 Welcome to the Asian Review. I'm your host, Bill Sharp. Our show today, Taiwan's New Southbound Policy. And joining us via Skype from Taipei, Taiwan, is Ms. Natalie Soh, who is an award-winning radio host and producer, and who, at the present moment, hosts a show on Radio Taiwan International. So welcome, Natalie. It's great to have you with us. And it's great to be here, Bill. Great. Well, Radio Taiwan International, a lot of our viewers might not be familiar with RTI, so could you give us an idea of what it's all about and what its mission is and that kind of thing? Well, it's basically the National Radio Station of Taiwan, similar to Voice of America. We broadcast in 13 languages. And we've been here since 1928. We're going on our 90th anniversary. So it actually started in Nanjing when the ROC was in China. And they took, you know, the radio station wherever they went throughout the war. But they brought it to Taiwan. And now, in the past, it was used more for political and propaganda during the war. But now we host a variety of programs on English. We have music, culture, food, politics. I have a program about China, a program about Taiwan. We have a variety of hosts who do all kinds of interesting programs in English. And then we have them in 12 other languages. So it's a modern day, you know, international radio station. We broadcast on a shortwave, medium wave, and also on the internet. Wow. That's a pretty sophisticated operation. And while I was in Taiwan, I was lucky enough to have Natalie invite me on to her show. So I know that the facility is a very nice one. Well, let's get to the nitty gritty here. Taiwan's new southbound policy. What's that all about? Well, you know, it's basically President Tsai Ing-wen is trying to diversify Taiwan's economic trade because it doesn't want to, she doesn't want to rely that much on China, which, you know, about 20% of Taiwan's trade is with China. And about 13% is with Southeast Asian nations. So basically, because China has not been so friendly, Taiwan, President Tsai is trying to, you know, find other economic partners. So she's working with the governments in Southeast Asia, also five countries in South Asia, also Australia and New Zealand. These are the target countries of the new southbound policy. So the government subsidizing, you know, investments there, they're increasing trade as much as possible trade has increased since the beginning of this policy, increasing tourism, which is also increased, trying to promote more cultural exchanges. They're offering a lot of scholarships, about 60,000 to students from Southeast Asia. We also have a lot of immigrants from Southeast Asia, mostly marriage immigrants and foreign workers. So Taiwan is also working to be a more friendly place for them. They've come, especially the marriage immigrants, over the past decade, I actually did a couple documentaries targeting these stories about these mostly women who come here as wives to Taiwanese men. I also did documentary about the foreign workers. And sometimes, you know, the challenges they face, also sometimes they even get trafficked, exploited and things like that. And how Taiwan is working very hard to protect them and to help them. So this is a whole new population actually in Taiwan that's becoming part of the society and especially their children are becoming, they're growing up. And the government wants to raise them to be a bridge, you know, to Southeast Asia. So they're offering now, you know, a lot of schools in elementary and junior high have Southeast Asian languages. Wow, that's amazing. Well, let me ask you this. In the past, Taiwan has tried this sort of thing, during the Lidongwei era. And it didn't work particularly well. Why should it work now? Well, you know, I think that these countries actually, they're growing. They have a growth rate of about 5% to 7%. I think it's growth rate over the next 10 years. So I'm not, I don't know if it's how well it's going to work. But I think that it's it's broadening, you know, Taiwan's economic reach and reliance, you know, and expanding into different countries. Whether they can totally replace China is a totally different question. I mean, trade has increased maybe about 17% or so. There is definitely some amount of growth, but whether that can be enough to face the challenges that, you know, China is giving Taiwan, that's another question. You know, when China is pulling its tourists, it's squeezing Taiwan's international space, you know, they're not very happy with President Tsai Ing-wen and how she does not recognize the 1992 consensus. Right. So this is the government's way of trying to find another way out, right? Well, you know, it's interesting to me that Taiwan was so dependent on Chinese tourists. And of course, that's one of the leverages or one of the levers that the mainland has been using against Taiwan, right? Well, we're going to reduce the number of mainland tourists and can go to Taiwan. But you know, I think the way Taiwan responded was really interesting. They just liberalized all the visa laws for people from Southeast Asia and also for Korea. And now the overall number of tourists in Taiwan is actually higher than it was before. Right. There's a slight increase. So a lot of them are from Southeast Asia, actually. Right. So I mean, you know, her efforts, I think, have helped. We don't know, you know, in China, it's such a major country, we don't know how well this will hold out against in the long term. It's China's policies. It's definitely, I mean, it's the positive direction, especially as, you know, Taiwan, like I said, they, we have a growing population from Southeast Asia and many of them are now residents, you know, and new citizens. So using this diversity in an economic sense, it makes a lot of sense. It seems that Taiwan, like a lot of, like Japan, South Korea and China itself has a bit of a demographic challenge in that the society is aging. And so there's sort of a lack of younger people. But if you open the doors of immigration from Southeast Asia to Taiwan, then it helps to, how should we say, balance out society. It does a little