 So recording from now. Well, good morning everybody. My name is Chris Morrison. Good morning and my name's Jane Secker. And we're the co-chairs of the Copyright and Online Learning Special Interest Group, Special Interest Group of the Association for Learning Technology. We're very excited today, aren't we, as well? We are. Yes, we are. This is webinar number 60. So no expense has been spared here in the celebrations, have they? Absolutely, OK. Rolling out the red carpet. OK, and what have we got? Diamond adversary. So here we go. So there we go. This is the extent that we go to in order to... The creativity. The creativity. The sort of... The pageantry, I would say. Yes. Just wait till we get to the coronation. Imagine what we're going to be doing then. Indeed. If this is just a small taste of how creative we can be. So, yes, very excited. I did want balloons and party poppers and 60 banners, but you wouldn't let me. You were worried people might think it was your birthday, weren't you? I was. Possibly. So what have we got going on today? We've got a bunch of copyright news, very exciting things, events and all those sorts of things, but the main topic of today is another becoming a copyright specialist, and we've got two fantastic guests with us today, Lisa Moore and Tim Riley. So we'll introduce them in a moment. Absolutely. But shall we get on with the main order of business? Well, it's not really the main order, is it? But it's just the thing that we do since we last met. So what's this picture all about? We were on our way to Senate House, my favourite conference venue in central London. And we were discussing what we ought to wear at icepops, I think, weren't we? We were also both thinking about a new look for us. So in our kind of rollers. And I think we can see. Webinar host, stroke, children's entertainers. Yeah. So this has got an interesting, is that animal print? Or those are dungarees, aren't they? They're definitely dungarees. Yeah. I'm thinking dungarees are going to be the new look this summer. They're going to be big, aren't they? But yeah, that's Chris's outfit. I think the one with the green shirt, isn't it? Well, you're asking the wrong person because I'm colour blind. I know that there are lots of colours, but I couldn't necessarily pick out which ones they were. Yeah. So come in soon. OK. Come in soon. Yes. Watch this space for more fashion tips from us. So this is a reminder that we have an archive of webinars and blogs. And we're hoping that we've got Greg Poppins. And we have Greg absolutely putting things in here and links from there. So let's get on to the next part, which is the ever-feredial Copyright News. So the first slide of Copyright News, Greg, we've already got the link in there. It's very exciting because we have done a meet-up with the Pedagodzilla podcast team. So Copyright Waffle meets Pedagodzilla. And our topic was communities of practice and the Muppets. So how do you create the most sensational, inspirational, celebrational, muppetational community of practice? I was going to hope you were going to say that. Yes. I couldn't have said that. Yes. It's actually the second time we met Mark and Mike who were on Pedagodzilla. And this came out this morning. Yes. So hot off the press. It did. We had such a fun time talking to them, a playful learning, that they wanted to talk to us more. And we're also meeting up with them next week at the Lilac conference to record a podcast as well with the chatting info lit, new professionals podcast that was launched a couple of weeks ago as well. Absolutely. It's all about the podcast at the moment. It is. So for those of you that haven't heard any of the Pedagodzilla podcast, they're absolutely brilliant. Yeah. The way that they work is they pick a topic about learning theory and then pick something from pop culture to help explain it by way of analogy and metaphor. So we're talking about communities of practice and we're talking a lot about this group, these webinars and all the fabulous people that come along and how we talked about copyright. It sounds like a mad idea, but it kind of works. And actually looking at it through the mental. It doesn't kind of work. It does work. It really does. It does. Through the Muppets and there is a musical treat and there is. Yeah. We may share later on if we can find it. Okay. So the next thing is serious. Yes. Serious news. So there was some really exciting news last week. I think this came out. No, actually it's first of May, first of April. Sorry. And it's not an April Fool's joke. No. So some of you will have been following what's happening with Creative Commons licensed images. I think I've been told a webinar about this, I think about 18 months ago now, where people will try to put up Creative Commons licensed images with an old version of the license to try and kind of catch you out if you then don't attribute them correctly. So Corey Doctorow has been very outspoken about this copyright trolling and picked this up off his blog that essentially Flickr have now made an announcement saying, you know, that this practice is basically completely against the spirit of their licenses. And really good quote that we just picked out from his post about that really where he's saying, you know, obviously if you are putting a Creative Commons license on your work, it is an explicit message that I want you to use it. And you know. Not I am a pedantic asshole with a fetish for well formed attribution strings. So that's typical, typical Corey. You say it very fast as well. Yes, he would. And I wouldn't have quite understood what he said. And then you'd catch up eventually. So we did have a conversation with Corey on one of the previous copyright waffle podcast. So check out his in-depth discussion of that. And this is an update on that. Yeah. And on the blog post, there is a link through to, you know, basically the Flickr announced announcement, what they're saying, how they've changed their practice and, you know, being very clear that this is not acceptable to do this and to go after people and demand payment if they misattribute your image. Yeah. So I think it sounds like good news. Maybe a topic for us to talk about in a bit more detail, a future webinar. Absolutely. I can see Chris Slater saying just had another one of those pop up at Kent recently. So that it is something that where universities are targeted for these. Absolutely. This is to say that the recording of the fair dealing event that we ran in