 Brad welcome back to the show the new book I'm trying to put it in the camera here is a master of change And this is your book and take on acceptance commitment therapy, which AJ and I are huge fans of This is the second time you've been on the show the last time you were here. We were speaking about grounding it was a very popular episode and Certainly to get grounded is incredibly important. So to kick things off today What brought your interest to act and putting this book together and how's it relate to the work you've done with grounded? What brought my interest into this topic is Just living life. I think that I wrote this book for myself as much as anyone in The past five years. I've been through so many changes I became a father for the first time and then for the second time. I had major orthopedic surgery I'm at leg that took me out of a sport that had been a pretty significant part of my identity for essentially my life I moved across the country I Decided that I finally wanted to go on my own as a full-time writer and kind of ditched all of my corporate contracts I became really painfully estranged from specific family members. I I Is you know from the last episode I suffered a really dark depression related to OCD and then I recovered from that So like who was I before who was I during who was I then I mean just all of these changes and Discussing this with Friends colleagues family members. I realized that it's not just me I think it's just being a a human and kind of Entering into middle adulthood that the pace of change really picks up and then of course societally We were all undergoing an enormous change together Which was a once in a generation pandemic and I distinctly remember the day that I had the idea To write a book on this topic So I was wrestling with all these changes in my own life And I saw back-to-back headlines one in the New York Times and one in the Wall Street Journal So left and right equally guilty and they both talked about how pretty soon we're gonna get back to normal And I just remember that striking me the wrong way like back to normal, right exactly It like what are you talking about back to normal? And it's at that point when I said alright I've been wrestling with this idea personally clearly the way it's being spoken about in society is I think backwards So let's see let's go on a little intellectual exploration and see if there's not a there there for a book your first question about like how this relates to groundedness is I think like the practice of groundedness is really a book about laying the foundation for stability and Then this book says great you did that but change is still always gonna happen And you better learn how to dance with it, you know our body craves homeostasis Every chemical reaction in your body is craving an equilibrium What struck me in your explanation of the various changes you were going through is that some of those changes were by choice And some of those changes you had zero agency in so what does the science say around change? That's forced on us versus change that we actually have some agency in the science says that once that change is made The body really doesn't differentiate too much and this is true for positive and negative changes too So something as joyful as getting married can lead to just as much like allostatic load or change stress is getting divorced So to the body change is just change now That's not to say that all changes are created equal getting into a tragic accident suffering capital T trauma That's a lot worse and a lot harder to reconcile with than a more minor change like you know breaking a bone or getting the flu But I think that's a good point because people assume that like oh well, you know This was a voluntary change and it was positive. So therefore it'll be easy, but that still disrupts stability The research shows that the average adult experience is over 35 major life changes Now all those aren't negative many of those are positive, but it's a lot of change and with that change There's a few ways that the book is broken down I want to start first with mindset because some of these situations change is completely unexpected But if you're working on your mindset and anticipating that there's gonna be 35 major changes in my life I'm gonna be able to handle and embrace this change in a much better way So what do we look at from a mindset perspective now knowing that data that there's likely to be on average? 35 of these major changes, especially for those younger listeners who are like well, I haven't had it many changes yet There's still 30 on the horizon. So I think the two biggest prongs here are Acceptance so we have to accept that change is inherent to life and that we're going to face it And then it might be hard at times and then also to set appropriate expectations so to expect change and To update our expectations when things go differently Then we thought they would the first tool that I'll share comes from one of my favorite intellectual thinkers of all time Eric from Who was a humanist philosopher and psychoanalyst in the 1900s and in 1976? He wrote this book called to have or to be and he talked about having is Identifying with things that you own and those can be objects those can be Relationships those can even be attributes like I own a great jump shot or I own a good bench press Whereas being is identifying based on some more deeper essential core attributes of what make you who you are so things like creativity love compassion kindness and From argues that having makes you really fragile Because all of these things at some point are going to change and when they change you won't know who you are Whereas if we can orient around our being around these essential values that make us who they are those can't be taken away Even throughout change we can still lean on them So I think part and parcel of accepting change is to try to get out of this having orientation Into adopt a more being orientation toward ourselves. So when you define yourself, it's less, you know I am a writer. I am a dad. I am an athlete and it's more. I'm a caring person I value creativity. I value intellect and then the second important thing around updating expectations is this equation that has kind of become cliche, but it's based on years of science, which is Your mood at any given time is a function of your reality minus your expectations So if your expectations are better than your reality, your mood is going to be negative and How this relates to change is that oftentimes we're going a long life and we're expecting X to happen and then Y happens and The longer it takes us to update our view of reality and to update our expectations the more we suffer and the less happy we are So really important to both accept change expect It's going to happen and then when it does update our thinking and the story that makes this I think from concept to very real is I want to take everyone back to the early part of the COVID pandemic and When COVID first came on it was absolutely terrible death despair suffering Anxiety and then we slowly but surely started to have some tools at our disposal So we