 The Sheboygan Municipal Auditorium and Armory was dedicated in May, 1942, with the purpose of being an armory, a place where they stored weapons and ammunition for the Wisconsin National Guard. It had a seating capacity of approximately 3,500. It was home for the Sheboygan Redskins, Sheboygan's professional basketball team and was also home for Lakeland College. Alice Cooper played at the Armory in July of 1981. Bob hoped it would show at the Armory back in the 70s. The circus was held in the Armory. Festival of Trees and the Mung New Year are two present day events held at the Armory. And North-South basketball has been played there for many years. Our show is a tribute to the Armory and to all the players and coaches who participated in the tradition of the Armory. Hello everybody, my name is Mike Martin and joining me is Chris Wright. Chris, we have a real nice show planned for tonight. We have some special guests who might those be? Yeah, special is probably not a big enough word to use or describe these people. I know you did some work and we have Pete Barth and Dwight Pelkin from Sheboygan Press. Pete, of course, is the sports that are now Dwight Pelkin, longtime Sheboygan writer, still writes today. And we have two longtime coaches from the Sheboygan area, from Sheboygan South or, you know, what used to be central. We have a coach, John Schumann, and of course from Sheboygan North, we have Tom Desatel who's been there for a number of years as well. Tell us a little bit about our third segment. Our third segment is basically going to be a little tribute. We've done some filming and pictures and did some, basically some legwork and went over to the museum and took pictures of different situations and things throughout the last couple of weeks. And we're going to, you know, place those into our show and, you know, even when the North-South game comes up for the last time, we'll put those in as well. Okay, we're going to step out. When we come back, I'll have Dwight Pelkin and Pete Barth on the set with me. So stay tuned. We'll be right back. Eight seconds. Wainer with the basketball. Five seconds. Off the dribble. Splits to the fence. And scores with two seconds to go. The game may not be over. I think South may have gotten a time out. And it's going to take a little bit of time to clear this court. But I think there's one or two seconds left in this one. It's 74-72 right now. North leads. The pass is blocked by Suskie. And Sheboygan North hangs on to beat Sheboygan South. The final here tonight, 74-72. North the winner in overtime. Mike. Joining me on the set is Pete Barth, the present sports editor for the Sheboygan Press and longtime sports editor, 40-plus years former sports editor, Dwight Pelkin. Dwight, as you know, we're talking about the North-South games at the Armory. And of course you have a lot of experience with a lot of games being played there. As you think back over the years, how has the pace of play changed from now and way back in the 40s and 50s when you were getting your start in newspaper business? Obviously a heck of a lot. And of course I can't help thinking, but when I was in high school, and that's when they initiated the 10-second rule, which we thought was impossible, and 10 seconds mean to get the ball across. To get the ball across and also a jump ball after every basket. So we swept into the slower-phased game fairly steadily. And of course back in those days, you had more of set plays and you had a more deliberate style of play because you brought the ball up and you, okay, you had 10 seconds to make your progress. And there wasn't the pale male staple ball that you've got now. And so we just, it was a slower-paced game. You didn't score as many points. The first game that was played on the armory in 43, the score was 33 to 30. Well, nowadays that might be a half-time score, right, Pete? And you took more deliberate shots. You didn't use the two-hand, you did shoot the one. But I think you worked the ball into the center with his back to the basket a lot more, and the center would play more of a shock type of ball, maybe. Pete, do I mention something about working the ball in the middle? And I think there's been some rule changes that really have gotten us away from that. As you think about covering north and south in the armory over the last couple of years, how do you see the pace of play? Has there been much of a change over your tenure? It varies a little. We've had some relatively low-scoring games here lately in the 50s and such. But of course, you know, I don't know if we'll talk about it later, but the 96 game, the 103, 103 to 90, 102.93, I think it was, was an amazing game. But you talk about the rule change, obviously the three-pointer has been a huge impact. And Tom Desatelle's style has also been a huge impact on this series. He came in and had that style of play, and it's been an amazing. And I think one of the things that Tom has really had to fight over the years is the Dick Bennett syndrome from the, from the Green Bay Schools hasn't creeped into Sheboygan. I think south mostly over the years with Cully Heapner and John Schumann, they've, you know, maintained a pretty, well, not I want to say fast pace, but not a slow down pace either, at least in Cully's later years. Are there any players