 Yes sir. Yes. Distinguished guests, I am a member of Krishna Kanta Khanding State Open University and all the esteemed participants are very good evening to you all. I, Darvi Dayan, on behalf of Vijay Kumar Pune School of Social Sciences, welcome you all to this lecture session on Reading the Northeast from the perspective of social entrepreneurship. I now request Honourable Vice Chancellor Sir to kindly give the inaugural speech. A very good evening to all of you. Let me take this opportunity to welcome you all to this evening session of our series of webinars, which have been organizing by the School of Social Sciences. In fact, Krishna Kanta Khanding State Open University has been trying to transform the challenges caused by the COVID pandemic into an opportunity in organizing a series of lectures inviting the prominent social scientists, prominent literature, writers, other social activists and researchers. In fact, it is indeed our privilege that during the last one year, we have succeeded in organizing many serious lectures by inviting many important social scientists, writers and other researchers, which probably would not have been possible had it been not pandemic because inviting somebody from Delhi, somebody from abroad and organizing this kind of lectures, it's quite, if you permit me to say even it's expensive, sometimes it's difficult because finding time adjusting, people coming, flying all the way to Guwahati, it's really difficult. But the pandemic at the one point has posed a challenge before us to continue the activity using the new technology, which has been, we all are become used to that. And exactly KK Handing State Open University been trying to transform the challenges into an opportunity and organize a very hectic kind of academic activity with prominent eminent scholars. So today, we are proud to have amongst us two very eminent social scientists. I think all of us know Professor Virginia's kaha and also Professor Malik from IIT Guwahati. In fact, on North East, the School of Social Science has organized other lectures. The other day, we had organized a lecture on officering in the North East. Basically, the colonial civil service activities by not only Indian officers, but also by British officers in the North East. And that was delivered by a historian, Bodhisattva Kaur from South Africa. And we are proud that we'll have one more lectures on North East. That is in a sociological issue. And we have invited Professor Kaha. I believe our scholars, faculty members will be greatly benefited with this lecture. And on behalf of the university, on behalf of all the faculty members, staff and the students, research scholars, I welcome Professor Virginia's kaha and Professor Malik to this evening webinar. With this, I formally declare this webinar inaugurated. Thank you very much. Thank you, sir. Your encouragement continues to be a key driving force. May I now request Professor Jaidu Korwa, Director, whichever of our P.S. School of Social Sciences, to kindly introduce the speaker and the chair. Sir. Thank you, Gargi. Honourable Vice-Chancellor Sir, our invited speaker, Professor Kaha. And chair and discussant for today's lecture, Sambit Malik from IIT, Guwahati. And all esteemed colleagues and also friends and dear participants and students. Good evening and welcome. It is my pleasure and privilege to welcome you all to the online lecture series organised by Kuzhokumar Vya School of Social Sciences, Kishnokandakandiko State Open University. This is the fifth lecture in the series. The idea of having these lectures is primarily to provide a platform to listen to and also interact with distinguished academics on diverse themes of relevance, importance and interest. The lectures are being hosted by different disciplines of our school. This lecture is being hosted by discipline of sociology. And I'm deeply grateful to Professor Virginia Skaka for accepting our invitation to speak to us this evening. Welcome, sir. Professor Virginia Skaka is one of the most well-known and distinguished sociologists of the country. He taught sociology in Northeastern Yale University for a very long period, starting from 1978 to 90. Then he taught in Delhi School of Economics from 1990 to 2011 and then joined this Guwahati and headed the Institute till 2016. And then after completion of his term as Deputy Director, he joined the school university as a professor of eminence. And currently he is a visiting professor at the Institute for Human Development in New Delhi. His academic and research interests include sociological concerns of plantation labors, development of tribal communities, agrarian structure and social exclusion. And he has written numerous books, articles, and some of the best knowns are perhaps economic dualism and structure of class. It was published in 1997. Then state society and tribes issues of post-colonial India. Then social exclusion, adverse inclusion, adiversities of India, forest lanterns, a collection of essays on solution for noticing India's tribal children, work, institution, sustainable livelihood, employment and labour market in North East India, interrogating structural changes. And very recently, last January, he has published the Handbook of Tribal Politics in India, published by SAIS. So you can actually have an idea of his academic interests and engagement. Besides writing and teaching, the Khaka has also been a member of National Advisory Council for Government of India, and also chairperson of high level committee for study of educational health and economic status of tribal communities in India, which is very famously known as a report of the Khaka committee. So we are very proud and also privileged to have Professor Khaka for today's lecture. So I, on behalf of the university and on behalf of the School of Social Science, take the honour and privilege of welcoming you, sir. And I'm also very pleased to welcome my longtime friend, Sambit from IIT Guwahati, who is a professor of sociology. He specializes in sociology of science and technology, as well as philosophy of social science, historical sociology and among other, you know, his engagement and interest. So he has been visiting faculty to JNU, Lund University, Sweden, and University of Vardaman. And I'm very thankful to him as well for agreeing to be with us this evening and sharing the lecture today, which will be delivered by Professor Khaka. So that much, father, I do, may I now request Professor Sambit Malik kindly to chair the program and take the proceedings forward. But Sambit, please. Thank you, Professor Borva. I must thank Professor Kondrapadas, Vice-Chancellor of the Krishna Contour and the State-Open University and Professor Jayadip Borva for inviting me to chair this very important lecture by Professor Vargenius Khaka. In fact, if you look at this, there is a generous gap between Professor Khaka's and my generation, I mean, almost 30 years or so gap. I first encountered, I mean, I first saw Professor Khaka when he was a vegetarian one, he was a visiting faculty at the University of Hyderabad Department of Sociology. At that time I was doing my master's in sociology at the University of Hyderabad. What excites me about Professor Khaka and the like-minded intellectuals, that what we have learned as students from Professor Khaka is basically he, they always have taught us how to interrogate, how to question, how to recognize the value of dissent. And if in the absence of dissenting voices, how society can lose the image of pluralist or society will lose its pluralist image. And in the absence of dissenting voices, we tend to look at the problem of social exclusion, perhaps it is, and this kind of social exclusion must be examined within the matrix of a class divided society, the kind of binary which has been grilling us for a long time between the heaths and the plains, between the tribes and the non-tribes. And I mean, you look at between various segments of the society and perhaps Professor Khaka is one of the front-runners in advocating for the interests of, advocating the interests of the marginalized. And though Professor Khaka's research interests and my research interests, they don't converge in fact, directly, but we always try to look at any phenomenon from the margins and that's where they converge. And without delaying much, I would like Professor Khaka to take the center stage and please deliver your lecture on