 Okay. Welcome back. Yeah. So thank you once again, Samuel, for that. I really hope that helped you to get some, you know, a bit of an understanding, a glimpse of, you know, how this works. I just want to bring about a question, not a question. I think it was an observation that Christopher made. Christopher, you made an excellent observation. So what he's written, Christopher's written, the question that should have been asked is, what are the areas that Samuel is critical of in the two churches? Something may be, some things may, some things may be wrong in these churches. This may not be a father-son relationship problem, but Samuel sees things that are going wrong in the church and is unable to tell his father who is in leadership position in the church. Okay. Now, so even as we've gone through this conversation, you do see that part of what Christopher has understood is true. Now, something that I want to specify here is, you know, when the councillor may be talking, there may be a certain understanding that you have, that, you know, this kind that Christopher has written, is that, yes, maybe this is the issue. However, as a councillor, you've got to be careful to probably not jump the gun or jump the line way ahead of the councillor having understood the problem in itself. Okay. So maybe initially, when they're talking, you immediately have figured, okay, this is what this could be, that could be it. But what you're attempting to do, how it becomes a personal problem is when you help the councillor themselves to draw it out, to help them draw that out through your conversation, rather than maybe, you know, bringing out something way beforehand, till even maybe before the councillor is ready for an understanding such as that. Like, for example, you know, as Samuel bought this out, Samuel was very clear. I think he had a lot of clarity about what the issue was. But I think as he spoke, we figured out a lot more of clarity. There may be, there are times that councillors don't have clarity at all. But to bring them to that place of clarity may require that you go with them at their pace, rather than having it, having bought it out for them way before that they have reached that pace. So that, you know, you don't run ahead of them, so that you walk alongside with them in their understanding as well. So that's a great, you know, that's a great skill if you're able to pick up what could be an issue. But to also remember to take it at the pace of the councillor so that you can actually help through that. Okay, so anything else, anything, any observation and any question quickly before we move ahead quickly for the last two? Okay, all right. So so let's move on from where we stopped into next. So I'm hoping that, you know, even with Samuel's example, we can take on the next two stages. I don't know if we'll have time to role play that because that takes, you know, that's probably going to take much longer time. But let's let's focus on at least understanding how it can be done, maybe through the through us discussing in itself, we can we can actually figure that out. Okay, so we've come to the place of where we've explored, we've understood, we're going back to Dennis's story, so that, you know, we have some kind of a cadence in the way that we are going to go for go ahead. So remember, with Dennis, what we had, what we came to is one, we did find out what he was going through, what he was feeling. So we spoke about aggression, we spoke about anger, we spoke about disappointment, we spoke about how the feelings, the wrong kind of feelings, sorry, the wrong beliefs or the wrong thoughts that has come about. And we identified some of that is where he feels that, you know, alcohol will help him get over this disappointment, or the wrong belief that, you know, this is one way in which he can get back to his father, that his or probably the belief that his father does not love him and doesn't care for what his desires or his wishes are. And we see that those kind of beliefs can deal can lead to a wrong strategy. And that strategy being, you know, I will show my father of how miserable I am or I will ensure that, you know, I kind of bring about some kind of a ruin to my life so that, so that, you know, my father doesn't get what he wants. So you see that the wrong belief often leads to a wrong strategy. Okay. And what we looked in here is, is bringing personalizing the problem. So where he said that, you know, his disappointment is what is leading him into alcohol. Okay. And it is up to him to deal with that disappointment, or it is up to him to deal with that the beliefs. Okay. So we've come to a place where he's personalized the problem. Okay. And so from there, we are looking at a new goal. The new goal is to look at how he realizes that alcohol is not the solution towards his anger or his disappointment, but looking at how he can deal with it. So that's the new goal that we've come about. So the second stage of understanding that is self understanding focuses on goal setting. What we are looking at here is how do we bring out, how do we set certain goals. So the first thing that you would do in this stage is to help the council change those beliefs into thoughts that are in line with the truth. So we've identified those those beliefs like, you know, in Samuel's case, we said, he wants to change the belief was or, you know, that his dad has certain belief, he has a certain belief. Okay. So the final, you know, line that we did