 All right, good morning, everyone. It is March 12th, Friday, and this is the Senate Health and Welfare Committee. This morning, and it is crossover day, so we're gonna try to get to some closure on as much as we can. And Jen Carvey is here this morning on S24 and 117. So I think I'd like to begin with S24 if we could, committee. I know that some of you have expressed your concerns about the bill and that's just fine. That's your prerogative. But I thought it would be helpful to have a vote on the bill and then be able to move it along to the full Senate so that then we can get it, theoretically, get it to economic development. So I'll just open it up for discussion at this point on S24, Senator Cummings. Yeah, I apologize. I missed some of it yesterday, but we passed this, we passed a similar bill last year and I voted for it. As I remember, it was not easy sledding on the floor of the Senate. And I'm getting the impression that this bill is more extensive or slightly different. And I just need to know, is it different? And what's been added? And then we talked about GMOs, that was labeling. This is banning. And I mean, we spent hours talking about tomato cans and... We're not labeling. No, we're not labeling, we're banning the sale. Wait, wait, what are we talking about? I'm sorry, I'm confused. S24, S24. S24 is tobacco? Banning, flavor, tobacco, product and even the first thing on our agenda. I've said where I am with tobacco. All right, thanks Ruth. I was like, wait, tomatoes, is that part of, is that a flavor? I didn't know what that is, but the taste is off the flavor. They do have BPA lining their cans. It's definitely crossover week. Just late last night. So are you asking that question about flavors, Senator Cummings? No. Okay, thank you. But just a heads up, those are just I got it. What other states are doing? Okay, yep, all right. Okay, yes. And on the S20, you may have missed that testimony where there was a comparison by Jen Duggan. I think it was. Okay, then I can find that. I'm meeting the bill. Yeah. But let me, if it's Jen Duggan, I can find it. But we're not on that bill right now. Right, so. I've already talked about the other one. So. Yes, you have. And Josh has expressed his opinion on the bill. So. Senator Lines, I told the committee out of respect for everyone that I would give a little bit of commentary as to why I was voting no on S24 if you'd like it or. Sure. I have literally lost sleep over this bill to be honest with you, thinking about what to do and which direction to go and having children of my own and being sensitive to temptations that youth might be lured to. But I come back to the fact that I think that before I was in the state Senate, the Senate passed then the legislature passed relaxed rules around marijuana. And I probably would have been a no vote in that direction. It probably would have guided me towards a no vote on this. But I think the way I look at it is if we're going to say and loosen the restrictions on one, then it's tough for me to say we're gonna outlaw some of these other products. And I also, somebody in one of our testimonies said this quote that I wrote down. People, especially adults have the right to make a bad decision. And I'm not a smoker or a tobacco user, but I think adults do have the right if they choose to and they want a flavored cigar or a chewing tobacco or a menthol cigarette. I think they have the right to do that, unfortunately. I also heard from a couple of these smoke shops who indicated that where youth are getting this product is online and largely from other countries and China is shipping it. And they didn't feel that anything that we passed here that was just gonna hurt the businesses rather than help the problem because kids will just continue to order it online. So for a number of reasons in the menthol portion, that's why I'm a no vote on this. I am very sensitive to it. I hope no youth ever take up this product and use it. It's terrible stuff. But I think at the end of the day, that's where I stand as a no. Okay, thank you. Anyone else wanna comment? Senator Hardy. Thank you, Senator Lines. And Senator Taranzini, I definitely respect your opinion as I do Senator Cummings, obviously this is a tough bill. It was a tough bill for us last year and I was on the fence last year, but I was not on this committee. So what really changed my mind or convinced me that this was an important bill to vote for was all of the testimony we had and particularly the testimony about the racial injustices associated with menthol cigarettes and flavored tobacco. In terms of voting for cannabis and the legalization of cannabis, one of the strong arguments and one of the main reasons that I voted for that bill and was a co-sponsor of that bill is because legalizing it enables us to regulate it. And that is what we are doing here with tobacco and cigarettes is we are regulating it. And one of the things we did in the cannabis bill was to prohibit flavors. So I think this is very consistent with our actions on cannabis. I also know that, and I'll let the chair speak to this but that there's a sort of path for this bill that will mean that it has other eyes on it before it comes to the floor. And while I know that this won't be an easy vote for many of our colleagues, I think it's an important public health measure that we need to take in order to not only protect young people in Vermont, but to ensure that our public health laws and regulations are racially equitable and that we are protecting all Vermonters from the harms of tobacco addiction. So I know this has been a tough bill and I have been on the fence, but I am supportive of this bill and we'll be voting for it. Thank you. Thank you, Senator Hardy, Senator Hooker. Thank you, Madam Chair. I'll be voting for this bill as well. I really feel that the marketing of these flavored products has been directed specifically to youth. And this is something that's unconscionable, I think, from the manufacturers. I remember the discussions on Joe Camel and how Joe Camel was more recognizable than Mickey Mouse at the time that it was allowed. And I'm looking at the myriad of flavors that are offered to kids, really, bubblegum, skittles, unicorn puke. I mean, these things I can't imagine are directed at adults and the colorful packaging that's so close to candy packaging. This is stuff that I think is marketing to a specific segment of the population. Menthol, Menthol's been around for a long time. But again, the racial inequities