that really stand out in your mind? I can remember one guy, Kevin Colber, I think, 35 points one night. He just went off on North and it was an upset win for the South Siders. He beat North that night. Anything that you guys remember, Dwight, let's start with you again, because, you know, you can take us back a little bit farther. I remember in the Armory, Dick Schrader being on a great central team and losing because the other team, the first stringers fouled out and the subs came in and do a, they did a fantastic job and so they won. Hooks Wimmer, Sonny Krells, Huberxy, oh God, it's really hard to, it's really hard to take back. It's one of the ones that I remember from when I was in high school, back in the early 60s, they had a team that went to state and the core of the team were juniors and Johnson Ellis and Gary Campman and Tony Kabird were on that team and they had Frank Rumpkes and I think it was, Kroos was a fifth guy, a starter, but you know, you figure coming back, those guys are really going to be tough, but South struggled when those guys are seniors, you know, the next year, but I know those are some really great players too. Pete, you know, as you think about over the years, you know, anybody that stands out in your mind? The ones that stand out, we were talking about that high-scoring game was the two Couts or Twins, you know, that night, if you remember those two. And they're presently coaching itself. You know, I don't know why, and they were on the losing team that night, but I just have this vision of those guys and how hard they played that night on both sides of the floor. It was really unbelievable to see a game of that, it was an epic game and it was just a great game and I remember those two, you know, sweat just, it's always hot in there, as you know. By the end of the night, these kids are just, that's what the jerseys are just soaked through. I can remember, I think I was a fan at the game that one night, or maybe I was up on the stage announcing, but they actually had to stop the game for a time and try to get the humidity out, because the floor was glossing over with dampness, you know, it's been pretty dangerous. They even last year, Kyle Tetschlage and those guys were just soaked, you know, it was just, I think the first or second game last year, so maybe it was the second game. Yeah, I think it was the second one. It was just unbelievably humid and, you know, everyone was sweating and it was, it's a great event. Take us back to some of the coaches, Dwight, that you remember from early on. I mentioned Cully Heedner before. You might be able to take us back even prior to Cully Heedner. Cully was the head coach at Central and South for just over 20 years, I believe. Oh, God, yes. Cully was the first one when I came and he was there until he, I think he was playing poker and just died, you know. One of those, wait, what a way to go, I guess, that's what you'd say. But it was a friendly atmosphere then because you could go to the gym and on those days, hey, we didn't have girls to cover. So we could concentrate on the boys and we'd stop in at the practices and, hey, there'd be an extra ball around, you could take your shots on one of the side rims and so on and Cully would be there and he'd, he'd take his shots to it and he wasn't directly practicing. And it was a very friendly, casual atmosphere and you got to know the kids pretty well because they'd fire a ball back at you if you missed and hit the hoop. And after Cully, I think the atmosphere sort of changed gradually because you didn't have that close relationship. You know, we'd go on bus trips with them occasionally and maybe stop at Gamak's or Gamak's. Do you remember, did you ever get to do any of that, Pete, travel with the team? I think some of that as times have changed, you know. Time in the media, the media has changed. You try to have that separation, so to speak and not that that's a good thing or a bad thing but I just think that's changed a little bit in the industry in general. I know one of the things in calling in games and things to the press, you know, maybe doing a little league game, well, you know, we just can't cover all that. There's so much to cover now versus, you know, it wasn't quite as extensive. We're at easy, relatively speaking, man. You didn't have quite the extended career yet as Dwight but you've been through the Dessau years and those have been pretty productive for the Northside. Sure, and I did see Bob Ruskowski's second stint. Obviously a great coach, you know. He was only there for a few years in that second stint but yet he made a huge difference and really brought that program up. And, you know, Dan Koopman came along and did not have a lot of success against Tom although he did, you know, good for him, went out with a bang and got a win against him last year and his last year but the amazing thing about this series in the Armory is that the average margin of a victory is a point. I think it's something like 57.3 to 56.2. All wins considered and that just shows that really it truly is that the oldest cliche in the book, throw the records out. I mean, we hate to use it, we hate to say it because it's such a cliche but, you know, there have been nights, you know, especially in the leaner years for South where I've