come up with or the final understanding that we came up with is that he wants to bring about a change in the way he discusses this with his father, not in a place where he's disrespectful, yet be in a place of bringing about critical change to the system of the church. Now that's something that he wanted to achieve, or he'd like to achieve. So that's that becomes Samuel's new goal. Okay. Or for Dennis, the goal here is to change those problem causing beliefs, which was that alcohol could take away the pain, okay, into something that is that is that is truth, which is that he needs to face up with that disappointment. It is to change those beliefs that alcohol will take away the pain, change that belief into something else that is the truth, or another example is following a dream alone will not make me feel fulfilled, significant and worthwhile. So to under to help change that belief, or to bring about another, another change of belief that you know, maybe parents have good intentions for my father does not have a good intention for me. It's probably to change that belief, or to change the belief that, you know, my father hates me and does not want me to have the desires that that I want. So some of those beliefs are things that you would confront and you would help to change. So it really depends on what belief the client brings the counseling brings about. Okay, so what I've stated here is many beliefs that that may require a change. So those are the beliefs that we help to focus on, and we help to bring about as to what are some of those beliefs that the counseling can change or can bring about the change. Now, how do you change those wrong beliefs? You remember, we spoke about that in our previous class of counseling, a model of counseling, the ABCDE model. So you take that certain belief that the the counseling brings about and changing. So to remember that just changing the beliefs can be extremely powerful and can can bring about a huge difference in in your process in in your in your counseling process as well as in the life of the of the individual themselves. So for example, for Dennis here, this belief that alcohol will get over my pain or my disappointment in itself is a belief that seems to be etched in. Okay, so he identifies you help him to identify that belief, okay, that basic wrong belief of the of of what he's thinking of. And you come to a place of working with him to dispute that belief, because beneath every problem or all pro beneath all problem causing beliefs, there is a something that needs to be exposed to something that needs to be disputed. Okay, so now I'm making a hypothetical guess here, this may not be Samuel's case, but I'm just making a hypothetical guess, like probably the belief, some of the beliefs that Samuel could be holding or his father, yeah, we had Samuel's case. So Samuel could be holding is that I, you know, I, I should probably get my father to be in line with my understanding, probably that now again, this is a hypothetical one. Okay, maybe there's a belief that I should get my father to believe the way that I see church or the way that I see, you know, church should come about. Okay, so that could be a belief that he's probably holding on to that's not working in favor of, of him and his relationship with his father. So if he were to identify that belief, maybe you dispute help to dispute that. And probably the way that you dispute is to, to again to explore to see is how much would you be able to change the belief of your father, how much would you be able to, you know, reinvent what your father believes in. Okay, and what would it mean to accept the belief that your father has? Okay, so that again, that's where you come to a place of disputing that belief, because what you're doing is encouraging them to dispute something that is creating attention or an issue between him and his father. This is specifically with the second part which he said, you know, being critical of, of what his father believes in, and that as a result could probably come about as being critical of him as a person or being disrespectful of him as a person. Okay, so again, this is just hypothetical. I'm just, I've just made that up. It's probably not in Samuel's case, but just bringing it up so that, you know, you have an understanding of how that some of these wrong beliefs or, or erroneous beliefs or beliefs that you hold on to can, can often set the pattern in your own behavior. Okay, the next would be to replace it with a, with a true belief or that which is in harmony with God's word. And we see that here in, in Dennis's case is you are changing your, you're going to dispute the belief. So maybe certain questions of, you know, you've probably chosen alcohol to get over your pain and disappointment. Do you think that really builds such an outcome? Do you think that really is helping you to do that? So then you are helping him recreate that, disputing that and getting him to find, replace it with a new belief either with God's word or either with, with something that he begins to understand. So through your further exploration here, you're not, you may not be the one who's giving the advice. You can give a suggestion saying that, you know, that some of these beliefs can be turned around or can be replaced by, by God's word. Like, for example, let's suppose if he's a believer, you would say, you would, you would bring about God's word and says, you know, what does, how does, how does God bring about