 Thanks Dave. Good morning. This is Monday, March 18th. We're here at 101 Federal Street at 12th floor and I am calling to order public meeting number 509. Before we get started I had promised at our public meeting last Thursday that I would reiterate words that I shared then. So here we go. The agenda for this meeting as you can see includes final interviews for named candidates for the role of Executive Director. These candidates were selected by a screening committee chaired by Commissioner O'Brien and included Commissioner Maynard. It also included Chief Financial Officer Derek Lennon who's here today. Thank you Derek and our Chief People and Diversity Officer Dave Maltrew. Thank you Chief Maltrew. Commissioner Skinner, Hill and I learned the names of the finalists last Thursday morning and right before our public meeting. Prior to that I did disclose to my fellow commissioners and the public that I intended to recuse myself from the interviews. Discussions and ultimate vote of Executive Director given that I will not have the opportunity to work with the prevailing candidate as my final day at the Commission will be this Thursday. I wish to thank the screening committee for its work. There was a long lot of work and thank you for that and and it brings us to today and I want to thank all of those who submitted applications for the role of Executive Director and wish the person selected the very best of luck. As I said on Thursday remains true the selected candidate will inherit a committed and talented team as they begin their new position. For today's meeting I am required to designate one of my fellow commissioners this chair and I have asked Commissioner Hill today to preside and thank you for being willing to do that. I appreciate very much your leadership and with that I am going to recuse myself and wish you guys great luck. Thank you. Thank you. I want to thank Madam Chair for opening up our public meeting number 509. Before we start the chair recognizes Commissioner Maynard who would like to make a statement before we start. Thank you Mr. Chairman. Let me pull this up. I want to notify the Commission that in a cautionary measure I will be filing a 23b3 disclosure as well as any other necessary disclosures with my joint appointing authorities that explains that I worked with Clinton Dick from 2016 to 2018 at the division of professional licensure now known as the division of occupational licensure and I also worked with Dean Serpa in the office of the governor from 2019 to 2022. On occasion I did see them in social gatherings and outings. That said I consulted outside council will make the necessary disclosures made the necessary disclosures during the subcommittee meetings and I am confident that I can perform my official duties objectively and fairly today and not let my previous work history with these two candidates influence my decision. In addition I note that the Commission is made up of four other fantastic members three of which are engaging in this process today and will engage in the final decision-making process. So with that thank you Mr. Chair. Thank you Commissioner Maynard and now we'll get right to the business at hand before we bring in our first candidate I would like to hear from Commissioner Eileen O'Brien who was the chair of the executive director screening committee so she can give us a little bit of a review of the director's selection process. The chair recognizes Commissioner O'Brien. Thank you Commissioner Hill. I was the chair of the committee the screening committee for the search for executive director. I want to say that I am very pleased today that we are going to be bringing two outstanding candidates to the body for consideration in alphabetical order. Clinton Dick and Gene Serpa but to give you some background on the process that as Chair Judd Stein mentioned the screening committee initially had five members in addition to myself and Commissioner Maynard CFO Lenin and Chief People Officer Dave Muldrew we also had Heather Hall who at the time was Chief Legal Counsel and the acting interim IEB director. She departed following the initial screening of the resumes but I wanted to make sure that we thanked not only my fellow commissioner I wanted to thank everyone who was part of that process including the members who were part of that. I also wanted to make sure that I thanked Jacqueline Knecht as well as other people of the HR team who want to stay behind the scenes and for the legal advice of A&K during that process to give you a sense of what that process was. The position for executive director was open through December 19th of 2023. This committee met 15 times over the course of that date and Monday the 11th last week when we selected the final two candidates. We had a total of 74 applicants that were sourced from the posting and the three executive screening committees that were engaged by the MGC. It was an incredibly talented and diverse pool. We had interest from across the state nationally and even some international interest in the position. Over the course of those 15 meetings while I can't go into depth about the various applicants I can tell you that the committee went over the requirements for the position on the job description that this body of five voted on. We went and looked at the minimum requirements of the candidates and started to sort of pare down that 74 and we ultimately did reach a process where we paired it down to eight candidates who were brought in for in-person interviews and discussions about their skillset, their ideas and challenges for the executive director position, vetting references, writing samples, and their ability in the committee's estimation to do the job. That following that process we came to the conclusion unanimously that the two that you are going to hear from today were the two best candidates to put forward to this full body for final interview and consideration. So with that said, unless there's anything else that my fellow commissioners would like to bring up, we can start the process and bring in Mr. Clinton Dick, who his resume is in the packet. He is currently serving as general counsel for the office of consumer affairs and business regulation. Before we do that, madam, my fellow commissioner, commissioner Maynard would like to make a comment. I did tell the chairman I would like to say that given my history of working with thousands of appointments and hires, I have to say this was the best ran program. And I think that had a lot to do with you, Commissioner O'Brien as chair, and the way that you worked. And I was happy to work under your leadership. And I want to thank Chief Muldrew and Chief Linen. But you ran a fantastic process. And I think the public should know that. Thank you for what you did. I appreciate that. I think everybody helped. And as a fellow commissioner, I too want to say thank you to you and the committee for the great work that they did. And I'm looking forward to being able to interview the two candidates that will be before us today. So at this time, the commission will go into a brief recess while we bring in the first candidate, Clinton Dick. Before we start, we're going to come out and shake your hand. Was we put you out there a little bit, but it's an awkward situation. Good morning. Good morning. The commission will come to order. Mr. Dick, so we're very family friendly here. And we like using first names. But I don't want to use your first name without your permission as we talked to you today. We want this to be comfortable for you. And I think in the past, we've all tried to use first names and saying, you know, the last name over and over. You all right? I appreciate that. I'm fine with that, sir. Yes. Okay. Before we begin with questions, I do want to open up this time for an opportunity for you to give a opening remark if you would like to. I appreciate that. And I want to thank the commission for inviting me here today. So I'm very excited to be chosen as one of the two candidates for the executive director position. A little background me I'm from originally from Southern Ohio on what folks up here would say is a farm, but I would not be right to call it a farm in Southern Ohio. But it was a great, you know, great, small location, you know, we had horses, animals and grew up there. And wanted to, you know, seek out educational opportunities. So I moved to Columbus, Ohio, and then eventually came to Massachusetts. And I've been here since about 2002, lived in Massachusetts, except for a one year period when I went back to Ohio. I thought I might want to become a professor. But while that didn't work out, it did meet my husband there, convinced him to move back here with me. So in that sense, it was a success. I live in Rockland, Massachusetts. We have cats, dogs, and currently in the process of fostering, which is which is quite an undertaking. I think I think this is only second to that kind of task of taking care of puppies. My person, my professional background, I started out as a administrative prosecutor for what was then the division of professional licenter. And it was a great experience for me. I was very new. Having taken that year off, it was a great opportunity for me to get back into the legal profession. I did that for a number of years, seven or eight, gathered great experience, legal skills, litigation. But I wanted more opportunity than that. And so the occupational schools, which is those schools non degree granting that were originally overseen by elementary and secondary education, moved to professional licensing. And the goal was to try to get a little bit more oversight there and find problematic schools that may have been taken advantage of students. So I was selected as the first executive director of occupational schools. And that reported directly to the commissioner. There was no board. There was an advisory council. And we stood up regulations for occupational schools. We did a lot of good enforcement actions. And by that, I mean getting money back from the schools to students, take an appropriate discipline, suspension action for schools that were not behaving appropriately. But at the same time, working with all the vast majority of schools that were doing things correctly, and really giving good opportunities for students who were pursuing a non degree path. I was added to that was important engineers, board of architects, allied mental health and human services where we created the license type for behavioral analysts. And from there, then I worked for about five years, kind of guiding, managing those boards, looking at regulations, updating regulations, had an opportunity again to be deputy general counsel, and then eventually general counsel for the division of occupational licensure, which I then held up to the point I was I moved up to the parent agency of occupational licensure with licensure, which is the Office of Consumer Affairs, where I had the privilege of working with undersecretary Ed Pulaski, and now undersecretary Leila de Melida. I just want to make one comment that I forgot. She a woman, Judge Stein, has recused herself, so I wanted you to know that she feels that because she would not be working with either of the candidates, should they be chosen. Her last day is this Thursday, but I wanted you to know that's the reason she's not here and why she rescues herself if you did not. So at this time, we're going to start hammering you with some questions, but again, very comfortable, you know, and please be relaxed here. Thank you. Because that's the type of atmosphere that we love. And I'm going to start the questioning with my friend down to my left, Commissioner Skinner, if you don't mind asking the first question. I would love to. Clinton, I hope you can hear me OK. I'm having a little bit of difficulty speaking, so I apologize in advance for that. You mentioned your stint as adjunct professor. I'm kind of curious as to what you were teaching back in Ohio. I had the privilege of teaching humanities 101, political science 101. There was a constitutional law course, which was which was really