figured out certain therapeutic models that could help treat the disease Vaccines came online Protocols in the ICU made survival more likely and then we reached a period in the summer of 2021 Where COVID essentially went to zero in most places and I distinctly remember this my three and a half year old Then went into his friend's house and it was the first time in his living memory He could go inside someone's house. He's like we can this is the coolest thing ever and That was like the greatest summer because we were expecting it to be terrible And then COVID like very quickly declined But then the Delta variant came and that was a fucking gut punch And I distinctly remember myself and so many other people almost being more frustrated and more upset by the Delta variant Then we were at the start of the pandemic Even though objectively things were much better off like we had tools. We had more knowledge But what happened was our expectations were all this is over and then it was back and the longer It took people to adapt and the same is true for companies and companies and organizations to adapt the more of it They unnecessarily suffered so you made a point earlier that I want to touch on and do a little bit of a mental exercise around because that Have versus be even in your example. It was a subtle shift So you mentioned like have a child be a father I have a great jump shot you start speaking about attributes or things that you really value and then being You can dig a level deeper into your haves to find the being So if right now you're resting on your haves. I have this great house. I have these accomplishments Well, what about you allowed you to buy that house to reach that level of success? Was it you being an intellectual? Was it you being caring or a giver or compassionate? So I think right now for our audience members if you find yourself Overindexing on have that's not necessarily a bad thing But it's looking past it going a level deeper to your being that can actually help you overcome the change in Potentially losing that job losing that house or having to Reroot your entire life move cross-country find new friends find new people to care for if at a base level You're a caring person Losing your friends losing your family member having tragedy happen to you You're gonna be able to weather a lot more easily than someone who's so tied to having those attributes or having those physical items I just want to add to that as well And I think that's an important distinction that everyone should should look into it in our world of social media It's all about it's never about why I have these things It's you all need to know that I have these things so that you all know that I'm awesome and As AJ mentioned well all of that that can all change in an instant And there is a reason of who you are that afforded you to be able to get those things in your life And in there lies skills and attributes that I think people would be very interested in learning about Which is your your real value to who you are rather than the car or the house or The vacations that you've been on. Yeah, and I think that often times The more that you're attached to the thing so the car or the house The more the real value is like being seen and loved Because we look for love in all the wrong places and like it's never about the car the house it's about like wanting to be known and wanting to be loved and I think owning that Is really important because then you can start to say like yeah like that I'm really after deep connection and anyone that spent too much time on Instagram knows this that eventually like the superficial candy starts to feel pretty empty But it's a trap that I fall into I'm sure you guys fall into like everyone falls into it today But I think as we get a little bit older and wiser we fall into it less often and for less Less less intensely you bring up a concept in the book rugged flexibility. I Haven't heard it in in this context before I've heard obviously the words But what do you mean by rugged flexibility? And what can we do as an audience member to start to build rugged flexibility into our life? So this is one of the core concepts in the book. I'm really glad that you've asked about this Most people hear the words ruggedness and flexibility and they think that they're complete opposites so to be rugged is to be strong durable robust maybe even rigid and to be flexible is to bend easily without breaking and Most people when confronted with change Go to one of these polar extremes. They either resist change. They deny it. They refuse to accept it They dig in and they say I'm going to be rugged and strong. This can't affect me and the other crowd is Maybe the Zen Buddhist monastery crowd says I'm just going to let go and I'm just going to completely go with the flow and wherever life Takes me it's meant to be and I think that there's a wide chasm in between those two approaches and Each of those approaches is most powerful when combined So to recognize that yes, we can't control everything and yes We do need to let go of control and it is really valuable to go with the flow But we also have agency in most almost every situation in our life So we shouldn't overindex and say you know pull yourself up by the bootstraps like personal responsibility You know you can do it because oftentimes the situation sucks But we also shouldn't say you have to be so flexible that we're hopeless So rugged flexibility is really about marrying like strength and agency and responsibility along with flexibility and letting go and accepting that sometimes you can't control everything and Navigating that navigating change requires rugged flexibility like it's not people are like do I need to be rugged or flexible? It's like yes, you need to be both Exactly and Johnny mentioned earlier acceptance commitment therapy your act which we've talked a lot about on the show this western Philosophical view around therapy, but you also marry a lot of Eastern philosophies in your research for this book And that duality comes up a lot in Eastern philosophy this idea that it's not black and white There's not only one way to approach the problem the change the frustration But actually oftentimes you have to hold two completely opposite Viewpoints in your hands and find the balance between the two to move forward I don't want to add to that as well Which is for our members in the X factor one of their commonalities between all of them is They've gotten to a point in their life where they're so successful in so many different areas But lacking in a certain area where they have goals to be set and for whatever reason those goals allude them yet they have seen flashes in their life of greatness in this realm of Relationship building social confidence where they've seen what they're capable of and They're leaning on that fact of I have seen it I know that it is in me And I'm not going to go to these polar sides either. I have it or I don't I'm going to be happily know that I've seen it I know it's with me and I'm and I'm able to to boost us and develop this it is that belief and being able to see That those facts which allows