 post-war reconstruction in Ukraine. This is probably one of the most interesting of all the 100 shows we have done about Ukraine in the sense that we get into a nuance, a complication, perhaps, that we really have not examined before. Vlad, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you. So we're here to talk about what you're doing for Project Expedite Justice and as a lawyer in the south of Ukraine, very close to the war zone. And to find out what, you know, the sovereignty, the nation of Ukraine is doing about people that the Russians have deployed in place of government workers, city workers, utility workers in the cities and towns it has occupied. And it's complex because these are, you know, in large part, Ukrainians. They're trying to feed their families. They're trying to get along, not to be injured or killed, not to have to leave. So they submit to the Russians and they help run the Russian airsots governments in these places where the Russians have taken over. This is a very interesting and complicated question. So thank you for joining us because this is one of the most interesting issues we've ever covered about Ukraine. So can you talk about what happens? What happens in a town, a small city where the Russians do take over? What do they do in order to, you know, run the place? Who do they hire? Who do they put in the jobs, including political jobs to handle things while they're there? Yes, Mr. Shido, thank you very much for this quite difficult question and one of the most important questions to my country and my region at this moment. I weren't talking about all the people that probably I don't know or don't understand. I will speak about me by myself, what I've seen for these long months and long days. For example, when the war just begins, me like a person who are working for two years like a lawyer and speaking with a lot of people, of course, I have been working for a tourney at law and someday I will dream about that, become a tourney at law. I have faced one big problem that the population of Ukraine is divided between two camps. One camp is supporting Russia completely. The other camp is supporting two European Ukraine, if you understand what they're talking about. Yes, and this I think the biggest problem of my country and population in my country will become into the monster, because when the war begins, we can see that this war will not stop, will not stop in the closest future, in the one, two, three, five years maybe, because one people completely, after the Soviet Union collapsed, following the idea for reuniting all post-Soviet Union countries into the one. So this is the problem. The problem is that these people don't completely understand what does it mean to have nationality? What does it mean to have a citizenship of one European country? They don't understand what is that, to don't live in the Soviet Union, to don't live in the post-Soviet Union country, to live in the prosperity country, to live in the intelligent country with the intelligent people who completely understand their rights, their route, their path in this life. And through their child, how can I say it's correctly forming a new nationality, forming a new people that will, that sometimes will going through the stars and colonize the Mars, if it can be like a joke, okay. Yes, but yes, yes, this is the main problem. And when the war begins, these people mostly going to the administration of new Russian governments on the occupied zones like Kherson or Zaporizhia. And let's come back to, let's come back to, for example, 2014, when the war on Donbass had begun. There was the similar situation completely. If people didn't support Russian government, this war will not come in. This war will not start, but they're supporting them. I have read a couple of days ago about the statistic, old statistic in the Lugansk and Donetsk Oblast. When they're declared their independence, there was one interesting statistic about the supporting of government in their own circles and territories. And it says that more of 83% of people supporting this case, supporting this government, supporting this independence, independence. But I actually, I'm like a lawyer, don't think that this is independence. For example, my country going through the hard times since 1991, when we declare our independence and making new constitutions for everyone of Ukrainians and it still works. And the constitution is the main thing in our law system, but people don't understand that. Russians don't understand that. And the most awful thing that people in my country who supporting Russian don't understand it, that the constitution is the one of, not one, it's the only one, only one thing that have a sense, only one thing that have a sense in the legal system in my country. So yes, yes, some kind like that, some kind like that. And the awful thing mostly is that these people that these people that supporting Russians is the most unintelligent people, un-prosperity people because they don't even know about the political system, about the legal system that have in their Russia, for example, but mostly in the post-Soviet Union countries. And yes, I think that the one, let's make the conclusion about all of that. I think that one biggest problem in my country, the one biggest problem in the post-Soviet Union country that always take these countries in the war, it's post-Soviet un-prosperity from our parents, from our grand-mum, grand-pa, and that's right. And maybe Mr. Fidel in some ways, you will not understand me, but I live with people like that. I mean, I love my family, but sometimes I hear the things that actually I don't like. I mean, so strange things that sometimes that sometimes they call it paradox, paradox because you have the thing that physically is half, that physically is is, some kind of that, yes, but they don't understand it. They don't understand it because maybe we've not so much level of intellect at the surah, but I don't. Yeah, well, I mean, Ukraine and Russia, they've had a border that has moved in the past couple of hundred years. It's moved so many times. Ukraine, you know, has had part of Russia in it. Russia has had part of Ukraine in it. It's a movable border is what it