promises in his word of how one can deal with their disappointment or, or regrets? Okay. Or what are some other ways that you could look at how you could deal with your disappointment? So he may come in about as, you know, if I, if I were to maybe talk to, talk to somebody a little bit more about what I'm disappointed that maybe I will come to accept some of these things. Or maybe if I do focus on, you know, doing something a lot more healthier, it may help me to, to calm down my disappointment. Or if I can come about to think about that, you know, just being a rock star is, is the biggest goal of my life to understand that that may not, that that's not what defines me. That's not what defines who I am, but there is something else that defines me. So helping the individual to come out with, with a alternate and healthier and a, and a truer belief is what you are attempting to do within, within this, this pattern of goal setting. Okay. Now, once you're able to get there, remember that, that the counseling, when, when they begin to move away from that negative belief into looking at a more positive belief, it can bring about emotions. It can bring about a sense of, you know, further anger, like, you know, why should I do that? Why should I be the one who's changing my beliefs? Why can't the other person do it? So there can be difficult emotions that may arise as they are going through this process of, of dealing with, with, with the new set of beliefs with coming, coming to an understanding of a new belief, like for example, again, this is again hypothetical with what I'm, what I'm saying about in Samuel is maybe he, you know, the belief that, you know, how can I be less critical to my father? All right. Now, that, that again is like a pull for him is saying that, okay, what can I do to stay critical to the system, but stay loving to my father? Okay. And maybe that creates a sense of, you know, why, why should I, why, why, why should I be in a place that I compromise on something? I compromise on coming to church all because, you know, it helps my father feel, you know, less critical. Maybe it's something like that. So there again, there are certain emotions that, that do come up. And that's what you would help to help to deal with. Sorry. I think there are some questions or where I'm not able to see my, okay, I think they're just observations. Sorry. Yeah. So, so that's, that's what, you know, if, if Samuel's going through that understanding that, okay, maybe I need to work on how I can be more respectful, maybe through my words, through my behavior, I, I express criticality to my father, how is it that I can change that belief and work on something else can create a certain sense of maybe, you know, a feeling of, of loss for oneself or feeling that, you know, I may have to keep giving in. But it is the truth that when, whenever there, there is a change of a certain pattern of beliefs to something that is new. We may think that is very releasing. But sometimes it may not be it because you are dealing with those emotions of the self and saying, you know, why should I be the one who changes a thought process in order to, you know, to make someone else feel better or to make my situation better. So, but what you're doing is you're helping them handle those emotions of what can come about now and what can come about in the future as you're doing it. So you help them face it. You help them label the emotion that they're going through. Like for example, what would it mean to you, Dennis, when, when you begin to change this belief that your father is concerned about your future, right? So he may come up saying that, you know, I just, I just feel still very angry of having to let go of those beliefs because that's, and that's when he begins to say that that's what he's been holding on to. But helping them face it, you know, once they begin to face it, they begin to see what's going on inside of them. And they, and they are able to process those, those emotions. So when they begin to identify that, you know, it's those negative emotions that keep them trapped, they begin to work on them. And also to help them to discover how did these negative emotions come about? What are those emotions that's, that's, that's being raised up, because those negative emotions will take you back to your wrong goal, right? Which is in Dennis's case is alcohol. The more negative emotions that's coming up, the more it's getting you back to your wrong goal. So you're, you're helping them to come face to face with that, helping them to choose to express a negative feeling in a way, you know, so that they're able to process it. So they, they express those negative feelings. So what you're helping, what you're helping Dennis do is to process this, the negative emotions that they come through, they're helping to process what is, you know, what, what has been the roots of those, those negative feelings and coming to a place of dealing with that. And one way of doing that is to express it, express these emotions in a way so that they can come to a place of settling. Okay. So as you work through that, then you move on to the, to the next place of helping them make changes in that new understanding. Like, for example, in Dennis's case, there is, there is a new understanding of how, you know, how he needs to deal with that anger and that resentment towards his father. Okay. That he may be realizing that his addiction is causing him more harm, or he may, you know, come