them to be successful within the X factor accelerator Yeah, it's non-dual thinking like to a tee right not this or that but this and that To AJ's point like modern philosophy or modern Psychological scientists would call this acceptance and commitment or maybe even cognitive behavioral therapy tenants But we see this in every wisdom tradition. So in Buddhism, there's the two arrows You can't control the first arrow, which is the random change But you can't control the second which is how you react in stoicism. It's the epictetus dichotomy of control Right like there are things that I can't control and there are things that I can focus on the latter In Christianity, it's the serenity player Grant me the the courage to accept the things I can't control and the power to change the things I can Bruce Springsteen says, you know being a mature adult is quoted in the book is Meeting the world on its own terms without losing hope that you can't make it a little bit better So, yeah, it's science. It's wisdom like of course It's both these things and yet people tend to fall into these complete polarities And I'm someone that like is an over-controller. So for a while I gravitated towards Buddhism and Taoism and these philosophies of letting go and they helped me a lot But I also like want to embrace some of that agency because the ability to problem-solving to fix things isn't all bad It's like it works as long as it's also married with an acceptance that that only takes you so far Now going along with mindset there is an identity piece to this and oftentimes change is really difficult because it requires us to Lose an identity that we feel really comfortable in or to realize that maybe we aren't this identity that we've been holding on to and Some of the changes you started as an example on the show over there was an identity shift for you Losing a big part of your physical identity around the sport that you love through an injury Well, that can be soul-crushing. We see that with a lot of professional athletes who their entire life They've worked on this one craft this one physical attribute that's allowed them to have this amazing career But professional athletes careers are pretty short and an injury can wash all of that away and your identity if it's built solely on that Well, it's not gonna allow you to embrace change So how can we build an identity that? Embraces change or how do we have to hold or view identity to be able to handle the change that is coming? This is the favorite part of the book for me. So this is my favorite part of the book in proper English I Just loved what I learned in researching this because it's a mental model that makes so much sense and is so useful so There are two important components to an identity that is resilient to change The first is what researchers call self complexity and what I call diversifying your sense of self So I like to think of identity as a house with multiple rooms You can have the athlete room the parent room the friend room the creative room the musician room The chef room the neighbor room however many rooms you want and it's okay to spend a few years Even focused predominantly in one room, but you got to have those other rooms available Because when things change in the basement you want to be able to go up to the kitchen So when I have an article or God forbid a book that flops if that's my only room is as a writer I'm screwed, but if I got the dad room or the athlete room I can lean into Parenting I can lean into my progress in powerlifting when I get injured at the gym if I've got the writer room I can lean in there so Diversifying your sense of self by having multiple components to your identity you don't need to be quote-unquote balanced You don't have to do them all equally all the time, but you should never just have one component of your identity So that's the first thing the second thing is that over time as you change is things change It's kind of like ourself is a river. That's the metaphor. I like to use so like we're flowing We're always changing but without a bank on each side or rivers just random water and it's back to those values I think the banks of our river are our core values So if we have our core values how we apply them over time will be very flexible, you know If your core value is like Movement maybe when you're a kid. It's just playing then maybe you're a competitive athlete Then maybe it's Tai Chi then maybe it's walking but like that core value is still there to guide you as you evolve So diversify your identity have these multiple rooms and then have these core values that as you flow over time as your Identity is your process of becoming unfolds your core values are what's gonna channel that in in a direction that makes narrative sense Now those core values topic we've talked a lot about on the show But whenever it comes up our audience members feel a bit overwhelmed We have a lot of perfectionists in the audience and you have a list in the appendix of core values and oftentimes They all sound great. We want every single one of them to be a core value Who doesn't want to value movement and compassion and kindness and intellectual and all of a sudden you? overwhelm yourself with this Identity this core value plate that you can't possibly have enough rooms in the house for so How do you actually whittle it down to understand what are those core values that really matter from a list that looks Amazing and who wouldn't want all of those core values. It's hard It's the hardest part of the acceptance and commitment process. I think is is doing just that But if everything's important then nothing's important. It's very cliche, but I think it's true So I think a forcing mechanism of getting to three to five core values is actually really important And it's not to say that others don't matter and that you don't want to be all 100 But it's to say like these are the three to five hills I'm gonna die on or like when there's a real big change this is kind of my menu of options for how to respond to that big change and a couple of ways one is to think about people in your life that you really admire in Of the 30 that you're wrestling with ask like what five Do you really admire them for because those are the five that you probably value the most? Another way to do it is to imagine yourself Older wiser version of you down the road looking back on current you and what do you want older wiser you to remember yourself for? And then a final way that appears in a lot of acceptance and commitment therapy manuals is this notion of like what's going to be on your gravestone and You can't fit all 100 so it's hard I'm not saying it's easy to whittle down and it's not that you don't care about all these wonderful core values But it's about saying like what are what are the ones that are really essential and when I go through this exercise with people? most people can tend to get it to like 15 to 20 and That doesn't take much time But the process of getting it from 15 to 20 to three to five that can take like two months and it's wrestling with things It's combining things. It's kind of figuring out like I like sport movement Health