 Excellent. Good evening and welcome to the Scottish Parliament. My name is Kimberly Wong and I'm the Public Affairs and Policy Officer at CRER and that's the Coalition for Racial Equality and Rights. So welcome everyone to the 2020 Free Festival of Politics and this year's event celebrates the festival's 19th year of provoking inspiring and informing people of all ages and from every walk of life to engage in three days of spirited debate. I really look forward to this discussion and hearing from everyone's thoughts and views and it's really important that everyone is given the opportunity to contribute and even where there may be differences of opinion and that we treat each other respectfully at all times. So we are very delighted to have you join us today and to participate in Women of Color in Politics and Challenging Racism and that's in partnership with the Coalition for Racial Equality and Rights. Later I will be inviting you to get involved with questions and comments and if you're keen to continue to throw your thoughts out here then you can do that by using the channel at Visit Scott Parle or on Instagram. So yeah I would like to also remind everyone that this event is being livestreamed on the Parliament's SPTV channel. So yeah I'm very pleased to be joined today by Cocap Stewart MSP and councillor Shamine Akhtar sorry and Zandra Yehman. So yeah Cocap is a convener of the Scottish Parliament's Equality, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee and she was elected MSP for Glasgow Kelvin at the Scottish Parliamentary elections in May 2021 and she is also the first BME woman to be elected to the Parliament. So great, thank you for being here. And we are also joined today by councillor Shamine Akhtar and she was elected to the East Louisian Council in 2012 and currently she's the spokesperson for health and social care and also the Deputy Leader and she is also the first BME woman to hold the position of a Deputy Leader of a local authority in Scotland. And we are also joined by Zandra Yehman who is the curator of discomfort based at the Hunterian Museum at the University of Glasgow and as an anti-racist activist Zandra works with the museums to gain an understanding of current social systems and how they're influenced by the legacy of empire slavery and colonialism. So thank you all for joining us today. So as I said there will be an opportunity for the audience to put questions to the panel at the end. So I would just like to start with a few of my own opening questions and any of the panelists can answer at any point. So the first question is it was only in 2021 that the first black minority ethnic woman was elected to Scottish Parliament. So that is Pam Gossel and also Kokab Shirk who's here with us today. So what do you think having that representation will mean for women of colour in Scotland? What will I take that since I'm one of them? I'll never get tired of hearing about that achievement actually even though I must admit I did sort of downplay it because obviously I see myself as a whole person but you know the obvious visuals sort of like cues are there as well and whilst it is an achievement I think what we can't forget is that actually it happened in 2021 which was not that long ago and the first time that I stood for election was actually in 1999 which was the the first Scottish Parliament elections in fact. So that was a journey so it was an overnight success that took over 20 years so I think that clearly gives sort of like an indication of the multiple layers of barriers that can happen and whilst men of colour in politics I suppose I can talk about it there they have achieved success and got elected but also ministerial positions leaders of parties leaders of nations the women sadly are still distinctly missing there so that journey for women and that added layer of gender definitely comes in there I think for me personally I was a teacher for 29 years prior to being elected and a couple of days after I got elected I had to go back to school to say goodbye to my class and that was a bittersweet moment because I loved my job and education sort of runs all the way through me and it's my great passion and having to say goodbye to them and I felt okay because you know it's part of my journey to make a difference and I had reached the limit of what I could do in the classroom and I wanted to move into policy areas and have that bigger sort of holistic sort of be part of that story and policy making but the children they were inspired and their stories and one was a little girl primary six she was and she was a girl of colour and she had read all about it she'd seen me on news round and that was the most exciting thing was that she'd seen her teacher on news round and then the historical tagline that went with it and therefore she was like well Mrs Stewart you know it took you 20 years to get elected and you know I can do this job because you're doing it my teacher can do it so I could grow up and I could do that too and I said of course she can that's the whole point and she said yeah but I don't want to wait 20 years you've waited 20 years and I says it's all right sweetheart because now I'm there I've opened that door it is not going to take you 20 years so somebody is now there well there's two of us and Pam and I have this sort of thing going on between us because she's a regional so her results came out after mine so technically we always sort of have this banter between us just to sort of lighten it a wee bit so it's a responsibility that I take very seriously but through the eyes of a child it is actually hugely significant to have a constituency representative that represents Kelvin the third most diverse constituency in the whole of Scotland and to live there I live there it's my home it has been for 10 years and I will talk about race equality but I will also talk about education I will talk about retrofitting of tenemental properties because that is a huge issue in Kelvin so for everyone to see a woman of colour in mainstream politics that visual image but also the listening and the being part of the policymaking agenda it's a huge privilege but with it comes barriers which I'm sure we will go into well thank you very much Shamin or as Andrew would you like to answer as well congratulate co-cub and absolutely agree with what you're saying it's not just a positive role model for young people it's a positive role model for other black women as well because I'm aware of many women that are in you know prominent positions and leaders of organizations that have got the skills and expertise to be able to put themselves forward and but now see you and think to themselves I can do that and that's a really really powerful really really powerful for all women to think you know I can do that and to hear and listen to you speaking at the parliament and speaking and seeing you in panels like this is usually powerful not just for young people but for all women I would say but and for you as well we mustn't forget that actually for with electoral office there are different spheres of decision making and I always say that because sometimes I think our councillors are seen as the poor relations and I absolutely refute that because it is different spheres of government and decision making it's not tears and I'm very much for that is the working in partnership it's not a competition it's not a hierarchy because we often as MSPs are stuck in that middle bit I don't know where that comes from in the public but they seem to think that you've got MPs at the top and then you've got MSPs and then you've got councillors but actually they are different spheres they have different areas of responsibility and I would even argue that our councillors who have multi-billion pounds budgets have huge and enormous responsibility so I think you know your job I would argue is sort of carries a huge amount of weight with it as well I think what's important about both you are saying as a non-politician they'll party politically politician I guess is I hear the fact that you want to lift as you climb and I think that's really important when it comes to representation no matter what identity that we come from but I think we've always got to be very very careful about symbolism and how something like representation where the symbol of that can be really powerful but to ensure that we turn that into action actions that actually have an impact on society for good we see representation at the UK government level and I have to say that that representation well in the one hand you might think that the fact that there's people of colour being represented there and the visibility of that's good unfortunately in itself it's got you know it's a particular class of people of colour and that in itself I think can be quite problematic so in the one hand I think it's great to celebrate the fact that more people of colour are having access to civic life and politics and it's taken 20 years and we've still got to address that across all institutions I mean the institution I work for has I'm the only person of colour that works in the institution that I work for and it's been there for 400 years What do you do with that? No definitely yeah I feel like action is definitely a very important part of like trying to achieve race equality isn't just about like as you say representation but it is very important as well obviously to be able to see like a woman who's black minority ethnic in politics as well and yeah I think I think to have like like as Kokeb says like all of you coming from different spheres it's very interesting to hear what you'll have to say about that There's also a huge responsibility on women of colour in politics though which I think is important to kind of point out because you are there representing your constituency and you're not going to make everybody happy and it also makes you a target and it becomes that becomes racialised also which I think is really problematic because you don't find that with white people they don't get racialised in the same way that people of colour do and these are conversations that actually even within politics do they actually have that I mean I don't know