 Good evening and welcome to 10 Weeks in Jamaica, theater conversations from Jamaica to the world. My name is Akiba Abaka and I am a co-founder and co-artistic director of Akiba Abaka Arts. We are an international theater production company that creates plays, concerts, talks and processes for making plays, concerts and talks for the global stage. 10 Weeks in Jamaica is presented in collaboration with Raw Management Agency, an esteemed talent agency representing artists and artist groups across all genres in film, television, theater, voiceover, branding and endorsements. We are very grateful for the support of Ms. Nadine Rollins, Raw Management's managing director and a powerhouse in the Jamaican theater and film scene. Ms. Rollins also served as co-curator for this series. We are also thankful for the support of our publishers, HowlRound.com, some of you may be watching us on HowlRound.com at the moment. And HowlRound is a free and open platform of theater makers worldwide that amplifies progressive, disruptive ideas about the art form of theater and facilitates connection between diverse practitioners hence this link between Boston and Jamaica. We are also grateful for the support of the Martin E. Segal Theater Center, a home for theater artists, scholars, students, performers, performing art managers and the local and international performance communities located at the City University of New York, Cooney in Manhattan, New York. In the series, we link with our colleagues in Jamaica, the beloved island nation, cultural hub and one of the capitals of tourism, vacation capitals of the world for 10 weekly conversations about the subject of theater. Jamaica's theatrical legacy dates back to the 15th century or the 1400s, for those of you who can't remember like myself, the centuries and the date, the 100s. So the 15th century, 1400s and represents a diverse collection of stories about the people and the cultures that have converged on the island for over 400 years. Today's topic will focus on a treasured Jamaican landmark, the Ward Theater, a gift to the parish of Kingston in 1911 by Lieutenant Colonel Charles Ward. Now many Jamaicans watching right now may recognize another familiar brand associated with Mr. Ward. He is the nephew in the J-Ray and nephew rum brand. So some of us know that rum brand very, very well, including myself. We are joined today by two of Jamaica's finest actors slash director playwright producers, Mr. Oliver Samuel's O.D. Order of Distinction and Dr. Brian Heap for this lively conversation about the iconic stage that launched their illustrious careers. Later in the conversation, we will be joined by Ms. Anola Williams, a co-founder and producer of the Kingston on the Edge Arts Festival, Co-Team. Ms. Williams is also a member of the former Ward Theater Foundation, a nonprofit organization that managed the venue from 1986 to about 2017. She will fill us in on some of the activities of the foundation during the years that the foundation managed the venue. And then we'll have a collective visioning for what the venue will become after 2020 when the world opens up and the stages of the world open up again. So, at this time, I would like to introduce to you Mr. Oliver Samuel's, Mr. Samuel's, if you can get your... Everybody come, come, come, come. Everybody come. You're in Milwaukee, the world is gonna kiss you there. So, at this time... Are you seeing my cake? Are you seeing my cake? Mr. Samuel's was celebrating a very, very special day. And so, here we are. Yes, Mr. Samuel's, sir. Welcome. Welcome. Akiba, I thank you so, so very much. And before we go into the meat of the matter, I'd like to tell your audience and the world that this I'm celebrating, it's part of the celebration of 50 years in theater, 50 glorious years in theater, and also my 72nd birthday. And I have, in my company, I am privileged to have my grandchildren, my best friends, and my son, and the cook, and the washerwoman, and the washerman, and everybody. So, I'm feeling ex... And the music man, who I am not gonna call his name, you shall be dealing with next week. He has been dealing, and all my daughters also here, and everybody there. So, my lovely, I just want all of them to say, and you know that I got the command of the order of distinction from the government. Yes, sir. We did mention that. Ah, so long. I just want all of them to say... All of them to the world, yes. So, Mr. Samuel, yes, sir. Introduce yourself to the world. Tell us a little bit about yourselves. One take, my love. Balaam, balaam, balaam. Yes, sir. So, it's a celebration. It's a celebration. I heard you were frying two fish before we started. What? Akiba... No, it's celebration one, whatever one. Akiba, it's a celebration. We started at seven this morning. And it cannot end. Because one, somebody came in and came in and came in and said, I heard you were frying two fish earlier. Look here, I'm so sorry you're not here. We have the most gorgeous peanut, peanut, peanut porridge. We have the most lovely succulent roast. The jerk pork? Jerk pork. I know you say it all. We have all of the premium liquors. It's just an amazing experience. And, you know, it's a special day. And I'm going to be so wonderful to you because you arranged this on this gorgeous day. Well, we are so happy to have you. We are honored to be in your presence. You are the king of comedy. And your light introduction proves that. Now, tell us a little bit about your background. How did you get started in the theater? And where is your career right now? All right. I believe that my entrance to theater started. I was born on a plantation. And at that time, we never had the opportunity of the technology. So it was just one thing. And it was the re-diffusion. And it was only one person on the estate, on the plantation, that could afford the re-diffusion. So, you know, people would look around. Everybody would congregate sometimes, probably listen to the news. Or then there was that life in hopeful village with Mrs. Liu and Ma Trang. And that kind of stuff. But after that, tell them to turn it off. After that, what happened, the people, the adults, every weekend, they would create situations that took place during the week on the plantation. Maybe one of the workers was delinquent and got caught by the bush or one of the laborers was stealing some coconuts and got caught by the ranger and the scanners. And they re-enacted that. And while they were doing that, because there was a separation between children and adults. And while they were doing all of that re-enactment of the week in review, we as kids were like on the little parochial road playing moonshine, dahl, in and out canary games. So that is the kind of groundation that I'm coming from. Albeit I did not know that that would set me off to be this person I am today. And the person you are today is a legend of the Jamaican stage. You are most kind. Oh, but it's a fact. In the 1980s, you took your theatrical work and launched a television sitcom, Oliver at Large. Yes. Can you tell us a little bit about how Oliver at Large came to be? Yeah, sure, absolutely. I have a very funny story to tell you, but I'm sure you're gonna get a question that will lead me into that. But Oliver at Large came into being in that some time about in 1978, 79, I was doing a travel on display called Schools Out. And a gentleman by the name of Calvin Butler, who is Jamaican-Canadian, came to the show and he was most impressed with my acting. At the end of the show, he came to me and he said, oh, why aren't you on television? You are just absolutely brilliant. And I am going to see that you get on television. But because I have been at the time was so accustomed to all these foreigners coming to tell me how good I was and that they're going to give me big movies. I'm never got Hollywood. I'm never got Yaston. I'm never got Deso. When he said that to me, I said, oh yeah, another one, right? But a year later, I was working at the office of the prime minister in the Department of Culture. And there was this man. He came to do some work in that same department. And one day he saw me and he recognized me and said, oh, you, yes, yes. And immediately he went to our boss, who was the minister of culture then and still is today, Honorable Olivia Babs-Grain, and told her of his experience and that I should be on television. The minister immediately called the general manager of JBC. The Jamaica