nice. It was more of upper level class folks, junior and senior. And don't recall of it, but those are the ones that kind of stood out to me. You know, as we talked like the Iliad and kind of went through the general humanities criteria. And then in constitutional law, hitting the most interesting and exciting cases for nonlaw students, I would say, we're trying to get, you know, the mock debates. You choose this side. You choose, you know, you are assigned this side. You were assigned this side, whether you like it or not. Make your best arguments. So I thought that was quite successful. Thank you. You're an attorney. Yes. Practicing currently. This would be a significant career change for you. Can you talk to us about why you're looking for this change at this point in your tenure? Absolutely. You know, when I did take on the executive director position in 2014, I had the same kind of thought conversation with myself, my husband, about not being the lawyer anymore. And, you know, what we, through that conversation, I came to appreciate that it's not, it's the role is different. But what I am interested in is the kind of regulatory structure. How can we, you know, I'm an economic development secretariat. How do we ensure that we have the appropriate amount of regulation that allows businesses to succeed, individuals to succeed, while also protecting consumers? And as an attorney, I would not have had that opportunity, for example, as the exact, if I was the board counsel to occupational schools. It is a different role. It's a very important role. But the role of the executive director, working with the commission, with the commissioner, was to effectuate what decisions she thought best for standing up occupational schools and ensuring they succeed, but also looking to stakeholders for what experiences they have had, the good and the bad, and having that kind of outreach that I don't think that, at the time, the attorney wasn't doing and should not have, well, I don't say should not, was not the role she was assigned to be. So it's the administrator of these, of those boards, subject to, at the time, the commissioner, of course. I see this and I, and I want to start by saying, because I know we call it this is executive director, and I've been thinking about this question and why I'm, you know, excited about this, because I see it also, and maybe differently, as a chief of staff kind of position. And what I mean by that is, and why I'm interested, when I was the executive director, and this, this came up at various points throughout my career, and I'm happy to talk later about that, was I want to answer your question directly, that you had a board that you answered to in some respects, but you also had your employer you answered to as well. And that's, that's since the commissioner and the board, and those were very much attention at times. And I've had experiences with that, and it's not always easy to explain. This, I think, provides an opportunity to really work on behalf of the commission, and ensure what the commission decides, policy wise decisions is carried through without that tension that existed as an executive director previously. So because I enjoyed that role as being an executive director, I enjoyed working with the boards, the stakeholders, the license holder, the licensees, you know, going from prosecutions to that, you went from seeing everyone as a negative, because everyone encountered was, you know, doing usually doing something wrong to realizing that there's a full, you know, array of individuals out there and businesses who are doing things right. And that's why I enjoyed being the executive director. And I think this would provide an even greater opportunity for me to expand and utilize I think the skills I have to work on behalf of the commission. And that's why I use that phrase, cheapest staff. I'm not saying that's the new title. I'm just saying I see it as an instrument of the commission without that tension that I'm aware that I'm aware of through my work at occupational licensure. A follow up, Mr. Chairman. Absolutely. Why gaming? What is your interest in gaming in particular? I see gaming as economic development. Your statue 23 K talks about issuing licenses in part on suitability that provides the greatest benefit, I'm paraphrasing probably here, the greatest benefit to the Commonwealth and to the region in which the gaming like the gaming establishment is. So it's really maximizing benefit and then minimizing what harm may come from that. And I also work in an economic secretariat. And I find that this idea that to be, although the commission is not new, it's newer than most of the entities that I work with and for at Office of Consumer Affairs and then at occupational licensure, meaning there had been established. Certainly there's regulatory review. There's updates. I find this experience of I find this to be a new experience, a new opportunity for the Commonwealth to maximize the benefit through gaming. I mean, I'm cognizant of, you know, I think $1.6 billion in taxes and assessments have come in, which is, you know, great for the Commonwealth, great for the commission to be able to regulate. But also, you know, 2022 on core generated $1.2 billion of economic activity and 99 hundred jobs. And that's a direct impact and a direct effect of the license being issued on court at the location where it is. I think that's exciting to see that kind of benefit directly. I don't have a gaming immersion experience. I did work with Attorney Grossman in 2014 just when he asked me to comment on some regulations they were developing for gaming. I mean, excuse me, for schools that were primarily going to be housed in the casinos. And we had that, you know, a great conversation then. But I think I bring to the commission and can bring to the commission skills and knowledge from my background that would allow me to be an effective person, an effective executive director for the commission and allow me this opportunity to serve you all with those skills and experiences on a front that I think is an exciting economic opportunity for the common wealth. When we're not always seeing that in other areas where we do find there could be a deficit of skilled labor trades, you know, I think this is a real push. This can be a real push to make communities casinos they're already good, but, you know, in the direction of always being good and better. Thank you, Clayton. Thank you. Okay. The chair recognizes Commissioner O'Brien. Sure. And just for anyone watching to to make those those schools and casinos were dealer schools, right? Yes, yes. Yeah. So there's no confusion. It's good to see you again. Thank you for coming in. Commissioner, the question that I have is, you know, somewhat following up on what your answers to Commissioner Skinner were just now and in particular, you talk about minimizing the harm in addition to the economic benefit. And so one of the things this commission is known for is the responsible gaming component of what we do. And so can you speak to how your experience and your prior experience, what would you bring to that part of this role in terms of what the commission decides with staff in terms of responsible gaming? I think responsible gaming is an important part of what the commission does with with game sense with the voluntary self exclusion program. And, you know, even just having the on site presence of the investigation units there, you know, I would go back to occupational schools drawing upon some of the experiences there where we would we would and there we're dealing with the owners. And I know that here you're dealing with the patrons of it. But one of the things we wanted to make sure students were aware of. And when this is where we at we required owners of schools is to provide them with financial accounting sheets. What kind of debt which is which is I'll say is is usually and I think at some point required for federal loans, but not all schools, I would say probably 20% of our schools accepted federal dollars. So those students have the benefit of seeing in front of them a fact sheet. Here's how much you're going to be borrowing. Here's how long you're saying you're going to pay it back. Here's your interests. And here's your rights. We found that other schools did not have to do that. And so what we did was we you know, stole a little bit from the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau because they had this great sheet. And we convened a advisory committee of school owners reps from student loan relief programs or agencies and tried to come up with this one simple sheet that schools would be required to hand students to say here is what you would be at the end of the day responsible for. I'm not commenting on it, but you need to know that you need to take that away so that you then can maybe go to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. We tried to provide some of these links on our website to see I'm going to be this profession. This is my debt. Do I think I'm going to be able to sustain that level of debt? And it was a successful program. We would do onsite compliance checks. We would regularly regularly inspect schools at their renewals. And it was one of the things we looked to look for not that they had it sitting on their desk blank, but pull random student files and see if there's something in there. I mean, that is in there signed by the student indicating that they had received it and took it home. And then we also tried to come up with an Excel spreadsheet calculator to kind of allow students to plug in numbers, you know, what's your income? What's your rents? What's your food budget to try to play with that a little? That wasn't required, but it was a tool we were trying to offer students so they could make an informed decision about that, you know, level of debt they were going to be taking on. And I also would say I would have hoped and I don't know if this is true may have encouraged schools to maybe offer a little bit then of in financial incentives. If that is such, you know, such plain language to them, maybe they throw in a grant, maybe they throw in a deduction to assist the student. But I can't say that actually happened. I just can only speak to what the requirement was. I may. Of course. You talked about you envisioning this as, you know, a chief of staff this sort of your conceptualization of the role. And whether it's ED or chief of staff sort of your vision of it, there's an element of managing up to this body of five and then also the staff, the agency staff. So can you describe for us what your management style has been and what you would anticipate it to be here. And I because I recognize that the commission is has the limitation of you meet in a public, you have to meet in a public body when, you know, three or more gathered. But and so you figure also full time commissioners, which is nothing I've dealt with with boards themselves. So it's very important that during these public meetings, it's understood what the commission's decisions will be. And then, you know, the executive director has to take that back and, you know, make it happen. But what does that mean? Make it happen. Why I think this is where you both can be caught. You're both a manager and a leader. A manager has tasks that need to be done. She knows that here's her list of things. Maybe this came from the board meeting itself and the follow up that's needing to be done for the next meeting. But people, individuals want more than that. Especially what I've heard to be such a successful work environment here. And I think that's where a leader informs individuals of the why something's important. Tries to set an example of this is why the commission tries to explain why the commission may have chose to do it this way. Make sure that under individuals understand what those expectations are from the commission, what the expectations are from the from the executive director, but also listen to them because they're specialized in their role. And no one person can be every other can do every other role, except where, you