and well-being and these are all kind of related. So like what's the overarching thing there? And maybe it's vitality. Maybe it's completely different than tennis, you know, you end up you start with like sport and you end up with vitality But I think just kind of wrestling with these and asking like being versus having what's the underlying thing here? And then getting it down to three to five and then for each of those as we talk about is it's so important to like really define them Because everyone's probably worked for a company with like core values on the wall But that's it like they're on a pretty poster and no one actually practices them So these are only useful if you know what they mean and you're able to call on them in day-to-day life And then in that change to channel them as a way forward So a lot of the change that is discussed Isn't of your control or isn't of your agency. So yes, there might be a time where you go You know what LA's for me I'm gonna move to LA and I'm gonna chase this dream and I'm gonna get on a plane But there might be times where your career says hey, there's no more work for you here in New York We need to move you to Miami and all of a sudden this change is forced upon you and in that You need to bring those core values to the forefront and say, okay How can I act in these core values on a daily basis to find my homeostasis in this new location? To really ground myself in who I am in a completely new environment meeting new people and potentially making new friends and getting closer with colleagues and performing at my best if You don't have those core values or if you have a list of 50 Well that change is going to be very difficult for you to reorient yourself in that new environment Exactly I couldn't have said it better myself your core values are your sources of stability Like that's your ruggedness and you can take them with you pretty much wherever you go How you practice them will look very different But the actual values themselves they can always guide your actions and generally speaking If we're acting in alignment with our values what we're going through doesn't get easier But we tend to feel a little bit better than if it's just total chaos And this is the the the point that we tried to make with all of our x-factor members Which is if you get these core values correct When you engage in them your whole life is going to change for the better You're gonna feel that much better because you're actually Engaged in the things that are important to you and if it's done right they're also tied towards a goal So by engaging in these core values every day You're getting closer to your goal through the what is important to you so you wake up excited And so we tell our of our members don't worry about nailing this today as we discuss this Get get your three together and then we'll work in the next few weeks to see and round out what those other two might be because these are gonna have a significant impact on how how you go about today and then how you see the world through engaging in these core values and then lastly The what you said about why these need to be protected is so important And there's so much in this world that air is on the side of take it easy You need to relax. You can't you need to just go with the flow Well, unfortunately when it comes to these core values if you do if you have that mindset Towards these core values. Well, then they're not guiding anything. Are they they're they're You're still just twisting in the wind These are gonna be your rudder to get you to where you want to go Why it is so important that you learn how to build Boundaries around them and that and adhere to them. That's right. You guys are both just like preaching and I'm here for it I think that you know the way that I like to think about it is like it's okay to be super rigid on your core values And then be flexible on everything else. Yep, and 100% you look at like evolution You know change on the grandest scale. There is and the species that survive They do just that like the attributes that they don't change are the attributes that make them who they are because if they lost those They would no longer be who they are, but then you like you better believe they change everything else So they are like completely non-dual Super rugged on the core values and then flexible everywhere else and for listeners It sounds like you do a lot of this good work in the X factor But in case people aren't a part of that or are new to this it also doesn't have to be that complicated You know a value of creativity might just mean 45 minutes of deep-focus work on a creative project today It's amazing what 45 minutes of deep-focus work on a creative project will do for a creative person that doesn't have that Presence might just mean putting your phone away between 6 and 8 p.m Even if it's so hard to do to be there for your friends your spouse your kids if you have them Movement or health could just be 30 minute walk four days a week So like the the changes themselves are often small and simple and the effects truly are Transformational and that's why the core value alignment is so important because then it doesn't feel like effort You don't have to muster your willpower if you truly value presence If it's something that is a core value and is a guiding principle that you rigid on then you're not gonna have to Muster your willpower every day to turn off your phone for an hour You're gonna recognize that as a core value That's how you want to show up for the people in your life and turning off that phone It's gonna get easier and easier and it's gonna go from an hour to two hours So maybe it'll be on airplane mode for four hours, and you'll have that deep space to then be creative You bring up a great point when you hold all 50 core values rigid. You can't act on any of them So how do these core values are in opposition and all of a sudden that's why you're feeling stuck That's why you're feeling unmotivated or that life may be meaningless because you haven't really wrestled with the tougher question of like Who am I at an identity level? What rooms do I want to decorate? Do I want to lean into in my house and what things really aren't that important that? I don't need to get flustered about because the media is telling me to or social media is or my friends are Pressuring me to when you actually understand your core values at a deep level It allows you to move forward in a much faster way than those around you who are Overwhelmed with all the different pressures that life throws at you and it makes you so much more rugged throughout change because Change is still hard But it's a little bit less scary because you got your body armor on and your or your identity armor Let's call it and those are just your core values And then the natural question that some listeners might be thinking is well Can your core values change and the answer is of course? But even so it's your current core values and you're practicing your current core values that take you to your new ones So they really do guard your evolution that I think that's the purpose of core values again Like you