to a place of, of understanding that, that, that even, even this wrong thought of, or the wrong belief that the more that I get into alcohol, the more that I am showing vengeance on my father. So all of this, what you're doing is you're emphasizing the importance of change. And you're doing it in those different five areas that we spoke about. Okay. So you're, you're not just helping them change the belief, not just helping them work through those negative emotions they're going through, but you're making the, the change of these beliefs reflect in their new understanding and in how, in all of these five areas, in the physical area, in the volitional relational emotional as well as the spiritual area. So in the physical area, you're coming to a place of encouraging him to, to use the body carefully to recognize that the body is being affected. And so, you know, for a believer, what you're helping them do is to, you're changing the system of belief that the body is, you know, is that is off, is a temple of the Holy Spirit. And, and what you're doing through that counseling is to ensure that they understand that belief in such a way that you reflect change in that. Okay. So when they understand that they're holding a wrong belief that, you know, it's okay to do anything with my body, it's my body, even that, that understanding of just changing it to, to know that, you know, this body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, that in itself brings about a change in the way that they deal with their body. Or let's say in the emotional part of it, where you're helping the, the, the, you know, Dennis here to get in touch with his feelings that may be so deeply ingrained will help him. So the more that he's in touch with it, the more that he labels it for the more that he understands that, yes, I have feelings of anger towards my dad, I have feelings of, you know, vengeance towards him, the more that he understands it, the more that he's able to work through it. So look back at, you know, what Samuel said, I think he put it up on the chart here is that moment of where he understood that how am I, what can I do to change my critical spirit, just knowing or just identifying that there is that spirit within me in itself bought about a reason to say, okay, I need to change the way that I feel about this or the way that I interact with my, with my father in the way that these emotions keep coming up. So just coming to that place of getting in touch with the feelings helps them to commit to and a place of change. Then is the rational being, we spoke about changing beliefs, okay, how that just renewing your mind of the beliefs that you have in itself brings about brings about a change. So for Dennis, just this feeling that alcohol, you know, helps me deal with my disappointment, just understanding that, you know, that that is not true, that cannot be true. It has to, there has to be something more or identifying that it is God's word that brings about a change in the disappointment, or maybe, you know, engaging in, in, in other areas where you can work through the disappointment or talking to somebody about it, talking to a counselor about it, can help to work through that disappointment is the rational part of it. The volitional part of it is where you're helping the counselor see that they have the power to choose. And no matter what the feelings are that's influencing them, they have the power to change what they want. So like for Samuel, it's probably just to understand that he has the choice of the next time he is an interaction with his father, how is he going to say something? What is he going to say? How is he going to express it? Maybe asking himself, does this sound critical? Is this something that is timely to really bring about to my father? So that is the choice that, that you help to bring about that change. And lastly, of course, the spiritual part of it, where you are getting them to a place of understanding that, or to an, to an awareness that, that there are these three things that are affected, either your security, your self-worth, or your significance, right? And to help them believe that the more that you, you find security, significance, and value in Christ, the importance of how you base your life on something else diminishes. So that importance of the change in thinking is based on that foundation that, you know, my inner security, no matter what I receive, or what I achieve, or where I am, my inner security or my significance comes from, from God himself. So, so you come to a place of helping the, the councillor make commitment in these five areas. Now remember, like in Samuel's case, there was, there wasn't a commitment for the physical. There's nothing there, right? I mean, in his case, there's no, no change area in the physical. There's, there's no relevance there over here. Okay. There's, there is a change, maybe in the emotional part of it, the way that he feels about it, there is a change in the way in the rational part of it, there may be change in the way of the volitional part of it. Here again, there isn't any, any, any specifically with spiritual here, right? But what you would focus on maybe in Samuel's case is more emotional, rational and volitional. Okay. So remember that it's not that all five areas probably requires an area of change. And if that really matters on how much you've assessed and seen, what is it that's causing that deep sense of distress or deep sense of a problem