 We hello dear audience wherever you are right now watching probably from home I'm happy to welcome here our guests for today's second panel on Can there be a global art? It's already the fourth day of the school of resistance at the Academy there Künste in Berlin and I would like to welcome Rabia Morey Milo Rao and online Leah Rodriguez and Marj di Muavat. It's a pleasure that you join our panel today Perhaps some introductory words about the school of resistance itself. We conceive it as a place for experts of change who think and rethink our strategies and our methods and And it's a place for discussing what we should be learning and what we should be unlearning and I think particularly for the topic of today And this is a good way to start Also, I would like to refer to the place we're sitting right now the last couple of days to we're discussing a lot tribunals, trials, courtrooms in many of the works you've done Milo this plays a big role and yesterday Larastal in a panel on Transnational Injustice, Justice spoke about her project Europe on Trial and somehow The three of us here and the two of you who are joining We are putting global art production on trial. We are discussing How we have been operating so far and what was problematic and what we might be unlearning and learning in this pandemic situation Perhaps let me start with introducing our guests Lira Rodriguez is a choreographer She studied classical ballet and history at the University of Sao Paulo and worked for several years in Maguey Maran's company in France in 1990 she founded the Lira Rodriguez company the Dancers Rodriguez has always combined artistic work with social commitment Something we will be talking about today This concern culminated in 2004 in the decision to move to the center of her company's work to the Favela Marais on the outskirts of Rio de Janeiro The cultural center and dance school. She founded there is probably one of the topics we will be discussing today But she moved out. It's a prolific right of our times played on many stages and theater director Muavad directed the center Sontre Nationales Art in Ottawa, Canada from 2007 to 2012 served as an artistic advisor for the Festival Davignon and in the same capacity for the Grand Théâtre in Nantes Muavad has won several prizes and is since 2016 director of the Théâtre Nationales de la Colline in Paris Andrabien Moret, who my right is director, actor, visual artist, writer He works at the interface of performance and visual arts in his performances He often combines real everyday material with fictional narratives that he developed himself as an author and writer of his performances combining aesthetics and political research And we know each other from particularly from your work at the Michna Kammerspiele for instance kill the audience or owe to joy, but there are also many other performance lecture performance with which you have traveled the world for instance sand in the ice or pixelated revolution and to my left Milo Rau and who probably goes with a short introduction He's the director, artistic director of IPM and NTGENT and Has been here at several panels already. Hello to everyone After this rather long introduction, I would to ask a question to everyone perhaps starting with you Vashti Where were you when the first lockdown of the arts institutions happened last year? I was in Strasbourg I was getting ready to play I was to perform a show that I had written and that I had directed and that I was also performing in And what about you, Lea? A very beautiful full of work that will provide our survival in Brazil and everything was cancelled. I was actually in France and I was able to send back in a very tight moment Everybody to Brazil and I stayed in Europe and I'm here one year now out of my home I didn't know that And and you Rabia Yeah, I was in Leipzig Preparing for a performance with my partner Lina Masdalani It was actually one week before the opening and we had to go back home to Berlin And it fits quite well, Lea, what you said about you being Stacked here in Europe with what Milo and me probably can narrate about this moment. Perhaps Milo you want us to share Where you were when Lea I was in the in the in the north of Brazil at that very moment in Maraba starting to rehearse for Antigone there with local actors and and Yeah, it stopped and then somehow over Sao Paulo we could go back in a week to To Europe and then I was stuck in Cologne And and I myself to complete the picture I was in Sao Paulo for for a festival And we were showing farm fatale of Philippe Ken and it was really the theaters were already closed in Europe, but we were still performing The question that why the reason I'm asking and perhaps Lea you want to reply to this is what does this tell about the way we were Working before the pandemic how we were working at different places on a global scale and Perhaps also in which way this might have been problematic because I perceived this very short period for a festival in Sao Paulo traveling there showing it the technicians don't even see the city and then they return as something quite Problematic and perhaps now it's the moment to reflect upon this So how did we work on an international scale before the pandemic and what was problematic about it? Yeah, did you hear the question? Okay, I I heard the question. I didn't know that I was me to begin Well Is a huge Subject, let's say like this Nowadays we hear a lot of artists that say, ah, let's do something for the environment not fly anymore normally artists from the north from rich countries that have a lot of work that Really doesn't need to to fly actually, no, but we artists of the south It especially in Brazil. We don't have any money to support our work The all the money is in Europe in these rich countries. So we have to come here in order to survive there So this is a tricky Thing but I think we should look a little bit larger to this subject Not only I am not going to flight etc. Because at least for us From the south we really need what you have in Europe. You have support you have a Result of many artists institutions that we don't have so how can we survive there without this and this is I I've been doing many years Going in Europe going back to Brazil taking money from Europe, you know, the the other way around that normally Was like this So take the rich the richness that you have in Europe and take to Brazil to promote Art there to survive there to make survive not only my artistic Work because this is not the the main point in my life But to to to make a project in the favela work art center there to give a way to living for many many people there to Support the dance school with more than 300 students. So we need support and money for the for this I'm sure we will return to this aspect of hacking the system in order to mobilize solidarity Perhaps to you Vashti also the same question. How did we collaborate on an international scale before the pandemic and perhaps also? What was problematic about it? It is There is the fact that It is the question that you ask I think that It is not only from Europe for the reasons that So it is me who hears you It is me who is listening to you I think it is We can we can all I see you I apologize Okay, okay We start again. I was saying that I Was saying that building on what Leah was saying the question that you asked is a question that can only be posed From the point of view of Europe you have to be European to ask this kind of question because indeed it is very complex Europe is precisely the locus of Financial power with regards to artistic creation And I won't repeat what Leah said, but I will speak from the perspective of Quebec where I was Largely educated even if now I work largely in France in Quebec. There is a festival that is very important that you may might know It's the theater festival of the Americas If that festival hadn't existed it would have been entirely impossible for artists from Quebec To confront themselves and compare themselves to the global artists If artists of South America hadn't come to Montreal if this festival hadn't invited Alain Plattel Nina gawa I Afghan artists African artists South American artists if these companies hadn't been able to move by playing to Montreal An entire generation of artists from Quebec would not have been able to evolve Because Quebec is a small society in terms of population Surrounded In a little island surrounded by Anglophone Areas and we could have ended up dying Or becoming somehow incestuous artistically by keeping working together with the same people by having always the same points of view and It's due and thanks to the Foreign artists that many artists from Quebec have been able to develop Their art because they have been confronted with Artistic forms and ideas that were extremely powerful and have been able to call into question their own work of art if starting from today Artists stop moving for all kinds of probably good reasons Artists of the country that we go to lose the possibility to confront themselves with other art What is interesting is that if we were having this debate in Montreal, I think that we would not be asking this question Have you also said it's a