 Okay, wonderful. One of my few talents, so I can press a record button. Shall we, shall we get going? Go ahead. Oh, your head's on, the stage is yours today. You're the big man in here. So, big man on campus for a few seconds. Okay, so welcome to the 12th of January 2023, Hyperledger Supply Chain and Trade Finance, Special Interest Group. Sorry, we got going a little bit late here with a little mix up for once it wasn't us. So, we'll get that straightened out for the next time we have a session here. Thanks for joining here either live or when listening to the recording here. What we thought we'd do today between myself, Eric, Andrea, we've talked a couple of times over the holidays. Leisha, when she was able to join us here in a second. We put out a survey, what was it? Right before Christmas, I believe, to try to gain some input from folks on where we should go. If you remember back in, when was it? I guess early December, we had talked about trying to get some ideas of where we could add value beyond webinars in the new year. And there were some thoughts around use cases or some thoughts around governance or some thoughts around, what was the last one, Eric? Oh, beautifully you're going right where I'm going to throw it to you, man. That's great. So anyways, we had this little survey, Eric put it together here using fancy Zoho technology and no blockchain in there, Eric. You're on mute. You're on mute, Eric. You're really on mute. It's going to be hard to throw it to you. All right, Eric. Off at two screens, I was looking for the unmute button on both. We're all getting rock and roll in here at the beginning of the year here, getting our brain going, everything. So Eric, you want to take us through, oh, we got 17 answered now? 18. 18, okay, that's good. So just in the interest of full disclosure here, we had a goal of, we were talking 25, 40, but the reality is we wanted to have enough responses so that it was something that was relevant as opposed to we got three people responding. And then just to kind of give you numbers, we got 107 people that are on the SIG mailing list. Obviously we want to get more people and we put it also out on LinkedIn. I think Andrea, you did that a couple of days ago because we got a bigger audience. I don't know how big is the audience on LinkedIn, Andrea? A few hundred, right? Oh, it's 3,500. It's something like very small or less. Oh, geez. Yeah, it's quite a lot. That sounds like a lot of people, man, 3,000. So hopefully we can- Don't tell me. Let's be my part-time job for the last two years to build this. There you go. There you go. And that is good. So we have a lot of people, especially now that we're getting it out, hopefully we'll get some more responses on this. Eric, you want to take us through what we have so far here and I don't know if we can make some final determinations today, but let's take this and then I guess what makes sense to me, Eric and Andrea, let's go around the horn and see what people's thoughts are from that. What do we take away from it? Absolutely, let's go with that. Eric, you want to share the results with us so far? Yeah, so on screen are the results of this survey that we put out a bit before the holidays and for those who did submit an answer, thank you very much for your input. It is all about to the community, right? And so that's what we wanted to do, is reach out to the community to see what the community wanted us as the SIG leadership, I guess you want to call us or the SIG a bunch of clowns here to work on and to focus on moving forward. So again, yeah, we did get a bit of answers and we threw out a few examples or a few suggestions, but not limited to. First one was to again, look at what use cases were out there. So either working on a specific use case or surveying the use cases. So what are people working on? Is it Agri? Is it traceability? Is it trade finance? Is it something else? Second suggestion that we gave was governance. Best practices. I know Tom is very much involved in that. And with the bad news about trade lens, and sorry if I'm throwing anybody on the bus here, but the bad news that trade lens was closing down, we wanted to look at governance. It was that, was it a governance issue? What are people looking at at in the governance sphere of interest out there? And the third was standards. A lot of people are working on a whole bunch of different standards. I'm involved in ISO, Tom's involved in IEEE. You have the SCA, you have GSBN that has their stuff. You have a whole bunch of different people working on a whole bunch of different standards. So how do you reconcile all of those standards as it relates to supply chain and blockchain? So that being said, most people, and yes, you could vote on many different, or you could give many different answers, which explains these numbers here, not equaling 18, but most people want to work with 65% on governance. The other one, second place is use cases, standards, and we had a couple of others, which I can bring up on screen here, emissions, which is something that we have talked about in past for sure. Business process mapping, I think is another cool one. And third, let's create a use case which connects the movement of goods and services with the movements of money in supply chain. Very interesting concept for sure. So that being said, we're still open to suggestions, open to more answers. We'll keep the survey open maybe a couple of weeks, Tom, still, until our next internal meeting. What do you think? Yeah, I think if we got 3,000 people, we can drive it out a little bit stronger on LinkedIn, hopefully. Maybe if we got 3,000, I think getting 100 responses would actually be a reasonable goal. That feels to me, I'm open to other people, but I'm glad we almost got 20. Let's go to 100 and let's see what we get. Yeah, that should be the good percentage. Let's share, let's propose also our own profiles to drive, you say, people towards this. It's going to be a good strategy. Good. Then, yes, we have 3,459 followers exactly. Does that mean everybody goes on LinkedIn every day like us? Probably not. Me, their brains are not back from holidays yet? Probably so. