 Welcome everybody to the Private Property Farming Podcast. My name is Ambali Nwokor. It's been a minute since we started airing, but I'm glad to be back on your screens in a different setup. And today we've got an amazing guest to start off the show this year. So as always, if you have any questions, please feel free to comment, like, and share this video with anybody that you think might find this conversation today quite interesting and valuable. And if you've got any specific questions for our guest, please also send the questions through so that we could answer them accordingly. So today we have the Executive Director of Greener World South Africa. And his name is Dossi Zogufa. Dossi, thank you so much for joining us. How are you doing? Good, good, good, good. It's a beautiful day down in Cape Town, buddy, and thanks for having me. It's a pleasure. It's a pleasure. So you're an Executive Director of a Greener World South Africa. And I know we're chatting off air where you said, you know, a greener world has various chapters across the globe. So just tell us about what you currently do within a greener world, what your role entails and what the organization a greener world does. Awesome. Well, a greener world has started in about 10, 12 years ago in the USA. It was then called Animal Welfare Approved, you know, and it was focusing solely on animal welfare, specifically farm animal welfare, buddy, and then it sort of changed its strategy about four or five years ago when it then focused on not only animal welfare, but also the soil regenerative agriculture, for example, and also farming non GMO. And it is a certification body, by the way, that certify an audience of cause identify farmers who are farming as close as possible to nature. And then we've also have a chapter in the UK specifically, and then also Europe in areas like Portugal. And then what I've done, I've seen that there is a need for such a body in South Africa. And around is is also animal welfare body of work with conversion in world farming, who are based in Goldhamming in the UK, I've also worked for Humane Society International, who are also US based. And then we were always asked by customers or clients rather where, how do I know the chicken that I'm eating is indeed free range chicken, you know, and then when I looked around and saw that there's no way to tell and I couldn't, I couldn't say I couldn't put my head on the floor and say, Yeah, yeah, definitely a chicken that you get from so and so is free range is organic, you know, it has been fed on GM feed. I couldn't say that. And when I looked around, I looked for an organization that, in fact, I even wanted to start my own thing, you know, just call it maybe humane farming certified, you know, something along the lines. But then I thought, South Africans don't know me, they will say, Who's this guy? Maybe we don't even trust him. So no, no, no, let me scout around. And then I looked at a document that was published by a UK organization, it lists different certification bodies that are looking specifically at animal welfare. And a greener world was number one. And then there was another one, number two, number three, I approached all four of them, you know, all of them international organizations. And then the greener world was the one who were interested, you know, to look at the South African model of farming and they came down. We saw different stakeholders, University of Kulturi, a lecturer, we went to see Department of Agriculture, you know, national and provincial. We visited companies like Pick and Pay and Woolworths, you know, we visited different farmers just for them to get the pitch of the South African landscape. And then they liked what they saw. And voila, two years on, we are in South Africa. That's fantastic. So I suppose you're still partnering the industry, especially farmers of African agricultural landscape. I just want to find out, because you mentioned a couple of things. You looked at animal welfare, your verification body, your certification body, you're working with farmers, you're working with stakeholders, you're working with institutions. Currently in South Africa, over and above the companies that you mentioned, who are the partners that you're working with to ensure that you're delivering the goals that the organization is set out to meet? Maybe let me just break it down a little bit, right? You said your focus is animal welfare, correct? So you mentioned examples where customers could contact a greener world just to verify if things are free range or organic, etc. But like in terms of meeting your objectives within the South African landscape, how do you ensure that you're still, you know, looking off the livestock, whether it's, you know, your cattle, goats and sheep, as well as game farm, from a verification point of view as well, because there's a lot of companies in South Africa that does certification, that does verification. So how are you working with other stakeholders on the ground just to ensure that a greener world's objectives are met? That's a brilliant question, but in fact to clarify, you know, we're not necessarily a verification body, but we are a certification body. And we have a bouquet of certificates that we have, for example, animal welfare approved, and we also have certified regenerative by a greener world. We also have certified non-GMO by a greener world. Now we've just recently introduced certified organic by a greener world and certified grass-fed by a greener world. So that's now livestock and crops. And then, as I say, we have bouquet of certifications that farmers might be interested in to differentiate themselves from the market. And then we ourselves are ISO certified, rather ISO 17,025 verified. So therefore we are not a verification body, but a certified body. And then mainly ours is livestock, yes, but now we are printing into crops as well. Now your question about partners on the ground at this stage, we've been seeking to collaborate with different partners. There were ones that we were talking with, and then COVID happened, and then things went awire. And of course, you know, we trained auditors locally now because our auditor was coming from the UK to come and certify farmers here. And now things are starting afresh. And of course, the leniency now in going forward with restrictions being a little bit relaxed. Things will be moving swiftly again. So yes, indeed, there are people, there are organizations that we're engaging with, but I don't want to make mentions of names now because those conversations are still undergoing, but I hope that sort of makes it a bit clearer. No, it does. Thank you. Thank you for clarifying the certification process. And so for farmers that are