 You can now follow me on all my social media platforms to find out who my latest guest will be and don't forget to click the subscribe button and the notifications button so you're notified for when my next podcast goes live. Let's say I'm away and I'm touring with England. My first tour away in England I was away for three months in the Caribbean and payment for that was 13 grand. Yeah, ah, there you go. So it's you have all this pump and you have all this ceremony and people see you on TV and the interpretation they get about what they get from that is wow you're minted and blah blah blah. Now 13 grand we're going back now 30 years on top of your wages then you're nice but it's not a place where you can afford to party people are talking about me playing for England. I'm a 22nd birthday I made my I made my debut for England so I'm living that first part I'm just living this dream where it comes to match fixing bizarrely enough I know very little what I know is because somebody came to me and started talking and I'm there going flipping out now now whether what he's saying is true I don't even know but he's got been about it didn't he so I'm there going mm-hmm but now I'm in a funny position now because I've met with you and I'm exposed it seems within no time at all I'm on my way to the Caribbean and the idea is going to bring some drugs back into the country and I'm going to get paid 50 grand doing that I keep saying to people that you know at that moment I'm not thinking that I want to be a drug dealer I'm just thinking 50 grand that would be handy handy just to give a bit of space when you work out what you're going to do next you know just alleviate the thing and and sometimes like a lot of things the way out or the thing the way out you choose just gets you deeper in just causes more problems so here I am coming back of course I'm stopped at the bloody end I'm stopped at the end boomerang today's guest we've got big Chris Lewis how are you brother begin good to see you nice to be here mate nice to finally catch up yeah I know mate it's been a while yeah speaking for a while but first and foremost how are you brother I'm good um better than ever actually um as it happens good mate very fascinating story English international cricket player to then drug smuggling you end up getting a 13-year sentence like mad at shit on it but it's a it's an interesting story that people like to hear people love to hear that mad shit though like the way you speak like the way you talk you think man he's a big quiet man like and then obviously you meet your big presence six feet free and then you're like a fucking hell man but 13 years is a long time brother let's just say it was a it's a journey and perhaps just to encapsulate all of it you know um if part of that time I didn't scare myself to death going to jail and a few other stuff um I've enjoyed the ride I've learned so much I've become so much more um because of those journeys you know um in the beginning as a young boy I I just dreamt about about playing cricket about emulating my heroes the idea behind that is that you play cricket you'll be famous you'll be able to afford the things that you want life is sorted you know you're young it's helpful you know if I had a bit of cash and I'm having a bit of fun um you don't look beyond that um I guess I was fortunate enough to be able to achieve those things and you get there and then of course um there's more you look at that and you go okay in my case was to be a professional cricketer and you go an international cricketer and then you want to be one of the best and all the while you're looking for that that enjoyment that space where you feel good you know um and you get those things and you realize that it's not necessarily that space isn't necessarily there or it's not the things you know um so you move on you you make a a different plan and I certainly in my case sometimes you get it horribly wrong and you you end up in a dull place also but at the end of it now it's actually all over um all of that stuff actually served me in a way that I learned so much and I I feel that much more confident I feel that much more capable of just doing my stuff right now yeah you know so you learn more through your mistakes anyway the the the thing about life is everybody makes mistakes everybody's too quick to judge everybody's too quick to point fingers as if their lives are perfect we all fuck up we all make mistakes the thing about yourself is you put your hands up and says look I fucked up just like everybody so fair play to that but I always like to go right back to the start of my guess no let's do it where you grew up how it all began I grew up in a place called Guyana um South America South America yeah um just in the coast um the Caribbean about Trinidad is about 40 minutes off the coast um for us um we were more Caribbean than probably South America you think of South America you think of the different European language you think of Spanish but we spoke English and we took part in the Caribbean side of things with the British um we played cricket so as a young boy growing up in Guyana I aspire to be Viv Richard and Michael Holden and all those guys at the time who we all looked up to um I would describe it as just uh at the time a normal upbringing um during the day when you went to school we were not even in our shorts we were in an underwear just running around the streets and playing cricket and just having fun so it was just it was just fun time but you're there and you're dreaming and in Guyana being a former British colony most of us dreamt about making ourselves better by traveling aboard by traveling to England so that was a thing that lots of people aspire to so my father um within a year of me being born was on his way to England to you know make things better so not leaving anybody behind as perhaps some people would see it um a bit of a pioneer setting out and going to a foreign land with the idea of getting work and making good for the family my mom joined him a few years later and then I arrived as a 10 year old you know um to this place that I'd heard so much about um I'd only heard brilliant stories streets in London of paved with gold and all the stories you heard in Guyana were such grand stories about everything so there's all that excitement and everything else um about coming um eager to come um yes there's so much sadness that you're leaving your aunts your uncles and your grandmother and all those people behind um but eager to come and start the adventure and I get here and it was cold the streets are paved with shat and depression the soldiers are storing well here I am I'm driving from the airport looking and I'm going all right yeah right I've already done this it's so gray and everything's looked bleak and it's cold um so it was a bit of a shock for the first I think it was about six weeks I was at home before I started my school and it was a bit of a shock I think I spent a lot of days sort of crying just crying I don't want to be here I want to go back to my grand um that sort of thing but it all shifted I think when I started school after I started school the school played cook it and that was the thing I knew from back home everything else or a lot of stuff I was kind of learning um it's a new culture even the food I mean I'd never come across things like glumage and all that sort of stuff sorry I'm looking at the food and poking what's that you know um cauliflower and just simple things that people would just take for granted I hadn't seen so I'm just looking at this stuff suspiciously and going okay what's that and what's this um again like so much of it it's just a a massive learning curve but the thing that I suppose gave me a bit of comfort within all of that was summertime and cook it because I played cook I played cook it since I was a kid I'd listened to cook it since I was a kid so that was that was my thing now I hadn't played cook it at any standard I was one of the guys just playing in the street for um for jokes so I wasn't playing for any team but I could play and so when cook it season started here um at school um that's what I threw myself into um that was my kind of my kind of haven um as a young boy so I don't think I was the most academic young boy I was the boy who was always staring out the window in the class when he was should be doing his work um sort of thing drew me about quicker pieces for me uh day dreaming yeah um I was I was a little bit like that um but fortunately for me I saw the 16 or 17 you see me six foot now I wasn't that then I grew and it became a bit stronger and a lot more people started taking notice of my cook it and at 17 I'm leaving home I'm on my way to Leicester to be a professional cook it um I'm stoked in it you know that's the thing you've always wanted to do and here I am packing my bags and I'm and there and I get to Leicester and then you see people like Peter Willie and David Gah and they're they're good not good cook it is they're fantastic cook it is and the idea is I'm supposed to be in the team with them and I was I've just been playing in the park with my mates um so it was a big big jump perhaps emotionally and confidence wise to start to get your head around that you you're going to be in the team with these guys and the expectation is that you have to perform but all of that but I'm really excited mate I'm just so