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, but let's push it out on the email. Let's push it out on LinkedIn maybe a couple more times. That's kind of what I'm thinking here. That sounds good. What about from other folks that are on here? Anything surprise you, not surprise you, interested in your opinions out there? Sophie, Ion, Jeff at the Federal Reserve, who can't show himself, etc. Yeah, that's right. I did have a question though on some of the projects. Are you looking for corporate partners in this? Is that a use case where you're trying to find a company that would become a corporate partner to demonstrate a use case? In actually any of these, there could be a corporate partner, whether that's Hyperledger or outside of the Hyperledger community. That would help us do this. I guess trade finance would be possibly maybe not a development bank, but an NGO or somebody. How does that? Oh, I would rather say development bank, Jeff, to be honest. We should be seeking for the NGOs. That sounds more supply chain stuff. But if you want to glance at some merely financial stuff, development banks, they're the good fit. I think if you're in Washington DC, that could be the place. That's what a world bank is. It's many more institutions. And when we spoke with Alfonso, if you remember guys, by the way, in November, he mentioned that we should be sticking to the projects led by all those entities driven by world banks and development banks because they're a major thing in South America, in Africa, in core areas, what we would love to focus on. And Elthoraw, Jeff, along that line, this is Tom Klein. So as Eric mentioned, I'm very involved in governance. I've been a very active member of the IEEE. P2145 Blockchain Governance Standard Committee. And we've come out. We've finished up our initial set of work and we're going through now the approval process with inside of IEEE. So we got a document that's pretty much ready to go here. So we're happy with that portion. Now, I was just on a call on Tuesday. We're looking, OK, where can we apply this and confirm that it actually has some validity? There's a couple of people that are on the committee, a professor from Tuskegee Institute and a guy who has a lot of experience with drug supply chains over in Basel. The three of us, we worked on a reverse logistics use case that we dreamed up, basically, around t-shirts. And how do you return t-shirts? They ended up, basically, in landfills. And we time boxed it. We didn't build it out a whole way. But basically, build out, take to the use case and try to apply blockchain governance, our standard to it. Now, we also would like to do that to examples where blockchain governance maybe was already done. It could be the trade lens example as something the counterfactual that didn't quite work out for whatever reason, or it's ASX or whatever out there, or ones that actually didn't work out. So the group at IEEE, we were on a call on Tuesday. I mentioned that we're looking for, you know, governance is one of the things that may be of interest. And so the offer from that group at IEEE is to work together with us if we choose governance to find a corporate member like you're saying, Jeff, or a couple of corporate that have blockchain instances and build it out. Or we could even take it. So that's one path. The other path is if there's some use case that we believe will really bring this forward, then reverse logistic. We just picked that one as something we hadn't seen anybody do anything on. Or it could be a trade finance thing, whatever's out there. Right? So hopefully, does that make sense, Jeff? Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. OK. Good information. Thanks. Good. And I guess I'll add one other thing here. Unfortunately, enterprise blockchain, the words haven't been very positive in the media recently. Every day I get a new one in my Google alert that I have set for a blockchain about, hey, trade lens didn't happen. Everyone's kind of forgotten about weed out trade, et cetera. There's still positive things going out there. We just got to ferret it out. And I'll tell you on the governance thing, the biggest thing we can figure out or we could bring to the table is how does governance be a catalyst? Because governance and Sophia, you might be able to say this or maybe not. Governance is usually after the fact, as opposed to how do you use it to actually get a blockchain project going there. So that's just insight from the governance work that I've done so far. So let me shut up and see who else wants to share their thoughts. Ayan, would you like to share your thoughts on what you see here up on the screen? Yeah, oh, yes. But when you have opened the other, show the three responses, I have noticed my, I remember the my