listening and for businesses that want to trade directly with farmers, what's the process of certification like? You know, so I'm a livestock farmer today. I've got a thousand cattle and I want to start certifying my business or my enterprise. What type of certifications would I need or would a greener world advise? And how long is the process of certification? That's a good one. That's a good one. And especially nowadays, you know, I could have said to you, it takes three months to certify, but now with COVID and restrictions, you know, it could take anything from one month to maybe four months, depending on what the farmer has in place. But what is what is what is beautiful about the program that we have is that you can differentiate yourself as a farmer out there. Let's say, for example, you you are mixed crop farming and you are organic and you feed your your animals, you know, non GMO feed. And you also they are on grass, you know, full time all throughout the year. So you can come to an organization like ours and then have your product on the market certified non GMO certified organic certified grass fed animal welfare approved all in one in one packet of produce. Therefore, differentiating yourself from other farmers out there. And then, of course, telling your story that indeed you are farming as close as possible to nature. And that process then will take, as I say, anything between a month and four months, depending on how or what kind of certification you're looking for. And of course, the standard sound, the website Valley, it's it's an open book, you know, you can read the standards. You can you can take out a quiz to see if you are ready to be certified. And then we will advise you in advance, have these documents in place before we come out to your farm so that we make this process as quickly as possible. And of course, I must say this one, we are a nonprofit campaign. So we are not wanting to make profit out of you engaging with us. But what we will do is to cover the cost of coming to your farm. So we have we have minimal cost and those will include cost for maybe paying the auditor coming to your farm, paying the daily of the auditor and also paying maybe a flight to come to you or maybe a kilometers to come to you for fuel. So it's it's it's a nonprofit. Right, right. So just elaborate because you're saying you're a nonprofit. So when a farmer seeks out to get certification, is there certification fee that you'll charge the farmer, which will include the auditor, the travel, etc. Is that correct? That's correct. The fee that you will be charging will only to cover our cost and to also pay the auditor for the day. The auditor comes out, of course, they will need to be paid. So for an example, I'll make an example of I'm not sure now our competitors out there. I mean, I think they charge anything between 15,000 and 30,000 per audit. Just just my example, you know, but hours will not even come to 12,000 or 10,000 per audit. And even if you were to be audited on all of those that book a basket of certifications, it will never come to, let's say, maximum of 12,000 or even 10,000 for that matter. Yeah, yeah, let's talk about the animal welfare segment of what you guys do over moving away from certification. Right? What components do you guys look after around the animal welfare part? Is that it's just are you looking at how farmers are treating animals on their farms, you know, how abattoirs are treating and treating animals? So this is post-farm production. Are you also then moving your direction to game farming? Because we know that there's a lot of poaching happening in South Africa. So, you know, when I hear animal welfare, typically I'm starting to think of organizations like the WWF. So what type of work are you doing around animal welfare to be specific? That's a that's a that's a good one. We have we have the 25 page standards on animal welfare. But I can I can give an example. Let's say you you castrate the the the animals, the pigs, the you know, gold sheep and and also cattle. Then ours would be preferably no castration. But because we know that farmers must some should castrate, we will then say, do it before seven days, whereby you will find many will castrate at two months and two months. You see the cultures or levels that were already maximizing on an animal, they are growing. So it means the more pain. So when we do it within seven days, and of course, their studies value on this, it's not the seven days. It's not it's not a time suck, you know, their studies why you should do it at seven days and then the animal will feel less pain, excuse me. So that will be that will be one one one aspect. I can also talk about dehorning. For example, we wouldn't promote dehorning. And I can also talk about weak trimming when it comes to chickens. We don't necessarily, you know, advocate for that. And and of course, maybe the egg farmers out there, we wouldn't we wouldn't necessarily promote a cage system where where chickens laying hands are kept in cages will advocate for, you know, a free range set up. So those are those are kind of issues that we look at when we look at animal welfare. And who comes up with these policies? Is it a greener world internally or are they aligned with, for example, the food and agricultural organization are they aligned? And especially the fact that, you know, you've got various chapters in various countries, right? Each country has its different laws from an agricultural perspective. So when you're talking about dehorning, maybe disposing of animal carcasses, et cetera. How do you come up with these policies? Is it a greener world that comes up comes up with them internally or do you work alongside with government agencies within that specific country to ensure that, you know, you're meeting the laws and bylaws, et cetera. Great one. Great questions. Definitely, definitely internal in value. And then we have scientists that are specialists, veterinarians that are specials. For example, we wouldn't listen to someone who's not a specialist in in in in in culture, for example, whereby we have a culture specialist or veterinarian on board. So we wouldn't we wouldn't necessarily then engage someone who doesn't have vast information, vast knowledge about a species. And then, of course, it's always science based. They are animal welfare papers that are out there. And then we always engage on a quarterly basis, on a yearly basis, when we do our standards review, we look at the country that we operate in and then we see what the laws and regulations of that country are. And we don't want to trample on the regulations of the country that we operate in. But our standards, of course, will always be sort of higher than the bare minimum