problem like a complex difficult question. I'm raising Yeah, it's difficult because like I think like to answer of How is it going today during the pandemic? We have to go through how it was before like and how it changed maybe I don't want to go before it just like to To talk about something for me. I think it's interesting is like Especially for the first Six months of the pandemic There was something very noticeable and to recognize it is that The center of like is as Europe as the center as watch you are saying It was decentralized With the pandemic and this is actually created something of Global equality and the world like for the first time for example in Lebanon, you know, like in October There was a revolution in October 19 2019 and then the pandemic came to like fading it out like it's like Repressing it in addition to the to the to the authorities in Lebanon, but at the same time there was something for the Lebanese Fine, I felt it also is that for the first time we don't feel that we are alone facing this This enemy. It's actually the whole world together and One thing that I would like to talk about is that during a year Maybe more or less The quality of art and What artists are presenting was not important anymore during this year. What was important is that this solidarity Between all the artists and the world and especially the countries that were really suffering for example, Italy at that time It was like a big issue in Europe and in the world And then Spain and France and like of course a lot a lot of of countries But it was like for the first time I felt myself like it doesn't matter the quality of the work Like if I'm presenting of someone of like an artist or like a festival that Sometimes I'm not convinced with with the quality or like quality intellectually or Like practically so it was not really important the important thing is just like To have this solidarity with each other and this is something we didn't have it before at least for me I was all the time Questioning all the time why I'm participating in this festival why they are inviting me From where the money is coming. Should I accept should not I accept? What is the image that they they have about me? Why are they inviting all these questions disappeared in the pandemic in a way It's interesting that you're raising that because actually when I was asking the question I was not so much problematizing the global collaboration on the level of Ecological questions, but more we have here the sentence decolonize a spectacle and I felt sometimes that This international form of collaboration this festivals as you were saying why do they invite me? What is the gesture? What is in which way it is it to show something to excite something or is it? Just to to to have give a short visibility to something then to feel better in a bourgeois way and then to retrace from the from the question of solidarity and that's why I'm also problematizing how did we work and in which Forms of production did we perhaps participate with our artistic work? And that's perhaps leads also to you Mila. How do you look back to the time before the pandemic and the international collaboration? I Just to come back what I just heard from from from Leah and from Washington and also from happy And from you It's very interesting how focused you still are even being in a global system of exchange of art and everything That I think many people never heard the statement in Europe like the one from from here now I Didn't read it in any theater channel this program Programmatization of not flying anymore and not exchanging anymore and who pays the the price for it Because where is the center of this all this is what you call richness all this this money and also of the symbolic capital On the schools you can go and and so on and so on and it's everything in Europe And of course, it's simple to say in Europe. So now we stay in Europe As we did it for so long time while the global economy of course is continuing and the managers are flying and so on and so on So I think the first step for me is to and that's I think if I remember well Was also the reason why we started this school of resistance to really confront the very limited perspective we can have on global problems by By the life by the milieu by just the reality how we construct our knowledge and our practice To widen it to open it and to find them Solutions together on a on a on a on a global level So that's that's that's what is interesting for me. And of course I can now talk a lot about How I was starting to think about it But I think I'm in that way I'm a really a cliche European artist that decided immediately. We have to have less touring We have to have more sustainable forms of producing in my theater in Engend and I don't think that this is worthless still I think but it's only a part of the of the problem I think I think this will lead us To one of the the core questions of what we are trying to understand today or learning and unlearning What is our relation to a specific territory a social specific social context in which we are working and how do we make this visible or Mobile in a global context and I would in this case like to start with you Leah perhaps you can tell a bit about you mentioned the school already and How you work in a specific place a specific social territory, but at the same time you travel with your work Globally and how you see the relation between these two poles First of all, I have to say that I'm speaking from a very specific place Related to Brazil. I am a white woman. I am from middle class and this means a lot in my country so I had I had many privilege that a Lot of people they cannot have so I could be an artist first of all So I had all my my career as a dancer a choreographer, but I'm very committed Since ever with what's happening in my country is when I heard about Solidarity in times of of corona or even before I don't see a huge change And I think the the pandemic hit Differently in different countries as you can imagine the pandemic hit in Brazil in a very very very hard way Because you don't have only the pandemic are now the second country to have more people dying And we are in a cow completely chaos there. So this is a create a completely different Form of solidarity, of course we have you have a lot solidarity Brazil the place where I work The NGO with whom I work in the favela made a huge campaign to give just food To people that don't have nothing to eat 17 families But I you go to your specific your question. So I I work and and I Made my artistic and pedagogical work in this territory is a huge favela with 140,000 inhabitants this is bigger than 8% of the cities in Brazil and of course is completely doesn't have many How to say Infrastructure for their lives Is a very hard life specific more more and more now in the pandemic times, but still with violence with but in another hand, they have a very a Life life, let's say like this people are able to create to see to reinvent themselves because life for them say every day No, and they have to reinvent themselves and say every day. Yes to life So I learn a lot. So I arrived there without a project, but just together with this energy all that is Lead by people that born in the favela. This is a huge difference also so together we decided to create our center and we created this art center for In a huge space that was completely destroyed. We still The past ten years we tried to raise money to do to make some works there And then this dance school 2011 and have these 300 students for all eights But it's also the where I work where I made my creations where I'm always in the in this very specific Place that I have to ask questions myself every day every day what I'm doing there I have to have a radical listening to people that lives there and And to to speak about my relation with Europe as I said in the in the first question that I have the support of many institutions in Europe Luckily, otherwise, I would not able to follow my work. I don't know in which way I'll follow my work So I try to because when I am in Brazil I have to deal with this specific territory that asked me many questions But when I arrive in Europe with my work also, I'm seeing as a Latin American artist and it's very complicated and complex and very Interesting to be in these two places all the time traveling from one to the other Thank you. Perhaps also the same question to Vashti. How does the specific place we work in relate To the way we collaborate on an international level and also combining it perhaps with a question from the audience How can we deconstruct a European-centered solidarity and instead create a decolonial decolonial solidarity? global I Can of course only speak from the point of view that I am speaking from as opposed to lia I am in the entirely opposed situation Everything that I do as an artist For instance, if we speak about my artistic work Everything that I do everything that I've written everything Absolutely everything that I do I Always address the Lebanese I write plays starting from Lebanon. I begin with this exile All the Nonetheless all the plays that I have done that I've written I've written them with actors that