been up there thinking, man, North is gonna win this game by 35, you know. And, you know, wouldn't you know it? You know, South finds a way and it may be ugly, it may be, yeah, grind it out, you know, and it becomes a great game and it almost always is. One of the advent, go ahead Dwight, I'm sorry. It's like that first game in 43. They were both up there fighting for their championship and I think Central was really favored but North won by three. One thing that we've seen change over the years is the advent of girls basketball and that entering into the fray in terms of North-South armory games. Pete, how has that changed in terms of press coverage and that sort of thing? It's not too bad for us because we cover them separately, you know. I'll have a guy who will go do the girls game, come back to the office and then I'll do the boys game usually. So it's not a big deal. I think it's a neat thing, you know, as the father of a nine-year-old daughter who loves basketball, I think it's great that these girls over the last decade or so have gotten to experience that, the thrill of this whole event. We need to wrap up our interview but I wanted to ask you guys one more question and that is Dwight and Pete, as we closed down the armory in the North-South games in the armory, what are your views on that? You know, how do you think is it gonna be, how do you think it's going to be different? Any feelings on this last game coming up February 11th? It'll be very interesting from the standpoint of the fans, I think, on the parking aspect for one thing and the seating obviously, they're gonna have one side for one and one side for the other. Unfortunately, it will give the home team a somewhat advantage, I think, when you're playing on your home floor, that should mean a few points, at least in theory, and it'll be very interesting how that works out, where the armory, at least, as you say, the point spread was practically zero. Now it's going to be a little difficult. You know your guys are at home and you know you're expected to win if you're similar records. Pete? I actually think that it's kind of sad, to be honest. I think that now it's just gonna be another thing. It's gonna be like, Appleton East against Appleton West, or Milwaukee Vincent against Milwaukee K.L.B. It won't have the uniqueness. I came here from Florida and to me, this is one of the most unique things I've ever seen. You walk into the place, you see the banners on the walls, you see the scorekeepers up on the stage. It's such an unbelievably unique. It's like you're back in 1952 or something, you know? And I think there's something sad about that, that now it's just gonna be another game and another fancy new gymnasium. Sort of, in a sense, sort of like playing in Madison for the WIA championship, you're at least on a neutral floor. And now that neutral floor is taken away. And I don't know. Guys, I want to thank you for your perspective on this and thanks for coming in. It was a great interview and it was really great talking to you guys. When we come back, Chris Wright will be interviewing Tom DeSatell and John Schumann. So stay tuned, we'll be right back. Ruby shot is no good. South chases it down. Throws it out. It's gonna win. South a winner, 51 to 48. Pandemonium at the Armory. Welcome back, everybody. It's a great privilege to have the two coaches I'm about to talk to. Long time coach, John Schumann and Tom DeSatell. Coach, how long did you do things itself? I started in 1964 and then I finished in 1981. So I ended up with about 17 years, but I coached elsewhere. I coached two years in Minnesota and then I coached 11 years at East Troy. So I ended up with 30 years of basketball. So. Coach yourself? I was a JV coach for eight years at Milwaukee at Milwaukee Madison and came to Sheboygan North as a teacher in 1977, 78 for the school year there. And that was my first experience with North South basketball. And I'm still on my feet and coaching at North. So I've been there for a few years. What made the Armory special to you two gentlemen? Well, it was a kind of a college court and we enjoyed, I enjoyed it, going down and having the kids play because it was a little bit bigger and more like a college effect. We used to scrimmage years ago when WIA allowed us to go over to the center and scrimmage against them and that gave us a bigger court. So it was kind of nice and a good treat to go down there and play. Coach? I think after a few years of North South basketball, the thing that I remember best was when you'd go to a wedding or go to a funeral or go to any social gathering, North South always came up in Sheboygan and coached to remember that when this happened and this happened, it seems like everybody had memories of the Armory, many of which I've forgotten because of the many games there. So you could tell it was right at the top of their minds as far as their high school experiences were concerned. Anything besides about the length of the floor that made the building kind of special? Well, the thing that was special was that they had the stage there, which was very close. And of course, the other end was a little bit more room behind the basket, but I don't know if you people know Walt Anderson, but he used to coach here for many years. Walt suggested years before this