 Hello everybody, if it's Wednesday, it's Warhammer and that must mean it's time for another episode of Warhammer weekly joining me as always my co-host Tom. What's up, brother? How you doing? Hello, friends. Also joining us this week. He's back. He's back again. Our title holder probably maybe still for longest show. I don't know. I think it's like it doesn't really matter. This LaNesh show is the longest, but at any rate, Tyler, how you doing, buddy? Good. Good to be with you fellas once again. I think Paul Conti still has me beat to the score. He's got your beat on appearances, yes. That is true. Yes, I'm going to have to work on that. But that's all right. That's all right. We'll see what we can do. We're going to be bringing in some new folks here too. There's a lot of people out there that don't want to get on, so we're going to expand our world. Not that I mind. Tyler, I'd have you on all the time. Definitely got to diversify that portfolio. Some people who actually are collecting armies right now, apart from your current guest. My current guest has probably played more Warhammer than my co-host. Come on now. I have games scheduled this weekend. Good for you. I'm just saying, Tyler's out there getting it done on TTS. We'll be talking about TTS in a few weeks. That's not real Warhammer. It's Warhammer. I heard that a lot over the last year. We can save that. We can save that. All right. At any rate, this week we're going to be talking about Daughters of Cain and what that army looks like after its changes from Broken Realms Marathi. Now, we were hoping to have the FAQ. By the time we came to have this discussion, when we scheduled it out, I was like, well, there's no way we won't have the FAQ by this point in time. Of course we'll have it. That would be ridiculous. We'll easily have it. Haha. Well, life's funny sometimes. Spoiler of a little news item as we get into the news here. Obviously, they did at least confirm the FAQ is coming when they put up the 40k item. They said, age of Sigmar people, don't worry, your FAQ is coming in a few weeks by the end of the month. The general impression is sometime in January. Yeah. I mean, it's been this late before because it was almost LVO timeframe that we got at one year. And that's where we're at. We're swiftly approaching that. So in another week and a half or so it would have been when LVO was. So that's not too surprising. But we do have an exciting rumor engine. It's a lizard. It's a little skink. It's a skink in the term of like, not the way we use skink in the game, but skink in like the term that skink is really applied in the real world. For everyone else in the world. So what is this? I have no idea. This is, this is that frustrating type of rumor engine that I despise that is like, you know exactly what it is, right? This is the kind I love. Like you know what it is, but you have no idea what it is. See, these are the ones that drive me crazy. Cause I'm like, yep, that's a tiny lizard on something. Okay. Yeah. Any, any Tom, you want to go ahead and take a while swing at this one? I think it's a terrain piece. Okay. Okay. I think in fact that it is our much desired realm of life bundle. Okay. It's like, so there's a terrain box coming. That's realm of life. That's what I'm going to hypothesize. Okay. I won't counter that at all. Seems just as likely as anything else. Like seriously, this is, who knows. It's a thing with a lizard crawling on it. Okay. Yeah. Speaking of lizards, let's talk about the real news from this week that had to do with lizards, which is boom. That's right. This is the real lizard news. The seraphon warband for underworlds. That's the lizards we want to be talking about. I mean, whatever. It's fine. So the question that every guest, I'm sure is asking you Vince on every show. Is there no way that the guests can see what you're talking about? No. It's like 30 seconds behind. So if you're watching live there, it just caught. Oh, well, yeah. Yeah. You have to just open a window. Hey, I have to to every week. Okay. I watched our show live hoping that I'll actually get to see the images that Vince shows everyone else. This is the way it works, folks. I don't know what to tell you. Welcome to the world of streaming. Okay. This is what everybody does. I'm good now. All right. Excellent. So yes, this, we finally saw this seraphon warband for underworlds. That's why I'll vamp for a few seconds, by the way, whenever I change images to give it time to hopefully catch up so that you guys can react. See, there's a method here. I am aware of the delay behind this. We're not amateurs. I promise. Yeah. These guys look fantastic. I think these dudes are sweet. The only the only one I really don't like honestly is the source. Really? I love that dude. I love that. I saw him. I was like, I like him. Yeah. I don't like the pose. He feels very like legitimate. I don't. He feels like he's squatting. Maybe is. I don't like this. The chameleon skink. Really? What? That's insane. It's insanity. It's like, he's just so like static. And so he's supposed to be, they're very, they're very static things. They just like move one arm. Haven't you seen him out in the wild? They just like, he looks like he's taken a hit of something. Chameleon skinks. I don't know. Like, that's the one that I don't like. I like the source. He's like, I got you for five minutes. Like that dude is ready. Either that or he's constipated, but sure. One of these two days is happening. Yeah. My dog is usually in a similar pose after it gets into the trash. Yeah. I mean, skinks are categorical abominations. So I can't say too much about this. I mean, the, I can, I can appreciate the dude hold up the, whatever that is he's holding up there. Yeah. I can, I can appreciate what he's doing, but no, we need to get this off the screen as quickly as possible. I look, I appreciate that we got every loadout, right? That we've got like the buckler club, buckler and spear or like blowpipe and, uh, and a little whatever club or whatever it is. So I like that they gave all the loadouts. I like the chameleon. I think the, the boss is, is truly boss. That guy is amazing with this thermal detonator. Threatening job. Yes. But again, how can you be the combat as Mike said, the come at me bro. I just, I, I'm sorry. Maybe it's just, you know what, here's what I'll grant for the source. Perhaps it's just the angle that they decided to set him at for this picture. It could very well be they oftentimes do not take pictures of their models at the best angles. Um, so like when I see a 360 view, you know, fine, it could be different. The skinkies are amazing. Their muscle structure so clean, the little like the, the delicacy around their jaws and stuff is so much better defined than the previous version, like the detail in their jaws. Uh, the, the chief with his like tongue going like, ah, like that's, that's great. That's great. Everything about this is great. So, uh, except for, except for constipated source. Uh, you know, only a year late. Sure. Sure. But hey, yeah, we first saw the first rumor engines for this back in like, um, March of last year. Um, Oh, wow. The month after the book dropped. Sure. Sure. Sure. Uh, but at any rate, it's a cool warband and I really dig it. And as cool as this was, and by the way, this is cool. I love that like blowpipe skink is actually like puffing out his cheeks to blow the blowpipe dart. All of that's great feather dude is great with his, his spear arm up in the air. All of this is truly wonderful. But the best thing about this article had nothing to do with Seraphon and in fact had everything to do with this guy. More vampires. That's right. That's right. Uh, that's what I would, I mean, like let's face it, but let's what this is what we're all here for. Look, I know Seraphon people. I know you, I know you're excited about your Seraphon warband. I know you are. But it's, but this will be the shortest celebration of a warband ever because this is, this is like being a really good opening act, but you're opening for like the stones at their height or the Beatles or like whatever, pick your poison. It's like, Hey, great stock models, bro. Like now let's see the real things. Like this is going to be like this. This is, yeah. This is, this is no competition. Just this silhouette is more exciting to me than that entire warband I just saw. Uh, true story. Yeah. March they said for this. Yeah. Vampire. Yep. Cool. All right. We'll probably see it in February, maybe. Uh, yeah. Well, I would imagine probably February is when they'll preview it. Yeah. Cause they seemed like clearly this one ran a month ahead. No, I would anticipate a preview show at the end of this month. Sure. If they do an LVO replacement preview show. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And AOS McBeth sounds awesome by the by somebody said it looks like a Shakespearean actor pose. Coach said that. And, uh, yes, I would, I mean, I have zero problem with that. Absolutely. So, uh, GW if you're watching, uh, get a hold of Vince and I will do a reaction video for you. If you want to like show us a video ahead of time and you can use that for your promo. Sure. Just us going like. In fact, just screencap that. I guess we just gave it a gave the game away. You don't even need to actually now zoom in. Yeah. Edit it in. And we won't actually get to see the model. Another opportunity missed. Screwed it up again. Darn it. Uh, yeah. Very excited for this. Obviously. Um, yeah. I hope we see these guys. Soonish. I either. Yes. An LVO preview or February is when we'll see them February. Sorry. So there you go. I'm excited. Like they're, they're coming. Which is really a bummer because I just dropped a bunch of money on KO. So. It's not a bummer because you've got time. Like realistically that this underworlds warband is going to precede whatever we get for death by probably at least a month. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Like you've got probably three months, four months, five months before you're talking about having that, that hot, hot death action in your hands. So. Yeah. So you can knock out that KO. All right. Could I, could I get the TLDR version of the Warhammer Weekly death chat from a week or two ago that I still need to catch up on? Yeah. Yeah. We think there is a new death army coming April or May, likely May. My money would be on May. It'll be a reasonably sized death release. We will get new blood nights. I'm standing behind this. I've stood behind this for like months now. I've made this call. I refuse to move an inch. I'm hoping there will be a vampire. It's a section within it with like a new more Tark. Somebody like a more Tark of the abyss, like a Luther Hark on type of thing. You're hoping that there will be a vampire. Like leave some things dead and behind in the old world, but if it's him, I'm not going to complain. Like he's a cool dude. And, but at any rate, we'll see a bunch of re-sculpts of the other parts of the line beyond just vampires, other death stuff. Yeah. In a perfect world, it's a broader vampire kind of centric release with a small corner carved out for vampires. More likely what it is, is that this war band will be in the book as a vampire at war band with no additional vampires. That's what I'm hoping. It's not true, but that's probably what's true. Like I'm, I'm mentally preparing myself for that. And then hopefully it will surprise me. So because of that, you know, somebody gave a really interesting comment to one of the death shows we did from a couple weeks back that I read today. And I don't remember who it was. So if it was you, I apologize. If you're wondering who it was, you know, and I don't remember who it was. So if it was you, I apologize. If you're watching right now, feel free to drop it in the comments, but they brought up the background story that Van Brecht, so our hero from, from broken realms and morality, right? His sister is a vampire. Okay. And it's like, is like, yeah. And it like, well, they never directly say that she's Van Brecht sister, but her last name is like, it's something, something Van Brecht. So it's clearly meant to be related. And she like woke up the, like there's this, it was in a book I didn't read. So I'm very poorly recounting this story. And I apologize. But, oh, there you go. Casey said it. Yeah. All right. Rock on, Casey. He isn't in the chat. Okay. So he can feel free to supplement anything I get wrong here because I'm sure I'll get something wrong. But he woke up like some kind of undead king. She woke up. Sorry. Some undead kings. Nagash got all pissed off to protect her family in her village or something. And she got all pissed off. Tamara Van Brecht. Thank you very much, Casey. And Nagash shows up and he's like, hey, I didn't say you could wake those people up. She was like a necromancer or whatever, right? I didn't say you could wake those people up. You feel so important. You want to protect your people? Do you think that's such an important thing for you? Fine. I'll kill you all and I'll raise you all. You're a vampire now and you're charged to forever protect these people. And she goes and like sails off at the end. All right. And so there you go. Maybe it's her. So who said it's his great grandmother? Okay. Sure. There you go. So related to him in some way. That's neat. So the point is, is that that'd be a neat tie-in. And if she like she could be the warband person. Right. I mean, you know, there's like the leader of the warband in the punch out from last, from the preview seems to be a female vampire. It'd be cool if it was like Tamara Van Brecht, right? Or whatever. Like the, the Nagash focused book that this happens in. So that would also explain maybe it was her that went and bailed him out of jail, right? Oh, that's a good call. At the end of that. Because she's a big powerful vampire. So that's full shout out. That was not me who found that. I have not read that book. That was KC. He's in the chat. When he laid out this story in the comments, I was like, oh my God, like that's pretty, that seems pretty accurate. That just feels too long on the nose. Yeah. A little bit too much on the nose. Like we got the hint back in the Shadespire thing that they, like if you were reading closely, you knew when Sigvald's soul was found, right? Because they mentioned the KO team in Shadespire, whatever they found him. Found it. They didn't say found Sigvald. They said found the most vain being in the mortal realms, right? I'm not sure that's going to have an effect on the real world. But a lot of people are going to like, if I leave myself and go out there and say, oh my God, how does that happen? And I don't know. I'm like, oh, I'm sorry. But I'm not going to say that, I'm kind of like, I can't get into that conversation just by being scared, but that's kind of, kind of the way I feel about it. I'm like, I, I'm really excited for that. I just feel like it's kind of a very touching story. And I, so I was just like, like, it's really, you know, it's kind of like the, Yeah absolutely. Do you guys cover whether you think that we're gonna get a lot of the existing kits removed and in terms of our like we're gonna get an L1 2.0 that has with vampires? Yeah I mean my money is we will get an L1 2.0. I do think we'll see a couple kits go and I do think we'll also get new units. Like not just re-sculpts I think we will get complete like blood knights are re-sculpt who knows what else they remake. But my money's on like werewolves or flesh golems or mummies or you know some other classic gothic horror trope that we don't have in the army yet right? I don't know which one it was but something like that. I don't inherently disagree with that but I think some of the stuff is just gonna get deep sixed. Like Night Haunt's gonna be out of that book. Not entirely by the way he's saying he just means you can. You can ally maybe but not have it as part of your army. Yeah right because like it'll be condensed back around the vampire core of Soul Blight and that kind of thing because even the like two thirds of the legions well I guess technically Nagash had his own legion. Like I wouldn't be surprised if we say it this way. If Nagash gets pulled out completely as this overarching thing and it focuses on like legion of blood, legion of night and some other type of legion and I don't they may not even be called legions of Nagash anymore right? Like that but it's focuses on like this vampire aristocracy leadership core right and then their minions. That wouldn't surprise me at all. Yeah that makes sense cool. So