are not Lebanese I have worked with Actors in Quebec for spectators in Quebec because theater is particular in that as opposed to cinema a theater play is for the spectators that are roughly Three miles around the theater 90% of the spectators live close to the theater not far away. So this is the people that you address All the while everything that I talk about talks about an injury That has occurred in a country that is Thousands of kilometers away. I myself therefore I'm always Decentred I never live in the place From where I write I don't live in my emotional territory. I live in other territories Everything I write I write it together with artists that do not know anything about the situation that I Describe I keep describing the war in Lebanon to actors in Quebec I have to transmit this to them so that they can carry the work and there's not only the actors But there's also the spectators So I am telling to spectators who are not concerned by this question This question that is far away from them Only once have I had the opportunity to go perform these plays in Lebanon This was the only time in my life where I had the impression that those that I write for Heard me the rest of the time. I'm and tell it entirely Decentralized so my relationship to territory is rather paradoxical Right now I am directing the theater theater de la coline that is situated in Paris in a very popular Down to earth area it used to be called the theater of the Parisian as east It's Still a working class area of Paris a little bit and Currently I am in the process of rehearsing a performance that takes its starting point with an explosion that has occurred in the In Beirut and I do this with French actors And I spend my day asking myself the question how I Can make sense of what I want to narrate here to a spectator whose story this isn't at all How can I when I write when I direct? Open up the theater for example at the moment the situation that we're in right now Which is that we're not performing. I've decided to open the rehearsals. They're open all the time Every day people that I don't know at all come. It's very limited. There's about 10 people They come they sit down and they watch us rehearse And that is the way that I have found To share to share this lucky situation that we are in that we can be rehearsing and can be working So I'm staging a story that doesn't regard the people that come and watch at all But as soon as somebody sits In the theater space I start looking at them. I start looking For what I see in their eyes and I start to shift a little bit what I'm doing I Have never asked myself the question why I was invited to the country is that I was invited to I'm so busy with How to create a relation between the spectators that lives right next to the theater With a story that happened so far away from him my problem for the past 30 years Has so often been that I am not really addressing the audience that I would like to address That when somebody says I want your show to come to our festival. I wanted to travel. I say sure fine. I'm very happy But it doesn't really console me because I find myself performing in Spain and Germany I'm happy because I know that it reaches people but the audience that I would want to address too I am never addressing it as if Leah was doing choreographies But was never presenting them in Marie where she lives As if she was presenting them everywhere in the world except for in this favela and this creates a relationship to the world That is rather strange When I hear words during the pandemic such as mutant the virus has muted or there's variation I always feel like I'm talking like one is talking about myself. I'm a mutant I'm a variant when I started leaving my country and I'm I keep being a variant and I can't return to the center Thank you very much for that For sharing that and I'm sure and curious that you have plenty to to react hearing all this Hey plenty, okay First of all like to come to this question how like to To deconstruct the European Center solidarity It's just like I'm wondering like it's first of all. How can I like as a Lebanese coming from Countries where like there are wars and catastrophes like region which is still in Conflicts, etc. How like I first of all how I can convince The Europeans if we are talking about the Europeans, but also the global the world Not to look at me as a victim Not to reproduce me again as a victim So if I want to come to a festival not because I'm a victim Because this is actually the the problem where whenever there's a catastrophe the world runs to and like open the microphones the cameras for those people to to bring them and Invite them and money goes there to produce for them and but what they want from them They want them as victims not as an active Agents agents yes, so whenever they become active agents, they are not welcome at all Do you have to fight for this you have to resist all the time for this and it's not it's not an easy thing for for those Countries that are coming from the margin from like from poor countries where there are like Conflicts and a lot a lot of artists if I want to say like the majority of the artists from these countries paid the price In in in the two senses either they are they paid the price that they are Excluded they are not invited at all or they actually they accept the game and they produced themselves as victims and they are like become like stars or like Invited everywhere, etc. Very very few people maybe they resisted this and they succeeded to find a place Don't know this and if I may ask is there something about the production structures and also the structures of the finance behind what kind of Of sharing what kind of our production is being financed do we have a very short-lived? Spectacle and we are not really interested in engaging in it There is there's agendas all the time and in the In people who are organizing who has the power to organizing people who have the money To organize things they have agendas all the time most of the time and they have to fill Fulfill this agenda. So they of course they have to look where they can find Things Works people that they can Fit their agendas and those who doesn't fit they are not there simply it's simply as this It's very violent really. It's very violent and it's the agenda is all the time changing There are some people very clever. They can like play with this. I mean like from outside Yeah, and also from the inside. It's like a double also. It's also from from the center also It's a problematic. It's not only for the margin because also this agenda is also is The the the issue also is that they don't create their agendas also it's also there are someone who is giving this agenda and giving the money according to this agenda and And it's all the time You have to this is why like I'm saying like I'm all the time skeptical doubtful I I am all the time afraid to participate in in in whatever festival I don't say that I succeed to to have like a good selection or like to know of course know because like it's it's a It's it's a big machine going on. It's it's really But I am always always skeptical always questionable about this I think this concept of agenda setting is very interesting also in the context of your work Milo and also in this context I wanted to Mention the book and also the the work you you've done around the concept of global realism And perhaps it has something to do also with setting agendas and creating work on context of your own Yeah, I Want perhaps to do come on something that he was saying because but for me is very interesting There's an economy of compassion I think in the art sector in the bourgeois art sector that you would be invited as you said because you are a Victim of a conflict or you lift the conflict you have a special special biography and And some years ago or five years ago six years ago. I made a plague compassion what was exactly about Why are you always exposed as a as a victim? And why is there this kind of struggle of being a victim even in places where are no victims, you know Somehow when you enter the art sector and why is there this place in society? And that's for me there as a Marxist the most scaring part Where being a victim is good? While in all the other places, it's a huge problem, right and you can't capitalize it you can only capitalize it in these festivals and Why did we create this? Economy of compassion and of being a victim and you go around in the world and why does it exist? Why did we create this counter world which is somehow where we give agency to people that when they step One step aside don't have anymore You know and we have never-ending discussions about what is the percentage of agency in that room And I think that room in general is wrong the way how we represent It becomes now a bit Let's say general I know but how we represent the world in art perhaps is wrong Perhaps we have to find other ways of Representation as as Vashti described as Leah described it like on really landing somewhere or really accepting the exile or Really trying to do activism and not art or really just working on your stuff And I'm not interested in including however, you know kind of rejecting