responses. And that is the last one. Let's create the use cases between the movement of the goods and the services with the movement of the money. That is the my responses indeed. And that is quite important when I think of the anti-ant world. And we need to make a strict connection with the existing world and with the enterprise solution. And that is the crucial point in which, in my mind, I'm trying to solve indeed. That's why I'm always looking for the best user experiences. But at the end, each solutions should depend on the movement of the money. If we do not touch that concept, I cannot move myself further to create the further use cases for myself indeed. That's why it's quite important for me. And one other point which I would like to raise that, as far as I know that SAP is already a partner of the Linux Foundation. And I wish to hold and listen their supply chain solutions based on, as far as I know, Hyperledger SAP Ariba. I guess it is the supply chain solution of the SAP. And we wish to, I wish to personally learn what that SAP would bring, more idea, more practical things in our SIG. That's why in the recent days, I'm following up the Taulia, which is the US company owned by the SAP. And they are making the good things regarding invoice financing, discountable financing. And that's why I'm trying to understand today's world on the base of the enterprise solution of the Hyperledger. Just trying to make a kind of the bridges between the export and the new world indeed. But as far as I understand, depending on my experience that we will still rely on our today's world's tools for the coming periods. That's why we are in between the two periods. But still we need to make some kind of the constant bridges between these two worlds. I'm not sure whether which I have expressed myself or not. But I do totally support the supply chain and the trade finance special interest group from Istanbul, Turkey. And I do love you guys. Thank you for all. Thanks, Ayan. So my takeaway from that is if we do go down the use case path, try to have something that has both flavors, the supply chain, actually moving the physical goods as well as the money that gets moved with it. All right, thank you. Right, OK, good. Let's see, who else is out here? Jean, you're welcome to join. Share your thoughts if you'd like. Maybe introduce yourself. I just very, only a minute ago joined. You hear me? We can hear you, yes. OK, that's good. Yes, a brief introduction of myself. My background is, sorry, I'll show the video as well. Sorry, you can see me. Brief introduction, my background is 30 years in trade finance, both in product sales and in covering from a bank perspective. I worked for ING for 30 years each time in trade finance roles and client coverage roles. I left the organization after a joyful career. And I'm now looking around again for becoming active in the trade finance domain. And I'm looking for opportunities. And what I tried to do, and what I'm very fond of, with thanks to Franchino, is to stay a bit in touch with the developments, especially on the depreciation and on the compliance side, because that is really going with an incredible speed. I left ING two and a half years ago. So that's my background. I follow you on LinkedIn. And I tried to access also the meetings from time to time. But that's where I stand for the moment. So I was interested to learn from you what this is all about. On trade finance in brief, that was both the open account and the traditional trade. So what I did. Good. Thanks, Gene, for sharing a little bit of your background. And great to meet you. And hopefully, the rest of the year here, you can join us. And as we figure out where we're going to add some value out of all this. Two seeds. Thank you. Good. Sophia, do you have any thoughts that you want to share here? And then we'll go to Michael. And then we'll go to Jeff. How's that? Yeah, sure. I mean, personally, I'm very interested in use cases. What's going on around the industry? I mean, there's plenty going on, but there's not enough talk about it, in my opinion. And just hearing the challenges that organizations are going through with making blockchain systems a reality with really implementing the technology into their solutions regardless of the application. I'd love to find out some more. Just know what's going on across the industry. Good. Good. I think a lot of people would like to know what's going on. It feels a little doom and gloom right now, but that don't think that's quite, it's not total reality. It's just a moment of time there. For sure. And one thing that's big, I guess, right now is just, and it probably always has been, but blockchain versus legacy systems. I mean, it's, blockchain is being constantly shut down at the moment, and that's because, well, people are talking about blockchain specifically being the problem. I don't think it is that. So, yeah, almost proving the concept of blockchain, of proving why blockchain versus other technologies. I mean, I so strongly believe in it, and I'm sure everyone on this call does as well, but the industry doesn't, or even not just our industry everywhere. Everything I see is just, well, why blockchain? Blockchain is the reason for the failure of many, many stories we've seen. It's an easy article to write if you're a journalist, that's for sure. Yeah. Out there. Yeah. But that's pretty much wrong. I mean, yeah. One thing I've been trying to organize is a workshop on EDI versus