know, you have to maybe because there's short staff. But the idea is you have specialized roles and those individuals are going to bring to you a perspective and ideas that need to be listened to. It doesn't mean you have to follow them. It doesn't mean you don't stick with a decision, but it also means you change it. And so I think the expectation I would have for an executive director is they clearly explain weekly meetings or one on ones, I think are very important where someone has your full attention, what it is that we're doing here and why we are doing it and what my expectation then of you is as we do this. And then in turn, and this is why I go back to the chief of staff is, you know, what is that the commission has to know? What is it today? There are there are there are priorities that absolutely need the commissioners attention. No, no question. Executive director doesn't have a choice about that. What's not yet right, meaning maybe there is a heads up. By the way, there's particular issue herculeating. I'm going to provide some more follow up later when I have more information. And that's exactly my style. I've had the privilege of working for my current supervisor undersecretary Undersecretary Demilia for three different stints now. And one thing she's always taught me is no surprises. You don't have to have the answer. Just give me a heads up. And then, you know, I'll know you're on top of it. If I get asked, I can say, yep, I'm aware of that. Clinton is he's already briefed me on it. He's going to provide some follow up. And that's always been my strategy. Something I've learned, a skill I've learned is make sure that the folks who I report to are never surprised. But always be prepared to to come with them with full explanations if possible. And it's a balance there because you don't want to overwhelm folks with, you know, this is going on. I'll get to you in a week. You want to make sure those that you need heads up on are given given to you. And then maybe those more liable priority, you have a full briefing ready to present so that you're not overwhelmed because you have you have other other obviously other responsibilities and duties. Thank you. Okay. The chair recognizes Commissioner Maynard. Thank you. Thank you, Chairman. So Clinton, can you talk a little bit about we deal a lot with here at the MGC external stakeholders, other government offices, because of the open meeting law, which you just talked about. It can sometimes get a little weird, right? Because perhaps I want to talk to an agency head that another commissioner wants to talk to and you can't have three or more. Can you just talk a little bit about, A, there's a two part question. A, what's your experience working with external stakeholders? Do you look forward to doing that here? And B, how do you deal with the open meeting law issue around external stakeholders and other government agencies? All right. So let me start with the first. I do look forward to engaging stakeholders if I were to become executive director. I'll put that in two parts. I've over the years had a privilege to work with a lot of agencies for different reasons. So I would say the number one is probably the Attorney General's office. So, you know, first and foremost, our administrative appeals. We work with individuals in that sector. Sure, they have the right material. But on more on less than issues other than where there are attorney, you know, we've reached out to them and had a lot of productive conversations. And I think action plan, for example, with human trafficking with the task force that we had set up to do what we could on human trafficking. We reached out a lot of the A.G. on our preemption. And so this is where the town or city comes along and says, we want to do acts. We want to ban fossil fuel hookups. It's probably the most famous example of Brookline. And we have to then work with the Attorney General's office to say, well, our, you know, plumbing code, which we have, we were overseen at the time. I was overseen at the time as general counsel doesn't allow for that. So here's what our input is. Of course, the Attorney General's office is the one that made that ultimate decision. We worked with the state auditor's office. That was occupational schools because they would financially certify these schools. And so there was a lot of back and forth at the time with individuals in the state auditor's office. And currently we're trying to through the division of standards, stand up, be charging. And, you know, there's a there's a coordinating committee there that we work with E.A. a lot. So, you know, I'm very comfortable with those kind of interactions, but those are our peers, right? Those are almost the easier ones, unless there's any territorial issues involved. But the stakeholders, I think, is is where you really can let government shine. So again, I'll move from occupational schools forward, but occupational schools, we would we would have a lot of good interactions with their New England Association. We would attend their events. I would speak at some of those meet the school owners here, what their issues and problems were. And when we updated the regulations, I had weekly phone calls, weekly a month. I can't I can't recall, but it was a regular occurrence phone call. Anyone can jump on it, ask any question you want. You know, it's kind of a open open time for me. And one thing I took from that and, you know, one thing I want you to know about me is I always explain to them, I'll try to give you the best answer, but I'm also comfortable saying I don't know and I will follow up with you. You know, but moving forward more recent, we have a lot of stakeholder interactions when it comes, I would say with trades, you know, hearing, respecting their viewpoints on what experience is necessary, what education is necessary and also trying to figure out through economic development, how can we grow the workforce for the trades for these skilled professions in such a way that doesn't undermine any kind of professionalism that these trades have gained. And that, you know, those are good conversations to have. And and you learn a lot from those. I mean, those are the subject matter experts in their field. They know what they're talking about and you don't come in, you know, as as the government, so to speak, and say, this is how it will have to happen. And, you know, those those are good conversations to have. And, you know, I'll just end with, you know, we we we're really trying to have good, good stakeholder conversations with charging as well. We want to try to establish some kind of framework, but they're the ones that are going to be in the field. So here and again, what do you need and learning from them on what is an important but relatively new area of oversight for for this for the state for the country at large? Do you have any follow up questions? Commissioner, I think you had a second. Oh, I'm sorry. I was going to I think he had a second question. So yeah, so there's this wonky, right, open meeting law, which we we respect the law, but it sometimes creates situations, right? So let's I'll give you a fore instance, right? You know, for instance, you know, Commissioner O'Brien and Commissioner Skinner want to meet with the charging people and me and Brad Commissioner Hill, Chairman Hill, want to meet with the charging people. You know, how do you handle that as executive director? You can only have two of us, right? How do you handle those situations? How would you? How would you tackle that? Well, I would definitely I would want to meet with each of you, whether as the group, if it's a group. Excursion that's happening or individuals understand what is it you're hoping to gain? And let's just say it's everyone wants to gain the same thing. Then it's a conversation of, hey, we do have we have this open meeting law. There seems to be interest of three or more of attending. How best can we ensure we're getting this information from them that we need? What is it we're hoping to accomplish in these meetings? Is this something that will be can be brought back to the Commission? Is this something that needs, I don't want to say a study group, but if it's a long term issue, is this something that we should establish two members who are going to have those regular interactions and try to really find more of a game plan and move it away from, you know, we want to go, we want to go and instead try to focus it at what what is the benefit? What's the Commission hoping to accomplish here? How can we make sure that happens? And perhaps someone would say, you know what? Yeah, I don't have time on my schedule to be participating in these long ongoing discussions with ex stakeholders. And so it makes sense then for these two commissioners, not myself to participate instead. But, you know, those are the those are the tough ones because of the open meeting law. It's great to have this level of transparency in so many ways and it can still be frustrating, something to be good and still frustrating. And I think you've identified one point of where it where it could be. Thank you. So if the Commission is OK, I'll ask a question at this point. If you've ever seen any of our meetings, you know, on the bull in the China shop and I very direct in questions that I ask of everybody that comes before me. So I'm going to be very direct right now to you as well. As I looked over your resume, I think I saw that the most people that you have directly supervised was 30 in your role. And let me just pull it up as the executive director. So my direct question to you is that here at this agency, we have over 100 employees now that you would be supervising. We have many departments, not just one or two. We have, as you already know, we have our legal department. We have our problem gambling that was brought up earlier. We have a horse racing section. We have the IEB. We have sports wagering. And of course, under IEB, we have our friends at the brick and mortar casinos. So the direct question is, I need to know a little bit more about your managing style. So are you hands on? Are you a delegator? How are we going to get to the end result that the commission either votes on or an issue that comes before you that needs to be addressed that may not come before the commission? I'd like to know a little bit more about how you manage and how you would manage now 70 more people than you have in your past. I appreciate that question. You're correct. I managed when there was no chief investigator and when I was deputy general counsel and in general counsel, I did manage the office of investigations. There was four or five supervisors who then managed the remainder the remainder of the of the investigators. And at the time, I also managed office of prosecutions with about 1200 enforcement cases. I definitely delegate. I am not the person who wants to metal and what good work people are doing. And I want to evaluate that. I want to make sure I have that understanding that their work is good. But I'm not there to second guess. I'm not there to say, I wouldn't have done it that way. I can't do that. I can't do that and succeed myself. And I can't do that and allow them to succeed because I want them to. I wanted them at the time to feel part of the team. And it was great when they did when we had the massage initiatives to inspect massage establishments. They're the ones out in the field. I trust that when they go out, they're going to do the work they need to do to ensure compliance. And I'll give you one example of delegation to I had a great opportunity when I was general counsel to hire deputy general counsel who came from human trafficking, Suffolk County DA, Human Trafficking Division. And suddenly we were under scrutiny because we had a lot of massage therapy schools that were sending us applicants that were not either educated, qualified or both. And they had been licensed. That was just the fact. And we had outside parties who became aware of this and said, what are you going to do about it? And how quickly you're going to do it? And we were