I'm not a politician these are these the kind of conversations that actually are happening structurally behind the scenes because it's something that's really important Absolutely and I feel like like BME women especially there is going to be extra barriers and like we'll I think it blends into the next question really well but obviously there are more barriers for BME women in politics I would say so for example like Diane Abbott MP described like the online hate that she had received and she described it as highly racialised and also gendered because so this is quote people talk about rape and they talk about my physical appearance in a way that they wouldn't talk about a man I'm abused as a female politician and I'm abused as a black politician so for the free of you here how would you say the experiences of race and gender intersect with today's politics? Just you could set that to me early and I thought it just reminded me of the very first election that I stood for and it was in I'd graduated and it was within my students association and I thought well you know I can make a positive difference here and in a whole range of different areas about widening access and anti-racist action plans so I stood for election in the students association and I had sexist and racist graffiti on the posters and that was in the students association and when I saw that I thought I was going to stand and I thought do you know what I'll I have to work really hard now to to absolutely do my best and give it my best shot and I got elected and that gave me the opportunity to kind of call that out you know when that was happening and also as you'd said Zandra about lifting other women as well and of providing support and who might be thinking of standing for the students association and that led me on to other things and the work that I saw there enabled me to stand for the national union of students because I saw some students within in their campus not being able to walk from one end of the campus to the other because they were they were being subjected to abuse and racism and I thought well I'm what can I do to to make a difference here and that enabled me to you know stand for the national union of students and look at and at that time and helped to write anti-racist action plans for students associations to look at how they supported and supported constituents and but I would say definitely there is and at that time there wasn't social media but I think now because there is social media there is a little bit like and kind of really say and and do I like and sometimes I've got friends and black women are friends so we'll have something put up about them on on social media and they'll get in touch and say could you put supportive you know and need my support network to step up and come forward and support me and that's really important of and you know supporting other other black women when they see and see that happening but I think yeah that that does definitely that does happen and I think it's I take that it's calling that out when that happens and I'm lucky that I work with a lot of in my group and a lot of they happen to be men but they're there they're they're kind of your allies and support me so I'm you know there's that support network that you need from both both men and from women as well that you can't be the only one calling that I or highlighting that other people need to come along with you and do that and they do do that I mean Diana is very very particular I mean there's loads of evidence to back up what she she has stated and I mean I can see some of the people in the room here some women of color who have been activists for a long time and I'm sure we all have a story to tell not only in politics but in our activism you know working for an anti-racist organization and you actually have to carry an alarm for your protection so while you're being an activist your family didn't choose that you know that that's your role but it doesn't mean your family so there's there's loads of layers to how women of color are being treated in general by society as a whole but the thing for me about Diana and I but that I thought was really fascinating as well is women treat her like that too white women treat her like that and so we have to also acknowledge the the with regards to feminism intersectionality that's why Kimberly Crenshaw's concept around intersectionality is really really important and I just don't think we're there yet I don't think the Scottish Parliament's there yet I don't think most of the institutions are there yet they don't see us as a complete whole human being people didn't see Diana but as this complete whole human being that she is and I think that made her an easy target to know you know nothing she did apart from existing and we do have a lot of work to do there and sorry just another to add to that even within the sphere that I work in cultural heritage where you know the Daily Mail and other newspapers might write personal stories about me and nobody really bats an eyelid but as soon as it's a white cultural heritage worker you know it becomes like a Twitter storm and that's terrible what's happening to her and you know the these are the people that get to sit around the table with editors of the newspapers who's wrote about them so there's also issues around class attached to that oh I've got so much have we actually even moved forward I don't know cook up there you are I think the class thing um I'll sort of yeah I'll pick up on that uh what's that sort of so we've got Hamza Yusuf and Anas and they tell this story the the two of them and actually it's great to see uh the although obviously politically they're very different when it comes to race equality and uh they both actually are very supportive and it crosses parties on that um and I think that that's a healthy way that actually it is one thing that we can all come together on but interestingly enough um one they're both men uh but they both went to the same private school and they're actually from the same village in the Punjab as well I mean they didn't know each other then but I mean it just goes to show so there's actually a lack of diversity in the lack of diversity um as well so the anomaly of course is here I am um I am not privately school educated I come from a very very modest background I had to work full time throughout my political activism because I couldn't afford not to um I had to and raise two children in amongst that and people always think that when when you're fighting elections it was four that I fought during that 20 years um uh the first one was against uh Donald Dewar uh stood against Alistair Darling um so at that time I mean I look back and I think that was really really good practice to stand against the big hitters and certainly it was a great photo opportunity let's not be do you know I mean well it was you know it is a great photo opportunity everyone's taking every box and everything I'm gaining my experience I wasn't naive enough to think that uh you know all this sort of you know people are capitalising on the process that's what happens um and eventually it came but I was nearly ready to give up and in fact I had almost I have started mentoring and spotting talent for the future and bringing on young women in particular but you know men absolutely fine but I do encourage young women of colour to come into any field but to reach the top of that field um and I had done that but there's always one more election in you um you know much to the the disgust of your family um so there is that the abuse is horrendous I mean it's absolutely horrendous um I mean around the you know it was uh it was during Covid um elections weren't the same the coverage wasn't the same so to have this amazing story of you know history making front pages women uh was a good news story but on the black on the back side of that was the abuse that came immediately uh so the Islamophobia uh that came through and actually I got it from both sides um I was brought up in the Muslim faith uh so I got the Islamophobia but then on the other flip side I also got it that I wasn't Muslim enough uh so so that was the interesting thing um and then whilst there were women that were very supportive there were actually there were women as well um that were incredibly unsupportive as well and were not happy about it because I had taken the place of a white woman who could have been elected and because it's it's competitive right so you're competing and we always say that you know in politics there's only a certain amount of seats you know you've got to knock somebody else out of the way in order to take your place so the people who are not there they get disgruntled and the expectations and the uh I suppose the scrutiny is excruciating it is absolutely excruciating I literally cannot set a toe wrong without being over analyzed and um you know the expectations are incredibly high which no human as a whole human can ever maintain that so then what happens is that you know you're you're going to mess up you're going to say the wrong thing you're going to offend someone you're going to have a a cranky day um you're not going to be this angelic wonderful well spoken charming putting everyone you know as a human we're not built that way but when that happens then instead of being it put down to a normal human response it's actually see the rubbish right no good at all oh yeah no honestly really you know so you get written off so you go from hero to zero very quickly um and the other uh sort of like challenges sort of like calling out the racism I have to say hats off to you for continuing I must confess I don't always and that's a human admission because I am exhausted with it and I have days that that's all I would do is just challenge it constantly and it wears you out and I have to make decisions on some days where I have to just sort of power through and hopefully an ally or somebody else in the room will take that up because at that moment in time if I spent all my energies on that I would not be able to be a constituency msp I would not be able to be an effective convener I would not be able to do all the other things that I do and