we'll see what happens. Alright so we have one more piece of news I believe. One more pseudo small piece of news. A financial report rolled in. Yes. Apparently CW is doing well. Yes that's that is a they are now a $3.6 billion company. That's very big just so we're all okay. It's not you know I mean it's not. It's not whether to the coast big. No it's not it like certainly there are many bigger companies but $3.6 billion is a massive multinational company. Yep yep. Like third most successful in the UK. Probably yes. It traditionally has performed very well in the FTSE yes. And the my hope would be that this finally puts to bed the concept that tournament players matter at all. Okay in a year without tournaments now given they did release a new version of 40k right which is like just that is nitrous getting injected into the fuel supply right. So at any rate the the you know there's zero tournaments going on the competitive scene is basically non existent out for most of the year outside of Australia and New Zealand where they've where they've mostly mostly still been able to continue having tournaments quite often right. And on computers. And the yes and on computers yes that should say that now it's true but I mean my point is that doesn't require the sale of figs. There's been plenty of TTS tournaments zero figs were sold for TTS tournaments. So at any rate the but but yet they had their highest sales numbers ever by a very vast margin. Also everybody in the world was locked in their house. Sure. That helps hobby. There's there's there's a complex story here. Okay for sure. I don't want to oversimplify like a lot of people turned into hobby a lot of people probably bought stuff as retail therapy a lot of people might have had more time to hobby. A lot of people might have taken this opportunity to sit down and paint people who do travel to tournaments might have had disposable income they weren't using to spend on traveling hotels to go buy figs. Right. So like it's you know there is a complicated tapestry here. But my point is is that in a game where almost no one was able to play games they were still very successful. Their concept has always been that they are successful if they make the coolest models. Right. Right. And that the rules are important but they are secondary. Everybody tends to see this is like some kind of light switch binomial like if models are important then rules don't matter at all that's not ever been their theory. They are but they they know that what butters their bread is the models first and foremost and I think this year if nothing else is quite a correlating proof point of that. Yeah. Yeah absolutely. So I just thought that was interesting lots of there was lots of cool stuff in there. The CEO made a statement that they are going to continue on the path that they feel is appropriate and not bow to like outside. I'm very much paraphrasing so please do read his statement don't take my word exactly for it but the paraphrase was something to the something to the effect of like we're not going to bow to outside investors and market pressures or something like that. I mean I'm very much putting more of a flourish on that that I'm sure he did although he does talk in pretty plain language in his introduction. The point being is I was actually happy to hear that. I think that is hedging on his part because investors need to realize that next year the numbers could be down and that wouldn't actually be a negative like the sort of permanent growth requirement in a year where they don't release a new edition of 40 K and have an endominus box set and relaunch the entire space marine line. It's hard you know like you know. Yeah, absolutely. So he could just be hedging for investors because they're not going to understand expectations. Yeah right right. So that's good. You know they could they could release like for just bangers of AOS armies next year like I'm talking new stuff or or vast resculpts right for just bangers that we're all like. We're doing shows we're shouting from the rooftops people are losing their minds. And then we could like also completely redo I don't know like Craftworld or something and it wouldn't it wouldn't come close to touching like endometus plus redoing the entire space marine line. Right there's just not the same player base there. So anyways, it was cool to check out the financial statement if you want to see more. And so it does seem that they've been sitting on a gold mine though with Craftworld Eldar particular for about 20 years with some of those scopes I mean there's so many players have been waiting forever for that line to get updated. Yeah it's funny because so many of the scopes, especially like the vehicle stuff actually holds up really well. Really. Yeah, they do yeah. Yeah, I mean people still paint those vehicles all the time and put them in competitions and stuff because they're just amazing like the Eldar Vietnam in general. But a lot of the troops in the Craftworld Eldar are showing their age. But this isn't a 40k show so yes they could do a great job. From the rumor engines don't worry get works first so who knows. Anything else news wise I think that's it right Tom. Yeah, I think that's it. Alright, then I am marking the time as we go to our pick of the week. Alright. You guys better go first because I'm going to do my point of privilege as usual on the show too. That's fine. Tom, you go ahead. Get ready. Darren wants and has a blog with the honest war gamer where he talks tactics and he does and recently he's been doing interviews and stuff. And he did a wonderful interview with Adam Trunzo. If you all don't know Adam, it is worth like checking him out. He, he's a wonderful gamer. He's a gem of a person he does just out of this world hobby he's on Twitter. And obviously all this but the but Darren did an interview with Adam. And just talking about his hobby and Adam is a wonderfully competitive player as well. He in fact is the one that that like shut me down at that last a con on table two in the last game. Stop me from you know winning. But he's a great gamer fantastic he does just stunning beautiful hobby. And it's just a wonderful interview with him. I love seeing him get some some limelight and so check it out. Check out the interview. So what the link down below. Nice. I will I will link that down there. I've got two this week. But I'll be quick with mine. Number one, our buddy hooves of doom who's in the chat his wonderful channel. He has a great new video talking about humans place in a US and how do you make humans interesting in the mortal realms. And I fully support what he eventually comes to it's interesting because he talks about how they tried to do it in 40 K. And kind of where that didn't work in the line and how we could probably circumvent that in the more realms and I completely support it. Love the video. Great video. I'll link it down below. Option number two, crazy horse. Mr. Anthony Pocastro who's in the chat he he has he has a 3D printing terrain machine and he has a Etsy shop set up where he is selling 3D terrain for people. So you can I will link his shop down below you can go there. Check it out. He supplies he supplied all of the terrain for for Nova, which is incredible. He has a bunch of terrain that we will have at the next. What did I just say? Did I say Nova? Sorry, the train for Nashcon, which is incredible and David did a great job painting it. He has also supplied a bunch of terrain to Nova, which we haven't got to use yet because you know this last year sucked. But hopefully this year will be better and we'll all get to see it. So there we go. You can now also check that out too. I did not realize that he had an Etsy shop. So I believe he just started it like today or yesterday or very recently. So he has a he's working on a project for myself right now. Oh, very nice. Very cool. All right, Tyler, take us away. All right, here we go. Let's do it quickly. Do the darkness. Better known as smiles and rainbows among his close friends. New bat rep Zeech versus doc. Awesome bat rep. It's going to cover one of the lists that we'll feature here tonight. Cron running Cobra Kai, all snakes all the time. Excellent battle report. I've been watching a lot of AOS coach talking series LRO with Marty Orlando was really good. And of course, Chuck did a couple with coach recently on doc trickles out. Cubic shenanigans podcast. They did an amazing episode covering sun zoos, the art of war through the lens of AOS. First, I use the lessons all the time. It was really good. Dan has a military backgrounds. And so yeah, Dan and Brandon had a fascinating conversation in relation to that book. Season of war is an amazing boundary report channel that started by guy named Jordan Duncan. Folks may have seen him on Twitter. He's a Canadian awesome dude. He is pumping out. I think some of the best bat rep contents. So season war definitely check that out. And then finally, a better channel that's not that well known is called a small town geek. Small town geek. Relatively new, but they've been doing some really cool reports. So I just want to give them a shout out as well. And that's it. Your Tyler makes up for all the shows he's not on. I didn't like two minutes. No, it was fantastic. It was great. All of that will be linked below. All of it. All of that. Good stuff. Yes. I mean, what Tyler just showed is how amazing this community is and how many people are making fantastic content. So I will, I will link it all down below. As to Jose said, can you link it in the chat? I can't directly. Other people can't link into a YouTube chat, but they will all be linked down in the description. The only reason I can't is because I have to do other things and run the show. So I can't print them all in there real quick. But I promise you they will be down in the description so you can reference down there. Final bit of thing I want to mention before we go to hobby time is just that the survey will be closing tonight. So if you have not yet completed the negative play experience survey, please do so. We've gotten a good number of responses, but obviously it's a little more complicated survey. So we're a little below where the previous one was. I'm happy with what we've got, but I'd love to have more. The results are going to be very, very interesting. It's going to take me a little while to go through all of the data and put it into something that is reasonable. So we'll do that show in a few weeks. If you have not yet filled out the survey, do so. The link is down in the description right now. That is already preloaded. So you can check that out. Ebert says, who were the Sun Zoo guys? Cubic shenanigans. Yes, there you go. Cubic like a cube and shenanigans like the thing that you will get pistol whipped for if you mention it one more time. So there we go. Okay. That's a podcast. Yes, it is a podcast. All right. So with that, let's turn to some hobby time. All right, hobby time. So, Tyler, what would you like to talk about for your hobby time? I've got more links to share. Now I'm checking. Absolutely. As usual broken record, I don't pay so much. I wanted to give a few shout outs to some cool hobby that's going on the TTS. There were two amazing tournament formats. One by Owen Jackson, the fat middle named after our own Vince. Or maybe Tom, you came up with that and Vince took credit for it. We had this discussion of who created it because there's the three of us on a show when we first rolled it out. I have to go back and watch the show. So I'm taking. I think it was Vince. Yeah, I think it was. So, Owen's been doing this incredible series called Hammer Time on TTS, about every other weekend on a Saturday, he does an event, 40, 50, 60 players, and he did one on the fat middle. So he removed the, I'm not sure how he determined it, but in his view, the top five is how he determined it, 12 hundred games of TTS rankings. Okay, awesome. Cool. So, yeah, I think Luminath was probably out of there. Seraphon was out of there. And then, yeah, what I was left in the field, I think it was the first round and it was led to some incredible lists we put together. So maybe we can include, like, if anyone's interested, some of those lists. And then the second format was Adam Mumford. He did a Secret Santa event over the holiday with Darren Watson. And so Darren and Adam created various lists, sort of themed, wild lists, and you would randomly get assigned one of these lists that you'd have to play in a three round event. I think you had a way that you could maybe take a pass and get another random one. Like, you had one chance to get a different list, but it was really cool, again, what kind of list they came up with. So kind of something a little bit different. And then there was two introductions to TTS. One by Prydy Roll podcast that went down really good. Mark Brooks is on the show. Mark has done really well, a lot of TTS events. And then Rob with Honest Wargamer, he did an intro this week as well on YouTube. So, yeah, folks are curious. I mean, there's a lot of resources out there nowadays, so you can check out in terms of how to get going on TTS. Yeah, absolutely. And that Secret Santa event was kind of the perfect thing. To me, that's actually using TTS in the best possible way, because it's the kind of thing you couldn't really do in real life, right? Right. Because they just randomly made lists. Well, not randomly. I mean, they made lists. They were all, randomly is the wrong word. They made lists that they thought would be fun and interesting and, you know, just different to play. And you got the list the day before. So, 24 hours before game one, you got the list. So, you had a day to look into it, learn what the units did and stuff like that. Again, you couldn't do that type of thing in real life, because you don't know what fakes people have and stuff like that, right? Right. But in TTS where it's just, you know, assets that are getting dropped in, you can do it. And it was really, really fun to watch all these weird, crazy lists, battle it out. So, it was cool. Yeah, like, here's some quick examples. We've got, I think I'm looking at like 10 by 10, 10 units of 10 Shadow Warriors with an assassin, Rathakane and the Shadow Queen and a, you know, 20 heart renders and a spell portal thrown in. Or the, we've seen a cockatrice list, a cockatrice span, that was one. A list with three soul grinders. Running like the Iron Demon or whatever, Battalion? Yeah. Yeah, Demon's Steel Contingent. There you go. Yeah. Completely off, yeah. It's really, I found the document amazing, just in terms of the list that you've seen. Obviously Darren in particular is pretty well known for, yeah, his inventiveness in terms of list writing. But yeah, really cool. Very nice. All right, Tom, your hobby time. I think I'm supposed to bring up pictures here. So that's fine. Yeah. I did a hobby. And so, you know what? I wanted to show off some of my hobby this week. So we're starting, Tom, with the unpainted guys. Your newest conversion. Oh, boo. That's the order you sent them in. Learn how to send pictures. I hate you. Okay. So this is the new thing that I did this week was I converted over a bunch of, like, I had Bugman's and I had, I needed something to do with Bugman's. And so, Bugman, and so, somebody, I saw somebody had done some, like, Thunderer conversions. And I got to thinking about, like, Bugman, he used to have a unit of Rangers. And so I was like, you know what? I'm going to make Bugman's Rangers. And so I made a Thunderer unit of Bugman stuff. All, once I get these guys, like, all done up and painted up, I will have a full, like, 360 view of these guys because, like, a lot of bit work went into these gentlemen. Because of just, like, trying to get all of the everything. Yeah. So it's going to be a mixed weapons unit of Bugman's. I have five more Thunderers that I may do conversions on. But these use torsos from, like, because, like, it's interesting, if you actually look at Bugman, like, I thought he was wearing a Thunderer outfit. But when I got to looking at it, he actually has the headrest of an Endron Rigger. Yeah. Okay. And so, because of that, I had three Endron Rigger bodies. So then I did, like, some of those. And then, like, the munitions explosives guy that has the mortar. I did him in, like, an Arkonot thing because he had a bunch of explosives on him already. And so anyway, so I'll have, like, full views of these guys. I've done five. I may do a unit of 10. So we'll see. And if I get really anxious, I'll do the rum runner frigate. They're named