looking at hundreds and hundreds of license holders. And of course, due process has to be followed. And we only have so many investigators. We only have so many prosecutors and hearings officers. And so, you know, Mary, her name's Mary Rosanthi, you know, she and I sat down in a conference room and, you know, drew it out. How do we envision this happening over one month, three months, six months? And, you know, she and I at the leadership level had that conversation. And then once, you know, I felt comfortable she could do that. Take it, you know, off you go. And she ran with it. And we would have regular check-ins. We would, you know, she would report up to me, you know, maybe identify an issue, identify a good thing. But I was, I had other work to do. I mean, this was, you know, we were dealing with, fortunately, an odd at the time. Even there was a lot of things that were piling on. And I felt so fortunate to have her because she knew more about this than I did. She came from that background of identifying human trafficking victims, of trying to find ways to get them help while also taking their license, which, you know, you're taking the license is one thing, but that doesn't help them. That maybe helps us and protects the public. And so, you know, it's taking those skills of delegating. You know, I oversaw 39 boards at general counsel at one point through my board councils. And I can't know ever, I can't be in every meeting. Some of those boards meet twice a month, certainly once a month. And so I trust my board councils. What is it? You let me know. What is it that is pressing and important? And so I can assist you on that. And maybe I'll hear something else comes along. And we would have to have a conversation about that, but I trust that you'll do that. And so to answer your question directly, I rely and I would rely on good people doing their jobs well to manage those below them. And I would set a leadership structure and a leadership style to rely on what their talent, you know, what they're managing, bringing to me, I want to check in with them to see how best I can lead, but I would never want to slow down the good work that people do. And I trust that's what happened. What is happening here? I have many more questions for you. However, I am going to turn this back to Commissioner Skinner for her next question. Thank you. Thank you, sir. And I am ready. I have lots of questions too. This one, though, is going to try to get at some of your soft skills. It's really like a two part question. What's your approach to collaboration in problem solving and how how do you second part? How do you handle conflict among staff? Um, it's a good question. Give us some of the strategies. Yeah, so for collaboration, I think it's important to come in with a rough agenda. I think it's good to start meetings always with some structure. But if you're doing this collaboration, you want it to feel like it's collaborative to the folks who are on the meeting with you also. So the strategy is to lay out, you know, here's, here's our project. Here's our goal. Here's our timeline. This is what my expectation roughly is, you know, we can do X, Y and Z by these milestones, but then open up the floor and take, you know, almost like the depending on the size of the folks in the meeting, but almost take like a Supreme Court viewpoint that every person gets to speak once before someone gets to speak twice. Because, you know, one of the weaknesses I'm happy to share with you that I've overcome over the years is not speaking up. And it's not because I'm shy. Or I don't, I'm not confident. It's just sometimes I feel like, well, you know, someone has kind of already said it, someone may have already made that point, man, maybe that point's no longer one to be made. And I think that's a disservice because you're never going to say exactly what someone else says unless you're parodying. But most people are not going to do that. They're going to say it differently. And they're going to say it in a way that you may not have thought of. And I think, you know, in a collaborative environment, you want to make it, you want to make it open for folks to say something who may be the ones that are a little more quiet. And that doesn't mean they don't have a lot to bring. It just means they may not feel like they should or it's worth it. Or maybe they also may be recede into I just don't care. But I think they do. I mean, people want to shop to work and like their work. And so my collaborative environment is always. And so I've tried to take that weakness and as a leader, use it to my advantage of being a little quieter of certainly directing, certainly stepping in, certainly ending the meeting with understandable agenda and what our takeaway is. But also allowing that quietness to empower others. And even, you know, to some extent challenging to people what they have to say and what the decisions they think need to be made. And really trying to tease that out of them in a respectful and fair way. To move to conflict, that's, you know, that's the more, that's the more difficult one. And it depends on the nature of the conflict. Certainly there are times when you just need to involve HR. That it has, you know, you've you've and I may get in, I'm guessing here, this is may not be just the HR issue, but more of in a group environment, if there seems to be conflict between individuals or between competing ideas. And that's where as a leader, you do have to then make those decisions. And you have to move it off of those in a conflicting state. So if they think, well, this person, you know, got their way over here. It's no I as the leader have made that decision that we're going in that direction because I think based on what I've heard from that from all of you, that's the decision that needs to be made. And you try to move it then away from an individual if there's that conflict onto yourself as the decision and as the leader. Thank you. Thank you. You have any follow up at this point? Not at this time. I have other questions, but I'll yield. Okay. So the chair recognizes Commissioner O'Brien. Sure. I'm going to dovetail off something commissioners going to brought up in that question, which is something this commission also cares very much about, which is diversity and the voices not only bringing people in but sort of the voices that are here. So can you talk to us about your experience in that regard? What you think you could bring as executive director on that to this commission? Sure. And I think a good way to view that too is to because I appreciate the commission's principles on DEI. And I think, you know, there are two inward looking, I would say, for an organization, which is what kind of culture are you setting and what are your hiring practices? And so I can tell you from the cultural, from the culture setting, you know, how do people feel in the environment? Do they feel they can be the person they want to be? You know, that that's really it's set at the top, if there isn't that comfortability, meaning like, you want to make sure people know they can be who they are. And that's, you know, that's challenging, certainly. But it is, you know, making sure, for example, there was a minor making sure if someone has a preferable name, we use that when addressing them. I mean, that's who they want to be addressed as or they want to, you know, use their formal name. I only say that because it was in a recent, you know, recent example for me. But it's really making sure that people feel comfortable. It's, you know, having you have events, certainly, you could have respect and fairness, I think, making sure that people come to work wanting to be there and wanting to be who they are. And, and, you know, go back to conflicts is paying attention when those conflicts arise when there are instances where someone does not feel that way and addressing those immediately and making clear there's zero tolerance for that. And I think you don't turn to hiring as well. And I would say I tried to set that in all the positions I've held. And, you know, you sometimes just can't come out and say that, you know, be who you are, you have to see instead you show respect, you show fairness, you show openness to individuals. And I think that's how you create that environment. It's one thing to just say it and say that's our principles, that's our policy. But to actually demonstrate and show that to people, which I think I do, allows them to be more comfortable and to know like, okay, yeah, this is someone who appreciates and respects me. Hiring I think is important. I think it's to make sure you have candidates that don't just come from one stream. I mean, you know, is there a skill based assessments that need to be elevated or appreciated as much as education? Are we restricting our candidate polls by saying everything needs a bachelor's degree? When you may have the experience coming in that someone with a bachelor's degree doesn't have, but you feel like, well, I shouldn't apply for that position then because I don't have that bachelor's degree. But I have all this other knowledge that I could bring to the table. And we miss out on that because of it. And so when I look through, you know, certainly applications, I don't just look for, all right, where did you go? You know, what's your bachelor's degree? And then, okay, you met that criteria, move on. But is there a way to when the governor has recently moved in this direction of skill base, is to look at other factors there? And you could say, well, yeah, you're going to bring this diverse background experience to us. And we're going to benefit from it as well. And it's something you always, I think, have to stay on top of. I would say that. Thank you. Mr. Chairman? Of course. If I could have a follow up to Commissioner Bryant's question. Chair recognizes commissioners. Thank you. Clinton. Much of the commission's work is on diversity is in part driven by its internal equity and inclusion work group. And part of that group's charge is to acknowledge our cultural differences, try to address any systemic issues, eliminate barriers, not just internally, but our external audiences as well. And so my question to you is, how would you mitigate any inadvertent negative impacts of any policies or practices of this commission to individuals and communities of color throughout throughout the Commonwealth? Yeah, that's those are the other three principles, right? It's regulatory review. And I appreciate the commission said every three years, you know, go through the regulations, which I think is good practice. Anyways, but what are any barriers that we can identify with that, you know, anti racist lens? Specifically, you know, what are the barriers that we may be erecting? And examine then? Are they needed? Force if they're explicit, they're not. But if there's that implicit sentiment, what can we do to change that? What can we do to mitigate that? And then you have a community impact itself? How can we use the community mitigation fund? How can we ensure that vendors are being brought in, who have more of a diverse background? Through procurement, what are the what are we doing there to ensure that folks are knowing about these any kind of contracts that are available? Are we doing that kind of outreach? Or are we just going the traditional route that may not reach everyone may not reach individuals, groups, organizations that don't use those traditional means? That's what I think. I think there are methods. And I think the Internet is a great resource here. I mean, you know, what are the associations and organizations out there? Can we partner with them? What is in the community gets self? Are we working with the right folks? Do we need to reassess who we're working with or expand who we're working with to make sure that we're aware as a commission of any kind of harm that is happening or could happen or has happened to a community to make sure you all and I know you have the research arm are assessing those and continuously assessing those kind of negative impact so you can use appropriately the community