 Hello and welcome to the drum history podcast. I'm your host Bart van der Zee and today I'm joined by Dr. John Owens who is here to talk about the history of street drumming John. Welcome to the podcast Hey, thanks for having me glad to be here. Yeah Really really excited about this one because you sent a book over called street drumming the people history and grooves and I've really been enjoying it. It is It just is a really nice book that has tons of great information in it and I was mentioning to you before we started it's It's very like digestible and real and usable not that other books aren't but it's almost like a Like a pocket guide like a handbook on how to get into it and the history and really usable tips For street drumming. So I really appreciate you sending this awesome book over Yeah, absolutely Yeah, so all right, well, we'll get into the book and on all this good stuff But why don't we start off with the history of? Street drumming and then later on we'll hear more about your experiences with it because you've done some cool stuff yourself But where does street drumming begin? Yeah, well that that's that is the question, right? So thinking about street drumming, I guess historically or its roots and origins You have to have a street For there to be street drumming. So I think you know The starting place is probably about 5,000 years ago It could be a little bit before that but Persian bazaars are probably some of the oldest street markets in the world And that's probably like the oldest Space where drumming starts to occur. We see street drumming also in Egyptian societies Eventually kind of moving forward into the Middle Ages There's an instrument called or a kind of duo where drummers slash Pipe players would play something called the pipe and table or the table or is this basically a single you might have heard of before Yeah, yeah, yeah So there's like one like they hold one They basically have a drum on the side and they play like a tin whistle the other and they're drumming around but these these musicians You know whether they're menacingers or troubadours or minstrels depending on what you know country you're in They would kind of go around and jam and they would do this in different parts in different cities From there we go into Kind of a jump the Renaissance Those would be the same musicians kind of in the Renaissance later on we get into Straight drumming kind of in like New Orleans In fact, some of the oldest street drumming in New Orleans occurred in a place called Congo Square which was a Gathering place for enslaved people or on Sundays they could get together and kind of jam and drum And so they would use these West African traditions and homemade instruments And they just start kind of you know playing and grooving and this of course stems into You know eventually being a precursor to jazz and blues and some other Styles and then from there you end up in New Orleans also, which is really New Orleans is such an epicenter. There's so much even today if you go to New Orleans It is not hard to find a street drummer Just walk down any street and you you know you see him Yeah, so the that street drumming tradition then morphs into these things called spasm bands Where there's these kids that like kind of they would sell newspapers and they were kind of on the streets And they were orphans and they would go out and they would they would drum They'd also play like kind of homemade like bass fiddles and bucket instruments and all sorts of stuff But there was always drummers with them and from there Rondon also had a bunch of traditions Where there was especially in the 1800s There were musicians that were playing on the streets for like dance shows and like little puppet shows In the book I actually there's I talk about punch and judy, which is actually a medieval show But in 1800s there was an account of it and and there was an interview in this book by a guy named Nehu Where he he actually talks to the drummers To one of the drummers and he was like the side man But he would sit there and drum while the show was going on and there's a great kind of etching Of him just kind of like you know on this old school rope tension drum Oh that reminds me I skipped one and that is colonial drumming, which is a big part of that and Beyond just rudimental drumming styles There were colonial drummers that were hired as street drummers Before like a town might like have a bell They would have a drummer roam the streets and play like little rhythms and grooves to be like it's time for church It's time to go. Yeah Is that kind of the um like like the tattoo? Sort of uh with with that that history with like the the washington tattoo and all that stuff where they would I know that was uh with mark riley with which there was an episode he talked about that stuff about They would use it to tell people like all right time to leave the bar time to go home And stuff like that. That's exactly it. Yep. That's exactly the tradition. Yeah, it's Raleigh's actually reference in my book So he yeah, yeah, so that right there is a great a great example that There's um, you know, they would go around and basically telling people there's a Instance I have in my book about a guy named Jeremiah. How that actually might be though I don't remember who should I refer to from but He that was his gig like he was hired to basically be a street drummer Rome the streets and he would and that we have um, there's evidence of his contracts and stuff Related to that, which is which is pretty cool. That is cool. And there's like Utilitarians, I mean it wouldn't count as street drumming at all But I've heard and seen the pictures of like when fire stations used to use a drum to like Let people know there's a there's a fire or there's something going on with that As like an emergency warning. So I mean that definitely has more of like a utilitarian need as opposed to performing to make extra like to make money which I mean you you you talked about going back wait five thousand years ago And I mean, I guess it's a simple quote. It's it's the answer is obviously yes But people would be performing as a job to make money from the beginning, right? Yeah, well, I think when you see the Persian bazaar probably I would that one's a hard one because There's basically the evidence shows that there were social elements and there was music that existed And thinking about the instruments that existed they would have been things like Like the daft or the tar which are these kind of simple frame drums but Like the the details we don't know. We don't know what they did how they played. Were they, you know, were they asking for tips? And even in the middle ages a lot of the references actually kind of There's one actually Francis Darwin the son of Charles Darwin He wrote about street drummers. He kind of did like an investigation at the middle ages And he said that they were basically street urchins and vagabonds and like he kind of ripped on them a little bit And looked them as kind of degenerates, you know drums have a way of they're so loud and I could see people being annoyed by street drummers, which I'm sure we'll talk about later with getting kicked out of places But drummers have been annoying people since for thousands of years I guess is the takeaway which you know, we love it, but um, that's that's so interesting that it goes I mean drums We all know it as drummers, but it it's like the oldest instrument in the world So of course people have been doing this stuff for a very very long time Yeah, and I mean, of course I I skip like that, you know, the the alligator drum and the cave paintings, you know Because those were used communally, but those didn't really have streets, right involved And I think for it to be considered straight drummer drumming there has to be urban space Yeah, and even uh when you get into more modern times I mean It seems like there's there's a difference and you talk about it in your book about like bucket drumming and like bucket boys versus like A guy who sets up a full drum set, which people do as well or a little like kind of like trap kit So that seems like there's a lot of uh vernacular Differences that you can, you know, you can split out into but um, but that's that's getting further ahead, but um Okay, so colonial and then we were into the the uh, New Orleans, which is kind of obviously an epicenter of everything Which you you have great photos in your book, um, which obviously people know this by now, but I'll Put the put the link to the book in the description so they can check it out and your website and all that stuff There's