frigate for my additional frigate that I'm going to paint up. Very nice. Yeah. So I'm working on these guys. I thought it would be a nice, I had a bunch of extra Thunderers and a bunch of extra bits. And so I decided to explore, took some inspiration from the Bugman model itself and made out a whole unit. So. All right. Your next one is going to be your converted. So from the nicest, coolest narrative thing to the filthiest, most awful thing. Tom, explain what these little weird depth charges that are sitting on the screen right now. What are these three strange depth charges? Oh, that's my war-flight-name vortex. So that's what happens when you call in an airstrike. And that's what arrives. So I'm dropping bombs. And I, when the book first dropped and I began looking, I stumbled upon these bits in the 40k stuff and I was like, oh yeah. Oh yeah, this is it. This is what I need, but it didn't have enough of the canisters. So like the long canisters were part of it. So I went and got a bunch of the like dynamite stick things from the rest of the engine rigour units and filled that in and then got some of the bombs from the iron drake units and attached that in and then added some of the sky mines from the skywardens. So that's my war-flight-name vortex. They're ready to, you know, it's thematic. Like you got a call in the airstrike, right? True. It's thematic. This awful spell. I hope this becomes 140 points post the FAQ, Tom. Exactly. Yeah, you know what's going to happen, Tom? It's going to be useless in a week or two. It's fine. You know what? I'm okay with that. I have some wonderful bombs. That's right. And if nothing else, they're on 32 mil or no, those are on 40. Shoot. They're on 32 mils. I'll use them as like substitutes for thunder or something. Sure. Sure. I'll rip them off and put them on 32s. Interesting objective markers for the game. Right. Indeed. There you go. Indeed. And then finally, one more. Tom had a lot of hobby. So now then the single guy, this guy. You're seeing. Yeah. Just a standard. Just banged out a quick navigator. So they didn't really do any conversions other than the standard mohawk, but the mohawk actually looks good because of the, of the lines from the beard and everything. Yeah, sure. It creates a nice, it creates a nice moon shape. Uh-oh. Yeah. See a goblin under there secretly. Yeah. So anyway. So just a couple of fun, quick, quick things. I just want to say I agree with Russ. It is better than using the stock model. I'd rather die to your custom, uh, Warp Lightning Vortex than to, uh, a, than to, to the real spell. You know, your, your spell is also much less annoying to set up because I actually greatly disliked the design of the Warp Lightning Vortex with all the little thingies shooting off the side. It actually makes it really annoying to just set up on the board because it just starts talking figs over. I have one more that I'm starting on. Right here. Right here. Can you see this? Sure. You see that? Yeah. You're demon fire. Yes. There you go. Yeah. So, so he's coming. That's your backup just in case the Warp Lightning Vortex goes south. Yeah. Sure. Yeah. And so hell. Yep. There you go. Yep. So there we go. So that'll be one of the next ones. So. Very nice. What is that thing right now? 60 points? 70 points? 80. 80. Well, they're both 80 points for now. It's this game cost. Yeah. All right. And yes, Tom, your army is gorgeous. I agree with Russ. He said it was good to see it at adeptcon. And I agree. And we all can't have adeptcon come back soon enough. I want to, I miss seeing everybody's armies so much, like just being able to walk around and see armies set up and on the tables. Yeah. Ugg. All right. Yeah. Okay. For my hobby time, I got a couple chaos chariots done, two out of the three for my, for my, well, I don't remember the name of the box is the thing that, the box that comes with three chariots, it's whatever. So I got two of them done. I ended up saving one because it's just kind of good to have an extra chariot around. I've got some things I might want to do with it, but I'm just kind of holding out. So I got two of these done. And that finishes up. I think everything I want for my Crimson Cabal, this was like the last thing because now I can run full Ruinbringer in the way that I want to run it, which is the mortal wound impact all mounted Cav list, which is really fun when, because then your chariot impacts and does its own mortal wounds and then does the Ruinbringer mortal wounds and, you know, good times. Who doesn't love that? And then now it's time to, this weekend I'll be working on these guys right here, which is the, the Dread pageant. We're getting right into the Cilinesh mortals. So I've got these four guys put together and primed up. Sadly, these were sent to me. And you know who you were. So thank you very much. I deeply appreciate this. And unfortunately this dude's little spear snapped off. Like it was just missing. I don't know where it went, but who cares? Okay, so raw. That's okay. Because I happen to have this extra big axe because I converted different weapons for all of the chariot drivers. And I really like the big axe from the, from the back of the chariot. So I just gave him big axe. So now I'm trying to patch him as big axe. He's got axe for you. And so the, so that's, that's my hobby time as well. I haven't been able to paint as much this week because I'm working on a bunch of like video related stuff. Like this has been, this is a week of like deep diving videos and I'm trying to get a bunch of stuff recorded and make a couple of big special videos that'll be coming out over the next couple months. So, so I've been trying to dive into that. Also, just in case, I don't know if John's watching right now, but John, Nenus, if you're watching, or if you watch this later, don't think that you can just do a wrap intro to my videos on your podcast and I'm not going to do something with that. So that's all I'll say. Okay. So there we go. All right. Trap Thunder Plastic. Yeah, John and Scott do a podcast called Trap Thunder Plastic and it's, it's fantastic. So at any rate. Okay. So, Tom, may I just say how excited and happy I am to see all of your progress in the hobby, by the way, like this year, you're painting a tremendous amount of stuff and like this forward momentum is great. It's, it's funny because like, I just had like a, like a battle force box and a new KO getting started. And I just looked at it and I was like, what are the lists that I'm wanting to run? What do I have? What do I do not have? And so now I'm like at absurd numbers. Like I'm going to be at like 24 rigors, 24 sky wardens. I'm going to have like 50 thunders maybe painted up. So yeah. So it's going to be, it's going to be silly talk. So, but that's what I'm working on. So, and I'm just going to kind of push through and again, I love the army. Like even if I'm not, even if like I'm not putting it on the table a whole lot or whatever. So, well, they'll certainly be a chance to your points to go back up slightly. You'll still have plenty of good viable lists and then you'll be bulletproof for a long time. So, right. There you go. I'll just, I'll gravitate to the things that their points don't go up. Yeah, sure. All right. Listen, you've gotten all the options now. I mean, that's what happens when you get an army. You really love. I count it out. And I've got, I, the last units I finished for slinnish took me to seven and a half. A thousand points of slinnish, right? Um, so I'm hoping the mortals will get me over, over 10K. When you've got that, you can just run any, anything you want, like any consistency of anything you want. And which is, it's great. Okay. Cool beans. So with that, gentlemen, let's get to our main topic. The daughters of Cain, post broken realms. Um, okay. So, uh, what I'm going to do here first is actually, I'm just going to straight bring up one of these lists to do. Uh, we're going to, we're not going to talk directly about it, but I'm going to bring it up here on the screen. Uh, and we can, we can get into it as we, as we go through. Before we get into specific lists, I want to just have a conversation about, you know, where we think daughters of Cain are at, post FAQ, right? And, sorry, pre FAQ, I apologize. Post Murathi, pre FAQ. Yep. My strong belief is that I don't think they're going to change that much in the FAQ. Okay. You're saying points wise or you're saying, uh, ability wise. Yeah. Sure. Okay. Yes. I think this army will basically remain the same throughout the FAQ. I think there might be a little tiny adjustment here or there, but it will not be enough. Like the army's been out for a long time. They resisted making huge changes when it seemed to be the most egregious. Right. Right. I can't see now being the time that suddenly they, they curve ball us. Okay. Uh, Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I hear that. So to me, it's, it's going to be, uh, my guess is it'll be fine. Now, um, at the same time, I, what I want to talk about is, I feel that daughters of cane in broken realms, Marathi was one of the most successful, uh, rules, expansions, packs, whatever we want to say that they introduced. Okay. Amen. In that book, it opened up new play elements that are competitive without being broken. We can talk about whether or not we think they're as good as like just sort of using some elements of the original and, you know, putting it into the existing architecture. That's all fine. I don't care. The point's not that it had to be better than what was there before. In fact, I wouldn't have wanted it to be quite honestly, but it opened up new good and competitive avenues. It made basically all of the units in the army now viable. Right. Uh, introduced, uh, a new, we got at the same time we happen to get these new unit, namely the, the shadow stalkers, which opens up as well. Interesting possibilities. To me, the daughters of cane without getting a new book are in the best place they've been ever, like ever, literally ever. You're saying from a balance standpoint? Yeah, I'm from an internal balance standpoint. I'm not going, I'm not talking in external balance. I'm saying internal balance. Yeah. That doesn't mean they're perfect or that we couldn't, you know, that I couldn't see things continue to change around here or there. I'm saying this is the best they've ever been from an internal balance perspective. Yeah. I think that's the case. This army, uh, falling in love with this army and this is probably going to be the next army that I invest heavily into getting. Uh, it's, it's extraordinary. I mean, I was going to pull the trigger on it when it came out. It was close to, but the snake bows were pretty terrible as we all knew at the time. And, you know, a snake every bill wasn't going to be, it seemed like it was going to be hard to find that three, two, having a good shot at four, one that I like personally hang out in and that's been fixed now, but it has incredible viable variety. Uh, you know, the different profiles, it's got big medium footprints, small footprint in terms of model size. Uh, it's just amazing. Yeah. I think this is, to me, this is one of the most exciting of any AOS factions that are out there right now in terms of variety, competitiveness, aesthetics, uh, rules, how it plays. Uh, yeah, I'm really loving it. Yeah. I completely agree. Tom, your, uh, your 40,000 foot feeling right now. Yeah. I mean, what I would say is that I still think that Hagnar is, for me, the go-to choice, but, but, um, that could very easily change with an FAQ or an Erata. Um, but even then, I think there are viable, compelling, interesting options in the other spaces. And an Erata to like bump up, uh, Craith, for example, to a five and a six, something like that would be, uh, would make those things way more, um, enticing with, even with Hagnar being what Hagnar is. That's what I would say. Yeah. Absolutely. Okay. Cool. So let's just do a little basic rundown. Just bring everybody up to speed. Right. We'll be fast. Right. I'm sure most people have watched the broken realm show, but I want to make sure we're all on the same page with what's changed. Right. Right. So, Marathi, you now have both Marathi's on the table. So you have little Marathi or baby Marathi and then big Marathi. Right. And big Marathi hits like a Mack truck now. Yes. Yeah. And because of this, she is more expensive, but also very much worth her points are combined 600 points. You can't take one without the other. You buy one. You buy both. Right. And the little one ends up, they share wounds. She can never take more than three wounds per turnout period under any circumstance. And she really gives you both utility and offense at the same time. Baby Marathi can be a really interesting pinning unit. She can be, she does a little bit of damage on her own. She's not a machine, but she can actually hit because she can't take more than three wounds. Like it doesn't matter. She's effectively this immune pinning piece. She's a good caster in the army, has a very nice war scroll spell that can deal decent damage, always acts as the general. So her commandability is always potential and viable. And she can use it there, even if she's not actually the general, which is of course she has to shoot twice or fight twice. Commandability. I mean, she is a, she is a total package. She's what you want to do. Yeah. It gives you another model for 12 inch reroll. Well, you don't really have the charge, but like a run, you know, maybe a run of six or something, but you have another 12 inch or whole open 18 for the real ones to hit. It's great. Steed of Shadows is a really awesome trick. Thanks to Jesse Gayheart that I've learned about. In terms of the shadows on her, 16 inch movement fly helps with her pinning. She's got three spells. So you could do an endless spell, you know, an aggressive offensive in the spell plus black or vulgar, potentially on the spell that in the spell and recast it and still have another spell left for black or vulgar, you know, bump up her offensive output on the spells. Yeah, she, it's that. Yeah. Those two models and how they play it's so much fun. Yeah. And they do on the table. I would have never thought to take. Oh, no, no. Like before I had a non-Marathi list, but when the meta changed, I stuck with Marathi because of her unique tools. Now I would never think to make a dockless without Marathi ever. She's very strong. I don't know if she's auto, but she's pretty close. I was going to say, we might want to look at a list or two or just talk later on about a list or two and what you can do outside of taking her. I mean, 600 points to each point. So you can get quite a bit, but that'd be worth looking at because you can get. Yeah. It's a pretty interesting list without her. You can get quite a bit, but I don't know if it's ever going to have the utility that she brings between all of it. Like, I could see doing like, if you were going to do a hardcore on without her, that makes sense. But a, but it's like for doc, like I just, I've tried a bunch of different permutations and it just feels like I'm always leaving a tool, you know, off the table when I don't add her to the list. Yeah. Yeah. She really does not like debuffs. So you got to be careful with that. I mean, she has a base, base threes and threes. So yeah, I've been running her without the points to really like take a hat queen because it's either a hat queen or it's, you know, the screens and shadow. Sockers marketing are the most efficient screens right now. 100 points for nine models as opposed to 120 for 10 models or, you know, 80 points for five models, but then you're not really getting a sufficient screen in terms of wrapping or whatever. And of course they call for it. So, but yeah, got to be careful because yeah, there are situations where she can go in and flub it. But yeah, in general, can hit like a truck. Yeah. So in the other things we got are obviously, we got our new Cobra Kai, which was misprinted in the book as Zainthar Kai, but obviously it's actually Cobra Kai is the name of the new temple we have, which is mainly snake and harpy focused temple. Strike hard, strike fast, no mercy, that kind of thing. Yeah, correct. Which gives you a command ability to bump up attacks. Marathi yourself can bump up snake attacks. The iron scale gives you that got introduced through the shadow and pain box, who has the ability to make your snakes real fast because they can run in charge and they get a 2D6 run. I'm not going to count her. She could like technically as printed, she