I have to focus on that so sometimes I must admit it's exhausting it's maybe for the same for for you it should mean is like racism is white people's problem so actually it shouldn't be people are colouring politics or even in their role wherever they are that have to be the people that are constantly having to challenge it and deal with it and I think when going back to Diane Abel also when you think about it it's like the focus is a woman of colour okay that's fine but it's a politician and there's there's such a broad level of of things that people have to take on board as as a politician but it always seems to be that focus and race including the fact that even us saying things like white people because that's uncomfortable for many folk because white people haven't been racialized in this same way that the black minority ethnic people have and so I mean I don't know how you do that I couldn't be a politician it would drive me crazy but also the anti-racist activism when I was to have long black hair there's a reason that's silver now it takes its toll on you and it's a real life choice isn't it there's no getting there's no getting out of it that's it once you start that steam roller go and it's very very difficult to step away because if you step away people will also say it was tokenistic you weren't real you know it's it's all consuming it's all consuming um I still get uh it's interesting if I if I talk about race um then I and I have I mean I I'm giving you not paraphrase as I am quoting conversations that people have had with me um I in that context I've had people say uh cook up there is so much more to you than just being a woman of color now you can unpick that I'll leave that with you um so somebody's saying that to your face and how I'm supposed to react to that um I won't go into what happened next uh suffice to say I'm a politician I can't handle these things in a very diplomatic manner um which I did uh there um if I don't talk about race then that's also an expectation is that you know people will say well and that quite rightly can come from within our own communities because I often I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place quite often because they will say well actually we have representation what you're doing with that voice you know you've got to be and I think Xandra you alluded to it earlier is that it's actually not enough uh just to be in a position of visibility and responsibility but it what it is what you do with that and the personal cost of that can be quite high it's not impossible because we do it um but the personal cost is quite high you're constantly trying to please everybody and and actually that's where the politics that's where conviction your values the the party political affiliations and your own views come into it is you have to take a line and you have to take a decision um and certainly within my own party I know that I have been incredibly challenging um of my own party structures uh within we have the BAME network um and I think I think I'm the honorary president of that now but I was um at the inception um of when it came about um but of course that was helped by many years ago from the stuc when they set up the black workers committee so I sort of cut my teeth on that in the 80s but again you know now people say oh my goodness this is just so fresh and I'm like no no this is not fresh you know these are battles that have been sort of fought for hundreds of years and they're all in a way they're depressingly uh sort of like similar to what happened then but hopefully we'll move on to more optimistic uh futures very soon no but yeah I think all of that really does resonate with me um because I'm I would say I'm very very new to kind of like the race equality sector as a whole and like being active and as you say like showing allyship calling out racism understanding really what intersection intersectionality means like it's it's a lot for for one person and as Andrew says like there's an expectation when you are a BAME woman to kind of be able to answer all those questions to understand fully what that means um but yeah for I'll just move on to the next question because I have so many questions um that we could go on for that um but Neil so the Black Lives Matter protest um took place across the world in 2020 following the murder of George Floyd um so do you think that the Black Lives Matter movement has led more people to become more engaged in activism um I will ask maybe Sandra first yeah it was a really interesting time wasn't it I mean how sad it always seems to be something that moves something forward and in this case it was the murder you know of George Floyd who was murdered by the police um and it was a I mean I the role I was in was at that point and you know when I think about all the the years of my life of activism I'd never seen anything like it I had never seen I'm 55 you had never seen a kind of reaction like it in my lifetime and it was very stressful because at that point working for a race equality organization everybody woke up to racism in Scotland you know before that the fact that we had you know more racially motivated murders in Scotland per capita than the rest of the UK long before the murder of George Floyd nobody woke up to that you know all the evidence of racism whether it's over or covariate exists in Scotland um but people want to talk about you know um the symbolism things and then when George Floyd died you know we'd already been going through the process around Shaco bio you know nobody was paying attention to this it was a real shock so an answer to your question what I think it did was it paused I'm sure the pandemic played a part in that because people were bored and had nothing else to do I'm just going to say it straight um and all of a sudden you had all these people with their black lives matter statement and thank goodness for race equality organizations like the coalition for racial equality rights because they kept an eye on that and they you know after a year went back to all those organizations to see what they've done and the majority of them hadn't really changed anything but back to that thing about symbolism and I'm learning this as I'm getting older because I hate symbolism but as I'm getting older as an activism begin to understand that sometimes you need symbolism and we can use that because the doors are jar so then we try and push the door open and it's awful it's awful we are pushing that door open off the back of a man who was murdered by the police and it's not unlike you know a lot of the work we do again you know a lot of what we see in our society in scotland is off the back of enslaved african people and other colonized um countries I think it shifted things but I think we have to keep pushing because what will happen is it'll go back and it already looks like it's going back so opportunities like that give us a chance to push forward but the door starting to get heavy again that's what I would say about it yeah sort of like you've used the sort of like the analogy of a door and I often think of it as sort of like I think yes I've opened a door I suppose what I wasn't expecting was to walk slap bang into sort of like a glass window pane as soon as I open that door and that is sometimes what I feel like I must admit I think you make a good point about the it captured global interest and I think that social media and mainstream media had a role to play in that and because it was during Covid people were able to galvanize over zoom and over teams and I remember that there were huge meetings that were organized overnight which wouldn't have happened in real life I don't think to that extent although we do obviously see protests in the street and I suppose Glasgow has a history of that I mean was it asylum say a Ken Muir street is an example in Glasgow where communities can very quickly galvanize to support and I'm not sure that would Ken Muir street have happened had we not sort of like being used to communities coming together and having that wave effect you know that critical mass that happens so I'm glad for it for that what I'm disappointed in because I took part in some of those meetings as a civilian the election hadn't happened yet and I listen politicians came along and they were like well we can't have this this is awful this is a moment of change they're the change makers and I was on that call and they did listen and I'm glad that they listened but in a way I thought have we let them off the hook and I say them because I wasn't part of that but have we let them off the hook too quickly and too easily because listening is good but where's the action in that where what happened then you know what legislation was changed what policy directives then came out where is the difference in how our boards are made up of our governance structures well you know we've had the racism in cricket report that came out recently well we had the Met police before then we have Scottish police so we're you know talking about institutional racism so these things are still there so whilst these events do I am disappointed that they become time limited and as time moves on we revert back but every time it happens with hope what I have to say is that there are more and more allies that are coming forward and what we mustn't forget also is I was a school teacher at that time as well and the kids were all talking about it so the teachers were forced to address it and then there were materials that were coming through now at school at that time I can tell you now that there were complaints that were put in by parents who objected to teachers discussing the Black Lives Matter movement and racism and everything in the classrooms because they you know we're in that space of either the children were too young to deal with these issues they're not they see it everywhere and they didn't believe that racism really existed or they then it was that kind of double negative of if you were a black teacher doing that well you were on a hiding to nothing because then you were completely biased and you were brainwashing the children into a sort of like civil rights movement and giving a skew with