closely. This is the maximum zoom of the satellite image. Finally, we can see the image captured by the drone. With this, users can see the site in excellent quality. Right now, even the Ministry of Culture doesn't know how many sites exist in Peru. In 2013, the Ministry of Culture bought one drone that I flew over for a year. Last year, they bought four optocopters and five quadricopters. With this equipment, we have recorded almost 700 sites in Lima. I think it's a short number, but it's something. To better explanation our work with the drones, I have some examples where you can see their application in the protection of archaeological sites. The free example is El Huarco. This is a big site close to the beach in Canita District, South Lima. We visited this site because the only piece of land next to the site wanted to build a new house. So we flew over the site and created an ortho-photo to match the official limit with current topography. Once they overlapped the property and site limits, we saw that their property extended into the site and building their co-destroyed archaeological remains. Her building request was denied. In further analysis of these images, we found that other homes has crossed the border of the site. Currently, those people are being sued by the Ministry of Culture for the destruction of cultural heritage. Huacoy is located in Caravaggio District, to the north of Lima, dates to 15 years before Christ. This year, we received a request to review property lines inside the site. Somehow, the land owners update legal titles and sold them to poor people. And their lands create four neighborhoods inside the archaeological site where people build their homes. We overlapped the site limits with a map of the house and aerial image obtained with the drones. As you can see here, it will be impossible to move the people. Moreover, the site has already been damaged beyond restoration. Nonetheless, we can save the areas to both sites and the principal month of the site. Now the Ministry of Culture working a new border of the site to be sure that in the future is not destroyed. This site also demonstrated the true power of the drones in the protection of archaeological site. The day we worked of this site, we found city workers building a landfill on the site, as you can see here. This was the first time that we have heard evidence of the destruction of the site. But it was a great surprise that to learn that the local city council was responsible. Now the Ministry of Culture is in court to charge the Caribbean City Council for crimes against cultural heritage. Pena Perdida is located in Pachacamac District to the south of Lima. The Ministry of Culture received a report that someone was building on part of the site. Our team was sent to take a picture. We found that the person house did not affect the site, as you can see in the image. That's the result of the dispute between Maybord. However, while we were flying over another part of the site, we saw that a different house invaded the site. Once we overlapped the sublimit with the image from the drone, it was very clear that this house invited off the site. You can see in the image. The Ministry of Culture is in the process to feeling a claim to sue the owner of this house. The most infamous destruction of archaeological site was produced paradoxically by Greenpeace. The Nazca lights are located to south of Lima. In this 2012 picture, we can see the famous Hamburg. Pay attention to the lower left corner of this image. This image was taken by Greenpeace, where you can see their message in large ledges. The next day, we took this picture of the white lines and letter C. This image will be used in the law suit against the organization. The new technology like drones are powerful tools in the protection of preservation of cultural heritage. The Ministry of Culture understands the importance of using the flight against the destruction of archaeological site. With the combination of aerial image from the drones and use the GIS, the Ministry has identified that many private properties invade the intangible areas of the site. Future invasion can be prevented or penalized with a document of current condition. With this work, the Ministry can further approve the completion of necessary construction projects near archaeological site by verifying the world no invite archaeological remains. The big obstacle in the protection of cultural heritage is that the Ministry of Culture cannot build all places at once. Drones give the ability to see the condition of more sites in less time. Furthermore, with maps and images made using drones, we can show a new perspective to the public and encourage people to become involved in protection of their sites. We hope that in the future we can stop invasion and destruction. Thank you very much. I'd like to welcome Janina Mera to discuss her work with land alliance. Good morning. I hope you all forgive the lack of slides but they are available on the land alliance website. Feel free to peruse at your pleasure there. You'll see me looking down to catch my bearings here. I am here to present the awesome work that we are doing in Peru as well in the province of Ayacucho. This is in conjunction with the Ayacucho government and our partners Geosystem South America which is a Peruvian geotechnology firm and Thomson Reuters. We have been looking at the problem of the resegados. Over the last couple of decades, the Peruvian government funded with a lot of loans from the IDV, they took a big view of the entire country and systematically titled almost three million parcels. Of those, 2.1 million were actually registered and titled. What happened to the other 900,000? That's kind of the problem that we are looking at and this is what they call the resegados. Systematic titling works when you are trying to do big expansive regions but when you are trying to look at these little pockets, it doesn't make sense to mobilize these huge teams. What we are doing is we are uniting the technology of the UAVs, the participatory element of really bringing in the communities from the very beginning and also engaging the government from the start so that uniting the government, the communities and technology, we can really bring back legitimacy to the process of titling and everything. If you guys will give me two seconds to bring up. The title for our approach is UAV-based participatory e-formalization. We have a wonderful flow chart that describes the technology