can add plus one to attacks. It would be very rare. I think you would actually get able to be able to use that. I don't care. Her point is as a slingshot mechanism for your snakes. Like that's why she's there. Right. Right. And your sisters obviously got a lot better in the ability to shoot more between just their shots and Marathi, between what they shoot and how many times they shoot and then being able to double tap with Marathi around. It's impressive the ranged output that you now can do with this army. Yeah. Between those, the stare or the gaze from the shadow queen, you know, potentially Medusa in a key spot, light up a big unit with a 10 inch dice per model. Every five is immortal. And then, yeah, those double tapping snake bows. Amazing. Especially Calibron with that teleport and the threat. Amazing how such a small change. Yeah. Yeah. We were talking about it, I mean, multiple times, but yeah, like a day or two before we saw it or maybe a week before we were chatting about it on Facebook. Yeah. Just that little change. Yep. Absolutely. I mean, it's proof that sometimes things just need a small tweak and they can actually be, you know, completely change the value of the unit. At the same time, we also got three new battalions, two of which were good. So that's exciting. So that's cool. And, you know, I mean, when you think about what that may, what that means, what this is all culminated in, right, is that you mentioned the shadow stalkers. We also got this really cool, interesting teleporting unit that can be chaff that could actually be an offensive unit, even though it's kept rather small. I think it still actually can, if you hyper buff it, they'll go, they will go full ham. So the important part here is you're looking at a book with, I think, some really, really strong internal balance because every unit in the army, you'll make a list that has it, maybe with the exception of Doomfire Warlocks being kind of the weird standout. I know, Tom has shot your damn bow. I know, shut up, Tom. Okay. Hey, I didn't think Curry did well with like 10 Doomfire Warlocks at Blood and Glory last year, or not last year, but year before. How about we just say the presence and place of Doomfire Warlocks remains controversial? Sure, that's right. I mean, what other unit can you get on a four up and give them a re-rollable save from cogs? Okay. You can attempt that weird janky trick that wouldn't work, but yes, you can do it. Like give them a re-rollable four up, re-rollable five up. No, that's very exciting in a meta with spell bombs everywhere that will just eat or be like, oh, you don't have that cogs, so please get that out of here. It's a great plan to pin your entire army to that. Spell bombs. They don't last forever. Sure. No, I understand. Look, I'm just talking, like I'm saying, they're the only questionable unit. To me, everything else has got play. Yep. Absolutely. That's true. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, Slonder Queen on reminder, maybe to put a pen for later, the Slonder Queen on foot in certain lists in terms of that commandability. Uh-huh. Maybe stacking with Marathi Cain commandability. I think she's bad. Okay. Well, that was another one that comes to mind as, yeah, I'm wondering if there's much to be said about taking her, because I don't see her in that many lists, the Slonder Queen on foot. No, she's terrible. Like, she, like, to me, if there's one miss, she is the miss. She just doesn't compete for her points with the Haggling. Mm-hmm. Sure. You're not going to push her into a unit to start chopping. You're just not, um, until that, yeah. Is it one benefit of your commandability that you can do it in your opponent's hero phase? Yeah, but why not? But why would you have her on foot? She has to be your general. And why would you have her on foot when you, I would rather have a Slonder Culver. Yeah, sure. Oh, she has to be the general to do that commandability. I should just pull it up while we're talking here. Look at it. I haven't looked at it for a while. Yeah, that's historically been the problem with Doc, is that only your general can use her commandability. So she actually doesn't even have a commandability because she's not your general. So, like, the iron scale being a notable exception with her. Yeah. Right. Old book. Old book. Okay. Remember, remember in AOS one, you had to be the general to use a commandability. Remember that? Right. Yup. Okay. So at any rate, let's break into some lists because that's going to be, these lists are going to be the way we can talk about these. One of the questions that was asked was, do we think that the new battalions are going to be usable in any temple? Yes, I do. I do think they'll be usable in any temple because they didn't print the restriction they normally print in the battalion text that says, you must be of this type of army to take this battalion which they often print. Which they'll usually print. I trust the match play chart over the fluff text. Sure. Sure. Like, the reason why is like, I would anticipate that like testers and all that have those charts in the front of their faces way more than the fluff text. Who knows if that stuff is even in, was even in what was sent out to our testers. Right. For tonight we're going to, that is by the way, I think a question that they will answer in the FAQ because I know like 50 people sent that question in. So I don't know how they'll not answer it. Right. But regardless, we're just going to assume tonight the answer is yes because I legitimately believe that's what it'll come down as. Sure. If we're wrong. Hey, oops. But it's more interesting if it's, if you can take them in the existing temples because then there's, then the world becomes much more actual, much better than you want. So. Yeah. And you're certainly not busting anything if you allow that in my opinion. Yeah. It's yeah. That's flavor and yeah. Righty. But yeah. Nothing's going to get broken. Yep. I agree. Okay. So you want to, you want to take us through Tyler. This is we're starting on your list here. We each of us made some lists. Oh, right. Yeah. Start on your. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I'm really excited about the color. I must have been playing a little bit just as you go through it. But yeah, this Cobra Kai is actually, yeah, it is. I think exactly the list that chron was running on that battery report I mentioned with the other week. So. I don't think this is necessarily the best cover. Kyle list that you could write with the bar period guard. But I think it's a good template that we can discuss. Okay. So. Yeah. The. The core ability of the Zenfekai Cobra Kai is Cain's essence. It gives you a plus one bravery characteristic of Melosai units and Kenari Harpies. So now your snakes are on bravery nine. And then the Melosai iron scale has a artifact from the original dock book crown of woes. I believe I'm actually not looking at it here. So what it's called kind of woes. Just woe. Okay. Cool. Like woe. Right. So kind of woe. It has a way that you can get. It's either plus one bravery. I think a plus one bravery or a minus one bravery. I'm trying to find it here quickly. While I'm talking about it. So shadows. Love sigil iron circuits. Here it is right here. Kind of well. Subtract one from the bravery characteristic of enemy units within seven of the bear. The first time the bear slays enemy model, the range of disability is increased to 14 inches for the main of the battle. So that synergizes well with of course all of this is leaning up to synergizing well for mind raiser. Right. Yeah. So you start out in the base of bravery nine on your snakes. That's going to be over a lot of units in the game. Most units in the game. More. I don't know. There's a lot of chaos out there and death. But yeah. So mind raiser. If you are over the bravery of the unit that you're using. You not only get the additional ring, but you get a point of additional damage. So that's enormous. Yeah. On the melee snakes going from one damage to two damage on the bucket of dice that you're going to be rolling with these units of 10 snakes in particular. So I thought that was do you guys have any other in terms of other artifacts that you might put on the most side iron scale? I thought that was really interesting. Maybe a plus one save since you could put her in cover potentially. Yeah. I don't think is a is an interesting pickup. I mean the fun thing about Xanther Kai is that most time you're going to end up with three artifacts. Right. Right. Right. So like in your list, you couldn't actually take advantage of all of the artifacts you had. Right. Right. Because Xanther Kai, one of the things that that temple does is just give you a bonus artifact. Right. So of any kind. So if you're in if you've got it, the reason I say three is obviously you start with one, you're usually going to have a battalion, one of the two new good battalions plus the Xanther Kai item. And so that actually does interesting ups and possibilities to take something like the crown because previously your two artifacts you would take every time would be Shadowstone first and then the iron circle. Like those are two artifacts that the only two you talked about done at the end of story. Right. You had two artifacts in the list. These are the two you take. Everything else you might as well just put it in the bin. Right. Yep. Yep. But the I mean the the Shimon item that reduces red neg one to zero can actually be kind of interesting a kind of interesting on her just to keep her alive a little bit longer against various sundry rend one shooting, which there is a fair amount of around. I mean, there's not a huge amount of items that naturally fit on her to be completely honest, but you know. Yeah. Amulet of dark fire would allow you to ignore mortal wounds from spells on her on a four up maybe situational. I'd say I keep her alive a little bit longer, but I mean she's only rocking I think six wounds with a five base save. So yeah, I didn't was it really keen on the idea of leaning into trying to keep her alive, but more just looking for that one opportunity. Yeah, to set up a combo if I need to go into a unit and make sure I'm over the bravery of that unit to get the extra damage on that unit of 10 snakes with tapping the command ability for the 2d6 run, you know, et cetera to get that key charge off. I thought that could be interesting, but yeah, there's not exactly or I don't know of any incredible artifact that really stands out that you put on her. The command traits that you've got to take, not the nice things, least interesting part of the kind simple curse the bloody hand at the end of the combat phase, roll the dice for each enemy unit within three of the general on a five plus that unit suffers deep immortal wounds. And I'm realizing now that could I screw it? Let's see. Let me pull the list up. I hope I didn't screw that list up. The list should have a. No. Okay, cool. That has the curse of the bloody hand. All right, cool. Yeah. So yeah, shadow stone, real ones to cast and you get a bonus of plus one cast. So the withering is 18 inch range, plus one of wounds. I believe that is combat only. Check that. And so yeah. And the miner is of course on Marathakane, two by 10 blitz sisters by blitz sisters and then the 10 blood stalkers that you're going to be double tapping with the Marathakane command ability for those up to 40 shots, 24 inch range, 32 inch threat range with eight inch move. Amazing output. Yeah, I've been running those a ton and Caldron and then yeah, the by period guards, like Vince, you said you get essentially an extra CP command points. So you're right. You're basically. It's basically worth two command points, right? Because you're getting one for taking the battalion and then once a game, you can use a command ability without taking without spending a command point. So what is your. Yeah. Well, so. Yeah, with the obvious issue with this list is it doesn't have any screens. You're using snakes. Zero. Zero screens. Yeah. That's that's why. Yeah. That's why it's just a kind of a template for our discussion. Disagree. It had. I disagree, Tom Fully. It has in fact the best screen in the game, which is Marathi standing in the middle of your army in front of everything and then the Shadow Queen standing in front of your army and everything. Go and get some. He's like, what? Who cares? Come get some. You put them out front on the line and you have them basically block up and be like, you want to get in on this? Because guess what? I'll take your whole army. And you know what it's going to look like at the end of this for me? Three wounds. I don't give a good God. How many people you attack me with? I don't care what you're bringing. I don't care if you can if you can catapult 2000 points into me. Three wounds, homie. So I hope it's work fit. Like between her and the five sisters, which is clearly what you're going to do, you're going to build a little fence post, right? You're going to sit the two of them out there and then in the middle is going to be you know, five little snakes. That's the line. Yeah. Yeah. Ben, so when we get to Calibra, maybe we could, I could, I sent you some deployment images from TTS that maybe we could reference a couple of those because more or less it gets at what you're talking about right there, but with an actual unit of nine shadow stalkers for more proper screen. Yeah. But no, meaning that how the army often functions, at least in my experience on the table, is exactly that. Yeah. You put Marathi, two Marathis on the line. They've zoned out a little bit of, zoning out a little bit of space, not necessarily right by each other, but on the line, generally. And then your 24 inch shooting range, 32 inch threat range on your bows. So they can be quite a bit back and still have a really good threat range. And then with that 2D6 run and still charge, you can put the, you know, those 10s, even potentially the two by 10 snakes, fairly far back. So you could, you know, sometimes in my experience so far, at least personally, I think a lot of people may look at a snake army. They think it's an agro army that has to be in the opponent's space in like round one with, you know, your snakes, your blood sisters. That's not how I've been finding it plays often. It more it operates in waves. So of course, the shadow queen, one or both, certainly the shadow queen and maybe Marathakane are the early 10 threat pieces. Right. Especially the shadow queen. And then the bows are doing really good early work and calibrant. It's even easier because you can teleport them around. If you have a unit of shadow stalkers, they can teleport. So they're screening teleport, wherever you're teleporting your bows, you then teleport your shadow stalkers to screen them off. But I've been finding the blood sisters are more of like a second wave. Right. In that army. And then I'm keeping them far back. So you could definitely do that. Positioning, placement, charge, making sure you're outside of threat ranges, charge ranges. It's obviously really, really, really critical where the glass cannon army like this. But yeah, that the command ability helps, helps you with that from the middle side. Yeah. And it's interesting because you effectively got a four hammer build here. Right. In shadow queen and then the two tenors of sisters and the tenor of stalkers. Right. Yeah. You know, and the options like we'll talk about options with the list. Like you mentioned the lack of chaff Tom or whatever, you know, certainly like one of your other options could be you could reduce a hammer to up your chaff and utility. Right. Like you could get rid of ten of the blood sisters, the melee snakes. I already thought about it. Or like ten sisters or, or like ten sisters of slaughter, by the way is what I meant. I'm sorry. I apologize. I should be clear because those are also battle line. We have to fill that battle line requirement. And then drop a hag queen in as well or something like that. Right. Like there are, there are other choices you can make here. That is exactly, exactly what I was thinking about. Yeah. Sure. 100%. Right. I favor four hammers. I do think that like four hammers mean I, the reason I like four hammers in doc is because it means everything's a threat and your enemy often will be very hard pressed to answer for hammers. Most armies don't have four hammer answers. They just don't. Okay. Right. And what that means is that like you will just overwhelm them. Right. And like utility and chaff and stuff like that. It's good, but