mitigation fund to really mitigate but also try to get folks and individuals who have been harmed back to where they were, if not better. But it's a continuous challenge. And I think it's incumbent upon all of us to continue to challenge ourselves that we're looking at it, looking at these issues through that lens. Thank you for your answer. Okay. Chair recognizes Commissioner Maynard. So thank you, Chair. Pivoting a little bit. And you opened up your statement with sort of your background. What do you think? Leadership big L leadership is? How would you define it? And what kind of skills, you know, empathy? Otherwise, could you bring to that position? As I said before to leadership isn't management. Leadership is expanding your team's understanding and appreciation for the jobs they're doing and the tasks before them. An example. We have again, the massage therapy. Someone could just be, you know, at their desk, looking at an application, and it could seem pretty routine, right? Pretty, maybe even boring. Right? You know, they went here, they have they have they have the notary, they have the school information. All right, good to go. But if you tell that person and you get them excited about being part of no, you can help stop fraudulent licensees coming in to the commonwealth. Your review is actually our first line of defense and stopping that like that is a different way for them to see how they're viewing an application before them. And I've done applications, I get it, they can be very rote. But it's making sure and wanting people to feel that they play a part, which is what a leader does. You play a part in this mission we have together. A manager. And there are certainly times just, you know, management's fine is your tasks today are to process 10 applications. Good, you did that. Good work, you know, and you can feel good about yourself for that too. But a leader would say, yeah, this is great work, or hey, you caught one. Look at that. Someone's not going to get that license because you were able to maybe pay a little more attention. Or the person feels even better about themselves because they do feel like they're part of that team. And I think that's what a leader constantly has to assess is making sure, you know, her team is not going stale, meaning they're losing interest. Time has gone on and they've kind of forgotten the mission. Or they don't feel like they're being pumped up, which is an important part of being a leader is to pumping up your team is to tell them they're doing a great job. You know, and finding different ways of expressing that to them. So that's how I see a leader. And may I may ask what the. Yeah, I mean, I'm really going to without going too far in the process. What what Commissioner O'Brien and I and subcommittee found was there was a heightened level of emotional intelligence that people associated with you when we checked in. And and I just want to make sure that that's a true and he kind of teased that out here on the floor in the public, right. And so empathy was the word that we hurt. And so, you know, giving you an opportunity to shine really. Well, I appreciate that. I do have that. I credit my mother for for giving me that. It comes easily for me to identify with other individuals to not want to hurt them. Doesn't mean you don't manage them. You don't mean doesn't mean you don't hold them accountable, but don't hurt them. Don't make people feel bad about themselves. I don't like bullying. It's it's one of the I just don't. And it's very important to me that any work environment I'm in, no one feels that they're being bullied. And that's sometimes not just direct, but that's making sure again they feel they can say what they need to say at meetings that they're not being silenced. And so I do have that. I'm I and that's why I think I've been successful the teams I've led is because I have heard from them. I've checked in with them. I've asked about sincerely asked about things going on in their life. Recognizing that work does take a back seat. Sometimes the life and that's OK. We did happens to us all but really trying to hear from them too. What are their issues and concerns they may be having that day. And and really listening to them. And I have to just brag on myself a little too. I am an exceptional listener. And that's it's a skill you develop. But I will say I do that. And I really try to internalize and hear what people are saying to me from what perspective they bring it to me from. I just have one follow-up chair. Of course. Since I let you shine. I'm going to take the day of Clinton taught me this. You know where's the places where you need to work on to shine a little bit more. Yeah. So I've identified one before which I think I've successfully overcome over the years which is speaking up more taking more of that leadership role in meetings making sure people understand the voice and what my opinion is on something. I also think I have a tendency not to. I was I was thinking about this. It's kind of a hybrid one. It's a tendency to over the study I guess over prepare over want to do like almost to the umpteenth on something. And that sounds great. Right. And it's great if you're practicing studying for the LSAT. You know if you're doing some kind of competition. But we all know in the jobs we have you can't do that all the time. You have to be able to say. Yeah. I did this work. I trust my work product. Could it be better. Yeah. Probably. But I've got these four other tasks and there are now my priorities and this one has to be has to be pushed off. And I mean that sincerely because you I don't like to have something sent out that I don't think high quality. But I but you know you also don't want to be asked by your supervisor. Oh that's great. You know read all nicely. Now where's these other four things I asked for and to be like well. I had I didn't get to them because of this. And one thing I always try to tell my team is let me I will tell you the priorities. Come to me if you ever need those explained to you or if you think the priorities are clashing. But the big thing I always want people to walk away from me is knowing what the deadlines are and knowing what the priorities are. And I think those kind of go in hand with with that kind of tendency to want to over. Overstudy is not the right word but overproduce may be is the better word there. Thank you. Thank you chair. I think your questions answered a few of mine. I'm going to ask it and make sure that there's nothing you want to add to it. But I think you've just covered most of it. I was going to ask you how would you would describe yourself as a leader which I think you've done pretty well so far. And as a person which I think you have done and then I was going to ask you if I sat down with a business associate or one of your co-workers how would they describe you. And I think you've touched upon that just now. Do you want to add anything to that before I ask my next question. One thing I do think they would say I'm funny as well. Well if anybody knows me they know I love humor. Yes. So that would be a great asset. And you just touched upon this about how you can speak comfortably now. You're going to be the face of this agency. So tell me how comfortable you're going to be in public speaking not only to this board which is always out on to the world. But there are going to be other times when you are going to be the face of this agency where you will have to be in public speaking possibly to large groups or to small groups. Tell me how you're going to feel about that. Because it's important. It is. It absolutely is. And I've had I've had a background in that certainly with occupational schools often attend events speak to large groups. You know, large being maybe hundreds which was more of a speech setting. So you're not really challenged much in what you're saying. I can kind of be broad. And then I've also spoken in front of interested school owners who really wanted to understand how particular this was had to do with veterans, how particular regulations were going to impact their school or provisions of federal law. And there it's a different level of comfort because you are publicly speaking. But you're also being publicly challenged and not wanting to and we'll be here. Yeah, I'm sure not first let that throw you meaning to keep your composure. I find speaking, you know, never yelling is usually a good rule of thumb. Speaking a little more slowly to make sure people are understanding what you're having to say. But, you know, at the end of the day, it's the confidence in what I'm saying that gives me the confidence to speak. And what I mean by that is knowing confident and what I'm saying. You need that background. You need that knowledge just to be able to back yourself up in your head that if something or someone were to challenge you, you know, know, I think this is still the correct decision or this was the right policy and they're going to have a disagreement with you and that's fine. But having that confidence in your head through what you've studied, through what you've experienced, the knowledge, what you've read just to tell yourself, you know, stay the course on this one. And it is it's a developing thing, I think, for I think for folks, it's you continuously develop that skill in public speaking, public comfort and being publicly challenged. I just want to remind the board that we have now hit an hour. I'm very comfortable moving forward with more questions. I think this is obviously going to be one of the most important things that we do. This year is as higher this executive director. So if the commission feels comfortable, I don't mind going through one more round of questions with every commissioner if you're OK. So with that, so with that said, the chair recognizes Commissioner Skinner. Clinton, an old boss of mine used to say, don't let perfect be the enemy of the good. And that was his general outlook. But I swore he was talking to me directly. So I can relate. I understand the desire to want to throw yourself into everything equally. My question is, what key points do you believe an executive director needs to assess before making a critical decision on behalf of this commission? First thing I would do in that situation is look at my notes, look at the minutes, make sure I understood clearly what the direction of the commission was. My understanding what I need to do on their behalf. Then I would want to determine what is it, what steps need to be taken. To accomplish that, who needs to be involved in that and what's the timeline. And so with the steps and who needs to be involved, they're probably going to go hand in hand. So do I need to talk to this individual? Do I need to make sure this individual understands that they're part of this task and what the task is, what the timeline is, the deadline. And again, it goes to that leadership, getting them involved in what it is being accomplished here or being effectuated. And then having that, you know, mapped out, you determine who needs to know. Do I need to provide any updates to individual commissioners? Are there stakeholders here that, by necessity, need to be outreached, have an outreach done to them? Are there other agencies that, for, you know, certain reasons may need to be involved or alerted? You want to know what the task is, but also know what the ancillary like items are that also have to be done or could be impacted here. And so that you at the end of the day know clearly, you know what it is you're doing, why you're doing it, who's involved the timeline and anyone else who needs to be involved in that in order to accomplish it. And then, of course, have any, you know, if you're able to have a check-in with an individual commissioner, perhaps the one that has, you know, the particular issue in mind or wanted it done through a commission just to ensure that you are following that direction correctly, I always find that to be helpful, especially as you move towards any kind of intermediate or final decision or step on that process. Thank you. Chair recognizes Commissioner