is. And of course, people speak Russian near that border. And it's, you know, it's got a tremendous history. My family is from Kiev. And we thought for a long time that was in Russia, but it isn't in Russia. It's in Ukraine. See how the border has moved. So, you know, as a result, you get a certain amount of political confusion. And of course, you know, the Russian government likes to confuse people. Vladimir Putin, you know, he has a way of confusing everybody. And I imagine that what happens when he takes over a village, a town, an area, he is going to try to make those people his. He's gonna try to make the whole Donbass his, which is what he's been doing there for the next, but the last six months. But you know, one thing I wanted to read with part of the description of our show. So we have the need for transitional justice. And it's a challenge. And the question is beyond just atrocities, beyond just war crimes, we need to look at the citizens of Ukraine who have taken part in Putin's reorganization of the Donbass, reorganization of those areas that he has occupied, employees of the governmental administrations in those areas, utility workers, the people who do public relations and propagandists on the part of the Russians, the entrepreneurs who work in the occupied territories and the people who maybe finance terrorism or atrocities with their taxes. So it gets very complicated. And the word I mentioned before the show that comes to mind is collaborators. These people do know the difference between Ukraine and Russia. And they know they're helping Russia against Ukraine. And if you're gonna look at atrocities, you have to look at the whole system that supports the atrocities, which is I guess what makes this discussion so important because we're looking at all the people who are collaborating with Putin, who are part of Putin's occupation government, occupation industry, occupation utilities and trying to figure out what we think of them and what we're gonna do with them. So I put this to you. You are engaged on behalf of Project Expedite Justice in investigating atrocities and war crimes and violations of human rights. What do you think of the people, Ukrainian people who have lived in Dumbass for generations, many generations? What do you think of the ones who are helping Putin establish his occupation government? Are they collaborators? Are they people who have to be held accountable? Yes, thank you very much, Mr. Fido, for your words. Yes, of course, with people who are doing some kind of war crimes, who are doing something that completely shorts other people. If you, for example, are collaborating men who's working in administration and helping the Russian to killing Ukrainians, of course, you have your own responsibility, but we need to prove this responsibility. We need to prove what you have done. Not all the people that living in Dumbass, not all the people that living in Kherson Oblast or Zaporizhia Oblast, not all of them is criminals. Not all of them is doing something, just several people that works on the Russian government. That's all. And we are looking for these people. We are looking for these people to reach a justice, some kind of that, just if it's possible in our world, if it's possible in my country. And I think it's maximally important. But the problem, as you said to me before, about the people who living in the Dumbass for generations and supporting Russians, the problem is that these people don't understand their nationality. They think that they are Russians. They're living there for generations. It means since Soviet Union, for the more than 80 years in the Soviet Union, they're listening their TV, they're listening their, you know, their Stalin, for example, Stalin, Stalin, Stalin again and again and again. It's a propaganda hill that always, always, like a tank, like a tank going through the people. And actually, I don't think that they're criminals. I think that my government, my country, and the people like me, should contact with them, should speak with them, and try to change their, try to change their mind, firstly, because without that, this war will be continuous. And it's not about the Putin war. It's about the country's war, the people's war, when Ukrainians don't understand their nationality. They think that we are still living in the Soviet Union, but we are living in the country with like civil war, you know, yes, and someone, someone, some days, will reunite us to one biggest communist country and go into the bright future. But it's impossible. It's impossible because this time is a long, long, in a long, long past. Yeah, that's clear. It's going to be a long war, sadly. And I think that part of Vladimir Putin's strategy to make it a long war and to, you know, work on these occupied, occupied areas. So, but it raises two questions for me. You know, one is, how do you, how do you distinguish between those people, those Ukrainians, who are serving the Russian occupation governments? How do you distinguish between the ones who you would seek accountability from and the ones you would not seek accountability from? What's the, what's the line? What's the dividing point? Your actions is the firstly, your actions and your, your worldwide. I mean, I think I think in score is correct, yes, for me. If, in my life actually, when I, I have, I have a lot of friends till, till sometimes in my life. Yes, I have, I have really, really a lot of friends. But for example, if your friend doing something that you don't supporting, do it something that can hurt you or can make you some kind of the second in his life and at this era, I think, I think you understand me. This ruins everything. And this is the line, for example, for the collaborations, for the people who support Russians, for the people who don't support Russians, if only your actions, only your actions can show who you are, can show what, what you think, what you do and what future you, you want to build. If you want to build the future on the ashes, like a game of thrones in the last season, okay, it's your case, but you're the criminal. You're destroying this world. You're destroying my world. You're destroying my family. This is the line, the line between, between