know identity is a river like you're constantly flowing. You're changing its fluid These core values are what's guiding it and if they guide you to a new tributary and the core values change That's great now part of this you mentioned earlier is this idea that when expectations don't meet reality there is suffering and Unfortunately, our brain is constantly creating expectations it's a predictive model of the world around us and it's taking in past information and experiences and then it's shooting out this prediction and If that prediction lingers or we're Continuing to hold on to it. Well, we're gonna create immense suffering So how can we quickly evolve and update these expectations to manage the change when it's not meeting our expectations? So for example, some members of our audience will hear the show and be like, you know what? I'm moving to a new city and then they'll write us six months later and they're like man Making friends in a new city is so much more challenging than I thought I thought just changing my environment Would naturally open up this new tribe of people and my dating life would be better because it wasn't good in my old environment Again, their expectations Created this reality that now they're wrestling with and they haven't been able to update and evolve that model and their prediction And it's creating suffering. That's right so I think the first thing is to try to lessen expectations and This isn't to say commit to mediocrity or have low expectations. I don't think that's a good recipe for a meaningful life But it's to lessen the importance that you place on expectations So to be more willing to adjust and adapt them and to ask yourself Like did I have an expectation that maybe was right a week ago, but now something changed and it's different And if the answer is yes, I mean this is this is about just like letting go of that old expectation is Gracefully as possible Knowing that even though it can hurt to let go of these expectations It's actually the pathway to to being able to take productive action and to deal with the situation that is That's in front of you But it's this is this is a very challenging thing to do because our brains spend a lot of time thinking about the future And building up expectations and like you said they are a prediction machine and when those predictions aren't true It can be disorienting. It's like order disorder reorder. I think a part of disorder is expectations not being met But I think this is one of those mental ninja moves that you can pull is just knowing this like naming it Can help so much getting to a situation and being like oh the reason this is so hard is I didn't expect This was going to be the case But here it is so I need to stop living as if my expectation were true and start meeting my reality Exactly how it is how it is in front of me. What can you control? That's not meeting this expectation Right, so a lot of time what you can't control from what you can and then and then working on what you can exactly Exactly, you know through through the journaling exercise of okay Well, my expectation was I was gonna land in LA and I was gonna go to a meet-up group And naturally I'd have two best friends and I'd have a social group and I'd be dating new people within a month Okay, well, I went to the meet-up group. I didn't meet anyone. I didn't meet the expectation Well, then what's under my control going to the next meet-up group? What's under my control texting the person that I met at the meet-up group instead of waiting for them to ask me out To launch or invite me to something me taking control and moving things forward So oftentimes when our expectations don't meet reality, it's your job then to sort through well What can I control to move me closer to that expectation if that expectation is really important to me? Yeah, I like how you said that a lot this gets back again to like rugged flexibility So it's not giving up in nihilism and despair Because that's not useful, but it's also not you know judging yourself and being like well I should have been able to completely contrive this move to LA and everything should have gone perfect because that's how I envisioned it It's a middle ground like hey, this isn't this isn't feeling how I hoped it would and that's really hard and There's nothing I can do to fix this overnight But here are some steps in my control that I can take having the expectation, but they might not work the first second third time It might take four or five times. I think this is especially true with friendship and intimate partnerships We don't realize how often Putting yourself out there and meeting people They're just not going to be the right fit for the people that you want to hang out with whether again Whether this is an intimate context or a friendship context and that's just like a cost of finding someone that is Like someone that you want to hang out with so often times like making making friendships Forget intimacy making friendships requires like a lot of work in false starts and inconvenience and Then you find a group or a person that's like odd like these are my people and then it's all worth it I want to also go over the rationalizations that come with that as well that we have to Identify when when we're doing that so for the guy who maybe is who wants to be dating But he's not going out to create any options and then against everything that he's been told his whole life The girl in the office starts to look very attractive and then he starts to think oh, maybe I should be asking out The girl in the office and then we get an email going. Hey, there's this girl at work And I really like how do I go about doing that we have to go through this whole thing again of why are you doing that? Are you creating other options in your life? If not you need to be so that doesn't happen because of the way we are wired and our biology If you don't create options options will be created for you Now this also goes to play of moving someone into a new place And as AJ mentioned well, I'm gonna go to the meet-up group And I hope I meet somebody cool And then I'll have a new best friend and I won't be so lonely here And as you mentioned not everyone you meet is going to be worth your time And again you have to be creating options and then have the ability to showcase Your value and and any social setting where people take interest and curiosity Who you are and once those expectations are being set up and you begin to realize what it takes to meet to To meet your own expectations let alone other people's there and lies gaps that you are able to fill to show people without telling them of Your value which allows them to take that much more interest and curiosity and get and wanting to get to know You and friend and befriend you something that came up a lot of my reporting is That friendship is a big part of like the change that disorients us So we grow apart from friends. We have fallouts with friends We simply just like move geographies and grow apart sometimes. It's really hot and messy sometimes. It's cold We make new friends We make new really close friends, and then it's like ooh is my best