 Welcome everybody to our 42 courses speaker series. You are all very welcome and thank you for taking the time in your day to join us. And for those of you who don't know me, I'm Louise Ward of 42 courses. The most excellent platform with courses in creativity, behavioural science, marketing and well-being. And just to let you know how this is going to go, you are all welcome to put your chat in the chat box. Please tell us your names, where you're joining us from, what your interest is in this subject. We're just delighted that you joined us and I am so pleased to have today as my guest speaker, Ryan Wallman. Ryan is a doctor, turned creative copywriter, best-selling author of the marvellous delusions of brandia. We were just chatting about it before you would join us. The chat behind Dr Draper on Twitter, very impressive 22,000 followers there. But by day Ryan is associate creative director and head of copy at Wellmark, a Melbourne based creative agency specialising in health care. Ryan, you're very welcome and thank you so much for joining us. No, thank you. I'm very happy to be here and looking at the names that are joining. I was worried that nobody was going to be here, so you know, good stuff. So, Ryan, I've just introduced you with my background, but maybe for people who don't know you, just tell them a little bit about yourself, your journey into the world of creativity, which is slightly left of centre. So, Ryan, over to you. Yeah, well, you're right, it is left of centre and it's fairly different from most of the people in our industry, I think. So yeah, as you said, I started out life or professional life as a doctor, which seems like it was, you know, a lifetime ago now, but practice medicine for about seven years, which was primarily in psychiatry. And then kind of, you know, for various reasons decided that I wanted to change career. And I'd always loved writing so I sort of looked at how it might possible to bridge that gap and kind of the obvious, the obvious bridge really was to work in health care writing if that was such a thing and at that stage I wasn't really sure what the, you know, what the opportunities were. But I ended up pretty much just Googling medical writing and ended up applying for a job at the company where I now work and started out as a medical, you know, a junior medical writer there, which was 15 years ago. So yeah, which is, you know, a long tenure by pretty much any standards, I think, particularly in our industry. And since then I've kind of evolved from really from quite a technical medical writer to into more of conceptual copywriter really and kind of now create direction. So, so that's really where I sit, but but it's, you know, Wellmark is a relatively small agency where an agency of 15, 16 people at the moment. So I do have to kind of wear multiple hats really and you know I still do, I still do some fairly technical writing from time to time, as well as, you know, as well as the creative side of it. So, yeah, it's we all have to pitch in depending on what's needed. And from that very serious side of your work, there is, of course, the humor that for those of the people joining us don't are not aware the book that I referred to earlier on delusions of brand year. I'm just going to read from the back cover which I mean even the back cover makes me laugh. If you're a fan of books by people like Gary V and Simon Sinek, you should probably stop reading now. I mean, that just absolutely is it puts it in exactly what this book is about I was saying to. I was saying to Ryan just before we joined nearly every page I open on this just absolutely makes me who we laughed at one that I keep permanently bookmarked here turned down the facts about Gen X. I apologize generation human gen H comprises people born between 1900 and 2018. Our research shows they share the common trait of breathing you can tell which way this is going. So I'm going to pick up of articles that you wrote and and tweets, but your, your sense of humor is just spot on Ryan has there always been a comedic course to excite to you. Thank you very much because that's very kind of you and also that's the first time I've seen the book for a little while because I gave away my life probably a couple of months ago. Look it's interesting but yes I think I probably have always defaulted to to sort of more comedic writing and satirical writing and I really sort of found my voice with that I think on Twitter when I joined Twitter whenever that was. Because of you know just the ridiculousness that I that I saw in the marketing industry and and that was my reaction to it and and it was a way I think to, to, you know, to have a go at that without being particularly without being too combative and to come out you know, from a slightly sort of left the old angle so yes I think I probably that is my natural writing style. And I certainly enjoy, you know, and it's a theoretical side of the stuff that I do here. And when we're talking about this sort of obviously the more humorous side of marketing, you know, I think we all see it and some of us might be a little bit hesitant to call it out you know for fear of you know, or what are people going to say about me and what is it that you have in this sort of bravery to just sort of step out and say well I'm just going to say it like it is. I don't know if it's great. I mean I think as I say in some ways by being satirical about it. You know, two years I don't know if it's cliche or yeah it's quite a nice metaphor I think of punching with a velvet glove, because I don't have to sort of take you know approach it head on and criticize people very directly and I think that's probably what appeals to the satirical, you know, that's what appeals to people about the material stuff that I do is that it's expressing things that maybe they can't directly express to their, you know, their bosses or to you know other people in the industry and so on and I feel as though it's probably struck a chord