Broadcast Company, right? Yes, Broadcast Corporation. And the general manager was most receptive. And he Calvin Butter started to scout for writers and talents. And so we did, I think, five billionths. And my dear, it ricochaged into one of the biggest requests in Jamaica. The Jamaican people said, we have to have more. We must get more. And therefore, the Oliver at large became a reality from the five billionths. Amazing. Well, at this time, I'd like to connect with Brian Heap. Brian Heap, you came to Jamaica from England in 1973. Not Scotland. Scotland. No, England. England. Our research says England. Scotland was Bob Carr. So in 1973, you landed on the island of Jamaica and you landed at the Ward Theatre where you saw Mr. Samuel's on stage performing. And that was your introduction to this man. And also, it was our introduction to your brilliance as an actor. You would then go on to be a lecturer and then professor at the University of the West Indies, Mona Campus. Please introduce yourself. I was actually in that same production of Schools Out that Oliver referred to. That was the first production that I did at the Balm Theatre. Very nice. I came in and replaced Bob Carr. Yes. That was the first time we worked together on stage. Tell us a little bit about your background and how you started out in theatre. I didn't. I mean, I came to Jamaica to teach economics and history. Just by chance. I mean, the thing is that in any situation in Jamaica in the theatre, very often you need a white man for a villain or, you know, whatever it is. And I played the expatriate in Schools Out. So that was my first production, you know. And so gradually I began moving into more and more theatre as an actor. And strangely enough, I was spotted by the late Shirley Orb, who was also an actress, who worked at Central Access Teachers College. And she asked me to come and teach drama. And I said, I don't know. I don't have any qualifications in teaching drama or anything. But the amazing thing was they had faith in me. And I was teaching teachers how to do it. And the college actually sent me back to England to retrain. So I went back for a year and retrained in drama. And then over the years moved to the drama school and to the university and so on and so forth. But, you know, I moved away from acting into directing. So, you know, so it's like Oliver. It's been a long, a long career. Yes. And so you've been teaching. You taught theatre at Uemona. And you also ran the Philip Sherlock Center for the dramatic arts. And in that time, you launched a course on the history of Jamaican theatre. Many people believe. So we're talking about the Ward Theatre. And one of the reasons why I wanted to start the conversation off, or the series off, on the Ward is because the Ward was given to the country, gifted to Kingston in 1912. And it actually sits on a spot where there has been two other theatres there. Jamaica has had a public theatre since 1775. And so when we think about, when many people think about the Ward Theatre, we kind of think about two Jamaicas, that it's been the playing stage for two Jamaicas. It's been the playing stage for the colonial Jamaica, the European Jamaica. And then it's been a playing stage post-1942-43, the little theatre movement for indigenous Jamaican stories, African Jamaican stories. And so we kind of see the Ward Theatre as a gateway, this kind of Edwardian structure that serves as a gateway between colonial narratives and the post-colonial narratives that would become. And that has shaped our culture, reggae music, every aspect of Jamaican culture today. But you have a different history that African Jamaicans were always making theatre, right? I mean, Louise Bennett wrote a poem called Colonialism in Reverse. It was really written about the time when Jamaicans were going to England in the 40s, 50s, 60s. The Wing Rush generation. That's right. But Brian, before you go to that, I would like for you, Brian, to speak to the importance of the Ward Theatre in that it was a repository for or reservoir for allowing American shows to premiere here. Because I know you know the history very well. Right. And that is an important thing. Right. I mean, I think it's, I mean, the point I was going to make is that I think, I think, that we can be colonizing in reverse from the very start. You have to be very careful. You know, a lot of people will say, well, you know, theatre in Jamaica began with independence. No, it didn't. And then you go back to 1941 and people say, well, yes, it would begin with pantomime. And they mistakenly think that Rita and Henry Fowler were foreign white people. They were Jamaicans. And let me just contextualize here. Rita and Henry Fowler were the founders of the Little Theatre. Right? And let's pantomime. Well, just Jamaica's Little Theatre Movement is Jamaica's, it's analogous to the regional theatre movement in the United States. Right. I mean, they were central in putting a lot of production on the stage to do their own theatre as well. But the point is, I mean, you can trace back to Marcus Garvey through Henry Fowler's family. Wycliffe Bennett makes the point that Henry Fowler's maid nuns, he had two maid nuns, were teachers of Marcus Garvey. Marcus Garvey, when he came back to Jamaica, went to visit Henry Fowler's aunties to thank them for the, you know, the education that they'd given him. So... So Marcus Garvey started out in the theatre. And he's a great auditor. Marcus Garvey was also a great promoter of culture and, you know, music and all the rest of it. And Rani Williams, who featured along with Louise Bennett in many of the pantomimes, was somebody who worked with Marcus Garvey on the pageants and all the rest of it. If you go back to the Ward Theatre in the 20s, there's Ernest Cupidon, who broke the collar bar because a lot of the companies that were white companies, Cupidon went in there as the first man of colour, you know, actor of colour to work with, you know, these white companies. But the history, I mean, if you look at Errol Hill, Errol Hill talks about companies in the, as you said, there were three theatres on that side. And before the Ward Theatre, there was the new theatre royal. And before that, the theatre royal, which had been the Kingston Theatre. And Errol Hill talks about amateur companies in the 1840s trying to get space at the theatre royal because there was a big, like, even like today in Jamaica, you know, stage spaces in short supply. In the world, the people are in short supply. And there were two groups, the Ethiopian Amateur Society and the Numidian Amateur Association. And these were black theatrical companies performing in Kingston and the theatre royal in the 1840s. So, you know, we have to be careful in, you know, how we talk about, you know, the racial divide. Because, you know, it was not a complete, you know, banning of black companies and actors at all up until modern times. The people were there and they performed. And Errol Hill talks about how in the really old days, because before the theatre royal and, you know, on this site of the Ward Theatre, there were theatres on Harbour Street, you know. There were theatres in Spanish Town. There was a theatre in Spanish Town, there was a theatre in Montego Bay, right. And what happened is that the house servants from the plantations would go to the theatre because they didn't have any reserved seats. And they would go and sit in the seats until the master and mrs. came for the seat. But as the performance started, they would go to the back of the theatre and watch the show. And so that's one of the reasons why when you go into Jamaican folk culture, you can find references to plays like Richard III and the Fair Penitent and all of this kind of thing in the Jon Canoe and in the dance forms and all this kind of thing. So it's a long, complex history. So, you know, speaking of Richard III, tell us a little bit about the tradition of Brookings. There's a Jamaican dance form called Brookings that includes the sword fight and the... Yes. Well, Brookings is a later form because Brookings came around the time of emancipation. A lot of the songs in Brookings are talking about... Oliver can speak to this because he's from St Mary's. So next door to Portland, he knows all these things. But that was a fairly recent thing. But there is a form called Warwick, which also has swords. And that's a reference to Richard III. And I think