 My name is Amin Saqqal, Director of the Center for Arab and Islamic Studies at the Australian National University. With me I have the Honorable Hamid Ansari, the former Vice President of India, a very distinguished diplomat as well as a scholar and of course with a very credible public service career behind him. Mr. Ansari, welcome to the AENIA media. Thank you. Thank you Amin. Thank you for being... Given that you have had a very colorful and eventful career, how do you think that the world has changed during your time? Well, I am a man of the last century considering that I finished my university in 1959-60. I started my diplomatic service in 1961 and finished in 1999 and thereafter I have done so many other things. So I can really talk more about the last century and partially about the first decade and a half of this century. And how do you think that the world has really changed from the 20th century to the beginning of the 21st century? Or are we really witnessing a big shift from the... or power shift for that matter from the West to the East? Well firstly the world has changed in this technological sense which is most obvious and visible. Whether thought patterns have kept pace with the technological change, I am not so sure. And I am constantly reminded of what the philosopher Hegel said that the owl of Minerva begins to fly only with the falling of the dust. Well the owl of Minerva hasn't quite started flying yet and as we have seen in the last 15-18 years of the present century, human wisdom in greater measure could have done things in a very different way and would have saved a great deal of misery. So but do you see a dramatic shift from the West to the East in terms of power politics as well as overall balance of power? Oh the shift had started much earlier. The shift had started really with the decolonisation process. The liberation of great many countries starting with India of course in 1947. And the neighbourhood of India right up to Indonesia, Malaysia, in Asia and last but not the least the great eruption of freedom movements in Africa. And you have seen what has been India's role in this? Oh India has been in the forefront of this. Absolutely in the forefront for two or three very obvious reasons. One the leaders of the Indian freedom movement were very aware of the world outside. People like Gandhi, people like Nehru, they knew what was happening in the world outside and they were very active. In fact it was the freedom of India which set the pattern for freedom of a great many other countries. And as vice president I have travelled a good bit in Africa, East, West and Central and everywhere the same compliment was paid that you were the flag bearer, you showed us the paths and we followed. And where do you think India is heading now? Oh India is doing very well technologically. We are right up front as far as modern technologies are concerned. You would have heard or read about the Indian mission to the Mars space program. It's one of the great success stories. We were able to do it at first shot and at a fraction of the cost which other space powers have incurred. You have served for two consecutive terms and for that matter it has been unprecedented as vice president of India and more importantly you are a Muslim. How do you see the relations between Muslims and Hindus and India and how is that really progressed over the years? Well first thing first India has a Muslim population on last count a little over 185 million which makes India definitely the third possibly the second largest Muslim population in the world. I mean the first is Indonesia the second could be either India or Pakistan or Pakistan or India. So Indian Islam and Muslims in India are not a new phenomena. This is not like what has happened in first world war 2 in Europe for example or United States or Canada. Muslims have been there for over a thousand years and they have been part and parcel of Indian life they have integrated well and they continue to be an important segment. They are 14.3% of the total population of India. But there may have been some challenges over the years. Oh yes the challenges have been there all the time the challenges were starting with the advent of the British in the beginning of the 19th century the process which was completed around the middle of the century. I mean the British formally took over the rulership of India in all parts and that meant you know strategic change cultural change because the Muslim ruling class in many parts of India not all parts in many parts of India suddenly found itself completely. And do you see a bright prospects for the continuation of relatively peaceful coexistence which really existed or future. Oh yes, yes mind you India with its population of 1.3 billion huge population there are always some kind of social tensions or the other. There may be economic tension there may be just interpersonal tensions sometimes they take the form of community tensions but by and large in terms of the Indian thought process and governmental policies the approach is to promote cooperation to promote conciliation where there is need for conciliation. But I suppose one thing which really served India very well it is its democratic framework and the political pluralism which really exists within that framework. Absolutely I think we can take credit without being immodest about having done it way back 70 years ago the constitution making started one year before the British left that was 1946 they left in 47. We completed the making of the constitution by middle or end of 1949 promulgated the constitution in January 1950 and since then it has been the same constitution and the same institutional structure that was put in place we've been through 16 general elections innumerable state elections democracy has become almost part of the Indian DNA. So it's very important that politics is institutionalized in India. Oh very much so very much so it would be very remiss of me not to ask you a question about the state of relations between India and Pakistan how do you see that the relationship is going now well between neighbors there are periods of joy and there are periods of sorrow right now I would wish it to be different I think we are going through a bad patch bad