that view of that it's only now that we're starting to challenge that empire view of course because we've had that for centuries which is interesting so yeah that that's my comments on it is I think we let them off the hook I do I still actually I have to say I'm still brave enough to challenge some of my colleagues who were elected then and are elected now and every now and then I say I remember you were on that call and you said that you would do this how are you getting on with that and it does cause a few squeaky bumps it does but you know I just think to myself well I'm here now may as well you know I'll use my voice because you know may as well I totally agree with analogies of pushing at the door and the allies and I think what I saw locally with people coming out around East Lothian and organising demonstrations putting up banners etc so that you're absolutely right about creating those those ally that ripple effect that we have to just keep and it's it's horrendous at a barbaric event like that has to happen for for us to sit up and think you know I need to I need to do something so absolutely that that did happen and I think we are seeing some changes so for example all I can say about locally and we meet with the local police quite regularly so we had a meeting with the east of scotland police constable and she said look I just want to meet with you just to you know and we had a conversation around the police saying we're institutionally racist and having a conversation around but what will that mean for us and what what does that mean for for police scotland in our area what does what will you be doing differently in our local area what what difference will our community see if that's what your message nationally is going to be so I think locally that that kind of those allies are and you're absolutely right we just have to constantly keep pushing at that door and just reminding people well yeah you know we had that meeting with police scotland you did see that you're going to do x y and z and what difference what difference is that making to us to local communities in East Lothian to make them feel safer so I get the regular news updates about edinburgh my brother lives in in leith walk and it was an assault of a young man and the first thing I did was to check you know that that that kind of that those feelings in you to check that is that was that was that him so those kind of things where you know we have to work and much keep working on pushing the door and holding them to a kind of the things that they are saying and ways that we can support the police to make sure those things do happen at a local level and people feel safe and secure because you know they in many cases they don't absolutely yeah I think what comes from that is like change is so necessary from things like this is not just it wasn't just a movement like it's not and it's still is it I would say and there were things before it or things during it there are things after it and we keep needing to push for it and I think what I would want to ask you in terms of changes would you say how much change would you say is possible within the political sphere and how much change is only possible out with it for you well it has to be a partnership and it can't be one or the other I've lived it and you know I think we all have we've been through that cycle so many times and legislation is good and it is welcome certainly and whilst it protects us from the worst excesses of discrimination be that in the workplace or walking down the street or access to services goods healthcare it protects us from the worst excesses but what it doesn't do is protect us from people's culture and bias and the transgressions and microtransgressions the constant sort of like chipping away sadly I do think we're now in a situation where when you do sort of like allude to or say actually this is blatant racism the offence isn't caused the outrage isn't caused by the fact that you have identified the racism the offence and the outrage is that you dare to maybe imply that somebody is being racist that that is now the the problem is and I I do have a concern that when we do sort of like see things like institutional racism for instance that's an interesting one and when the running out racism when they commissioned the report into Sport Scotland well Cricket Scotland and there were 448 examples of institutional racism that were identified I did a members debate in the parliament on the back of it and it got an amazing amount of support and sort of of however on the back of that I got horrendous abuse on that because I was taking away the joy the fun of it and I was targeting individual people I was not so people were able to strip it down and it's like well we're not racist I'm not racist and I was trying to educate them and say look an institution is made up of people but then it has that kind of institutional culture that suddenly emerges and we all sort of like drift along into it and before we know it it just becomes common practice and it's very difficult to challenge it now HR policies and practices edis sort of equality diversity impact statements all of that now I know happens but I have to say that although all these policies and procedures are in place what also is needed is that partnership between people changing their attitude and behaving differently and what I find is that everybody wants somebody else to change but actually the change lies within ourselves and it is that kind of you know Maya Angelou is sort of like when you know better do better and don't be afraid of that and that word I mean during one of my speeches I talked about being uncomfortable and getting comfortable with being uncomfortable that actually it's all right to be uncomfortable it's all right to check your own biases it's all right to check yourself out and think did I do the right thing but unfortunately we do wider in society politicians aren't allowed to apologize you know people aren't allowed to say actually do you know what I'm sorry I got that wrong I didn't know that but now that I know this this is how it behave because we get you know everybody gets pillory to you get condemned but as a teacher as an educator I occupy that space where I think it's good to learn it's okay to let go of maybe bad practice bad attitudes that were uninformed you know the way out the art language use terminology changes all that kind of thing we need to be more mindful of it and of course what's happened on the back of that is that then you get accused of being part of the woke the woke culture and I've just sort of diffused it and I said well literally you can call me woke up that that will do fine you know I'll I'll live with that I can live with that but I know for some of my colleagues that it's sort of like that kind of insult isn't it it's what you're doing here it doesn't as on you know the human rights committee and everything that you alerted alluded to actually by protecting rights of one group of people in my eyes I'm very far and that actually benefits everybody it absolutely benefits everybody you know it's not a detriment to you if it helps somebody then that's grand and I'll finish by just going back to that class with that girl that said 20 years there was a white boy in that class and he put his hand up and his comment was and I thought what an amazing you know your parents would be proud of you son really because he was delighted for me as well and he went on to say says you know there is just so much sort of like things that are wrong and I can see that my friends that are a different colour of me get treated differently and I'm just so happy that you've been elected because now I can comfort my friends and say look you can do it and I'll be right behind you and I'll help you and I thought well there you go straight out of the mouth of apes yeah just to say that and about whether you can make a change in difference in politics and or is I think it's both I think we need a healthy civic society that challenges all the spheres of of politics within within society and and I suppose just reflecting on how I started off with with politics with a small p in my local local area where there was racist graffiti on the walls there was a local poo park that was vandalised and we thought well actually we want to do something about it well in primary school and we were really fortunate we had a really active central scotland racial equality council embedded there really active and and they had a youth group so we were able to take that forward we were able to kind of challenge we gave us opportunities to be able to talk to decision makers and we got the chance to go to s to c conference you and to talk about experiences so I think that's really important of of activism and yeah that does make a difference but then that led me to get involved in politics I thought I want just as you said how do I make a difference to people's lives when I when I see the impact of the cost of loving crisis domestic violence and homelessness and all of those things what else can I do to to make a difference and support people and I thought the best way that I could do that was to join a political party and to stand for the local for local council because that was local services public services that are used predominantly more by women than than they are by men and more black and more ethnic women than than than men and that's where we need to make sure we're delivering good quality public services as local elected representatives to support people and provide that that safety net in society so they are able to live in a safe secure home that you do have you are able to get away from domestic violence and abuse and you do have teachers at school that give you the best possible chance and that's what I had at school you know I had a teacher you know let yourself cope cab that really believed in me and really pushed me to say look I know you can you can do it and I was the first of my family to to go to university so all those spheres of local government are really really important and of making sure we've got those good quality public service so I would say both we need good healthy external