conjunction with the Institute for Advanced Legal Studies, where we had Amanda Wackerook from University of Alberta and Kyle K. Courtney from Harvard. Join us back in February. And Amanda was talking all about fair dealing cases in Canada and looking at how Canada does kind of the sort of halfway between UK and US in terms of its legal tradition and some of the interesting things that have happened there around fair dealing. So that recording is available for anyone that wasn't able to catch it. Great event as well. Excellent, excellent event. Yes. And another recording of an event, another excellent event that was took place in February. A copyright, you know, flexible copyright exceptions. Emily Hudson was one of the speakers, I think, at this event that some of you might have joined live, but I've just popped a link, we've put a link into the where this is hosted on YouTube. So if you missed it and you want to catch up then and it's hosted by Felix Redder as well. And I think Ben White is speaking. There's a couple of other people as well. Did you mention Emily Hudson? Emily Hudson speaking. Yes, I did. Is Emily with us on the call? I don't know. I just want to give us a summary of what she said. Maybe this time later on. So moving on to the next one. The bookings for Ice Pops have opened. This is where the party pops. So this is going to be, I think I've said before, the best ever looking like. It's going to be the best ever. Not to say that the previous ones weren't good, but just this one, it's all coming together and it's partly. It's a festival of copyright interest. And because we're working with University of Glasgow, and Greg's doing fantastic work helping arrange things. Oh no, he's not setting up a beer tent. Sorry. And the partnership with Create, the research centre there. It's looking like it's going to be fantastic. The bookings are open. They're already coming in. We're pleased to see that. And we are going to be putting up a program. The program is coming together. So all forward to. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. Webinar evaluation, yes. Webinar evaluation. We want to evaluate what you think of this. We did this once before. We did. But we have been running these webinars for some time. As you know, this is number 60. And so we are planning. Oh, we have got a survey that we're we're about to start publicising. It is up and live now. So we're going to get an email out on this copy seek about this. And then the the call seek newsletter as well. But we would just like to give you kind of advanced warning of this. We are looking to build on the data that we collected from the survey we did right at the. I think we did it right at the end of 2020 where we were trying to sort of work out what impacts we've had and what we should do going forward. It was really, really useful. But we feel it would actually be helpful at this point to also just understand what what the benefit is of the webinars, whether you just want us to stop and go away, you know, whether there is something different we should be doing. So please do look out for that survey and, you know, tell us honestly what you think about what we're doing and how you'd like these webinars to be in the future. And we'd also say huge thanks to Sarah Hammond at Cambridge, who has been putting this together and has done all the sort of heavy lifting on putting this together. Absolutely. So this is the main topic. It's becoming a copyright specialist. Can I say something about the coming? You can. By all means. Yes. Yesterday I was hosting a webinar for my module with the fabulous Dave White from the University of Arts London. He's head of digital education there. And he was also talking about this idea about learning as becoming. And it, you know, when you study this project that a lot of it is about, you know, becoming that type of that, you know, whether it's a sociologist, whether it's a historian, it's a kind of process that you go through and it's about your identity. And this really, really resonates, I think, with this idea of the kind of, you know, becoming a copyright specialist, particularly when lots of us actually don't necessarily deliberately set out to do this as well. It's a bit of a journey. It's a bit of a process as well. And, you know, there's these kind of threshold concepts, all sorts of things. There's quite a lot of anxiety tied up in it. So I just think that this is really fantastic to have two great people from our community again joining us to talk about becoming a copyright specialist. And I, yeah, I see it as a process as well. It is absolutely a process. So we're going to have Tim from the University of Aberdeen in a moment. But first of all, we're going to have Lisa Moore, Copyright and Compliance Manager of the University of the Creative Arts. So Lisa, can you, can we hear you? Can we see you? Do you want to turn your targeting computer on? Here I am. Can you hear me? There you are, Lisa. Great. And I remember, I think the first time we met was January 2015. Cardiff. I was running Copyright and it was great to meet you then and obviously you are now, I think obviously you're going to tell us your story, but we work together on the Copyright Negotiation Group and all sorts of things and you're a regular at the webinar. So I won't say too much more other than to say over to you and thank you so much for joining us. Thank you. Thank you for having me. So it's great to come and sort of share my story. I've put on my first slide my double life because I don't do Copyright full time at the university I work at, but rather I lead this double life where I'm a yoga teacher and also a Copyright specialist at the university for the creative arts and that might resonate with some of you, perhaps some of you have two jobs and for me it's been really positive where the one has really massively helped the other. So I will talk a little bit about that. This is just a breakdown of kind of what I've learned. I'll go into this in more detail, but it's massively helped me gain confidence, be curious about possibilities, to take informed risks very important, not to be overwhelmed, to trust my instincts and to find a community has been really helpful. So I will talk a little bit about that towards the end. So a little bit about myself, so I was born in 1980, I think Debbie Harry had released Call Me, there were chunky mobile phones and BMX bikes and yeah, the 80s were wonderful. So I was born in 1980 in Hampshire, that's