for that reason. Yeah. Okay, well let's talk about the much bigger picture now about creativity about your your industry about copywriting. What do you think of the bit of a big question but what do you think about the state of copywriting in industry today we've been had been threatened as many see it today, nodding your head there you know which way I'm going. You know, we need we need humans to obviously you know draw on a humanity to see this to see humor that's brought into copywriting a lot of people are turning to other systems. Maybe you'd like to chat a little bit about that about copywriting in that in that vein. So obviously, you know, I guess you're alluding to chat GPT and, you know, the other AI things that seem to be threatening us now and you know look I'd be lying if I said I wasn't a bit worried about it because I think, as much as it's it's limited to to emulate humor and satire and that sort of stuff you know I can imagine that it won't be too long before before it will be much more advanced so yeah look it is a bit of a worry. But by the same token I think I imagine a lot of you know you and a lot of the people here might have seen the article written by me cave where he responded to a reader question about. Or they'd sent in a song in a style of in a style of Nick have written my chat GPT and any any basically taught shreds and kind of on the basis that you know it could never go through human experiences and therefore could never be anything more than sort of a replication machine really. I mean it was fantastic piece I recommend to anyone who hasn't read it. I look I think the state of copyrighting and more more generally, there are, there's lots of great copywriting still around lots of great copywriters, you know, I know a lot of them, I've kind of been fortunate enough to connect with a lot of them. In the last, you know, 10 years or so however these that I've been kind of online. I don't think there's any shortage of talent. I think I think the bigger problem is, is kind of what is kind of accepted really and I don't mean just by clients but just sort of in a broader milieu that mediocre copyrighting is sort of is the more likely to get through I said you know it's the classic of you know design by committee really. That's what's more likely to be accepted by a group of people. And that's probably why I'm slightly concerned about things like chat GPT as well because that's the kind of thing that they can just churn out so. I don't think copywriters are any worse or better than they ever were but but the the kind of the media, you know, the media around us is has changed. So that's my concern. As you say there is hope for the industry and I'm constantly delighted by seeing photos shared by copywriters I admire in LinkedIn where they're just noticing things in the wild as it were you know walking about seeing pieces of copy not necessarily involved even with advertising and I think there is still there is still a great hope for the industry what are the type of, you know when you have young people joining your agency. You know what are the type of things you see as as a difference in terms of you know younger people now addressing copy and obviously somebody like yourself who's been in the industry for a long time. Well, yeah it's an interesting question and it's probably. I don't know that I'm necessarily the best person to ask only because we're such a specialist agency that you know the people who come to first of all the people who come to us tend not to be all that young compared to you know the sort of people that might go into a. A writer you know a copywriter role at a big agency or a consumer agency. So that's the first part but then secondly, the style of writing is necessarily a bit more specialized obviously more specialized than than what it would be. But I think generally probably a more informal style, I would I would say, just as you know as a bit as a general comment and and I think that's that's a good thing. Generally speaking, because that's really that's really my inclination as well. This is for a more informal style rather than you know some of the formal and particularly that sort of stilted writing that you can get with these corporate clients and that kind of thing. Yeah, so I think they do you know the copyrights that we get coming through always bring something a bit different. You know every I mean everyone brings something a bit different from what we're what we used to writing and I think it's really nice to see a different perspective. Particularly for an agency like ours where you know a lot of us have been there for a long time so it's nice to see what other people do. And as I said before talking about creativity and generally it's something we're always talking about in 42 courses is such a wide subject but what do you see as the state of creativity at present in the work that you see we I'm thinking now of can which always comes up as a subject. And then I think there was quite a lot of criticism this year, you know, about the sense of purpose that seemed to dominate. What are your feelings about about that Ryan. Well as you probably have gleaned a little bit from delusions of ground or I am somewhat skeptical about the purpose movement. I think, you know, I don't think there's anything wrong with the idea of communicating a brand purpose if that's kind of at the core of what a brand stands for and what the business stands for but it's this, you know, it's when it's being slapped on, you know, cynically that that I think most people have a problem with it. And generally speaking, I agree with a lot of what Steve Harrison says about this and I don't know, you know, how much you've seen that what he's written. But he's his book can't sell one cell talks a lot about, you know, the way the purpose is kind of overtaken or overridden. A lot of the commercial purpose that advertising has always served and, and you know to the detriment really of the industry. In fact, we're