scrutiny and and asking the questions cook up and the accountability and the politicians and saying the things that they're going to do and actually making sure that happens and at a local level you are very accountable as soon as I leave the house in the morning or if I'm doing you know doing my shopping in Tesco's you know what's happening on this issue and that is just so you are very very accountable and making sure that we're meeting the needs of our local community which are you know I kind of passionately believe that that's where we can make a difference I think you do need it all I mean a lot of what ends up happening comes from the grassroots level so for instance we talked about the Black West Matter movement what was wonderful about what happened at that time was people mobilised without organisation setting up oh here's a day an event they actually mobilised themselves which was fantastic to see but the other layer for me is and I agree with both of you I mean it would take a lot for me to call someone racist but what I do see is the engine that drives it you know and for me one of the the tools that to use is memory I think I think memory now especially as you get older is quite radical and institutional memory is pretty radical now because what I see within race equality and not only race equality within the within equalities across the board and from an intersectional perspective is people forget we've seen it all before you know I was born a month before Enoch Powell's rivers of blood speech you know and that speech which started because an Indian Sikh man wanted to wear his turban while working in the buses Enoch Powell loved he wanted to become a governor of India but actually he didn't get that role he hated Indians he didn't get that role so he's one of the first MPs in contemporary time that used immigration as a tool to to progress his career we're not teaching children this stuff you know and then we're jumping to you know the 21st century and we are continually seeing politicians using immigration as a tool to further their career so for me with the work we do and us getting together you know activists politicians all of that stuff we need to be radical in our memory you know we talked about the s2c earlier you know all the amazing work that activists and that I stand on the shoulders of who set up the black workers network but then s2c you know lost their case of victimisation on the grounds of race and none of the black workers at that point were supportive of that you know we need to be able to talk about these uncomfortable things hence the reason why I'm creative with discomfort I have institutional memory and people don't want to hear that but for us to be able to move forward we need to we need to talk about these these things so that we are comfortable in our discomfort because how can we learn how can we move on you know mistakes is where we learn but we aren't even willing to talk about the mistakes we made how is there any learning so politics and being politicians and policy and legislation will get us so far but it's not the only thing you know we we have to bring all of our values to the table and no matter what area of work we're in or whatever we do you know value-based leadership for me across the board is how we have to progress our society in a much more equitable way absolutely yeah thank you very much for all your answers like um yeah I think like what I got from that was anti-racism really you can't it's you can't confine it into one area and everyone has to do their part for that and you have to be active um but no thank you very much I think I am going to open up to the floor now um so I would like to invite people in the audience um to participate in this discussion as well so if you would like to ask a question um could you please raise your hand and keep it raised and we will bring a microphone to you and if not I will continue to ramble on with my questions so we'd really appreciate it um yeah make a comment when they talked about the black lives matter movement see if we did this event like a week after that this room would be full what does that tell you just had to throw that comment in there what is a piece of media a book a tv show movie article podcast whatever about women of color in politics and activism that you would recommend all the time but I tend to listen to history and museum podcasts so I would recommend them I mean there's there's podcasts out there um and I should mention the Glasgow rooms library as well actually it's about feminism for me and obviously intersectionality is part of that so anything that comes out of the Glasgow rooms library engage with it purple and it's just about the um you know that the horrendous things that are happening there around domestic violence and the resilience and of of getting out there and seeing hope and I think you're absolutely right it is a tough stunt being um a black minority ethnic politician but you just think you know what difference that you're there to make to other people to other women every day when you get up you know if you're able to make a difference to one person's life and then that's that that's worth it the color the big the color purple I'm a big fan of Maya Angelou so any works by Maya Angelou but the particular poem phenomenal woman that that is my favorite and I did actually do it as part of a burn supper when I was asked to do a reply from the lassies and I did a black feminist reply of the lassies and I used phenomenal women as part of that as well and that went down very well there was a wee bit of a silence and then it was like you know a clap and I thought I don't know which way this has gone here but it was fine she was a fan of Robert Browns she was a fan of Robert Browns she was she was a fan but yeah that's a brilliant poem and I have it marked and the pages I think have fallen out of that particular collected sort of book but I must admit as a politician one thing that does go off very quickly as a back bench or newly elected is reading for pleasure and I do regret that I'm slowly sort of like getting back into it because you have so many committee papers and they can be that thick and you're reading for information rapidly assimilating all this kind of thing and I do miss that because in times of great despair and you don't know you know you're in a maze which way do you turn it all looks very bleak and to actually have a culture and to have that sort of imagination of a book and to sort of like escape into that I prize that and I value that so much and it's yeah two years and a bit and now I'm starting to read books that is and ironically I'm revisiting the ones that I enjoyed first and then I'll get on to new stuff that is something that's really annoying isn't it like because we read so much policy and you know research and reports because you know what it's like you're a woman of colour you need to know what you're talking about otherwise you're not seen as is credible so you over over think over read over prepare and I forget what it was like to read for pleasure hence there is my like podcast but as a young woman I loved reading bell hooks and bell hooks actually really shaped my activism and a key thing that she talks about is radical margins and I come from a very lower working class background and reading bell hooks really made me realise that I'm allowed to take up space and it's not about me stepping out of the margins it's making the oppressors walk into my marginalised space and speak my language that shaped my activism it's not left me what I really want to say is to follow along what the panelists have said uh you'll have noted that almost all of the authors that they've mentioned are american and despite this accent I've been here for 30 years so and I was born in the south experienced segregation universally in education in health care in city services all kinds of things however an important thing to remember is that the situation in the states historically and currently is infinitely different than here and people lose sight on that and I'm not being critical but I am saying there is not one book unfortunately so you really have to divide your attention and read about several countries I mean I lived in I've lived in three different countries in one of them was Sweden people think that's fine in sweden it is not but you have to read these you have to expose yourself either to or not either actually to both individuals where you can where you're able to do so and to study and read because situations in various countries differ based on their their traditions the cultural life uh the homogeneity of the population uh their histories just a lot of things so take care there but bell hooks I mean I just couldn't uh recommend that's the other thing to put I said we are of a particular generation so I think history is great for that like from what I need to say and also if you want to have an understanding of what's going on in the world and how racism is a shape shifter I mean I'm off to Australia next week and the experience of Aboriginal people in Australia is completely different from the experience of many other people of colour from around the world you know they're still colonised so you know that's probably why I went down that route in my activism was looking at how we present our societies through objects and belongings that particularly don't come from you know there's the joke about the British Museum there's nothing British in the British Museum which is actually you know to me that's another way of being able to open your eyes to what's going on around the world even if you can't travel to those places these museums are have full of objects and belongings that can make you think more about the wider world a bit of humour I suppose because I was thinking of uh I mean there's sort of like can I use films is that a good thing um because sort of like books I suppose reflecting of uh a young uh sort of like Asian women um in my formative um the fiction was sort of severely lacking um you know there weren't the characters that resonated with me so you know the famous five generation and you know there was no which character do I