Ivy Baxter, well, and Errol Hill, talk about Jon Canoe performances because they had a play. They had a play. And in Jamaican folk lore, people talk about a play, even a kumina, they talk about a play, right? And so, for me, when I was doing the research, one of the things that was interesting to me was that the English folk had a thing called moming. Yes. I think it was a moming tradition. And the thing that we have to be careful of is thinking that Africans came to Jamaica with no sense of anything. There was a strong Yoruba theatrical tradition in West Africa that travelled around the country. One of the things in Yoruba theatre tradition is a death and resurrection play. Somebody dies, a doctor is called, the doctor performs some magical thing and the person is resurrected. That is the same play that you find in the English moming tradition. And you can see it in Sylvia Winter, a famous Jamaican writer, wrote a play called Masquerade and she put that death and resurrection play in there. So, we're talking about two traditions here. So would you say that the traditions have been borrowing from each other? Would you say, because I know Oliver, you performed in a Cinderella with the pandemon, the pandemon, right? Yeah, no, Cinderella, no. It was a guy called Michael London and he played Cinderella in, I think, the Bob Kerr's production. I played something called, a character called Moutamassi in Queenie's Daughter and it was also a day. Right, but the cultures, from what you're saying, Brian, we have the African culture and the European or the Western culture all presenting theater at the same time. What do you do? Does your research show any moments pre-independence, which was Jamaica's independence 1962 as we know very well, but pre-Jamaica's independence, does your research show an integration of the two narratives, of the two traditions? Well, of course, because you're living in a creolized society. So, this creolization process where cultures meet and acknowledge each other and then begin to intermingle. But the problem is I think very often we look at it in a very skilled way. We tend to put more emphasis on the European influence on African culture rather than the Africanization of European culture because that Africanization goes into the language. That Africanization goes into the folk tradition where you're borrowing from the European canon. But you're doing it in your style in a different way. So, I think it's a very interesting complex mix all the way through. You know, I really appreciate you sharing that because when we think about Jamaica, which is a predominantly African population or black African population, and we would think that theater, European tradition, that it was a matter of teaching and acculturizing the Africans and the blacks. But what you're saying is that the narratives, the stories from this stage was actually doing the opposite. It was actually acculturizing and bringing to light the true Jamaican story, the story of all the Jamaican people in its representation and bringing traditional memories of our African existence on the stage. And there were times when we were doing it in parallel with each other and there were times when we were doing it in conversation with each other. I mean, storytelling is a very important meeting point because you'll see Jamaican folk tales which can be traced back to Europe. And, you know, but have been Africanized and you see stories which are directly from Africa, the Anansi story. This is not true for the whole Caribbean. The African presence in Jamaica was so strong. Yes. You know, so these things have not survived everywhere in the same way. But if you go across the Caribbean, you will still see similarities in the folk tradition. I think it's very, very important for us to study that. You know, yes, I do believe that because especially looking at theater in other Caribbean nations, you know, I want to talk a little bit about the memory. Mrs. Sanmos, I see that you're enjoying your birthday dinner. I eat a jerk pork. You know, Mrs. Sanmos, I can't get none. Yes, I know I am going to drink. I'm trying not to grudge you for your jerk chicken, but I'm your jerk pork. But I do, I am a little jealous over here in Boston. It was a small rest of the day and you got that good jerk chicken going. Yeah, I'm loving it. You know, just connecting with what Brian is talking about when we talk about the stories that come from both the African tradition and the Western European tradition and where they converge. I think that your entry into the theater, through the war theater, through the Little Theater Movement and the pantomime really reflects and displays that convergence of the two cultures melding as far as the Jamaicanization of pantomime or the taking, the claiming, really the claiming, the conquering of pantomime, not to put any kind of negative or aggressive term on an art form, but tell us a little bit about some of your memories. And I think because you both performed together, some of your memories performing on the war theater stage, doing pantomime, and just what that area, what was Kingston? What was North Parade like? Free emancipation. North Parade was just a bustling, a bustling piece of Jamaica. Wow. Think of anything, and it is at North Parade. Let me just give the audience just a geographical snapshot of what we're talking about when we say North Parade. So the war theater is located facing the waterfront, right? In the North Parade section near the Carnation Market, is that, that's correct, right? No, it's not the Carnation Market. It's, there are two markets, but I don't know their names now. Carnation Market would be out to the western end. But in North Parade, then you have, as they say, Parade, you have, there was this park. And then around the park, there is this exceedingly, wonderful, there are two wonderful churches, and a lot of business, business houses, you have the North Parade, you have King Street, and then you have another street that runs down there with a big, big, big tree. But it was a very bustling, even to this day, it is still bustling. There is anything you want in Jamaica, you go to North Parade and you get it. Now, my experience into, my entry into the war was actually by default. I was, I was going three little country boys were going to watch a show at the Carrot Theater in Crossroads. Yes, yes. By the time we got to the entrance, there was this gate, this metal gate. And before we could enter through the metal gate, we found ourselves under the clock, which was changed away. The crowd was so huge that one push and we were lifted and placed by the clock. I do not know what took me, but I said to my friend, look at here man, we go down the ward, go watch Miss Louie. Yeah. And so we went to the ward and we bought our tickets and we went a bit to the fall roost, or what they call the gods. The balcony. Yes, way up in the, in the, in the Kitab, in the oil. Near the saints. You went to sit next to the saints. Right. And when I looked and watched that woman enter the stage, it was like a magical warmth that covered my whole being. You're talking about Miss Louie, the great Miss Louise Bennett Coverley. And I watched and I watched and I watched and at the end of the show, I said to my friends, next year, I will be on that stage with that woman. And how old were you at that time? Huh? How old were you at that time? How old was I? Shh. I was 13, 32. In that book. 22. So you were a very young man looking to make your life, your way in life, and you wanted to make your life on the stage. Yeah, I did not know what I was in for. I was 21 then and at 22, I got into the pantomime. Wow. Be careful what you wish for. And that would bless you. It was the most incredible experience. I was in awe, even going to rehearsal. I wanted to go there first because I wanted to see this queen of Jamaican theater arriving and how we adore her and everybody's rushing to take her little handbag with her food in it because she only do it with her food. And I did the handbag and they take her shawl and you know what I mean? And I must tell you that I became extremely jealous when we were at the, when we finally went to the water before and everybody on the lane, the love lane and love lane is a very important lane to the, sorry, the history of the war. How so? Because on love lane, there was a very famous house of what do you call it, district. And it was, you