hoping to what Steve is coming out to Australia in a couple of months so we're hoping to put on a talk with him. So, yes, so it's an issue that's barely close to my heart. And I think, I mean, I wonder how much of that is slightly personal as well because because I work for a health care agency and you know a lot of our work is naturally sort of has, you know, a humanistic purpose. So when I see, you know, brands like Cadbury or, you know, whatever it is that sort of is has these high minded moral purposes that it sort of immediately gets my back up if you like. So yes, I'm certainly skeptical about it. To answer your question about can. Yeah, look, I think it's an issue and I've also as you also would have done is probably a book. I'm a bit skeptical about awards as well and not so much awards as the kind of session with you know with awards that that a lot of people, a lot of people in our industry have and what that does to the work. But, you know, it's a necessary ever really and that's just how it is. And Chris has joined us our founder in 42 courses and Chris just asking there, where do you look for your inspiration. Creative inspiration. I assume that means. Well, look, it's probably a cliche answer this but at everywhere really so I try to take inspiration from from what I read and you know I tried to read fairly widely. I do read a fair amount of you know kind of marketing literature or at least I have I've been a bit remiss with that in the past couple years. But also, you know, just fiction more generally and and as you say it's a little as a copyright you can always tune to everything that you read you know you're walking along the street and so you know a sign on a bus or whatever. You just kind of naturally analyze everything. So yeah, look, it's a hard question but sort of everything and I am exposed to really. But yeah, look, I do you know I do make a point of, of trying to, you know, I'll click through the the old award annuals that we've got at work, you know, doing that and doing AD annuals and that kind of stuff. Some of which are quite old now. But yeah, that does come in handy I find, you know, even before we've got a pitch coming up or something so yeah. We're always sharing ideas obviously at work and one thing we say we're not short of his ideas and sometimes that's more of the problem isn't it there's just the wealth of information that's available to you and you know focusing in on on what's important I mean, you obviously have lots of interests. Do you do how do you focus in really and target on on the important things. Not very well. I get very easily distracted by Twitter, you know, whatever else. I suppose when I do have a creative challenge, then I, then I am better at sort of, you know, focusing my creativity and sort of, you know, focusing my attention but yeah other than that, I can't answer that question very well. I can't even focus on that question. I think it's a perennial problem. I was just reading very interesting article this guy was, it's called the second brain. This book he's written and he was going back to, I think they're called chapter books. It's another place to focus your, your, your ideas can be simple things recipes or just quotes from people and it's, I mean that's something that I do is have a notebook on the go I just wonder about your actual, you know techniques, your practical techniques that you use in the agency when you're working on projects like this. Yeah, well, yeah, that's an interesting question and it's, it's pretty pretty form. I think I think I personally am not a big fan of, of big brainstorms. I think I work best when it's sort of either literally sitting down with that, you know, pen and paper, because I send to be able to be more creative when when it's pen and paper rather than sitting at a computer. And, and kind of working through ideas myself and then sitting down with usually it's, you know, a designer or someone from the studio and bouncing ideas off each other and that seems to work well it sort of had the kind of a classic copyright or art director partnership really, yeah, we'll, we'll sort of bounce ideas off each other and, and often what I try to do, and this is something that was inspired by a guy called Mark Duffy who I think his Twitter handle is copywriter, who's even more kind of caustic than I am. He made the point that, you know, that he's written a blog about this that saying that the best ideas, or the best advertising tends to have an unexpected visual, which I, which is a fairly big statement because I don't think that's entirely true. So many of the examples that he gave were excellent and it really sort of made me, I think, kind of prioritised visual thinking over thinking about the words first, and I think as a copyrighted that really helps because just because it makes you makes you think about the combination of, you know, of visuals and and copy together. The other person found that was very helpful. And by the same token, you know, my, our executive creative director who's got a design background says, you know, he often thinks about the words first and then sort of, you know, how the visuals will work in with that so I think that there's a sort of a complementarity there with the way that we work so, you know, a lot of the people that I've worked at Wellmark have been, we've been working together for a decade, some of us. And so we sort of worked out a bit of a shorthand I think in the in the way that we work together so it's quite it's probably a bit hard to describe the creative process but that's sort of how it works. And the other thing is that, you know, I'm like a lot of other creative people or people in creative industry, I should say, and I find that ideas come to me kind of in the, you know, in the liminal spaces and when I'm not actually thinking about what the problem is and, you know, in the shower or the classic, it was that when my kids were very young, I would sort of have the best ideas when I