track and the community basis but I will talk you guys through it here. The first part of the project really is the project planning and we collect the existing cartography and the previous parcel and tenure information. We get together with the community for the initial meetings as well as have sensitization and learning sessions with the communities and that's really kind of the beginning to make sure that this is something that carries on longer than the initial process is something really getting the communities invested in the process and really teaching them why it's important for them to have these titles and continue with renewing and registering and with each transfer making sure that that continues so that's kind of the very beginning and then after the first couple of days of that then the community themselves goes out and they mark their parcels so we are trying a couple of different ways one of which is marking the corners another is using Lyme to actually outline what their parcels are and so this is really neat because they get to physically walk their boundaries so this helps them again one get invested two it limits disputes because when you're looking at the neighbor and you say oh yeah I mark that so when you're looking at it later on then you can say okay yeah that's what I had agreed to so then we have the UAVs that go up and they capture all the aerial imagery and it's very fast they do the post-processing overnight and then the next day we come back out to the communities and the community well all the maps and everything that they have done on the corners or on the ground everything is digitized so when we bring the communities in together with a mediation specialists to kind of look at the map and look at everything that has done they go through and the the software that we're using is the Thompson Reuters software which will enable them to put together not just the spatial data but also the administrative data of who are the owners of the parcels who's who's supposed to be registered on this and collect everything in this nice and neat little packet that then is handed over to the regional government and it's actually done in conjunction with the regional government but so we superimpose the old the old digital boundary or the old boundaries from the old maps on top of these newly digitized lines and take care of any discrepancies that may still exist then we during this this working meeting with the communities and really at the end the whole process kind of summing it all down at the end the regional governments can have this nice neat little packet of information containing the spatial information nice orthophotos when we flew the first planes the first UAVs in la Libertad and in Ayacucho we got very very good accuracy we had a couple of problems with ground control points in la Libertad which is the first time we flew it but then on the second round we did much much better and it had something like 20 centimeters accuracy so so very much much perhaps not well let's just say that it's a very fit for purpose way of getting all the information out there and so then the regional governments can use this to go to the registry and get everything ready and titled and everything to the communities very very quick so the entire process takes about including the community sensitization part and the flying and having the working meeting the entire process can be done in 10 days and that's even including you know a little bit of leeway for whether or whatnot so it's very very fast instead of having the satellite images which one is removed from the community so it can take years for the procurements can take forever to get everything flown and then finally when when it comes back to the community they're just like oh well yeah things have changed since then but this this is just super fast one two three we're in take the pictures have the community verify do they agree do they not agree get involved in the process and then out to the government in 10 days super fast so the kind of the highlights of the community track are what basically what I've been saying transparency collaboration from the beginning from everybody and really the process goes beyond just consulting the community instead it gives ownership back to the community of the process of creating not just the maps but their titling and a vision of their village and in their community and one thing that I kind of glossed over is that we also have a forum for mitigating disputes so instead some of those resagados are still stuck in litigation so this this particular way you have the neighbors sitting down one next to the other saying okay well we think this no it's this but then you also have not just those two neighbors but the rest of the community saying hey we know your dad this was actually the area it was supposed to be and we know what happened like two set two generations ago so this isn't a nice way to have the community kind of work through their problems without having to get into lawsuit situations in the future and another good aspect of this is it's also the transfer of technological knowledge and participatory best practices to the local governments so the community and government working together really bolsters legitimacy strengthens responsiveness and encourages good land governance I know we're supposed to be quite short in these presentations so I will do my best to cut it a little bit down but really the next steps that we're really looking at are continuing coordination with the government of Ayacucho to test and refine the entire approach our initial stuff has been quite great so we'd like to put it all together and really just get it done the government of Ayacucho is very very interested in keeping everything going and they're trying to do their best to get everything organized on the ground and ready so we'd like to test continue testing this approach in Ayacucho but then also we would like to test it out in a couple other geographic zones Ayacucho is in the mountainous region we have tested it in the coastal of la libertad and we would really like to test it out in what's called the Sierra de selva which is the mixed like some jungle some more productive kind of landscapes so that's kind of the area that we're going to next and what we're what we're aiming for so hopefully if please check out the presentation on the land Alliance website and if you have any questions can answer them for you next we'll be hearing from a