blockchain, right? What are the costs? What are the processes? What's the speed really drilling down into that question? So maybe that's something we can look at too. Yeah, definitely. Especially because I don't know if many of us are very technical. I mean, I'm not, and I only really found out what EDI and API were like in the past year. And actually that's quite important when we're talking about blockchain because we're trying to connect systems. Yeah, right. Interestingly enough, probably two years ago was right after I started joining this crowd and got involved. We did a EDI and blockchain session. We had a couple of companies that had done some work in that area on it. And maybe what I'll do is I'll put that link if it's still out there. I'll put it in the Wiki for people to look at. And then maybe we could have an updated session on that. I kind of like that idea, Eric and Sophia. Yeah, cool. Thank you. Okay, let me make sure I got my to-do here so I don't forget about it, EDI session. You're being recorded, so you're on the hook, man. Oh no, oh no. One of our thoughts here, interesting to say, Sophia about blockchain and how to get started and everything, that's one of the things that really got me going in governance. Cause I'm like, okay, why aren't these projects taken off as quickly and as easily, probably easily is probably more part of it as they should. And the conclusion I came to at the time and what got me involved with governance is that all the governance, how do you work together? There wasn't a good process to do that. I was kind of, hey, let's get together in a room and let's figure out if we can do something here. And it felt like putting some structure around how do you get started would be very effective and helpful to maybe not have, let's take ASX and Sophia from ASX is on the call here, Australian Sock Exchange, they started changing out there. They said, hey, we're gonna use blockchain and we're gonna do settlement and clearing system, new one. And when people figured out what was gonna happen and they might lose revenue, et cetera, et cetera, all of a sudden, all the people come out of the woodwork and say, no, you shouldn't be doing this. And ultimately the project died just to hear at the end of the year. So an example of that they had involved people earlier, they may not have had quite the same amount of knives out for themselves as they went along. I'm sure they've made some mistakes like every project does along the way, but just to back to my catalyst statement why governance I got involved in that. So let's go on here. Who did I say next? I think I said Michael next. I think you did as well. Ready to roll in. If you look up. Where's my Georgia shirt? Oh, geez, that was a beat down on Monday. It was indeed, yeah. So if you, Eric, can you scroll up just a little bit on your screen there? So if you look at this, Eric or Michael close to his heart there where it says ISO 8,119 for a transportation unit ID, Michael, that's his life there. So Michael, I just wanted to call out so that you know what Michael is interested in and you can contact him afterwards, but also Michael will let you share based on what you see here on the projects and what we're talking about here. Well, I would wanna drive one thing to ground on the question you asked and I didn't hear an answer to. I would just be curious how many people on the phone are technical? I am Jeff. So you encoded black chains, Ethereum is in solidity. So yeah, I know the technical aspects of black chain, but even before I get to it, I'm sure time probably knows a lot of black chain projects. The failure, I don't know if it's technology or if it's politics. Politics should be tough on a black chain especially the permission ones. Right, that's actually the point I was gonna go towards is I'm a big believer in the governance side also, Tom. I actually met with a lady named Dr. Denise McCurdy who now works for Gartner and she introduced me to a collaborative blockchain governance model from Ansel and Gash. And the Ansel and Gash research was introduced to me at the same time as Denise was introduced to me as just getting her doctorate degree on blockchain governance, the first one in the country. And Dr. Blockchain, a guy named John Greaves, introduced me to Denise and asked me to be able to meet with her and interview her and I brought her in as a consultant to work with DFM Data Corp about two years ago. And we baked into a application, the collaborative governance model where votes and working groups and steering committees are built inside of a platform as a service. And we basically built it as a new Bantu instance that allows for deployment in a cloud environment of any flavor and can basically flow connections of data, of hashes, of what we call TUIDs, those transport unit identifiers amongst the parties that have deployed one of these networked solutions. And it's very much like Hyperledger and Blockchain, but it doesn't necessarily have where everybody stores a copy of the full set of the data because that's one of the concerns in this space for everybody to be able to do. You really need a trusted utility that is a governing partner that can sit in the middle of this and it can't be them. It has to be them managing the group of members like a pipeline for the gas companies. They all share the ownership of it because of the fact that they're all pumping the same thing through it. And how many gallons of it you got is how many