me on the left. And as a child I was not creative. I was not academic at all. I was very creative. So the idea that I would end up in a library at a university is just hilarious to me because I was yeah, I was not academic at all. And this images of me aged, I think maybe four, and I had created my own community of balloon friends. So when I say build a community this is not what I'm talking about joining a community but yeah, I was very artistic shall we say and yeah, creating balloon friends. So what that led me to kind of go on to was to go to art school. And from 1999 to 2004 I studied art school at the Surrey Institute of Art and Design and I gained a BA in pre-dimensional design and an MA in contemporary craft and probably the most sort of realistic picture of what I did was that middle one. I kind of did porcelain sculptures where they were little pieces of porcelain that slotted together to make these these sculptures. So I did a lot of that and I was lucky enough to be published in Surrey Review. I had an exhibition in London and very fortunate to go to Japan for a symposium there. So yeah, so I sort of had this artistic life which was great and interestingly the Surrey Institute of Art and Design became the university that I now work at. So I sort of came back full circle eventually. So after I graduated from art school I struggled to find a job because you can kind of imagine. So I went into archives and modern records management. I worked at the Surrey History Centre and looked after production records there and it really helped. It kind of helped me with things like attention to detail. I went on after working at the archive centre. I also worked as a registrar. So if you have been at the wedding and there's the person sat with the book, that was me. I was a registrar of the birth, death and marriages. And because I came from this artistic background I did struggle. I had dyslexia I struggled quite a lot and something that this really helped me with these jobs was just attention to detail and yeah. So moving on from that I kind of felt that those jobs while they were useful I really wanted to be an educator. I really felt that that was my kind of calling if you like. And so after a while I looked up jobs and would you know my old art school had a job in the library of all places. So I applied and got this great job in the library and it was really through encouragement of my boss at the time that they persuaded me to take the postgraduate diploma in information studies at Aberystwyth and to become a kind of qualified librarian and at the same time for some kind of crazy reason at the same time I decided that I would also take a yoga teacher training and do both at the same time which I don't recommend. So yeah so I kind of had this strange parallel where I was learning all this librarian work and then I was also training as the yoga teacher. So that's what I did from kind of 2009 ish. And while I was working in the library what I found how I kind of came to be in to do with copyright I loved tackling a tricky problem and that might resonate with some of you and that kind of got round to other colleagues. If something came in and it was a kind of tricky question or it was complicated and it had this copyright or something about ethics it kind of came my way because I quite liked tackling those sorts of things and the more I did it it wasn't part of my job I did it the more I got these queries to answer and work around. So I was very lucky that the sort of my bosses at the time sort of saw these queries coming in someone was looking after the CLA license someone else was looking after the ERA license and they kind of had the idea to actually bring all of it together into one job and I was kind of offered this job so I was very lucky that it sort of evolved and I was involved in kind of what that job description would look like so I was very fortunate from that perspective and one of the first things I had to tackle was they put copyright and digitisation together in the job and my university had 17,000 BHS to transfer also their original idea was to transfer all of them which was kind of a bit crazy but I had to tackle again this sort of tricky problem of what do we do with 17,000 BHS which is stored off site so that was one of the other things I had to tackle so working in an arts institution arts university does definitely come up with lots of interesting queries I get asked a lot about things like collages music the most recent one was about architectural plans being screen printed it really massively varies and I don't find that the queries that I get are always the same it really does it's just so completely different from one query to the next and I find that they tend to be layered so there will be a copyright element in there but there might also be an ethical component to that there might be like data protection it can be just so layered and part of kind of what I have to do is kind of take it apart in a way the query and examine it so that's what I find as well as dealing with student and staff kind of queries around copyright I also get involved in some of the projects that the university does so this project was Zandra Rhodes study collection and this is ongoing we're still involved in this so Zandra Rhodes was our chancellor at one point so we've been involved in digitising some of the clothes, the garments some of her sketchbooks these are some of her sketchbooks which are amazing I'll put the link in the chat so just really interesting and varied stuff and I get involved in how we're going to licence this and what kind of licence we're going to put out interestingly talking about Debbie Harry earlier the garments the drawings on the left are designs for Debbie Harry back in day so it's amazing but yeah I'll put the link in the chat and you can explore that collection if you if it's of interest so I kind of worked this job as a copyright officer and got a little bit more confident we would go out on the road to various campuses and we would promote copyright resources and my colleague who deals with open access she came along as well and we just kind of went around and talked to people and it's part of what I did but this is sort of what I wanted to really talk about something I massively struggled with was gaining the confidence particularly to speak in public and colleagues often other copyright colleagues I talked to it's massively about trusting that you know what you know you have all