that, that that is going through. But here in Dennis's case, all five areas of functioning is what will definitely require that change. Okay. Now, after your goal setting, so you, you kind of figured out what are steps that you would need to look at. Now comes to the place of action where you are initiating action or here is where the actual, you know, the, the rubber meets the road. This is the place where you're actually going to start reaching more actionable, tangible, tangible items to act on. So now for Dennis's case, you've identified maybe physically, probably he needs to get rid of his alcohol. Okay. Emotionally that there needs to be, you know, the disappointment and that anger needs to be dealt with rationally is changing those set of beliefs that he may have, which could be, you know, my father doesn't care for me or, you know, only if I reach a rock band will I reach a place of fulfillment. Okay. Volitionally is helping him make those right choices. And spiritually, of course, it is to rack him back into what his true place of identity is that a career doesn't, doesn't dictate his identity or the way that the father sees him doesn't dictate his identity is probably the broad goals that you would have come up with. Okay. Now when you identify a goal, what, what are you, the next step is to move them and find out the steps to reach that goal. And I know a lot of you, you know, would have come through these smart goals. Okay. They are more, you use them a lot even in management, where you specify the goals. So like for example, in, in, in Dennis's case, when you are specifying goals for his physical self is to, to come, maybe physical self is to completely get rid of alcohol. Maybe he says, okay, I want to get rid of alcohol. So that's his specific goal is not to drink. Okay. So you've specified it that I want to stop drinking, not reduce drinking. Maybe that's not his goal. Okay. But to stop drinking measurable. It should be a goal that is measurable. It's something that you should be able to see if there has been a progress. It should be achievable. Okay. It's not something that you do that, that, that seems very unrealistic. Okay. Or unachievable. So achievable and realistic, you know, need to come together. That's something that you can hold tangibly to and something that is time-bound. Now, now these can be even looked at at, let's say, even the emotional area of functioning, where there are certain specific goals that, you know, I want to work on the disappointment and the anger that I'm feeling. Okay. Measurable. How does it become measurable is by the end of this week, the way that I interact with my father will help me see if that disappointment and anger has come down. Okay. And one measurable, measurable goal is, you know, I would like to come back and speak to the counselor regularly so that I am able to deal with that. Okay. Deal with the emotions that I'm going through. What is achievable is maybe he would say in order to maybe by the end of two weeks, I show some kind of a progress in the way that I feel and as well as the way that I may be doing my work, maybe going just back to college because when I'm disappointed is when I go and drink. But if I have someone to talk to this with somebody, I feel in a better state of mind and I feel a little bit more motivated to go back to college. So, you know, these, these are again, very, very interlinked. Okay. But that's how you would work through these goals. Are they realistic? Is this something that is achievable? Are you getting him to, you know, get rid of his disappointment and anger within two days? That may not be realistic because this has been maybe a problem over the last three, four years. And we need to be realistic in the way that we work through it. And of course, it has to be time bound. So you're giving, you're working out a specific time as to how you would want him to get rid of his alcohol. How is it that, you know, what are the some of the things that he can work through? Now, this is just an example of some of the steps that, that this person took. Okay. So in his drinking, he decided that he will go for a rehabilitation program. Okay, that's, that's the step he took in physically dealing with him. Okay. So he, so the question was, would he join an alcohol anonymous group? Or will he join like a Bible study group? Now, that, that was something that, that was, that was in discussion. So a rehabilitation program is a step that he took that, that this is something that I will do. The next step was, how am I going to handle the stress? The stress over here could be the pressure at, pressure at school or pressure from the, from the principal. What were some ways that he would like to handle that stress. So some of the issues over, I mean, some of the ways thought about the steps that were thought about is, you know, go talking to the principal and, and because this is a real case, I'm telling you what actually happened. Go talking to the principal about an apology letter and, you know, asking his, his help to, to give him another chance to work through a semester. Another way to handle stress is to, you know, is to, while he's in college to meet with, with a mentor there, so that, you know, that at any point of time, there are other factors that happen in college that is someone he can connect to. Okay. So that was, that was the second goal that was there. Then the next goal was hobbies. What else could he do in order to engage himself? So