reading the North East from the perspective of social exclusion or maybe from perspectives of social exclusion. Over to you, Professor Khaka. Thank you, Professor Sambit Malik who is chairing this lecture and honorable Vice Chancellor Professor Das and I'm extremely grateful to Joe Adib for this invitation to speak at this occasion. Well, let me at the outset say that this is a lecture which is, which I'm just thinking about it. This is more of my reflections of having lived in the North East for a long period of time. Of course, not continuously but at a regular interval and I was counting that probably I have almost spent nearly 20 years of my life in the North East at different occasions. And I've not really tried to write much on the North East for various reasons. But now I have been just thinking and trying to see if I can really bring out a sort of writing so it's the way in which I have looked at the North East and this is one of the ways in which I have been trying to do it. And therefore this lecture is, as I said, it's very exploratory and they put likely to be very descriptive. It is also likely to be very wide canvas and therefore is not really addressing very specific issues in the context of specific community or a specific region or a specific state. And to that extent, you may find that there's nothing analytical about my lecture. There's not much of insights that you may get it. But basically what I'm trying to do is that there's a need to reflect today the people of the regions from the lens of the social exclusion and it is more of an invitation to researchers who have been working on the North East, if they could really have sort of, you know, I will attempt to explore this from this lens, because for too long I feel that we have been studying, let's say, people in the North East, either in the form of communities or nationality, whatever we talk about them, is more as a community, as a collective and with more of a homogeneity and great deal of solidarity. But then you also find that the North East has enormously changed and one of the conspicuous feature which is emerging today, including in those societies which were historically traditionally considered to be very, very egalitarian, a kind of inequality that is emerging. And it is in that context you find that the study of social exclusion really becomes important, maybe an important initiatives to look at the community to which they belong or the region to which they belong and so on so forth. So my lecture will be in two parts. First, I will basically try to outline the lens of social exclusion and maybe it becomes, and then subsequently in the second part I will try to look at North East from this lens. Social exclusion is the term which became very popular since the 1980s. And this term social exclusion actually did not come from an academic side, but it came from a minister, French minister of social action. And he used the term excluded to describe just the people who are poor. So on the one hand he identified people who are poor, who are the people who are substance users who are elderly, who are aged, who are homeless, who are what is called sexual minorities and so on. So you find the range of groups who actually he considered to be socially excluded. And therefore they brought about a kind of factor in the social bonding of the French society, the fraternity which it claimed about as to how this got fractured because of the social exclusion and that kind of solidarity which they had in visage was really upset. And he used this term social excluded and since then the term social exclusion has become quite popular and it has been extensively used, let's say by the academics by the development practitioners by development agencies by NGOs, and it's a whole range of people who come from different disciplines. So in a sense, one finds that the social exclusion has become a kind of multi dimensional concept, and it accommodates various kinds of concepts which we used to use this either in sociology or in political science or in economics to understand, let's say, the dynamics of the structure and the processes of the society. So I think that is the advantage of the very handy concept and the extent it is really being used even today, you find even India in fact I think one of the, what is called the planning commissions talks about, you know, I think I don't exactly remember 11th or 12th plan commission report which says about addressing the questions of social exclusion. So it is a very important concept and this is an idea of this is a dimension which are taught in the many of the universities. In fact, I think the large number of universities have opened the centers for the center for the social exclusion inclusive policies, which all came around, let's say in the, in the early 2000s, I would call it 2000 onwards. So, so that's that's the kind of thing. Now, when we take the social exclusion, it primarily means a sort of a denial or make all the depravations of things which are really valued in a society. And I just show this to me know that broadly things that are valued in society are of three broad kinds, namely the income or wealth or the power and the status. Now, of course, the income and wealth is comes from different kind of sources and therefore the sources also becomes an asset. They are also the things which are really valid. And then power which is sort of a space for decision making and and and and status in a society where you have at least an owner or prestige rather than suffering from disabilities or disadvantages or stigma or untouchability and so on so that I think is something we generally all in society in each of our society you take it that we generally value value wealth and income we value power we value social status these are the broad parameters within which one can really look other dimensions as well. Now, this what is called this, in other words, you find when you take this social exclusion primarily focuses on groups and the collectivities is not so much an individual individuals only to the extent that they are a part of certain groups and communities are socially excluded when you're taking what taking groups and the categories who have experiencing deprivations were experiencing excluded who experiencing denial and so on and so forth. So that is what we really find and social exclusion has been a purpose of future in society and also in history. You find that it has been if you look at Indian society the Indian caste system what is it it is primarily a society which is, which is, which is characterized by social exclusion there are the strata which enjoys all the privileges, the strata at the bottom which is not really so and this is not something limited to India you can find also in Europe, let's say in the ancient period or even the medieval period even modern today that you have. So, but, so what do you find that if you look at the history, the social exclusion has been a feature and people never felt uncomfortable social exclusion in past, because social exclusion namely hierarchy in inequality was almost considered something desirable, something is good. And if you look at history, you find that, you know, there was no, this was considered as a good thing and desirable. Of course, at certain point of time, there are people who protested about it, but it didn't really crystallize in altering the dominant value of society, the value of inequality value of hierarchy continue to remain pervasive all through a long history of human society that and it is only around the let's say beginning of the French Revolution that you find that you know ideas began to change. We started asserting for the liberty equality and fraternity, and since then you'll find that there has been alterations in the way the values are going to change. And from the value of hierarchy inequality, we have moved the value of equality, we have moved the value of freedom, we have moved the value of justice, even to the extent of social justice. So there's a big departure, there's a big change that has come about. But all this change is primarily rooted in, so social exclusion if you really look at, then we try to see it as Professor Sambit was saying is that it's primarily you have to focus in the social inequality. So that is the genesis of social exclusion. If there's no social inequality, probably you will find that there may be not