this knowledge you've done the events and you've done the research and just trusting that you do know what you know the event in 2017 was probably the scariest one I've ever done if you know the welcome trust there's an auditorium there and I couldn't believe when I came to this event that it was going to be in this massive auditorium so the picture on the left is just me petrified on stage but the public speaking does get better the more that you do talking in workshops about copyright and the same at the same time I was a yoga teacher taking classes and I gained confidence with having to demonstrate in class I had to learn about anatomy and things so massively gaining confidence and trusting that you do know what you know and trusting that and then I put in this slide because a big part of what I've learned is just being curious about possibilities so what I've learned is when a query comes in about seeing whether an exception applies whether a license might apply what about copyright duration has someone else had this issue and just being really curious and again through what I've done with my yoga teaching is a playful approach is not being constrained by what I teach and that it has to be certain poses it's having this more free approach and looking at all of the possibilities and then I guess this is probably similar for many of us to taking formed risks and particularly like the pandemic kind of forced that we had to start to think about taking risks to just deliver content to students and I've learned from artists that I talk to and having been an artist myself that massively part of the DNA of being an artist is taking risks is pushing those boundaries so I had to kind of find my rebellious streak as well when I first joined the university they were very much saying no to anything they were very risk averse and actually when you come when you learn more and more and more about copyright particularly about the exceptions and what's written in the exceptions actually looking at the legislation in detail you find that sometimes it's what's not said in the legislation and that can bring up possibilities so yeah the COVID pandemic definitely enabled me to take informed risks and then another thing I wanted to share was not be so overwhelmed I really felt when I first started my job as a copyright officer I massively felt the pressure to answer queries straight away that I think taking your time is definitely something that I found really useful like I've said taking time to unpick the query it's often layered for me and then this has been a more recent thing I've found is discussing the issue with that student or that staff member and having a bit of a two way conversation so rather than feeling that you have to have the answer that I had to have the answer there and then on a plate it's actually kind of discussing discussing that issue with them and saying well how about this and what about that in my in my yoga teaching quite often people will say well you know I felt this in my body here when we moved and we did that and it's kind of like oh that's interesting you know I don't necessarily have the answer as to why that might be but let's talk about that and kind of having that dialogue rather than I think I put too much pressure on myself probably to begin with that I had to have kind of a clear answer straight away so that might resonate with you and then just trusting your instincts I guess this is a time I mean I don't know what other people feel this might be like a time thing over time you start to develop a feeling for stuff and that you can gradually start to just develop your instincts about when a query comes in what your initial thoughts are as to whether it's whether it's kind of fair what they're wanting to do I'm constantly asking myself what am I comfortable what am I comfortable with and is this now veering out of my my comfort zone and feeling maybe that sometimes the person asking the query they want a particular answer which perhaps is not what you're able to to give so it's sort of trusting trusting your instincts and you're accountable so I think you've got to be comfortable with whatever you're advising and again the same with my life as a yoga teacher I stand up there I have to kind of have that accountability and what I've started to do is it's actually moved more into therapeutic movement and therapeutic exercise because that's just what I'm more comfortable with and what I sort of have belief in I suppose so my last slide is just around finding community and that's just been so helpful to have the copy seat community to have opportunities like ice pops to network with people to ask others and to just sort of chat not necessarily about copyright but about other things has just been really helpful so that copyright doesn't feel so scary talking about legal issues and legal implications is all a bit scary so having that community has definitely helped me and that's me I think that was 15 minutes thank you for listening thank you thank you so much Lisa that was absolutely fantastic really great round of applause so we've got some really great chat comments coming into the chat I would encourage people to either post questions or further reflections on everything Lisa said there's definitely a few things we would like to pick up so we're going to have a conversation at the end of the session where we after we've heard from Tim so that was brilliant was brilliant let us stay on the line later we'll come back to you I think there's going to be some interesting parallels as we're going on another journey aren't we now we are we're going we're sailing on the seven seas I think with Tim I think this one's got a bit of a nautical thing it is nautical but nice we've got there Tim are you there hello I can hear me we can hear you loud and clear so okay Tim Riley information advisor copyright at the University of Aberdeen can you go to you explain what this is all about please yes I have got some explaining to do I think okay thanks ever so much for inviting me to talk to you today it's wonderful to be with you and thank you everyone for listening as you see I've gone with a kind of piratical theme I suppose it's sort of copyright related for my presentation here I'm going to take you on a journey and yeah thinking about this it really is a journey I think rather than a destination I know that's quite a day to say but I'm definitely going to be focused on the becoming part of the question because I