either joining a sports club in college or starting maybe, you know, a music class. These, these were, again, other steps that he decided. The fourth one was how does he spend the weekends? How, what, what would he do to keep himself away from the, the temptation to go back into drinking. So, you know, to identify a friend group that didn't drink or to identify a system or a network system that was more helpful for him. So that, this was something that we attempted to try with regard to more tangible goals. The next one was to be able to changing the thought process. Okay. To change the thought process is to one, to write down the negative thought process. So we got Dennis to write down what his negative belief systems was and how he could replace that. So that becomes an active process that again becomes another action point that, you know, your thought process is something that requires to be changed just like how other physical aspects need to be changed. So they're writing down the thought process and replacing it with, with the truth or in a believer's case with the, with God's word that is the truth being made in order for change to be sustainable. It needs to have a reinforcement. There needs to be certain rewards. Now in Dennis's case, you know, we looked at how there could be support people for him. Like if he was abstinent for two weeks, what is the kind of support that he could get to, to help him rally through that difficult, through that difficult point of time. Okay. There was an accountability partner that, that he was engaged with. This was mainly in college where he was engaged with like, like a counselor there who was, who was helping him to go through week after week. So the reinforcement was every, you know, every two weeks that, that he would go without alcohol, there would be some kind of a reinforcement that's given the, you know, giving maybe within his class really, looking at his progress and helping him feel better about himself, you know. So, so what, what the counselor did there was got him attached to a college group and helped the college group to, to encourage him to, you know, to, to get him to join in their group and, you know, have an outing with him. So that was, that was what was, was a reinforcement that was there. And of course, to be able to review that periodically and give any kind of a reward that may be, that be there. So this was one of the, one of the steps. They found an accountability partner of the counselor and, and so it is a friend. So it was a counselor there that, that helped him through that. And it is to stay clean. If he stayed clean for two weeks, then they, then the reinforcement was to go out for a movie with his friends. And this was again, like I said, you know, instituted by the counselor, along with that group of friends to help him in that journey. Okay. The, the next thing you do is, yes, you implement these steps. So these, the first part of it is more formulating it, saying that, okay, if this is what happens, this, if you do these things, this is what will go by. So then you implement it and you help with every kind in every step that he needs to go, it help him with those resources that he may require. Okay. And so here, the first step for Dennis was to go back and to read about the support group and decide which one to join. So there was a time bound to that. When are you going to do it? How is it that he's going to do it? Who are the friends that's going to be there? So this is just the example of how Dennis took on initiating that action for himself. So you involve the counselor in a way that helps him to work through that action point or through that intervention. So once all the steps are implemented, you get back on a feedback. Okay. And figuring out how the entire action part has worked with all the goals that, that the counselor set with the counselor, with all the steps that they went in, how is it going? So there is a general loop that takes place. Every time there's a new goal that is placed, every time there's a new action point that's placed, there needs to be a feedback where there is one recognition for what he's done well and also or confrontation in case he slips back. Suppose, you know, he was doing well for two weeks, the third week he slipped, he went back into drinking, maybe that's that's the place that you confront and figure out what bought him back, what was the trigger point into going back into alcohol again, maybe it was, you know, I just felt disappointed once again. So you may have to rework that goal once more, go back to that emotional place and help him work through that. So I think one thing that I want to mention here is when a counselor slips, that has nothing to do with your efficiency or, you know, the process of counseling. Counseling is all about trial, I mean, sorry, recovery in counseling also is about trial and error. There are times that they are going to fall back, okay, but that doesn't, that doesn't at all express that the counseling relationship has failed. It's a process, we fail, we succeed, we fail, we succeed. But the idea is to stand alongside with the counseling till a point of time that they feel confident to work on their own or let's say in this place, maybe he went through a negative spiral of thinking, okay, so you go back, have a, you know, have a caring confrontation and bring them back in track to the goal that that you have initially instituted. So here again, the example is, why was there a