friend no longer Jim from undergraduate school In we often define ourselves especially if we're a more extroverted person by our friends So when our friend shift how we conceive of ourselves shifts, so I'm glad that we're spending some time here because I think this notion of like Social circles and friendship then of course intimate partnership too But but friendship especially because I think people tend to have more comings and goings with intimate friends and intimate partners And it's a big source of change in our life Well, I think a lot of Western culture celebrates this idea of best friends for life I mean the hit show friends this idea that you know you should never lose friends and If you meet someone in college and they're your roommate and because of proximity you share a time and space in your life together Then they should carry on through your 80s as a friend in your life And then unfortunately that view you know leads people to feel very lonely and isolated when those friendships don't work out And oftentimes they'll find us and say hey I need some help in my social life I need some help even finding romantic partners because I didn't realize that the person that I was a friend with was gonna change And I didn't realize that I was gonna change I had sort of hoped we'd both march through life in lockstep together sharing the same views Sharing the same values even though we never really had that conversation We were having a couple beers in our dorm room together So it can be very jarring and disorienting and we've talked a lot about external change and change that's happening to us But the relationship component I think Especially when you look at the failure rate of marriage in the US change is just not expected We're not ready for it and when it happens to us it often leads to the demise of the relationship And there's not enough Flexibility on how we view other people's change around us and there tends to be this rigidness of like well I have to cut him out of my life. I have to break that friendship I have to break up with my friend or I have to go through divorce when in actuality They have we had a healthier flexibility around people changing around us while we're changing We could actually strengthen our relationships and the Harvard happiness study Shows that the quality of your relationships ultimately is the quality of your life more so than exercise Lifting weights what you eat. It really is those relationships in our lives So in your research around change What peace around relationships are you now viewing things differently? As you go through change in in your life. Oh, this is so good. So I think that Let's separate them into intimate relationships romantic relationships and then friendships. Yeah, so for intimate relationships I think the most important thing is to Think of the relationship is a holding space For the partnership for you as individuals if you have kids for the family unit to evolve and grow and That is so different than how you know my parents and like the baby boomers like control like, you know Make mom happy like the job of the relationship is to be I think and this is in that relationship therapist This is just my my theory out of researching this book is it's to be like an easy chair that like feels really comfortable to sit but to allow for a whole lot of flexibility and change and how you relate to your partner how you relate to your children how they relate to you how how The intimacy plays out but then also to have those kind of rugged core values that like make the relationship what it is So to have a few things like you know, I really love this person for these three things and therefore I'm going to be totally fine if they change in 19 other ways I want them to change in 19 other ways I think it's also really important not to feel like you need to change the exact same ways as your partner Because then you get into all kinds of a measurement and like, you know Resetment in in all this stuff like it's okay if your partner gets totally into Buddhism and goes to the Buddhist sangha without you You know not the end of the world as long as you have these underlying core values that bind you together a lot of listeners will take our core values Exercise earlier and say okay great now. I just need to find a partner that has those exact same core values And that's actually not what we're looking for right but what what is important is to recognize and respect Your partner's core values So a lot of the disagreements and the surface-level arguments if you actually take the lens of someone's core values and understand What the deeper motivations are for people these idiosyncrasies these These small things like leaving a dish in the sink or not taking the garbage out could actually be alleviated from arguments If you understood that well creativity is this core value and he's been strumming guitar working on this new Lick for the last two hours. That's why the garbage didn't go out. Okay. Now. I understand it I have more patience and I have more flexibility towards my partner's core values where they're rigid and vice versa and that's such a powerful exercise for couples and we talk about it with all of our clients if you have a partner understand your Own and then ask what theirs are and do the exercise together and you'll understand each other in a deeper way So you can be flexible in the moments that require flexibility and you can express Hey, this is an area that I'm rigid in because this is really a core value This is really meaningful to me and that's why that dish stayed in the sink and I didn't get to it Versus creating the surface-level arguments and disagreements that can tear us apart when we don't recognize our partner's core values That's right. So I almost included a chapter in the book on rugged flexibility for relationships I didn't because a lot of the tenants and relationships felt universal enough to the rest of the book but I did create some bonus material for people that pre-order the book and Regardless, if you pre-order or order it at all, like I'll send that to you to put in the show notes for your listeners So y'all can just have it. I hope people read the book because I think this is like a really important topic Which is just that like we got to take rugged flexibility and apply it to our relationships the other thing that you're getting to and I see this often with people that are chasing like perfection is That good enough over and over and over again is how you get to perfect So like expecting a partner to be perfect or like have this, you know, we look at the sunrise and we think the same thoughts And we listen to the same music like that is a very immature way to think about relationships because Everybody poops and whether they're gonna poop day one or year one like eventually like, you know it's not going to be all peaches and cream and I think people want a perfect relationship So they switch from perfect to perfect to perfect and the internet and online dating Gives you infinite possibilities to create the false expectation that perfect is out there when I've seen the happiest best relationships are