feel like it's always a process of learning you're always moving it's not like a set destination that you ever reach it's an ongoing process so I've got that quote there it's Ralph Waldo Emerson slightly out of context I think he was talking about life with this quote what is life without copyright really so what I want to do today this is my quick itinerary here I'm going to talk a little bit about sort of who I am how I ended up here that I want to look more generally at maybe some kind of personal qualities or skills that you might want to develop if you're thinking of becoming a copyright specialist and then I've just got a few tips at the end things that I've kind of learned along the way that might help you as well so yeah a little bit about me how did I end up here a question which I often ask myself and it might surprise you and it might surprise you to know maybe not that I'm another one of these sort of creative people basically a failed musician really so I'm not going to start right from the very beginning from my beginnings in the 1980s we'll skip through that bit but I'll start pick up with my yeah experience at university where I did a music degree as my first degree it was great fun I really loved it but when I finished I basically had no idea what I was going to do so I sort of I'm done and procrastinated and the only thing I could think of doing which is basically to do another music degree so I did a second degree an MA in music and surprise surprise by the time I got to the end of that I still didn't have a clue what I wanted to do I was in exactly the same position the only difference was I was significantly poorer than I was at the start of the degree so I thought it's time to go and look for like proper work so when I was studying I'd done part-time work waste disposal at supermarket which was not great fun and then I had a job I was basically working at Penn's Outfitters if you can believe it but yeah I didn't particularly enjoy it and then just by chance I saw a job advertised for a library assistant at the University Library where I studied this was down in Bristol so I applied for this job I had no expectations that I would get it but I don't know whether it's just because I had a nice suit because I worked in an outfitters but they offered me a job as a library assistant which I gladly took it was advertised as just being temporary for a year so I took it on and then when it came to the end of the 12 months I still didn't know what I was going to do but I went to speak to my manager and said look my contract's coming to an end what can I do and she checked with HR and there had been some kind of error and I'd actually been put on a permanent contract so I ended up working for the University of Bristol for a good number of years being various different jobs so my first role of course was as the library assistant and so I got my first introduction to copyright there with the usual kind of things you get told about copyright the limits for photocopying I worked a bit with our disability service in the library providing materials in alternative formats so I became a little bit aware of the kind of legislation around that kind of area so I was producing material actually making the alternative format copies for some of our users I tried to make Derrida accessible don't go there and also I worked a little bit social media was starting to become a thing so I was producing posts sometimes things Facebook posts that kind of thing so again I started to become aware of around reusing images and things like that it wasn't really until I moved on a bit further the copyright started to become more and more of a thing in the roles that I did so I worked for a while I did an MSc degree in library and information management like Huey I worked in the careers service where copyright was a major aspect what I did was when I became an open access manager at Bristol so with this I really became exposed to all the issues around licensing open access under mandates the use of third party material in publications that really came to the fore there and then when I moved on to become a subject librarian I was tasked with providing the copyright advice for basically anything that wasn't science so all the arts and humanities I was the main point of contact for anybody who had a copyright query around that kind of area and at the same time I took on a part time role as a copyright advisor for a MOOC massive online open course that was being developed by the university it was one of their first phrase into this kind of area one of the first ones where they were opening it up trying to promote it more widely to the public they were quite risk averse with what they were putting on there so it was my job was to source image source material clear rights with people the log of everything so that was probably the first job I had where yeah copyright was literally all I was doing that was only part time I then moved to Aberdeen and became a liaison librarian at RGU and then just over a year ago I got my first dedicated copyright post here at the University of Aberdeen so this is the first role in some time where all I do is basically copyright related stuff the scene here I've got a pirate captain in the image hopefully my job does not involve me leaving quite as much chaos and destruction in my wake as this picture might imply but yeah the main object of my role I'm after inquiries provide guidance for people I started teaching around copyright literacy particularly to post-bred students which has been really interesting students are actually a lot more involved and not more engaged with this topic and you might think she had been surprised some of them are actually more engaged than the staff I spoke with which is quite interesting also to oversee the CLA license managing that a really interesting copyright literacy project at the moment where we're making a copyright policy and a copyright literacy strategy for the University which is really exciting I had loads of questions about trying to find out what people are doing so if you've been on this copy-seek we've seen my pleas for information going out on there so there we go just to kind of make this a bit more interesting visual here is just a couple of things I've been working on so yeah I've been revamping our copyright guidance pages trying to make them more accessible a bit less like full story and a bit more short and digestible making information leaflets there I've