social exclusion or social excluded group. But I think it is the social inequality which faves the way for socially excluded. And social inequality you find it is not that it has gone away that we are still struggling with that and it is some to some extent it is inappropriate to think of social inequality as will vanish from the world. But then I think this is a problem and I think there's a need to address and that's why we are really talking about the social exclusion. So inequality is important and inequality in society as a society we know it takes varied forms. It can take the form of a class and class is a form of inequality. You can take the form of caste as is the case with India. It can take the form of race and ethnicity. Race is more of a physical feature and ethnicity is more of a culture but nevertheless that also becomes a basis of what is called social inequality and we all know about as to how the race has been an important dimensions of social inequality. So you find that you have class, you have caste, you have race, you have culture, you have gender which is pervasive. Even traditional society how say by egalitarian one may say that well there is any kind of inequality which is based on gender which is pervasive and you find that today you even find that religion is assuming a form of social inequality which you find that they are being disadvantaged in terms of less access to political participation or resource or employment and to the extent you find it becomes a social excluded group. So if you really would like to identify the social excluded groups let's say in the case of India or anywhere, these are the dominant forms that they have taken. I think even when you're talking about the Northeast, the social inequality in these forms may not be as constricted as elsewhere but nevertheless these are the emerging features they say as for the Northeast India is concerned. And therefore you find that one can maybe introduce the dimensions of the social exclusion perspective for the understanding of let's say the Northeast. So let me now just focus on the Northeast. You know social exclusion I just said that it addresses inequality and therefore addressing some extent disparity which may accrue because based on these kinds of classes but it does not address all kinds of disparity as a social exclusion. So if you find that well people are in different parts of the region, they are differently located, differently stand in terms of let's say wealth or income or political power. One may not necessarily talk them as a disadvantage or exclusion primarily means that it is a part of the social structure is a part of the social process. So if we are not really a part of the social structure and the social processes, then it is extremely difficult to talk of the social exclusion. Of course, what is that unit of the social structure that you would like to talk that you want to talk about village you want to talk about the tribe that you want to talk about the state that you talk about the, the larger Indian state or you want to the world global systems even under the global system people do use the perspective because you are talking about the system, the global system then countries really becomes a consequential fit and the relations of which and the kind of social structure and social process that work in fact give rise to kind of understanding of social excluded let's say in the context of the global phenomenon so basically therefore when we are talking about the social exclusion. We have to look at those, let's say, a unit, the unit of social has to be a system which could be a let's say social system or economic system or the political system or other kinds of the system, which we are part. And that may be taken as the unit of understanding or exploring social exclusion. So, so that is really important. In other words, you find that the study of social exclusion demands that the unit of exploring social exclusion has to be a system which is effective unit of economic, political, social, and the cultural kind of a system so that is what it is an important so we'll talk with the northeast if you just take it to me it doesn't really make sense, because northeast is a graphical notion is a graphical territory, no doubt that northeast when you talk about it is more than geographical notion at least it has emerged in post of the post independent India, because you know where in India you will find that there is a distinct administrative structure in the form of North East Council or the department of the North East Affairs or you have various kinds of North East development finance for finance institutions and so on. So do you find that there is a, there's an institution there's a political administrative institutions which primarily caters that kind of institutions you will not find in other parts of India. So there is but nevertheless, the North is not really an effective economic, political, and social systems of the people who are really part of it and therefore, when we're really talking about the North is then we have to locate it in the context of the political system that may be the state. And let's say it goes and sometimes you find community and political systems might overlap but often you find political system is a large, much larger economic system is much larger within which you find different groups and communities or different class or caste or you'll find ethnicities or gender dimensions will really come up so these are the things which I think is a very important and therefore I believe that when trying to look at the north is from the lens of the social exclusion. The reason becomes really problematic and probably at best one can really look at in terms of as to how resource allocation really takes place among the different constituents of the north is and therefore how ministry of a donor how does it really do it, but do you find that there is a kind of equity in terms of distribution of resources or even the north is counsel so therefore possibly because of these are institutions which are dealing with it, therefore one can really to some extent may be able to explore from the lens of social inclusion because there is some states which have been advantages and some states which have really been not really advantages, but but when we're really looking at the people. This doesn't really make a very strong sense in terms of an understanding that's not it. And therefore when we are talking about the north is to my mind, we have to really start with the political systems and here I'm talking about the states. So you have now eight consequence of the north is and if you are trying to understand the social exclusion, then one has to really take this space as the unit. And if one is really trying to do a comparison of the two states, then that's really again that is possible because you are looking formally in terms of the political as a those states are the part of the effect the effective economic and political and social unit in that sense, but then I think when we're talking about these, what is called the social structure which is emerged and they put provides a space for social exclusion. I think we have to then also look at north is historically because we know that social differences and social inequality is really becoming a very pervasive or constrictor speech at today, but it's much more striking today than maybe 50 years ago, or maybe during the colonial or even the pre-colonial period, but nevertheless, I think it is an important for us to historicize this whole whole what is called the historicize the region or people who now are into let's belong to different states in the context of the history that need to historicize and really look at what are the kinds of processes that we're really at this tip. So if you really look at the history of the north is does it mean that one can probably look at the lens of social exclusion. So even if you take, let's say he lives and let's say, which I claim to be very, very egalitarian. But all of those he lives were not of the same structure in terms of the political systems. There were some who had ships and ships autocratic ships and there were systems of let's say bonded labor, you find a sort of not exactly but a sort of the slave. And you find that women not really full members. So you find that even within that there were people there were categories