your actions and your worldwide. Even, even, even if you thinking that most of the Ukrainians need to die, it's the criminal too, it's the criminal too, but criminal only for you at this side. But when you're doing the actions and helping to innovators, to killing my friends and my family, so you are the criminal and someday justice will prevail. So would you treat them the same as, say, a Russian soldier, a Russian officer, a Russian who, you know, shot weapons into Ukraine, destroyed Ukraine cities and homes and infrastructure? Are they accountable in the same way? I will, I will make an example. A couple, not a couple, two weeks ago. Actually, when the, when the war starts, starts day, this comes to my city only after one week of war. Yes, and my city was Russian troops. You said, tell us the name of your city. The name of my city is Wuzhnitsynsk. It's the, it's the Mikolai of all, most all in the Mikolai region. I think for American people, it's more correct. Yes, the war comes to my city in the first week of war. I completely remember this day because I was involved with my family. This was one of my things that I need to stay with my family at these days. Yes, they come to this city, but only for two or three days. They was, they was completely destroyed. They was completely, it was, it was one of their army, one of the biggest troops. Yes, but when, when they comes here, I have faced after, after this, these two, three days, maybe after one or two weeks, when I speak with people who have, like, war medic in my, in my country, this, this woman have explained me a lot of interesting things. One of these things is that more than 300 young men's that comes to our, our army, I mean, like, like recruiters, they have died. They have died at the first day when these troops comes to my city. It was on the gas station, like in the, in the starts of my city, there is the gas station. And then after 200 meters is the bridge. And Russian troops wanted to take this bridge and go through, go through to the city center. But these 300 people goes to this gas station staying there. And now, and after the enemy's tank comes, comes to this gas station, they all was dead, after that. Yes. And after that, our professional army have no how much, how much Russian troops come here and kill them all. Mr. Fido, in, in this, in this way, I want to explain you why it had, why young, why my, exactly my government, my military forces in my country take these young men's 300 of young men's to this gas station and make them some kind of, some kind of cannon meat, you know. Everyone in my country is speaking about that. So I think that transitional justice should be implemented in the two ways. In the ways for the people who are invading in this country and the people who protect the key in this country. Because every time when the war starts, civilians always dying, civilians always dying. It's the one thing, the main thing of war. But when it comes, especially when the army take these people, especially on the debt, I don't know. It's horrible actually. Yes. It's the war crime. It's the war crime from both sides, from both sides. Yes. And actually, yes, I, I have started from, from another thing just one week ago. There is a rocket, there is a Russian missiles comes to the residential building in my city. And I have seen this building. I seen this every day, every morning when it comes to a job, especially today, after one and a half hour, I will go into my job and I will see this building again. There was, there was seven children that was hearts. More than two or three families, I don't remember that have lost their houses, their lost their residential. Yes. And it's awful. It's awful because it was only one rocket, one rocket that comes from my city. And yes, every day, every day, actually, we walk in up with this, with the feeling that something will happen, something will happen and this day will happen with you especially. But for the long time, it's, this feeling is going deeper, deeper, deeper. And you will, you will not pay attention on that in some days. But when, when happened something like this, it's completely going up and remind you that I'm real, the fear is real and the war will not end tomorrow. You know, another example I would like to discuss with you is the nuclear power plant. It's a part of the write-up of the show by Project Expedited Justice that talks about utility workers. And I wonder if you can tell us what the situation is in that pastries, I can't pronounce it properly, but in the nuclear power plant, which is not too far away, I guess, and the nuclear power plant is being operated by Ukrainian operators, but under the control of the Russian. So are the Ukrainian operators, in your view, are they assisting, supporting the Russians? Do you look to them for accountability? Because after all, they're working for the Russians, aren't they? You mean the Zaporizhia Oblast? Yes. The Zaporizhia nuclear plant. Yes, I will tell you, I will tell you the short story that my friend, he's in the army now in the, exactly in the Zaporizhia Oblast, exactly in the face of this nuclear plant. He said that Russian troops dislocated in this plant, dislocated exactly on the territory of this plant, and they're lauching their rockets from this plant on their position, or position of my friend, his colleagues at the sera, yes. It's the fat situation, because they cannot bombing this plant because of the nuclear dangers, and they wanted to capture that by themselves, I mean, without any vehicles, without any tanks, without any rockets, and it's quite difficult because a lot of young men is dying because of that. Yes, actually, I'm not sure, I'm not sure that this some kind of war crime, I'm like a lawyer, cannot in my Ukrainian legislation classify it like a war crime, but I think the war crime, when they are lauching these rockets of this nuclear plant to the civilian objects, I think this is the war crime, and we can classify that. But not even like a tendention of war, like a tradition of war. If we will see in the past, some kind of in the Second World War, we will be able to see the same. The Germans, the Americans, the Soviet Union soldiers, they always captured