 personality. There is only one person in the whole world just like you. And as Mr. Rogers would say, we like you for being you. I'm Amy Schaefer. I'm here with Tom and Cory. Cory, what in the world are we talking about today? Oh, listen, I'm excited. Coming up on Hope Today, we're going to delve into a deep discussion with a certified Enneagram coach, Jesse U-Banks, who is a major in making a major impact in teaching people how to peel back the layers of your full self and encounter Jesus. This is going to be a very, very powerful segment. We're going to talk about personality types. We're going to talk about Jesus. We're going to talk about how it all relates to you. And I'm excited to really, to really get delving into this as we delve into ourselves. Yeah, I like it. I like it because, you know, it helps. I've taken something like this before and I enjoyed taking the little, little test they have because it helps me to understand who I am. You know, that I don't have to be this other person. Like, oh, I admire that person. So maybe the Lord wants me to be like that person. Well, that's okay, except that we're supposed to be who we are. Right. Yeah. And it's good. And then you know how to relate to other people and you know how they're wired and what's their makeup and how should I talk to them? I was just going through some old papers, some parenting papers. And I was looking at the different personality types and how, and I could just see each of my three children differently in the personality types and then how to address them, how to correct them, what they need from you. So I think it's going to be really valuable today, Cory, to dive in to some of these and hopefully we'll have some aha moments. Yes. Yes. You know, I was thinking about something really deep is that who do we want to be and who do we feel we have the right to be in front of people in this society, especially like in a society of comparison, where that is such a stronghold to compare, compare, compare. Am I enough? Am I saying enough? Am I? So I think getting into this and understanding that psychology of it is really going to be something that's going to just help liberate people. Yeah, that's what you could be chill. You know, just be yourself. You know, it's like, hey, I hope they like me. If they don't, I'm sorry. Let's just be ourselves. So right now we're going to do something that's going to embarrass all of us. It's called stump the hosts. Well, this is the first time Cory's done this. So we're going to have to see how this goes. All right. Should we just leave? We should leave him out on the island or something to help him or anything. As you know, we play this game a few times a week and we just ask questions from the Bible. The producers have picked them. We have not seen them. So please play along. So which book of the Bible was written on an island? Revelation. I start, I start thinking about Paul, right? On the island, right? John. I think you're right. I think it's the Isle of Patmos. John, we're going to go. Are you going to give me the thumbs up on that? Yeah. What do you think? I think I'll say John Bible. It's not the characters, the book. Revelation. Yeah. I agree. Revelation. Wow. I'm not a real confetti. That was good. You got the next question. Okay. All right. All right. Here we go. Which names were Daniel and his three friends given in Babylon? Okay. I got that one. Shadrach. And Abednego. And Daniel. What name was he given? They were called something. I think the question, were they called? Yeah. Well, they were named. It was not their original names, but Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego were the names given. Oh, you want the, you want the name, their names. Belta Shazzar. That was Daniel's. Yes. Yes. Yes. Are you, are you, are we close? Is that good? Give us the confetti, please. Okay. We had Shadrach and Shadrach. Great confetti down. This is the most. We're awesome. We don't even know it. We don't even know when we get it right. Okay. The enthusiast would know that. All right. Here is the last one. Approximately how tall was Goliath? Is he bigger in shack? Eight foot. Seven foot. Nine feet. Nine feet. I think you're right, Corey. I think I, I think it was. Let's go with Corey. I think it was nine. No, Corey. Okay. Okay. We're going to go left. All right. This is all right. This is the way to go. All right. We're awesome. The enthusiast in me is freaking out right now. That's great. Awesome. Awesome. All right. Listen, here on hope today, we have the immense opportunity to hear from Jesse Eubanks, who is the author of the book, How We Relate, where he uses his extensive knowledge of the Enneagram to lead you to the heart of Jesus to find wholeness. He's also the host of the Enneacast podcast and has been named by relevant as one of the top 50 Christian artists and activists making an impact on culture in America. Jesse, welcome to Hope Today. We're so happy to have you. Well, I'm glad to be here. I got to tell you my segment feels like the easy one. What you all just did was petrifying. Well, listen, listen, listen. Your book is amazing. This topic is amazing. And we want to get right into it. Can you start us off with just, just answering the question, what is the Enneagram for our viewers that may not know exactly what the Enneagram is? Yeah, okay. So Jesus, you