O'Brien. Sure. So the one area that the executive director is responsible for, we haven't really talked about is the operations and the budget for the office and working with the CFO. The CFO is the one position that the executive director hires as opposed to this body for any delegation of it. So what you talked a little bit about setting up the agency that took over from Desi, but can you talk about your ops experience, your operations experience and any budget experience you might have? Yeah, that's I think that's a that operations itself, I think would be setting up the occupational schools further with more regulations with kind of staffing out the investigators who are already there. We didn't hire them specifically for that, which prosecutors going to be involved and then ensuring that there was a clear structure for the schools to understand, you know, here is your renewal cycle. Here's the documentation of paperwork and for a lot of these schools this was new as in addition to the fee being new, which is always something that's going to interest them. Here's how we're calculating your fee and how and when that money came in, how we best reported it up because by statute, we were supposed to be a self-sustaining unit. So we, you know, we reported those numbers up, including how our FTE what our FTE count was. And I think we did a successful job doing that on the operational side. The other the other was setting up the behavioral analyst license itself, which involved quite a bit of stakeholder outreach with the behavioral analyst community who are very excited to have this license. But that that required working within our own databases, our e-licensing systems to set up a new license type. Everything from what needs to go on the renewal, the application to what's the fee. And those are a lot of small components of that that go into setting up something that for me coming in they may be thinking, oh, this is relatively simple. And it's not, you know, it's a lot of meetings with IT. It's a lot of meetings with our unit, our group, our stakeholders and a lot of outreach there to ensure that that operation was set up and was understandable so people could start getting their licenses. And I do think that was also a successful, a successful enterprise. The budget I candid, I have limited experience with that. Here's, I would rely on the CFO good people in good places to assist, to help me understand that. My responsibility is in roles. And, you know, I like to think of it as many areas that I've had to delve into as a learnable skill. I really paid no attention to the building code until it landed on my desk as a particular issue. You know, with various components that folks may have had issues with with the 10th edition, which is currently under review. And you dive right in it. You figure out what it means for this to be a requirement for this use group. And you approach it and you understand it and you ask a lot of questions. And you hope the other people, the other individuals appreciate those questions that come from a place of ignorance to knowledge. And that over time, or that's one month, three months, you gain that knowledge allowing you to be a partner to them. They're always going to be the expert, a subject matter expert, but a partner who's able to ask the right questions and have that understanding that you can actually work as a team there. But again, recognize that they're the ones that they're experts part of the team, part of the larger team. Thank you. So I'm gonna talk a little bit about the public safety piece. And that's, you know, you spent time as a regulatory prosecutor. You managed the prosecutors. At one point you managed, looking at your resume, the investigations. Tell us a little bit about what you can bring here. I mean, this body, this commission deals with slightly different, but a lot of the same issues. We have hearing officers, we have, but you're sitting in front of the actual final body here at least at the MGC. So can you just talk a little bit about that? Sure. And I know the commission has a charge for reviewing suitability of potential police license holders. And it's very similar in that sense that gatekeeper role or what is absolutely prohibited for an individual to have on their record what is permissible subject to gaming review. And I think that for those of us who do issue licenses is one of the most important roles you're going to play. Because that license means a lot to the public. It says a lot about the entity that is operating. That the government has said they have met minimum standards, certainly, but important minimum standards. And so I take that public safety responsibility very seriously. And I'm cognizant of the fact of the on-site presence at the casinos in the investigation enforcement bureau. Because you want to provide that level of assurance to the public through your interactions, probably more with the casino staff, themselves that you're there, that you have a presence here and you want to assure that a public safety is being met. Because rightly or wrongly, there is a perception about casinos and maybe perhaps that's an outdated one. That certain things happen when the casinos come in. And I think it's an important thing that the casinos certainly would want a perception change. But that is also part of what the commission's mission is, is to minimize that harm. But it's always the balancing act, too. You don't want to be big brother at these establishments either. And so it's an important balancing, I would say. That I do have that background in certainly with inspections. Overseens those inspections, whether it's schools, massage, cosmetology, but also recognize that there's a business there that needs to also be able to operate. I yield, Mr. Chairman. Okay. This is going to be my last question, but believe it or not, we still have a couple more questions to ask after a month. When I got appointed here, I know that the MGC had a great reputation. I just knew it. And then when I got here, I found out why. And it was because of the employees that are here. Great employees throughout every department. And I think one of the things that most impressed me was the stability, the continuity, the longevity of years that our staff stays here. And that includes our directors. You may know our former executive director spent almost, if not 10 years here, in varying positions. Our IEB director was here for many, many years. And if you go around, and I'm thinking behind this wall, the many employees that have been here for so many years and the great work they do. Here's my direct question. Where do you see yourself in five years? If I were to be honored to get this position, it would be here. What you will see from my resume and record is I have moved up, I have been promoted, but I have stayed within the economic development secretariat and more specifically at Consumer Affairs and Occupational Licensure. I like growing in an environment that I also think is good. So where I come from, that has great people. That you can trust the work they're doing. I, again, I've worked with my current supervisor boss. This is my third time around. Because I recognize good leaders and I want to follow them and I want to learn from them. And so I take this change very seriously. I take it, I also want once best for me too and I haven't, I didn't apply, we didn't pursue this lightly. And so when I, again, given the opportunity, I would take that role very seriously because I'd want to grow in it. I'd want to learn in it. I'd want to get to know the team, be part of that team and that culture too. And then allow myself and have those new skills and experiences for myself and to better serve the commission. Okay, thank you very much. By the chair, I recognize this commissioner, Skinner. Thank you. This is my final question. As we prepare to make a decision today on who the next executive director is for the commission, what is it that you would like us to know about you that might tip the scale in your favor? It's a pleasure to meet you. And it's unfortunate that we have just a short amount of time to really get to know who you are and to determine whether you are the right fit for this agency. So I would turn to you to give us any additional insight that you want to share with us as we decide today. I appreciate that. I don't want to repeat myself too much, but I do see myself as a pleasant person who respects and values others. I enjoy working in a collaborative environment, especially with good people who are doing their jobs well. I have a really good sense of humor. Can't really come out in these settings so much, but I think that's a good, I think it's a good thing to have because you do need to make light at times. And it's actually with your peers too. You have that sense of eye roll or, you know, let's just take a couple of minutes and just talk about how crazy this is and then move on from there. I think it's an important kind of team building thing to have. Certainly I can say I work hard. I strive to know what I don't know. I can tell you I will always either answer your question or say I don't know, but I will find that answer for you. I would never want to wing it because that never works for me. I guess I'm just not good at it. So what I would promise you though is that and that hopefully would give you in the commission confidence that, you know, I take seriously the question you've asked. It's not about me, you know, getting it right. It's not like I get points for that. It's you've asked the question because you need the information and my job is to go get that if asked for you. It's not to look, you know, impressive in front of you. So I take seriously that and would never want to lead you or any of the commissioners astray in that way. So in that sense, I do have that integrity and sense of honesty about me as well. Okay, thank you. Thank you. The chair recognizes Commissioner O'Brien. So I'm in a slightly different stead. I've had the opportunity to have this be the second time that we've talked. I think commissioner Maynard sussed out, you know, some of what wasn't coming through that we had discovered. And in the interest of time, do not feel obligated to answer this question. It is similar to the one commissioner Skinner just asked. I always used to end, you know, interview prep this way, which is, you know what we've asked you? We know what we're interested in. Is there anything that you feel like you wouldn't want to leave here today, not having the opportunity to bring to our attention? I would just leave. I think I'd want to leave you with is that I, you know, I've been a general council two times now, deputy general council, but I understand that there is some, there is policy direction as well. It's not just that I'm not entering this to be the attorney. I don't want to be the attorney of this, you know, because there was a great attorney and that's a different role. But I just want you to understand that I, even as the general council, will want and find ways to effectuate the policy that my boss and supervisor gives to me. I do it in a way that I think is within my current role, the bounds of the law and permitted. But when I am given a task, when I'm issued a job to do, I do it. And if I'm, you know, I say, I speak up when I need to, meaning, you know, I don't think we can do it this way. What about this way? I would certainly give advice and say, you know, this may be a faster, easier way to do that. But I appreciate very much the role that you all are appointed to do. And that is different than if hired, whoever you hire is different than the role of this executive director. And that's why I just return to that, to that chief of staff, you know, executive director to really effectuate what the decisions are that you all would make. Thank you. Thank you. The chair recognizes Commissioner Maynard. Mr. Chairman, I think that my fellow commissioners have exhausted all of my questions. I know you'll probably think the applicant, but I would just take this time to thank you for coming in and doing this public