gallons you got, but they share the expense and forming that sort of an entity that can be owned by the industry that has a project plan that identifies if the industry participants are engaged, invested and bought in, that's what it's gonna take for projects in blockchain to be successful. I mean, one of my first project management books was the Harvard Business School managing projects big and small. And it's a 40 page book, but it's a reference manual of if you don't do the homework and identify who the champions of the project are and who the stakeholders of the project are and what the defined outcomes of the project are, then it's difficult to be able to build feedback loops that are meaningful. And I think in today's world, we really need to get to the human experience of being able to have a social, I can update the information when it's convenient for me to be able to do in a platform, but that my voice is also heard and my confidential information is protected and there needs to be a buffer kind of on both sides. So just one last minute and then I'll kind of shut up and open for feedback, but the piece that we built with this Ubuntu environment we called the anonymizer because it has a translation layer that basically allows for the governance to establish what the language for the canonical is and then the parties to be able to just write an interface to that canonical and from that canonical and not have to really put all of their data anyplace just simply to be able to label it in a consistent way so that from the bill of lading from the purchase order we can extract the unique identifiers if we all look at the same pieces of information and organize it the same way. And that's the standard that I've been working on with ISO. So, Michael, out of the three things, Eric, if you could scroll up real fast there. I don't know if you voted yet here. Where would you say you think we could make the most difference in driving forward the value of blockchain and supply chain and trade finance? So I already responded. I actually think why I was responding one because the moment that I saw it, I responded to it. Okay, we'll give you pride a place then. You guys are really sniffing around the right things. There's, you're looking for how to establish what a meaningful project is to be able to do and that requires the governance and the use cases and the governance and the use cases are where the foundation for project successes take place. So those were the two places that I voted on. I think they're the things that unlock the opportunities. I'll share with you that before I ever started DFM DataCorp, I actually started a company called Block Knowhow. And Block Knowhow was working with Hyperledger 1.1 and then 1.2 and then 1.3 and 1.4. And I built a deployment system where I've deployed over 10,000 Hyperledger solutions in testing because we built an instrument that allowed people to just go in and basically pick the number of nodes, identify which ones are related to each others and identify and launch. And it actually went to AWS and launched the machines and pushed them up into the cloud and we can turn them back off. And it was a very early test of Hyperledger 4 but when Hyperledger jumped to 2.0 from 1.4, it was a disconnect. And my team kind of separated from that work. So I got a little frustrated with the Hyperledger side but have always stayed engaged with, it's a cycle. You learn and sometimes the plane crashes and you got to put the pieces back together and take off again. Well, let's see where we can fly this year. So Michael, I just have just a question. When you put all those test systems out there by default, what was the consensus mechanism that you plugged in? So I had a group called Kilroy Blockchain that worked with a consent model. And the consent model is each of the users of the community saying the rules are good enough, my voice has been heard. Okay. So that was not an issue. I mean, those with any of the partners you had looking at those test cases, okay. Yeah. Yeah, there were lots of, I mean, again, what we're talking about is rules and identities. And I mean, the pointers of moving the full packets of information where big believers in off-chain data storing in secure locations where the only people that need it. Yeah, it's just, I mean, why are we pushing all of this around everywhere? We need pointers. And the pointers have to be established in a meaningful way. And just because you're asking, Jeff, I'll share that the TUI standard is made up of several other standards. So like the ISO time and date stamp is 8601. And if we concatenate the ISO 8601 standard next to the natural location identifier, which is ISO 8000-118 for the origin and for the destination and use a company identifier, which is ISO 8000-116, the ALEI, you can add a PO number to that and have a globally unique identifier for every single shipment on the planet, where you basically just say, here's the recipe to be able to make a TUID. We all have the same information for it. We just don't have a standard way to format it so that it's in a sequence that everybody who knows what the sequence is can say, well, that's the origin, that's the destination, that's the status, and this is who it's assigned to. But we've never really defined that and that's what we have been working on on the ISO 8000 side. Thanks, Michael. Very aligned with what you guys are doing. And if I can support with technology and experience