of people who were not really full members of the society because social exclusion means that there are people who are denied. So, in other words, the membership of the society, the citizen of that community, they are not there because they are excluded and therefore they don't really become a full members. So even in a tribal society, if you look at traditionally historically, probably you will find that there's a element of social exclusion and that is and then from there you can really try to look at what are the processes through which most of the tribal societies who are correctly at these features, what kind of changes they have really gone through in the course of history. Similarly, you can take let's say the plains and let's say with the coming in what is called the north east experience, they were already pre colonial states. So even before the coming off the colonial rule, which centralized the administration but nevertheless there were three colonial states. And, for example, the kingdom or the state traditional state was one of the striking example or a home kingdom is a very striking example of the fact that there was already a state and state we all know that emerges at a certain point of time in history, where they say a private property formation really takes place as far as the marks and frameworks concern and therefore, but these were dominant, there were other states as well. I think even Zantia kingdom was a state with the coming of the British rule and other places I'm not very much familiar but So what do you find if you really take these states or these kingdoms, you will again find that there were an elements of stratification, there were elements of hierarchy, there were elements of division of labor, there were social differentiations. So if you really just take the home, as I said I'm not, I've done little bit of rating but I might really do. So you had kings, you had ministers, you had officials, again of a different level and you had pikes. So, you know, and pikes had to provide a service, you know, to the home state. Similarly, you find in the Mete kingdom, you had the Lalu, the service. So you find that the Metes were divided into four divisions and it's therefore, you find that they had to provide Lalu and 10 days, in the 40 days one has to really serve to the state. So you find that there is, so you find that the coming of the Crowland state, there was already a certain kinds of division, there's certain kinds of social differences or the kind of hierarchy. And you find that there were people who were privileged and there are people who were not really privileged and to that extent you find that even if you go back to the history, you find that there were a dimensions of a kind of open social exclusion. So one can really take these, but from there one can really start tracing the history as well of the scenes and the structure and the process. So from there you can really move the British and British, you know, the centralized administrative structure, large territory they had and they introduced many things. They introduced, let's say modern state and modern state with what is called the kind of services that it required was required in terms of education, certain level of education. So you find that now entering into the bureaucracy, not because you are, because you need certain kinds of level of reading and writing and kind of acumen in terms of mathematics and so on and so forth, that was there. So what do you really find that British introduced various kinds of institutions and state, colonial state was one of them and colonial state has to be mined. And therefore you find that mining of state employment and the colonial was very important. Now, if you look at the state employment in the colonial period, how do you really locate it in terms of let's say ethnicity in terms of caste, in terms of gender, in terms of let's say religion, how do you, or in terms of hills and plains, how do you really locate it? And if you really want to do a kind of explorations of this, if a historian wants to do it, whether there are available materials or not, but then I think these are possible ways into what extent you will find the colonial state at what period and what period things began to change etc. So these are all possible. So state employment became a very, very important and which was open to everyone but not really everyone can go and therefore you find lots of people really get excluded and therefore is only a certain sets of groups and communities who could really enter the colonial state. So you can try to relate if there was any connections with the let's say the pre-colonial state systems and whether you find that those who were part of the nobility, those who are part of the ministry, those officials, were there a possibility for them a direct entry or easy into the colonial state but others continue to be at the periphery of the colonial state. Similarly you find that they introduce various kinds of economic enterprise, plantation is one of them, but if you really look at the plantation enterprise itself against a very rigid. So you find this is stratified, the managers and invariably the whites during colonial period. So there was no possibility for even the Bengali and Assamese to enter into that. It all began later on but there's no sense. So you find that this excluded. So the managerial class was completely excluded let's say for the natives Indians and therefore you find that they can only aspire up to a job which is what you know basically a clerical. Upper division clerk, lower division clerk accountant. So that was the kind of jobs for them and if you look at the workers, they were again excluded from that because they didn't have them and they were all migrants. So you find that they were mostly the manual labor. So you can find that the division of labor with management, you know the manual labor, non-manual labor, but even non-manual labor you find that they were privileged like the managers and those who were not really that privileged. And you have the large sum of the working class who even today you find that they find very difficult to enter into even the staff and forget about the managerial class. So you can see as to how can open up an enterprise and so similarly probably we can look at the enterprise which was engaged in the oil and natural gas. Exploitation, let's say in the northeast and one can again look at an examiner in the sense who are the kinds of people who never found, let's say an outlet into this kind of enterprise never found included themselves in this enterprise. And if they did not what were the reasons as to it because it's not only that they were not but we have to find it out what were the reasons what were the process as to why they got really excluded from it. So this becomes a sort of a dimensions within which one can really look at the colonial state and you can look at even a gradient structure. You know if you go to the western part of Assam, these were all land lordism, they were the lords and therefore under them there were so many tenants and you find eventually the circle of one who was sustaining most of them. In case of the other parts of the class, you had Rayatmari settlement, but Rayatmari settlement, the people who were lords, but they again did not cultivate the land at least out to others and had let's say tenancy occupancy tenancy, some did not even have the occupancy tenancy and they had no rights, they can be thrown anytime. So you can see that you can take any sector and you can really locate that how this different kind of structure, different kind of hierarchy which emerged either in the plantations or in let's say oil and natural gas and exploitation or a gradient structure or in the bureaucracy, how did they really stand and this provides an interesting opportunity for us to explore. So, but then, then we have been the post independent India and a post independent India is opened up because of independence, there is a restriction of the society and you had, because no longer colonial state it was an state which was trying to build a kind of a socialistic pattern of society and therefore, you know, taking off, let's say the problems are addressing the problems of the people, ordinary people, therefore you bring a land reform, bring about other kinds of reform and in the way you're trying to address the aspects of