Gregor McLennan from a digital democracy who will describe his work in Guiana good morning everybody thanks for coming out my name is can you hear me okay yeah my name is Gregor McLennan I am program director at digital democracy we're a small nonprofit that works with marginalized communities around the world to empower them to use technology to defend their rights a lot of our work right now is with indigenous peoples living in the Amazon rainforest these are two atua community members from northern Peru you have three Peru style topics at the beginning of the talk although I'm also talking about Guiana this is in the area of Peru affected by oil contamination in the project that has been going since the 70s and we've been looking at how technology can help communities document and report on environmental violations in Peru in Guiana in Ecuador we've been working involving both more traditional technologies like a digital camera and more recently trying to explore how drones can be a tool not just as a research organizations from the outside coming in but can this actually be a tool that the communities themselves can use to monitor and document what is happening on their lands and we started getting involved with getting interested in drones last year kind of asking questions about how they could be applied to the work we do with different communities and one question we have was who's gonna fly the drone there are I don't want to be the person coming in and flying a drone over somebody's house to gather information even if it's helping him in the in the long term or her in the long term we're working with communities that are often marginalized and disempowered and we want the process of working with technology to be something that is empowering for them and reduces our inequality and makes them feel that they're participating more in decisions about what's happening on their land so our first question was yeah can can we train people that have never used a drone before also have never played a computer game before so the act of learning how to fly a drone is something new and yeah we have found that people have learned how to become great pilots and it's I mean especially quadricopters are very easy to learn how to use planes the landing takeoff it's a really hard thing especially if you don't have a nicely manicured field to come and come and land it and take off and you're trying to land in an area of forest or even a clearing that may look clear but then you have scrub all over the place that you have to avoid when you land but then it's not just being able to pilot this thing there's this aspect of you're bringing this expensive foreign technology in which seems magic to people and that can whilst the people we're working with are piloting what about the rest of the village members when this is flying overhead who owns this what is this doing so when we went down to Guyana last year I went down with the drone and the plan was actually to to build the drone before I went down there they were interested in using a fixed-wing plane to reach hard to hard to reach areas deep in the forest where gold miners are informal small-scale gold miners are rapidly clearing the large areas of forest and I ran out of time I was disorganized and by the time we got to leaving the field I'd managed to buy all the components and design what we wanted to build but I hadn't finished it so I just shoved everything in my bag took it down there and turned up in the village with just a bunch of polystyrene and motors and a soldering iron and we all set to work together trying to build the drone and I was really surprised at how it turned out I've worked with communities indigenous communities in the Amazon before training about how to use technology and smartphones it's really hard for people have never used something like that before to learn the user interface to learn how to operate a computer working with a drone it's a physical technology and these are people who use in their hands all the time and it was great because the skills that they have like how to put together a hunting camp or how to fix a motorbike or how to fix a motor on their boat could be directly applied to building a drone and these are also people that are used to dealing with a lack of resources and making do with what they have so a lot of work with drones especially DIY drones at this time means you've got to make stuff up you we had for example an air sensor there was no mounting for the air sensor in the drone we just had to attach it in some way so I just said to the team hey we've got to put this an inch away from the wing and it's got to be mounted out the front and away from the air stream and they searched around found an old beer crate which is a right type of plastic they sort it down to the little strip they put a hole through it they put a velcro strip through it and attach the sensor to the front so one the people are amazing engineers and are great at thinking out the box and two this was hugely empowering for the community because then this was not my technology that I was bringing in or the white man's technology from the outside this was the Wapashan drone and this is something that everybody in the villages that we went when we flew the drone they were like wow this is ours like our own people build this this is something we bought from China we own this and we're flying this so that was great so our next question was how can how can a drone contribute to local advocacy efforts like how is this actually useful I mean it's great it's cool what can you actually do with it we last year took a quadcopter down to Ecuador really kind of like let's see what we can do with it and a quadcopter is a great as a kind of photography and video tool I think primarily and being able to basically get that new perspective on in particular this case on land change and forest use this is an African oil plant plantation in Ecuador and it kind of you use it in the same way as a photograph it's a powerful media hook but it gives a whole new perspective suddenly you can understand just how large these oil palm plantations are and how much area forest is being destroyed and this is useful for the outside world but it's also a really important tool of reflection within a village who had not been outright opposed to these oil plantations but have been concerned about it when they see how fast these things are expanding sometimes within their land title sometimes outside their