was lying awake at 2am because, you know, I've just been up to feed them or whatever and sort of that I think the stillness of the night somehow brought out brought out ideas and some of the stuff in my book was, you know, it was all sort of it came to me in the middle of the night. Yeah, I don't know that I'd necessarily recommend that. So many interesting points then I mean we as as we know visual is, you know, a much stronger stimulation to to the brain and and there again as you're saying you can't know when your ideas are going to come to you and some of the best advice is just to stop what you're doing and go for a walk. I often join a meeting in the morning and I'll be saying to Chris. I had this idea in the morning this morning I don't really know what I what I mean but I feel it's going this way and as you say the ideas just seem to come to you at those times and you can step away from the work that you're focusing on. And the shower thoughts, I mean, I mean that's happened, you know, I've had that as well so yeah, there's something about it and the subconscious just starts working on it so yeah. Absolutely well we've had some great questions in from the people who joined us and again thanks so much for joining us for this talk I can see a question there from Claire, Claire Johnson thanks for joining Claire. I'll read out the question with your background in health care you possibly have a decent amount of clout with health care clients. How do you advise non medical copywriters to cut through the risk averse attitude many providers have. Just in question. Yeah. I mean that's a very relevant and difficult question. And I think I remember writing about this sometime ago about the difficulty of dealing with. You know, scientific approvers and medical approvers when you when you're working in a creative role, because they definitely approach things from a very different lens. And yes look clear you are right it's. It does help to have a health care background is it you sort of come to it from a positional authority to some extent I suppose. But it doesn't necessarily make it any easier for me to you know to get sort of ideas through that I think. You know the best way of communicating something even if it doesn't sort of stick to the regulations as they see them. Geez. I think probably one of the problems with with well with with our with our jobs in general but probably particularly in health care is that. You know you have to kind of justify creative decisions but to people who really just aren't used to judging creative outputs. And it's and it is really difficult you know you sometimes you have to. I have found anyway to use some of the work of people like you know by and sharp. Because they really you know they have brought kind of science I guess to the forefront of marketing and and if you can sort of quote that kind of work and the scientific basis of for example creative effectiveness then that I think can resonate with you know with people who are naturally or come from a scientific background. So yeah I have these that we've used that approach sometimes. That's very interesting I worked in medical market research for a good number of years and as you say the specialist adverts that the medical professionals in particular are exposed to are certainly a league on to their own and. I tested in a slightly different way in terms of a message that's conveyed and you know they're they're certainly looking for a very particular particular slant on it so it does interest me. Yeah, yeah, so it's interesting that there has actually been a real shift in health care advertising and probably in the last five or five years maybe even a little bit longer. Where there's there's been a real kind of explosion of creativity and I think the health care advertising industry is very healthy for one and better word. And a lot more interesting that people shifting from the consumer side, you know, big names in the industry that are moving into health care and I think there really has been a recognition of the role of creativity. In health care and pharmaceuticals and yet but as you say I mean it used to be very, very formulaic and and kind of generic. But yeah it's not really the case anymore so it's been really nice to see. That's really interesting so I'm going to go to the questions again. There's a question here from Melissa. Melissa Gray Ward for joining us. What Melissa asks what are the critical skills for copywriters who want to move towards a CD CD roles and she says in her experience. Most a CD CD she's worked with have come from design art direction first, and former copywriters are less represented. So thanks Melissa that's an interesting question. Yes, Melissa that is an interesting question and I share your pain. No, as you know, it used to be the case that that most creative, you know, I mean we're talking sort of half a half a century ago probably but most creative directors at that stage came from a copywriting background and that really has shifted. Moved up through the agency. Yeah, it's really changed and you know, all of a lot of the creative direction roles that you see, you know, job ads or a lot of the creative director that I know have come from a design background and that seems to be the norm now. Advice. I suppose maybe sort of talking back to what I was saying earlier which is trying to sort of think as much as possible as you know, you know, you know visual way and and try and put visual ideas first when you when you're when you're thinking about your creative process, because I'm just finding that it, you know, first of all, it goes down well with designers. But assuming that you don't actually go and try and do the design yourself because that that doesn't go down so well. Yeah, I think it just it makes your ideas so much stronger and I think probably sort of demonstrates your ability to think you know, you know, holistic creative way rather than rather than just thinking about a good headline or you