educations, health and so on so forth. You're trying to address in terms of as to how you integrate the people into the state institutions through representations in terms of reservations and all that. So these really starts, this had began, let's say around the 1930s, but it really culminated in the post independent India. So if you really look back today and we want to try to understand the social exclusion, then we have to look at these institutions. So first of all, we have to look at the state and a state, we are no longer, let's say pre colonial colonial state, even during colonial state there was a governor general or governor and his council. Subsequently, there were provincial council. So, you know, one can really look at the context of the members of those councils who were because if the governor general or governor and council, not everyone could become a member of the council you needed a certain level of education, or it needed certain size of land, you landed property, you have to be a gentleman only then you'll be able to enter. It was not an adult suffrage of everyone was sitting when everyone could really become members. So these were there, but in the post independent India, we have moved away from the ideology of hierarchy and inequality to ideology of equality, freedom and justice. And to that extent, therefore, you find that we have opened the institution to the large chunk of people, no, every segment of the public business, and I'm not really going into what happened, but then now coming to the Northeast. So, when you look at this so you have no state states who have all state legislature. And that is the highest decision making body of the state. Now, how, how, how they've been, how inclusive is this. Particularly if you look at Northeast, even the highest decision making body of the state is exclusive, particularly to look at the gender. Even today, if you go to the other or even Assam or people are you go anywhere. What is the percentage of women who are members of the legislative council. And where is it so they don't have a share in the decision making they are remain really excluded from it. And we can really look even in case of tribes if you look at like say, Nagaland and major armies exclusively tribal state. But the tribals are just a tribe is a category but there are different tribes and the different tribes have different size of the population. You can find at a tribe which match how a large very small size of the population. Thus, they get represented in the institutions of the legislature that these are issues which are there. So, this is possible you can go to the local self government, and you have let's say in the case of the Northeast autonomous district council, autonomous district council again you really have to look at it. Even in the 50s or 60s, even you look at today you'll find that again, the presence of women is so conspicuously absent. So, there is even in the Northeast you'll find that the exclusion is there and exclusion you find that exclusion which was there in history in a tradition is in fact really in force, let's say even in modern institutions, although we are all supposed to be open to, let's say, freedom and equality and fairness and justice so we have problems really come up. I can understand it as to why this kind of protection is there, but that is a questions which can be addressed at a different level. So, you find there, I think, so even autonomous district councils, whether it is of the 60s, I'm not so much of familiar with the other non 60s, but then one can really explore these. But I think the place where you find that it is in the decision making process, particularly at the local self government, I think is most inclusive probably you'll find panchayatirad institutions. You can take either in Tripura or you take, let's say, in Assam or you can maybe Arunachal for this. You know, where you find that a mechanism has been worked out that where you find marginalized groups will have a space in terms of reservations. And even within that, there is a space for women in terms of rotations. So 33% of the seats in panchayatirad institutions have invariably have to be here marked for women. So that really becomes as much more inclusive but this has been worked out and therefore you'll find in the panchayatirad institutions whether there's a possibility of introducing this kind of mechanism, let's say in a promised district council or the state is something I think to make these institutions more inclusive, I think it is important for the people in the north is to really think and deliberated upon it rather than eventually getting it imposed from the elsewhere. So that is also not possible because any parliament act is not applicable, let's say in case of Nagaland or Mizoram or even the six equal districts. So these are probably but therefore you find that it is people themselves have to think and work out as to where they really want to go. The same I think in the state employment now. I think again one can really take the state employment and look at that, you know, what is the extent of share that different groups represent different kind of activities, what extent they have a share and this again becomes an interesting to study. So it's not only every state can be the state employment can really be explored in terms of this. So that is there. But then one can go to education institutions, you know, just look at educations and education institutions how inclusive are education institutions, how inclusive are the health institutions that you know, how in terms of its regional distributions or in terms of distributions within the state how inclusive they are for education institutions, primary schools or primary health centers, are they really distributed in terms of equity over the regions over the state, or you find that there's very heavy consequences of these institutions certain place, and you find there are other regions where you find that they are really excluded and therefore could actually you find shortfall of health centers and so on. And similarly you find, so these are the problems that really come up. So these are, in other words, one can do a study of social exclusion by taking into account the institutions, the institutions of decision making institutions or employment institutions of educations institutions of, let's say with catering to the health and various other kinds of institutions that one can take these even let's say, not necessarily government, but you can also explore let's say, non state institutions, how inclusive they are. Let's say the state, the non state enterprise, maybe you can take tea plantations and really look at how inclusive they are for there are other enterprises might be there. So one can really look at that. So these are the dimensions in terms of which one can really look at the social exclusion. And there's other way, and I think I'll come into the last five words of my discussion is that in terms, we do also study exclusion or inclusion in terms of the level of development indicators. And development indicators, you can take in terms of economic development indicators in terms of, you know, the primary, what's called sector secondary sector, tertiary sector because you find that these sectors are also hierarchized in terms of, and also gives more sure and better income and so on so forth. So what is the proposals of people belong to different groups and communities who are located on these different sector, secondary sector, tertiary sector primary sector and so on so and one can also look at in terms of employment in terms. So this is occupational so how they are occupational located, but one can look at in terms of the other also in terms of income in terms of wealth. You know, generally you find economies have tried to understand socialism primary in terms of the people living below poverty line. And therefore you find that in this, there's a high level of people below poverty line in this community or in this what is called with respect to this, that's what they do it. But then I think one can really look at different economic indicators, maybe the people below poverty line maybe income, what is called different level of income different kind of assets, which are the sources of income. So one can really take that and also try to do a kind of what is called exclusive social exclusion or inclusive kind of studies, and