slip-up? Why was there a relapse? So you're trying to find out what went wrong, okay, and how you can avoid those slip-ups. Maybe there was an argument that happened at home and that was the reason for a slip-up, okay, and so you look back at how is it that those things can be prevented, or you look back of whether, you know, in this case, whether the sports or the hobbies didn't work out, maybe he refused to go for those hobbies or for those extracurricular activities that kept him back at home. And you're kind of actually working out to see how that can further, you know, what went wrong that that that didn't help in that system that he was going through. So you find that out, what have been some of those issues in all of those areas, what have been some of those issues. And then finally, when there is a momentum that has reached is when you will come into a termination. So here again, who decides to terminate? So generally, you know, it is a counselor who decides to terminate when they feel ready, or if the counselor does see that the engagement is being too dependent, or that it is coming to a place of redundancy, that's when a counselor can can initiate a conversation about about termination. And of course, what does the counselor do is you express that you are ready at any point of time that them that they may need a follow up or any kind of a future future session that may that may come by. Okay. So so in short, this is how a process of counseling does happen. Okay, we move from one step into the other. Now, like I said, you know, it's very hard to role play all of these stages in one. And a lot of times it's very organically done. However, if you have a broad understanding that, you know, once you've explored it, you come to a goal that you would want to fit in, which is where we stopped with Samuel. And then starting on some of that goal, you know, how can we work through that goal? What are some of the things that you can intervene some of the action points that you can work on, so that, you know, you're, you're helping the person come back to a place of better functioning in those five areas. Okay, that's the goal that should be the final goal to restore them back to the image. Remember, we spoke about the image, and this image is in these five areas. So as we said, it really depends on who the person is, the counselor is, when they are believers. Yes, the spiritual part of it gets, you know, is something that we work with. But when they are unbelievers, it gets very difficult to work on that. But nevertheless, we bring them to a place of understanding that there are spiritual issues that could, that's leading the problems into an emotional or a behavioral concern. Okay. All right, we have, we have one minute left, but I'm open for any kind of questions. Is there, yeah, and anyone, anyone's question? Sorry, I think there are some questions here. Samuel, you've asked a question, I'm just going to look through that. In Samuel's case, wouldn't church attendance be a physical aspect? No. What is the physical aspect is all what that has to do with the body. So that's the physical aspect. Church going at church attendance has a lot to do with no church attendance doesn't have to do with the physical aspect. Church attendance has a lot to do with what you're going through emotionally, you know, your interaction with what you are feeling as you are sitting in that church. So it has to do with your, your dealing with your own emotions as you are there, a sense of, you know, maybe a sense of dissonance, a sense of disinterest, a sense of anger, all of that is coming from your emotional sense. So that's the aspect that we may need to deal with. I hope that's clear, Samuel. And you've written, and also being a part of a church is essential for spiritual growth. So that, so would that be the spiritual aspect too? Because one concern that Samuel's father may have is that his son is not attending church will hamper his spiritual health. That's his father's concern. Is that Samuel's concern? Does Samuel feel that or think that going to church is what makes him identify his relationship with God? Or is it something else? So it may be Samuel's father's concern, but not really Samuel's concern. At least that's the way that that was assessed. That going to church does not make you feel as if you have a relationship with God. That you, the concern here for Samuel is what he's seeing in church is something that doesn't sit well right with his understanding or the way that church should be being played out. However, his father sees it like that. But we are dealing with Samuel as the councillor here, not his father. I hope that clarifies that. Yes, yes it does. So any questions here? I don't know if you all just feel this is like, you know, there's too much of information. Everything is out there. I do have a question. Around goals, around goals. If I can say that I don't feel like this, especially to deal, like I can see the value of smart goals and how in a corporate setting work related and even for something more tangible, like I want to score good grades or I want to lose some weight, you know, how smart goals are a really good tool. But for counselling, for a person struggling with spiritual bondages, spiritual freedom, or even, yeah, and there could be some outputs, like, you know, something like a person stops drinking. So those would be, I think, very evident as change begins to happen. But like in the session itself, putting, like, so