bit because a lot of Taiwanese actually don't give birth to a lot of babies. We have a very low birth rate, around one. Whereas Southeast Asian women are more statistically, you know, liable to give birth to two, three or more children. You know, that's just the way they are. So that actually, I guess, does help the population a bit. South's the demographic problem. Well, why is it that women in Taiwan don't seem to be too interested in having children these days? What was your question? Why? Yeah, it seems that there's a sort of a relative lack of enthusiasm in Taiwan to have children. That's true. I actually did a report on that for Time Magazine. There's been some research into why. There's literally two reasons. Young people or those who are able to have children are afraid to spend the money and the time, you know, losing their freedom and losing their money. They're expensive to raise children. And it's a big responsibility. So some people don't want to. I have quite a few friends, colleagues, who don't even want to get married because they've seen their friends get divorces or have affairs. And then I'm talking about women. And then some women or couples don't want to have children because it's such trouble. And so as for the independent women, that's why there's so many new South Asian women coming because a lot of independent women who don't want to marry are well educated. They're financially independent. But that leaves a big gap for some men who are not as well educated. And so they go abroad to poor countries with women. And there was a whole industry that profiled over the past decade. What's the divorce rate, though, between Taiwanese men and women from Southeast Asia? Is the divorce rate pretty consistent with the overall divorce rate in Taiwan? Or is it higher? Or is it lower? Or do you have any idea about that? Tax divorce rate is fairly high. I don't know the exact specifics. But what I do know, I mean, I think it's probably about the same or maybe a little bit higher. A lot of these marriages are kind of based on economics. If they're going through to a matchmaker, they probably don't even know each other. But because the women want a better life for themselves, or maybe their family's back home or very poor, and they usually are able to get a nice dowry or, I mean, they're able to get a nice sum of money for marrying. A man who gets a family money either through a matchmaker or otherwise. They solve their economic problems a lot of times. So a lot of the women, I interviewed a family of four sisters who married Taiwanese men. And the first lady went through this matchmaker. All four of these Vietnamese sisters married Taiwanese men? Four Vietnamese sisters, sorry. Okay. And they told me that she did it. She went through this, you know, matchmaking in this association where she was kind of like paraded, you know, with all these other women, and the Taiwanese men would come in and just pick the one they liked. And when she got chosen, she said, at one point she felt happy because she was chosen, but on the other end, and she felt like she was like a piece of meat, you know, the way she was being treated. And it was kind of humiliating. But the reason she went through this is because she really loved her parents, and they were very poor, extremely poor, and she knew that her doing this would help them financially. And in the beginning, her marriage worked out pretty well. But then later on, when her husband was unemployed, he started beating her. And he beat her so bad that, you know, broke her rib and she divorced him. She has a child and she's got custody of that child. But in the meanwhile, her other sisters all married Taiwanese men. And that was, you know, partly because in the beginning, she said it was going well. And this totally resolved her parents' economic situation. They live in a really nice house, three-story house now in Vietnam. And so in the end of hearing all of their stories, I asked this first sister, do you think it was worth it, you know, for all that you've been through? She said, you know, it's worth it because my parents, they're doing great now, you know, financially. And we're not worried about them. You know, I think I missed something there. One of the sisters got divorced, but the other three stayed married or they, all four stayed married? Two got divorced. One was because of abuse. One was because of an affair. And two stayed married. I also talked to the other sisters that were married. And one of them, you know, the husband is a really nice guy. He kept on praising this sister about how smart she is. She also learned Taiwanese. So some of these marriages work out quite well. I think it really depends on the man, I think, because if they treat her well, you know, the woman usually is more traditional, willing to work hard and live life. Now, some men, because they use money to obtain this marriage, may think that they own this woman and treat her like a slave or a servant. Yeah, that was the reason this question just before we go to break. The two women that got divorced, did they stay in Taiwan or go back to Vietnam? Stayed in Taiwan. Well, because she told me the wages are about 10 times higher. So she was planning to stay here until she makes enough money. She's raising her daughter. She works two or three jobs. And then they're going to move back to Vietnam. So, okay, I think we'll take a break here. You're watching Asian Review. I'm your host, Bill Sharp. Our guest today is Ms. Natalie So, who's joining us from Taipei, Taiwan via Skype. We've been talking about Taiwan's new Southbound policy and as an extension of that, the immigration from Southeast Asia that Taiwan has been experiencing and benefiting from. And we'll be right back, so don't go away. I'm DeSoto Brown, the co-host of Human Humane Architecture, which is seen on Think Tech Hawaii every other Tuesday at 4 p.m. And with the show's host, Martin Despeng, we discuss architecture here in the Hawaiian Islands and how it not only affects the way we live, but other aspects of our life, not only here in Hawaii, but internationally as well. So join us