this is possible in the social sector educations I talked about in terms of literacy in terms of let's say people going for higher education in terms of concentrations of higher educations and therefore products and therefore they are really able to having done that the products and they are really able to enter into the state employment because you don't have higher education probably very difficult for us to enter into state employment and so education is the requirement essential so if there is an exclusion there, then there's people who will never be able to enter into those kinds of institutions and similarly, we can talk about the health and so on so these are, as I said, these are the source of the, now these are problems, but I think these are issues which have come which we need to give thought to it, we need to talk about it, we need to discuss about it. You know I have to find it out, of course it poses a great deal of problem because Joydeep will be able to say is that data, for example, economists depend a lot on NSO data or agricultural sciences data, so whether those data are there, now these are problems, so maybe one can do historical but if one really trying to do it, whether we have a data fall back on that and that data I'm not very sure because I have not done, but then data is required how much state has able to generate data across is not only what is called the aggregate data but how that aggregate data is divided or said across different groups and different communities or different regions that I think is if it is there, there's a possibility of working on that and so much of the social exclusion status and the sense of possible only through a research initiative in terms of digging the whatever resources that is there in the documents in the writings and let's say in terms of your own survey or in terms of your own what is called, let's not graph your participant observations or whatever, that is possibly one of the ways in which one can really do it because I'm not very sure what kind of data are really available. So these are opportunities are there, so there are constraints I can understand it's not that easy but one has to find out what are the ways in which at least one can make an effort to understand the region, the people from the social exclusion perspectives. Now, if this is the case then how do we really address them, what kind of the inclusive policies, broadly you find that you know inclusive policies, let's say when one is really talking about social exclusion, broadly one can find four types. One is that well if there is a, if there is a legal restrictions in the sense that there are certain people who are prevented from entering into it because of the customs, or because of some legal, what is called the implication legal they don't have legal rights. Then one of the ways to address the inclusive policy is to do away with all those laws, which are discriminatory and they will try to make a law, which is possible for everyone to enter into it that is the one. If there is the other is a post you can take a policy which is which is primarily oriented towards a marginalized maybe let's to a poor. So you are or you can do labor as a whole. So one can take a policy which is neutral is not really targeting, let's say either religious minority or targeting a tribe or the caste or the gender but you find so in the process one expects that there will be trickle down effect and people will be able to take advantage of it when that is another one. The third one is something which even though you have the pro oriented pro poor oriented or pro marginal oriented you find that there are social dimensions there's cultural dimensions and not therefore everyone will be equally or effectively able to access that and therefore sometimes you find that you have a policy which is very specific oriented to certain specific groups, maybe you can say oriented only towards gender. So that is another dimensions in which and thereby you are trying to see as to how we make them an inclusive partner into the institutions or in the development status. And finally, I will say that there's affirmative action program and affirmative action particular reservation so if you don't do anything you impose a reservation. For this group and that group and that group and to address, let's say a kind of socialism. For example, even in Meghalaya or even work out certain kinds of strategies. For example in Meghalaya, what will be the share of the girls or Zen peers and the classes or Nagaland in different regions, or even in Assam, the women. They have worked it out so trying to make a more inclusive kind of an institution so these are processes are there, states are trying to do it, but I think there's still a lot of gaps and it is to us as a social scientists and as to how we really address and how we really make an interventions and to what extent the power interventions are actually taken care of by the people who hold the power in this case. So thank you very much for your listening and this is where I would like to end it. Thank you. Thank you very much, Professor Khakha. Actually, am I audible. Yeah, yeah. Thank you. In fact, Professor Khakha has made one thing easy for me as a discussant in the way that precisely because of the clarity that he brings in to his lecture. But at the same time it has he has made my role very difficult as a discussant, precisely because of the kind of range and depth that he brings in that I have always noticed throughout my association with Professor Khakha, whether it was at the University of Hyderabad or for some time at East Guwahati and then I at Guwahati in 2017 or so. Very quickly I will try to wrap it up. I mean, what is very distinct in this lecture is that the way Professor Khakha has divided his lecture into two parts, one from the lens of social exclusion and the other how to examine the Northish from the lens of social exclusion. I mean overall social exclusion and then Northish from the lens of social exclusion. Okay. I mean the way the concept of social exclusion originated initially in France in the 1970s. In the area of poverty and deprivation studies, the way it refers to the processes which make individuals and groups vulnerable and marginal and ultimately exclude them, if I have to use Amrita Sen's term, exclude them from the freedom to exercise their capabilities. And over a period of time the study on social exclusion has gained currency in the political discourses as well as interventionist agendas. Precisely because as Professor Khakha said, if there had been no social inequality, there would not have been any social exclusion studies. And the way Professor Khakha has mentioned how social exclusion is multi-dimensional or socio-economic, I mean encompassing collective as well as individual resources, how it is dynamic. I mean that refers to a process or movement or trajectory from full integration to a condition of multiple exclusions. And it is also relational in the context of I mean how social exclusion entails social distance or isolation or rejection or humiliation, lack of social support networks and denial of participants. And it is also active in that people and processes do that, do the excluding and also it is relative to context. And species of exclusion, spatial exclusion, then he was trying to look at the origin of family, private property and the state by angles. I mean that Marxist framework that he was trying to sketch and noticed particularly the way he tried to look at the region as problematic. Resource allocation is problematic. Maybe citizenship in today's context, since last couple of years, it has gained much currency in the political discourses rather dominant political discourse. The way eccnocentrism, I mean all prejudicial attitudes between our groups and their groups, I mean this kind of binary, this kind of dichotomy, which is based on a a regime of the biological school of the evolutionary theory. I mean this is also a byproduct of colonial state. And there are also controversies within North East, no doubt about it. And what capitalism as a mode of production has done to North East India so far as social exclusion is concerned. I mean not simply North East India, I mean throughout the world that the relationship between nature and human beings has been altered. I mean there is a transition from faculty of contemplation to faculty