in the end it's a delaying factor. I'm not saying one is better than the other. I don't know which one's better than the other. Probably having the chaff and control in the hag queen is better. Maybe. But like, again, it's both, I think both are valid choices. Right. Especially when you've got this weird situation where one of your hammers, you are guaranteed to get at least two full round battle rounds of play out of it. Like minimum. You cannot get less. Right. Right. Yeah. This is also a two drop list. So you're going to be out dropping most folks. So yeah, that's really important for glass cannon armies. At least my, my opinion to have that, that flexibility again that, that helps you in you, how you're deploying and you know, you can be conservatively aggressively and know what you're going to do in terms of giving that turn away or taking it. I think a lot of times you want to be able to give it away and then just deploy to make sure you're, what's that? Three drop. Oh, is it a three job? Yeah. You're, you can't fit all four units of, of snakes into the, by your guard, by your guard caps at three snake units. Yeah. So that would be, yeah, you could fit three snake units. No, right. It is two drops. I forgot because the iron scale can't fit in there along with the Medusa. I apologize. You're right. I'm wrong. It is two drop. I'm sorry. I forgot that the iron scale and the blood wreck Medusa could both go into your guard. Yes. Yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, so you guys, so Tommy think that a head queen, so what, specifically, what would you change? What would you remove? What would you add? For me, just given my play style, I would probably drop a blood sister. I would pick up a, a, a, a 10 sisters of slaughter. So that gives you a real fast line with shields. So they'll bounce back the mortals when they get hit on sixes. And then I would probably do a hag queen, which then lets you utilize that last item. And it gives you a, and it gives you a prayer as well. Yeah. And it gives you the reroll wounds on a unit. Sure. And like, don't, we cannot underestimate the power of catechism of murder and snake army. Like catechism is bonkers when it goes off. Like, like catechism on, like if you have the, this may be exaggerating. I would need to do the math, but having like 10 sisters verse five sisters back by a, a, a hag queen. Yeah. I'd be interested to see the damage with the reroll wounds and the catechism of murder. Sure. I think, I think that you're talking similar numbers and you're picking up a chap unit. And like, what, what I hate about this list is I don't feel like there's any units that I look at here that I can just leave on an objective to me, all of them seem to need to be doing something, except maybe the five blood sisters. Right. Like, because Marathi Kane, you're going to want her, sure her position is going to be dependent upon where you want your blood stalkers because she needs to accompany them. And so that's not that the fighting may not always be where the objectives are. And so like, I just, I prefer to have a little bit of chaff that I can leave on objectives if I need to. Right. But that's just me. Sure. Now, in terms of what you were talking about there, you wouldn't have the points. So would you drop, I mean, so let's say you draw five blood, you meaning you would draw the ten rosters. Yeah. You drop a ten. You'd kill one of your hammers and go to a three hammer list and then that lets you buy a 10 pack of sisters, a slaughter and a hag queen. And then I don't, off the top of my head, I don't remember what the delta would be, but you know, you'd still have a 60 points. Yeah. Yeah. Two 80, 120. Yeah. You'd have 65. Right. So you could buy a command point as well or whatever. You're at three drops. You could buy a command point. You could buy an endless spell. There's some really good, like the Jeminids might be a really, they're 60, right? Yeah. 60. Yeah. So Jeminids might be a really interesting answer here. I don't know. Like I would, you could do prismatic palisade and do the wall. You could actually get the palisade and another 30. So you could do the palisade and like burning the burning skull. So you can have a, both a defensive and an offensive that would give reroll ones on your shooters. Sure. Especially for, yeah, I mean that the key being is that the burning head or whatever is going to be really valuable, especially in the earlier parts of the game, if you can just launch it out there. Right. So giving reroll ones is just like, on all of your shooting turns is going to be really potent if it sits around. And like, if you end up dinging a little bit here or there, who cares? You know, like you can have Barathe most of the time, just be near it fighting and not care. Right. Because they're sure going to take three wounds from whatever she's fighting. So who cares if something dings her for a couple of mortals? Yeah. Yeah. I'm a big fan of that endless spell for, for New Dock. Yeah. What is Hag Queen on Caldron again? 290. 290. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Too expensive is the answer by 10 points. She ain't going down there. Like somebody did that math and was like, no, no, no. So I, like I said, I haven't really gotten many games in with Cobra Kai. When I look at it, I don't find it as compelling, just sure from a preferred play style and honestly competitiveness. I can't really quite figure out how to make it as competitive in terms of snake heavy. Like that's what, that's personally what I'm interested in, just snake heavy. And regardless of whether that, it's not the strongest, obviously. I mean, Hagnar is still, in my opinion at least, you know, if you're running a snake heavy Caldron with Marathi and you're comparing that to, let's say old Hagnar, but updating it with 10 blood stalkers. I think that updated Hagnar 10 blood stalkers is still quite a bit more competitive and a number of variations thereof. But yeah, what do you guys thoughts in terms of, so how to make this compelling? So Mike, So again, I'm thinking hyper competitive here. And my concern is what does this army do when it squares off against Skaven? Or like a mixed Skaven where they have clouds of clan rats with strong shooting. Yeah. Or KO like a non, like a non monolithic KO. Like a lot of people have gotten really hung up on the, like the ironclad with 20 thunders in there. Because it's seen some success, but if you have a true like divided shooting KO list where you have like three centers of teleporting power that can all like condense fire or split up, like this becomes a lot more problematic because Marathi, like the Shadow Queen can't be everywhere. Yeah. Well, I mean, look, what like, okay, to answer your first question is you would go hard into them. You'd go into the paint against Skaven. Right. Like you would just take. You have to. Sure. And you'll blow them away. Like I don't, I think that's a terrible matchup for Skaven. And I'll tell you why. Because the stalkers, because one year now drop them, like that's guaranteed. Okay. Like Skaven are like a million billion drops. Okay. You're two. So, you know, like, okay, you're fighting Skaven. Let's say they have giant clouds of clan rats, like full on giant clouds of clan rats. Okay. Okay. You're, they're all immune to battle shock opi. We'll just give them blanket battle shock immunity. Because that's usually. Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. Okay. The stalkers, like what's the ranged output coming from is the question. Right. If it's something like Gisels. Who cares? Right. You kill them first. They're just dead. Those are just dead instantly from your stalkers. Right. If it's something like storm fees. Well, maybe. What? Yeah. I'm not sure. But that's what I'm saying. Because they can be backboarded by on a hole. And then teleport. Their range is not such, your effective threat range with your stalkers. Right. It's 32. 32. Right. Like, could they maybe in some circumstance? They put their shooting on a not hole and then they can teleport to any other not hole. Yeah. It's really easy to zone out. It's so easy. Yeah, it's really easy but it's so easy to zone out in all holes. It's so easy. Not not with this list Look at what this list. I've played a guy like dude. Who's played scaven morning. Do you think just just take a quick boat? Okay, okay Zoning out a knoll hole in enemy territory is as easy as walking one fig near it You set the shadow queen or somebody like that near the thing. They can't help or do it One fig can zone up you can zone out a knoll hole Because you have to be with set up wholly within six and nine away from an enemy That's pretty easy math to shut off Okay, I'm happy if you take your shadow queen and park it near one of my three knoll holes Yeah, sure That means I'm gonna take apart the rest you're all I'm gonna teleport to the other knoll hole and shoot off most of your stuff No, because the again, this is I I You should play scaven sometimes because believe me when I say knoll holes don't work like you think they work Okay the What here's what I'll say The any of these both of those units of blood sisters will blow a unit of Clarence off the table in one round like no issue That's that those C6 system. You'll cut through them like they're not like they'll do 40 wounds that the average Jammage out of this unit when it's hyped like assuming you use the command ability and assuming they're near Marathi Right, yeah, holy open 18 if Marathi's in combat basically Plus my attack from that and put my attack from the command ability I mean they'll like 40 wounds 40 damages against a five-up save is like that isn't even trying That unit ceases existing with probably without mind raiser But if they have mind raiser good God did that that unit blew up three times with my Okay, yeah, so like round first engagement all of their chap is dead Like that's it. You could blow up multiple 40 packs of clan rats in one turn And like there and again Take a staven shooting they have to that's what Clarence do they stand up front and wait Right, but they could stretch a single unit across you're only gonna hit one unit When you come in you think about layer layers, um, like Acolyte unit to sure sure sure maybe maybe not those kinds of shootings I believe this is a great. This is a ridiculous tangent We went on those kinds of shooting skaven don't have four counter shot hammers. They're gonna take out your stuff That's the problem. They don't do enough back in that you'll chew them before they chew you That's what's gonna happen. Okay, you're gonna lose stuff, but they'll lose stuff faster That would be my so anyway, so what this is like a this is a way down deep rabbit hole Yeah The point is is that yes There's a couple different ways to do this and by the way That's why I favor the four hammers because the list you talked about Tom with like the hag queen and sisters would be weaker against a List like that. Yeah, yeah So yes, I agree of course they'll layer but again still I hope they have enough room to really really layer and sometimes It's hard because those snakes are all gonna charge and then pile in three inches and have a decent reach Like they can hit five inches behind the line So if the first unit blows it up and then the second unit piles in three and then reaches two more they can still like yeah That's you better have a heck of a gap Right, that's true. Yeah, that's true. That's good point. Yeah Now I know that you you got a game in what we're talking about Cobra Kai. So yeah, I've got two games over guy so far Yeah, you had a you had an interesting list. I can't remember. What was your list? You had a culture Did I did I legitimately don't remember now, but I can show you something close in Calibron I've played it both under there, but yes I like a slaughter queen on cauldron the key is I don't use the stalkers which buys me a lot of points I'm not using any. I'm not using any bow snakes, right? I didn't use the iron scale I don't use the bow snakes. So there you go because I have any bow snakes built so but I have tons of melee snakes All right. Gotcha In summary I yeah personally I find Cobra Kai more difficult to figure out how to play Competitively in terms of if you're pushing for let's say for one, which which is my bias. That's what I'm looking for Yeah, like it's got a lot of bad matchups. It's very glass candy, of course Not a lot of bodies. Yeah, I can hit hard But it's gonna get blown up by most anything in the game pretty quickly apart from Rathakane and Shadow Queen But yeah fun interesting. I think with good positioning You know very careful play thoughtful play you can do you can do some work But yeah, it's it's gonna I'm not sure how you get around the fact that this kind of list even with a couple modifications It's still gonna have a lot of bad matchups. Yeah, sure So let me take you through a calibron list that I haven't and I think Tom you sent me a calibron list as well, right? No, no, I did to Hagnar. Okay. Oh, I said you sent me a calibron list as well. Okay. Yeah, sorry I'll be all headless. I'm just trying to remember who's a student. So that's fine Here's my let me bring this up make it big enough. There we go. Hopefully you guys will see that in a minute But I'll walk everybody through. So here's my take on calibron. Okay, so again by pure guard. I stand behind by pure guard I like calibron is the build with this. I think it's it's hot I'm I've always been repping calibron day one the only dog I've played daughters in tournaments and the only thing I've ever played with my daughters in tournaments is calibron Okay, so much fun Ironically, I've ranked higher in playing calibron You did with Hagnar. Yeah, well that says I took I took second at the one gay with Caliburn. Sure All right, so here's the basic list blood rack Medusa Marathi Kane and the shadow queen of the slaughter queen on cauldron. I love the slaughter queen on cauldron I stand behind her. I think she's just a just a bad ass. She's Unstar like she is so mean When we use the real way up. Oh god, does she go brutal? Well, she won't like people like what I loved about her was that like people just saw her as a buffing piece Yeah, yeah, and then she slams into a 30 to 40 damage and you're like what? Yeah, right. You realize you're like, oh, that's hammer number two got it. Yes I didn't look at the book closely when it came out that closely and then yeah I've been picking them up and running into like holy cow. Yeah, what's that? So so here I've got yeah, so Marathi the slaughter queen on cauldron She's absolutely one of my hammers along with the shadow queen, right? And then ten sisters ten sisters and all sisters apparently from my from my battle line But ten blood sisters ten blood sisters and ten sisters to slaughter right and obviously the blood rack Medusa the general I didn't bother to include the command trait, but it's the you know, whatever. It's the Caliburn thing I just didn't select it on the worst role-builder because I'm lazy Because it's a set command trait. So I wasn't saying anything at any rate um Again, I like this because you have the You I have everything I need right? I've got the two key artifacts that we talked about Chateau stone encircle it I've got catechins of a murder which I put on the actually the the slaughter queen because she's gonna be up You know like wheeling and dealing closer like she's the behind the main push line or whatever, right? She wants to be up there with the kind of sisters on each side of her effectively They smooth on this larger twin of culture six she's not fast. I was thinking it's really yeah, okay Yeah, she's not fast, but that's okay Like she's gonna run in the you know first turns or whatever. So sure yeah with the re-roll with with re-roll ones That's right Uh, and I give the had queen crimson rejuvenation I think this is a less popular secondary prayer But I actually very much stand behind this prayer like it's a it's the heel by the way for those who aren't familiar So it's just like a d3 heel Um To me the value of it is I use that water queen up correct Yeah, or also like if the blood rack Medusa gets splash wounded I don't want something to accidentally pick her off So that queen can turn around because like generally it'll be slaughter queen had queen blood rack It's kind of like sort of they're kind of all in this like line in between the snakes on both sides it's this kind of cloud moving forward, right while Marathi's off on her own doing her nonsense and And The like just having the hand