land title sometimes in areas which are traditionally theirs but not legally recognizes theirs it always through this new perspective out what's happening in our territory now we can see it we need to do something about we need to start discussing these rapid changes and how they're going to affect our lives also in when we had this quartercopter down there we were discussing with the community and they brought up this land invasion issue they had on the southern border of their territory that they had what they call colonos people coming down from the mountains opening up new farms and areas illegally inside their recognized land title and they had been fighting for years to try and get the government to do something about this but it had all been verbal testimony essentially people have been going to town and saying hey somebody's in our land so we took the drone down and the gathered some imagery and put it together into an interactive map and this is some aerial imagery from a few years before that we found and we were able to overlay it with the imagery that gathered from the drone I think here we hit upon the limitations of quadricopters it was a 2 kilometer strip the batteries only last 15 minutes we have three batteries we walked out to the end of it we flew the quadricopter up we ran in the forest underneath flew it back down again and then basically ran for two kilometers through tropical rainforest carrying a screen and a controller but the images really told a whole new and powerful story and really helped visualize how the yellow line is a boundary of the territory is it yellow or green I'm colorblind good and helps show very clearly how this land was being invaded sorry the other way that we're exploring the usage of drones is in in terms of monitoring not necessarily making maps but looking at the case of northern Peru and the oil project that's happening there this is an oil pipeline running through a remote area of rainforest there are spills along these pipelines every few months once a year but it's very hard to access definitely not by road and even hard to access by foot so one idea we're looking to explore is whether we can use a drone as a monitoring tool a surveillance tool to run the length of the pipelines and whether this is a remote area where it's not very easy for some drone expert to kind of roll in and do the flight so the question is can this be something the local communities can do and manage and control themselves this is just an example of I mean I'm sure many of you have seen drone imagery but this is an example of some of the possibilities this is in Guyana this is a map of a village it was created from 500 drone images this was using Pix4D the free version of their software that allows you to make a video walkthrough and we showed this to the communities and discussed well how could this be useful to you and one of the first things they come up with was well while we can look at our land from this new perspective this is a great way of opening discussions about land use management this is a way that we can monitor how our farming areas are expanding or contracting over time how the forest areas are changing over time and this can be a basis of land use discussions within our own communities and it can help hold some people within our own communities to account about what they're doing so I'm really interested in how this can be not just an external tool but also an internal tool for for discussions and finally mining you know this is an informal gold mining in the Amazon rainforest it is hugely destructive often people living nearby are not even aware of how quickly these mines are expanding and affecting the forest because there's no reason if you live there to go and visit and hang out on a mine unless you're working there we've been working with community monitoring programs and community monitors who are going in and documenting where this is happening and taking photographs there are security issues around that a drone is a great way of accessing and documenting these sites without putting having to put somebody there on the ground standing amongst the people working the mine we were worried maybe that people would see the flame flying overhead and we quickly realized once we started flying the plane around in Guyana that we're flying at 300 feet in the air and you can't even make it out if you're looking for it you know this is some this is a way of surveying and documenting what is happening and the images again they can serve as an advocacy tool to raise awareness nationally and internationally about what is happening but they're also a really important tool internally for people to understand how these mines are expanding how they're affecting them the local position is not no to mining but the question is how much mining is too much what are the limitations where should it happen and where shouldn't happen and the images from drones can help people make that decision the final question was processing and using the information like can this be something also that the communities themselves can do are they going to rely on experts from the outside doing it and that's important we're not just looking at empowerment and technology we're looking at empowerment and information and control of information and how the communities can leverage that information for their own needs and decide how it is used and how it is published the interactive map I showed you of Ecuador of the land invasion it's not it's it's cool to look at if you have access to internet if you're in the community or you're in a meeting with a local government official where there's a rarely a powerpoint or an internet connection you need stuff to be printed out so we need to be thinking through workflows that include printed maps and paper because that's how you can have a discussion around a paper map it's very hard to have an open discussion around the laptop screen and this was a kind of highlight the sort of limitations of drones the areas we're working at normally with traditional communities that have communal land titles rather than individual land titles they're not or their land use and their land rights are not based on their farm use but they're based in traditional land use and this is what you see this is actually a satellite images of digital globe area one of the few areas in the Amazon where you have high-resolution imagery but if you had a drone you wouldn't see anything more than more details