all this neoliberal like tolerance inclusion agency and Question the things and what would it mean because they are all beautiful concepts But what would it mean basically and then we come to the global realism? How can you change actually a system where you have a parallelity of global exploitation and global compassion? How can you kind of reflect on what you would like to do as an artist and then is intellectual into real? Let's say for example the distribution of a work the kind of how you produce a work how the institutions are done Where you work to do it? And I think the only thing we can do at the very moment is Criticizing it is perhaps somehow escaping it But for me personally is really too and that's why I think what what what Leah does and what what Vashti does is for me Beautiful to say okay We land on that place on our theory and There we try to do a work that is really senseful and has a time and has its own complexity Which is incredible, you know, and you try to decolonize I mean your neighborhood some somehow and I think that's what what I'm also interested in the very moment to say Okay, what is this approach? What is this? actually, but I'm Less exposed to it than you Robbie because I I'm I As Vashti I became the director of a huge institution or not so huge but still a city theater So I have some chances to to reconstruct it limited But still they are there and I have a neighborhood, you know, even if I'm not from Belgium and etc I want to add one thought about because we are always talking about Europe And I think Europe is colonized too. I mean you have to go to South Italy to South Spain To Eastern Europe to wherever and you will find it totally other Europe than in these Festivals or in Berlin or in Paris, of course So there is no Europe that is kind of colonizing the world. We are all the time colonizing ourselves. Yeah, yeah, which is exactly also I would refer also to the same point or For also Vashti that was saying like about the audience and Lebanon What's the is that also? This is something because I live there Most my entire life there, but also I didn't feel that I'm reaching the Real audience in Lebanon. I was like it was a very very limited audience and the rest are like You cannot reach them and they are like we are in in In a valley as we say and they are in another valley. This is a Lebanese I don't know what so just like to say like yes really when you go from one part to another part in the same country If you can you can find that there are like also the power game is there and it's violent How like they exclude each other or how they do like this Violence relation and repressing each other. So I mean there's definitely a construction of of of centrality and periphery and Gravity and margins going on all the time and perhaps this leads me back to the one of the questions we had at the very beginning Leah when you somehow showed how important it is to hack the system To mobilize resources for other communities, but also perhaps for for other forms of art Perhaps you can go a bit into this question of how we should be Hacking this the system in order to to really mobilize resources and solidarity I Don't know what I have some things that I want to say About the victim for example, I don't I don't see as Brazilians as every Victims also. I don't see myself Miss eyes. I don't know how to say I think we have a huge knowledge in Brazil Especially, you know indigenous people like people people from the periphery. They don't feel themselves victims Of course living in a country as we leave that each 23 minutes a black a young black boys killed Make the whole difference from everything that you do art or not art So this is one thing then I would like to speak about audience I present my works always in Maré since the beginning and I stayed there for one month Playing five days a week and this is very important for me And there is no difference from the audience in Europe and the audience there in Maré So with I tried to to really stay in this place showing my work as an artist and be Social make social projects and art projects, but then to to come to I and also to to say that I I know very well that the Europe that I I'm referring is not this the Europe that is the poor Europe is of course where the money is Concentrated and I know that Europe is not only one But but can you repeat your question, please because I lost myself in my own No at the beginning you were referring to how important it was that International travels were possible because then bringing and coming to Europe hacking the system earning the money and then enabled again Work back in Brazil that this this procedure was also something to to mobilize resources And you said how important it was and how difficult that it stopped so in which way and can we transform or hack the the system in place in order to really and Enable a different form of global collaboration. I Think we have first First of all, we have to have a radical listening for different voices We have to step out of our center. I is my work. I can do it. I I want to If I can do my work, I read I have the right to do my work in the way I believe I think we have to stop to step out and leaves other voices there There's no place for the these voices Nowadays and since long time is I think this is a radical listening open The place you you you have if you have a lot of power in your in your career You can step out a little bit and give place to others is is what I try to do very little but I think everybody can invent different forms to Wreck the system. I don't know if I'm wrecking the system I just do what I need to do what I see in front of my eyes what I Is is a necessity? I cannot do differently Sometimes I struggle With my career as an artist If I am an artist or or I'm doing social projects But I let these questions float a little bit in order to go on I'm very practical person. I have to build something concrete So I try to to deal with all my questioning about all these things but to follow Building concrete So a space this cool my work and go there Follow to raise money. I'm raising money For to to the roof that is falling down nowadays So I'm trying to I'm very concrete because I think this is what my country asks me So I'm trying to answer with my my work as an artist, but also with very concrete actions Vashti probably being like in a in a the place of centrality like Paris and The the the way we have to operate is a bit different So I would be curious about what you say what we have to unlearn and For instance directing and a European arts institution This is a very good question For me at least the conclusion that I have reached with regards to this pandemic That what I have to learn right now And What I will say is not just an idea it will have very concrete consequences What I need to learn is to create outside of institutions I have to get out of the institutions entirely I don't only need to stop directing those institutions, but I need to create outside of the institutions and Independently of them and since I don't know yet what that means and how to do this You know, it's not very complicated Political power definitely needs to know two things once what are doing as scientists and what are It's artists doing because those are the two areas of research As long as through a system of financial support Demands from artists to Explain and present its project as long as you need to say I will do this and that I will do this for the use Etc. Etc. The politician looks at this and says, ah, this is a nice kid. This is a good kid. He's interesting He's not dangerous This is all right. The same is done to academics and scientists in the domain of research This means that the political World even if they're not aware of it, they absolutely need to know what artists and scientists are doing And for me This is also a kind of a framework that you have to fit in You go to school art school then you found a company and you continue to enter in this machinery That is institutionalized at a certain point you start directing Institutions and you don't always ask yourself the right questions those questions that Rabia has mentioned Why am I invited? You are maybe honored or flattered. You want to go And it's also marvelous to hear that you are loved An important director tells you as an artist, I love you and you think thank you so much Of course, I'm going everything that I'm saying now. I'm talking only about me, of course But I've realized that which Made me start writing that when I was a young man and I was Unknown I wasn't part of any institution. I was just at home dreaming having ideas And this thing is very important to me The pandemic has Led me to ask myself what would happen if you started creating outside of institutions And I didn't get an answer. I don't know exactly how to do it Structurally economically, I don't know how to I Don't know how to organize that kind of work So I wonder if not, maybe this might be the most interesting approach Maybe to be very concrete Maybe I don't need to prolong My contract as a director of the Tia de la Colline Maybe if I'm offered the direction of another institution, even if it's flamboyant Maybe I