know, the Aki Bayana Izriera. And I tell you something, actors had their full of people carrying on because they would climb up, interact the third story and they would watch it in the changing room of the water and they would watch the carrying so on of these people and sometimes they'll get their cues. So they were watching the action in the water on the stage? It was a very active place. So they were. And they missed their view. Huh? So they were watching the action on love lane and missed their cues on the water. Yes, because that house of, that house of district was the right, it was opposite and all, exactly opposite to all the floors of the changing rooms and there were about four floors. And the view at the top was just incredible. I don't know. I like it, Brian. So it sounded like this theater was at the center of a very vibrant community. Oh, it was, it was because again, Brian will tell you, there were two bars. Yes. One, the Shakespeare on one side and I don't remember. I think they, I don't remember the name of the other one. And then just behind one of the bars was this house. And I'll tell you something. A lot of times men would tell their significant half that they're going to watch you. They're going to watch Oliver, man. They're going to tell Oliver, put in, put in, put in, put in. And then the women would suspect that oh, they're going to watch Oliver, so. And would go to this house of district and find them in very compromising position, that situation. So you're telling me the theater was a front for some other engagements. And tell the men's and the like. You can look at it that way. Why historic? Oh, well, you know, tell me a little bit about your experience because, you know, we were briefings in this talk. And I, you know, I had to say to Brian, you know, Dr. Heap, forgive me while I fan girl out on Oliver because, you know, he's mean so much to us culturally, especially those of us in the diaspora. And Oliver, you made a point to say that your relationship with Dr. Heap, you all have been working together for many years. And as a matter of fact, he was very influential in you becoming a household name. You're not, okay, so let's see. I wonder what's happening there. Technology, it's great. But just keep listening. I'm going to throw this to Dr. Heap to, I know you guys told me first names, but my mother taught me minus. So I can't call people by the first name. But Dr. Heap, you and Oliver performed together Nothing, nothing, nothing. We can hear you very well. Just give it a moment. It'll probably adjust. Okay, we can, we can hear you well. Brian, you and Oliver performed together on the ward theater stage. Tell us about some of those experiences. Well, we were together in the Pirate Princess, one of the pantomimes. And I played the Pirate Jack Rackham and Oliver was Seaside Harry. And I mean, it was amazing. It was, that pantomime was the first one, I think to run over a hundred. We can hear you, we're still there. We can hear you, we're still there. Yes, but I'm not hearing all of it. You're not hearing all of it. But it was the first pantomime to run over a hundred performances. Wow. I remember one night, I don't know what, Oliver did something. We had a scene together and Oliver did something. And I just started to laugh. I couldn't stop. And as I started to laugh, he started to laugh. And the two of us were just, I think there's a name for it in theater. They say you're corpsing. When you start to laugh uncontrollably. Anyway, we eventually, and the audience were laughing at the two of us laughing at each other. But we gathered ourselves and we were able to continue the show. But the following night, the same thing happened again because when we got to the same part of the show, I was laughing again. Very nice. Well, it seems like Oliver is having a little bit of a technical difficulty. We can hear very well. I know. Yes. Yes, they can hear me. We can hear you very well. We'll give you a little time to adjust. We'll give you a little time. At this time, I'd like to introduce, just to, you know, talk a little bit about this. And Oliver and Brian have shared a little bit about their background and their performance, their memories on the stage. At this time, I actually would like to bring on to the panel, Ms. Enola Williams. Ms. Williams, hi, Enola, good to see you. Awesome. Hi, Enola. Hi, Brian. Enola is a co-founder and producer of the Kingston on the Edge Arts Festival, KOTI. Enola, tell us a little bit about yourself. It is. Well, first of all, I just wanted to say thank you for inviting me to this chat. It's really a good thing that you're doing. So I'm a co-founder and producer, as he's mentioned, of Kingston on the Edge, Urban Arts Festival. And this is a 10-day studio and performing arts festival. It's multi-venue. We have 36 venues throughout the city. And it really is a way to highlight the positive creative energy that exists in Kingston. We started in 2007 at a time when a lot of the negativity that you heard about Kingston, that was what you heard locally and overseas. And we wanted to showcase, it was a group of five friends. We wanted to showcase all of the wonderful creative people that really use Kingston as their home and as their creative place. We also wanted to showcase that art could be used as a tool for social change and that anyone, irrespective of background, could appreciate art and be a part of it. Another part of the festival was also to introduce people, younger generation of people to heritage buildings throughout the city that were either not being used or were seen as only could be used. For example, we gave attention to the Scheherer-Schelom Synagogue on Duke Street, but we brought a full Naya Binghi into that space which allowed people to see a new space with a different culture in it. And this was all Jamaican nonetheless. So my introduction to the Ward Theatre started in 2014. I actually want to give a little history of the Ward Theatre maybe post 1970s in terms of what the Ward Theatre Foundation did. But basically by the end of the 70s, the theatre was in serious disrepair. A lot of people, I think what really led to, in my opinion, a part of the breakdown of the Ward is that at that time, the 60s and 70s, a lot of people, middle-class working people, left downtown and moved uptown into what would become New Kingston. And at that time too, you had the Little Theatre open its doors. So there were shows that left the Ward Theatre. So anyhow, in the late 70s, it was under disrepair in the early 80s, 1982. The theatre went through its last massive renovation. And it's interesting to me personally because I did not find out about this restoration until I started, or renovation, until I started trying to put on a show in the theatre. And it turned out that my father actually was one of the lead architects to do that renovation. And in that, they replaced the roof. They changed the seating on the lower level. They changed the bathrooms. They changed the lobbies. But also importantly, they changed the ventilation systems within the building because prior to that, the building was cooled by sea breeze, by the air coming in through the windows. And in the early 80s, they sealed that and made AC, put AC in the building. That was 82. In 86, the Ward Theatre Foundation was formed. And it was formed by a group of private individuals and I should mention that renovation, my understanding is it was financed through private funding. A guy by the name of Donnie Banks, who at the time was the managing director of Barclays Bank, put together private funding to then give to KSAC, Kingston St. Andrew Corporation, to do the renovations on the building. So in 86, the foundation started and they signed a lease with the KSA, the Kingston and St. Andrew Corporation to operate and manage the space and to upkeep the space. Fast forward sometime in 2007, there was a major tropical storm which actually took off the roof of the building. And for about two weeks straight, it rained. It rained, it rained, it rained and flooded the building. And really and truly, there has not been a renovation sufficient since that time. I will say that the foundation and others were able to put a roof back onto the building. But that's pretty much the extent of the renovations that have happened since 2007. Fast forward, the building wasn't really being used for productions and through the festival I work with, I