know, has this desire for his people to be one. But as all of us know, we often are either causing relational conflict or we're being wounded by relational conflict. And the Enneagram is a tool to help people in their relationships. It is a theory of personality that says that essentially there are nine different key elements to personality. One of those aspects becomes most important to each of us. That becomes known as our core type. And it explains why we do the things we do. So as to where a lot of other Enneagrams, a lot of other personality profiles are dealing with the evidence of your personality. So Myers-Briggs is, oh, you show up in this way. The Enneagram is actually also talking about motives. Why do you do the things that you do? So it's not a, it's not a Christian theory, but it is something that Christians can use with wisdom. And in my book, I've attempted to merge that very deeply into solid Christian theology. What can we learn about God, about ourselves, if we have more self-awareness? So we've seen what happens in the church when people don't have self-awareness. The consequences are pretty steep and severe. And so this book is at the end of the day. This book exists to help everyone build better relationships. Wow. That is incredible. Like, I like how you were talking about how there is the Enneagram, and then you have that bridge. This is a mechanism and bridge to connect people to Jesus as well. So in regard to like leadership in the church, how do you feel understanding your personality type really effectively helps you how to manage and lead people? How do you feel that this comes into play with leadership opportunities in ministry? Well, I'll tell you this. Anybody that has been a part of a church or part of the church community for a decade or two has seen on repeat what happens when church leadership does not have self-awareness and becomes content with relational dysfunction. We hurt a lot of people in the process. We've seen what happens when people either become too passive or they become too power hungry or they become too worried about their own image. And all of a sudden, the truth and the beauty of the gospel ends up taking a backseat to people's personalities. And so you end up with scenarios where you've got thousands of people that have been deeply wounded by church leadership because church leadership has no self-awareness. Self-awareness is absolutely essential for us to understand, you know, how we relate to God and other people. You know, Amy, you said earlier, you were talking about you approach each of your kids differently because of each of their personalities. And in that same way, we have to realize God approaches each of us according to our personality as well. He knows what we need, but so often when we don't understand the things that motivate us, drive us, compel us to act the way we do, we don't know how other people are experiencing us and we hurt a lot of people in the process. You know, Jesse, growing up and having some strong leaders in my life that were good and godly people, and I wanted to emulate them, and I mentioned this earlier in the open. And then I realized I wasn't really them. I was somebody else, somebody else that God had made that way. Is this where the Enneagram can really help us to know who we are and to kind of move in the God given personality that God has granted us? I think it's a both and. You know, I remember years ago, somebody telling me, God can use who you are. He cannot use who you are not. And so often we attempt to be somebody that we are not because we feel like that's the Christian sort of thing to do. And so I think on the one hand, the Enneagram can be utilized to help us begin to make peace with who we are and own our gifts and lean into those gifts as well as our weaknesses. We got to take ownership of those too. But I also think the Enneagram becomes an invitation for us also to see what are the ways in which Jesus has invited me into abundant life, and I'm literally turning a blind eye because I'm just unaware. So I have a question, Jesse, that I believe you're going to hit at this. I think you're going to like this. What happens when a person has been being a certain kind of personality for whatever they're doing, whether they're leading in church or their family or at the job. And that's not who they are. They read your book. They realize I've been totally living a false life. And but everybody's dependent on that version of themselves that they've been selling people. Then they try to change it. How can you give words of encouragement and wisdom to people that are saying, Hey, I'm getting ready to stop being that version and shift. How does that affect their friendships? How does that affect their marriage? How does that affect their church? Can you give some advice on that? Yeah, I mean, well, buckle up. I mean, the reality is, is like, you know, when we attempt to change as people and we have, you know, the friends and the community around us have sort of been groomed to expect certain things from us, certain ways that we respond. The reality is that it is, it's confusing and disorienting for all of them. But here's the other thing that people that really love you, I mean, the folks that really love you, they're your inner circle. These are the people that are going to be with you through