and what we heard about the marketing towards African-American communities was really compelling. So I'll be voting for this. Thank you. Thank you. I think that you, Senator Cummings. Yes, I have an opposite reaction to the racial inequity. The tobacco, and I said the other day, I will ban anything from adults. I don't have, for children, I don't have a problem and I voted for banning all the flavored vapes. I do have a problem with Menthol because we have a lot of seriously addicted people. And I personally, let's face it, the tobacco industry has targeted everyone. Remember Virginia Slims and you've come a long way, baby. I could get a premium selling old magazines because they have these elegant Chesterfield ads with the sophisticated woman. And for me, because racial equity is kind of what we're talking about these days to say that we're doing this because black people tend to smoke more cigarettes than white people. Maybe it's because their lifestyle is so tense. Maybe it's because of all the things the things that they have to put up with being afraid of the police stopping you for having your tail light out. I'm not to say it's because they're targeted and advertising implies that people of color can't make decisions about what's good for them, that they're more vulnerable. And I'm not comfortable with that. I think they can make decisions about what's good for them. I think that we should ban everything for children. I think we need to put a lot more money into cessation and prevention. But I don't, I think especially now when people are living such stressful lives to remove menthol is cool. All right, thank you. Senator, we get it. Thank you. Josh, one more comment and then I'd like to say something. Yeah, thank you, Senator Lines. I would also say that if menthol, it sounds like we have the votes for the bill, but if menthol was stripped out of it, this would be a different ballgame for me and I would be much more in a position, I think, to support it. So just for the record, the menthol is the sort of the deal breaker. All right, thank you. Yeah, that's kind of the perception that many people have about the bill. I do want to point out, before I'd say anything further on the bill itself, there is a letter that we have received from members of the BIPOC Health Justice Committee in Wyndham County that is on our webpage. And I think it would be helpful to look at that because it does identify the relationship between the use of menthol and flavors and our BIPOC community. And in fact, one of the data pieces that's in there, it has a lot of the data pieces regarding percentages of smokers as a result of what we can only assume to be targeted marketing. But the letter also has the last sentence of the second paragraph, which I think is very compelling, that in response to the data that is in the letter, at the 2016 National Convention, the NAACP supported a resolution to restrict menthol sales. That to me is very telling about the relationship between our BIPOC community and the use of menthol. For me, it's, I think, of course, it's a significant public health issue. It results in some terrible health outcomes for folks who use these products. And in particular, the use of menthol in masking the toxic and painful effects when tobacco smoke goes down through the airway. And then finally, the cost, you talk about the cost of not having menthol to smoke. And people who can also, and the comment that I've heard is that menthol is used to quit, but there's no data to indicate that. It just simply makes it feel better to keep smoking. That's what we've heard from our national experts on this. We also know that the cost of flavors and tobacco in our healthcare environment is $348 million annually. That's a lot of money in Medicaid dollars. So all to me, and I understand how difficult this is, I completely respect everyone's ability to think for themselves on this. We understand that the marijuana bill that was passed last year, bans flavors for within marijuana that sold through the regulated system. And there's a reason for that. So we don't wanna lead people into addiction. And we would like to end the addiction that's there. So I'm obviously supporting the bill. And I do think if we could take a vote on the bill, if there would be a motion to take a vote on the bill. And that, as I said before, Senator Hardy, you're the reporter, is that right? If we do vote on it. Yes. So let's, is there a motion? I move to, are you ready, clerk? I shouldn't have, I'm sorry. I forgot our clerk. Sorry, Senator Hardy. Yes, Senator Lanz, I'm ready at this time. Okay, good. Do you actually have a piece of paper, Josh? Or are you, is it an electorate? You do, okay. I love it. It says S24. That is so official. That's awesome. Okay. I move that we vote to pass S24. Is that the motion I'm supposed to make, Jen? Ken, what is the draft number we should be using? I think it's just the bill is introduced. You didn't make any changes to it. Yeah, as introduced. Does that make it 1.1, Jen? No, it just makes it S24. Just makes it S24, okay. Yeah, if you need to put a version or something I would put as introduced. Okay. You need a second, Jen. I don't think there's a second required. People often do that, right. No. Okay, Senator Lanz, would you like me to proceed? Any discussion? We've had discussion, but if anyone has a last. Okay. Senator Karen. Thank you. At this time, I'll call the roll for S24 as introduced. Myself, no. Senator Cummings. Senator Hardy. Yes. Senator Hooker. Yes. And Senator Lyons. Yes. All right. I have a vote of a three to two to advance S24 is introduced. All right. Thank you very much, Josh. Senator Hardy. So Senator Hardy and Jen, this is for the vote for both of you. So if you can get the bill with the vote and the reporter, this would be for Ruth, for Senator Hardy. If you can get the bill up to, up, I'm sorry. I'm still. We'll get it up to the secretary's office before we're on the floor. Then I will be able to ask to have it transferred to economic development today. Okay, I'll email the secretary right now. And with you have to send them the bill. Okay, I can just link to the original bill, right, Jen? Is that fine? Okay. Thanks. I think that's fine. Perfect. That's good. And then you don't have to run out the door and up the stairs while we're still in committee. There's some efficiency to zooming. All right. Good. Thank you committee. I know this is difficult and I appreciate the difficulty and but I value your honesty. So thank you.