that that particular country that we operate in would be would have instilled. Wow. Wow. I'm finding this conversation quite interesting, Tosie, because, you know, it's amazing to learn about what other organizations are doing in the space of agriculture. And just asking maybe from a farmer's perspective, you know, what sort of incentives are out there for a farmer who adheres to the animal welfare and well-being? You know, because I know there's so much red taping put on farmers. Like, you've mentioned that you'd essentially want farmers to operate ethically to ensure that they look after their environment when they're farming, especially around animals, et cetera. So what type of incentives are out there to constantly motivate farmers to always, you know, be on the right side of the law, if to say, or to farm ethically, you know, considering the people, the planet, and obviously also making a profit at the end of the day, because farming is a business. So I know you said you're an MPO, so this might be a difficult question to answer. But what sort of incentives are out there for farmers who are farming alongside, you know, the rules or the policies that are out there regarding animal welfare? Mali, I mean, as is farmers are having a tough time. Let's let's let's face that. And and you don't want to bog them down now with another certificate or something else on top of what they need to do. But but let's also agree that the more you differentiate yourself from others, the more you would maybe have opportunities to to the market. So but when we do the same thing, all of us, it sort of gets difficult. So the incentive here is market to access or access to markets rather. And then another I would say that as we are now in in 2022, looking at climate change and what has been sort of the debates around our food production systems, you know, and and also coming up now, COP 27, we also be looking at these at these issues. We know these these these investors now and people who are wanting to put money into farming, but the projects themselves or the farming projects themselves, but we should consider now environmental, social and governance, ESGs, for example. Now, when you look at ESG as a holistic approach, you definitely have to look at how you treat your your your workers, how you treat your animals, how you treat the soil as well. You know, going forward, regenerative is the buzzword nowadays. So I'm trying maybe to paint the picture of saying the more you embrace these concepts today, the better your tomorrow as a farmer. And guess what? I mean, I'm not a farmer myself, but I do have an entrepreneurial spirit within me, I guess. I don't understand why if I were to go into chicken farming or egg farming, for example, I wouldn't understand why should I do it as my neighbor is doing it. And I wouldn't understand why should I be paid in hands if I could be paid in dollars or euros, for example. So here's an opportunity to access the European market, for example, of your produce. And then you could be ending what? Eighteen, 18 euros a kilo instead of maybe, I don't know, 10 rents a kilo in South Africa. So it's definitely I wouldn't even look at the South African market. And I mean, Africa trade now is also a free trade zone. I could be looking at other African countries, you know, to export to them rather instead of a South African market. But they are different ways. It depends, I guess, if they say it starts with the Y, I guess it depends on the farmer. What is it that they want to get out of the process? But definitely if you were to go with us, it means that you want to tell the consumer that you are farming ethically, you've been certified. Someone has come to your farm, audited you and then approved you and put a stamp of approval on your system. If you want to tell that story, of course, you can use our services. And of course, if you want to export now to the US, to Europe, and of course, you can use our services as well, depending on why you would want to embark on this journey with us. Oh, I'm glad you came to that part because, you know, when you talk farmers typically access to market must come into play. And obviously the incentive, like you mentioned, is about ensuring that you're farming today for a better tomorrow. So my last question for this evening, and I think you've explained what organization has done or does quite well is just on the part of markets. Once a farmer has been certified, can the organization link up a farmer with export markets? Because you've got various chapters around the globe. Do you assist farmers take their produce across South African borders by any chance? That's a great one. And unfortunately, we don't do it. It's not in our policy, but it doesn't necessarily mean that I cannot talk to my counterpart in London, for example, and say, hey, Jason, here in South Africa, she's just got certified by the way, you know, she wants to export her cheese to the UK. Can you talk to the buyers at Tesco or someone there so that we can see if we can assist her? So it's something that we can do offline, but it's not necessary. Yeah. Wow. Dossy, thank you so much for your time today. I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation and I hope our audience found it quite informative. And please, just let us know where we could get in touch with you for any livestock farmers or organizations that have an interest within the livestock space and maybe just certification bodies or other industry affiliated organizations that want to work with you guys. So where can we find your details? Any social media handles? Any important email addresses that you want to share? Please, I think now would be the right time. Oh, awesome. Of course. So for sure. We have a website, a greenerworld.org.za. Make sure that it has a dot at the end so that you can get to the South African chapter. Otherwise, if you say greenerworld.org, it will take you to the US chapter or probably the UK one. Yes. So make sure there's a dot at the end. And of course, email address is info at a greenerworld.org.za. And I don't even mind sharing my my conduct details, but it is 074974937. That could be my my cell phone number. Guys can WhatsApp me if they are interested. And and of course, yeah, we'll be we'll be happy to ensure that we we are on this journey together. Awesome. Thank you so much for your time. That was Tosi Zogufa, executive director of a greenerworld. South Africa. And if you've missed this conversation, you can catch our conversation playing on our YouTube channel on the private property farming podcast. The playlist is farming podcast and the channel is private property. And be sure to catch us once again, where we're going to air another episode. Take care.