a lot of effort in those photos and there's a couple iconic ones You know kind of moving into the next generation of drummers There's a guy named gene palma Who's almost like, you know, one of the kind of godfathers of what we think of this modern street drumming And gene palma, there's a great picture of him by Cameron block Who was like there back in like the like late 70s 80s? It's iconic, but anyways with him he's He started drumming basically after this That was from 1934 to the 1960s Street performing was banned in new york city Um leguardia. That's funny now that I hear when I hear that name. I'm like, oh leguardia airport But he actually purposefully banned musicians from playing on the streets From that from that lock from that period of time And so then there was this thing called the beatnik riots and where basically street performers eventually started being able to come out again And gene palma was like the first like solo drummer And what what he would do is he would go out and he would he would basically he was kind of like a reenactor of um gene krupa and he And he would play like verbatim like, you know, he played like sing sing sing And he'd also do some like a little buddy rich licks and some other things But he had this like greasy jet black hair that he would mat down And he was really dynamic character I love like there's a short of him on the film taxi Uh, and then there's some there's some documentaries of him and stuff. He's pretty easy to find um, but he is Super important in the new york city Um street drumming scene. Yeah in uh in taxi driver when you see him I mean, he is like a caricature of just I don't even know what I mean It's the the hair and gene group is syncopated style and he's playing and it's it's um It's a great movie. I mean, that's obviously not one to watch with your kids or something But uh, but it's a great movie and it really I mean he is uh important and uh, I'm glad that it's documented In a movie like in like a major major movie like that. Um, which is really cool I didn't know that it was it was uh, it was banned street drumming I wonder if it was because it's just like like you said where it's like street urchins like get off You know, you're you're bothering people. It's which we don't see it that way but uh Officials might you know Well, so in new york city, it wasn't specific to drummers The band was for all musicians. I see and like and peddlers and street performers So they have like this fairly strict law for a really long time Did you think about the 30s, right? You're getting into You know, there's there's a it's a pretty interesting time, right? There's a lot of control elements progressivism and so on and so forth happening around those time However, there were places that very specifically banned drums Very clearly, um, there's there's a place uh, rome georgia in 1909 they had a Ordinance that very specifically targeted drummers It was like if you're playing anything percussion related if you hit it or whatever It's against the law And I do talk about that and the reason it's I actually call that chapter one drums Because there is this direct targeting and the issue is not so much that maybe a one single town does it though That's a bummer for that drummer that you know was probably the reason it got started But it sets a precedent and so then we see right after that kind of first instance of this drum band It then perpetuates and other cities start copying and copycatting And so then we see this kind of drummers are no longer allowed Which is a bummer the the timeline there of you're saying like 1930s ish uh, it's Let's say it's bad timing because everyone kind of knows 1927 ish is when the The silent movie that whole industry of drummers working in theaters and having this big booming You know 10,000 drummers per city or whatever. I forget there's some some number like that uh So they lost that job Then there's it's basically made illegal in a lot of places for street performers to perform on the street To make a living so it almost seems like a you know Well, you can't get a job in a theater playing with a movie because that's over and now you can't go out on the street and perform So it seems like it was pretty hard times to make it as a drummer Yeah, oh, yeah, I'm sure I mean and and drummers of art We're always you know one of the things I one of the things I bring out in this book And of course myself being a street drummer in washington, d.c Um along with you know, some of my other things but the I think the thing that's really interesting is that Street drumming really allows drummers to be the solo instrument You know where we're in most cases We're kind of back up right and we're yeah, we're we're sitting there making sure the groove is laid down You know so the the guitar and bass licks come out and the voice comes out really prominently But in straight drumming it's an opportunity To be like check this out. Here's this cool groove um And I also emphasize that in the book I talk about the grooves that are very popular Like dance rhythms and little shuffles and like all these different grooves And it's interesting that they're always really what's most popular in a particular region Like europe has certain rhythms that are more popular than the united states Yeah, I think you said that like in london you'll hear more of like the edm kind of like dance beats because that kind of music I mean it's popular everywhere, but but especially in europe that stuff is very popular. Um Which so let's say nowadays you typically see these kind of uh drummers with buckets or whatever around like sporting events Uh around basically where people are so it's almost like you need a street And then you need like a bunch of people to listen Has that always been I mean obviously it seems like going back as far as you know the the persian bazaars They would try and be in the epicenter of Uh Where the events are. Yeah, it's it's always a gathering place Right, so I mean we think of street drumming in Kind of this sense of like oh somebody's sitting on a corner on a street and there's pedestrians But one of the rules that's almost universal Uh in most cities for sure in england are like london For sure in washington dc even Is that as you're drumming on the street you can't block traffic And you can't block that pedestrian flow and I know in your I live I had the opportunity to live in europe for a few years and in germany there are these areas called flusca gonzones Which are like pedestrian walk zones and those places would be a normal gathering place because there's no There's not any car traffic. There's spots where people could kind of come up like to the side I remember seeing street drummers and like schtick dart or something like that and one of the people in my book that I interview carl He's from new zealand And he ends up, you know, he plays in oakland, right? He you know, he plays in that really busy pedestrian zone, right? And he's the only guy who's like doing those street grooves at least on buckets And so he kind of moves into a little corner and then people gather around but that flurry of traffic cannot be impeded That's one of those, you know important laws Yeah, what about um, all right, so in new york, I mean it was banned which which I think Or street performers I should say but now when you go to new york or if you're in the subway You see like the people have literally like badges where they are they have permits to do this When did the permits come into play and um is that Pretty much because I know here in Cincinnati. I don't think people have permits to perform on the street But it's obviously not as big of a uh, you know City as new york How did was that when it did come back with gene palma and stuff? Did people have to get permits to perform back even back then? Not initially. No, so there's so permits are So we're talking about though. I got it's a lot of the legal stuff. Sure. Um, but the the permits are varied So they depend on cities and sometimes even within a city. There's a certain region One of the best examples of this is los vegas So in los vegas one of the hottest spots to play as a street musician Is fremont street? I don't know if you've been there, but it's like it's the old part of los vegas And it's kind of covered in these lights. It's used in a lot of old movies, you know Like frank sanatra or like the oceans 11 movies where there's you know, there's just there's it's just really cool It's like really bright, but they had They were overrun by these street musicians and so in order to do something about it. They implemented a They