queen of crimson rejuvened so I can you know pray and heal the necessary things especially since they can They can hurt themselves when they pray right we can't forget about that like you can hurt yourself when you pray Yep, so Yeah, at any rate I like this it does give you the chaff line of a single group of you know Tenses a slaughter with the bucklers as Tom mentioned which yes is always like I like sisters with the bucklers for for chaff You know stand behind it. They're good and by the way in a pinch. You can actually turn all your buffs on them and have them go like Do some decent damage? They're not like a super hammer, but if you've got nothing else going on There's like an easy unit you can you know you're gonna be able to pile six on Why not drop the buffs on them pile in and just watch them blow something up like they'll do decent damage Right, they still have 20 attacks Right. Yeah on the reason fours like Yeah, yeah So Okay Let's see the And yeah, that's the list it's in Calibron I did put steed of shadows on Marathi Kane because I really like all the movement potential So Marathi Kane can be like zipping around pinning people really fast Like I'm not afraid to run her out to race her ahead of the army on steed and just in a unit in place Right, right because again, who cares she's not gonna die and then And then obviously you've got Calibron to just move stuff around where you need it now I have no shooters with Calibron But so it's always you're rolling a hard nine if you're trying to drop for a charge That's not actually how I end up using Calibron most of the time like sure Sometimes you'll take that play just to threaten and make them pull their army apart like it's not a bad play But more often than not it's just to get perfect positioning Right, right It's still a four hammer. Yeah, it's still a four hammer army like Shadow Queen slaughter Queen sisters sisters Yep I really like it. Yeah, it looks fun It's the downside is of course 92 wounds Yeah, that's how we roll Almost every dog list I've ever built is like in that range This is the armies I play there things with like 80 to 100 wounds these better make it at work So, you know, this is the kind of version I prefer so but yeah, there you go And coach said I worried this list is too hero heavy and so few units it is it is hero heavy But again, I think my experience isn't a four hammer army You can afford to be hero heavy because they won't have units alive to sit on points Because you will murder them Like because any everything you have is death if it touches them right So it's like you and ostensibly you're wanting to again I always think of this in a wave pattern Just as you mentioned like I'm gonna take the sisters out front They're gonna absorb something I'm gonna super buff and and wham through one or two units with the first blood sisters the second blood sisters the Shadow Queen I'm gonna hopefully wave over them and then the little heroes are in back Hopefully cleaning points as my as my ocean watches forward, but yeah, it's up. I mean you're on a razor's edge like if somebody has a Lot of like big splash damage like things I would not want to fight with this would be like, you know Garbage croak seraphon like that's a nightmare. It's just you know, well, I guess I lose them, you know I'm gonna pull up mine real quick. Yeah, let's talk about your account run list. Absolutely. Let me bring that up Okay, I hate that I have to make this thing hide every time, but we will make this big Sorry, there we go. I'm gonna have to give you a list run. That looks really fun Yeah, it's pretty pretty awesome running the four hammers have been that a little bit Yeah, you really got to think about the way you move and position stuff because it is so unit light, you know You can't Every doc army I've ever played is a knife's edge army. I only play knife's edge doc where it's like, okay If you make one wrong move you lose Like that's how I like to play doc where you're just this precision scalpel that has to like you nick an artery It's all over right like you Just waves upon waves. Yeah, I could just lose Marathi at the top of one or bottom of one and not even notice, right? Is so real quick as we get to your list, which is up on the screen now, but real quick Zanae says is Marathi worth playing over 600 points of witches or something similar? I still don't see it. My argument would be yes a thousand percent the utility that she brings to the table is completely unique her ability to not die is So strong like she has an ability that no other model in the game can replicate In certain scenarios she can almost auto win you the game like on say places of arcane power But also on things like focal or not focal point will focal points is like for behemoths But you know things that matter for heroes staying alive Score you know, we have leaders, you know what I'm saying about arcane power the place of arcane power So I mean like it's not just that though It's also like the utility she brings to it that is so strong her spellcasting is very welcome She's a great person to be mind-raisering or you know, whatever she Her long-term her long-range damage spell is really good like the shadowy blob of oogoo or whatever Can can pop damage like 36 inches. Yeah, she's almost everything all at once She's a hammer an anvil utility all in one package Yeah, she does everything you need For 600 points. Yeah, and she unsticks problems right between like making things fight twice Or yeah, you know what I mean by twice not yeah, yes her brand of fight twice All right Okay Yeah, okay come back to that later Yeah, maybe come back later if I remember and just give an example of a list From my friend Jesse, which I thought was a really interesting list of showing what you can do without morathe in terms of yeah Yeah, I think all of our lists we didn't talk about this But I think all of our lists feature morathe because she has a strong tool But I mean you can do doc without her. Yeah, but at any rate Yep, absolutely. Yeah. So a lot of similarities here. Yeah, so color brawn Um, rath can yep see up shadows for the tricks that you talked about shadow queen, uh, blood rack medusa Yeah, shadow stone mind raiser and then 10 blood sisters 2 by 5 blood sisters 10 blood stalkers 5 blood stalkers 9 shadow stalkers for the screen or teleport Late game if I don't necessarily need a screen for some reason in the game and then the tip less battalion Which didn't really see a whole lot because the snakebos were not very good at the time I've seen a little bit more now. So what that battalion does? I'm gonna say it allows you to get your drops really low. So this is a four drop list Yeah, because in color brawn you get additional snakes units that you can put into the the simple nest So every time your opponent is attacking the blood sisters blood stalkers or the medusa In combat and they roll a one to hit they will take a mortal wound at the end of their attacks Which has been nice. I mean it's not amazing, but it's been nice It's it's damage it will surprise people because it'll be there's a lot of re-rolling ones in the game It will make people one of the things that's interesting It'll happen is people will start using their command points in different ways Like they'll they'll save their command points for all assault to re-roll ones to hit or whatever, you know So see you know what I like Free damage. Yeah, sure. Absolutely. Yeah Yeah Yeah, going out. Yeah, I've had a game where yeah, someone's rolling a bucket of dice with a big unit at me and yeah, they roll a lot of ones So, yeah, sure. Sounds good. And then yeah, the special sauce the aether boy pendulum, which I'm in love with now never really found a useful List that I wrote in the four or five years of a was or however many years the The malign sorcery has been around, but it is perfect for marathakane Either teleporting with caliber on or see the shadows So like, you know teleport round one You give your opponent top of one you go bottom of one Teleport rathakane nine inches away from your opponent. The pendulum goes up to 14 inches essentially So you could hit multiple units with these six mortal winds It's units that you fly over or that you're within an inch of when it lands So, yeah, I've done a lot of really good damage with that on on top of the black whore And then let's say you win priority for round two cool The pendulum is not going to hurt you because of course it only goes one direction And then you potentially dispel it with a plus one to dispel Recast and again Marathakane is up there in front of you Yeah, so like it can put out some really nice damage if you can get the damn thing off Now, certainly this list can fall apart if you're going to get a true spell bomb Like croak or or techless one because you can't get anything off but yeah so Yeah, this I will also say it's a really nice compliment to Uh To your stalkers right who are also pitching in mortal wounds Like it's a good way if you can plow that pendulum through some heroes You know, you might not kill them that like oftentimes the d6 isn't going to work out to give you sort of a five or a six, right? But it then means that you can take like your five blood stalkers if they're on one way left and be like, okay Well, you're dead now Yeah Right. Yeah, definitely Vince do you have those photos I sent you to the deployment examples? Yeah, uh, it might be a way to talk through this list quickly. Yeah, let's uh, Let's like some of your pictures are a little crazy tyler and we'll make people's heads All right, okay, so I'm gonna not gonna use every one of them But I thought this one would be interesting So I just brought up calabron deployment one Which is the one where you're facing. Uh, I think kairos is it's you're facing a legion of chaos ascendant army On the other side of the table in a fairly standard Ask deployment situation, right? Like a 24 inch apart 12 off the middle line Length ways kind of set up. It'll it'll show on your screen here in just a moment. Uh, and so, yeah Yeah, so I think in this one it has pulled okay. There it is. All right, awesome. Yeah So I thought this might be useful this in terms of uh us discussing a few things with deployment And yeah, so in this one, uh, yeah go legion of chaos ascendant, uh, a list that has a bunch of tricks You know like teleporting with the skitter leap a vermin alert corruptor with 10 attacks That is doing d3 mortal wounds for every five up in combat and casting a spell After it's teleported that blows up your unit doing A mortal wound for every four up at rolls and then kairos with spell portal that's checking six mortal wounds, you know Like it's a good list. Yeah, it's a pretty pretty solid lesion cast is in the list. Yeah, so I think it had some kadi Yeah, they're like, uh, they're a kadi in this list too. So just full on full on nonsense Yeah, absolutely. Uh, so yeah, I've often been deploying the Some games you don't need to do this But often sometimes out of laziness the bloodstalkers the unit of 10 bloodstalkers that are usually going to be The ones taking that cp for a marathokane's commandability in the hero phase for the double tap Up to 40 shots essentially as long as they're full up 20 in the hero phase 20 in the shooting phase Disdeploying them on the back in the back of the board and then they're my teleport unit Right, and just wherever. Yeah, I'm usually trying to give my opponent first turn Uh, because I'm a four drop or three drop if I'm not taking the shadow stalkers for the screen And then wherever they go often the shadow stalkers have been going as a teleport screen in front of them So I've at least got one layer and then sometimes I'll look to try to use one of the five Snakes, you know the five snakes as a second layer because you can get you know One screen here and see 40 40 millimeter bases. You can get a decent wrap with your 10 bloodstalkers, especially the 10 bloodstalkers and like a three by three layout 24 inch range teleport, you know, you can you can do that pretty well, but yeah, so Then marathi both marathi is usually almost always on the line as you mentioned events Sometimes marathokane may have to be a little off the line in terms of zoning out space because you've done a lot of units Um, but yeah, and then almost always like the 10 unit of 10 blood sisters I've been like we talked about earlier using them as a second wave So they're usually staying. Yeah, like somewhere in the middle of the board Uh staying away from edges staying away from backboard Just uh, you there are the the the safety, you know that That later on utility piece to go where needed eight inch move rear wants to charge by round two Um good ability in terms of threat range that can also be teleported Um, almost always keeping the blood rock like my blood rock madusa has only died once and all of like a dozen games that I played Yeah, it's another benefit to high hammer lists is that like people need to be focusing on your threat And they don't have time to like to jackjaw around with your blood rack madusa, right? Like sure would they love to kill her? Absolutely, but unfortunately these 10 snakes seem to be murdering me right now. I really gotta focus on this problem It's like having a hangnail On one hand and like you're like having your other hand chopped off. Well, I better focus on this problem first Yeah, absolutely. Yeah And uh, yeah, and then with caldron against shooting. I mean other than like luminev pumping 60 whatever shots looking for fives Mortal wounds other than that don't need a lot of sight other than that kind of silliness Yeah, in general you're looking at a minus two to hits caldron minus one look out serve minus one helps keep her up And I haven't now I've been I haven't played any real heavy shooting lists Which even with caldron could be a problem with this Yeah, hunter wounds glass cannon of inch and sea like tom. I think the kind of three teleport Uh centers of power threats KO lists that you're talking about would be difficult As opposed to the yeah, the 20 thunders in a boat where I'd be looking, you know, that's in one spot You can potentially count whatever, you know, it's going to blow up part of your army, but then you charge with your army I think that's the weaker KO list as it aside Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah Um, but yeah, no, it's it's it's been amazingly Good, like I've been this first time really running a glass cannon of this nature and just a little Impressed like just just how you know, it's going up against strong list Yeah, I want to tell a quick side story here folks, which is this The side story is this a couple years back When I was often times after a tournament that I attend with Tyler I'll call Tyler and we'll chat on as I'm driving my like, you know, nine hour drive home or whatever However, I have to drive for the tournament Tyler and I'll chat for a couple hours just about our experience in the tournament couple hours like freaking five hours Yeah, sure. Sure. Absolutely. This is great. It's a good time. It's a long drive. Absolutely. And so You know a couple years back Tyler had been running stormcast for a while and you'd run Sylvaneth for a long long time, right? That was kind of your main thing And I said and you you know, you were kind of like exhausted and a little frustrated And you know with your Sylvaneth or whatever and I said, you know what the problem is Tyler you're playing these these armies that Uh That require like way too much intense thinking and positioning and and this kind of crap You need to get like an iron jaws style army It's all about hammers and just getting into people and doing some Just coming in Miley Cyrus style like a wrecking ball, right? And I'm glad to see you finally Have come that direction and it's it's snakes not iron jaws, but it's a similar principle Yeah, yeah, I called you we talked a few days ago and I'm like, I Yeah, I should listen to you and then you told me the parable of Cassandra Cassandra But yeah, I would say I It feel this this list to me feels like the very definition of a three two pushing four four one with good play Decent matchups not getting a string of shooting power counters, blah, blah, blah But even then you got the minus one with caliber on help keep you up a little bit Um, yeah, it's got incredible damage output. You've got to be very careful with positioning Yes, like you mentioned earlier if you're if if you have those 10 blood sisters in a spot that they get caught out They're gonna get blown up or like I found this out against