got one about creative commons explaining through the medium of ice cream and then some of the teaching and presentations I've done promoting our copyright literacy policy there and as well yeah some of the teaching I've done with post-credits getting them to think about their rights when they're publishing so that's enough about me so let's look now at some of the personal qualities or things to think about if you want to become a very specialist I could also call this risk factors I suppose things to watch out for if you're concerned about yourself or a loved one you think this might happen to you here's what you want to watch out for so here we go one of the reasons why I am today is my inability to say no maybe this is a bit flippant but probably it's more like a willingness to take things on to take risks and try new things and to get stuck in that's also as has been mentioned already solving problems puzzling things out is a key part of being a copyright specialist in my opinion certainly something I've found is you need to kind of dig deep interrogate things think about different possibilities different options what can you do within the law what level of risk are you willing to take on and sort of slotting all that together as well being comfortable with risk and uncertainty of course there are many gray areas in copyright it's not always obvious correct if it's e-commerce the course of action is it's not always a clearly defined right or wrong particularly with copyright exceptions so it's being comfortable with risk and working with uncertainty as well it's something you might not have to begin with I think you can develop that skill as well another thing I think is really important is an ability to explain complex ideas in a simple and straightforward way people often come to you and they want to quit a straightforward answer as with copyright that's not always easy to do it's not always the case there's a simple answer that you can give so being patient being able to probe people and find out what they really want and then being able to explain sometimes quite complex legal ideas in a digestible and understandable way I think that's a really important skill to develop as well both sort of orally sort of two spoken face-to-face queries and also if you're writing copy for web pages and guides and that kind of thing as well it's important there of course as well and again here at Cats again, curiosity I think that's something that's really important if you want to become a specialist you really want to get down and know about copyright you've got to be curious and interested in it really be willing to kind of read around and investigate things think about different possibilities when inquiries and queries come in but also sort of keeping yourself up to date just finding out what's going on not being content with just looking at something on the surface level but really digging in and finding out more about what's going on what the current issues are and reading around so with all that in mind here are my tips for playing the sailing these are just things I found that have helped me in my copyright journey so as I said staying current and reading around I think is really important something maybe a bit maybe this is just peculiar to me but I found at least to begin with I almost felt guilty when I was kind of like reading things or watching webinars like it wasn't proper work but it is really important so I've been trying to set aside time dedicated time in the week to make sure I'm reading the news around copyright and taking time to educate myself I think that's really important and something not to feel guilty about as has been mentioned before as well of joining online groups and mailing lists I think that's really important there's copy-stakes obviously the obvious one it's been so helpful to me and my journey I really see this as kind of a collective endeavour and there's not just one copyright specialist it's kind of like a group we often talk about the copyright hive mind but it's definitely not a single person thing you're not alone there's so many other people out there so much expertise that's not invested in one person it's spread throughout the community and that's something to really tap into and get involved with so following on from that as well attending events working with people it's great to find out more about what's going on in the sector, what the developments are what other people are doing you can pinch ideas from other people with appropriate credit of course it's also really good I think just to find out that you're not alone particularly if you're the only copyright specialist or the only person working on copyright at your particular workplace it can be quite isolating sometimes I think it's good to know that the issues you're facing it's not just you people crap and the same things as well so all for attending events networking where you can of course it's not all possible to attend things in person sometimes things expensive to give your organization doesn't have much of a budget for these sort of things but since the pandemic there's so much stuff that's online as well so really take advantage of what's there something else which has already been mentioned again I think don't be afraid to ask questions and it's as much about knowing what you don't know what you do know not feeling under pressure to give people immediate answers if you're not quite sure I think part of being a specialist it's as much about knowing the right questions to ask and the topic to explore and the things to think about rather than having an immediate answer at your fingertips in every situation so that's something that I've sort of struggled with not being pressured to give an immediate answer if you're not sure and you need to do more research on something being confident enough to say that I mentioned teaching and communication skills before but some things I found really useful I've done the training on teaching I did a pure HGA advanced HE course on that that's been really helpful I even did a half day course on plain English which so so useful for graphic web content trying to make things digestible and understandable that's been really really helpful it might not just be copyright directly copyright related training and skills that are useful it's thinking about other things that relate to your role yeah communicate a big one like yeah certainly recommends doing courses on things like that UX user