and, again, use cases, governance, I'm in, you'll get my attention in my time. Good. Jeff, you wanna share some thoughts which you've heard a lot of different thoughts from folks on the line here. We welcome you. Jeff, maybe you could introduce yourself a little bit. Okay. So I'm actually located in Chicago. So I'm in the federal area of Chicago, pinch, at DC. So I worked in the oil industry for decades, also all aspects of it. And so I was there a long, long time with a very big, one of the big majors, the giant majors. And so my last 20 some years there was all on IT. But I did send me back to school to get an IT degree. But probably the last five, six years we started looking at blockchains. And so the blockchains were focused on really what kind of, this was a use case around material movement globally. And so that is a very complex part of the oil drilling business when you're talking offshore, when you're moving parts, source parts around the world. We looked at hyperlensure because of the chain code inside it, but some government rules in there around imports and exports, very tough to do when you're putting up a $10 billion offshore wealth, somewhere let's say Angola. They have strict local source rules, but they may not have the quality that you need also. You move something over there and they find out that one of the pieces of electrical wire was made in North Korea and that's on that banned export list. And so we're trying to do that on chain code. The problem that we ran into was it got too complex, too fast. And so we never even got down to how to do consensus among different parties, governments, suppliers in the oil companies. And so that's my background all in that. Again, I've coded up Ethereum using solidity. I just don't find blockchain really, don't laugh when I say this, but I don't think technically it's that complex. I don't know, the crypto piece of it I get, but when you have permission and the block chains where crypto doesn't come into play, I don't understand the fretting around it or people staring away from being scared. I mean, you put up a traditional database, I find that much more complex than putting up a blockchain, but so being. Yeah, I just think blockchain is still an elixir for a lot of people I was offered less than a year ago to be the NFL's blockchain strategy developer working with the president of the NFL. The NFL is not a big organization that based in New York, but they still have an issue. They had a consulting firm that didn't know there's a blockchain consulting firm, you may laugh at this, they didn't know anything about blockchain. It's just been very bizarre. And their issue with again is you got this NFL central office, which is a licensing group, then you got 32 teams out there who have their own ideas around what their blockchain should look like, because again, as you probably know, that space NFTs are huge and billions can be made on NFTs, but you need a blockchain solution to manage an NFT. So the NBA is very far ahead and NFL is still under a lot of heat because they don't have NFTs on the tickets and things of that nature. So they were asking me to come in and be their blockchain strategist. So I worked there for three days and quit because the politics were enormous. Should we, okay, you're going to explain to us inquiring minds want to know. Well, you know, I don't want to work that many hours first of all, again, I laughed. And so I don't need that job. I don't need a job anymore. And you're looking to do that job properly. You're looking at 80 hours a week. Huge amount of money to do that job. But the politics, I talked to us, they gave me every single phone number to contact their IT head and every single football team. And everybody had their own ideas about what they should look like. And when it comes to NFTs, they have revenue sharing. So they had to buy some of the blockchain solution on board that proposed when it came to NFTs, they wanted to own those. It just became a political mess. And so I said, no, thanks. And I just, to this day, look at it and say, I think their issue with blockchain was just they look at blockchain and think crypto. No, the FTX, no, that's crypto, blockchain. That's a disaster. And you just, this is their IT folks. So it's frustrating. The media is the worst. The media is horrible. Are you sure you don't live in there in Italy, Jeff, by the way? Because this rings me more than one bell. I don't know. I really, really, it's something quite familiar to me to my years of seeing. Yeah. Oh, goodness. I thought it grow was different, but I... No, the other company that tried to hire me was Amazon. And Amazon, Amazon worldwide, is clueless about the blockchain. They were gonna make their own coin at one time, which became a, you probably don't know if you remember that. That became a disaster. They're still looking at blockchain, but they just seem to flop. You know, I think you guys had it at the beginning, you hit it on the head. This is all about governance. It's not technical yet. It's all about governance. And so that is an issue with, I work for BP. So no matter what you say about oil companies, BP, that's got to be one of the best companies on earth to work for, for the benefits when they treat people. But governance is just an issue with NFL governance, Amazon governance. Yeah, that just seems to be such a core to those blockchain solutions as governance. It's governance and feedback loops. You have to be able to get