implemented like a permit system And so for the most part I kind of get into this argument of is permits good or bad? um, and there are It's it's kind of a two-bed sword, right? It does allow Some organization it allows it where it spreads musicians out So that you know the sound of this drummer doesn't bleed into say, you know This show over here of acrobats or you know, somebody playing violin there's a Fun video that I mentioned of gordo the drummer who's probably he's probably the highest like viewed drummer on youtube right now street drummer And there's a video where he's sitting there playing And this violinist just in the middle of his set sets like right in front of them Cranks the amp and just starts going like and he and it's crazy because you wouldn't think a drummer could get drowned out But you can't hear him anymore Are like not playing together like it was I'm gonna be louder than you because like almost like competing for a spot Basically, like I'm taking over. Yes. And who knows like it could have been a I don't remember all the details of it Because he doesn't even mention that and like kind of the after discussion um, but this idea that You know it more than likely just knowing kind of the way it goes Maybe he was in that spot for too long based on the regulations of the city Maybe or maybe that was the normal spot of that violinist Or that person just was a you know a butt and decided to go in I had to I cleaned that up a little bit You know, maybe he just came in and just started like yes, whatever man Wow, um, I want to make money and he eventually has to give in and leave and it was crazy Yeah, man interesting. It's a weird I mean, it's it's competitive. I mean you're because you're dealing with uh Like real estate basic or locations where you're you this is a high You know, you want to be on the busiest street that you can where you're out of the way, but you're playing um, which kind of seems like we're Historically speaking on the timeline getting into more of that the bucket drumming and stuff, which I think nowadays is what people really Uh, it's what they equate it to as opposed to like, you know colonial drumming or Tambor or flute or whatever. So When did that become what we we know today? Okay, so that's all right So I there's a couple people I probably should talk about first. So yeah So gene palma played on like a like he didn't he basically had a like initially had a snare drum A floor tom and like a cymbal, right and he would stand and play And then eventually he moved There's images of him and interviews with him eventually moving to just a snare drum on a stand and a cymbal And then there's even one time where he just has a snare drum on a satchel Eventually he actually loses his drums and he just starts playing on metal and playing on The newspaper stands and he would just drum on him and there was an interview where he said like Yeah, I basically lost my drums and now I'm just jamming on these but he was still making money Doing it on kind of these obscure just things on the city streets Now I want to move to another location, which is Texas and there's a guy named bongo joe Coleman who is From like actually started playing in the late 50s 1960s and they weren't as restrictive in texas and bongo joe basically took 50 gallon oil drums And you know and we I think we usually associate those with Like like soka right with yeah like a steel drum kind of yeah steel drums, right? Exactly, but he didn't use them in that capacity. He used them like as basically a makeshift drum set He he's like I don't have money for a drum kit. So I'm going to grab these big old oil drums He fashioned his own mallets his own sticks because like because obviously regular drumsticks on a Oil drum is pretty flipping loud. Yeah. Um, yeah That gets insane. We used when I used to drum at Nottsbury farm and we had a part where we would do like these like we had all these 50 gallon drums And it was just they didn't even mic us for that part because it was just So freaking loud Anyway, so they so he fashioned these things and what he would do is he would play these really cool polyrhythmic grooves usually like West african caribbean Style grooves and then he would sing over the top of them In fact, I would say he would sing he talked to the audience. He'd bark He'd whistle He'd put all these cool antics and he's also a great example of like house street performers Like interact with the crowd, you know, like he was like a master of being like, hey, you know And he like oh like a little kid with a dog and he would interact with them in a very natural way and he played at the new ellen's jazz heritage festivals and uh, you know back back in the 60s 70s He was recorded by our holy records. Um, he even was on he's also considered like in the history of Texas music to be an iconic figure, you know, somebody that doing this research and I was like, oh my gosh This guy's really cool. Um and fast and really fascinating character. Yeah, I mean as you said, it's it's a performer. It's almost like Uh, half the job is to entertain and to keep people going and uh, I mean you can't take for granted too that you're not doing a three minute song And then you're done. I mean you're doing this for hours and hours typically. I'm assuming right? I mean, I've usually only seen a street drummer perform for like 10 minutes and then I walk on But they're going and going for a while, right? Yeah, so when I would go out through the streets in dco I lived there at the time. Um, we would typically go out for a minimum of four hours and we would play um Constantly there's a guy in the book. His name is chris harris. Uh, he plays, uh, he's actually the like official Bucket drummer for the Tampa Bay Rays Um, and he's also billed as having the fastest one sink one handed roll, right? And I don't think he's been like tested on the dramometer or whatever You know, but it's it's pretty impressive, right? Yeah, and he's got that, you know that technique that rim, uh, You know the that I can't do it. Yeah. Yeah Right, and he's kind of mastered that technique. Yeah, but anyways, he um, he talks about spending all day Playing, you know, he'll do a set in the middle of the day in a busy place Change location and he's playing eight 12 hours and he's also not only that but he's it's intense, right? It's it's not like You know, you play a a couple minutes song and you're like, oh cool, you know Oh, we played our 45 minute set. Let's go get some sodas and you know drinks and then come back and do another set It's you know, every second you're not playing you're losing money And so, you know, I think street drummers have a lot of calluses. They have a lot of chops Um, and chris harris also mentioned Uh, he was inspired by some of those bucket drummers you were talking about from the 90s that we'll talk about in a second Um, but how they were just Shear power, you know, and and he marched drum and bugle core um, and he was like, you know division one core and he's like, um He's like these guys he's like, I don't I have no chops like he's like compared to these people We're playing for hours at a time single strokes, you know, just like, you know, just going He's like drum court didn't even give me those chops, you know, they gave me chops, but not in that way Yeah, oh man. Wow I'm and Do you think a lot of these drummers are I mean, you can't know this for everyone but are in your experience with like, um I mean, you have background with the the army band you have you've played with disney You've done a lot of stuff, but the average street drummer playing outside of a stadium Are they typically like self-taught as far as you're aware or are these guys going even going back, you know into the 60s 70s 80s Or is it more of like you're taught by another street drummer or is that kind of thing even even known really? Yeah, that's a really great question. So I think when you see a street musician um Even today that you don't know their background, uh, because a lot of them have a lot of chops Um, um, elite dope who was recently on america scott talent He was a go-go drummer in washington dc Uh, but he also learned in school band So he has that rudimental street drum nutrition and when you watch him play he's doing like, you know He's doing high bombs and back sticking and he's playing like cheeses and inverts and you know He's doing all the cool stuff that you know, we're like, whoo, you know, we're getting all nerdy as drummers But at the same time it's very visual and it's you know And it's it's kind of it's entertaining for the the lay person as well So he's got that kind of mixed