patch in the sense not of fighting but of great deal of tension in relations ultimately it all boils down to one thing we've been having trouble like so many other countries in the world and having trouble for variety of reasons of people from coming across the border or being encouraged from across the border in acts which are unlawful terrorism is a phenomena which is well in its modern manifestation it's not a new phenomena it's always been there ancient times we had a great political strategist we call him the Machiavelli of ancient India Chanakya who wrote a book on state craft called Arthur Shastra and he described terrorism as secret war now you had in the Middle Ages in Central Asia the assassins but I suppose to confront terrorism there is a strong need for cooperation between India and Pakistan well there is need for cooperation there is need for contestation because you see practical state craft always operates at multiple levels there is a formal level in which everybody's swears by the Constitution the Charter of the United Nations there are no two views about it but there are other levels at which countries operate and India Pakistan are the only ones it is true of every country there are subterranean levels where you try to drive the point home by making the other person feel uncomfortable but we see a viable resolution of the conflict between India and Pakistan mind you the last war we fought was in 1971 so we've had a long period of peace we've had lots of tensions but the communication has never really stopped even today when there is no formal communication the certain agencies of the government continue to be in touch with each other to ensure that things don't go out of control as my last question may ask you what's your assessment or your general assessment of the Muslim world and where the Muslim world is going from your perspective the Muslim world is in chaos quite honestly and when you say Muslim world you mean there are two meanings which can be taken one is Muslim countries or countries with Muslim majorities they can start from Morocco in the west come all the way down to Indonesia Malaysia Brunei in the east the central portion North Africa and West Asia people call it Middle East in India it has never made sense to us to call it Middle East because for us Middle East is beyond beyond Singapore we call it West Asia which is a geographical description and this region has been in turmoil it has been in turmoil for a variety of reasons it will take a little time to dilate on that the fact is that it has a certain centrality with regard to the rest of the world and particularly with regard to the Western world and because of that proximity and centrality it has always been the target of Western political overtures starting with classical age of European imperialism and it has continued in different forms to this day. What do you think a country like Australia or what role a country like Australia can play in terms of really improving the relations or the tense relations which at the moment exist between the Muslim domain of a talk to talk about it in that sense so which is very pluralist and particularly the West. You say the whole question is are you sane or are you obsessed there is a great deal of talk these days about you know well to use a current expression Islamophobia because that's a counter question to what was said in West Asia as Islamism now there's nothing new about either Islam as a religion has been around for 15 centuries Muslim people have been around most of the time this is a history of peaceful living peaceful cooperation there have been periods of tension you can go back to Crusades in West Asia you can go back to post-colonial period there have been times when countries in West Asia have been seen as great allies of Western powers enemies of Eastern powers there have been times when the position has been completely reversed so it is more to do with geopolitics rather than with religion but we think there is a need for a country like Australia to engage in certain foreign policy actions which could really contribute to the improvement of relations between the Muslim domain and particularly the West. Yes as long as it is based on sound principles Australia is a founding member of the United Nations subscribes to all the all the principles of the United Nations but sometimes you tend you're also a member of various alliances some of those alliances have gone in different directions at different times this morning's Canva times carries an article talking about the horrendous mistake that Australia made in West Asia particularly in relation to Iraq and saying that despite knowing now all the consequences of that mistake the matter has yet to be discussed publicly politically so you know the point is what where do you take your position do you want to be a member of an alliance right or wrong or do you want to be an country in your own right which you are and make your own judgments in India we have always taken the view that we will not be part of alliance and we'll be friends with everybody but we will not be part of alliances because being a member of an alliance in a formal sense means signing away your freedom to make your own judgments we are we adopted that approach during the Cold War with great benefit to ourselves and it was greatly appreciated we continue to follow that approach today things have changed the nature of combinations has changed but our approach is make your own judgments don't be swayed by judgments being made by other people elsewhere for other reasons and of course India was founding member of the non-aligned movement for the same reason yeah non-aligned movement was not a military alliance you know the total military prowess of all the non-aligned countries put together would not equal one major power but it was a commitment principally of newly independent nations in Asia Africa Latin America to not to be goaded into an alliance for this reason or that reason but to make your own judgments and concentrate on your own priorities and those priorities were what nation building priorities your excellency thank you very much for giving us your time thank you very much professor cycle and great to see you again same here all the way