that the baskets should be put in at least another five feet on either end. That would have gave you much more running room on either side, but that was one thing that was kind of different. It was really, really close and it was hard for the officials to call plays on the stage end because they couldn't get a good view. So. Of course, one scoreboard made for the fact that do you want to see the scoreboard? For the second half, or do you want to see the stage for the first half for whatever half you chose? So that was an experience too. The kids had to run down the sideline and probably jump up on the stage, at least for a seat until they could come into the game. Otherwise it would appear that there's an extra person on the court. And of course the cheerleaders wanting to do their thing as cheerleaders always have done are kind of in the way of things because they're just about on the court. And John and I practically fell out of our seats in the games we coached, trying to get a view of what went on at the other end because of the excitement of the cheerleaders too. And the closeness of the students and the parents? Yeah, well, for more I said, I couldn't see down the other end. You know, it was a little difficult. If the ball went out one side or the other, you were in a little trouble, but it was difficult being on one end of the court. But up until 10 years ago, coaches had to seat belt room, they had to sit out. So John and I were sitting down and practically leaning forward to do anything we could to see what went on. We're gonna kind of open this up a little bit. Any special games or moments or special player situations that took place that you can think of from all these years? Well, Tom and I had some good ball games together, but I can remember a way back when that we had a good ball game going and with less than a minute left, Pete Fisher had two free throws coming and he made the first and after the second one, the referee gave him the ball, then all of a sudden he took it away and he went over in front of the North crowd and told him to keep quiet and calm him down. And I could have just about killed him because, hey, you don't take the ball away from a ball player just when he's ready to shoot. Oh boy, I thought, oh, here we go. But Pete made it anyway, so fortunately we won the game but boy, to me that was a bad move on the officials part but that's one thing I do remember pretty much. I think 1977, my first year at North, my first experience against Coach Schumann. In fact, I talked to Coach Schumann when I got the job and he said, well, you know, North-South games are played at the Armory and I didn't think much of it until that game when first time out, I'm shouting and I don't see any response on the faces of our players. I don't think they could hear what I said which was probably better for them. First game I ever coached against Coach Schumann, North-South game went and over time we lost 75-71. I had to look that up, I didn't remember that but five of our players followed out. Of those five players, one was Scott Glazer who would be valedictorian and went to Notre Dame and is now an orthopedic in town. The other captain I had was Fred Forsterling and Fred's now the JV girls coach at North and a third, Billy Free, kind of ties things together because his son Nolan, now in the JV game and keep in mind that the JV games are played at the Armory as well, he had a better than a half court shot to send the game into the first of three over times and I think all of the participants in those games whether that be JV and some of the teachers itself played only JV basketball for Coach Schumann, he recognized talent I think and I can think of a couple of those teachers and that's what they said as well but they remember the North-South experience JV or varsity. Coach, anything you can share about like practices or pre-game things or post-game situation that kind of stands out a little bit? We mean other than somebody bringing a pig in the gym or a chicken that used to happen years ago. Well, that's unique. If we should say anything about that or not. I know there's in tennis balls thrown back and forth and different things. Or pennies maybe but generally speaking, I think it was a good thing for the kids but I don't know, there were a lot of good things about the army that were really nice that I think everybody should enjoy. I'll tell you, I keep telling people that we're gonna have these magnificent North-South gyms and I think John and I would have been pleased to experience those for our teaching careers but I think the interest in North-South basketball is gonna go down as a result. These games were special, they're special to the people in the community. They can broadcast them live and still have them sold out and boy, the memories. Our first, the second game my first year there, the first one wasn't so good because we lost to Coach Schumann but the second one started with five technical fouls on South High School and it was because the numbers were wrong in the book and we wound up winning the game and that's not the way to start a basketball game. I don't know whose fault it was and it was kind of embarrassing but that's the way the rules went and on and on through history go these North-South games. We used to practice