excited and you you're seeing things you're meeting people um all those sort of things and I think at the same time it's the first time going becoming a professional at 17 that I'd really actually train my body before you go and have a kick around in the park yeah you play all day with your mates but I'd never actually trained my body and here we were training twice a day and it kind of took off my body caught to it and the training and within a year I'm on a a young England trip in the World Cup to Australia I come back and it's another year and people are talking about me playing for England um on my 22nd birthday I made my I made my debut for England so I'm living that first part I'm just living this dream where you're going wow look what's happened there you're just doing your thing and enjoying your cookie and you're going oh wow you're playing for England and wow you're doing that and you wow you're doing that um but I suppose that that never quite lasts for for various reasons whether you you take your eye off the ball um you start enjoying things perhaps off the field um a little bit too much relationships become become complicated but in the end I ended up playing 80 or times I don't believe in what achievement though um were you partying like when you started making it did you have that because I know a few boys who try and add a nail of their rum and the rum's like fucking 80 percent you know I was you know I was all right you could say I was lucky because when I started I didn't I didn't smoke I didn't drink I was the kid that people were trying to get to have a lager but he was there with his water yeah so even though here I like dancing so I did have late nights but night clubs don't open till 11 May but certainly I think until my mid to late 20s I was I was a non-drinker I was a non-smoker dedicated to your craft yeah but I did like dancing so I'd finish cricket 6 30 go back to the hotel go back home have something to eat have a nap and I'd be peeking out about 11 o'clock to go listen to some music somewhere have a dance two o'clock 2 30 we're done back in bed um and that worked for me um the first part of it perhaps it becomes a little bit more difficult when you get into a bit of drinking you know um and certainly that happened to me and but at the same time I tried very much to enjoy my experience um so money is spent and unfortunately for me things come to an abrupt end yeah as things do but see when you were in Trinidad see to come to England did you find it easier to adapt because it was a British colony and you learned English before you arrived well it was it was Guyana we were just not far from Trinidad about 40 minutes from Trinidad yeah for sure um the fact that so many things that we learned was from a British perspective it was a British colony so we learned all things British um so when you come there is so much that you understand but of course there's so much you don't understand because of course you never experienced all of that you've had the words and you have an idea and Britain and England is this place and and so forth and of course you you speak the language so you can well a version of the language did that help though oh um for sure it did for sure it did to have to come and at the same time being a new place with all those new things and not know the language I would imagine makes it that much harder to actually yeah to actually you know getting grossed in things in and belong to things how was that being away from your mum and dad the first 10 years when they moved to England was that tough or do you know see no it's it's a different culture and all of my friends we all grew up with our grandparents it was an environment where you weren't necessarily living in a nuclear family you and your parents um the extended family lived in a house in most cases every soon I mean so the environment most of your time you spend with your grandmother even though your mum was in the house she went to work and people had to go and find work because there's there's no government aid so you have to go off and you have to do things so people have to be active so most of us grew up with our grandparents so mum mum mum going of course but in a funny in a funny sort of way I packed her off nicely because my grandmother let me do whatever after my dad left mom had to be mom and dad yeah so she had to be the yeah and she had a young boy who was trying to get himself into all sorts of trouble as you do so mom had to be that one that was that was tough where my grandmother was just my grandmother so I tended to hang out with my grandmother quite a lot but no it's different perceptions um I hear when I tell this story sometimes people go oh my god that was so sad or that was it or I talk about my upbringing in the Caribbean where as young kids we had to go and fetch water to have our bath our toilets are actually outside you call it a hole in the ground with a hut and you tell that story and people's perception of that oh my god that was so sad you're so abused and they go oh stop there wasn't absolutely none of that here I am and then I'm having the time of my life you're just looking at it from different lens you know so the idea that mum went dad went um you more look at those guys as heroes because they're going to prepare the way they are just to an extent adventurous they're brusque takers yeah they are willing to go to another country a place they don't know for the betterment of all of us so the perception and how people look at it is perhaps very different than people looking back now and perhaps just looking at the fact that they're leaving yeah the scary thing is that people might think that's poverty but you'll look at probably look at kids now on their phones overweight depressed and then you'll look at the kids back home when they're running about not got much but are happier than anybody on the planet look to their face you see that do you see that the difference from kids from the UK from kids back home I think for me I would say that over the years um it's changed um when I came here perhaps not so much I think generally as West Indians people see us as being a bit more exuberant so as a person coming here um I felt free to express myself because that's how we were um back home um your differences or you do this that's fine he does that he does this I find that over here that perhaps being a little bit more different the expectation is that people follow a pattern so from that perspective the kids were a little bit more subdued kids are kids they look for their happiness generally speaking but there were a lot more rules and regulations um um going on yeah so to speak but I would say now we're now 40 years on I would say most definitely um kids seem to have a lot more stuff around them but that hasn't equated to more happiness yeah to be fair for me yeah I think a lot of people here are spoiled who don't there's too many distractions now in my own opinion I've got kids and it's hard to keep them away from iPads and phones but part I've got to take responsibility for that because I've gave them that stuff but do you know what I mean you want a couple hours go on your iPad but then as time goes they're so consumed by it as soon as they finish school they want phones they want iPads and it's an interesting one I mean I look at it from the people around around my space and what I see was perhaps a lot of people who had difficult times in their life growing up because the old world so to speak was an easy world people had to work and it was it was difficult times and they experienced lots of things and I think it's almost natural that you look at your kids and you go the things that I went through some of those things I wouldn't want them to go through um whether that some of the people were when they were young might have been hungry or they didn't have this and they didn't have that and so forth so perhaps there was almost an overreaction to our kids and we went here you go have everything if you see without fully necessarily appreciating that perhaps there's something gained as you pointed out earlier in having to experience certain types of things having to work it out you know having to things not necessarily always been comfortable and things not always been there um it turns out it teaches you a lots of skills um that you may need later on for life yeah seem you made your england debut at 21 were you that's 22 22nd 22nd birthday so how was that feeling then kids just coming over you've only been here 10 years to then the job the general boss did west and he's not wanting to take you on no it was it was a difficult thing is that sense that once I was here in order to get into the game I had to become pretty much um an English qualified player because at the time you're only allowed so many overseas players so if I'm allegiance with the West Indies I qualify as an overseas player and each club is only allowed two and of course they're going for the superstars they're not going for the trial lists so that's the non-starter so being in England simply meant in order to play cricket you had to become English but that was part of the plan anyway that's why I was here so to speak so um I got my papers uh I think I was 17 when I actually got my papers um but that day it's still the most exciting day in my cricket in life because you dream about stuff and I never thought