it so that the parties feel invested. Just keep it open, please. I need a credit card. Yeah, so, by the way, the NFL said, well, we've been exploring with our consulting firm the fact that we're gonna have to issue an NFL coin to put our NFT solution and who told you that? Why would you need an NFL coin? No, you don't. You got a permission blockchain. And it's just so, this is their consulting firm in Miami somewhere, but anyway. Okay. Yeah, my interest is really around the governance in use cases where governance can get up front and analyze misconceptions around blockchain. Okay. I guess a quick question, a little bit back to Ion's thought. When you were doing the material movement use case, then I know I didn't get there. Was there any money involved in it or were you just focused more on the material movement? Is that to me? Yeah, that's a question for you, Jeff. Both. Okay, good. So you did add the money and the actual physical good as you're moving it? I understand that. And the reason why they have to do that because there's so much money involved, currency fluctuations can impact a project of these magnitudes. When you're talking about some, that's a five or $10 billion project. What currency are being used, I think what region you are in. So they have to do a lot with the, they should do a lot with the trade finance part of it, but currency fluctuations can really impact the profit of the project. Yeah, good. Yeah, especially in all developing countries. Jeff, this is a swamping that we should be exploring too. You see, I've been massively exposed to Africa, Middle East. Well, I was Angola, the specific one I'm talking about was the offshore Angola. Yeah, I think about Tunisia, I think about the sea Algeria where you have massive projects and the structure also trade finance. And you see the projects are laying behind because of fluctuations of the currents of the air. So there maybe it's also good space for those kinds of topics that you mentioned that could help in some way, starting out with troubles. You don't, you would never get a documentary credit unless you have both and much more than the total amount on the deal, frozen and bank accounts. Even a double of the total amount. So that's an issue. Think about the small and medium companies down that they have awesome projects that have managed to finalize because of the steering oils. So again, this screen's more than one belt in my ears. Good. So I know we're at the top of the hour here. So and we usually try to finish because everyone's got a lot of other things to do here. This was never, this was intended to be an open discussion and it worked out perfectly. Sorry again, we got going a little bit late with the, we'll figure that out for next time with things here, both on the LinkedIn side as well as within Hyperledger so that we have the right Zoom link or others don't get onto our Zoom link. How's that out there? So great input from different folks. Hopefully it sparked some thoughts. I would look for us to get together again on January, what's 14 days from now? January 26th? 26th, yeah. And that meeting is... Same time. Yeah, same time as two days. Hopefully same link time because we were on the right side. Yeah, we were on the right link. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. So we were on the right link. As soon as it's ready, by the way, let's upload the meeting recording on the same media so I can reshare with the community on LinkedIn's right ways for bringing attendance. And as we've noticed, we're a small group today but dedicated professional that can bring good topics on the table to go further with this. By the way, we have, if I'm not wrong, we have Jonathan, my friend Jonathan from UK. Just challenge Jonathan. Nice to see you, by the way, on the phone. Yeah. And next time, Malia, as well as Jean, if you want to share some thoughts here, I know you guys were kind of more enlisted more additionally here. You're welcome to put things in. And I guess the other thing I'd ask is, please share on your LinkedIn or whatever the survey here. If our goal is to get 100 responses out there, it'd be helpful for a little bit extra push. And then hopefully in the 26th, we can make some decisions where we want to go and then we can start talking about what people want to do in order to make that thing a reality here. Whatever we decide to do out there. Eric, Andrea, anything else? No, stick to us. As Tom said, this year is going to be a slightly different compared to what we have been doing during the last three years. Less speeches by industry stakeholders and the more activities within the group. We would need a group to stick together in the solid day, bring more of dedicated professionals to bring some results. This is a challenge of 223. And I would love to get to some results. And I think also since we didn't have Daniela on this time, do the mix up, we'll have Daniela, she said she'll come on next time on the 26th. So we'll spend the first few minutes having her give us a couple thoughts on 2023 and hyperledger overall. So with that, we'll close out. Again, thanks everybody for sharing your background, your thoughts, your interests across the board here. Sounds like we're kind of in the right area with these three. Mel, let's get a few more people to add their thoughts to it. Appreciate it from everybody. Thank you so much. Thanks a lot. Thanks everyone. Have a nice day ahead. Bye everybody. See you soon, bye. Ciao. Ciao.