at South with very dim lights because it was not as bright in the army so when we practiced we just had, we turned the lights way down low. Now Coach, you have the kids kind of warm up at the, why I don't know how many people are familiar with that but how did that get started? Oh, one of my first years there, I noticed that the kids were reading the signs and doing everything but watch the JV game which I wanted them to watch. So we got them out of there and said, hey, look, you'll see the excitement. If you want to go in there early, that's fine but we'll meet at the Y. The locker rooms are too small to get dressed anyway so let's put on our gear there, we'll put our jackets on and jog it over to the armory and be there for the start of the game and they always got nervous or what happens if they start? I said they can't start without us so we'll go like that. Our locker room was a little smaller than Salts and that was part of the issue as well. Any final thoughts or things when they dim the lights for the last time, Coach? Well, I think it's gonna be a lot of good memories. I think in this situation now you gotta move on and maybe it's a thing of the past but there's gonna be a lot of good memories for some of the people that played down there especially because it was quite an honor, I think. Coach? Well, I think the same. I think the memories will linger well beyond the advent of these new field houses that's for sure. Well, thanks so much gentlemen for coming in. It's a real pleasure. When we return, we'll have a video tribute to the Armory and some final comments. Under 10 now, Donovan on a spin move, jump shot, no good, touch lock with the rebound, he's got it, kicks it up, Trevor Groobie, got it! Not by Donovan, as often after the buzzer and North wins it. Welcome back everybody. Chris, let's talk a little bit about why the change in the Armory now. We know that February 11th is supposed to be the last North South game held there. What transpired to cause this change? Well, for a number of years there's been discussion of the Armory basically shutting down and the city was talking about different scenarios, what's gonna happen to the basketball games along with all the events that take place there and with the new gyms and things taking place in North and South, eventually it's gonna move there but as we know there's talk about maybe changing what the Armory's gonna actually have. Maybe there's something with NASA or something gonna take place or maybe they're completely gonna take it down or who really knows what's gonna take place there but the schools had to make a decision and choice and I don't know if people realize this but the city or the school district has to rent the Armory for that day and it's about, I would say, I heard it's like $1,500 or something for each time that that takes place and so with that we have to have a new beginning as they say. What do you think is gonna be the mood of the public once the Armory games are not played there, they're played at the field houses at the individual schools? Well I echo Coach Thomas to tell I don't think it's ever gonna be the same. I just think that the confinement of the students real close to the floor and the parents and things like that is just never gonna be the same and I know we've talked about this for a number of years now as we knew this was coming to an end that I really enjoy the Armory and all the experiences and I know it sounds corny but I really believe there's been a lot of young men and women who have played there and I think it's gonna be a tough night and I think it's gonna be a tough night for us and a lot of people who's been in Sheboygan for so many years and we're talking parents and grandchildren. We've talked to the coaches, they said yeah, maybe there was a father that went to North and a mother that went to South and then they had children and different things and now with us having live TV there, it's just brought a new aspect of the North-South game. It goes homes and taverns and bars and restaurants all over Sheboygan. It's been really a neat experience. I know for me it started back when I was a kid and I was kind of a gym rat and I can remember being at North-South basketball games when I was a youngster, transpired over to being a player for Sheboygan North and playing in a number of games as a JV player and as a varsity player. Then helping coach Pete Peterson in the early 90s, coach his basketball team and having a couple games down at the Armory and then it culminates now as being a broadcaster and doing games on that level of participation in Armory so I've gone through a lot of different levels of participation in the Armory and personally I know I'm gonna miss it. It's been a part of my life that I enjoy looking back on and it'll be missed. Any closing comments, Chris? No, I wore black for a reason or we're gonna be shutting it down in a couple hours or a couple days and it'll be truly missed. We wanna thank you all for watching. It was a great joy doing this, Joe and we wanna thank the crew for the great job they did. Stay tuned, we have some basketball coming up after this and thanks for watching and we'll see you down the road. I think Gary might have the advantage. He's got height and good jumping ability, he controls the tap.