necessarily it was going to happen and then there you are in the midst of it and you're 22 but you dream this when you were 7-0-8 and you just go shit wow look at that holy fuck what do I do and then you go okay do what you've always done I'm gonna have to blag this just like everything so off you go mate do your stuff um but listen it was a it was a it was a beautiful day and not just from the enjoyment it was in the Caribbean yeah um my family and people were there to see um it was against West Indies so that meant those same guys I talked about Vivi Richards I was playing against them oh shit I didn't imagine that I thought you'd be long gone so I could have a chance you know but um there you are so it was a great day and so informative in the sense that the realization that your dreams can come true because I dreamt that when I was a little boy that was the thing that I wanted to do and then you're like wow okay then okay how do I do that again how do I do that with a billion pounds you know but it it's a it's a positive experience and it shows you positive things that's something that perhaps you can go back to in a later life when you need it and drawn you know which certainly with my difficulties going going ahead um having those lessons were useful I sound believable that your your debut was against the West Indies and that was talking about your stars aligned in your home country you understand so it's like wow look at that that's that's crazy was that money is on money and cricket did you get extra money for it wasn't a national well of course there's money but it's not it wasn't life changing certainly not life changing I don't like to mention sort of numbers but yeah let's say I'm I'm away and I'm touring with England my first tour away in England I was away for three months in the Caribbean and payment for that was 13 grand yeah ah there you go so it's you have all this pump and you have all this ceremony and people see you on TV and the interpretation they get about what they get from that is wow you're minted and blah blah now 13 grand we're going back now 30 years on top of your your wages then you're nice yeah but it's not a place where you can afford to party it's not football as weird as you understand it's on you you go into the wrong nightclub you make a mess for that month so it's that sort of thing now of course over the years we're here for and where now people go for six weeks to the IPL and they're earning a million dollars and so forth thing but it it isn't that space you're you're playing as a professional and my first professional salary was three grand as a professional cricketer so even playing for England I'm playing at you're playing for clubs or you're what they call a senior player you're still only in those times 11 or 12 grand so then you get selected for England and you're doubling that yeah so you're going okay I'm doing alright I can afford to do whatever I need to do and I can pop out and have a couple of shandy sometimes but we're not talking about um at certainly at that time about money that you're talking life changing and you can go and do those things we're talking about a situation where compared to other people you're still earning reasonably good money but you can't go and make a mess I mean it what you don't want is to bump into one of your football mates and have to have a night out with him because by the end of it you'll be broke you know what I mean but life life life is good you're a young person and you're off on your journey and you're starting to earn some money money means that you can go and buy a mortgage and go and get a car and that sort of thing so you're in your experience and you're thinking you know um this is this is great but it isn't the sort of football and glamorous as as the other side of things certainly not with not with the finance um at that time um now um it's in a healthy place where there's a lot more money around and people can earn um decent wages yeah that's massive all around the world Scotland I know I cut our boys at play a film but they're a shat man in there I'm gonna stick up for the boys because the Scottish boys yeah made it yeah to the super trolls yeah yeah they made it there okay yeah yeah it hasn't it hasn't gone well since they've been there but it's a good learning curve because they'll know for next time they get there to make sure that all those big boys don't mug them yeah that's they're doing now they need to at least let's say it's the foot in the door but listen listen it's just it's always the same story with Scotland like football cricket what up but it's just we always get there but never go any further it's listen I'm it's fucking sad to make our numbers we've got great listen we've got great individual footballers we've got great snooker players and darts is a thing that we've got uh decent people um but when it comes to cricket it's not don't think we've got the weather for it either up in Scotland okay I must admit I've been to Scotland three times to play cricket and every time it's a bit rained off I can't disagree however listen I think for the resources Scotland have and how long things have been going I think they did brilliantly well to get get to the World Cup I think it'll be a massive learning curve for them going from playing associate members to playing the big boys and people bowling at 1990 95 miles an hour rather than 80 85 it's a big shift and it's those sort of shifts that if they're looking to get better that they're gonna have to do over the next few years but I'm pretty confident looking at some of them and knowing the Scottish mentality that they'll give that a good go to kick on and push on see the training for cricket obviously you said it's full you're full 10 year training twice a day is that how is that as extreme as it is like training non-stop well certainly it can be um that is a bit extreme in the sense that you're talking it's pre-season so you've just come back from the winter and you've got a month to get fit so there's a lot of running going on there's a lot of training there's a lot of practice going on during that time once the summer actually starts and you're actually playing cricket some of these games are going on for four days and then after that there might be a game straight after that and then I leave that go to a test match play for five days and the day after that you're back playing so during the summer it can be problematic or it used to be problematic trying to find the right rest so it was hard to play and train if you see what I mean because you're already exhausted because you've just worked you've done five days you've got two days off so the question is now do you train in those two days or do you rest up for the game so it was that it was that sort of thing because there was a lot of cricket there was more cricket than there was now from the four day game there was I think there's now 12 there was 18 four day games and four three other competitions so and you were playing for England so England would bore you for five days but the day that games finish the next morning you're back paying for your club the next day because they want you back so the training during during the summer at that time you just I just had to kind of work it out sometimes I went to the gym first thing in the morning sometimes it was just stretching but it was more kind of feeling your body and getting up go you know what is it tiring from the test matches go for five days ODIs was it 50 overs yeah T20 like seniors if you're playing a test match and you have to stand there all day what what's what's a good game for you to play in as test matches become boring if you've got to stay tuned on or they tune out how okay I mean I think more in my time it was more the long format people were focused on whether it's test match in five days of test matches is or the county games which were which were four days but that's the sort of cookie you grew up on and to somebody looking from the outside you can go hey I can you stand up there doing nothing for hours yeah and then you go I'm not really doing nothing actually me we've got a plan here we actually work into something so there's things that are keeping you occupied in between that because you've got a plan so it's not just an actually a standout and you know what even now at 50 sometimes on a Saturday I'm stood in the middle of a cricket field and just look around and go is there any other place you'd prefer to be and the answer is generally no this is nice I like this that's a great feeling though that you're out there and you do something that you love yeah actually people are just so impatient now for people who doesn't understand cricket you can understand if somebody's standing there for hours and hours and there's not much happening what the fuck is going on here but cricket is massive globally it seems to have boomed around ten years even more so I think I think there's a lot more excitement perhaps to cook it that people are seeing now is one that appeals to perhaps so many more people is that a positive short of formats I think so I think so I think you look at the longer format and perhaps it's more niche you really got to have a real passion for the sport and generally speaking it's people who've grown up within the sport in some way shape or form yes of course there's new people coming but I think the new