experience I've done training on that as well so it's really helpful so these related areas you might not immediately it's really good to explore these as well and finally look out for opportunities particularly if you're new and you're trying to get experience in this area look out for maybe projects you can get involved with webinars you can attend does your organisation need some of these like a second point of contact for copyright queries can you help out with that just look out for the things that are there because in most organisations I'm more than happy for anybody to step up and take sort of things related to copyright it's often seen as being really scary and most people don't want to attach to you the barge well so if you're willing to take this on most organisations would jump at that chance so make the most of it so yeah just to wrap up expertise it takes time it's a journey here I've got the copyright barnacles really awful messable but they kind of build up gradually they gradually accumulate and you don't realise how many of them you've got on your home and you suddenly realise you're covered in all this copyright knowledge so it is gradual and don't expect it to come overnight so yeah that's everything from me so is this the end as I said it's an ongoing journey I'm always learning and I'm happy to chat people if you've got similar issues at your organisation if you ever want to get in touch these are my contact details here so thanks ever so much for listening hope it was interesting maybe not very much new stuff but I think it's always good just to find out if people have the same issues as well so thanks very much thank you Tim absolutely brilliant we've definitely been on the journey we've been on the journey I hadn't thought about being barnacle encrusted but I guess maybe we all are to a certain extent it's a good metaphor absolutely so yeah Lisa, Tim, fantastic I think it was great and looking at the comments as well that we've had from others in the room there's clearly a lot of creativity in what you both do and that you're driven by that and I'm interested in the sort of complementary what might seem quite different about being a copyright specialist getting into the nuts and bolts of the law that you both picked up on and then some of the arts being an artist, that sort of being in that mindset and I suppose in some way Lisa, thinking about what you were saying about detail and finding it something where you weren't initially comfortable with getting into that level of detail but being an artist and being a creative person you do get into the detail it's quite a different thing and then the other aspect to that is when you are getting into the detail then you have to avoid losing sight of the big picture the whole thing all together what you're trying to do to help someone with I mean maybe starting with Lisa is that something that you've sensed that sort of is it complementary to be a creative and artistic person and then to be dealing with something which can be seen as quite administrative Yes and definitely there's that perception that my job is very administrative by sort of fellow colleagues and things but I think it's both isn't it it's having that level of detail and like I say only recently that I will go to the legal exceptions I'll look at the detail look at what's said in the exception but also what's not said and then the cogs start to turn and maybe that's the creative element I mean this is possible or this is possible and then things kind of open up so I kind of feel it's a bit of both for me it's having that detail and the patience to go through it and do the research but also then letting your creative juices sort of take over Great, great and Tim how does that dynamic kind of work for you is it the same? Yeah I think it's similar and I suppose as Lisa was saying I think in her presentation you kind of get a feel of an instinct things work as well I don't know if that's real it's the creativity thing but it's the kind of like almost I'm trying to say here but yeah you sort of you are looking at the detail but you instinctively start to get a feel for things as well as you become more and more familiar with it Yeah absolutely I think we did we did write at one point I think it's in the copywriting learning that working through this thing is as much of an art as it is a science Yeah I've just seen Andrew has put into the chat about artists and problem solving and it's all about working within limits so I think there are more analogies than you might think I mean the other thing is obviously I think that teaching about copyright it does there are certain subjects like music and art where it is much more obvious how it is relevant I was observing a music lecturer teaching earlier in the week at City as part of my job I was doing a peer review of their teaching and they were teaching about sound design and they actually started talking about copyright because they were talking about a podcast and they wanted students to kind of do some editing and then they were talking about sort of public domain audio recordings that they'd got that students could work on and things like that so you know it's kind of inherent I think in those subjects even if it's sort of it certainly doesn't seem like a natural route in but I mean it's how you got into it Chris as well isn't it from the music side so I think it's it's more usual than yeah than you might think More usual than not certainly what makes us interested in copyright is its relationship to creativity and what's that whole dynamic there another thing that we we've got a lot of comments about is around that feeling of guilt about doing your own professional development and a lot of people saying yes they do feel that something Tim you were picking up on Lisa if you had a similar sort of feeling around the time that you spend actually trying to keep up today Lisa you're muted Yes just definitely and like I think in the comments it was saying about webinars attending webinars and things you know that's massively part of your development so it's not time wasted or you know time away from other things it's really valuable Is it recognised in either of your job descriptions I was just kind of thinking about it like really to be somebody to be a copyright specialist to work in a kind of area like this we really need to be you can't answer the questions can you without probably spending almost like maybe 20% of your week actually kind of