the main objects and doing the same thing every time, but not in the civilians. Not shooting in the civilians and lauching rockets in the civilians. You know, one thing you mentioned, Vlad, early on in this discussion, was that people in Donbass, who are supporting the Russians, working in their governments, working in their businesses, effectively helping the Russians, don't understand. They haven't had the education, the training. They don't understand exactly what Ukraine is, the national identity of Ukraine, and so forth. And I suppose they're getting a lot of Russian TV, because that's what Vladimir Putin would like. He wants to put TV all over them every day, 24 hours a day. And you mentioned that one solution here, one important thing to do, is to counter that propaganda and to talk to them and teach them and show them that Ukraine does have a national identity, and they would be better off being part of the independent country of Ukraine, clarifying for them. So the question is, have you been able to do that? Has anyone been able to do that? How would you do it? How would you counter veil? How would you counteract Vladimir Putin's 24-hour TV in order to teach people what the real stakes are? Thank you, Mr. Fiddle. Yes, you touched the most painful thing, actually, for me, because I'm hearing this, hearing this propaganda through my walls in my house every day. Yes, through my walls in my house every day. It's really a big problem, actually, because their propaganda works really, really cool, really, really good. They know what, in what points they need to push. They know in what ways they need to share, they need to go. It's the professionalism for me, actually. It's since Joseph Gabels in the Second World War is the genius, is the genius. Because they know how to manipulate people who remember in their minds about the Second World War, about including people who have the heroes of this war, who have the people who come from Stalingrad barely. And this is the most awful thing. They're using their propaganda to manipulate these people, the children of these heroes to supporting their only power, to supporting power, to make it more stronger. And this problem, it's not only for Ukraine, it's in Russian, including. Most of Russians growing up in this society, growing up with these people, and these people, their parents, their great-grandpa, don't understand that. They don't understand when they so much speak about this heroism of their ancestors, about this heroism in this war, that making it not special, not... For example, for me, I have my own hero, my grand-grandpa, he was a hero of the Second World War. He comes through Stalingrad, he comes through Kiev, he comes through Germany, and stopped in the Byzantine Republic in that moment that were still occupied by Germans' forces. Yes, and actually, when my grandma asked him about what happened there, asked him about the war, he always gone silent. He didn't speak about that. When he looking on the statues or something like that, he's always silenced it. He don't do this like some kind of show, like some kind of everyone don't need to remember, but everyone should kneel on that, should kneel on these things. No, we need to remember these heroes, we need to remember this great war that completely destroyed the whole world with so many victims. But Russia propaganda takes this thing, makes it maximally ridiculous and like a poor and bad food, giving these people and these people tasty. And this all because of Ukrainian government, exactly Ukrainian propaganda doesn't work well. That's a big difference between the Ukrainians and the Russians. So you have neighbors and you can hear them through the walls, you can hear them listening to Russian TV, and it's hard to be friends with somebody who is buying into big lie. So the question is, what do you do, Vlad? Do you knock on their door and say hello and try to convince them? Do you unfriend them, do you not talk to them again? What do you do with them? No, Mr. Shidl, if I will be unfriend to them, if I will be some kind of enemy for them, I will became the same, usually a citizen of Russia. So it's not correct, it's not the way. If you have faced the problem, you need to solve it. You cannot change everybody, you cannot change your whole residential building, it's impossible. This is what government should do, maximally should do. Of course, it's everyone of us, everyone of us have influence on that. Everyone of us have influence on their home, on their house, and the street near this house, but it's not at all. When I switched on the Ukrainian TV, I have always been looking at the same things, about the heroes, about some kind of... We have destroyed the monuments in the Lviv city, we have destroyed the monuments of communists in some kind of Zaporizhia, but it's not the way. Look at the Russians. They always telling about creating new monuments, about speaking something like that. Yes, and the people in Ukraine supporting them because of that. This is the point of pressure. This is the point of pressure for our people, but our government don't understand that. I think the government understands that, but the propaganda machine is not. So, yes, I think Mr. Shidl, that if our government will change the course of propaganda, of this propaganda, start to minimally telling the truth, but maximally telling about these points of pressure to these people, these people will change their minds. Just imagine that. You hate most of this country, I mean the population, because they're destroying the monuments of heroes of Second World War. And just imagine if we were not doing that. We will not doing that. And speaking about that, we have created new monuments. We have created the monuments for Ukrainian heroes. We have, we creating the monuments for your heroes. So just support us. Why you want to go to other country? Long live Ukraine. Glory to Ukraine. Thank you very much. Glory to Ukraine. Thank you so much for watching Think Tech Hawaii. If you like what we do, please like us and click the subscribe button on YouTube and the follow button on Vimeo. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and LinkedIn, and donate to us at thinktechhawaii.com. Mahalo.