know, you know, cracking line, which is very tempting to do. But yeah, I don't know what I can recommend about the systemic issue because it does really seem to be that there's a there's an emphasis on designing creative direction roles and and look, I don't know, the pendulum might swing back who knows, I guess we'll see. That's still very helpful. Thank you. I mean a question we're often asked from people when we have guests on is just the perennial books that you've enjoyed or have inspired you and and people within the industry you've already mentioned Steve Harrison who we're a great friend, great great fan of. So the people who inspire you or the books that you think are particularly useful in the copywriting industry or advertising. Yeah, yeah. Well, probably the first the first sort of really kind of revolutionary book in terms of, you know, my introduction to copywriting would have was drag birds. What's it called? I don't remember none of the letters that sell or something. Anyway, it's direct marketable. It's a classic and he's updated it to include sort of, you know, digital marketing as well. And I know Drayton quite well. So he's been a huge influence. So I used to, you know, back 20 years ago, probably when I was living in London, I used to read Rory's column in the spectator. And that was kind of, you know, well before I got into the industry, but he's been a massive influence as well. So I would highly recommend his book, which I'm sure you know, the top of the list for me a recommendation. Yeah, I mean, just amazing. Yeah. And then advertising more generally, well obviously, you know, and all those classics, I think you can't really go wrong with those. But other people in the industry, certainly copyrighted Vicky Ross, who a lot of your, your viewers will probably know as well. She's a bit of a kind of force of nature in the copyrighting community and very well connected. Has fantastic advice about copyrighting. She's, you know, started started a copyrighting community on Twitter, although I don't know how active that is anymore from the state of Twitter. Yeah, they'd probably be then they're a good start. Very, very inspiring list will put a list of those up afterwards for any of you so don't worry if you're not scribbling down furiously. Yeah, and Chris has just reminded us that Rory has a new book coming out but as you say the alchemy book is really inspiring isn't it I really would. I always recommend that to people it was my first sort of introduction to all of the concepts of behavioral science which have become so involved in. Yes, go ahead. Just reminded me that Richard shot and who wrote the choice factory has just, I think has just released a new book as well. Speaking of behavioral science so I'm sure that it will be fantastic because choice factory is great to. Yeah, good recommendation I can't remember the name of the new book you're right it's coming out at the coming out at the end of March. So yeah, yeah I can't remember that as you say it's another great writer in the behavioral science field I mean is that an area that you feel for yourself as contributed to sort of diversification of thought. Yeah, it is. And I sort of. It's one of those things that you know, as soon as I read the choice factory I was kind of looking for behavioral science angles into every kind of job that we had. And I think it's sort of a little bit since you know since then. But absolutely yeah and social proof and cocktail party effect and that kind of stuff and then we would, you know, genuinely use that in campaigns that we've done. And I think it's really added just a different dimension to a lot of advertising and you know Rory is just so, so insightful and less filled with the way that he thinks that it makes it all seem so obvious but yeah it's not necessarily. And as you say, the techniques that are explained through behavioral science another author we're a fan of is Patrick Fagan, who explains psychology behind marketing and as you say a lot of it as we know it's not that it's new to us sometimes it's just that you're going to label, but it certainly opens your eyes to different approaches to these and that's interesting you say that. Once you read Richard straight away. I suppose it's recency by thought or whatever but I think it probably gets back to I think it was Claire's question about, you know, how you deal with scientific people and healthcare approvers and so on and I think and I do recall using some of the stuff in Richard Scotland's book as justification for what we're doing. It appeals to sort of, you know, left brain people when you, you know, when you can actually back it up with, you know, psychological research or yeah. Yeah, and as you referred to earlier the work that Byron Sharp's done that we all admire so much you you feel that his work lends credence when you're talking to clients. Yeah, it's a lot easier to justify it on the basis of that kind of stuff and yeah it's actually surprised I was I was quite surprised. You know, I mean it must have been several years after how brands grow came out. I was talking about it in presentations to clients and now you know some of them quite a lot of them had never heard of it which which are quite surprising but but yeah I suppose, you know until you've been exposed to it it's. Well it's just another subject Ryan that we often comment on is that we can be sort of falsely confident that everybody knows the people we're talking about the books that we're familiar with and when you're in the niche market and soon as you step out of it. You're surprised to say who is that who is that person but it's you know people are still just in which is superb are still just discovering many of these theories of marketing that we now feel with so familiar with. Yeah, and I think you know not to fanboy over him too much but I think quite a lot of that probably has been driven by Mark Whitson. You know so many people now have done his mini MBA and would have been