for Human Humane Architecture every other Tuesday at 4 p.m. on Think Tech Hawaii. Welcome back to Asian Review. I'm your host, Bill Sharp. My guest today is Ms. Natalie So, award-winning radio host and producer. She's joining us from Taiwan via Skype. We've been talking about Taiwan's new Southbound policy and I think we've pretty well covered that. We're going to go on to some other topics now that often are associated with Taiwan. And one is, I think unfortunately, that Taiwan gets slighted in international news, but whenever there's a brawl or fisticuffs on the floor of the leaf IU in the legislature, that's sure to be spread all over the world almost instantly. So Natalie, why is it that Taiwan has this reputation of having a rather cantankerous legislature that's given the fisticuffs and how should I say, general disorder? Is there any end to this? You know, I thought it's very strange when I watched them too. The reason they do that, and this has always been the case in the very beginning, is because it gets attention. You guys hear about it all the way in Hawaii. The attention of whoever wants to be on stage. So they will yell and fight and get on top of each other so that the media will report on it. And also they show their constituents that they are fighting for their stances. So Taiwan's media is very sensational here. We have about seven 24-hour news stations. So they love coverage like this. But it's become just a media show. People do it not because they're that passionate about a particular issue, just because they want to get attention. And they do get the attention. And you're paying attention. Well, you know, sometimes in Taiwan, I'm talking to people about this situation. And they would say, oh, you know, what will the foreigners think? You know, why were we in? What kind of impression will they have? Well, to me, I thought Enweth sort of thought it was kind of cool because it's so much different than the past, the bad old days of authoritarianism. But on the other hand, it's getting kind of old. And I sort of, you know, trying to rationalize this, well, you know, young democracies, they go through these stages. Like when the U.S. started out, there was some pretty brutal fights on the floor of the U.S. Senate. In 1950s after World War II, when the Japanese diet was getting back on its feet, there was some pretty nasty fisticuffs that broke out there. And of course Korea, South Korea has had its fair share of this sort of thing. Although my understanding is that there's some pretty stringent laws now in place in South Korea. So if you were a member of the National Assembly and you're fighting on the floor of the National Assembly, you could be in some fairly serious trouble. And it seems that you probably know this better than I do. But Taiwan has similar laws, but they're never enforced. I think it's become part of the culture. It's become part of that way, the way things are done in the legislature, unfortunately. I mean, it is really embarrassing because, you know, the majority of the population is very well educated, is very polite, but our legislature has given the brawls crazy antics. You know, that's interesting as you say that because, you know, one of the ways in which Taiwan garners international support, which is not obviously not easy for Taiwan to do, is because it's a democracy. However, when you see people attempting to hit others over the head with a chair, that sort of diminishes the impact, the positive impact of that. And once in a while, I know people, you know, they get fairly seriously injured. And sometimes security guards who try to break up these fights, they get injured. I mean, it's pretty messy. You know, on the other hand, how could people be upset about the sunflower movement occupying the legislature if all these legislators fight each other? It's true. I guess the students are learning from the leaders. The impact of negative example. Yeah, I guess you're right. I think one is also, I mean, like you said, we're a young democracy. So people are used to protesting, protests all the time in front of the legislature, all kinds of groups, you know, these days, the issues are pension reform, the labor reform and all kinds of issues, whenever there's issues, there's going to be all kinds of protests. And I think they're taking advantage of freedom of speech and the media, free willing media that we have here. You know, during my year at academia Seneca, the Institute of Taiwan History, I did a lot of research on Taiwan political polarization. And, you know, it said, you know, like if one looks at the, how should we say the growth of Taiwan democracy and the different stages it's gone through. It's like a lot of people think that, well, a lot of people in Taiwan, well, democracy is elections or democracy is the ability, as you just suggested, to go out into the streets and riot. And Taiwan does both of those well, if you want to put it that way. But there's more to it than that. And my hope would be as time progresses that civil society will become more mature and Taiwan democracy will blossom more. Okay. Well, now, you mentioned in an email that, according to different polling, expats really love Taiwan as a place to live. But why is that? Well, you know, the number, I interview a lot of expats in my work. I do radio interviews in English. And the first thing people say are the people. People here are really friendly. So, you know, it's very different than what you see in our legislature. I mean, they're extremely friendly, especially to foreigners. I wonder if you experience that while you're here, Bill. You know, they'll get go out of their way to take you somewhere if you're lost or to accompany you or inviting you to their homes. They're really hospitable, and it will take you to different sites. So, they actually really enjoy having foreigners here. It's kind of like your special presence. So, even if you're a total stranger, you can feel that people are excited that you're here and they're very friendly. So, I think that's one thing that foreigners enjoy that probably that's the friendliness or maybe the special