we identify Dennis as an angry person who is addicted to alcohol. And, you know, the goal is to change and restore Dennis back to the image that God created him to be. So if that's the eventual, that's the big goal. Right away, putting it in the smart category, you know, making realistic, measurable, specific goals. So that part is a little disconnected for me because I'm not just looking at solving his addiction. Yeah, yeah. So if I'm limiting to just solving his addiction, maybe, you know, it makes sense to make it smart goals. But if I'm looking, and that's what I think I'm being trained as a counsellor, which is not just to quick fix a problem, but to, you know, eventually, you know, bring about a bigger change or reconciliation with the creator. So for that, somehow putting it as measurable, specific, realistic goals is that that's a little bit of disconnect that I'm having. Okay. So let's look in Dennis's case. Let's just look at two aspects of it. One is where we are looking at his addiction. And second is, let's say, we're looking at his thoughts. Okay. Now, how we identified that there are certain specific thoughts that that is not helpful. So you've identified that this is a thought that isn't helpful. So that becomes a very specific goal. Okay. Now, how does it become measurable? Remember, you're not, I mean, you're not writing this down. But then I think it's in your conversation with the client, with the counsellor, you are bringing this up and say, okay, how can you identify that, you know, that when you work on this thought or when you change this thought, what will you see as an outcome or as a result? So that's what you're helping the counsellor to understand that the more that I work on this thought, I will see this kind of a result. Okay. So measurable may be something like he may say, the more that I, you know, probably focus on God's word, I will begin to maybe every morning that I get up, I'm not getting up with this feeling of a disappointment. So that kind of becomes like a measurable. I know it doesn't seem as if you can touch or feel. But what you're doing is helping the counsellor see by working on this, what are you expecting to see? Okay, or attainable or let's say realistic. So what would you like to do to ensure that you work on this every day so that it becomes that you have an outcome to it. So like realistic is maybe, you know, you bring up someone who's having a negative thought and saying, okay, every morning that I that I get up, I am going to, you know, put this verse over there and I'm going to read it to three times before I go. Right, because that I know will begin to work within my spirit. And I will begin to see an outcome for it. Okay, like a time bound, what do we mean by time bound is, is this something you would like to do every day? Is this something that you're going to do once in a week? Is this something that you're going to do twice in a week? Why this smart goals become useful? I know it doesn't look tangible, but it becomes useful is because you are building a plan with the counseling, because without a plan, if you're not going to be helping the counseling have a plan, they are going to very well not do it. Like, you know, so if if you're going to say, okay, I need to renew my mind. But the work of the counseling is to help and say, okay, you're going to renew your mind. Great. How are we going to do it? What are you going to do? What are you going to do? When are you going to do it? What is the outcome that you will see after you do it? And that becomes your smart goals, where you're actually teasing out a certain discipline in as best tangible form as possible. So that becomes important because if you leave the counseling saying, okay, this is a belief you have, it's a wrong belief, and you got to work on this belief, that's it. It just becomes like an intellectual understanding, it doesn't become personal, it doesn't get integrated into your system. And that's why the umbrella of smart goals helps, because you actually help to work out maybe a discipline or a system in doing that. Okay, when I mean by time, it's not that okay, by the time it's two weeks, you have your sense of security and love. That's not what I meant, or what I mean. What it means is, how often are you going to do it? What is the discipline that you're going to take to do it? What are some of the scripture that you will do? So that becomes more of your smart goals. Was that clear, Samuel? Yes, yes. I think, yeah, for me, the confusion was putting a deadline. So that, now that you say like, there's no deadline to it. But it's the frequency that we're talking about. I think that makes more sense. Right. Okay. Great. Okay, thank you all so much. I know it's been a long two hours. Can I please request somebody to close in a word of prayer? Anybody, anybody quickly please jump in and close with a word of prayer. I'll pray. Let's pray. Yes, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Father, we thank you for this morning. And we pray Jesus that what we've learned will stick in our heart, Lord, and we, even in our everyday conversation, as we talk with people, as we meet people, our families, our friends, let these skills, Lord, be put into practical and let us learn more and more. Be with us until we meet again next week. In Jesus' morning and we pray. Amen. Amen. Thank you so much, Mangi. Thank you all. God bless you. We'll meet again next week. God bless. Bye-bye. Thank you, Pastor. Bye.