of the trees this drone could reinforce the idea that this is an empty area and doing the work with community mapping in an area like this helps show the network of streams which is underneath the canopy the network of hunting paths the different types of plants and their different use for medicinal use for fruits for use for house building the hunting camps all of these things are not things you can see from the end no matter how detailed resolution you get so I think it's important to bear in mind that drones can be a powerful tool but they don't necessarily tell the whole story when we're talking about land rights or land usage and this was just quickly to talk about the technology and the software tools around this this is moving fast all the time some people might be familiar with some of the open-source software for setting up a mission this is a screen that you can bring up if you want to georeference images that come back from a drone this is not very easy to teach somebody how to use there's one button in the middle here that says georef images and there's a bunch of buttons that you can press and can mess a lot of things up and this is a screen for georeferencing images these it's fantastic that these tools exist and so many new features are always been added that allow us to do so much but the the sort of next step I think is trying to make these easier and more accessible there's been some great work on the mobile apps being able to do that at the moment they only work for quadricopters and not for planes some of the commercial apps are making things easier how can we the open source world move towards making the technology around planning drone missions and processing information from drones more accessible and easier to use so summarizing the uses we gives us a new perspective it can help raise media awareness of an issue they can be used for mapping and land use they can monitor how to reach places and the challenges local ownership and maintenance the complications of the technology and the software around it and how we can the time it takes to train somebody takeoff and landing it's really hard when you're flying a plane quadricopters don't fly that far and vast areas of rainforest processing measures you need an electricity supply that's going to run for 24 36 hours without breaking off which is hard in a lot of places and thinking about how to make this imagery useful for at a local level at a local advocacy and regional advocacy level as well as of international communications level and how we can tell the full story drones are one tool that can help tell this story but it's important to also bear in mind the the other storytelling tools and the research tools that we have available that that that can complement this information to tell a bigger story of land rights and land use change thank you very much and now I'd like to invite our all our panelists to the stage for our questions I'll ask a few questions and then I will take questions from the audience okay well I thank you for joining us today we really appreciated your the conversation so far I like to ask a couple questions of you of you all and then I'll open it to the audience my first question would be what was the most challenging aspect of using UAVs in your field work although I can respond to an Spanish I'll try well the most difficult part of working is trying to convince the population within this archaeological sites and demonstrate that with this so it's looking at how we can work with the people living within these archaeological sites to convince them that we're not just looking to take away their lands but we're looking to work with them to on how we can balance the preservation of our archaeological history with with the current current needs thank you although yeah the technology this seems very new and it's it's hard to find information about it which is accessible to somebody that doesn't already know a lot about drones and you know just what you've written in the book right now really kind of breaks down a lot of stuff that if I had two years ago would have made everything a lot simpler there's a whole load of information in page 100 of some online forum which is really useful but hard to find and the technology is is fantastic but it's still a lot of it's the kind of hobbyist technology the commercial side of things there's a lot of work to be done to make it simpler and more accessible but the price makes it inaccessible so more and more we're seeing more commercial focused drones which are easier to learn and easier to use so that I think that barrier is dropping all the time but it's been a challenge issues for you and land alliance surprisingly one of the issues that we have faced is a little bit of resistance from the regional governments from the the technical folks that are on the ground and sort of like this fear that the UAV technology is going to replace what they do on the ground and so part of the challenge is to get them to understand that this isn't replacing what they do because they are crucial in this entire process because the UAVs they take pretty pictures but they still need people to analyze and interpret those pictures and those images and contextualize the ortho photos in a way that people can use them so that has been a challenge and it has actually been quite rewarding to be able to see the people kind of go through that process and really understand and be like oh yeah we really want to do this this is perfect so my second question would be what have you found to be the most effective way to engage local people and what you're doing and how have you found ways to engage people and help them participate in the process how have we found the most effective way to look for the participation of the community in the process of working with the UAVs well it's very difficult until now we haven't found a way for the solution so it's a very difficult problem we haven't yet find a good solution of dealing with the situation of invaders into archaeological sites so we're still struggling to convince people that we must preserve the past that this is important yeah building a drone with the local community and that resulting in the sense that this is something that they're doing and it's not somebody from the outside that's monitoring them and was was really important for the participation and people who wanted to do the same things you might do if you're coming from the outside with an environmental perspective