bag Chris harris mentioned that too that it was a combination of his drum core experience with the street drumming experience However, if you go to a place like new orleans, I think it's a little bit more raw You know when you watch the you know, if you're in new orleans today, there's lots of kids on the streets Playing like just these bucket grooves and they play almost all single strokes Usually there's a little bit of swing in the groove You know very, you know, kind of funk shuffly kind of You know that kind of like really cool just tasty groove But they're playing it with a lot of a lot of power right and a lot of Intensity and as I watch their hands because I've I spent a couple weeks in new orleans just watching street drummers And as I was watching their hands, they're you know, they're they don't have you know palms down You know perfect grip maximizing, you know, they're not keeping their stick lower to the ground, you know, it's very loose But it's a lot of it's coming from the elbow You know, you're like what? But they're they're powerful drummers and you're someone who's you know taught that kind of you know Indoor percussion like I see that and I'm you know, I'm like, oh, it's not you know How we teach it but there's something vibrant about it and I guess fresh about the way they approach it Yeah, yeah, that's that's interesting and the fact that you mentioned kids as well because I think kids You know that also helps to sell things for people and to Get them to like give the you money because the goal whole goal is to get a tip For your plane, you know, so I'm sure kids do pretty well Yeah, kids are really well actually so my son would drum with me and when I was in washington dc I've done solo drumming as well. Um, but when he was old enough, I took him out and He's you know, he's not he's you know, it was like shoulder height And there was a couple times where I would step away and I'm like, hey, I'm gonna go You know get some sodas or whatever and he's like, oh, just keep drumming dad And I'm like, oh yeah, cool And then he come I come back and he made more money and there was a little bit of time We had like the last 15 minutes Because you know, he's he's a cute little kid just sitting there drumming and he's got pretty good chops Yeah, the the kid the cute factor goes a long way for sure. Oh, that's funny. Um, all right, so we're I think we're getting to the point here with the buckets. So, um, which is a good There's there's a good chunk of the book here talking about um bucket drumming, which I think It looks like it really kind of came into, uh, you know popularity in the 90s. Is that correct? Yeah, so the 90s becomes Especially yeah from a popular lens. There's two key players I think that could be considered like the founding fathers if you will love Of bucket drumming. So one is a guy named Larry Wright Um, and he's out of new york city and he was featured in the 90s like crazy Like he's on Levi's commercials. He has like this meetup with max roach. Um, he's kind of Yeah, yeah, and and there he even got the he was awarded the Buddy rich memorial scholarship Which his performance on that is Epic like it's it's awesome. He just he just rips through all the he kind of took like almost like everything he does And just put it into this one concise Performance that's really cool. Um and and Larry Wright still plays today Um and you can see him and you know subways in new york on the streets in new york But basically he was you know, he kind of grew up in um rough circumstances and he ended up going and and Kind of trying to figure out ways to make money And uh, there was one day where he just you know, grabbed some old buckets, you know Because he got some kind of drum chops from school bams, right? We talked about where Drummer street drummers get their chops and it's kind of Varied but he kind of like got some chops from learning music in school and then went out and started drumming and he went into um a main area And made like 300 bucks Like just playing on some flipped over buckets And you know, and then he just kind of took off people took notice of him He came very popular very fast um and He became like I said like kind of the founder Are one of the founders of this style The other person that is you is really important to know is a guy name um John Bryant who is the um He's actually the founder of the bucket boys Which are out of chicago the chicago bucket boys today the chicago bucket boys. They play for the chicago bowls You can see them pretty much at any bowls game um, and they're they're a mainstay, but the thing that's interesting about His legacy and there was a couple other drummers John uh, john bryant there was a guy named michael long who kind of Kind of doubled up with him And some to sean louis and some other drummers, but they kind of they started drumming and playing. I'm like, hey, I'd like to Um, he basically took like a mock bucket flipped it over started playing earned a little bit of money and then he got with other drummers and kind of unified or Created a uniform approach And the thing why I find that so fascinating is I used to live not too far from chicago And I would go see the bucket boys all the time Especially outside of the art institute of chicago. Um, we're on the city streets, but there were Always different groups, but they would play the same rhythms and grooves And that was really cool. And so what he would do or what they would do I should say what bucket boys do is they have kind of this set set of grooves that they play in uniform and unison and then They're improvising so you'll hear like this kind of like this Got And they were kind of doing it with like some flashy stick tricks and twirls that are uniform Then all of a sudden there'll be a stop and then one of the drummers will take a little solo And then they'll play the groove and then another drum will take a solo So they kind of created almost like a call-and-response type system that is pretty standardized And today you can see bucket drummers like I said Everywhere yeah off of freeway entrances in downtown Next to Wrigley field. They're all over Yeah, and I mean like you're absolutely right everywhere. I've gone that has some sort of a You know if you see a stadium or something. There's usually a Bucket drummer playing next to him and I mean I'm sure that it varies in city to city and drummer to drummer, but I've always wondered and You know, you never really want to ask about money with stuff, but I mean can a bucket drummer make this a full-time job and do pretty well and Support themselves. I mean I feel like the answer is probably yes, but like I mean You know it takes a lot of work, but how do they how do they usually end up, you know doing at the end of the day? Yeah, so this is a very interesting topic. So Larry Wright like I said still plays today And he does it exclusively full-time. In fact, he had offers I've mentioned the Buddy Rich Memorial Scholarship He had offers to go to college and study music and do all these things. He didn't do any of that He's still basically just street drums. He's done commercials. In fact, there's another person I think his brother chocolate Jared who also does he actually did some really cool stuff like he did some WWE commercials Which I I think is maybe one of the Apexes of bucket drumming because he creates this composition that features like he creates his just beautiful tension with his grooves And then it culminates to this climax in the in the commercial It's it's really cool But anyways, but he you know, there's some featured moments where they're kind of paid to come in and do something You know very commercial, but Larry Wright who now plays on the streets with his wife is Just playing because that's what he loves to do and he makes a good amount of money doing it There's a video with oh Shoot Cornelio, who's another street drummer in New York City? And he's like I make easily $400 in the day Drumming on now, you know without with you know, not even breaking a sweat and his his setup is actually like a just a little top section of a free-floating snare and then a In a sound system and he just come out He just comes out and plays on top of that to like hip hop curves and stuff man 400 bucks a day is not bad if you're doing it every day and you have a pretty It's not like you're putting that much money back into I mean if you have to buy a new bucket or something which actually kind of raises the question of When I I did it once with my brother where we you know took some buckets that may have already been I guess you could say compromised where they were