relate to and I was constantly seeking that and I suppose sort of like through the years uh Mira Sayal although you know as a comedian and sort of actor and all the rest of it um but programmes like Goodness Gracious Me um I mean in in certain senses they were quite groundbreaking at that time um but Mira Sayal in particular has written great books with great humour um and some of them um sort of like resonated with me coming from an Asian family and you know going out from mad caps sort of like day trips with samosas and sand and chaotic aunties and all the rest of it so for that kind of thing that it was nice to have that side of you without because your life is very serious and actually most of the time other people make it serious for me um because I think well actually I quite enjoy life I'm quite light hearted I'd like to think I have a sense of humour um but I get pushed into all these sort of very very serious spaces which I enjoy and thrive on but the other bit is just the the the nurturing the nourishment of humour and just joy and sort of fiction that you can just throw yourself in but somehow there's characters that you can relate to that they sound like you they look like you you've got a wee bit of a shared history some sprinkling of Punjabi words that you know you remember even though it's very rusty for me now but I find that very reassuring it sort of validates one side of me that in certain spheres I have to sort of like hold back on and then other places so books and films like that are a space where I can be more myself because let's face it there are very few spaces that I can actually bring my whole self and I suppose the hope for the future is that all of us in whatever space we're in we can bring our whole selves without having to compromise any side of us thank you um great I was going to try and think of like every Simbuke but I've been reading Audrey Lord but at the same time I do have to say I spend a lot of the time on the internet and that's where I get most of my information um I don't know that's any help um but no I'm still open to the audience if anyone has any other questions just mentioned um for the future just then um and because we've spoken here about it's a really decades and decades of fighting this kind of uphill battle how do we kind of like maintain hope through all of that like it's exhausting like how do you not burn out so collectively like I mean it doesn't sound positive like um but yeah no but that's like to the floor like how do we maintain hope in this kind of line of work when I was younger I had really fantastic women role models and the the director of central scotland racial equality council pick young berry might be a name that's familiar to people Rowena Arshad might be you know Anita um and just having that you know that those I didn't know them very well but when I did when I went to things and I heard them and I saw them speak um they were really inspirational to me and we need people that are going to keep us going that have the same value base as us and I think that's really important of like supporting other women as well so I think like seeing people like co-cub is is one of those things that yet is relentless it is hard but I think that's really inspiring and making sure that we support those women and that we're you know co-cubs talked about how difficult it is in your sphere of of politics whereas in mine at a more local level I don't get that level of kind of scrutiny that that you get and how we make sure that we're whichever political party you are that we're supporting each other that you do feel that you are able to um lean on other people and and have that safe space to say look do you know I just need to have that conversation with somebody this is what happened and have that conversation with somebody that's going to completely understand um what's happened and you don't have to explain you know you don't have to kind of keep keep explaining to yourself but I would say there's there's lots of really fantastic prominent women in in in Scotland and I find that really inspirational and motivating to that's one of the things that keeps me keeps me going I suppose from my point of view there is hope because you know as Andrew said um I'm part of like human history a small part of it um but there's a long legacy behind me and I'm sort of like um building on that so whilst it's difficult for me I know that there are certain things that have been easier because of all the women that have gone before me um and actually men as well have played a part in that journey um and of all colours um as well we've got to remember that because there are allies everywhere and there are more and more that are there um and I suppose sort of like you know women of leadership I mean whether you agree with their politics and as I said nobody's perfect but people like sort of like you know Diane Abbott or you know in Pakistan for instance my country of my birth you know Benazir Bhutto I mean you know to have a female Muslim leader of a Muslim country so you know in in in the Rigandi you know all these but when it comes to hope I suppose I always sort of there's one outstanding one that I will mention and that is Whitney Houston who said it better than anybody because children are our future and that's where the hope comes in and maybe I'm very optimistic about that because actually we have now we've bred a generation that quite rightly um cares about the planet they care about their friends uh they care about you know they're active from a very very young age we have a rights-based curriculum here um they're all quite OFA with all the different articles of the UNCRC they're well ahead of government I mean we're still sort of like you know looking at how we're going to actually implement this whereas the children are actually way ahead of us and all that um they know what their rights are we're we're sort of like training them up which is just fantastic educating them and now they're coming to people like me and they're not holding back I mean look at Greta Thunberg for one but she is one of many many of the the new generation that are not settling they have louder voices they're very creative they're a very imaginative um they're making an absolute sort of like pain of themselves which is the right thing to do because you know when did sort of like the best behave people ever get things done so you know that kind of healthy sort of activism but agitation making adults like us be uncomfortable the pester power um so I'm very hopeful for the future because any young person I speak to from a very young age um our education system is good we are equipping them with the language of demanding change for our planet and demanding change for our fellow human beings it's coming from them and we cannot fail them I don't think they'll let us to be honest quite rightly you know they shouldn't let us off the hook I'm sure all of us can talk about moments where we are burnt out and we do get burnt out and we do get fed up in fact you both alluded earlier about you know you might have an off day but it becomes a thing because you're having an off day you're not even allowed to kind of have that which is sometimes part you burn out as well but the hope and there is hope none of us would be even sitting here or do what we do if we didn't believe in humanity none of us would be sitting here having these conversations that we didn't believe in change I think we're all of a generation where we've actually witnessed the impossible become the possible particularly through things like legislation and equality and human rights and change that we've seen and most importantly when you sit in a panel like this and you see a row of people you know of of different generations but a group of young people sitting there that's the hope you know all we can do is is um cook up sedge you know and it's great to see you sitting there standing on your shoulders there Anita um you know you've got people like Anita who's been around a long time doing all the pushing and shoving and then someone like me who come along standing on her shoulders and then the next generation is going to do that and hopefully you know what Anita experience is not what I experience and what the next generation experience is not what I you know that's a whole other experience that's the only way change is going to happen is us facilitating for the next generation and learning from the next generation too it's all hope great answers thank you is there anyone else who would like to ask a question we also have to accept as human beings that the attrition rate in the movement is enormous that just must be accepted as a fact and but we must keep at it those of us who are left must keep at it there's so many reasons and situations why people can't continue people who are earnest sincere of all races but the attrition rate has to be dealt with and we just keep have we just have to keep at it yeah it's a process um like many things it is actually you know as again as an educator it's sort of you know how do people uh change their behaviors change their attitudes and it does take sort of like a generation being accepted as being approximately seven years in that sense of changing things that's always a challenge to policymakers because if you look at electoral cycles of course they're sort of like you know moved to the fixed-term model of like five years so if you've got you know and I always think that that's an interesting sort of like dilemma there for politicians is that in order to change we talked earlier about policy legislation but also culture and attitudes and how you square that square circle that whatever pin you know whatever how many corners I mentioned yes I know there's something in there somewhere whatever shape it is but how you reconcile that is actually quite challenging with our current electoral system because people get elected as you know it is sort of um and it's applying for a job like no other um you know it relies on sort of like no particular background uh no particular specialism uh there's no interview as such although people would say that internal you know you have to go through hustings