format it has so much who has my task so much excitement to it it appeals to young people who generally may not like cricket and they go actually that's quite exciting I like that and it doesn't take forever because of course they've been patient yeah they're not going to want to hang around for five days the world we live in there's not many people who want to hang around for five days to find that the result of a match you know I mean so cricket in that sense it's quite niche you know and most people it's more instant and the shorter format it gives people that it's a crash bang wallop and there's excitement all the way I went down to the oval to see a 2020 match as a spectator and I was in there and I was like okay I get it now I didn't really watch the cricket it was the atmosphere and the enjoyment and everything else that was going on so certainly I think the short format has helped and there's so many different formats in the sense of so many different tournaments that's your format you got the Indian Premier League you got the competitions here you got the hundred here you got the blast you've got competitions in Pakistan and the Caribbean so there's just so much more of it going around the world for people to have a look and go actually that's not bad rather than perhaps when I was younger that's boring what you do everybody's everybody's wearing the same color everybody's this you know black uniform um some people yeah um and then you have this thing where there's just so much color and so much excitement and the aim I think any young person even somebody who doesn't play cricket the idea of hitting a ball and hitting it over the fence hitting it that far has got to give you some sort of thing if you see the reason I know about crickets because I used to be a bad gambler so I used to bet on the Indian Premier League I used to bet on the Indian Premier League the Mumbai Indians and Ted Dielkeren that's the only reason I know because I used to watch it with the crowd in the atmosphere I used to enjoy the T20 because it was fast it was explosive yeah I bet you used to go all over the place from favourites to underdogs because everything is changing so quickly so that my buzz used to be through the fucking roof oh that's what I know about like oh that's shit like I'm a football background but I used to watch the T20 and I was just fucking unbelievable watching that Premier League and the money they used to get it was all the biggest players from around the world and like you see all the bright colors in the crowd were all nuts and I just love betting on it thankfully not anymore because I fucking love sports and I've had that clue what I was betting on but yeah what's the the best game you've ever played in what's the one that stands out in your mind okay we talked about that one that the my debut so that's proud moment yeah that's always in there that's always in there but perhaps going to India and scoring a hundred in India in those conditions um buried in mind last year we were there and perhaps it was the same old problems where we were still struggling to to baton the Indian turning wickets you know um so to have a have a moment where for a few hours you mastered that kind of I'll take that okay you need no more information you can clearly play because you you spent a couple of hours hitting the Indian bowl so forget all the other games you played didn't you remember that one so that one sticks out but to be able to represent England in a not just a world cup tournament but to get to the final unfortunately um we lost to Pakistan 1992 but of course that game stands out um to play in a world cup final is is special even though for many years after it I was let's say upset I could use another word say vexed because we didn't win but after a while you go oh wow thank you that I had that opportunity okay it wasn't the perfect scenario because we would have left with the trophy but at least you you got an opportunity to play in a world cup final in front of 80 000 people and you go yeah okay then I'm good with that was that was that a hard one to take losing the world cup final yeah it was at the time I think as a young person then I looked at it and I thought oh a bit of a waste what's the point in getting all the way here and losing and I'm stood there on the field and I'm looking at the Pakistanis and they've got the trophy they're so happy and I wanted to be part of that team that potentially had that trophy and everybody in England was so happy because we had that trophy so there was a bit of envy going on there and as a sportsman certainly as a young guy I didn't want to lose yeah should have caught that one if only you didn't oh um bugged you for a while or it bugged me for a while and then eventually you get new thoughts and you go you know what that was all right I should have perhaps in the moment perhaps it's hard in the moment appreciated that moment a little bit more yeah who's the biggest who's the best English player you've ever played with first I'd say that I've played with some some great English players um Robin Smith Angus Fraser Mike Atherton uh Alex Stewart um and probably a whole host that I can't remember um at this moment but the person who sticks out um was Graham Gooch you know um he led by example when he got tough um he was up for it um sometimes I'd look at him and go I I get it while you're capping because when it's hard jacker when we're there and we have to face good as the ambush and all those West Indian guys you're up for it mate um so he wasn't necessarily the only person that was up for you know um Mike Atherton was a was a great fighter and and gave you nothing you know sometimes as a sportsman you want something from some sort of interaction you want some energy from he gave you nothing he was a fighter um but probably uh for me um Graham Gooch um fantastic fantastic yeah so from Korea like you say World Cup final nearly 100 internationals like it's a kid who's came from where you've came from at 10 years old making your England debut at 22 and then when your career started did the career start sliding and that's when changes started to happen oh there's of course with things like that they're injuries there's a hip injury I'm out of the game for a year the diagnosis is that I'm not going to play cricket again I then decide nah I'm going to go to the gym I'm going to get stronger um I did um a year later I'm at a new club um having to prove that I'm fit enough to be a professional quicker here again how old were you then I am 26 what they told you you were going to retire but you're sex yeah I'm 26 and I've left not in them I'm at the oval now um a bit stronger because I've had to go to the gym but the injury is still the injury and it's still there so I'm managing it but one of the ways of managing it is just simply by putting us a bit of bulk um basically so at the end of the day I'm still limping around and I'm still in pain and all those things but I can work through it um and essentially from there to the end of the career um I'm doing that um if I play for one game or if I'm working hard today tomorrow it ain't going to be that strong that's how it was how it was working so from there it's it's it's managing it um but you're taking painkillers no no did you tell people that you're enjoying that you're trying to everybody knows the injury because that's why I had to prove my fitness again when I went to a new club because I knew I had a hip injury and it's just a question of whether I can actually perform um unfortunately um I could perform because I was stronger um but it still needed to be managed I was still in pain you're talking about you know that sort of pain that shoots down your leg that sort of thing not just oh my leg hurts it's so at times you your mind doesn't want to put any pressure on it so you're running into bowl and your brain's going I'm not having any of this bluff you're on your own you're on your own you're going shout shout just do what I tell you all right uh let's do this do it light-hearted way but from there that's the struggle um with the body there there are struggles with other things because I suppose at that time I'm that likely so anything that seems to be going around I'm involved in it people come to me for match fixing I report it I end up in hot water um that sort of thing um and on top of that I make my own mistakes you know even with the hip I get back into the England team I'm having a great summer I'm leading the way that summer probably the last game of the summer in fact I'll tell the story the last game of the summer it's it's Pakistan we're playing at a test against Pakistan I've had a good summer India we're here earlier in the summer one man of the series against India so all is good and it's the Saturday I'm sat there and the manager comes we're gonna have a picture taken the team photo taken on the Sunday so he's inquiring who's got their blazes blazes but we've already been told we could wear our suits so I didn't bring my blazer but I'm only 15 minutes away from the ground so I go to the manager it's alright man it's at the end of the day I'll go home I'll get the blazer so I get home at the end of the day and I look around it's like actually my house looks quite comfortable here I'm gonna stop here tonight instead of going to the hotel but don't worry I'm about the same distance from the ground as