you know there they have the same questions about how to manage land use and manage land use change and if they're not feeling that somebody else is coming in monitoring them they're much more open to kind of discussing that and using this technology and and kind of really kind of involving everybody in that discussion locally and you know involving the community is kind of the the main part of our approach and the way that we have found a way to do this and really involve all of the community many times when community participation elements are brought into a project women stay home take care of the kids they don't really get involved in the process so one of the ways that we were really trying to involve all the community involving including women and youth is we are providing daycare for the kids so the women can come the actually the government of Ayacucha is providing food for the entire community so therefore women don't have to like leave in the middle to go and make dinner for the men that are at the at the presentation or at the these interactive meetings and really that's something that's also very important to point out during the sensitizing or sensitization sessions it's not us preaching to the community but rather it's really this give and take this interactive really asking the community what they think about the the titling and what their uses would be and really having this dialogue with the community where they feel a little bit more of ownership in the process fantastic now we'd like to take some audience questions yes yeah there's a mic democracy that sort of extends for everyone what kind of government permission did you get and you know more broadly in cases where the government may be actually the problem which didn't sound like the case so much in Peru but how do you think about if the government is the encroacher and may not want information to be disseminated about what it's doing how do you handle that in the two countries where we've we've experimented with drones in the community in Ecuador and Guyana haven't been able to find any clear information about permissions and whether they're needed or what that involves it's come up with customs officials coming into the country and their responses kind of being I don't really know go ahead so there's a lot there's a big lack of clarity and it's really important that as this moves forward and and issues around using this for community activism move forward to get clarity and understand the risks you know is this something as this work is going to be easy to continue there's there's very few clear legal frameworks or information about what to do and I think this is very new for a lot of countries and they're not ready they haven't really got something in place anyone else or can move on yes sir hello I was intrigued by the comment that the canopy prevents you from seeing a lot of the patterns of behavior etc. underneath are you have you thought about any expansion of thermal mapping and thermal imaging together with this imaging and how many layers would you could you add to in a sense create a more realistic profile of what might be occurring below the canopy yes yes and the I mean land use and land rights particularly in the context of indigenous people come from traditional historical land use so you may be we may be talking about an area that is important because of its historical context or its spiritual importance to the community but having said that there is for example using infrared imagery to analyze different forest types a lot of what you're seeing in that draw map I played but there was the identification of different fruiting trees which can attract animals and people know down to a certain level like in this area there are this cluster of fruiting trees that are going to attack attract tortoise in May and then we can all have to suit because that's where they're going to be and you're using infrared imagery on a drone can help pick out those different types of trees I'm really excited by those possibilities because it's kind of it's further evidence of what people saying all of this is like people are saying this and the imagery can gather they kind of backs them up it adds more power to their argument this is I know this territory that belongs to me and we should have a lot rights from that recognized this area and that's like anybody else or yeah would you like that so one of the things that we're thinking about for exactly those mixed mixed cover kind of situations or full cover is trying to really see how the use of maybe lidar mounted on the planes could really help us look down and at the at the floor a little better but that's still kind of in the process of being developed not really right about yet. Yes. Yes. Yeah. I'm Tara Oh from Pacific Forum CSIS. I normally do national security so this is a different field but first of all thank you for your presentation. Greg you mentioned that access to information is very empowering and that's something that we'd like to promote. Has anyone thought of using the drones to provide internet service to remote locations? I know you talked about the problem of the battery but has that been a consideration? I thought about but I have no idea how to do it but internet access is hugely important because most of these areas don't have any internet access and in the Amazon there's no cables running in so you satellite internet is your only option and it's cost prohibitive and very slow and in terms of accessing imagery over the internet or sending drone photographs up to be processed in the cloud it's impossible and seems far away from many places even from you know jungle cities like Iquitos for example in Peru where I lived for a while it's at 400,000 people in the city but the internet is still really slow and not really feasible to do good cloud processing or anything so yeah if somebody figures out a way to provide internet via drones fantastic but yeah if we can access something other than just Facebook through it that would be great. Anybody else? Okay next question. Yes, Anthony. Tony Cuadero special network so I guess the question I would have is listening to the presentation is so what? So what's next? So you know whether you're monitoring illegal logging, gold mining, encroachment on archaeological sites, how is what you're achieving with the drones being used to try to understand why people are doing what it is that you're observing whether it's illegal logging or you know tapping an