treatments, you know, that people give them, the special honor and friendliness. I think also it's an easy place to live. I mean, transportation and it's a very walkable, like typeways, a very walkable city. Transportation is great, very clean, very inexpensive. The cost of living, except for the housing, is about half of the United States. So, usually an expat salary will go a long way here. And healthcare is also very good and very inexpensive. So, and if they're getting a good package in terms of education, you know, the international schools here are good as well. So, I think the expats of the food also is great. And there are a lot of places to see, you know, there's a lot of hiking, there's hundreds of plumbers of cycling paths, there's a lot of beaches so people like to get outdoors, there's a lot to see and do. So, I think that expats, because of their resources, you know, they usually have a better salary than the local Taiwanese, much better salary. So, they enjoy life here a lot more. They're living in better homes, they have a lot more income and everything here is a lot less expensive than the United States and then the people are very friendly. So, I think all these factors make it quite a friendly place for expats. Right, right. I tend to agree with that. Now, as a Chinese American, how is it living in Taiwan? Well, you know, I'm not on an expat package. So, it's different. And the salaries here are not that high. I mean, a lot of people, local people would a lot of them want to go abroad because they want to get higher salaries. As a Chinese American, I'm kind of in the middle, you know, between the local and expat in terms of lifestyle and otherwise. So, people are friendly. And I like the convenience, the walkability, the aspect of it, you know. It's easy and fun to get around. So, easy to meet your friends in any part of the city. So, it's become more and more international. You know, I've been here for 10 years and it's always upgrading transportation at work. And I live in a nice part of town that varies into walks. And within my home, there's like 10 convenience stores within a five-minute walk, maybe 50 places to shop, you know. Do people in Taiwan expect you as a Chinese American to act in a purely Taiwanese, Chinese way? Or do they realize that you grew up in America and there might be some difference? Well, I think they realize there's a difference, especially because I mean, I speak Chinese fluently but I still have an accent. I have an American accent, so they'll notice it right away pretty much and they'll ask me about it. So, you know, they understand that I grew up in a totally different environment. I see things differently, but they're still very, you know, friendly. They're not like, why do you speak Chinese with money? And usually, if an American is willing to speak Chinese, they're very happy about that. Oh, your Chinese is so good. Yeah, I know. Even if you say something really simple, oh, your Chinese is so good. Yeah, that's almost embarrassing, actually. Say, well, yeah, I studied Chinese a long time. I still get a long ways to go. Yeah. So, okay, let's say the hypothetical situation. We have a corporate executive who's about to, who's being transferred to Taiwan. What kind of advice would you give them? About living in Taiwan, adjusting to Taiwan, that kind of thing. To do in Taiwan? You know, there's so many things that I would, you know, encourage them to be adventurous, you know, about what they eat, about the places they go, you know, don't be in their own little expat bubble. I mean, there's so many great restaurants and places to eat and night markets to discover the local scene, to make some friends who are local. And also, to travel throughout Taiwan, there's all kinds of places, mountains and nations. And cycling is great to get outdoors. So there's a lot to do, a lot to see. And I would encourage them to be adventurous and also to make friends about the backgrounds, especially with some local people, to get to know them. I think they're very friendly and nice people to be friends with. That's good advice. I would agree with that. And I quite agree with you too about why Taiwan is so popular with expats. Yeah, my own experience really coincides with a lot of what you said. Well, we're getting down here close to the end, but let's take a minute or two to just briefly talk about Tsai Ing-wen's presidency. What kind of grade would you give her? Oh, well. I've just been told we really have 30 seconds. What an unfair question to ask at the end. I think it's very difficult to be the president of Taiwan. You're facing China, and China's relations have definitely deteriorated since she's been in office. But it's probably because she didn't want to recognize the 1992 consensus. So China has been taking away Taiwan's international space tourism, and she's sticking to her principles on that. She's also trying to do some challenging reform on the local front, labor and pension, which she's definitely going to have people against you before losing out. So these issues need to be tackled, but it's not easy. So I give her credit for tackling some of the really difficult issues personally. I mean, some of these issues were sort of kicked down the road by the Kuomintang during its era. Definitely, especially pension. It's very unreasonable on many fronts. It's not a pension that some of these governments are getting. And to take it that way, though, of course there are going to be protests about it. Labor is the same issue. I mean wages are low, and she's trying to help the workers. But then now the businesses are going to be losing out. If they're not making profits, then what is that going to be? So it's definitely a difficult situation. Well, it looks like we're about out of time here. I really want to thank you for joining us today. And I want to thank you and our audience for tuning in. And we'll see you again next week when my guest will be retired US Navy captain Carl Schuster, who is a Hawaii Pacific University faculty member these days, and also still works as a government contractor doing security analysis. We'll see you then.