thick and thin. They're going to want you to become a healthier person. They're going to want you to grow into who God has made you to be. They're going to want you to have less chains holding you back. So yes, we need to anticipate that just like Jesus, Jesus disappointed the crowds on a regular basis because he wasn't willing to do the dog and pony show to impress everybody. And I think in that exact same way, when we lean into who God made us to be, we have to understand we are going to disappoint people. But the purpose of life is not for us to please everybody. The purpose of life is for us to love God and love other people as we love ourselves. The purpose of life is relationships. And so we want to have healthy relationships, not destructive relationships. So anticipate it's going to be bumpy, but you can do it, especially I mean, folks that have struggled with boundaries throughout life and all of a sudden you're putting up boundaries that confuses people. But the ones that really love you, they're going to stick it out because they're going to know they're going to be able to see, man, you've you've got something going on in your life that's good and life giving and the Holy Spirit's doing great things. And I want that for you. And the folks that are mad that you've changed, they may not have been in your corner after all. Jesse, to my core, I just want to have fun and I want to have peace. But with the call that's on my life, as a, you know, a co pastor, I've had to step into a role where I have to confront. I'm forced to lead. I want to lead. And it's there. But can your personality adjust over the decades to the, to the season and the call that's on your life? Absolutely. I mean, if you think about even, think about it like this, like when you go home for Christmas gatherings and you're with your family, certain aspects of who you are probably come out and then you're in church and another aspect, then you're with your spouse and another aspect, people draw out certain aspects of who we are. And for sure, if you're in leadership, whether you're in leadership in a company and an apartment and a church, you know, at a television station, whatever it is, we can anticipate it's going to bring conflict. And there's a sense in which we feel like we got to, we got to put our dukes up. We got to kind of be ready for some challenges. And so we can definitely get to places where we get locked in. And, and that becomes a moment that we can invite the Lord into God. Do I feel like I've always got to fight? I've always got to defend myself. I've always got to be ready for the next person who's going to try to throw something at me. Lord, what does it look like to trust you in this and to step up at the moments that are necessary, but to not let it begin to cloud my vision for what it means to trust you moment by moment? Yeah, that, that is good. And certainly having those, those kind of challenges, but I'm ready to be the guinea pig here. Okay. I want to, I want to, so I went and I took your, one Enneagram test, the 10 minute one here and it came up with me as the, the supportive advisor type two with a real strong entertaining optimist. I'm entertaining optimist here to type seven. So what's that do for me as a leader here, as a minister of the gospel? What, what are these types helped me to do? Yeah. And so, you know, with the Enneagram, the reality is this, is that if we approach it with wisdom, we're going to find out a lot of things that are beautiful about ourselves and the ways in which God is present in these really amazing gifts are present. And there's some other stuff that, you know, it's going to be a little bit painful for us to hear. And so, you know, for us to, you know, so for, for time for you to come into leadership and to go, okay, I've got a lot of two and I got a lot of seven. The two commonly known as the helper, these folks are really supportive. They love to serve other people. I say that they like, they wear scrubs all the time under their clothes. Like they just, they're servants. They just love to care for folks. The flip side of that is that they can struggle with boundaries at times and there's times where they give too much of themselves away to the point that when you ask them, Hey, what do you want in life needs feel selfish? And so they feel like I shouldn't have needs. I shouldn't want anything. All I should do is just lay myself down for others. And what happens over time is that they become angry because they feel like everyone's always just taking from them. So they're they're deadly sin that they struggle with this pride, which is they overestimate their capacities. And their invitation of discipleship is to step into humility, which is to have a realistic view of their capacities and what they do bring to the table and then offer those things generously, but to not offer more than they can actually give. God made us to have needs. What does it look like to have needs? We got to bring those to God and other people. Wow, you are you are really hitting right here. I hope you know there are some really deep things that you're hitting. So okay, so I'm going to take it back just a little bit. So you talked about people pleasing. Now I myself was in ministry for 19 years at one point and I was a kid in ministry and I in order for the church to maintain, I