have to say no, I'm not taking it. Maybe I have to Get out of the institutions And to answer the question of Decolonization and of a new interrogation. I think that it is impossible To answer to that from a situation such as the one that I am in I cannot answer this question if I don't Make my body the answer to this question. I can't respond to this question and continue working for space that Gives me a salary that gives me a space and means to work. This would be hypocritical I have to get out of the institution first To really begin a renaissance of my relationship With this thing that I love most in the world, which is creating You mentioned and explained both what it means to To be in an institution and the hypocrisy the difficulties of transforming and what it means to be outside of an institution Mila that I would like to bring that to you because You said you are just the director of anti-gantt and you start with a very specific Manifesto the gantt manifest the beginning. So this is a way to from the start from scratch transform the institution But you also operate a lot outside institutions on purpose probably so perhaps What is the difference in operating in these two systems? What what what is the hypocrisy and where are the opportunities? I When I became artistic director of of and again two years ago or two and a half years ago It was my first fixed contract ever and my my mother was very happy that I finally had with more than 40 years a contract and It's true that I it's just true that especially now in the in the times of corona Gives you safety You know that you will not be kind of lost if you can't produce you can even afford you to not produce You can even say let's Produce and not sell you can you can do a lot of things if you are in an institution on the other side I would I would like to question a bit what what was he is saying That you can't be Kind of Let's say that it is impossible to decolonize institutions from the inside So that's I mean perhaps I short it too much But I don't I don't think it hundred percent and don't even think it in your case was she Because what you are doing in the delta de la colina is somehow decolonizing the Institution how you work how you invite the public what public you invite what work you do how you tour it and so on So you can use I'm not anti institutional So how you use institutions is is really and sometimes it means like an again manifesto really Exploded so we don't have the white classicals anymore We don't have these these ensemble that can only play Shakespeare because it's made of Old white men and old white women and they can only play Shakespeare because that's the it's the it's the and and and Chechoff so we have to have Kind of a decolonized Ensemble and so on and that you of course by purpose invite other people or we try for example when we go to muscle It's not too to know more about Mosul like journalists would do but it's and we will talk about this this evening. It's to invest at least 20 percent of our budget in creating a film Institute there together with the Academy of Dance of Mosul so it's it's what we have in the point eight of the manifesto saying you have to land every year somewhere With your big European institutions outside is in soon not invite people, but just bring cultural infrastructure somewhere Else and then leave it there as we did it with the to Congo travel I think privileges and being an institution is also Something that for me it would be hypocritical to not work with it and to not use it in In the in the way we do and as we have access And perhaps we are the only the second generations of leftists that have access to to this kind of institutions It's not so it's not so common to that from the from the off-scene you can enter these these institutions We should use it and we should we should transform them sometimes they are stronger than we are and then we have to be strategic and at the moment when I understand that I am Let's say I Arrived on a on a on a on a position where what I say and what I do is completely disconnected and not only a bit could Disconnected as it might be in in every life Then I would also stop it and I have to say to now I met the Vashti again That of course all one two months. I am thinking tomorrow. I stop it. I'm not I'm somehow not strong enough You know, I'm not bureaucratic enough to do this struggle But still I'm going on and we will see how it how it ends. I would turn around the day You notice you wouldn't be Prepared to stop You should stop Because then even like the if the attractiveness of being part of of the institutions in the system so big No, I mean it's it's the economy of love actually when you are on the head of an institution when you are in an institution It's like when you are all the time in a festival and you are surrounded by by a kind of a microcosmos Where you are somehow loved and you are somehow needed and I think that's for many people The reason why you would work in a group. It's also the description of solidarity. It's also beautiful We don't have only to to criticize it, but of course in the moment when you understand To be loved is more important than To do your job perhaps it's it's it's dangerous. I don't know there is I can end with a quote of of Bertolt Brecht That I like a lot He said when there is CTA where there is a necessity and the people needs me and there is a city B Where people loves me I would prefer to live in CTA and I think that's perhaps the answer on your on your question To add a footnote since we mentioned again to manifest which is of which of the ten commandments is your favorite. I Hope you ever read this, but it might be completely mysterious what you are talking about now I I have actually the the And I have found it again with with washti and also with with lia. I think it's the second one Theater is not a product. It is a production process research castings rehearsals and related debates must be Publicity accessible so that you don't work for premieres and then you open up and you show the premiere But the premier is just one day in in in your life of of of having an exchange And that's why we have a yeah all rehearsals are open and that's my I think it's my favorite I'm here and probably the different things That have been mentioned you want to react to but I add one more question and then you can Pick your path Because I wanted to ask you that the title we gave to this conversation Can there be global art is of course We use it in a way to to make it like to problematize it this concept of The globe sphere in the global art. Do you think that this is a misleading concept a problematic concept a wrong conception of exchange I Don't know why I I just find it problematic to to be honest. It's like To think in global or Even to think local I don't know like Like you are like in a way creating like kind of a binaries, which is like I think like I'm interested in Actually in the process as you said with this statement and your manifesto is like the process the research the The way of of thinking and reflecting upon things And I'm I'm a person who actually insist like if you want to do a work about About the topic that you don't go for generalization just to to go for the global, huh? So it's like for me is is like as much as you are precise as much as you go into the details of the details like as Which the only all the time they are Insisting that when we talk we're talking about our self or our our conditions. It's not about like representing Brazil or Sao Paulo or like whatever artists. No, I'm talking about myself But like when I talk about the wars Or the war There are like If the war with a big capital, it's problematic. So which war we are talking about It's about this word that happened in that day at this moment in that place Not any war and then you can find all the the the political background the social background Everything around it dig inside it around it in order to talk about it And I don't mind if the audience Could grasp the details the nuances or not, it's fine I think this is also something some artists and I don't want to generalize but also there are some also Producers they are always afraid that but the audience will not understand we have to make like food notes or like Glossary or a glossary or introductions. This is I think this is they It's in a way. They aren't underestimate the audience They think that they are clever than the audience or they or the artist is a clever than the audience Or like I know and they don't know and I'm here to teach them or like to give them knowledge about My country or this event or whatever This is I think this is a problematic issue I think like when I do a work I do it and I presented it In Beirut as I presented it in Berlin as it is in Japan Tokyo or whatever the same without any changes And I always have the same feeling that people can understand and even if in In Tokyo they will miss a lot of the nuances because they don't have they don't know the history of my country If I'm talking about my country, which is fine But they know the history of their country very well, which I don't know And they can make associations with what I'm talking about with their