People that are just good enough together, but after 30 years of being good enough the end result is perfect And I think man Western culture holds up perfection and it's just bullshit like it is a false expectation It's chasing the energizer bunny that's always ten yards ahead and the worst part about it is how do you handle yourself when things aren't perfect? If you're chasing perfect, you're not prepared for it What tells me more about how you're gonna be as a partner for me romantically is what happens when things don't go our way When we don't meet those expectations. Are you chastising the waiter? Are you screaming at the uber driver because we're late to the airport? Are you yelling at the ticket agent because they closed the doors to the plane and we didn't get on the trip? Or are you understanding that hey, you know there's a lot of things that were out of our control here and in that imperfect moment you can actually get closer with one another and I think so much of the chasing perfect partner, you know, I had a client ask Well, I have a list of questions These are 15 questions that I need to know their answers on because we if we align then we'll most likely get married I'm like that's a pretty high expectation man You do realize that the answers you had to those questions 10 years ago are different than they are now And oftentimes we don't realize how far we've come and we think when we look towards the future that change really isn't gonna happen We kind of feel like we're in this especially in adulthood like I'm in this finalized fixed state Like I've done all this work on myself all the self-development. I've been in coaching programs I'm pretty clear on who I am now and then you look backwards. You're like, well, man I've changed quite a bit, but you can't really see the forward change that's on the horizon So you make these false equivalencies like well These are the answers I'm searching for and then we do the exercise like well Actually, no, I have evolved on about seven of these just in the last couple years after the pandemic Well, don't you think your partner is probably gonna evolve what their viewpoint is and what their answers might be through a relationship with you Yeah, you're not marrying a person or partnering with a person in time You're partnering with someone to like be there as you walk your path Not even necessarily walk it exactly with you But be there as you walk your path and then you're gonna be there is they walk theirs And that's a much healthier expectation than I'm marrying this person You know, it's in the relationship guide and like if I was gonna end up doing the full chapter This is what I would have focused on but it's the having versus being are you are you in a having relationship or a being relationship? And if you're in a having relationship, it's gonna be really fragile because all that stuff's gonna change Well, what happens in oftentimes in these situations now is okay So you find that romantic partner and you're willing then to give up on your social life you're willing to give up and sacrifice your social relationships and That change can be very jarring for people on the other end who maybe are single or maybe aren't a happy relationship But they still want to maintain that friendship So oftentimes change romantically will then lead to change socially that creates a loss in those Expectations and a straining if not completely breaking of those relationships So we look at change from a social relationship realm. What does the science tell us? So there the science tells us Exactly what you were alluding to earlier those articles that we're going around about like breaking up with friends. Just stupid Like you don't you don't break up with friends. Like there shouldn't be a hostility towards friends Friends can come and go throughout your life and the same person can come and go throughout your life And you should cherish the moments when they're there to support you and if you grow in different directions Or you change or you get an intimate relationship that demands more of your time or God forbid you have two kids Like those friendships are all going to change And if there's any kind of expectation that things were going to be the same as they were when you know Whatever whatever the golden days were like got to get that expectation out of your head Don't put that much pressure on a friendship You know sometimes the best of friends are like people that were there for you 20 years ago And then maybe you kind of lose touch with and then 10 years there they're back in your life and There's no hey what happened. There's no resentment It's like what happened was I moved across the country and you got a job in the minor league baseball playing a 182 game travel season like that's it and I think we do a lot of over-analyzing You know, what does this mean and oftentimes it just means like life is complicated and Things are always changing including including our friendships Now does this give you permission to be a flake and like to flake out on people? No There's a big difference between like flaking out day-to-day and Having some big shifts in your life that then leads you to new friends. You see this often With marriage as you mentioned with children with recovery from major illness or diagnosis with major illness So cancer survivors people that have experienced really bad depression You see this with people that retire and all their friends were through a work context and There's nothing wrong with this. This is like this is normal The problem is a culture that says something is wrong like of course Your friendships are going to change when you got diagnosed with stage three cancer and none of your friends have had that experience Like you can't expect them to have had that experience and with that there's this cognitive distortion of Personalizing everything so it's very easy to feel like oh well They're doing this behavior specifically for a reason to impact me negative or positive when in actuality They may be going through massive change and they haven't had a chance to communicate that change with you And there's absolutely nothing to do with you and what actually heal a relationship is you coming forward and being like hey I realize we've drifted apart. I still really care about you and I'm rooting for you And I hope that fatherhood is going really great. I'm excited to meet your son or hey I I realize you move cross-country and work is Completely new for you in this new job and we haven't kept up, but I'm still here for you man I'm still cheering you on and you'd be surprised how those little actions those little behaviors Strengthen relationship far more than just making blanket assumptions like this person doesn't care about me now They moved across the country. I have to break up with them or I have to never talk to them again because of their actions in this relationship yeah, that's right and the only last thing that I'll add here and You you all spend a lot more time thinking about relationships in particular than me So you might have a more nuanced take But I think that it's one of these catch-22s with technology