of control. And this is also a byproduct of Western capitalism, no doubt about it. And egalitarian regime, the way it has been pushed that no North Eastern states are egalitarian. It has been, it must be interrogated, it must be critically examined. Homogeneity, North East as a homogeneous category that also must be interrogated. What I mean to infer from Professor Kaka's lecture is that is also that the stereotypes must be interrogated. And the precise and these stereotypes are not simply culturally embedded, but also they also have deep economic roots. That's why Hamzya Allah we once said that in pursuit of modernity we tend to or in the process of modernization rather not simply modernity but process of modernization that we tend to examine, we tend to treat all societies as similes, homogeneous societies. That's why this kind of this process of modernization has failed to examine the nature of the state itself and the location of the state within the matrix of a class divided society and also the relationship of the state with various other contending social forces. And social exclusion must be situated in this kind of a broad framework and the way Professor Kaka is also dealing with not simply data, but what kind of data, how to collect data. Perhaps the kind of the hitherto existing data collection processes also has some large processes have some flaws. We must overcome these barriers to look at alternative ways to collect data. And maybe we have to go beyond conventional modes of data collection processes now mainstream data collection processes so that some some alternatives must be created some alternatives must be painted in our imagination in our day to day research in our. I'm not using imagination in a very lemon language but I'm trying to dwell upon see right means the sociological imagination, at least the promise to build alternatives. Maybe I'll stop here, and then I would like to invite certain questions from the participants, any reflection, I mean, even in support of what Professor Kaka said and or in opposition to what I also said. Over to others. We have some questions in the chat box. I would like to pick those. So the first one is from Professor Vorkorua. So he in fact has two questions in the first one he writes exclusion in North East, indeed has two faces. One is exclusion of North East from the rest of the country, and the other is exclusion within North East. Do you think that exclusion within the region is getting obscured by the narrative of exclusion of the region from the rest of the country in general, that is the first one. He has a second question. Why there is a political, sociological architecture of social exclusion. There are similar architecture of inclusion as well. So, how do you see these two processes intersecting and interacting in North East. There are two, three questions more. Shall I read out those questions or shall we go one by one? Read all those questions. Okay. Professor Kaka is a test player. You can pose questions. The next question is from Deep Dutty Kaur. I want to know, he says, I want to know about your views on TAA and how it may influence North East region's inclusion or exclusion in terms of sociopolitical fabric in context of national unity. The next question is from Hengam Riba. The person says, what according to you is the reason for social exclusion of Adibasi tea garden worker in North East. Finally, then we have, what are your views on within group exclusion, not necessarily only gender basis, but also class based. I am most particularly interested to know about class based inequalities with tribal societies. Can these inequalities be understood as exclusions? If not, then what are the leading lines between inequalities and exclusion. Finally, we have from Redushkita Dora. Sir, do you think that the pandemic has further intensified social exclusion and isolation of the marginalized groups in terms of accessibility to healthcare? So these are the questions that we have right now. Well, coming to the exclusion of North East. Surely, I think the way in which North East has been seen, let's say particularly from the outside of the Northeast as something in terms of reason. And therefore it gives you, it is a reason which becomes very important and in the process you find that the people or different kind of diversity is completely overlooked. And I do believe therefore to one extent, the way in which the reason has been seen to some extent has obscured the study of social exclusion, let's say in the Northeast that I would agree with that. Now on coming to the political and sociological architecture of exclusion and also political architecture of inclusion and how they intersect. Well, I'm not really given as interesting questions and I think I need to think about it. Yes, there is an exclusion. But then the, how much, what is it called the inclusion, the architects or political social inclusion which is already there. And how they have been really addressing that to my mind till now doesn't seem to be visible and maybe it is busy, it is there and that's why you'll find that that kind of inequality is not as striking let's say in the Northeast that's that's possible so see the So because of the larger also the presence of the larger what's called architects of inclusion probably may have also led to some extent mellowing down off the striking inequality that may be there. Now, I think it is interesting questions and I need to ponder over to need to think about it at the moment I'm really not in a position to answer that, but to some extent. Yes, the I would say inclusive dimension to some extent yes maybe reduce the inequality in the region. Now my view on CC, what's called citizenship actor. Well, I have not really done much reading on that and you know it is surely the migration has impacted Northeast like anything. There's no doubt absolutely no doubt about it. And the question is now that they have been. So if they have come up and cut off the danger there is a law and there's a consequences and it is upstate how they deal do it. But much of the migration which has come let's say colonial period in the early post independent India know that it has impacted the Northeast and I think the resources grants probably is one of the reasons. That's there, but then those who have really come from an outside, but also you find that they are not really the ones who are holding the political power and the economic power and the social power they are probably even the most marginalized sections of the society. It's in the context of Assam if you really look at, you know, the tea garden workers almost you talk about what is called nearly a crowd or something people estimated, but then I think they are very vulnerable they are not really around. Similarly, I'm not really going to immigrants and immigrant but if you look at the Muslims who are delivering a story area and all that, probably they are one of the most marginalized in that sense of the term. So, so the problems are there and you may abuse, you know, is there but then sometimes what really also happening that if people have been here such a long period of time, for most let's say 100 years or 150 years or that of course is not there in this is more of the recent one. But even then when they are here for almost 30 years or 30 years, how do you really deal with it, how state really also deal with it, these are all problem issues are there. One will be a human rights perspective and you know the other things at the same time as human rights perspective of the people from the region in many ways and really comes into kind of a collision conflict. And it becomes very, very difficult to take a very nuanced positions on this kind of context as someone who is being in the north is but I'm not really for the north is and therefore you know, I might have a somewhat different than the way people from the north is really feel In the case of the state social exclusion is there because nothing in the sense that in order to move up in order to have social mobility, you have to have income you have to have educations you have to have a better quality so that you are able to have a saving and use that income. Now so you, we all know about it but the primary school doesn't work the health infrastructure is deteriorated. And I have written a piece in economic and political and therefore I think we have never addressed their social