the hotel is from the ground so it isn't a problem but two o'clock in the morning I've woken up and I'm restless so I've called a friend but I'm trying to think I'm trying to be professional as I'm not being professional and I'm thinking well actually my friend lives closer to the ground so in the morning it's just to hop down to go to the ground so go see a friend have a converse have a few conversations go to sleep I'm meant to be at the ground half eight I'm sleeping and some sun hits the side of my face and I don't know how this happened in that instant my brain has worked out the time and that's not an eight o'clock sun do you know that feeling where because of this and I've opened my eyes and I'm looking at a clock that's already saying half past nine and I'm meant to be at an international match at eight thirty in the morning and I'm like holy shit I'm down there within ten minutes but it's already done you've done what you've done and you've mucked up and that was the day that was my last test because you were late yeah that was my last test match was that an excuse to do that to you or was it well let me let me let me just say probably at that at that time there had been so much water under the bridge it was perhaps naive of me to put my head on a silver platter for somebody if you see if you understand yeah it was that sort of it um yeah sort of waited for a moment and I provided that what I provided was that for the the match fiction when people came forward to fix a bet and you says no and you gave their names no no um I I gave no names I listen where it comes to match fixing bizarrely enough I know very little what I know is because somebody came to me and started talking and I'm there going flipping out now now whether what he's saying it's true I don't even know but he's got been about it didn't he so I'm there going but now I'm in a funny position now because I've met with you and I'm exposed so here what I'm going to tell the people who this concern and I've got to tell them all that you said I don't know if any of that is true what you said but you said it to me yeah and I've seen I've got to tell you and I repeat that to you and just go mate I'll see you later that's it um but sometimes it's never that simple sometimes you get caught in that and people go well blah blah blah he's lying he's this he's that he's doing it to make money he's doing it for this doing it to that but that was just me perhaps I'm ending up in a place where somebody has come to me and if I kept that quiet and not done anything and then that come to light I would have been on the other side of that wouldn't I yeah sorry yeah you try to cover your own ass but it's still backfired on you the lines to do with me this bloke said that and I'm obliged to tell you your stuff I'm off did they think though that you were lying no they didn't they knew I was in line they knew I was in line um they just didn't want to know they just didn't want to hear it they knew I was in line looking you know when you're telling the story and you're looking into people's eyes whether they think you're lying or not they knew I wasn't I thank you I was sat there with them and it wasn't just about telling the story because the police were informed so of course the police had investigation and it cooperated things that I'd said but also listen when the fallout was coming and I was getting it one of the police officers that was doing the investigation called me and apologized and said listen I'm I'm sorry I would stand out for you blah blah blah but it was more convenient at that time for other people to perceive me in a certain way that to perceive that oh it's not a real thing it's just this guy who's a bit of a lie he's a bit dodgy he's a bit this he's a bit that so perhaps it was an easy fix do you come with escape got yeah I'm for sure so international careers over you've had a great career anyway um what's leaflet after that um it's different I'm I'm now insular um because you just watched me and I had years left on my contract and I'd made plans so all of those things are gone now and of course the reputation um isn't isn't any of the better so I've kind of wondered off um not so much interested in in cricket at that level I still play a bit of club cricket I do some count I work for the council um in Nottingham for a bit um coaching young kids um cricket the idea there is that we'll use cricket to try to get young kids off the streets um did that for a while opened my own cricket academy um in in Slough did that for a while but it's funny um cricket and playing cricket was easy and I say easy in the sense that it's easy when it's the thing that makes your heart sing you know and then there's just a period of time trying different things looking for that thing that makes your heart sing sing in the same way you know there's so many things you could do yeah I could do that I could do that but my heart's not in that I don't feel it and you hope that something will come along that you'll have the same passion for um I would say didn't and for eight years I did different things and I'm now 40 and I'm playing for the association the cricket association and it's now a time where 2020 is getting popular and people see me and go flipping out you can still move me can't you how can you could do a job for us and in no time at all I'm coming out of retirement that I've been in for 10 years and I'm coming to play a young man's sport now at 40 um play t20 um signed up at the oval um it's a quick thing in the sense that obviously they have reservations but it's pushed through and this is a pay as you play so if you don't play you're not going to get paid so you're taking a chance here you you've already gone away to Australia for x amount of months and so forth off your own back and this summer unless you play you're not going to get paid so that's a lot of time um so we started the season and then that thing happens the second game I play I've dived I've fallen on my hip and it's over it's probably over um again I've retreated out but I'm a bit challenged now um I haven't got any cash um when I'm saying I haven't got any cash I mean I haven't got any cash the last gosh went on the training and you were hoping to recoup some of that later in the year by playing cookie and now that's not gonna happen um are you gonna pay your bills are you gonna do this you're not even gonna be able to play cookie anymore um what are you gonna do now I need space I need a couple of months I need some time to work this out am I gonna do this I need some cash what are you gonna do for money and listen I know so many different people yeah different walks of life and all of a sudden their money talk became interesting to me because I didn't have any and I started listening to conversations that I'd never listened to and started thinking in my head oh wow that's a lot of money that could work out and it seems within no time at all um I'm on my way to the Caribbean and the idea is I'm gonna bring some drugs back into the country and I'm gonna get paid 50 grand for doing that um okay I keep saying to people that you know at that moment I'm not thinking that I want to be a drug dealer I want to be a bad boy I'm just thinking 50 grand that would be handy handy just to give a bit of space and you work out what you're gonna do next you know just alleviate the thing and sometimes like a lot of things the way out or the thing the way out you choose just gets you deeper in just causes more problems so here I am coming back of course I'm stopped at the bloody I'm stopped at the year 14 kilos like cocaine yeah well not for thankfully it wasn't 14 because there had been even more time it ended up being I think it was 4.6 or something like that they say it's 14 but I don't know they say it was more than the north I think it makes it more an interesting story yeah you know what I mean I think it makes it more impressive if you go you know he was caught with a ton because I'm thinking 14 kilos 50 grand I'm thinking you could have got more so you see um and of course what was the process that when you've got it in your case so where did you go for it where did you pick it up it's in it's in St Lucia so you went to St Lucia were you shitting yourself going on the plane it's not so bad you know in the plane listen listen listen you're shitting yourself or you're shitting yourself all through the process yeah um I suppose what desperation does is that you take that chance on a hope and a prayer because it is a hope and a prayer because you don't really know what's going on because that's not that's not your scene so you're just hoping that somebody looks by you don't they and don't actually see you um and I guess from what I know now that I was the obvious guy um because they were kind of waiting for me um so but listen so it wasn't a case again through costumes they were waiting for you yeah you feel as if somebody maybe stuck young listen I try not to get too much caught up in that um I did what I did I got caught whether somebody shocked me in or whether I just behaved and everything was just so badly done that it was it was an obvious thing um I try not to sort of go down that route I just you did that and you got caught however you got caught um and you had to do your time but no process on the plane and everything else um you've been in I've been in places you've faced people