and everything but um and then it's sort of like it's a popularity contest so when you're standing for election of course who you've got an electorate that's maybe got 70 000 voters in it how many of those are going to be sort of active and they're going to vote and we know that people vote for folk who look like them sound like them but resonate so already you can see that we have an issue here um but that I think is moving and the more sort of like visible faces and visible diversity of background class is a huge thing much bigger than I think we ever give a platform to because in the asian culture often it can be quite elite within my own culture and I know I'm an anomaly within that because I don't come from a wealthy background I don't go to the gala things and I know that that excludes me from the equivalent of the golf course for instance you know it's the same thing it's the same principle but if you're getting elected for five years you go for the quick hits and what we actually need in you know we need substantial long-term change long-term generational change that takes us over electoral cycles so hence sometimes we get governments that go for the you know economic when there's economic volatility one way to manage that we know is to pitch people against one another and then it's a competition for resources and minorities are the obvious choice you know go for the weakest link pit them up against one another whereas actually the bigger argument is against governments who are making political choices and they should be doing that so that that is I'm not saying that there should be longer in between by the way you know it's sort of I'm just putting it out there as a thing to sort of discuss there's also another layer to that when we talk about policy and there's policy makers but there's also people who are meant to enact that policy and in my experience I find that there's lots of great policies out there it's just the people that are meant to enact it don't know how to do it and that's where we have a lot of problems I think and trying to progress you know make for a better society is people are in positions of power who actually don't know what they're doing they don't know how to take policy that is is is excellent and they don't know how to put that into action it becomes this other thing and this thing like as if you're you know as if it's like rocket science but actually I think as long as we keep people at the centre of everything we do we can't go wrong you know we shouldn't remove the fact that anything that the policy makers are you know politicians are there as a function to work for us and part of them working for us is to actually remember that we exist and the policies that are made should actually be shaped by broader communities not just one one part of our society but but broadset all of us as much as as we can be in particularly the younger generation as you were talking about but I don't even mean the cult of young because that's important but intergenerational is important as we were talking about institutional memory and I don't know I think I think as you were saying because politics is like a short-term game isn't it and and there's a lot of egos and such that play a part in it it's really difficult to get your you know for us to actually embed the change that we'd all like to see in our society but I think policy is there it's getting people in the right place that know how to enact that policy which I think quite problematic yeah it's that sort of challenge of not letting it turn into a tick box and I must admit I do see that quite a lot I mean I have to say in education I see that quite a lot is that whilst there's nothing wrong with the policies per se once the policy's in place it's like job done that box has been ticked where is actually the reality of when you test that policy for instance like a grievance or a complete complaints procedure if you actually test it then you realise the flaws that are in it and suddenly it becomes impenetrable but oh we have a we have a policy for that and it's like well clearly it's not working but I think again with the type of person that maybe goes into politics you know we do get very precious as politicians well some do some politicians get very precious about something they've come up with and you become so attached to that idea that actually to see the contra evidence to that and to hear that sort of like the dissonance you actually sort of reject that because we want resonance we you know we gravitate towards people who resonate with our ideas so yes but I've done that I've done that but what we don't do so maybe that's something and I have mentioned it before is that committees so our role is to scrutinise things that are happening and things that could include legislation that's coming from the government but also things that are happening in society so we can rapidly react to current events as well as looking at policy what we don't seem to do I've just observed is that we don't do retrospective scrutiny and I sometimes think that is there a place for that again I'm just putting it out there is that instead of scrutinising stuff that's coming ahead of us at times could committees stop look back and reflect on some of the policies and legislation that has been passed and scrutinise that in the light of what we know now has it in fact had the impact that it was meant to achieve has it been value for money have people's lives actually been altered and to take evidence on that but again we're in a political arena and if any party dared to do that you could imagine the headlines of any party would be like oh they don't believe in their own policy or they're admitting they got it wrong omni shambles so maybe in politics we just need to turn the temperature down a little bit in that sense just thinking about that's another issue I think is the fear of what the newspapers are going to say it has actually had a huge impact on our society and something's got to give there something really has got to give there it feels at times that actually it's what the media is going to say is actually what's shaping what politicians are going to do and I think I don't think that's democracy at all it's really dangerous really dangerous it's very dangerous and it's very it's a very difficult whilst anyone in any responsible job you know you would be careful in the positions you're in you know you would behave in a manner that is professional in accordance with with all the standing orders and things however you know we are sort of like functioning human beings as well and the way that you can put things and have them open for debate and that's what we all want I think I do still believe that there is a space for a healthy debate and I think that the media plays a very valuable role in that debate and what we mustn't do is conflate all media with that what we need to be doing as adults is to be more discriminatory in the messaging and the media that we absorb and what we read and again I always sort of say to people is like read around the issue don't just go for the headline grabbing things and I think I mean to be fair on the media I think they're learning that as well you know they're going through a bit of a transition print media for instance there's far less people that are engaging with that I mean it's consumer led in that sense but I do sense that there is a change there I think this is where the internet and social media can be a force for good because again you can you can if you click into it of course you can see a variety of views and you can compare it across the world but yeah I'd like to think well we see that actually in the media is that whilst there is a danger Xandra of what you're saying I think we have plenty of examples of politicians that actually don't give to who it's about the media and they just say what they want to say so yeah yeah I suppose just at a local level it just feels a little bit kind of slightly less confrontational so for example if we we have a council plan but we made sure that was agreed on a cross-party basis because we want to work in a collegiate partnership manner and I suppose when we've got policies in place there's no getting away from it because you live in your local community when you as soon as you go outside you know you'll get asked well I you know what's happened with that and those council houses are not have they not been built yet and you know my family's looking for a care package so you are able to I suppose at a local level kind of react a lot more quickly and kind of change when things are changing when we know we've got a crisis in social care what can we do differently and I suppose that's a bit more we're a bit kind of more nimble and a bit more agile to be able to do that whereas kind of at your level it might be a little bit more more difficult and challenging so I mean the the word that I represent large majority of the people don't look like me and you know I'm from an ordinary working class background and my family were you know practicing muslims and so a large percentage of the word that I represent is is is white middle class working class but we all have a we've got a commonality because we all care about that we want a good education system you know all those things that it's not just as a black woman that you know racism and discrimination I feel passionate about tackling that but there's all those other angles to us as you'd said earlier about social care and about health and wellbeing about transportation and local government funding all those things that also matter to us in that connection that you've got locally and I think maybe that's thinking about it a bit the sign of hope that I always think that's really fantastic so it shouldn't be that if you're a black minority person you only represent certain areas you should be able to stand you know anywhere and you know stand for election and and get elected so I mean that's the East London's one of the fastest growing local authorities in Scotland and we are becoming more and more diverse so that's fantastic that we're seeing that but it shouldn't be ruled out if you're a black and more ethnic person