approached the foundation and asked them if they would be willing to open the space to the eyes of a younger generation. Many people I knew didn't actually know the Ward Theatre. I mean, Brian and Oliver know it. They grew up on that stage, but a younger generation doesn't necessarily know it because it hasn't been open for decades really in a proper way. What we did, they said, sure, go ahead. We sent out a call, a volunteer call, community call. And they were talking about Love Lane earlier. We had people from Love Lane. We had people from Portmore. We had people from downtown, Trenchtown, Uptown. We had ambassadors all show up for a weekend. And we asked people to bring their own buckets, their own mops, brooms, whatever, and come and clean the space. And over a weekend, we had different musicians perform and food was donated to us and some chemicals were donated and we cleaned up the space and were able to fix up the bathrooms. One set of the bathrooms on the lower level with the help of the foundation. And then we had a show and that show highlighted what we also wanted to do is highlight that the theater could be used for all kinds of art. It could be performing art. It could be dance. It could be music. And that music didn't have to be just reggae. It could be classical. It could be jazz. It could be, you know, and the theater itself, the productions that were put in the space could also reflect different parts of our culture and not necessarily just one culture of Jamaica and also bring in people from overseas. We actually had a Venezuelan guitarist perform at that show. Anyways, fast forward, the show went well and we were able to then give whatever profits we made to the Ward Theater Foundation and then from that they invited me to be on the foundation. Nice. I accepted. I was very happy to do so. And we immediately started work for the following production which was the next year, 2015, which I believe you were showing parts of at the beginning of this talk where we did the Bingestra. And the Bingestra is really the marriage between a Naya Bingi and an orchestra. And it was- What's a Naya Bingi? Can you tell us? This is very important because I think there is a definite some people feel that the Ward Theater should only be for high art. And when I say high art, maybe more European-esque art and then others feel that it should be for everyone. And there's this dialogue. What we wanted to show is it could be for both. And so we had a Naya Bingi, which is a gathering of Rastafari and usually for praise or worship, but what is central to that is drumming. So you have what is called Naya Bingi drumming, which is central to Roots Reggae music. So we had a 12-piece Congo Naya Bingi drumming group married with members of the Jamaica Philharmonic Orchestra married with a Chilean opera singer. And we had, it was really quite nice because you got to have the intermingling of cultures within our own and internationally. And we had some wonderful people work on that project to compose music. Peter Ashburn, John Williams, different people all gave of their time for a year to create original music that was performed at this show. And we also had Alwynne Scott, who is in the theater with you guys, so I'm sure you know he was the voice of the ward. Anyhow, that show became, we were able to then fix another set of bathrooms. I should mention a funny thing that happened on the first, in 2014, we were doing our performances and one of our actors actually fell through the stage because the stage itself was so rotten that the floorboards gave way and he fell through. And we were able to do the repairs, not for the full stage, but in the areas that were very damaged. We were able to do repairs there and also fix another set of bathrooms and just do little things. I think what was important for us was to show that a lot of times you say, well, they need to fix it, they need to do it, they need to get it sorted, but really ensure they had a certain level. We felt that we needed to do it, we needed to get involved. We the people needed to be, yeah, we the people needed to do as much as we could to contribute. That show ended up being the last show that was done on the ward theater stage that was open to the public in terms of live performance. There was then one other event, but that was not a show. And then the theater itself basically didn't have any other shows. I should mention that we had to bring in lighting and sound and ACs and a whole lot of stuff to make it truly functionable, but the point was it was usable. And we didn't have to negate its existence and just let it sit there. So fast forward, I was gonna say fast forward to 2017 now. As I had mentioned earlier, the ward theater foundation had signed at least with the, it's now called the Kingston St. Andrew Municipal Corporation. And that lease had expired and it was not renewed. And the KSAMC took over the full runnings of the building, the operations and the management of the building and are currently in the process of renovating it to hopefully it's former glory, but also the potential that it may have going forward. That's amazing. I've seen some of the work that Mayor Williams has been doing with the Kingston and St. Andrew Municipal Corporation. I've seen that new seats have gone in, there's been restoration of the orchestra pit and it's looking really good. At one point, I did see that the ward theater was slated to open in summer of 2020. And we all know that this blessed, amazing blessed year, this great portal that we call 2020, shut down all the theaters around the world, including Broadway, no theater not keep anywhere physically in the world right now. But in Jamaica, we have a saying, we say all good things must come to an end. So the trauma of 2020 will come to an end. The trauma of COVID-19 will come to an end. And so if we were to look at, first of all, thank you for giving us that update on the ward theater from the 80s into the millennium and where we are today, Enola, very, very helpful. And also thank you for your work with Koti, your continued work with Koti. What I'd like to do now is to think about, is to do what I call a dreamscape or a visioning. It's called the 19 of the year 2020, were to be a doorway, a doorway that we're all walking through collectively around the world. What are we leaving behind and what are we taking with us? What is a vision that you each have for this venue? Be creative, we're theater makers, we're theater people. This is a place where we can be creative. What is a vision that you might have for the ward theater, and not just the ward theater, but the Jamaican people and the stories of the Jamaican people that has been represented in that location for over 200, almost 300 years. Please, your vision for the ward theater. What's that? Enola, well, who's gonna talk first? You. All right, as we all know, and it must be continually emphasized, but with the ward theater is a very, very important cultural landmark and center for students in performance. Now, it would be a tragedy if, as a nation, we should lose that, and I do not think we are ever going to lose the ward, but there are certain things that has got to be done. And we, in Jamaica right now, we're talking about re-gentification of the area, and that has to happen. I would like to publicly thank the mayor for his deep involvement in the reconstruction of the ward theater, and I hope that it will be, again, a very lively center for the performing arts, whatever, not just theater, but we have music, dance, and this kind of stuff, and that the area can be returned to an area where people from uptown, downtown, round town, outer town feel safe to come to. That is my wish for the ward theater. That's an amazing vision, and I think it's a dream that can come true very soon. What about you, Brian? Well, the, I mean, in many respects, it's difficult in this day and age to get people to go to live performance, and because there are so many options, and of course, and her group have been fantastic with their, you know, Kingston on the edge. And I think it's sort of initiatives like that that are going to help us to build audience, to say to people, look, you can leave the video recording. Anyway, at the end of this pandemic, I think everybody would be so sick and tired of being on screen that they will want to go to see something live, but there's something about a live performance