oil pipeline and causing a leak or you know what comes next now that you've kind of done this initial research. Now the problem in Peru is I don't know it's the problem but we have a lot of archaeological sites. I think the last year the ministry has we have 10,000, 100,000 archaeological sites in Peru so the city always grows. I think the next ministry of culture needs to be more, it needs to be a little more in those cities. It needs to be more present on the ground for protection on the protection of the archaeological site when the people destroy the archaeological site because for the Ministry of Culture doesn't exist. When the people see the drones from the Ministry of Culture on one side on all the other side, they'll think that they exist now. When they see the drones then they're going to understand that this really exists, that something is there. It's going to engage people. Yeah it's a really good question and I think one, the mapping with drones can help strengthen legal processes to get land rights recognized. I haven't done much, you've probably done far more in like how that can be used. The power just of the media tool, whether or not it is a legal issue of land rights but just understanding violations of environmental code of oil spills or dumping into a river and having that imagery that can act, one in the press of leveraging media attention against something or second within a kind of administrative process with something equivalent of the EPA of kind of going there and having something to show that helps support what you're saying. And third, the land use management, the discussions that it's starting to open up within the communities, we really believe that local communities are the most important partners to sustainably manage forests and resources and the imagery provided by drones can provide the information that can motivate those discussions and help guide those discussions that people are having locally to make land management discussions. But I think there's a lot of kind of new examples, I don't think we've got enough evidence to kind of say, yeah this is great, there's one of many tools that we have and it's a great new one but we need to keep on experimenting and seeing what works and what doesn't. And I see our project as something as preventing the illegal mining and logging and all of that because really secure property rights are the bedrock for community development. And so in being able to go through and help these communities and these individuals within the communities title their land and create that security, they will be able to protect the land, they will be able to, they have more incentive to invest in their land and all of that kind of leads to this rural development where therefore they won't, they will be able to not only protect their land from encroachers but also they themselves will have a reason to work on their own land and not also be encroaching on other territory or other logging or anything like that. So it's kind of not the retroactive, okay we need to take care of this, it's the looking forward proactive, this is a way to move forward kind of solution. All right, one more question? Anybody? Yes. I'm wondering if you've seen any reaction from the people that you have been monitoring? Sort of a thought I've been playing around with is that launching a drone is a provocative act and the industries and the people that you're talking about have a financial interest in what they're doing. Have they started paying attention to what you're doing? Have they started changing the way that they're behaving to try to hide more? Are you worried that these moneyed interests will go to the government and get you shut down? I guess that's what I'm wondering is have you noticed a reaction and are you worried about that? And what's your name? My name is Matt Wade, I'm with the University of Nebraska. Thank you. What do you say? Are you worried that the government is going to close the project because there are other economic interests? Yes, before the last last month the Ministry of Transportation and Communication created a new regulation, the drones, to say if you paid someone for fly the drones or work with the drones it's illegal. Now if this is a very hard for us because now our work is illegal. It's incredible. Create a specific restriction to say you can use the drone for protect the archaeological site. Use the drones for forests and specific points to get all the protection of the environment. Create a specific form for restriction. Many people in Peru think that it's not restriction for protection of their privacy or properties, the people. Instead thinking about it for business that it can generate within the country. Now we work in destroying this new destruction. Then this regulation. We're working to try and take down this new regulation. Yeah, it's a risk. There are different directions it could go and there are ways that you could remove this empowerment. A country could easily pass a legislation that says only a licensed drone operator can fly and then suddenly you're stuck with this situation of the outsider coming in flying and that changes people's reactions on the ground. Do they feel somebody's monitoring them? It's not received very well. If people are controlling it themselves then they're more likely to open it. I think there is a reaction. When we first started playing around and testing we were working with a few members from a community on the river bank and they were learning how to fly and they flew up along the river to the next house and the first reaction to the next house who didn't know about it was like hey what's that drone doing? Then they found it was their neighbors and it was people from their community flying and they were cool with it but we realized that you can't just fly a drone over somebody without their consent without speaking to them about it first. Since we're not going over contentious sites such as the illegal mining or logging or whatever we what we have gotten is curiosity by neighboring communities where they'll fly the UAV and then people from next door well not even next door but the neighboring community over that sees this little plane flying will come over and be like hey what's going on we actually in Ayacucho during the last round there was a bus of people that came over to to see what was what was happening so it's mainly curiosity. All right well thank you guys so much and that's it. We'll move on to our next panel.