and economic development. And I think to some extent there is this kind of legal constraint which there which doesn't allow people to work in the two states as maybe activists at the NGOs in development. Or you find even a state, you know, because they are T state, you have restriction on the entry. Now these are all problematic issues and I think so long as there is no restructuring of the plantations, I think the issue of the plantation will remain really where it is. And I think the Indian state and the state government they really need to to my mind restructs I've written a piece in economic and political weekly probably last year, where I've tried to put my mind into it and if anyone is interested they can really have a look at it. Yes, I think in case of tribals we only talk about gender, but the fact is, yes now the economic inequality is really emerging very soft. And you find that large number of people who are either considered to be a poor or who are almost let's say in the informal sector they don't have really regular job. And so you find that there is a kind of group or categories which are emerging, which do not necessarily have that kind of an access with other side and that is the class inequality has come up and therefore, as in the case of friends society where he is talking about the poor, or even the substance user or even the homeless as the social excluded group. I think these are social categories, these are emerging social categories which are not individual alone now. There's a large number of people who share who have this kind of features and therefore the social categories they have emerged as it. And therefore, once they emerge as a social categories then you have to really address these issues. And I think in case of tribal society it is high time that inequalities become very striking and some reason some states are much more striking than other state but it is there. And then there's no way to skip but to address it, you can't really build a kind of inequality, you know, and create a sort of a very unjust society you always talked about tribal as egalitarian ethos and all that. The early ethos may be there but the kind of social structure of inequality that we have begun to create, there's a mismatch now. At least in other societies you had earlier in the past they had what is called hierarchical values but moving increasingly to egalitarian. And where I had an egalitarian rivals now but increasingly we are moving into the hierarchical kind of egalitarian kind of structure. These are problematic issues. It's not that I'm not saying that the ideology has seen ideology problem may not value of it is still there. But then I think there is a disharmony between what we really think and what is really happening. There was the case earlier in the past there was harmony between what people thought and what was there. There was a harmony between what they thought and what was the structure. And today post independence you find there is a difference between the harmony and the structure because now we are for the ideology of quality but structure is very much hierarchical. So similarly kind of things that you're emerging in case of the north is egalitarian values in case of perhaps but then you find that they're hierarchical in equal structure which is emerging. And I think this need to be addressed. This is a dimension of social exclusion. Thank you. I have one final question. I'm sorry if I pronounced the name wrong. So the person says, at the time when the state is talking institutional responsibilities, especially after 1990, how reliable is it for the excluded to put their faith on the state. Of course it's a very serious questions because after 1991 up to we have moved to what you call the liberalizations, privatizations and globalization. The role of the state is declining and you know more and more you are giving opportunity to the private players and it is for the north is as to how they really think about it. What I've, what I've seen is that well, in case of the peninsula or India displacement and dispositions were part of the since the 50s and 60s and it has expanded, but that dimensions in entering into the northeast and sometimes I feel the political elite in the northeast. Again, in terms of trying to have a growth in terms of developing structure I think they're trying to invite that but in the process you are also going to dispossess and displace people and becoming a margin as how best you're really able to handle them is a resource which are there. Till now, I think the north is in terms of deprivation and dispossessing not as striking as elsewhere, but if these are allowed to happen without adequate safety, safety, then you find that you are going to create a situations which will be almost a deflication of what has happened elsewhere. And I think it's true the state is not able to generate an employment and they were shrinking and that's the reason people are actually moving out in terms of employment and probably in order to bring about an employment and bring about the growth. Therefore you find political class are trying to enter into it. So these are multi dimensional problems and I think, you know, if you want to, if you want not to grow, then you have to sort of reconcile to the fact that your living standard must be very hard. But if you want to enhance your living standard, then you need growth, you need money, your income, you need development. So these are these are dilemmas which are there and I think one cannot really give a wrong answer the right answer these are issues which really needs to be thought about by the political class by the civil society, organizations by academics, researchers and so on. So there has to be partnership in trying to think of what kind of development that the North is really wants station North is really what it cannot be left only to the political class I think there is a need to be much more a dialogue between as I said academics, researches from the development practitioners and NGOs and activists. Otherwise, just trying to ignore them and try to move it. I think it is not a good idea. Thank you sir. May I now request Professor Sambit Malik to kindly sum up this discussion and present a concluding remark. Okay, thank you. I have actually made the final remarks. I mean, I must thank Professor Kaka for an enlightening lecture. Actually, I have, we have witnessed Professor Kaka, not simply as a classroom picture but also as a public intellectual. Okay. And when I say public intellectual in its true spirit. Okay. And the way it helps researchers gain strength from the kind of deliberations which have been made by Professor Kaka is enormous and I'm sure and the young research scholars will gain a lot from this kind of very well researched documents that Professor Kaka has produced over a period of time. He's, I mean, intellectual ability is fast rate, fast rate mind. And I'm sure we'll also get some other opportunities to interact with Professor Kaka both formally and also in non-formal contexts. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks a lot. Thank you so much, sir. May I now request Dola Borcutiki to offer the photo of thanks. Thank you, Gargi. Am I audible? Yes, yes. Okay. Hi, Dola Borcutiki. On behalf of Sujji Kumar Bhunya School of Social Sciences, Krishnakanta Khandikul, State Open University would firstly like to express my heartfelt thanks and gratitude to Professor Virginia's Kaka Sir for his very, very enlightening and thought provoking lecture. Thank you, sir. I also express my gratitude and thanks to Professor Sambit Malik Sir for chairing this webinar and also for his enriching insights on the theme of the webinar. I thank our Honorable Vice Chancellor, Professor Kandarpa Das Sir and all the authorities of the university for constantly encouraging us to organize this kind of webinars and enabling us to enrich ourselves academically. I thank the IT team of our university for their technical support and making this session a glitch-free experience. Lastly, I thank all the participants for their active participation, for being with us this evening and encouraging us with their participation. Lastly, thank you all. Thank you once again. With this, we wind up for today. Good night. Thank you. Sambit, how are you? Yeah, I am doing well, sir. Is it online or offline? Thank you, sir. Online, online. Everything is online.