that you can't get from watching something on the screen because you're there, it's immediate, it's live, and I think we need to sort of encourage. One of the things that came out of Kingston on the edge, they asked me one year if I would do an evening of theater, and I got together some of the student pieces from University of the West Indies, and we put on an evening of theater, and it was just short pieces, you know, one after the other, and the audience was capacity and they loved it. So that became then a spin-off from Kingston on the edge and became something called eight by 10, and it was eight 10-minute pieces by eight different directors. Wow, right. And in 2014, we actually had an eight by 10 festival where we had 24 directors. We had three nights, we had eight different directors each night doing a 10-minute piece. The audience response was absolutely fantastic, and they came out and really supported it, and they liked it because, you know, you go to a play, if it's a play that you don't like, you're stuck there for the rest of the evening, but with 10-minute pieces, if you don't like one, well, you might like the next one, and you'll be on the next one after that, you know, so giving people variety, and you were able to explore all sorts of different genres, you know, through that. So I'm hoping that we can rebuild audiences and have the Ward Theatre as the central focus for live performance in Europe. In 1991, I was the executive producer of the Ward Theatre Foundation Season of Excellence. We had 35 different performances within six weeks, right, including jazz, including classical orchestra, dance company from Cuba, you know, I mean, it was just, you know, people's thought we had, you know. Was one of my favorite, or not one of my favorites, but it's the one that I remember the most, and I think it is important with the Ward Theatre too, the Cuban dance one, Danza Contemporanea of Cuba. It opened my eyes in ways that I had never seen dance before, and I think that's an important part of art and culture overall. There has to be an exchange of ideas and voices, not just ours, but others, and learn from each other, so that was an amazing show. Right, right. You know, I wanted to add too, to both Oliver and Brian were saying, I think that, yes, at a certain point, we're all gonna get tired of looking at the screen, and there is something to be said for human interaction, and that will come back. It will take a very long time, probably, but it will come back to Oliver's point for those people that aren't familiar with Kingston right now. In the past three years, there's been a huge growth in development, and by development, I mean in buildings, in residential buildings that are eight to 10 stories. There are huge numbers of them going up in the past two to three years, but they are all going up in uptown Kingston, and none of them are happening in downtown Kingston, and I think what is important to be able to keep the Ward, a lot of times we think of the Ward as its own entity, its bubble, but I think it's important to remember that it is a building within a community, and to build that community, you need to have mixed-use spaces. You have to have people living and working in the space, so there should be some of these high-rises that are going up in new Kingston, really need to be going on in downtown Kingston to regenerate that area so that people go there and that people feel, I mean, I think of when you're going to the theater, maybe on Broadway, you walk down the streets, it's not just going to that theater for that night, it's the entire community around it, and we've got to help fix that, and then also deal with the safety issues. So on that point, the idea has been floated to change parade gardens, which became William Grant Park, change that entire area into a pedestrian zone, and move all of the vehicular traffic, because it's very hard to get to the Ward theater, it's not planned, and there's no parking. One of the biggest problems for that theater, and for a lot of the businesses in that area, is parking, in my opinion, I would think that like a multi-level parking garage would be quite useful to the theater. The theater currently seats 832 seats. Not that it's going to be with the renovations, that number is going to go down, but regardless, at 800 seats, that's a lot of cars, and you have to have the parking for that. People have discussed parking in other areas and busing them to the theater, but I don't think people really will want to be bused to the theater. To their point about the brothel across the street on Love Lane, that building was actually demolished, I believe around 2017, 2018, and flattened into a car park, to add additional parking for the theater, but it still doesn't really, it's very small. For when we had our shows there, we had to use church parking lot, we used about 12 different parking lots around, and we only were using the lower level, which is 230 seats. So we couldn't even fill the rest of the building if we tried, because there's nowhere to park people. I think that's important, but finally for me, what's important is that people within the area must feel ownership of the space also. So I think that education is incredibly important, so that, fine, we restore the building, but we have people from the area being taught about lighting, being taught about sound, and actually work and feel ownership and belonging to the building, so that they also protect it and want it to be there, rather than coming from outside saying, this building must stay up. People have to feel that they are a part of it. So that, yeah. I was gonna say, we had a very good relationship during pantomime with the people in the area. I mean, I remember being invited with Barbara Gluden one time to go and switch on their Christmas lights, just at the top of the lane, and we very often encourage the kids, we'd find a night when we had low numbers and get the kids in the lane to come and watch. But in terms of the revitalization of Kingston, it's started already, that the waterfront is beginning to open up, the Victoria Pier, and that whole area there has been revitalized, and I hope that that continues, you know what I mean? It's been affected, obviously, by COVID. I would say too that you don't want to... But, Brian, the revitalization, as the young lady says, has to involve people living. Of course. And another very important point is having them feel that they are part of the ward. Because, remember, we had like Roy, we had quite a number of the young men from the lane or in the surrounding area who used to do work on lights, who used to do curtain, you had Miss Merle, who used to cook round about there and we would buy food from her, and these kinds of stuff. And so it is very, very important in the revitalization that we think of housing for people, so that they remain in the area. You know, we have some... I'm gonna go back to you, Enola. We do have some people with comments in the chat right now, because we are live on YouTube right now. And I just want to say that those of you who are watching us from wherever you're watching us, first of all, thank you for being here. And thank you for being here in this part of the conversation, because you've been with us for now about an hour. So I wanna encourage any questions, feel free to drop your questions in the chat. And one of our viewers on YouTube is talking about, is also answering this question and speaking to the question of a vision and is responding to what you're saying, that there's an inagreance, saying that there needs to be an integration of the community inside of the movement to revitalize the ward theater and the venue. I just wanna share that the story of the ward theater, especially where it is now, is that it's not an uncommon story as far as these types of theaters are concerned. Here in Boston, we have the Strand Theater, and the Paramount. Now the Strand Theater is located in Dorchester, which is a predominantly immigrant, predominantly black community. And then the Paramount Theater is actually located in downtown Boston in the historic theater district, which is kind of our West End. And what we see around the world in Boston and in Harlem, in Washington, D.C., all over the world, you see these grand beautiful theaters of the last century that might have been an opera house, might have been a vaudeville theater. And then film came in, and