just old five gallon You know like a bucket from Lowe's or something and it may have already been a little bit broken But I remember we went downtown and played Kind of buy what's called Fountain Square here, which you know, there's people there There's a street. So that's the place to be But I remember the the bucket as it was flipped over it did crack and it broke On the bottom as I was playing. Yeah, how often does that happen? I mean, how often do people go through buckets? Well, I think that depends a little bit on on the player So like Chris Harris who I said was the kind of the he was down in Florida And played for the Tampa Bay Rays He would actually he brings out a stack of buckets He brings like 12 buckets out and he carries him like and like I think he said like a You know a baby carriage or something and he comes out and you know sets him up and because that's one of the other things It's mobility is very difficult with with street drumming whether you know, there's I love sometimes there's these memes where it'll show like somebody took like a What is it? I've seen like where there's like a bicycle with a drum set inside of it Yeah, or I'm like, oh my gosh. What was I should have thought of that when I was street drumming or I've seen one where there's like a Hand truck or somebody mounted a bass drum and like a little high hat You know they and they're like they just kind of roll it around and they could set it up. I'm like that's genius Yeah, but we're bucket drumming. Yeah, you do break them and You know some of its nuance and the way people play and of course, you know The the bass tone is in the center of the bucket and the edge is like the snare sound Some people will flip a bucket over and put change in it and then they'll hit that and that'll make this You know like this really cool kind of snare sound People play on the side and a lot of drummers use a lot of sometimes junk I know you you know, you told me you had showed me that video from you playing I think it was like your brother or something in yeah, Italy. Yeah, and You know in Domet who's one Italian drummer and a guy named Dario Rossi. Who's another Italian drummer? They use these massive ridiculous Sets they have like 30 to 50 pieces that they lug out onto the streets in like Rome and They drum on them and it's like what it like surrounds you. I mean it's and I feel like a lot of it, too And I'll post that video or a link to it so people can see it's like 12 minutes long which probably you only need to watch about 15 seconds of it to get the the idea because I do not watch the whole thing No, neither did I but it's like almost like It's it's almost like more than what could be played in general So it's like seems like some of this with these setups and you actually in your book have a really cool picture of a drummer I believe in Italy where you're surrounded and you're kind of kneeling Around it and there's almost like More than what could be played so I wonder how much of it is kind of visual like it gives you this big Footprint that just looks really cool. So I'm assuming that's a part of it, but Even there you saw almost this In Europe it's more of like from what I've gathered is like I say junk in a good way, but like really like Everything and I think in your book you said something like, you know, you're European street drumming everything including the kitchen sink Where it's like It's everything Like if you have something your house that makes a sound bring it throw it on the street and play it, you know Yeah, and I think I think street drummers do consciously think about the timbre, you know They're thinking like oh, here's the quality of this sound and I want this, you know This sounds kind of like a sis or this has a sound That I really, you know That I really like or this has a unique sound, you know, it sounds like one of those I don't know there. I think Afro percussion made like this thing. It was a ribbon ribbon slap or something like that You know these different kind of sounds and they try to recreate him But you do bring up a point that the set ups of some of these massive setups there Like you could never play all of it at once. Yeah, it reminds me of like, you know, like Neil Pertz drum set You know like where it was kind of like he almost had four or five drum sets within one drum set Yeah, so he would play zone, you know And I think it was the same thing with these when I as I've watched drummers like Domet and Dario Rossi or they just have so much crap that they almost play in this section And then they'll transition to this section and they'll transition to this section They never play it all at once. Yeah, which Totally nothing wrong with that and that that's actually a good way to put it because also you're you're out there all day so it's kind of fun to like switch up zones and And in my experience with that one event where my brother and I were in Europe and there was a street drummer and we were He was playing and I don't even know how it happened But he had extra sticks for people to go up and join him Is that frowned upon by street drummers for people to be like can I play with you or is that like a Part of it ever for in America. I think when they invite you it's cool So like one of the one of the drummers I mentioned who's a lot who's a current drummer and has been featured in a lot Of different places Matthew pretty. He's known as bucket boy And he's probably the second highest like viewed street drummer currently and He has one of his biggest things is he always incorporates the audience into his music And so he's sitting there, you know kind of hitting stuff and he has like them holds You know buckets and hold pan pans and stuff for them or he'll You know, he'll have them clap rhythms or do different things with them So there's always this interactive element and bongo Joe used to do that too He would have the audience do stuff with him and interact Some too so it I think part that's part of the entertainment factor right be historically and even in modern drummers they're trying to You know, they want to keep people's attention because the longer they stay the more money they'll probably give Yeah, that's an important part of it. Yeah, and Things have changed though and you just kind of said one of the most viewed drummers Which you have a section in your book that's titled YouTube crazy And we've all seen that where like even on Facebook or Instagram or or TikTok or whatever They're all kind of connected where videos sort of like Float between platforms obviously Where you see this these street performers be it a singer guitarist where They're like you can be like a breakout star like I forget her name. There's a girl in England who's got an amazing voice Where or in Ireland I think actually and you see her perform and it's like my god, you're incredible and she is It appears that she's always performing on the street so Maybe go into a little detail about how YouTube really changed the world for street drummers and it I'm just gonna throw it out there that is it or ask the question to along those lines Is it the drummer who is kind of having someone film them and uploading it themselves? Or is this is this also like a natural someone uploads a video on their account of a drummer and Then magic happens maybe without the drummer even knowing it kind of thing. Yeah, that's a really good question So so in 2005 obviously YouTube launches and by within a year the Street drummers are already a pretty mainstay part of it So from its inception we see drummers really kind of take on specifically some of the earliest drum buddies We're actually Larry right and the bucket boys on Chicago those kind of founding groups so But you bring up a really interesting point because there's actually a couple people I mentioned in my in my in my book Who I call them regional drummers are kind of like kind of little almost one-hit wonders There's a guy like in I think it's I think he's Philadelphia and he He's got like one video with millions of views. He didn't record it It was just some random person kind of was like dude check it out And he just does these like frickin awesome beats right where he's you know He's he's like using the side of like an old Drawer in a you know metal drawer in a refrigerator and he's using it like a like a guiro and he's like Playing this really sweet groove, you know, and it's like got like kind of like a hip-hop funky Shuffle II kind of thing and it's just a great video But anyways, what's interesting about it is he's using kind of miscellaneous stuff And it's just a random person Just recording him where