exposed to a lot of of those theories and you know the thinking in marketing that has been done over you know decades but you know a lot of people as he as he has often pointed out. Simply didn't have any form of marketing education and hadn't been exposed to it and so that they're working sort of blind and sort of on fear with your life. And I think that really is changing I think that I think there's a much greater appreciation of the role of education in good marketing practice. Yeah, I find that interesting as well because there seems to be the very diverse use as you say it's fantastic that so many people are now getting qualifications in marketing and there's the science behind it from people like Byron shop and then you'll get the other extreme of the old school thought you're Dave Trot who can be quite disparaging about the graduates who arrive and he really advocates for sort of like old school on the ground learning. What do you think about those sort of differing views very diverse I know. Yeah, well I look I don't think that there's necessarily a clash there but I mean I like Dave as well. And I think he's absolutely right about the kind of the and it's actually a Rory Sutherland's term for is the era of democracy and it's you know that that's kind of taken over the world of advertising in particular to its detriment. And I think there is a subtle difference between kind of marketing as a discipline and and then kind of the creative expression of marketing and you know advertising in particular, which is really where more where Dave is coming from. And I think that's where things can get a bit muddy you know I think the scientific people can get a bit caught up in aspects of advertising that you know that can't be explained by numbers and you know whatever criteria need to be inserted into every ad and all that kind of stuff and we've just I think an excellent example of that is that you know that me Donald's ad, you know there's been a lot of debate around you know other other brand assets distinctive enough is there enough, you know, focus on the product and all that sort of stuff. And that's where I think these these two opposing schools of thought sort of, you know, do clash of it. Yeah, look, as Martin says, and I know I quite him too much so I apologize. But but he has always said look, as a client as a marketing client you know your role is to is to set the set the strategy and make sure the positioning is right and all that sort of stuff. And then brief the agency and let them go so let the creative process take place subsequent to those decisions, you know, and don't kind of involve yourself in the creative process and I think that's you know he is essentially agreeing with Dave there. And I think, you know, in a perfect in a marketing utopia, Mark Ritson would be the client and he'd hand over to Dave and you'd have the best dad that you've ever seen probably. Yeah, I mean I think we've come full circle ever coming back to as you say the power of creativity and really creative ideas like that can't be measured sort of on the efficacy scale and you know we're measuring the strength of the brand can you see and then, as you say along comes an advert like the current McDonald's one where the product isn't even in the advert, you know, and you just think well that's. And again, I was really inspired by that because there's often conversations about the sort of dirge of creativity and then you constantly do see new things coming along and it sort of reinforces. Yeah, enforces that and as you say with all of this concern about chat and you know ai taking over then you see things like that and you think there's hope for the world. It restores your faith to some extent doesn't it. Yeah, it's been it's been a really interesting discussion about that and and I think I'm very reassuring really that most people have have kind of been favour of and thought this is what advertising you remember you remember what it can do. And interesting enough, although you say you know, it's hard to measure something like that. The system one people did actually measure the effective you know, do you know john yeah john. And it came up, you know, I mean it was just it exceeded all expectations basically and you know one of the most effective ads they've ever run through their system so it just goes to show that you know I think to some degree you probably can measure these things but but not in the in the way that kind of the number conscious necessarily thinks I think it would be. Well we've covered so many subjects in this short time Ryan and I've really found everything that you said, extremely interesting I do thank you for agreeing to join us here today for this 42 courses chat and I hope that everybody who took the time in their day to join us. I've enjoyed it as much as I do. You actually say Ryan you don't have a copy of the book. I certainly don't know if you can get hold of Ryan's book I really do recommend it it's a great, it's a great hoot. Today what we'll do is we'll put up a list of all of the influential people and their books that Ryan has mentioned. And again, I thank you Ryan for joining us today I've really enjoyed our chat and I hope that everybody else has to and I hope you'll join us again. Thank you for one of our 42 courses speaker events. Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure. And am I allowed to do a little plug at the end. You absolutely are. So, so we do, I do have a sequel to delusions of brands are coming out hopefully in the next couple of months. And I'm wondering how things go, but yeah, Giles Edward to is my partner in crime is currently working on it. So, yeah, that hopefully it's it's basically more of the same. So if you like that then, yeah. We look forward to it. Thank you very much Ryan for joining us. Thank you everyone for joining us. And I hope that you'll join us again at a future event. Thanks for joining us. Thank you everyone. Thanks everyone. Thanks so much Ryan.