felt like I needed to make sure people were confronted, but not offended, which I fell into a people pleasing thing for the longest and also dealing with the fear of rejection. When approaching this, how do people be their authentic self knowing that when they start putting those boundaries up that you were talking about, they may be rejected from people that they love. And now they're like, well, I didn't want you to leave because I'm finally being authentic. What does that do for them when they're like, hey, you know, saying, no, this person left me, I'm finally being honest. How do they handle that? How do you handle that? Maybe when you started to do that, maybe experience rejection in your own life. Yeah. So I do, I think there's a point now where you get to the stage in life where you're just tired. You're just kind of tired of just making everybody else happy all the time. And you're like, I just can't do this anymore. You know, I'm just getting too old to be, you know, making everybody pleased with me all the time. And I think there's a real gift from God that comes out of that because then at that moment we begin to go, hold on. Well, why do I feel like I got to make everybody else happy? Do I also think I got to make God happy or he's going to leave me? Do I think that I've got to approach his throne where I've got to go, God, I just want to do whatever you want. And I don't, I don't need anything. And I don't want anything. And I just don't want to upset you in any way. There's, there's an invitation from the Lord for us to show up and be authentic. And that requires, you know, wrestling with some things, you know, Corey, I know you have not figured out your type. And but one of the things that strikes me, you know, and what you just said is there's a type it's called type nine. And those are known as the peacemaker. Peacemakers are amazing because when you come into their presence, man, you just feel like you could just confess anything to them, tell them anything. And they'll just, they'll love you. They'll accept you. They're not very judgmental. They're really patient. The flip side, though, is that they can get to a place where they become allergic to conflict. And so something goes down and, and they feel so unsettled. And the thing they feel threatened by is this conflict is going to ruin my relationship. And then I'm going to be left alone. So they get driven by a fear of disconnect. So the journey for them is to go from a place of, we say that their deadly sin is, is sloth, but not in like, not necessarily like they just lay on the sofa and watch, you know, TV all day, but they fall asleep to themselves. They fall asleep to what God is doing inside of them and what the Lord's calling out in them. And then, so their, their virtue of discipleship is, is exertion, dedicating themselves to the things that matter, intending to those things faithfully. And that wakes them up and then they can begin to follow the Lord. Does any of that resonate with you? Wow. Absolutely. That is, that is so relevant. I'm sitting here like this, that's amazing. I'm going to still continue this journey as well far after this show, but thank you. That, that really, really hits because that was always something was, oh, people are going to leave me. They're going to leave me. You know, they're not going to accept me because, you know, I just want to make them happy. And that has been a fear that has plagued my life, which was like, what do I do with that loneliness when people leave? But getting also to that point of saying, you know what, I don't care. I don't care as I draw closer to God. So wow, this is, this is amazing. I'm excited. So Jesse, for somebody that has just heard this word for the first time, Enneagram, and they're thinking, is that for Venus or Mars? Like where, where do they start? What's the first step do they take and what, how can you resource them? Yeah. So there's, there's a lot of ways that people approach the Enneagram and some of them I would not endorse. Some people approach the Enneagram and it's not from a Christian perspective. And so the great place to start, you can start with my book. My book is called How We Relate, Understanding God, Yourself, and Others Through the Enneagram. And then you can, you can also check out our podcast. It's called the Enneacast. And we're going to explore the Enneagram from a very gospel perspective. You listen to the first 10 episodes by the, by the end, you're definitely going to know what's your core type, how do you relate to other people and how is it shaping your life? Wow. Well, thank you, Jesse. Listen, it has been an honor to have you today. Thank you so much for just sharing about your book and this experience. It has been a great time having you here today on the show. Thank you. Hey, my pleasure. Thank you all. Absolutely. Hey, listen, when we come back, we're going to dive deep into the important, an important scripture that Jesus taught about how we should love God and our neighbor. Stay tuned with us when we come back. When Laura called our 24 seven prayer line, she had so much fear that she didn't want to leave her house. She had lost her husband of 54 years, just six months earlier. Laura was flipping through TV stations when she came across cornerstone television. She felt compelled to call. One of our prayer partners