those spaces were transitioned into cinemas. And then cinemas became more sophisticated and people started to build cinemas. So then they stopped showing film in these beautiful, what I call all great theaters, grand downs. We see these beautiful theaters close, and then they fall into disrepair. The next thing that happens is the community, the people living, like you're saying, Mr. Samuel's, the people living in the neighborhood, living around the theater, galvanize and rally together. And like Annola points out, they get their buckets, they get their mop and their water and their paint, and they rally and they fight to save the venues, to save the building, because they see their history and they see their present and they see the possibility for a future to be represented and reflected back to them on those stages. The next thing that happens is the government, the city, the municipality will declare the venue a landmark. And once the venue has declared a landmark, there becomes government responsibility for its upkeep. So this tradition is, you see it everywhere with these types of theaters. And what we're noticing as theater presenters and producers, all of the world is that the future of these venues, not just these venues, but the people and the culture and the vivacity of these communities require that community and foundation and state and city work together to assess what can be and how is this space valuable? So then there is education. Then, you know, myself and my business partners, Natasha and Magalie, we actually came up in a similar model where we were trained at the Strand Theater in Dorchester in lighting and set design. We often say that there's nothing that we can't do in the theater. The only thing I can't do is climb up and into the grids because I don't do heights, I'm not going up there. But I will hang the lights if you bring them to me, but I'm not hanging the lights if I have to go up there to them. But you know, so you see young people then are trained in the theater and then they grow up to be the vanguards of the theater, the protectors of the theater and the tradition continues. So that is something that we are seeing. And again, I'm encouraging people in the chat to just share any questions you may have. Where do you see Jamaica? Where do you see Kingston? Where do we see Jamaica? Where do we see the ward? Where do we see Jamaican theater in that trajectory right now? Where now the survival of the theater is dependent on the collaboration and integration of states and people and artists together and young people and education and really good quality theater on that stage. Where is Jamaica in that process? I think there are a number of different initiatives. I mean, Kingston Creative is an example. And I think Kingston Creative would probably all quite a lot to Kingston on the edge because it is a good example of how artists and people in the downtown community have come together. You've got wonderful mural paintings and you've got different, the street market and month-end events at the National Gallery and all of this sort of thing. So that up until the beginning of the pandemic, this was a regular and growing end of month weekend activity Friday, Saturday and Sunday. And because of that community involvement, you had cultural tours and the ward was part of that. So I think those initiatives are there. In education, we're seeing the University of Technology. Doing is a started working on a collaboration with the United States program from the United States Embassy, which is training young lighting and sound technicians. There's another thing at U-Tech, which is on a degree program in sound recording done in collaboration with the Canadian University. So I think, and there are also events management courses at the University of the West Indies and things like that. So there's a great deal of interest in this thing. And as I say, in these different areas of education, the community, we have not yet got the full support of the private sector and the government. We have nothing like an arts endowment for the arts. No arts council or anything like that. There is Chase, where you can competitively go for grants for projects and so on. But it's a competition because it covers culture and sport and health and education and all the rest of it. So you're competing with other areas. But I think a start has been made. Yes. So we're at the beginning of the revolution or the transition as we walk through this doorway of 2020. And Nola, where are we, as you see it, especially in the work that you're doing with Koti, where are we in the trajectory of this cultural and theatrical revival in Jamaica? I want to touch back on the ward as we were discussing before, just to a point bringing back. I think it's very important. Even though you have all of these activities happening, the ward is not on its own in that space. And it's important to highlight other spaces that are also important within that area. As Oliver mentioned earlier, there are two churches on North Parade. One of them is Koch Methodist. And it's important to look at the other spaces that come together to create the fabric of that area and not just the ward theater in a bubble. Because if we continue to look at it in a bubble to just restore the building, but not necessarily the environs, it's, I think it will be difficult to get people to truly come into the space and fill the space. Because I mean, theater people would most likely be aware. If you're not filling that theater, if you have 800 seats, but you're only getting 100 in there, you can't keep it going. It can't pay for itself. So you have to be able to fill those seats. And to do that, you have to have also places for people to actually get to the building. It's hard to get to the building right now. You make a great point that the rest, the renovations and the movement should not happen in a bubble. It has to be accessible. One of the challenges we have in the United States and in many theaters, this notion, in many different markets around the world is this notion of audience development. Because what's happening is you have a generation of folks who have some money and they can afford a theater ticket and they're older. They typically are knowledgeable of the story that's being told. They have some reference in their own reading of what's being put on the stage. And you find that they're in small numbers and they come and they come regularly. Some of them are subscribers, meaning that they buy their tickets in blocks a year in advance. So sometimes it's like season ticket holders to a next game in some of these theaters in the States. And they pass that subscription down. You can inherit it from your parents. And that tradition is there, but that group of people, that tradition is shifting. And so you have the younger generations, generation X and Gen Z and millennials who don't have that practice. And so what that leaves is passion for the theater, but empty seats. And the people closest to some of these theaters tend to be people of the working class. So then you have another barrier. Well, the tickets are extremely expensive. Sometimes to go to the theater, you have to take out a second mortgage depending on where you are. Yes, I have not gone to see Hamilton. And unless somebody gives me a ticket that I can afford, I probably won't see it. But I'll watch the Disney version. No shade on Hamilton. We love Hamilton. But anyhow, what's happening is, when I, as a creative producer at Art Somerson, where I am grateful to be employed, I'm always asking the question, well, what about the poor? How are we gonna get people, how are we gonna get poor people? I'm gonna say, because no one likes to say, no one likes to talk about poverty. Poverty is a cutoff from culture, which it should not be. Poverty can happen to anybody. Poverty is a condition and it's not a lifestyle. It's a condition. You can go in and out of poverty. So what happens when you cannot afford to go to the theater? So as this is a visioning portion of our talk, how can we make the theater accessible across income lines? How do we make education and training in the theater across income lines accessible? Well, yes, sir. Oliver? My reaction to your question might be very, very parochial, but I know I can speak of it about the Jamaican people. Poverty does not represent them or us from enjoying ourselves. The Jamaican people love