Archeon. I played I had some poor positioning against Archeon What was the paying attention and he was My second layer of units was inside three inches of him He double activated with chaos lord and bye bye like 22 units of 10 snakes. Yeah, sure Little things like that. Yeah All right, so let me answer a couple questions here. Somebody said are those storm fiends up top? No, those are kadai destroyers. It's a Legion of asgore unit That is like a demon so it can go into the the legion of chaos ascend since it can be any demons Uh, and then somebody said what program is this it's tabletop simulator Yes, so it's a thing you can download you can get it off steam or whatever It's all the assets are already there in the game. There's Uh, lots of cool stuff you can do for like obviously you didn't have to make all these These are all just assets that around there's different maps that people have made the various scenarios and stuff like that So it's it's really nice. Uh, and if you want to see it in action, um Tuesdays and wednesdays Uh, and I think fridays. I think that's right Uh, rob honest wargame or rob has been doing breakfast battles where he's actually streaming a tts Aos game. So, um, yeah, there you go Um And I agree with ross who said that something to be said for keeping your decisions simple less complex still nuanced and important But less to miss get wrong than I really like beast claw for that. Yeah, I agree. Yep. Yeah, yeah beast claw is another good example Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that's what I was just getting frustrated with luminous It's like luminous is an extraordinary book, but it felt too much like And yeah, there's a lot of some armies have a high mental tax Like we don't talk about it often as a concept in the game, but it's something I definitely feel like I favor armies that have a lower mental tax Right, uh, I don't want to be remembering literally a million things Especially chain things like activate a thing here And then a thing later at the end of that phase or in a separate phase happens the more of that starts stacking up Right and then or target a thing here and then if somebody's within this exact range you've got like whenever you're managing multiple holy within bubbles and Focusing on like there can just be there's some armies that just really have a lot of that going on and it's it's tough. Um, anyway Okay, tom we haven't looked at one of your lists yet So let's do it. Can you hear me fine? Yeah, I can say you're fine. Your headset died, huh? Yeah, uh, yeah, that's fine. I know if you charge it, it'll be full in like five minutes Because you've told me million times you have my headset's awesome. Okay All right, I was hoping it would actually be charged by the time uh, they got to me, but it's fine That's all right. Here we go. All right. Let's bring up tom's hagnar list Uh, yes, that's right. See, uh, here's here's the trick folks. Let me explain something to you I want I want to really explain something just for a moment. Why why we're better people on some correct That's exactly what we're going to talk about. Yes You see tyler and I use this wonderful amazing free program Uh, the tony p runs obviously fantastic incredible warhammer hero a hero of the community Uh, and called war scroll builder, which is just free for everybody on the gw website It's one of my favorite tools that they have. It's amazing. Please never take it away I love it. It makes making my playing my game so fun and easy and stress-free to make armies Thank you, tony. Thank you gw for having it And then there's tom who just has this whatever's going on here Whatever this situation is he's just like I've said why don't use war scroll builder He's like I don't want to learn it. I'm like learn it. What are you talking about? No, it's No, it has nothing to do with learning it. It has to do everything with how I do my permutations of lists And so like I have like a notepad on my phone and on my computer for armies And I just have like iterations like tens of iterations where I copy paste previous lists Delete units add units play with points and I just can't do that on war scroll builder in the same way Yeah So tom's wrong, but anyways, go ahead tom. Take it Take your list So anyways, so here we go. Um, so I went high gnar and actually I'm the only one without a battalion here um So I went the other direction Yeah, okay Because I went with I'll just I'll go a hundred, you know, I'll go What I what I went with 10 drops four five six seven eight nine drops No, tom for us Because I just Okay, he's back. Yeah. All right. Sorry. Uh, so I'm running a four hammer list as well Um with chaff and shooting sure Um, because what I'm running is I have the slaughter queen on cauldron is my general with iron circuit. We've seen that. Uh, she'll have, uh, um I'm blanking. Uh catechism of murder. She'll have catechism. Sure. Of course. Yeah, I didn't have that out there She'll have catechism. Uh, I have the backup Uh Slotter slaughter queen and cauldron would be the general. Wouldn't she have blessing of kane? Yeah Uh, you're right. Sorry. She has blessing of kane the hag queen has um Catechism correct. Yeah, you know, what's super neat if you if you built this in Shut up keep moving. Okay Um, and then uh, murathi kane and shadow queen I didn't split their points because it's 600 It's for for one year Mine razor on murathi because she is my only wizard in this list. So that's one of the differences Um, the reason why I went with only one wizard is because I felt like when the spelled on world that we're in it's It's it is simply too high of a risk To have too many other wizards. Okay So I only ran her with mine razor. Mine razor is the icing. It's not the essential. Um Uh, and then I have my good old trusty 30 witches with shields Because they are just a monster of offense and defense um Two sisters of slaughter with shield. So I have two screens there I have 10 blood sockers that are going to hang out with murathi kane Um, and she is going to make them shoot twice And so there are a hammer that can actually put their damage wherever it needs to be on the on the table And then a nine shadow sockers for teleporting and then because I can be out dropped I have a command point that I can either use for battle shock immunity on those 30 witches in the event that they get Like somebody goes full on into them and alpha's me Or I can save it and burn it on any of the other things double shooting or or any of those. Yeah It's a beautiful list like like this guy I wrote a couple of similar lists as we talked to him and I think we went through a couple of iterations one is the Question of had queen on cauldron or slaughter queen, which you know some of the trade-offs You're losing out of the second sippy cup. You're losing out on a little offensive power with the slaughter queen Uh, you're gaining a few more points to where you could upgrade to morgue with To flop off some wounds, you know a little bit of extra durability on the high queen on foot against chip damage So yeah, what are your thoughts on but in turn? I think it just shows Like just aesthetically and variety wise how you can build This is probably a four one pushing five o list Yeah, I I think so because I mean what this list has that I haven't seen in the other lists is answers to everything Yeah um Because this this list has I mean it's a four hero list, right? Um, that's also a four hammer list that has two screens and a teleporting threatening objective unit. Sure. It also has range damage Um, and so like this is my version of like, yes, you can have it all still Yeah, um, in fact, you can actually have real shooting now with daughters of pain, right? You thought daughters were were terrible before guess what? um You can have a 30 block backed by a slaughter queen on cauldron and then blood soccer shooting over top. Yeah You know, um mobility is the big issue with this list Um, the hilarity of this is that I mean it's not really an issue because everybody runs in charges um, but Like this is like In all honesty when I was looking at the meta and like thinking towards nash con at the end You know middle of this year. Hopefully if it happens like I really had to come to terms with like do I Just run like do I run my ko which I haven't actually gotten to take to nash con at all Or do I just paint up? Literally, do I just paint up nine shadow stalkers 10? To a shadow. Yeah nine shadow stalkers 10 bloodsockers and call it a day, right? Yeah Um, because like this again this list does all of it. Um, the only thing I would actually like more of Is I would have loved to fit in a second or to to bump the shadow stalkers to 18 Um So that I had a teleporting hammer Yeah, I agree 18 it's crazy how actually effective 18 shadow stalkers can be It it doesn't it you know you look at it and by the way I don't think often the right answer is to teleport them in to try to try to lay the combat The key is you're teleporting them out when you don't want them when they've got into something You don't want them into and you need them somewhere else. Yeah Or you need to call them back to get buffs to then send them in again around after that, right? Send them in somewhere else. Yeah. Yeah So and the only way that I like the way that I would do that if I wanted to is I would drop the 30 witches down to 20 Because the reality is is that sometimes 30 witches is just too many Yeah, I'll tell you why I don't like that plan in this list. Okay. Like I get what you're saying But I'll tell you why I think 30 you have that Because to me the challenge with this kind of a hagnar build is that you've got to have your you got to have long tails Yeah, yeah, because you need to keep people in the seven inch range of the of the cauldron the cauldron, right? Which means usually you're running some kind of ridiculous tail Right. Now this will be the thing that changes obviously this tail nonsense if if they ever get a new book Or it'll be holy within 14 probably right exactly. Yep. Yeah, so I mean and that will play very differently because oftentimes you'll see people have like basically 16 mind razor witches fighting Which is more than enough to handle the unit and then 14 witches just going All the way stretching all the way back because it's still a 1.0 book Yeah, because you'll often need to have like Two or three witches tailing into the the the zone You don't want to you don't want to risk it for the biscuit where one is just like towing into the seven inch In case your casualties are slightly higher than you expected and you've got to pull from the back of the line Right, yeah Like it's a pretty predictable damage amount because so much of your damage mitigation is un Is is unchangeable, you know, like you're oftentimes just on like five up five up five up Is oftentimes what you end up rolling in this army or something Yeah and so Uh, and even if it's by rend it's still at minimum five up five up, right? So yeah, my preferred approach is actually like I hear that vents is actually run. This is a three hammer list Yeah And what do you mean by that is you you shove the witches and the cauldron down somebody's throat No, I understand. I mean I think that the interesting part about hagnar is like I do agree that this is probably the most competitive list we've seen, okay Yeah um, and and honestly, it's because it doesn't rely on the 10 Blood sisters which still have a wound to point You know challenge, right? Like it still doesn't have the the It just it's not they're about the same cost as 30 witches and you're just not getting the same mileage out of that Right. I mean, I think the key with it is that they may have the same offense. Maybe Uh, probably all else equal. They're they're pretty close. Yeah, but the trick is they're also they're 10 bodies and 10 less wounds and Want to work safe. Well, I mean not technically basically the same save Well, no, well, no because they're The the snakes are five up all the time. You're five up. Yeah, yeah You're both going to take the the cauldron the same, right? Yeah. Yep. Yep. Yep Um, that's why I said basically the same save so like the trick is you're still getting You know 20 more bodies and 10 more wounds out of the 30 witches, right? Which just in general often means you have and backwards back of mortals on sixes. Sure. Sure. Sure now You know the the I think people underestimate the snake mortal wound touch the crystal touch I think people look at that and don't care about as much because it happens at the end of combat I have found that to be so unbelievably valuable because I'll often just like I'll charge and I'll wrap heroes And then attack a unit because again, you've got a big two inch reach on your stabby stick right so you can actually reach over the top of your girls and Then I'll just like I'll I'll I'll stab and blow up the unit and then I'll have enough snakes Because the snakes don't get to touch to just blow up the hero, right? Yeah, and like who cares the hero swings on me first I'm like, oh no, don't make your four Three and three neg one rend one damage attacks. Whatever will I do? And then you know, they're just going to be like, okay Maybe I lost a snake and then they turn and go and just melt him into into stone. Yeah Yeah But no, I agree. This is the most competitive because it has the most versatility of what we've seen but But that being said, it's also hagnar, which means I mean, but you have anything like hagnar is the like it's the go-to temple Like it's the hammers of sigmar or whatever. Yeah So like it's like it's gonna like those things will often edge out the other stuff Just because they're like incentivize that direction with all the heroes Obviously k.o is an exception to this because the k.o. No one has ever run competitively the k.o thing ever But you know, like most times the named temple is you know, like the main one is it's where marathi became a god Yeah, I get it. I know I just love that. Yeah, that now there's more Again, aesthetic variety and place of variety. You've got some teleporting and you got some shooting to go along with your combat I'm pretty good durability. Not not some shooting Yeah There's a hammer That's doing real damage at a 24 inch range. Yeah 30 That's good Like I just I love this list Um, do you think it's a big drop off going? High queen on cauldron versus slaughter and then again, basically you're getting 40 extra points to put wherever you want You know like morgue way versus high queen or 40 points and in the spells or it is a significant damage drop Yeah Like and and the question is is do you want this to be a? A hammer or not I'm just thinking in terms of you're lying even when we got one sip of cup and it's on a five one, dude A five one, uh, five one lady It's true. It's true. And you know what if you're dumping attacks into that hag queen? I'm not like I'm not even mad Because she's going to be buried in the line not even mad Nagorn to hit like she's nagorn hit buried in the line Nagorn to hit from shooting and um And uh on a on a five upset I mean keep in mind that the slaughter queen is also bringing that You know additional command ability to bear right slaughter queen on cauldron still has the command ability and Like because of her positioning It means that you you often aren't doing these like weird measurements Where you're trying to make sure if you need to nail a long bomb charge that you pull marathi kane out of position Because she's back You know sort of with the bow snakes or casting and so like if you're 30 witches or something or whoever needs to be way over here Fine, who cares the slaughter queen is going to be with them and she can effectively do the same job for melee Right, right? She can't make the bow snakes double tap if she can make the melee people double tap And heaven forbid that like shadow queen is in the bubble of both of them sure because uh Like Yeah, the triple pylon on that girl Sure. I mean obviously. Yeah Honestly the challenge you've got is command points Yes, yes. Yeah, like that's like where this list is going to be straining is under command points Like yeah, you've got one to start and that's cool beans But like you want to spend a lot of command points with this You do like it is And you don't have the bonus from a battalion and you don't have like extra extra from You know the vipiric guard that we had the other lists like I was starving in vipiric guard Both times I played xanthar kai cobra kai I went I went with that and I bought an extra command point, okay So like I had all the possible command