talked, listened, and prayed with her for 45 minutes. At the end, Laura said how much the ministry had helped relieve her fear. Praise God for how he's using CTVN. When you give, you become part of what he's doing. This month, when you give, we'll send wild expectations as our way of saying thank you. This book will inspire you to live your life as God intended to give and request your coffee. Visit us online at ctvn.org slash donate or call us at 888-665-4483. Hope happens here. Thanks for staying with us as we unpack your brilliant makeup and personality. We do have a big huge confetti meeting aha moment and that is our very own Tom Hollis has a book out on Amazon. It dropped yesterday. We are so thrilled for you, proud of you. Tell us about your journey a hundred days with Jesus. Well, thank you, Amy. Yes, as some of you may know, we wrote this a little while back and we offered it as a premium for some of our donors, but I've been battling to get it on Amazon. It was done in a format that didn't translate to Amazon real well. I really want to thank Mary Ann Skiba who works here for helping me get it into the format it needed to be and to get it on Amazon. It's kind of great to have it there. Okay, when it went live on Amazon, what did you do? I immediately texted Gene and it was like, it's live on Amazon. I texted all my kids, it's live and they're all like, Yay, congratulations and we're excited about that. And now we need them to go and review your book and give it five stars and get all of the benefits. Well, since it's been since it's been out to our donors previously, some people have even commented on on Facebook, Hey, I love the book, you know, you know, yeah, so good. Thank you. Oh, thank you. Appreciate that. Well, we have a scripture for you today. It's from Mark chapter 12 verses 30 and 31. It says this and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength. The second is this, you shall love your neighbor as yourself. There is no other commandment greater than these. Corey, how's that hit you? You know, it's funny that you say that the other day I was thinking about the heart and said, you know, your whole heart, right? And I actually started thinking about the heart broken up into different districts, like the city of Pittsburgh. It's this, you have Duquesne and McKeesport and there's parts that our heart has been surrendered to God, but there's other parts that are still at war. And those are areas like, Hey, God, you know, you're in my finances, but you're not in my relationships or Hey, God, you know, you're in my ministry, but, but you're not in unforgiveness that I have towards my parents and loving God with your whole heart and giving them your strength in your mind. That is a process of sanctification. It doesn't just happen. A lot of times people give their life to the Lord and they get saved and say, God, I give you my life, but the process of transferring all of that to God, it's like moving out of a house that you've lived in for 20 years. You know, you don't know how dug in you are until you start moving every piece out. So it's a process and I just really believe that, that as you're surrendering your whole heart to God, be patient and give yourself grace to know God day by day, I'm giving you more of me, more of me, more of me, even if it's 1% a day. I'm still in the journey of evacuating my heart from my former mindset and giving over to that new mindset of Christ that, that the word says that we need. Cory, what about loving your neighbor as yourself? Okay. So let's just take the enneagram. So I'm an eight and, you know, lean toward a seven and let's say you're a nine and you're a two. Well, you know, can eights love twos? Can a seven appreciated nine? Can a one service five? I mean, like we really have to think about this. God was so unique and creating each of us so different, so special. Why are differently? So how can we love somebody else if we don't like who we are? I think we should just start right here at home. Tom, do I love myself so that I, do I love who God made me so that I can love others? And one of the things I love, though, is that the character of God, it modifies all these things into our life. So if you're, if you're a real hard charger, a driver type person, well, the character of God will, will soften the parts of that. And if you're one that hangs back, God's going to bring you forward. Not going to make us all homogenous here, but he's going to make us so that we can relate to people all in the body and outside the body. I think there's all of this noise out there in the world telling you who you are, who you should be, who you should not be. And I think we need to get to the bottom line. And that is this, that I am his beloved daughter, and he is well pleased with me. Maybe you should say that today. I'm his beloved son, and he is well pleased with me. We like you. We like who God made you. And there is hope for you today. On tomorrow's Hope Today, embrace the beautiful person God made you to be. Authors Tanya Radd and Raquel Stevens encourage you to leave stress and anxiety behind, conquer your struggles and discover a life filled with peace and joy. That's tomorrow on Hope Today. Cornerstone Television wishes to thank all our faithful viewers, whose consistent prayers and financial support have made this program possible.