some street drummers use more of a They have more of a brand and so they're protecting their brand and they're like hey check out my video Gordo is a great example of this You know, he's getting I guess credit right for his hits And then he collaborates with other influencers and they might take a video of him or something And so and then the personal interview him or whatever So he's kind of created a brand some people don't have that brand some street drummers There's a guy in Washington DC Who's not hard to find if you're in like the the mall area the national national mall He plays basically carries his stuff around in a Shopping cart and I do mention him But he's just got like a bunch of big buckets and some like Pylon, you know street cones, which I don't I'm not sure how he got those But anyways, but he just sets it up and he'll just start drumming He's got no YouTube presence all the videos that exist of him Which are very small are just random people taking them, you know, so it really depends I think on the drummer and what they I guess do with it. Yeah. Yeah, I Mean you it's not it's sort of a sticky situation to where it's like if someone shoots a Video that gets I mean somehow, you know what? It's it's like the stars align and that video then gets 10 million views and Maybe they're set up to be monetized on YouTube, which isn't an automatic thing You kind of have to get to it and then set it up and then you know it's not to say that if someone's getting a bunch of views on a video, they're automatically getting paid but That's money possibly that is not going to that performer But that's also getting into a into a whole legal situation with YouTube in general Which it's just a whole nother thing, but All right, so we're getting here. I think we're kind of getting up to the modern days obviously of street drumming Why don't we talk about? where it stands today how you think the the state of the union is with street drumming and then maybe we can get into Some tips for people who maybe haven't done it who want to do it and just don't know The legality of it or you know some gear recommendations, but but yeah, where is it all as it you know as it stands today? Yeah, so I think that's that's a great question. So there are people there's kind of been a bit of a resurgence Of the art form and some interest in it. I mentioned to just on America's Got Talent Alone You've got Malik Dope who was recently featured And like I think it was like last year and then there was also a few years back a group called recycled percussion And they had done, you know, they kind of incorporated street style drumming along with like kind of heavy metal Vibes with you know power tools and stuff. So we're seeing this, you know And then YouTube also is like as you mentioned really expanded street drumming a lot where You know, I was able to communicate with like like I said, I interviewed a guy from New Zealand I talked to a guy from Canada. I talked to those drummers in Boston And you know I interviewed all these individuals and they are all doing different unique stuff You know, but street drumming is also fun because I think it's authentic. It's raw And you know, like you said if just there's that little clip that video, you know It can become viral fairly quick sure the thing that is hard And this is the thing that I think, you know, you know, there's lots of Organizations, you know, like I talk about fuse drumming is one example In New Zealand where they're playing, you know, they're teaching kids how to basically do urban drumming the urban percussion street drumming and bucket drumming and they teach them stuff like, you know, doom Yeah, do you do got or do you do got goon goon. Do you do got goon, right? But the thing that separates I guess the pros right the people who are on the street making money doing it is From, you know, kind of the novices and intermediates like maybe that are taught in the school Is that skill set right the ability to play A groove and then on top, you know and make it interesting, you know where it's like you got this doom Doom down while that's continuing you guys You know, and you're playing all this stuff So I think modern street drummers, especially have a great deal of Independence in their their capabilities, you know, and sometimes that stuff is insanely impressive because you got guys who are playing kind of like drum set type stuff But you also have people who are playing on a single bucket and it sounds like a drum set And that's That's pretty exciting when they'll start creating and putting different timbers and timbers and they're still like adding more and more Layers to the groove and then all this it's just this crazy polyrhythmic thing and you're just like that was so awesome You know, and I think that's what street drumming is today. It's it's um There's an element of new to it, but also innovation um One person that just popped in my head is this guy named masa the drummer uh from japan and he is uh, he does he plays didgeridoo And straight and it's a custom made like pvc didgeridoo And then he plays like edm style grooves underneath it with like kind of trash percussion Um, and he makes some really really cool music That's awesome. Yeah, it's it's pretty cool what he does Yeah, I mean you can do as much and then that's that's almost like there's like these categories of like just a straight Bucket drummer and then there's someone who's doing like one-man band type stuff Like that where they have more of a tonal instrument on top of it. Um, it's kind of cool. There's no there's no Set rules and also like I mean really the guy who you could just have never played the drums before Get a bucket get some sticks and just go out and start figuring it out and albeit, you know You might really kind of annoy everyone around you because you're not going to be that great upfront But nothing's stopping you from doing that. I mean you might not get many tips or anything But I feel like there's no it's kind of equal opportunity with With just getting a bucket and going out there like you can you can do it I'm sure you'll do better if you are putting in the hours Practicing but um, there's no Whatever you can you get a corner you can go out and do it Yeah, and I like I love that idea So one of my favorite things about being a drummer is our community I love the drum community because I find that You know every place I've played Professionally and you know, I do host some drum circles and other things locally, you know Just to kind of get back to my community But I always find that drummers will want to share Like they just are really cool Like, you know When I was in different bands, you know trumpet players are like, no, dude, that's my lick or Skatari players. I think they get kind of that like, you know, even even Robert Johnson You know from back blues artists. He would play to a wall so people couldn't see his hands You know Eddie Van Halen and stuff. Yeah Yeah But drummers were like, dude, I'll he like, oh, you want to learn how to play that? Let me show you, you know, it's not my lick, you know, I'm gonna teach it to you And I you know and thinking about I like what you said that anybody can do it from a novice to a pro And the thing that I recommend is Especially people maybe getting into it, um, or maybe have a little bit of chops Or maybe you have a lot of chops, but having one or two really good grooves To go out with is probably the best way to start because remember the audience as you noted changes Most people listen to you for about 30 seconds If that, you know, so if you've got two or three really solid grooves And then you can improvise and we didn't even talk about that, you know, that's in the book But improvisation is a huge part of this art form Because that's what you know keeps it interesting for the performer But you know just having a nice solid foundation to start and then starting to expand and learn and learn That's going to help, you know, somebody really grow and get into it My I remember my son and I were playing a set once and there was another bucket drummer Or another street drummer in the area and he was playing a set down the road like just a little bit down from us And then he actually came over And he was, you know, technically our competition, but he you know, wasn't quite as Skilled and seasoned the drummer is us and we sat with him actually he had him sit in our set We showed him a couple grooves He added him into his set and then he went and started playing, you know And he added those new rhythms and I was just like that to me. That's what it's about You know, it's