histories with their own experience and then Exactly, it's the representation or the presentation and the performance itself the opening itself Is not that important as much as the encounter after when we start to Discuss and to to to give a dialogue to make a dialogue and then do this exchange So the performance that you present is is a kind of sharing With the audience something and then they share with you with other things and this is how how I see it So it's global local The show is also one step in this process you all of you are of course pressing this of course it's it's it's for me it's the For me I I do like three phases This is how I I see the the process of like creating or like doing work Better than using the word creating. I don't like it Doing a work an artwork. It's in three phases the the first phase when you work alone or with a group With this process with the research Etc, which you don't think about your audience. You don't know to whom you are addressing It's actually you are addressing it to yourself to the people you are working. We are Thinking you are provoking yourself. You are questioning yourself. You are pleasing yourself. It's your pleasure. It's your torturing It's all of this, huh? Then the second phase is when you when you share this When you see like okay this moment. I want to stop it because it's endless research It's go on go on so let's stop it here and share with the audience what I have now So this is the performance and the third phase is the very important one when you start to meet with the audience as individuals when each one of them has a voice has has a political presence and everyone has the ability to to articulate her own Ideas and questions and thoughts and the debate that comes out of it. So it's when you come back to this Equality with with with the audience for instance in in München a kamerspieler with your work kill the audience There was always an after talk to every performance and they're like the after talk was really sometimes an hour It was almost as long as the performance itself because everyone was so engaged in discussing right and we talked a lot about Processes you you mentioned how important is for you. Vashti also explained that he's now inviting audience to the rehearsals Lee as I would like to ask two questions to you one is how Is the artistic process when you work in the in the studio in the dancing school And also how is the process with the specific people you're working with and the rest of the people around And the second question because all of you mentioned audiences and I'm quite glad that that we're talking about this And I would also be interested because you said something about the audience there, but how do you feel? The interaction with audiences when you travel to festivals is there and for any form of engagement as Rabia was asking for So I was thinking about when Habi was speaking about this meeting with the audience Since the artist amare where I I work there is no doors is that the door open because very hot Cannot close the only place that can little bit to the fresh air can enter so a Lot of people enter during the rehearse a lot of young the students that passed by and they wanted to drink water we have drinking water inside or sometimes this People crack people that lives in the streets. Sometimes they enter them and they they are inside my rehearsal I have to stop many many times during my When I'm doing I like this doing a piece because many things happens at the same time So I think this is the first meeting with a kind of audience because they are very curious always as we have two spaces and Many activities are in the other space. There is also no door so a lot of students from the dance school or other things that we do they visit us during the rehearsal etc, so there is a real interaction and With the audience as we play Sometimes we play we have a lot of conversations after and sometimes before the piece Sometimes when you have for example naked bodies in the pieces can be problematic Inside of the favela, but not always, but we have to a little bit talk about it before and After also because people come to you to see and and before as there is no this Relation as in the theater that is separated. They are there with we drink or eat together is always this thing that eats together before The the performance and after the performance so before I have to come on We are going to begin our performance. We use the same to a let To change our clothes and for the audience so we have a really interaction like this and When I go to theaters in Europe, which of course is completely different First to set up a piece that was created in this space in a black box or in another space for me Sometimes I struggle because I miss the Ripping I miss the noises. I miss the life that is interacting all the time with me but then I learned I learned With years to accept the silence accept the condition that I have that also add to my peace The transformer my piece of course and I have pleasure to be also in this space And I love to talk with the audience after all my my performance because I think this is part of my performance also because To to make a point with the beginning of our conversation when I mention ecology Because the colonizing is not far from ecology is completely linked These two these two concepts is very important for me at least to think the world from this perspective and so I Bring as a fly from very far. I have to meet these people I have to try to to listen them and to give information to this other part of the world like a letter I feel myself as a letter to address and to bring To bring all these voices that cannot Travel they cannot sometimes express themselves because I speak not very old English, but I speak very well French So I can address people in another way So this for me is the beautiful part of my life as an artist is to be Completely different people and talking and listening. I love this There's a question I would like to raise to Vashti and because now we talked at the very beginning And I don't think that we have to go too much into detail in which way Global collaborations have come to an halt in this pandemic time But perhaps to talk briefly about the function our arts could have right now because we are very restricted in our ways of work but still precisely now to understand the situation we're living in or to deal with the vulnerability and and also the healing that it's needed perhaps With all the suffering that the pandemic also inflicts What could be the the role function this the art space in this pandemic times I Believe that the role is to resist to the social attraction I believe that we have to become a social agent We have all different tendencies Some artists are metaphysical pure artists they have to stay that way they have To be trustful to themselves and they can't have the feeling that if they don't they stop being artists There's other artists for whom the presence of the social is very important and this is very good, too What I rather think is dangerous at the moment is this injunction one has To be social one has to help people Yes, that's true, but it's maybe not everybody's function not everybody has this affinity You know, maybe in 10 years there will be a different pandemic virus and When this virus hits One will realize that the only possible way of healing it Is it's a performance it's like Tarkov ski soka and this is The vaccination against this virus There's no other type of vaccine all scientists say there's no vaccine and suddenly some guy Some guy suddenly realizes I Realized that somebody who was really ill with his new virus went to a show He saw the performance and then suddenly he was healed and then suddenly everybody realizes that Metaphysical on social artists are the vaccine for this virus. What will we do then? We will not be able to be Tarkov ski all of us. We will not be able to improvise Helder lean each and every one of us But what we can do is to not Be wrong about yourself to not lie to yourself about who you are and not to start telling each other's stories Saying artists to do this or should do that. I have absolutely no idea I just know that I have to ask myself What is my language and I can't betray my language? How do I write from where do I write? There is this Citation from her day lean says what use our poets in times of need. This is a phenomenal question today Especially since in France everything is closed Malls are open museums are closed. It's absurd Because you could walk around in a museum like you walk around in a mall, but museums are closed churches are open But theaters are closed There's no logic to that So the logic is that The government has decided that since it can't open everything it has chosen and it has chosen To close down culture and art in order to be able to open churches and malls So what use our artists in times of need if I asked the government who is taking the decisions It's taking right now. They would answer They aren't really Very useful. So starting from there The temptation that I feel is to think I have to help I have to do this and that and that We artists all start doing kind of the same things By