That it allows us to stay close to people that are geographically very far from us But it can also have this negative impact if we don't develop bonds where we are And I think it's easy to have a couple really good friends that are geographically far away But it's hard to have all your good friends Be people that are geographically far away and this could just be my experience But my experience is like proximity is actually really important for me and friendships I can have you know a best friend I do in California is like a brother right now in my life And that's not a problem, but like the almost brothers, but not really friendships Those aren't the same when I'm not in proximity and I have many good friends now in Asheville where there is proximity And that's kind of back to like acceptance. You know humans were meant to be in proximity And again, I'm sure of it There's all kinds of different temperaments and different people are somewhere on a spectrum But I think that if you're struggling one one question to ask yourself maybe is like the proximity one Well with that again going back to our mind So we'll glance at social media We'll see a photo and then our predictive model fires and goes oh Father it must be great for my buddy who moved to New York City Like I don't need to reach out to him. He just posted a photo of a son when in actuality That's a reason to reach out and we encourage all of our coaching clients What people are posting about on social that might be Really amazing or it might be a way for them to have the social media mask when in actuality They're struggling, but they want to keep that digital presence going So each one of those moments instead of relying on your predictive model and your brain saying oh, they're busy Or oh, they're having a great time on vacation Use that as a moment to reach out celebrate them check in on them. Hey, I saw you came back from Italy. That sounded amazing What's going on? What'd you enjoy? You would be amazed at how much those reach outs whether in person or digitally Matter to strengthening these relationships instead of relying on the social media And technology that seems to be feeding these stories about who people are in our lives Yeah, I could not agree more. I think that's spot on is like Don't trust the algorithm and like you said Generally, I think not even sometimes. I think generally it's telling you the opposite So the more someone feels the need to post happy family pictures the more My radar goes up of like something's probably not so happy right now Not always, but I think often so for those who are in the midst of change What can we do to handle it? What are the four Ps that you recommend the four Ps are to pause And take a deep breath Maybe take a week if it's a really big change if it's a health diagnosis, maybe take a month and Not immediately rush into fixing mode But really pause and assess the situation Accept it update your expectations Then process So once you're seeing reality clearly ask yourself, what does this mean then make a plan because we do generally have some agency So given what's happening given what it means What are the various roads we can take to move forward? And which of those roads do I want to choose first knowing that I can always adjust? And then we proceed, but we only proceed after we go through that process Which is very different Then a reactionary mode which are two Ps Which tends to be panic and pommel ahead Ah, can I with panic and pommel ahead? I just want to add there too Sometimes we're treating to a safe place so that you can observe Right. It's the right thing to do. It may not be going forward, but it allows you an objective Mind to get an objective mind to see the field and to see what's going on to make better decisions Panic and pommel forward It's not going to be it I love that. You like my two my two Ps versus four Ps And because it's true that's what happens, right? I've been yeah, I've I've been there for most of my life I mean, I think all men And AJ and I grew up in a very blue-collar family so it's just like You keep stepping forward no matter what punches are are coming. It is counter biology because change does Create the stress response and that stress response fuels panic I mean your body is telling you to panic So it really takes a higher level of thinking for you to go. Hey, wait a second Let me pause here not react in a moment where my body is wiring me to react Yeah, and that takes a lot of practice Something that can help with pausing is just naming your emotions So when you name an emotion you create some space between yourself and your experience of it And that space is the definition of a pause Mindfulness practice. I mean if there is a point to meditation It's this it's to be able to create some space between immediate feelings thoughts urges and what you do about them And I think this is something of it takes practice If you're in the groove of just immediately reacting It's going to be really hard to take a deep breath and we can practice this in small situations in our life Like that email that we want to send Wait 10 seconds give it another read That text when we're in a really hot emotional state like wait to fire it off. Yeah, don't send it Yeah, maybe the answer has never send it but We can practice We can practice when the stakes are lower so that that muscle is fairly developed when when the stakes are high I love that. Thank you for sharing brad. You have five questions in the book We'll save that for those who purchased the book But a last question for you that we ask every one of our guests is what is your x factor? What do you think makes you unique and extraordinary I think what makes me unique and extraordinary. Oh man, I don't like to toot my own horn here I was going to say like the people around me. I'm really blessed with good people around me My partner my best friend my kids My editor on the book project, but um What I pride myself most on in my writing is I try to marry head and heart and I try to take a Very intellectual view, but also a very like heartful view And we don't have a word for this in English, but in um in poly which is the a sanskrit The word is sita and sita is like the mind heart And I love that word because when I sit down to write I try to bring that to bear So it's not the mind or the heart, but it's the mind heart um So I aspire to that now am I perfect far from it, but that's the x factor of it I aspire to well I could definitely sense it in your writing both books We enjoyed immensely work in our audience find more about the book the bonus and everything else that you do brad Thanks So the book is master of change and it is available wherever you get books you can get it in any format So hardcover kindle or audio um Like I said, I'm just going to give your audience that bonus because I know you all spend a lot of time helping people with relationships uh people read through that and they like it and then they should pick up the book and um You can find more about me at my website, which is just my name www.bradstahlberg.com Thank you brad. It was a pleasure. It's always a pleasure a j and john. Thank you