it's trying to I guess teach the next generation of street drummers I mean, that's that's awesome because he is competition He is literally like like you said, he's not that far from you and he you taught him and then he went and took your Style and kind of did it down the road. But but that's you know That's what drumming is as we share with each other and and also with drumming typically nowadays I mean What we all do in some capacity just by the nature of the drums has kind of been done before It's like playing the two four, you know beat it's like you can do it in a lot of different ways But it's not like that's the difference between that and a piano or whatever where you can, you know, it's it's just how drums are um So and then one thing I want to ask before we could talk about tips for people who want to get into this is um All right, so my my two experiences of of street drumming that I had the one in europe and then the one Here where I said I went out with my brother and the bucket broke But when we first started we were outside of a building downtown Cincinnati Which it turned out was a federal building and they pretty quickly came out and said this is like a federal building You cannot sit here or whatever go go further down. Um How does that work with? uh The businesses around you because like we're talking about the turnovers pretty quick on an audience but at the let's say like, um, you know women's clothing store or the coffee shop that you're kind of like 15 feet away from if you were playing a four hour set and you're going all day and they might might not want to hear that all day How does that work with the local businesses? Yes, that's uh, that's you know, I dedicate an entire chapter to this So we're you know, we're going to be able to pull it apart in this few seconds But I that's a great question So with a federal building what DC was a great example of the federal buildings, right? because everything out down there is owned by the government and It was interesting If you played on one side of the site like one so you're on the sidewalk And if you played on the side closest to the building it was illegal But if you played on the side closest to the curb next to the street, it was legal So we and we even had one time because we used to play out in front of wash in front of the white house, which is a Really great spot to play um but The we I remember we set up one time and we started playing and then the cop came over and he's like you can't play here We're like what there's people everywhere and there's other performers. It's like no He's like you have to move three feet Onto this section. This is basically Legal and this is not legal So, you know, one of the things that I do recommend and that is knowing what the rules are wherever you live You know, the guy Carl down in in In Auckland, New Zealand He is he's they have a permit system there and they're only allowed to play For like I think it's 50 minutes in each spot And they're really strict about it. And so he you know, he mentions that Part of that system what works for it is that he's at a spot like, you know, in front of a bakery or something And they're only going to hear him for 50 minutes and then he moves on Where if you do set up and you're like, I'm here for four hours, you know That can be droning and one of the biggest Challenges is a lot of times those business owners They also are friends with city council members mayors law enforcement And so they can cause a lot of strife for drummers And you know street musicians in general and so knowing the rules Knowing the laws we even got, you know, in with some store owners when we played in dc because There was no public bathrooms anywhere we were So, you know, we Always kind of frequent in those places and they would let us use the bathroom and things So those are logistical things again I I talk about in the book, but those are things that you got to consider, right? Yeah, be out there for a long time. How do you get food? How do you drink you can't leave your spot because somebody else will take it Yeah, and depending on the city Depend depends on the rules that you have to adhere to and it changes from place to place. Yeah, and and you know, again just uh Your your book like I could very quickly Kind of flip through as you're talking to be like, oh, there's the page that says blurred lines It can be difficult to know where street drumming is allowed and it's like If you really do have an interest in doing this or in a background And i'm not trying to be too salesy with it or anything But I I really am enjoying your book just to know these things About it because god, you know, it sounds uh, I've it hasn't I mean It was probably 12 or 13 years ago that I did that with my brother And it sounds like a lot of fun to go and do it again. Um, and and just get out there. Um, so Uh, then let's transition into here. So so How does someone what do you recommend? Gear wise, uh, maybe things I so you said have a couple Rhythms kind of ready to go in mind, you know, which if you're if you're an experienced drummer shouldn't be a problem at all Let's assume people people listening to this podcast Um Our drummers they have a little bit of a background in that but what kind of gear What kind of stuff do you think they should have to go out because on the cover? You've got a hi-hat stand You've got kind of arms going across with tambourines and little stacks and your son has like Bent license plates and stuff that he's playing which is really really cool Um, but kind of what would be the intro that you would give to people on what they should Start with Yeah, I think the first thing is you got to know yourself, right? So The your capabilities are a big part of that. Um, you know drummers that play on a single bucket Um, you know, and I've played sets on single buckets. You've got to have some serious chops to do it Um, you know, because you've got to be able to keep it interesting. That's a big part of it The other thing is mobility. Where are you? How are you getting from place to place? Um, I was talking to some some drummers they can kind of pull up and they're not too far from location When I was in washington dc We had to go blocks and blocks to get to our place and so we would load all our gear up On a skateboard And then we would shift it over there and then we'd set up really quick and our setup was pretty simple We use five, you know, we brought like five buckets out and I had a mini hi-hat that had two splashes And then I took a hi-hat stand and like cut it down Um, and we also use a rubber made bucket that we kind of use as a base So we kind of created like almost like a hybrid drum set Street percussion thing because that's where my strength flies Yeah So to me, I think knowing your strength is a big part of it Some people if you if you're a minimalist drummer that works really good, you know Just a simple small kick drum, you know 18 20 inch And then you know a snare drum and then a hi-hat if you can do that I've seen people go out with not not terry bozio style But I see people come out with some, you know pretty regular sized drum sets Um, it's a very popular especially in london Where there's, you know, they've got like a regular five piece kit and they're out there just kind of You know playing like, you know, the I call it the guitar center beat, you know You know a little kind of drum and bass thing. Um, you know, so like that's to me, that's the starting point It's what gear do you have? Can you move it? Um, I do I think the simplest setup honestly is to do a bucket And a cymbal And when I say a cymbal, which kind of is fun because if you if you go back to gene palma Right back in the day, uh gene palma was just playing on a snare drum and a cymbal and um, so one of the things A lot of drummers do I know carl does this Is they put like a hi-hat on the ground, you know, take a hi-hat bottom You put on the ground and if you put your foot on it even on the concrete you can actually get like a Yeah, you get like that, you know that lifted hi-hat or closed hi-hat And so they'll play like, you know And then on the left hand say doom got to go do got so you got You know, so you're putting that whole groove together, um, which requires some Serious, you know some independence But if you've got a hi-hat and the bucket you can also play on the concrete you can play, you know sticks You know you can play all sorts of different sounds But that's to me like a really basic way to do it. Yeah, that's neat and and So legally there's no with permits and stuff. I guess there wouldn't technically be any difference