contrast I Say this all the more since I feel a dichotomy between myself and what is happening my own language is a dichotomy I'm not a social Artist socially engaged artist. I keep telling stories. I'm a narrator I do very classical theater with replicas with Stage directions with set design and decor changes. I'm a really classical guy So I will not start changing now and stop being myself Because suddenly I have to do something else. I think It is very important to not betray oneself and to not go wrong on oneself to not change Your own language but to make it even more precise Instead of starting speaking a language that is not at all your own For sure that the whole question of how Art institutions are allowed to operate or not at this time would be a whole new debate and I mean we can Could share very similar stories from Germany But since we are now talking about the pandemic situation You know and and you as we heard at the beginning when the pandemic started you were in Brazil you were working with your Antigone in the Amazonas And and probably this was a since then one year past and many reflections Have been hunting all of us. What do you think? Did you learn or unlearn in the face of the pandemic regarding your practices? I Think one thing that the Vashti is very right is that it's all a question of Talent and of character. I mean you are a good social worker And you are perhaps a bad artist or you're a good artist in the very bad social worker And sometimes it comes together and somebody needs silence to work for example Maritio Ross She needed complete silence and if there was one sound she couldn't concentrate anymore and others need a lot of people present For example myself if I enter space where is nobody waiting for something at least five people For me, it's difficult to have one thought. I can't think alone. You know, I can't sit at home I always need a Collaboration a public somebody who who who would who would think together with me who would be in dialogue so I Learned a lot about my dependence from it And I think and perhaps I generalized too much the dependency from theater from it or from art from it that you would have somebody who is in in front of you and And then I started thinking because of course the the government says you can't go back to your theaters But why don't we play outside? You can't play in artificial light inside So let's play in in real light outside Let's have this kind of discussions if this is the only possibility that they can meet with all of you in one room for example, I I started in the last year to Talk to much more people and much more different people than before Even the idea of this of this school of resistance was born because it was impossible to to invite our Antigone Kaisara To to the to the Vino Festwoch and the Vienna festival. So we said, okay, let's do it online and I think you've searched other ways of Communication and I hope that these channels these solidarities Stay alive when we don't need it anymore or that we still make this kind of of meetings Even if we could have 10,000 meetings here in Berlin, you know For me the beginning of this discussion was the most interesting moment Because it was really like everybody in this round was saying the complete opposite What I think you were expecting that would be said. I don't know Yeah, but that everybody would say yes, stop flying stuff because if you would have five people from Europe here It would have been a discussion and then let's count the co2 and etc. etc So nobody would reflect on the kind of the inequality that it is in this kind of Let's say upper class ecological view on the international distribution of art but in a way you could also argue that it's precisely the experts of change and those that can Land at a rear in a specific Social terrain and that those should be the ones traveling So that's what I would completely agree with what Leah said that if someone is flying and if someone is creating as a Footprint ecological footprint and it should be These kind of people that have this this talent or this expertise. Yeah by the way the flights are full with managers I mean you said the churches are open, but also the airports are open. So it's it's it's completely absurd I mean what we are what we are What we are talking here that we want to cut down culture while Everybody is continuing to distribute inequality all the time and we are we can be distributors of equality Somehow of solidarity. I mean that's a bit naive, but that's I think Our role and I think what what was he said to be precise in what we know to do And if you are I was I was healed so many times by Pasolini by the way, I was healed many times by Hilderlin I'm a bit afraid that nobody would expect this that I say that but Because I I'm I'm but I'm not the guy who would write the big energy And I'm not the guy who would do a play with many stage directions So it's not my talent, but I love it, you know and everybody has to be precise in his In his field and that's what has to be distributed and we should cut the Preciseness of Vashti and of Leah and of of up here and we say just okay We can't fly anymore Then what will be distributed then I Think this this also brings me already to to a final round of questions to all of you Bit in the direction you were also mentioning the question of solidarity. So in regards with to solidarity in regards to corporations exchange also on a global scale What are you your fears and your wishes for the future after pandemic if on the ones that if we could imagine The world as we would like to have it but also the fears we have because my from I myself and I think at the moment because people say now is the time to find answers I'm more afraid of not of not finding a question than of Not finding an answer at the moment. So perhaps What what is a world we we would like to imagine for the time after pandemic up? Yeah Regarding our our practices is is artists that the travel seriously I have no answer about this I for me like it's Like it's a crisis that and it's a period that it's of course important to to to reflect upon it and to to To to see what comes out of it what what we can learn out of it. Yeah Because like there there's a lot of things happening in terms like if we are talking about life Performances And this is specifically what what is important now We if we are all like doing dance theater performances like this is an issue that now We we are losing like if you do films or videos, of course you miss To show it in Cinema, but you can still do films in the same way as as before or videos or like an artwork painting or But like theater where like there is a space a venue where people are gathering This is what we lost, but also what we gain. Huh? I think we gain we lost there is something not Not only negative there is some positive things to think about about that with the relation with the audience and the performer I I personally experienced this because I performed online Before the pandemic You're an exception No, it's maybe I'm exception, but like really I I I did the performances were like I was talking to a camera and Like hidden in a theater, but hidden and I have to speak to the audience and the audience Didn't know that I am I'm doing this live They thought that it is a video recorded, but then they discovered that it's live, but I also At the beginning it was like really suffering like how to perform to a lens So there's no audience you have to perform to a lens Huh? It's exactly what's happening now with Wajdi and the lia now. We are Lucky we are not in the safe situation. You're looking to this lens And and you have to and we have to imagine also the audience Hopefully there are audience, but maybe not We wouldn't notice, but this is actually this is this is what I'm this is what is important. There is something like There is a freedom for the audience more freedom for the audience than before Which I I really think about it a lot like this freedom that this situation when you perform online Of course, you lose this the chalur the the warmness the The bodies together, but also you gain something like now people can watch a performance in their beds They can watch it while they are eating and drinking they can even go to the toilet Like it's crazy thing. It's really great for the audience. It's really great for us. I Don't know. Maybe it's bad Because also I have to say like I had a dream Long time. It's like a nightmare. Actually. I always had it and then suddenly it happened to me now in the pandemic like I always think because I always Want to to perform And put the light off for the audience actually if someone wants to sleep Don't feel embarrassed. So I don't see him I will not be bothered and he will not or she will not be bothered But always I have this fear that maybe when the light on I will see no audience at all everybody left and this happened to me on Online actually when when I was performing one day and I was like doing very well my role Really, I was so happy and when I'm done. I Then I switched the because I was sharing my my screen So I switched on and I discovered that it was the connection was cut I was performing for nobody at all and The funny