that you only stand in certain areas you know should be able to stand anywhere absolutely and I think like I think what I got from that was also that it has to be person centred and like that's I feel like that's what I'm hearing a lot is that you have to see them as people like that's the most important thing and in the day it's not just like kind of characterizing certain people or like looking at people as like certain groups they're they're all people and that's what the policies are there for is to help them so yeah thank you very much for those answers and I'm just going to ask if there's any more questions one last time okay one last one thanks I was just going to ask what advice would you give to people who are wanting to do race equality work in their kind of workplace knowing as we do that obviously structural racism kind of affects most cross sections of many workplaces and most aspects of society I'll have a stab at it as much as I can we've covered a lot in response to that already I think so I'm trying to sort of think of a fresh sort of way to look at it I think in any workplace sort of like a professional workplace will have policies and procedures in place so start with those and make sure that they are there and don't be afraid to scrutinize them because they may have been created invented years ago you often find that once you actually say where is the handbook and start looking at it they do need revised they do need updated they do need looked at and make sure that they're they're tight but by the same token there is the people as well don't just leave it to the brown person in the room and if you are that person of color that is interested in race equality absolutely grand that is fantastic but if you are not interested in race equality don't be shoved into it I've had many colleagues and I've had that pressure in education actually over the years was EAL now I value my English as an additional language colleagues very very highly and have worked in partnership with them it was an avenue that I was always sort of like pushed into why don't you do that why don't you do and I always wanted to be a mainstream teacher that's what I wanted it was important for me to have a class full of wanes in front of me and for it to be normalized was to have you know a teacher of color that could teach across all sort of subjects in primary school that was important to me but there was an overwhelming pressure and at times it suited me when people said oh well we're looking at this we're thinking of having an event for instance will you do it now it was sort of we did all that in the 80s and the 90s because we're the generation where if you wanted a job it had to be the you know equal ops that was it well equal opportunities aha you couldn't do anything else and it was sort of I mean I don't know I mean in those days the amount of samosa and sari parties that was the extent so that's what we've come from when it's addressing diversity inequalities issues in the workplace now of course it's it's moved on in many ways I know we're stuck in certain ways but we have moved on that these days you wouldn't get that but actually it wasn't that long ago where I was in a staff room and on an inset day we were provided the management paid for our breakfast rolls so you can see where I'm going with this one and it was that kind of thing of sort of you know oh we've put on breakfast for you you know isn't this great we've put on breakfast for you so it was bacon rolls and then there was there was bacon and potato scone there was bacon and egg and then there was bacon and bacon and I was like aha I can't do any of these and we still have this you know just a couple of years ago of like and you know just take the bacon off and I'm like no I can't do that and it was me that was felt to be awkward that I had created that awkwardness and tension and then I was ungrateful and I thought I'm not any of these things you know and then I was embarrassed I was mortified because I was just wanting to you know I thought oh so what did I do you know from that moment on I don't go anywhere near the buffet table in these kind of situations I just don't uh so I started sort of censoring myself in it so in the workplace there's all these kind of practices that you look at those are they inclusive or are they exclusive and it's putting that lens over everything is that if something excludes one person you can bet your bottom rupee that it's gonna exclude someone else as well actually um so good inclusive practice is actually healthy for everybody it doesn't exclude anybody and actually it doesn't take a lot of effort either you know you've got google you've got people you can speak to you get you're spot on about um if anybody no matter who they are want to do race equality work in their the institution they work on they have to um upskill themselves you have to read they have to look at what current policies are and you're quite right about things out of date because one of the issues with that case about the s2 you see was their equal ops was way out of date so even the institutions that you think are supposed to know better get it wrong you need to read all that you need to talk to people because one of the things that i think harms our work in race equality is people making the assumption that lived experience is enough you need to have lived experience absolutely and that will inform how you can look at what you should be looking at um and it really you know it sometimes trying to do something with the good intention can be more harmful so definitely reading look at the resources but also talking to other people and you know i'm sure many of us can talk about you know we were lucky that there was people and for me people like Anita you know there's other generations before us you know don't dismiss the older generation you know that institutional memory um i see things go wrong sometimes because people run with something that starts to grow arms and legs when actually all it needed was a conversation but because people didn't have the skills and expertise nuance and understanding of structural racism for instance you being the target you're the one that's the problem that's structural racism but so structural racism just bringing people a color around the room who don't have expertise that's a former structural racism too so it's about understanding all these nuances and not just saying i want to be a good person i want to do a support in running that and do you would you like to answer the question so quickly the comments that have been made and i think just making sure that those policies and procedures are are robust and that shouldn't be your that shouldn't be all of this shouldn't be your responsibility there's senior managers there to do that and what are um and i'll also look you know we've got policies and procedures in place but also look at people's actions you know how do they how do they um interact with with you know other other departments or the constituents how do they give them feedback i think that's that's that's really really important but it shouldn't it's only be your your responsibility but it benefits the whole organization when we get equality risk inequalities and inequalities issues right it benefits the whole organization it benefits everybody working in the organization and i'm more likely to access and use an organization when i know it treats his workforce really well it's got positive practices and and i can see that people have been treated well i'm more likely to access your services i'm more likely to buy services from you than ones where i think you know i've not i've heard they've got poor practices but when you've got good practice you know articulating that and clearly that this is a kind of organization we are we are an anti-racist organizations you know we do care about the local community and how what difference we can make i'm more likely to to support you and buy your services and and access you then you know if it's if it's not but walk back to and it connects this question that you just asked and the question you asked about hope what i do see which i think is great about the the younger generation is intersectionality is very natural to them in a way that we grew up with the protected characteristics so i'm still having to deal with people with the go but that's not for me without folk realising that actually everybody is a protected characteristic you know that that's the point of the equality legislation is it encompasses everybody but what i love about the younger generation and you know your question about hope is intersectionality is becoming such a kind of normal experience to them so you've got the equality legislation with the protected characteristics the tick boxes stuff but the inclusion and the inclusion is that stuff that is not in the legislation then you know loads of organizations are good at equality diversity but the inclusion is the bit they're not good at and i think the next generation is really kind of going to take that to another level we'll actually expect you to do that basically well thank you very much i think we've run off a bit on but thank you very much for all your answers and i think that was a great place to end it as well thank you very much for to our panel so coca Shamene and xandra for all of your really thoughtful answers that was really helpful especially for me and can i also take a moment to remind everyone to fill out the survey that you will receive automatically if you've booked via event bright or if you have a few paper copies of the survey at the back as well so that'd be very much appreciated if you could share your thoughts there and then can i also take this opportunity to remind you that there are a lot a lot more festival events taking place over today and tomorrow including discussions of the future of broadcasting at 11 and also talking to boys and men about gender based at 3 p.m. and also the future of scotland's art and culture at five and that's just a few of them so please do look online if you're interested please do join but thank you all very much for participating today and that's all from me yeah thank you