between bringing a five piece Uh drum set with like two crashes and a ride and hi-hats versus playing a single bucket Um, you know what I mean? Like it almost kind of thinks like it makes it makes me think those are two separate things um Because the footprint and just the volume of a drum set, but I guess they're treated the same legally, right? It depends again on the city. So that's that's a good question. So deciple some So it's it isn't interesting and really I guess complicated topic. Um, that's why it's pretty, you know, I get pretty in-depth with it on the book but the um So there was actually a supreme court case where the Free basically the freedom of expression Um, they there was this city that tried to outlaw Actually a few cities tried to outlaw street performers and they cited it as being dangerous That it was not safe for people to do street performing Um, the supreme court sided with this is the united states supreme court Sided with the performers saying well, the first of all, there hasn't been really any or very few instances where this has occurred Where our safety issues come out about but also more importantly That the right of or the freedom of speech aspect of it supersedes the um I guess the danger And so that's one of the reasons washington dc where I played was such a great place to play is because it was Permitted because it was just like somebody protesting or somebody trying to you know, put a message out there Um, you and you not the one rule that's almost universal though is you cannot ask for tips You can have a bucket out And people can put money in it But you cannot actively say hey, you know, you can't be like mary poppins You know burt and mary poppins and walk around with a hat and say can I have some money? Wow, um, you have to you have to just leave it there and if people put money in You're good That's interesting. Okay boy, I didn't know that um I mean that's there's so many little uh Kind of nuances where I guess you would if you go out and do it Trial and error you'd probably find stuff out about about this. Um, just by hitting the streets and and doing it So you can also just talk like you can just talk to um, call local law enforcement There's codes and they can tell you like, um, even here in where I live in washington like seattle and stuff Um, or even portland not too far south of us um, they have restrictions But as long as you know where you can play in the city It's not a big deal And I just like to note that that supreme court case was goldstein in town of nantucket And then another one was to have important alexander virginia. So there was some pretty big cases that were related to this yeah Man so much research. I mean it's uh, again the book is called street drumming the people history and grooves And I just really think it's cool because I want to hear now a little bit about as we wrap up You know what got you into this, but it's just neat that you are you know a phd recipient like you're a doctor and you're Just for the joy of it and I also as a dad. I think it's really cool that you With your son are out there doing this. I mean, there's nothing more like just uh, that's just such a cool activity to be doing um, because you're kind of teaching like, um, I don't know put yourself out there play in front of people. There's nothing to be nervous about uh, you know, you're you're being really You're you're Kind of using your brain to put together this kind of small drum set and then you got to carry it You got to work for it. It's a lot of it teaches a lot of lessons. Um, but so what got you into this? Um, You know in general to begin with yeah, so I think it's I Historic I guess for myself historic my history, right? Um, I think I saw I remember the first time I saw a street drummer Um, I grew up in san diego, california and I and I went to a trip to new york city When I was in high school band, right? You know, I was playing, you know center snare, you know Check it out. Check it out. You know type stuff and then um, I remember we marched in like a parade back there and played like a field show and I remember coming out of a um a subway stop and and hearing a street drummer and I was just completely Interested in it. Um Years later. Um, when I was in europe, I ran into a couple street drummer, you know street drummers Playing in a couple cities and then when I was ended up living in the washington dc area because of my role As a musician I ended up having I was just like, you know, it'd be really cool to kind of Do this street drumming thing because it's pretty easy to do in this area And we really spent a lot of time creating a setup that was unique You know, we tried to offer something that we hadn't seen anybody else do um And so as we were doing that was like, well, hey bud, do you want to you know talking to my oldest son mil? I said, hey, do you want to you want to go do this? And he's like, I ought to be cool I'm like and you'll make money. He's like, well, that's even better um So I really actually used it kind of as a a lesson in entrepreneurship And how what we do as drummers can be lucrative and he learned very quickly, you know that You know, he had friends who were working at mcdonald's and you know arby's And and maybe like yeah making this money and he's like, oh, I made that in like Five minutes, you know, so like for him, you know, of course, there was a lot of work that went into it And there was a few times I you know, I'd say that You know, sincerely, um, but at the same and joking, I guess But it was also times where we you know, it was a loss where we go out and it starts to rain Yeah, and we make $20 it didn't even cover our transportation to get to the gig, you know So and also that was an important lesson to be like, look dude, this is a business You know, you're putting yourself out there. You're taking all the risk You know, you got to pay for sticks because every we went through a lot of sticks You got to pay for buckets, you know the metal stuff that we're playing that looks all cool and shiny that stuff dies You know, you can you can destroy a hubcat You know, like so all those little things die over time and you have to Invest and so to me that was maybe one of the greater lessons from a dad Perspective, but I also mentioned in the book, you know, that street drumming is a business There's people that make a full time living of it. Chris Harris is probably the greatest example He even there's even a section that I talked about pay your taxes and he's really adamant about that He's like, look, he's like if you it's a legitimate business He's like, I I've bought my house my car You know, I run my whole life because I this I look at this and he's able to get loans and other things because His street drumming is what he does and he claims it and the bank is like, yeah, you're consistently making you know x y z dollars and You know, it's viable. Yeah, awesome. Well, john, I am so Uh, just happy to have had you on here to talk about the great book street drumming and and just meet you and and hear more about this and John was kind enough to stick around for a little bit and do a patreon bonus episode Which john, I think we talked a little bit before I think it'd be cool to hear about maybe one or two stories of when things People like the drama about when things maybe didn't go so well or something broke or just kind of some Some craziness happened out on the streets. Uh, if that's okay with you Yeah, yeah, we could totally do that. John. Why don't you tell people here as we're kind of finishing up where they can get this awesome book Yeah, so you can get it two places one you can get it on amazon.com I just look up street drumming that put the title in Um street drumming the people history of the group and grooves Or you can pick it up at my website, which is john owens drums.com Cool Awesome, and like I said, I highly recommend it. I don't have much background in street drumming I've done a few things, but it's just fun to look at and it's very Uh, like I said, it's just this got great pictures and it's kind of a resource Like a like a handbook to just quickly get through and find stuff and um and learn a little bit more so John, thank you so much for being here and um and sharing your immense knowledge and sending me the book I've just loved it. Um, it's been an honor to talk to you about this. Yeah, it's been a blast and uh, yeah, keep drumming If you like this podcast find me on social media at drum history And please share rate and leave a review and let me know topics that you would like to learn about the future Until next time keep on learning