points I could get and I felt like uh, I felt like somebody crawling across a desert Thirsty for water I was so thirsty for command points because because ultimately I submit to you that By the way, this is why I love like invaders than ash when I can have like 10 command points. Yeah, um Command points make you win the game Okay, I I will hear and here's why I say that I don't just mean I do not mean because they activate powerful abilities printed on war skulls Okay, I mean different options I mean yes, because ultimately what command points do is smooth out the randomness of the game More of them you have to use on every situation you need Never fail a charge never run less than you need to Always reroll ones to hit and always be using the powerful things if you're doing all of that stuff every turn Like if you're an army that can run on that kind of a An engine, you know where you're like you can drop that many command points in a turn, you know um Then you'll just you'll tend to win Because you've smoothed out the randomness Right, yeah How many games have you lost because you didn't quite get a far enough run to get into position to where you needed to be You dropped a critical charge Right or your role went bad I mean, so what i'll say is this fence Alternatively when i've run a very similar list of this I normally spend one to two command points all game Because this list doesn't you know like these lists don't need it for battle shock They most of the time are not in combat in the hero phase I'm just saying i'm not sure that would be the same now I I agree because you know what i'm going to want to do every turn double tap twice in the hero phase Yeah, sure absolutely like you're like and so what that's going to mean is that every command point that I get from turn One on is going to be spent shooting sure um, and so I agree like it i'm i'm going to want to Spend them and like occasionally i'm going to need that uh auto charge set or auto run sex sure Yeah, I mean exactly when I Example I played the smash bat list this last weekend, which was very fun. Yeah, okay. Yeah, which is super Oh my god, it's so crazy. It's so crazy. I blew six command points in one round Okay, now I have you need to double pile in you need them to everybody needed run in charge Everybody's double piling in right just it's just like money money money money. I'm just throwing cash out, right? Just throwing out that cash But you know what the benefit of that was I basically obliterated his army in one round Like super smash bat went in and did his did his super smash bat thing And uh, then there was no more tempest eye army when I was done. He had two units left. So Uh, like or damn Indeed, uh, but it was a great game. It was really fun Like I I was a bit worried when you opened up a smash bat came through because super smash bat is super smash bat at any rate Um, if only there was some good replacement vargulf Hey, if you've got an idea for a replacement vargulf model that I haven't found yet. Yes, I've checked etsy. Yes, I've checked all the shops Uh, if you have an an idea for a different Ben johnson had a wonderful conversion. Did you see his what was his? He he did a um a mega boss using vargulf on wings Me it's interesting because it is on the right size base I it's funny you say that because I was using my mega bosses as my smash bats because we were both just proxying armies To test out because he showed up with a proxy army and I was like, well, if you're in a proxied army How about I proxied army and then we just nobody knows what the heck we're looking at Yep Yeah, so Yeah, so, uh, I think ben I think in that thread on vargulfs Um on twitter he posted his and it's a it's a great looking like with the wing. I hadn't seen it yet I'll go check it out. Yeah, because he's about the right size But with the wings, I think this is not what we're talking about But the issue with the vargulf sculpt is he's in this weird size space in between big monster and not a normal size Thing like he's bigger than an over But smaller than like, you know any of the centerpiece models and there's just not that many alternatives out there Okay, neither would neither here or there All right, so back to doc. Let's let's round this out boys because we can bring this to a to a close here Is there anything else I I do agree. I think this is powerful My point is, you know, we didn't make a drakey guineath list But I honestly think you could make a pretty tight drakey guineath list as well Um, I think the plus one to hit on the charge with snakes is Really good Yeah, yeah, I agree with that. It's it's Putting your snakes on like twos often re-rolling ones depending on where you are in the game or the prayers you have Is insane So I think that's a good like mixed list Uh, if you go drakey guineath like you still probably want, uh, big that's where I pull out a big block of sister's slaughter or something like that probably Well, that's what I was trying to go for with mine is I wanted to I wanted to show a mixed list Right like that that you can like snakes now have a place Especially shooting snakes in a standard way Yeah, right. Absolutely. Yeah One unit, I think Tommy, especially our fan, had a way of talking about his life takers. So you know like a unit at 10 Yeah, uh, I just I just said the keyword the key the keyword Yeah, like and two on tts. I believe well, my own excellent player. Maybe Finland. I can for where it's from Northern European country. I believe he's been running um, rathy slaughter or had queen on cauldron had queen on foot And then like two by 30 witches 10 sisters or vice versa and then yeah 10 life takers five life takers And yeah, I've been really really nice list Yeah, kind of using them again as like safety piece Beta threat counter threat second wave buff them up really really really nice piece They're just a wonderful counter charge unit. Yeah Like they're just such a really interesting unit They're their float ability is incredibly good okay They take buffs really well Yes, they do 100 and we should state that if you are wanting to run Cobra Kai Remember all the things that we've talked about buffing snakes Also buffs the the harpies. So like the life takers are also getting plus one to bravery and thinking we're getting plus one attack And like all that stuff is also harpies from Cobra Kai, right? So um, you know, it's funny because Before I don't think any of us would have made a list Without heart renders in it or life takers, right? And yet tonight when I just said and by the way what I said before the show was we didn't like talk I just said you take this make a couple lists. You take this I'll make this and so on and so forth Like just sort of we split up the temples, right? And I said, um But but but if we had done that same exercise pre broken realms Not a one of our lists wouldn't have had heart renders in it. Not a one. Yeah, right Right and now zero because they just they end up being the cut Right And In something like Calibron Especially if you have shadow stalkers like the list you had Uh, Tyler, I just don't think you care as much right because you don't need to hold the thing in reserve and drop You've got between your own teleport and your shadow stalkers teleporting. Yeah, you've got the threat, right? Right. Absolutely. Um the But the life takers are such an interesting play because they can hit Super duper duper hard and the float is like people underestimate the float And a tender of those guys. Yeah, but I don't think you can go bigger than 10 I just don't like 160 points. Yeah, it's crazy It's crazy how cheap it is. Yeah, and you're talking about potentially, you know, they're like three damage attacks or whatever, you know right, yeah Talk about coming in like a wrecking ball like you're coming in Like a unit of carnaval hunters. Let's be clear on numbers here Swords not size No, the swords are the best Right With all of the buffs that they like Well, they're they're way better than carnaval hunters For half the price But but what i'm saying is they're on that that large like Base and doing similar comparable damage when I got you I got you Like and they're 160 for 10 of those bad boys. Yeah, it's no I uh shout out to dane who was the Buddy who who I rode with down to can con early last year Who was the highest placing dock person in in can con? And he was running a tenor of life takers in his list and he was calling people out They did not expect the thunder that those guys were bringing, you know, so Yeah, I mean they can they can get there In the cauldron guard Like is a wonderful battalion like I like it's what I was Before I cut Like that's what I would have been Right here, but like the reason why I like I didn't run a battalion is because I didn't want to have to run um Like that 280 points I spent on bloodstalkers would normally be spent on lifetakers. Sure. Sure And by the way, I think this is the kind of stuff you would like I we we could do a whole second round of lists but without marathi yeah and Coach is pushing back on on dane's because he said he's the only person running dock at can con that might be but he was also like 15th place overall coach in 220 people coach. Where where'd you finish buddy? Uh at any rate So yeah, I'm staring at my friend jesse's list here slaughter queen and cauldron two two hags on foot Blood rack produce with my racer 30 sisters slaughter two by 10 witches 20 blood sisters and 10 bloodstalkers. You got a rain. Yeah, sure. You're not double tapping on the 10 blood stalkers But still 20 shots a good number of wounds Uh 20 blood sisters 30 with such sisters. He's still got four hammers three Three melee hammers and a decent semi ranged hammer and 10 blood stalkers Still got two by 10 witches for screens for whatever two hags on foot Yeah, that's pretty good list 139 wounds 1970 Yes, absolutely. Uh, it was the absolutely coach. I hear your brother. It's all good. Uh, the Yeah, I think what's interesting is if you don't use marathi if you don't use marathi What you buy yourself is the ability to get in all these other units, right? You can't expand out your hero potential Like you can you can make the move to have a second hag queen or or to have morgueigh's coven or whatever You know, so you've got a more durable hag queen. Uh, we didn't talk about her, but she is a perfectly viable choice Uh, and like it's interesting because it gives you a much more durable hag queen, right? Yes, yes Yes, absolutely It gives you the option to do things like, you know a unit of lifetakers and two units of of um Of heart renders or something like that, right? Like all these things suddenly become possible where you just can go way more broad and versatile You know, you are losing the utility But if you still got the slaughter queen on cauldron, you still keep your melee double tapping, right, right? If I sacked marathi Um, I would probably sack blood stalkers as well Yeah, because I think she's what makes them worth it. Honest answer. Yeah, she Yeah, 20 shots at that point. I have 880 points to spend right. Yeah Like why it's just so much when we were talking about Taking the canine chatter stalkers. Absolutely. You're going to roll 18 of those, right? Like you might do two units of 18 of those Uh, because those are really double double those is actually two really interesting teleporting hammers for 200 Yeah Yeah, go ahead. No, you go ahead. Go ahead Well, I what I would probably do is take this current list if I scrap those two things I would add the battalion back in um, and that would give and I would do a tenor and a fiver of of Uh, whatever they're called um a tender of blood sister No, uh, lifetakers Lifetakers these are in the battalion. Yeah. Um, I would do a Uh, I would bump my shadow stalkers to 18. Sure Uh, and then what I would probably actually do is upgrade my hag queen to a hag queen on culture. Sure. Sure. Um, and I think that I still have not spent all those points. Uh, so I would get the, uh Um, I would probably bump up one of my sisters to another 30 block of witches Sure. That's in the battalion and I would add the, uh, the Uh, the wizard the wizard with shadow stone. Um Yeah, so the point is that like you you you can get a lot out of it But and again, it's funny that I'm still looking at that going. I don't know, you know, I don't know Like that's that good It's it's interesting that those two things balance against each other. Uh, and I think actually what's the best Here's here's my honest read on it. There is no best between those two Right and what's going to be the best is largely going to be based on the type of stuff that's doing well Or is present in the meta the types of lists you expect to face and the types of uh, the the battle plans the scenarios, right? that you're going to be going into so um because That's ultimately going to say like What is the plan here a lot more bodies and versatile and utility spread across the board and you know spread out threat or This one piece that can just dominate right and like different there are different answers to that based on what you're up against and what the Yeah, yeah what I was going to say, uh for consideration The battle mage With wild form for plus two to run in charge on like 18 shadow stalkers or oh, I know like in a spellbomb Yeah, I got going against croak board wide unbind. Yeah. Yeah, like yeah, there's situations But it's on a five and just battle mage backboard that battle mage Shadow stalkers in range. There you go seven up teleport. Yeah, sure We roll really wants to charge wild form is really good. It's like it's It's a really good spell. So Sure Like I was thinking about that with calabron like yeah, 10 blood sisters over right. Yeah, just 110 points It's not cheap But like a number of lists you could probably find the points for that and again just backboard it With your teleport units sure well in the fact that you have run in charge Units in your army also makes something plus two to run and charge uh much more viable. So yes, yeah, totally Yeah, absolutely. Yeah Yeah All right. Yeah, good. So there you go. That's doc post uh broken realms morathi It's exciting. I it is I think what's so great about it is that they managed to add So much to the army without making me go. Oh, well now they just shot it in the stratosphere of overpower Or something right right, right? They they really did a great job of Adding interest versatility and bringing up the internal balance to me. This is what I want to see broken realms doing right, this this is where we should be this should be the the sort of Uh, platonic ideal we're aiming for with what broken realms can do is increasing that internal balance The more of that you do I I tend to be a believer that the more internal balance there is amongst all the armies The uh The more just the the meta itself will be externally balanced. That's not completely true. There's obviously good exceptions to that but I think Regardless of that people will be having more fun because they'll be running more lists that they want to run within the army They love right, so What do you guys in terms of let's take tom's list? It's kind of rough that In terms of external balance Is that list and a pretty good spot or is it is that in balance? Yeah, I think so. Yes It's it's high end of in balance, but it's in balance I mean ultimately like I said the the the only reasons it wouldn't be is because hagnar is janky because it's built like an aos one thing Right if we rewrote hagnar like an aos two thing Then I would say it's then then I have no issues Yeah, okay, cool. Yeah, that's generally my sense as well. Yeah Yeah All right, cool. Awesome. Well everybody Hey, if you're out there watching you're still with us. I should have said it earlier I didn't say it in the show because I'm a bad person, but please hit the like button Uh, you're supposed to say that earlier in the show. That's what I'm supposed to do it in between transitions But I didn't To make up for me being stupid hit like for me being stupid So or hit like if you don't think I'm dumb either way hit like because I didn't ask you to do that Earlier and only now hit the like button. It helps other people find the show It's as easy as clicking a little thumbs up and it means the world to me Uh and to all of us because it it does help increase the engagement of everybody. So thank you everyone tyler Absolute pleasure as always brother. Yeah guys. It's been fun. Absolutely 100 for all of you out there watching. Thank you so much for watching again as always We'll see you next wednesday