process, which isn't easy. So thank you. I appreciate that. Thank you, sir. Thank you. So my two colleagues at the end, I think, have already done this for you. I was gonna give you an offer of a closing statement if you would like to make one, but I think he made it. But I'm still gonna offer it to you if you would like to make a closing statement at this time. I would just thank you all again for this great opportunity. Something may not get an opportunity to do again, which is interview in front of the public and live streaming like this. And that's since it's interesting, but in seriousness, I do appreciate the opportunity. And of course, which best of luck whoever is chosen for this. So I would just end with that. I wanna thank you and thank you for that. I wanna thank you for applying. Yes. Obviously, there was quite a process put into place and for you to be able to make it to this part of the process is kudos to you. I appreciate that. We did give you a lot of hard questions and you were able to answer them and we appreciate that. Just so you know, process-wise for us at this point, we have one more interview, of course. And at that, after that time, in public, we'll discuss and debate and we will make a decision at that time. Should you be offered this position? Then obviously a background check. No, so I'm remiss in not bringing this your attention. Thank you. The final part of the work of the subcommittee is both the candidates in front of you today have undergone a background and there was absolutely nothing seen by state police that would interfere with their ability to simply separate themselves from where they are and come to us. I thank you for that clarification. So for now, that will be the process and you would be notified today. Correct. Should you be chosen or should you not? Sure. I appreciate that as well. I appreciate that. So to my fellow commissioners, if there's nothing else that you would like to add, I am going to ask for a 10 minute recess so that we can clear the room. And bring down our other candidate and you need to drink a water or something this would be the time to do it. So at this point, the commission will go into a brief recess for 10 minutes. Thank you. Thank you. OK, we are back. So at this point, I will bring the commission back into order and I would ask that our second candidate to be interviewed for the executive director's position, Dean Surfer, come on in to our room and have a seat. Good to see you again. Good to see you again. Thanks so much. Nice to meet you. Good to see you. Good to see you. Hello. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. Yeah. Appreciate you. We're at. Yeah. Have it ready. Feel free to have a seat. Yeah. And I made these opening comments earlier so I'll make them again. First and foremost, just wanted to let you know that Chairwoman Judge Stein recused herself as you probably had heard. Sure. She will be departing her position, as you know, this Thursday. So she just thought that she would leave it up to us for because she wouldn't be working with the new executive director. So I wanted to let you know that's why she's not here today. Absolutely. And I want to thank you for coming forward with your application. And thank you for applying for this position. I want you to feel as comfortable as you possibly can be. As you know, this is being streamed and this is public, which is never easy. But please feel as comfortable as you can, especially with this motley crew up here. Yep. I'm comfortable in the positions. Excellent. So I'm going to give you an opportunity at this time to make an opening statement, if you would like. Okay, terrific. Well, I appreciate, obviously, the opportunity to be here, right, and I'm happy and I enjoyed the process of going through to getting to this point. And I want to thank the subcommittee, of course, right, because I know they had a lot of work to do to go through their candidates and I had an excellent, I really enjoyed our meeting together as a subcommittee and with Chief Maldrew and Derek. And I feel like I had a good hearing in order to make myself heard, right? So I appreciate the opportunity to be here with the full board and I hope we can talk today about a lot of different issues and qualities that I have and tasks that you need accomplished. But I do think I want to make sure you know that I am the role for executive director at the gaming commission is something I'd very much like to do. It's exciting to me as an opportunity and I think I'd be very good at it. I'd be able to perform quite well and demonstrate success and provide real leadership to the organization. You know, I think that's what an executive director are part of what the executive director needs to do. So I'm looking forward to discussing it. We had a great discussion really, I thought at the first meeting and I'm hopeful this one will be just as good. Well, thank you. So with that said, we're going to kick it off right now and we're going to start with my good friend down at the left of me and to the right of you, commissioner Skinner. Sure. If you don't mind. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Good afternoon, right? Good afternoon. Mr. Serper, I'm going to call you Dean as well. Excellent. That's okay with you. Love it. Just noting that you currently serve as chair of the gaming policy advisory committee. And my question to you is why are you interested in this particular position, this executive director of the gaming commission role? Mm-hmm, sure. So I think being the executive director for the Massachusetts gaming commission, it's a position, the open position is a position that would provide me a fair amount of management opportunity, which is what I'm looking for in my next position, right? I find that now I'm at a point in my career where I really want to be thoughtful about where I end up next, right? And so when there was an opening, I thought about it to some degree. And what I would point out is I consider myself a manager of people and projects more than anything else, right? And I have my MBA from Suffolk University and it's in general management and that's what I like to do. I like to move projects from A to Z and I like to lead teams that are moving projects from A to Z. And I think I'm very good at it. I think there's a lot of people who would agree that I'm very good at it. And so to get to your question exactly is I think that's an excellent description of what an executive director needs to do. It's very similar to a sort of chief of staff role, but as an executive director, you need to build the roster of projects that are ongoing, have a complete set of requirements, build an action plan for those tasks, and then make sure that progress is being made as you move those projects along the continuum, right? So that's a skill set that I have that I very much have and I think would be extremely helpful to the organization. Meanwhile, in the role of executive director, you obviously have the opportunity to provide leadership to the organization and that's a role that's important to me at this point in my career, right? Is I want to be at a place where they were looking for someone to bind the organization together and lead it forward. And the subject matter, of course, does have interest to me, right? It's, I am on the Gaming Policy Advisory Committee, but it's a new and interesting in the context of Massachusetts, right? But so the subject matter is there. The responsibilities of an executive director are ones that are very appealing to me, right? The people, the people that I know and the people that I've met seem to be excellent. And I've worked for a number of highly functioning and highly successful teams and through the work on the Gaming Policy Committee and also obviously through what I've watched and reviewed in preparation for this. It seems like the group here is also another highly functioning set of experts who are very good at what they do. So I'd like to, you know, I would like to be part of that team and I'd like to lead that team if I have the opportunity. Okay, a follow-up. In your capacity as chair of G-PAC, what have you gleaned are the biggest challenges facing the gaming, sports wage, or any horse racing industry? Yep. Well, I think right now, it's likely to define the biggest challenges for the gaming industry, at least in Massachusetts. I mean, I think you have to start with responsible gaming, right? And the sports wagering situation, you know, it's brand new to Massachusetts and it's growing. I feel that, I'll come back to that in a second. I think, you know, obviously from what I can see, there's continuous development, right? Of the technology and the industry and needing to keep up with those changes as a regulatory agency, right? And then the legislative construct that goes along with that, right? Because legislation happens so slowly and the technology happens so quickly, right? So, you know, keeping ahead of that curve, if you possibly could, I would say it would probably be a likely challenge. But I think, I think we, I think as an organization, I know with the research agenda that we're keeping tabs on responsible gaming and what's gonna happen with sports wagering. At least it's a paramount responsibility organization right now. You know, I am, I'm fathered to a 13 year old boy, right? And he has his little iPhone, right? And he watches the games. And I never had that sort of temptations, I guess, I don't know if you'd call it as I grew up, right? It was never an issue for me. And I was certainly never alone with a gaming instrument right in my hand. So, I think that measuring, monitoring, and I guess legislating, if necessary, on responsible gaming is probably the biggest challenge for Massachusetts right now, at least in my opinion. Mm-hmm, thank you. I have just one more introductory question for you. You touched on your project management interest and obviously it's just sprinkled all through your resume and so you do consider it a core competency. Could you tell us about a couple of the projects that you've managed over the years, recent projects? Yeah, of course, sure. I think if I were to answer that question best, I guess in the short term, I would point to a few items. When I worked in the executive office, right? I would say the first thing that's an obvious example is the entire transition into the office of itself, right? So I was the operations person at that point in time, right? So this would be in 2015, right? And so in that situation, you're bringing a group of people who have various levels or very little level of experience into literally a shell of an office, a shell of an operation and you're needing to equip it and outfit it and more importantly design all of the processes, right? Processes between departments that need to happen. So I working of course with the Chief of Staff at the time, we had to put together a plan, but more to the point, a group of people and a set of circumstances that worked within a few weeks, right? You have a few weeks to put it together, you get to the state house and you come into your space and you have a staff of 60 people or so and you need to start operating on a daily basis for your changing things. So that is a role that the operations people had a large responsibility for. I would also say, I think it's hard not to talk about the pandemic, right? No one was expecting it, of course, and our office went from, oh yeah, we'll be here to everybody go home and it was like five work days that that happened, but we needed to change our operation and research and deploy technology and equipment and even systems, right? That would allow our staff to work at home and to accomplish all of their same requirements. I mean, just like most other offices had to go and do the same thing, right? We are a very, it was an important office, right? We need to get it right and we need to get it right soon. So that had a lot of demands on me as a manager and on our IT department, of course, and dealing through the technology changes and testing those technologies and demoing those technologies