thing that as usually happens all the time when there is technical thing people think that this is part of the performance So they thought that it's part of the performance and they continued without me Discussing between themselves. What does it mean that he disappeared now? But it's crazy. I'm just telling any thoughts I have nothing to add Preston and then to you Leah. What what do you what are your expectations and also your fears? I'm regarding Global exchange in regards to our practices And and how we can share our work different places of the world and also and also regarding the the the attempts of solidarity That we talked so much about Because in one hand, I am very much I have many fears the real fears I feel in my body because I have to go back home next week To a country that is Very high contamination. So I have concrete fears. I'm part of the population that is in the list And because of my age No hospitals So I have fears about my my children if they are grow up I have fears about how to To make I don't know to make creations I never try to make in a different way the work of dance for me is to gather a Very close with a lot of people. I work. I love to work with a lot of people together So I I really don't know how to solve any of the these problems. So I When you ask my This question to me now I can be very nervous because I am in this moment of going back and Not knowing how to begin my work. I have to think For what I have to say maybe it's I hope we are more aware About the complexity of our life our humanity our Responsibility to To the planet or the other to the difference And we have to learn to live with the trouble because things are not going to be Good I don't have this dream I know that's going to be very bad But not for me maybe in the first time of course the first time who you the first person who you'll suffer is the poor indigenous people for example, so How can we leave with the trouble as Donna Haroi? Ask this questions in her beautiful book is the question that I ask myself every day How make this present moment more possible? And I am someone that work in a very small world because I don't have time to think Too much bigger. Otherwise, I'm not able to do my work there in this specific place Specific people around me. So I think I try to not think about your questions in my daily life Not think at all. Otherwise, I cannot move and I need to move. I need to move survive and People survive. I feel this responsibility. I cannot avoid this part of myself Then perhaps Milo, you want to continue What is your perspective or your hopes and your fears for the time with and after the pandemic? Regarding your artistic work and the conditions under which we will operate I I was working quite I have to say quite quite fast before the pandemic and this was somehow stopped and I Start to develop I Don't know another rhythm. I think during this this time and and that's for me I mean, I can't expand too much about it. It's quite logic. So I For example, I I felt again like a student In the in this time and I was doing projects and not knowing if they will happen and I found out that that's why I made out not to have a premiere and to always land but to be in this state of of Developing of sharing of of trying out you called it this kind of research phase when you are torturing yourself Because I I describe it if it only would be fun, but it's it's also quite Quite strong because it's also a relief to finally bring it out and But to be confronted more to this and to give and we come now to the institutions again to perhaps more built Places where you could do so Myself others and so on and that that this is what it is about and I very I hope and I I do what I can as with the little influence we have To make that possible that not this kind of produce to produce the next tour tour parallelly that this this craziness Chains and yeah, that's my that's what I learned out of it personally Finally dear was the words what is your outlook regarding our practices our forms of engagement with others with other artists at other places After the pandemic and perhaps also what are your fears? Regarding this I don't have so many fears outside of the concrete fears that I have for people that surround me that are dear to me During this pandemic I have had people close to me that died and others That were born Very close to me that Exited the uterus of their mother and others who died Oddly, however, I have a kind of conviction a confidence in the power of life When I say power of life, I mean that life Continues in the way that weeds grow in between in between That Persist I see of course that what is very complex is the uncertain uncertainty with regards to time And Habia and I have experienced this when we were kids We were always told that the war would end in three months and then Three months and the next three months added up to nine years So this relationship to time where you think this will end in six months twelve months You stop believing these kinds of sentences So you gain a rather detached relationship to time You only know for a fact that things will evolve and that the essential things persist Theater will persist. I don't know in what shape. I don't know how I will be doing it in three years But I know that this power of life is there and that it's powerful and this awareness of people close to me that are Dead and those that are born is a Powerful metaphor for the things that will happen to me some things will die in me And are the things that I don't know of yet will be born in my relationship to myself and in my relationship to others and To conclude I don't have a blind optimism But it's an optimism that I have been given I am pervaded by a feeling That something will not stop I'm incapable to say what it is but something will continue And we participate in this the fact that we are having this exchange right now means that we're participating in the energy of this thing that will not cease To conclude maybe with a word on solidarity that touches me a lot And it has led me to think of a text that has been very important to me from Czech philosopher Jan Patochka who was asking himself at some point How can two people who are separated by everything be brought close to each other people who hate each other who shoot at each other and Patochka was asking this question. What kind of solidarity could bring them together. He's He said solidarity of artists. No, they're not artists that of intellectuals neither And there he develops a concept that I think is very beautiful and truthful It's the solidarity of the shaken those who have been shook in their everyday lives through the fear that they have of the day and the night and Jan Patochka says we are all people that have been shaken we all form the solidarity of the shaken and we need to invest our lives entirely in that In that fear in order to not betray the solidarity of the shaken because if we are looking for comfort If we are retreating if we don't participate We suddenly become people who are cornered who hide in the back why others are dying So the question that we can ask ourselves Is how can I Serve with this thing that has shaken me. How can I serve others by opening the rehearsals? By continuing to create in this place where we are By assuming our responsibilities and I'm coming back to this by not betraying the language That is ours by not changing our language and by rendering it even more very powerful even more impactful To have the solidarity of those that have been shaken and we have all been shaken at the moment I'm grateful that you are pointing this out and I'm sure tomorrow There will be a debate at 5 p.m. On the revolt of dignity with Luca Cazzarini Lorenzo Marcilli and Ivan Sanje and this will be one of the topics We will try to pick up tomorrow at the talk now at 7 We will see the movie the making off of Milo's production or estes in Mosul for all those that are watching on Facebook you have to switch to the web page of our academy de quince de berlín which is Www.adk.de because otherwise You know Facebook questions of distribution. We had it on the first night is a complex issue and there will be an after-talk to this Screening of the movie and there will be Daniel de mustier the director of this making off documentation of your work There will be three people who participate in the project Susanna Abdul-Majid Khalid Ravi and Sardar Abdullah and cultural theorist Klaus Tevilite is joining and Conversation will be hosted by my two colleagues Elin Banken and Kasia Wojcik who are also curators of the school of resistance and As you know this the school of resistance is somehow quite classical. It's like television The program is running. You have to see it while while it's announced And I think it's also quite nice that we come back in this times of pandemic to such a classical form Don't do the on-demand thing. It's days. It is a set time When you're invited to join and then we are gathered as a decentralized audience For me the last thing to say now is to thank all of you Rabia Milo lia Vashti Merci. Obrigado and thank you Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much Thank you. Goodbye. See you soon. Goodbye