keeping yourself up to date at least you know I think when I was at LSE I had to spend a huge amount of time doing that I don't remember it being formally written down that I was allowed to do it I never do it anyway You never do what it says in your job description this is a point of principle I think it's explicitly stated in my job description might be wrong but yeah and it doesn't just benefit you it benefits other people as well and everybody else in your organisation so it's not just a purely selfish personal thing it's part of the job Yeah it's about having the update examples isn't it that you can use in your teaching sessions it's about you know I mean it's just you know there's kind of stories coming out all the time about issues related to copyright if you didn't follow them and you just sort of relied on talking about something that you've learnt about 10-15 years ago you wouldn't be doing your job properly and it's interesting after the pandemic you know my job has changed just you know because of the way that teaching is now taught where I work but I don't think my job description has been sort of updated to reflect that yeah it's interesting Caroline saying is any job description still accurate after six months on the job well yeah probably not and I think but part of that probably to be fair and this does I think link to the points that you're both making in talking about your journey and interestingly so that you were talking about the opportunity to shape that job typically when we come into a job you do shape it around yourself and there is an act of creativity in taking what it says and interpreting that into what you think is needed for that setting so I mean presumably your job does it continue to evolve oh yeah massively I now do data protection has kind of come into my job as well now so I take care of that component as well and again initially you think there isn't the crossover but like I was saying some queries have that layer in there as well where it's actually copyright issue but also data protection issue so there is overlap and some things I've been able to influence and bring into my job because I felt it's needed and then other things have kind of come come my way from from management and things yeah can I just pick up on Simon's sort of comment about how it's a really tough thing being a band of one and nobody else understanding what you do I mean I guess that's where both of you talked about why you've got a not just your balloon friends Lisa but your copyright friends now is that that is it ultimately what we've got to do I think can I ask Tim because you're now working on a copyright literacy strategy at Aberdeen do you think it's part of that to be trying to expand that out from being one to perhaps get other colleagues to engage with it or is there a limit to how much other people can if there is somebody who's the copyright person absolutely it's definitely about getting other people to engage as well it's not only about not having yourself as the single point of failure within an organisation but it's pairing other people as well I found other colleagues who I had no idea where we were interested in copyright but they thought yeah can I be involved can I help monitor the mailbox can I pick up queries when you're away so yeah there is there are other crazy people out there who are interested they come out of the woodwork don't they yeah it's the kind of it's the oh actually yeah just a clarification I see Simon said yes it's not a what always me point it's the point is that community is important both all of us doing this together here now and then within our institutions and linking all of things together it's very important but it does time is moving on isn't it so thank you so much everyone's already been saying in the comments how much they enjoyed it but that those were fantastic presentations really brilliant yeah yeah thank you so much so great to understand more about creative as well I have to say I just love both of your slides there's all the things in there who could not love cats and yoga and pirates and some fantastic images Tim I really your slides with they have made me chuckle a lot they're very very amusing it's wonderful thank you thank you both of you so before we finish we will of course just do the classic looking ahead to what's happening and Tim you made a point about keeping up to date and reading around we have a copyright news special next session on the 5th of May so if you're looking for an absolutely free to access briefing on everything you need to know about copyright you know the place to come at the beginning of May which is here and then after that we put in here now this is something people have known we've been working on for a long time with Bart Milletti learning on screen yep the code of fair practice we are anticipating we will be ready to launch maybe not before it'll definitely be a soft launch I think we will have something to share with you on the 9th of June so we're very very excited about that we are taking a break July is ice pop so we felt that we probably won't be running a webinar in July because we'll be getting ready hopefully seeing some of you at ice pops and August I think typically we haven't run a webinar, lots of people are on holiday if we get lots and lots of feedback and people pleading with us to do a webinar of course we're always available but we are looking for ideas for future topics we've just had a bit of an exchange with Christina if anybody else would like to speak in this series about becoming a copyright specialist and it is very much about that we want people at the start of their journey I know we had Chris later at the last session so people who are earlier in their career people who feel that they have maybe become a copyright specialist as well but we want a range of voices so we will probably do another one of these later this year but if you've got any topics then please do drop us a line and please look out for that survey and that's also the place to give us some feedback we have of course one last thing you've heard of chat GPT but it's nothing compared to cat GPT so here we go this is a close up of what do cats think of copyright and cat GPT brought to you by the latest in cat AI technology it's fantastic isn't it it is profound it is so check out cat GPT if you're getting if people are getting overly stressed and worried about chat GPT so thank you very much for having us we'll see you next time