entertainment. Right? And they will pay, maybe sometimes stupid, so pay any amount of money to go and see what they want. I believe it is the artist's responsibility to ensure that the quality of the performance is top-ranked and would let us try not to give up, but keeping our costs minimally. We can pay our bills and earn something from it, but I don't think that poverty is a word that comes when you're dealing with Jamaican experience and theater or entertainment as a whole. Exactly. Well, that's a great, great point. Brian, you wanted to speak to that? Well, I mean, the thing is that strangely enough, it's backing up Oliver's point. You go to other places like Britain where they have concessions, concession tickets for students and elders, pensioners, and what have you. And we tend not to do that. We do have children's tickets and student tickets, meaning my experience at University of the West Indies. But one of the models that I thought was very interesting that I saw in Britain was a private sector initiative where the private sector company subsidises the tickets, so that the National Theatre will have, you know, 110-pound tickets available for a particular show. And you can get online and get those, you know, as soon as they're issued. And of course, they go very quickly. But that is, you know, because it also promotes the private sector company. I think in the National Theatre it was a Cambio or an insurance company that was doing that kind of thing. But if we set our minds to it, we can find ways to make some of the ticket prices attractive to people. So having multiple ticket prices, I'm going to toss this to Enola just to close us out before we, because we're coming to the end of our conversation, our little lime in front of the ward theatre. But yes, express, tell us, how can we be more inclusive in the theatre, especially as creators? To follow up on Brian's point, which I really like that idea of private enterprise getting involved, but I'm going to throw in something that we did with the Art Festival for the National Gallery in 2007. At the time, the National Gallery cost $50 to get in, and that might not seem like a lot of money. It was like 50 cents US, but it's a lot of money to some people. And we petitioned the gallery for months and until they finally allowed us to have one day that was free and open to the public. And on that day, anyone could come and they could also get free guided tours of the permanent collection. And I personally went out to the harbor front and there were a bunch of kids swimming in the harbor in their brief. And I asked them, have you ever been in that building? They said, no. I said, where you live? They lived right beside it and they had never been in there. I said, do you want to go in there? I said, yeah. So they came out to the harbor soaking wet and we went into the National Gallery and their eyes just lit up. Because for the first time, they felt that they were a part of that building that was in their community. They were able to see something they had never seen before. And it just, it also made them feel special that day. So by extension for what Brian was saying, yes, we can have very discounted tickets. I mean, when you go to Times Square in New York, the line at the ticket last time, you get all the tickets. This is where everyone gets their tickets. And then you can't afford the regular tickets, right? So you have something like that. So you have the concession, lower price tickets. You then also have corporate tickets that are sponsored. And then maybe once a month or something, you have a number of tickets that are given out free. But, and I know that's difficult to say because at the same time, we're trying to make money to keep the space alive. But you also have to have people in the space to understand what's happening there. And if your choices between buying food tonight or going to the theater, I think it's clear to everyone what you're gonna do. So education, again, is super important within schools to understand what is behind those walls? What can they get from the theater? Why should they go? On so many levels, right? As, you know, for one's own edification, for one's career, for one's vision, and for one's grounding. I love going to the theater because sometimes I find that the work I see from my colleagues in the field helps to ground me as a human being, not just reflecting the lived experience that I have, but a shared humanity of experiences that I do not have. And I'm able to look at these specific narratives and specific cultures and understand myself as a universal human being. I wanna close out right now. We actually have the privilege and the honor of being joined by Andrea Demster Chung. She is watching us on YouTube. And for those of you, I see Brian is smiling. So Andrea Chung is the Executive Director of Kingston Creative. And we might have heard Kingston Creative brought up a lot in this talk. The work that Andrea has been doing is phenomenal from mural projects to there's a current fund called the Catalyst Initiative that has Caribbean artists speaking to each other. I've been watching some of the talks. They're creating work together, funded by the American Friends for Jamaica and the Fresh Milk Foundation. So no, things are gone. We are collaborating. We are rallying around each other. We actually were able to meet the great Nicky Rollins at a talk that Kingston Creative did earlier in the pandemic. So what Andrea, thank you for being with us and being with us at this time. Andrea points out exactly what Enola says that the children who live in the neighborhoods, those of us at one point, my family lived very close to the Ward Theater. It was just a 10 minute walk to the Ward Theater. And the children who live in those neighborhoods should not live in the shadows of the Ward. They should be able to live in the seats. They should live on the stage. They should live and grow to run and preserve the Ward. And so all of what you have given us today, Oliver, Brian and Enola, you've given us insight, you've given us history, you share their memories and then you have given us vision and we can dream together. And yes, we thank Mayor Williams for his work. And hopefully at some point he will convene this brain trust that's on this call and in Jamaica to vision on what can happen with the programming and the community engagement. So as the building comes to life, the culture and the narrative and the story joins it and we all ships rise on the same time. So our conversation on the Ward Theater comes to an end here but not our series on Jamaican theater. Join us next Sunday at 4 p.m. Eastern time, 9 p.m. I hope my family in London is watching. It's about almost 10 o'clock right now or 10 30. I know some of my uncles stayed up to watch this but join us next week as we continue the conversation on Jamaican theater. The subject next week is decolonizing pantomime, the little theater and Miss Lou, Louie Bennett. You've heard us talk about pantomime and you heard us talk about the little theater and you heard this Miss Lou, the grand dom that Oliver described earlier, everybody holding her bags and everybody wanting to be her. Who are these people? How are we talking about? We're gonna be joined next week by Ania Gludon and Dr. Deborah Gordon-Hickley and the great Faye Ellington. All three having roots in the little theater and roots in the Jamaican pantomime and great relationships with Miss Lou. They will join us and they will take us down memory lane as we look at the history, the memory and the future of pantomime Jamaican theater and just reflecting on the great Miss Lou. Thank you all so much for being with us and I wanna thank our partner, raw management and the powerhouse, Miss Nadine Rawlings and I wanna thank our sponsors and publisher, HowlRound.com and the Segal Theater Center. Thank you so very much. And listen, Jamaicans say what good and we theater people, we say, see you on the boards and that's the boards, the floorboards of the theater. Hope to see you on the boards, on the ward theater and we're gonna open it up again. All right, bless up yourselves. Thank you. I'm in celebration of theater. I bide. It's the years with Oliver Samuel. Me bide, me kiek. Oh. No, we good fellow. Yes. Happy birthday, Oliver. And thank you so much for the years. Bye. Take care. Bye. Thank you so much for being here and thank you to our audience worldwide.