bowing in 90 miles an hour 95 miles an hour um but this felt like kind of real fear you know how shitting yourself fucking paranoid everybody's watching you and even the baby is watching you it's that sort of thing so um yeah yeah um start of I suppose what I call I call the dark times and I'm sentenced to the 13 years um in jail um to start with to be honest I've never been there I don't know about that so it's all your fears and all the things that I've seen in different places and all the things I've heard people say and then that's a whole idea of 13 years you can't I can't comprehend it um at a push the plan has been okay I'm playing cricket from April and it's gonna finish in September and I cope with that but to make a plan for 13 years or to be looking forward to something or the only thing to be looking forward for now in your life it's 13 years away it's like wow you you're not gonna sleep in your bed for 13 years you're not gonna do this you're not gonna do that and your your brain or your mind at the time just makes it even worse you're not gonna do that it's gonna be 13 years before you this is be 13 years before you have your own autonomy it's gonna be 13 years have been told what to do and in that moment 13 years seems like a number of lifetimes and you just go wow how am I gonna even get through that how am I gonna even can I even get through that you know um because 13 years is asking a lot of you and it's going are you are you man enough or when you go to jail as well are you woman enough you know can you handle this you you think you you think you are a strong person but this is gonna test you and really see who you are you know and it did it did because it's a time certain the first year where I'm not sleeping and I mean I'm not sleeping I'm dreaming two dreams every night but I'm dreaming them and they almost seem like they want to loop one I'm running and somebody's trying to catch me but I'm running in slow motion I can't run fast I'm trying to run fast but I'm moving I'm moving slow slow and then the other dream I'm perched on the end of one of those cranes they have all around London these days right at the tip of it and it's howling with wind and of course I think I'm gonna fall but I tell you I had these dreams so often I'd have these dreams and eventually I knew I wasn't going to fall or whoever was chasing me wasn't going to chase me because I'd had them so often I never fell but they were scary so I knew emotionally that I was in a bad way and I was afraid and I knew all those things because my dreams were telling me that I wasn't sleeping I'm thinking about everything from a negative point of view because everything I'm looking at is a mess there's not one bit of hope about this you may think of your brother and how much you like your love your brother but then your brain go yeah look what you've done to me so you just and I'm burning up mate I'm absolutely burning up till I get to a point where I go unless I get some sleep unless I get some rest I'm not gonna I'm just not gonna survive and that's when it it dawned on me you you you hear sometimes people on the certain circumstances they call them going crazy and in that moment I realize you can call it going crazy but in that moment something like that happening to me would have been a relief just to get some rest and you go holy shit that's why that could happen sometimes that's actually managing yourself because right about now going mad or what people call going mad and not taking this as seriously as I'm taking it would be a benefit to me and that was that that moment when I went shit this this thing is getting really deep you need to get a hold of your thoughts here because how your brain is working on its own you're just not going to survive through this it's just coming up with negative after negative you so a bit of self-talk but a bit of reading I've always been a bit of reader as regards to what people might call spirituality book and I had this book with me it's a big thick blue book it was called the course in miracles and it started talking it was talking about that sort of thing about things not necessarily being black or white but actually you're the person that actually colors the situation you're the person that actually decides whether something is good or bad and and so forth and started reading into that and started looking at myself and seeing how you're processing this stuff you know um there's a bit of anger that the fact that I'm even there looking at that and actually accepting full responsibility for all your life and the choices that you've made because the truth is whatever those choices are is those choices that's led to this moment yeah and you can go he did this they did this and there's always somebody who does something there's always them who do something but it then occurred to me that even in those situations that the person who gets the final say is me nobody is March me anyway so ultimately whether I believe people or not or whatever the person who's been in most control of this situation most of the time has been me by far people have come and gone so here I am in this crappy situation but yet we're still looking to blame somebody else and eventually my brain just went now mate I don't have any of that that's a lot of bollocks mate all right if there's anybody here you don't need to look at it's it's gonna be you yeah yeah you've met crappy people you've met this all of that is true I'm not saying it's not true but the person who's had the most influence on this thing mate was you but so how you treated in prison being from England international problem all over the papers when that came when you got sent and it's like the people treated differently do you get any special treatment in prison because of who you were as well it's not it's not so much a place for special treatment as people think you're locked up you're locked up so to speak your door can't be left open any longer than anybody else's because you're any good at those sort of things I think in most part it depends I think on who you are as a person you can be in jail and it's an easy place for people to use lose a little bit of their humanity that's perhaps the inmates and perhaps the the officers as well but I found generally that if you treated the officers as as people that more often than not that you got things or you saw a better side of them really people were curious the most curious thing is people want to know how do you go from being an England cricketer and clearly you must have been earning billions not but to be in or having the need to be a drugs smuggler you know and I think we touched on that perhaps at the beginning that the monies that we're talking about aren't necessarily the monies that people imagine that went with that role now that's not an excuse because as I pointed out it was decent but it wasn't it wasn't that space where you're earning you're earning millions so so that was the curious thing because people couldn't understand if they're going well you're an England cricketer with an England cricketer it meant that you've got a palace somewhere and you've got this and that so it's a big jump so that was that was the inquiry people wanted to know what went on in the middle the general perception is that you partied hard and you did this and you spent I partied quite a bit I spent quite a bit also but those aren't the issues the issues is that perhaps if you don't know about business and you don't take care of business eventually there's a crisis you know and perhaps as a young man I was more geared and my enjoyment and just enjoying the experience now again I wouldn't even sit in here now say that's the criticism because I worked so many things out of my system and it was a lot of fun too they think as though we think it lasts forever and we'll never get old listen listen as a young person of course it's gonna last forever I mean I remember being 20 other people talking about 40 and 40 could have been a million years away how long I thought that was gonna take and you turn around a couple of times and you look in the mirror and then there's this 40 year old looking back at you you know um but listen mistakes have been made and of course if I was to have some moments again I would make um different choices but I've enjoyed my experience um and perhaps to even sit here and to be able to go I've even enjoyed my mistakes I didn't necessarily enjoy that big one going to jail that much but even my mistakes have been uninformative to me so in that case when I'm when I'm quiet and I'm still I look at it and go wow it's been a blessed life 13 years is a bit much though is it not but you're not thinking fuck me they threw the book at me there like a seven or a eight possibly but a 13 it's it's murderers get fucking 13 and 15 years oh I met I met them and they got less at times do you know what I mean what was that time you're thinking that why why they threw the book at you you know what you know what that one I just didn't bother going down there because after a while I worked out the sort of thoughts that don't help and the ones that do yeah blaming everybody else for every day you still get fucking caught for shipping drugs do you know what I mean like I understand it but for me looking from now say the answer of you all different kinds of characters yeah people who used to ship 500 key thousand key a cocaine and some of them are getting nine years and you've got 13 for four key like my take in it is they wanted me and perhaps like a few times in my life I've presented the perfect opportunity um in in that sense I think once it was me with my track record um it was never going to be slap on the wrist um so to speak um there's always this is an argument you can go listen you could have got 15 years it was your tariff I think was between 10 and 15 so you got 13 so that's in the middle um so to speak I think I didn't interview somebody asked a similar question and they go do you think that was a bit excessive and why would that why do you think that was excessive and I just went you know what it's not worth me answering either those questions because all of them has pain in it for me so why even bother yeah if you see what I mean what am I going to come up with oh Chris they like you so much man they gave you say yeah you know like you know it's done mate how many different prisons will you in one two three four did anybody ever try and test you you know it was it was funny um because you're a big fucking unit anyway do you know what I mean they did have a bit of balls themselves to test you do you know only I'd been in jail six four and a half years the last week somebody somebody uh pulled the thing on me um never been didn't get into any altercation the boys did their thing you know it goes they did their thing people who were involved in that um never and then the last week I'm just cooling out it's all done now I'm there okay big man thankful you survived this it's all done you're going and the last week um I'm there and there's this moment somebody's got a thing and he's like there and I'm like eyes are wide open and I'm looking straight into his eyes and I'm clear and I'm going okay I can't fight this guy he's got something in his hands and if this goes on for any length of time I'm going to get damaged a number of times so if anything is happening this has to be quick so I'm ready and I'm looking in your eyes and I'm waiting for you to blink because as soon as you blink I'm going to have to move because on this I do I'm going to get hurt here um and he eased off and he eased off and he pulled back but that was the only time one time the last week it's strange it's all done it's from god right I'd like to see if you have changed was it what was it like getting out then what was it like becoming a free man that was a lot of stresses did you feel like okay I've learnt my lesson are you thinking you'd maybe feel then life what what were you thinking I'll be honest about the learning the lesson thing listen come on man it was it was wrong in the first place um I did it um so we know we know you look at your family and you look at you look at my mom and the shit that you put them through and how they feel and the stress that they've got and you just go no I mean the plan because whatever plan we have we're not trying to make it worse for the people we love you know whatever plan you have whoever you are you're not going you know what I'm going to come up with a plan that's going to make it worse for my mom and make it worse for everybody I know so here you are and you've done that so you just go okay then that's that's the hardest thing though that you'd gave them so many wonderful years being in England International did they have any extent that things were that bad for you that you were going to take risks like that other than listen they didn't they they don't they don't know um those things I think also perhaps possibly they live in that world where you see that you see that creator and you look and you think everything is fine oh he's on tv he must be rich and he must be this and he must be that and he must be all of those things and I don't think it's not necessarily just a general public who sometimes has that view I think it can also be um people people close to you but having said all those things I didn't reach out um I'll be honest um I felt a little embarrassed because I thought I should have done better personally because I was the one who had that opportunity to do that if you sooner me to fix things up and certainly at that time clearly I didn't have the mouse to do it because I didn't um pride was dented about um yeah yeah of course pride was dented a bit you you see yourself as you can look at yourself as this person you think you you're capable and then situation is presented to you but it shows you unequivocally that actually you dropped the ball and you weren't even aware there was a ball to be carried um at that time so personally you have to take that again you can thrash around and try to blame everybody else but I think the easiest thing the thing that gives more release and the thing that allows you to move on and do better is actually just taking it on the chin going yeah I'm up tough I should have known that um actually maybe lots of people came to tell me that but I didn't listen so I would say there's a time probably about three or four years in where I'm going through my process my internal process and then eventually you just go okay I get it it was me you know what let's do this again let's let's do this whole life thing again I'm still breathing yeah I've learned what I'm not what you need to learn but I think I've learned enough um about myself about my own actions that I'm confident that going forward for me yeah I'm going to ace it so let's do this again if you remember I say this shit all the time but we always make mistakes we always fuck our inner minds you don't know what kind of pressure and stress these people are under to make fucking shitty decisions but we do we don't know what's around the corner we don't know what obstacles are going to arise so see when you went through the process of going through a prison were you this one by old teammates and everyone or did anybody reach out and stand by you listen it's it's both isn't it because you know um when you make certain choices that certainly if you're talking about drugs people can have such varied response to it um I don't want to know I don't want to be associated with that and whatever stance people take you can understand it we got to protect ourselves we can't be seen to be associated with this so people did that and then there are the people um who reached out but even in that moment it ended up being a blessing because the people who didn't after you've left jail you don't want them around anyway yeah you think that was your family and the old couple of friends so uh look at it and you go or I went or I'm of a mind now where I'm looking at this thing now we have a few more years into it and I'm looking at it and going even with this I'm winning and my mind is now looking that positively at myself again I'm going even with this I'm winning the people who aren't here not the people that I was planning to move forward with anyway or I'm looking to move forward with so I'm pleased that that's happened and then there are surprises and people come and wow and you didn't know they had such feelings for you or they cared you know um a friend um came and he turned up at not the jail at the uh courthouse and offered up three of his properties to help me to get bail and you just go wow I didn't know but you know so it's both sides but I don't think that's unique I think that's what happened in life when you make certain decisions some people go okay mate I support you in that and some people go based on how I feel I can't support you in that I think that's wrong and I can't be a part of that and in this case it was it was no different but I sit here and I said like I said even that experience um in the end benefits you or benefited in me because you have to look at yourself but in those moments you see everybody else as well yeah I like that method I think you know and I understand you did make a mistake understand that people can't accept that and and will turn their back but also take the positives at the true ones and the people who go you know what you fucked up but still got your back and you'll find out okay they're the ones I want in my life and not the ones that turn my back but the thing about you you understand why they do this well for me you shouldn't but because we all fuck up but do you think that who the true ones are in the darkest times I guess listen what I would say is that we're here to make our choices and I shouldn't be making your choices for you that's part of the experience and a lot of your choices that you make I'm not gonna like but that's part of the experience but I'm not supposed I'm not necessarily have to like it they're your choices to me as they are mine you know and I suppose having a space where I could examine myself and get into that point and going yeah actually I believe that that's actually what I believe how was it to adapt again to come into a bit of freedom obviously you came over when you were 10 now you're coming out after a few years being inside like was that a different kind of experience yeah it's strange to start with because I mean for instance I remember first going my first home visit and my worry was whether I'd be able to use the train why well I've been inside things have changed and I'd never been separated from my world I'd always been perhaps part of that change where you've seen it and here I was separated and things have changed and changed how so don't get me wrong I think the worry was unreasonable because everything was seamless I was also worried when I had to cross the road whether I would look because I hadn't crossed the road in six years I wonder God of course in the road am I gonna still look and you walk out and I got to the road and I instinctively looked and I went okay that's that's handy I'd work harder than that again as you walk into the middle of the road I went okay that's handy the world had changed the electronics in the world had changed I think that stuck out was when I came out obviously you're trying to put your stuff some of your stuff together so you call pension people and you call these people because you've been out of the loop and you want to know where everything where things stand and the big surprise was that before I could I remember calling my pension company and go this is Chris Lewis can you send me blah blah blah and now all of a sudden I need 24 million different IDs and I've just come out of jail my passport was being confiscated I haven't got a driver's license so it's hard work to sort all of those things out until you get to seeing that so you start with the driver's license but I need ID for my driver's license but I want it for I see and this is going around in a circle for about 18 months to sort of get your your stuff back together so yeah the world the world had changed and you slowly you realize or you have to realize quickly that now it's a world of IDs and checks after checks after checks and so forth where you could perhaps just phone up I used this phone up and go hi it's Chris can you send me this and can you send me that and and that had changed so you had to make sure that going forward because there was so much you needed to do this so much you were you you didn't have access to now you had access again but in order to access all of those services and those things you need ID you know and it's like wow and it took a while to work out a way to get ID for ID without ID you know um using using different things sometimes I even enclose the picture and go it's me but you eventually get that so yeah there's a there's a bit of an adjustment um I'm bearing in mind that was for me only four and a half years so think about those who perhaps who who are longer yeah yeah there's a little bit of fear that you ain't gonna manage but fortunately people still have one head you know I mean so yeah you know I've changed that much you understand yeah yeah so what about when you wrote your book code was out for you that was it was interesting in a number in a number of ways um one I felt that I needed to explain myself yeah um I got called to the airport I got sentenced I went to jail and I did my sentence nobody's heard from me and so I felt I had to explain myself and clearly I was in a place where I just got clearly had mocked up so just going that was wrong of me that was poor of me offering up some sort of an understanding or an excuse um of how you got there and why you did that um so that was really my purpose um behind writing it um I then did a play also and the play was kind of taking it one step further or trying to take it one step further and talking about that emotional experience so the play is a two-man play and it's essentially me talking to myself and it's in the cell and it's that conversation that essentially we've just gone through how that came about where you're going I fucked everything up I've done excuse my language sorry I've mucked everything up I've done this I've done that and then finally that part of you that's going yeah yeah yeah but rude boy you can still do yeah you're not going no I didn't you're going yeah you did yeah that's that's that but you can still do you can still do that remember when you did this remember you were the person that came from the west indies and became an england gukita so clearly there's something you got some sort of skills going on in here and you start that and the play kind of tells that story tells that journey to the point where I feel that I kind of get myself back where you're that confident person again and you're looking at in the world and then going yeah I've done that but I can still ace this test you know yeah yeah yeah but I can still ace this yeah yeah is that seeing you come out it seeing you look back in your life and obviously you've had your highs and lows like everybody like what you've achieved is was fucking unbelievable for kids obviously watching in fact where you've came from to be an england international and then obviously you've made your mistakes the lows but now you're picking things back up again like you say with the play the book where do you go now moving forward I must admit that that journey that started inside that internal journey um that's the one and I don't mean that you're not going to see me here or you're not going to see me there or you're not going to see me in some nightclub or somewhere somewhere you probably will I hope so anyway life is to be lived but overall that for me that's where that um how you become happy in this in this life is you change your perception there's too many other perceptions to change if you're looking outside there's seven other seven billion other people on the planet and I was confused with it my plan was to get them all to behave and now you know that's a really silly plan so now I'm just going to work on me mate it's so much easier and there's just there isn't the level of stretch I mean you think if you're trying to control everybody else or what they're doing how much hands on you you just everywhere it it literally sends you sends you crazy so that whole experience in jail that's the ace in the pack that it's that it's taught me that it's not so much about trying to change somebody else and it's about changing yourself and your perception now you see things that that bloke there who did that thing isn't necessarily an idiot he's on his own journey and he's making his own mistakes just as you made your mistakes and he's learning from his mistakes and so forth and why would look at it that way because it brings more ease to me because I don't get upset and I don't get angry and you're not angry at people it just it just works and also people appreciate you not screaming and shouting at them and calling them an idiot so it just makes it just makes it just makes it makes a better living so for anybody that's watching brother that's maybe um struggling maybe having those that self-doubt you had yourself down you were in prison and you push through it to then become back on the street and I'll stay in fit and healthy for anybody that's maybe having those doubts about life what advice would you have for them listen what I would say is that the world we live in you almost become worthy to doing things because you've done this because you've done that because you're a nice person you become worthy and if you don't follow those things then somehow you're not worthy and what I've discovered is that you're born worthy and that worthiness never leaves you you're a human being big man you're all human beings and you're inherently capable that's really good I was saying somebody to somebody in the gym that we're born geniuses most of the stuff that we learn we learn it in the first five years of our life we like sponges we're little geniuses and for me I had to go back to a place where I didn't get my strength from necessarily my quickie or anything like that because of course I'm a convicted criminal so I must be a bad person if you see what I mean but in truth I went back to a place where we were just human beings and we were all equal and we were all capable and built from there and I would tell anybody I don't care what you've done what you're going through your worthiness isn't in question here you were born worthy you're inherently worthy we live in a world that may suggest that you're not because you make a mistake but as you point out we all make mistakes the important thing is that we get up and dust ourselves off it doesn't matter how big the mistake I think in the play how this was put over we would have a discussion after each doing of the play and this woman this lady came at the end of on a discussion and she goes oh Chris I get it I get it she's going what you're saying is if you dig a big hole for yourself it would be wise to know that the same spade you use to dig that hole is probably in there with you to dig yourself out and I went that's pretty much the story I'm thinking we all fall we all make mistakes we all may find ourselves into a variant hole yeah but I guarantee you the same spade you use to dig it dig your yeah um to dig that hole it's available to you when you're in that hole to dig yourself out again and that'll be you I swear to God don't care who you are yeah you got that power inside of you because I never thought I had it um it was a situation I brought it out and when it came out I knew it wasn't just special to me it's in everybody and you got that people believe in yourself you know it's it starts from there you have to wherever you are believe in yourself that you can make a change that it can get better powerful brother for coming on today and telling your story lesson I thoroughly enjoyed that and I genuinely wish you all the best for your future brother big man it's been a pleasure thank you so much right wise god bless bro