and deploying those technologies was certainly a challenge, one that we navigated very successfully, no doubt in my mind, anyhow. I would point to the return to work was a huge project, right? Because the goalpost kept moving, right? But you needed to be prepared to bring people back and protect them in the workplace with distance measures and mask measures and hoteling situations, where were people gonna sit and work and how much space did you have? Those are all, you know, might call them project manager and I call them my responsibilities, right? I think if you were gonna pick a specific project that we worked on in the executive office, we did do a, in the second term, an IT rollout where we had a rollout, we upgraded, we had a customer relation management database, right? That had been in use, it's been in use for many, many years, but when we came in 2015, we knew that we wanted to upgrade it. We didn't do that in the first term, but in the second term, we did, we moved it to a cloud-based database and that, of course, required the whole project manager, right now, where you bring the project team together and the technology team and the users come together and come up with a plan and move that to the cloud and migrate the data. That's a very concrete project, but most of my projects are daily and system-based. Build a system that will help us keep this person informed or keep this person traveling, keep this person briefed, or keep this staff able to communicate with this staff, this group of staff, with this other group of staff. I'll stop there. It's totally apparent. There's a lot of project management in my bones and some of the projects are more interesting than others, but it is what I like to do. Thank you. Okay, at this time, I would recognize Commissioner O'Brien. Thank you. It's good to see you. Absolutely, thank you. I call you Mr. Cerber Dean, whatever you're here. Dean works well. So one of the things that I learned about you in the course of this also was there's a tremendous humility to how you describe what you've accomplished. I mean, you've just described some pretty mammoth projects and you've very understated in the presentation. And so what I would invite you now to puff a little bit about what your management experience is, the level of personnel, the size of the organization that you were just talking about. And then if you could also, as part of that, describe your management style in terms of how you interact with the people that you're supervising. Yeah, absolutely. It's going to be difficult for me to puff too much. I guess I would report that for many, many years, for many decades, I have been part of organizations that needed a lot of different things to be accomplished. And typically, they would come to me and say, here's our problem. We need you to take care of it. We think you can do it. Usually when you, you know, and go, right? And whether that's setting up a full-blown statewide gubernatorial campaign or doing an inauguration in five or six weeks after a successful one while you're doing the transition into the executive office or if it's creating systems, you know, I think creating systems in the executive branch where you've got six or seven departments, they all need to work together and you have this goal where the principles are walking into a room at a certain point in time, right? This is ongoing, right? Every day, they have 10 or 12 of these and you need to coordinate the activities of these groups so that each time they move from room to room to room from event to event to event, they're ready. Create that system. Now, when you're creating that system, you're working with all the other department heads. But in my particular role, I was ultimately responsible for the preparation for when they arrived, you know, when they are, any meeting responsibility that they have by the time they sat down in the chair, everything needed to be appropriate for that. That's my puffing, right? I do, I manage large groups and I like to do that. As far as size, right? So in the executive office, we were a staff of like 65, maybe sometimes 75, depending on things. In that area, you know, I had direct reports of maybe eight to 10, maybe 12 at times. It depends on the different parts of the administration. There were more people under me. Toward the end, there were a lot of people under me. But in that situation, you know, in that office, in the areas in which I was involved, when I was involved, I often would be in charge of everybody, right? Almost everybody. Because we were focused on a project that was, you know, for the common, for the common good, right? So they'd say whether it's a major policy speech, a major event, you know, a stateless commonwealth speech, or anything that we were trying to accomplish as an office, but that had an operational component to it. I would typically be in charge of that as an event or as an occasion. Everybody would play the role of the communications people, obviously, the lead in communication, the legislative affairs, people of the lead in legislative affairs. But when I came to managing the activities of the whole thing to get it over the goal line at the end, that would often be my responsibility. You know, I did, when I was at the Department of Economic Development, I was the chief of staff there, right? So this is a slightly larger organization. It's maybe 120 to 150 FTE. And you've got your agency heads that you manage, right? Chief of staff, you know, everything is a responsibility of the chief of staff. And so, you know, you've got the executive office up here and you've got your sub agencies here. I would say, you know, that's, that was probably the largest single group when I was chief of staff at the Department of Economic Development where I had six or seven agency heads. You have the executive office itself with a, you know, communications person, a legal counsel, and a CFO, right? And then your chief of staff, and then there's the secretary. But then you've got your nine, six, 79 department heads. I think my management style would be, I think people would describe it as focused and determined and thoughtful, right? I typically spend a lot of time at the beginning of the project defining what it is we're trying to accomplish, what we think the right steps are gonna be to get from A to Z, and then, you know, parcel out the responsibilities among the team. That's management style, but it's not leadership style, right? In a leadership way, you need to, you know, it's a little bit different with each member of the team, right, but I think generally people would describe me as a leader who leads by example, who wants to be there with you in the task and is able to assist staff who maybe are less skilled or less experienced at what we're doing, but think, don't worry, you know, you can do this and I'm gonna get you there and I'll show you step by step how to do it. Then there's other staff where that's less necessary. So, you know, you're leading them by saying, you know, here's why this is important, here's why it's important to the organization as a whole and you're playing an important role for us, let's go, let's get there. So that's level of project management, size of staff, and management style, but happy to do more. So one of the things that wasn't clear to me in the beginning but became clear during the subcommittee process also was some of the descriptions you have on the resume, the succinctness with which you put it on here belies the complexity of the situation. So I'm gonna give it for instance and ask you to describe in more detail when you talk about, you know, and you alluded to this, the coordinated office safety planning during different events in Massachusetts. You know, you were the team that got everyone ready when they were traveling around and I'm blanking on the term of art, which I'm sure it was an advanced team. It was essentially the advanced team, which I think looking at, you know, talk a little bit more about what that entailed and sort of the complexities of what that entailed. And briefing. Yeah. And briefings? Yeah. Well, you mentioned the term security. And security at the state house also as well, right? Right, okay. Because there's principle security, right? Yep. Which I was always involved in and then security of the state house. Let me move that one off first because it'll be easy to do. So, you know, we're a staff, in the executive office, you're a staff of people, right? And they're working in a building just like here, there's a staff and they're working in a building. It's a complicated building to work in and frankly, also the executive office itself is not just one office in that building. It's like six, seven, eight, 10 different spaces in the building, right? So for the security with the state house component, we started very early on in 2015 having real discussions about what needed to happen, what needed to be done in the state house. I do have to be, I guess. Yeah, what needed to happen in the state house to make it, to bring it to the next level, right? And we had those discussions with all the important parties and we also developed a group of recommendations that our own office thought was important. During the early first few years of the term, we were able to work with the legislature and other partners in the building to bring on a new director of security for the state house. Didn't work in the executive office. And with that individual, we, it's hard for me to say we in this situation because at the state house, everything is, it's a big we. There's no one thing that our office controls at all. So when I say we, we worked with the other parties in the building to move the security agenda along. And certainly by the end of our second term, there were significant additions. There were additions to the security apparatus in the building and planning in the building shared by all of the partners. The planning and execution of which was shared by all the partners. I don't at all want to indicate that our office was responsible for making it happen. But we were party to it and I was the representative of our office in developing those changes in the state house. Some of them include simple things that are noticeable now like the new entryway at the Hooker entrance and the ballards that are out in front of the state house now that were installed. And some of them are less obvious. So that would be, that in itself is a extremely complex issue because of the players involved. But I think what's important in that topic from our staff's point of view, I guess the second talk to is that our staff in 2015 felt there could be more. You know, I think it's tough, right? Because you've got a building that has operated over eternity, right? And you've got people who've worked in the building for various amounts of time and then you have new people who come into the building who were used to working in other spaces like this. And they would expect the same sort of security planning. So I think we tried to make progress there and I think we did. The complexity for briefing and advancing the executive office, the easy way to describe that is I sort of mentioned it earlier is like once something goes on the schedule, once it goes on the schedule you're responsible for all the activity that happens from that point forward until it's over, right? And anything that needs to be prepared for between that point in time and when the event is over you're responsible for making sure it happens. Doesn't make sure you're, it doesn't mean you're responsible for doing it, right? It means that you're keeping an eye on all the parts and all the pieces and sometimes you're actually doing it right and you're sending the people ahead understanding the layout of the organization and the place that you're gonna be and where you come in and where you go out. But more of it is about coordinating with your partners in the executive branch to make sure the information is flowing into your office and getting in, they call it the book, right? Getting it into the book in time. So you might be communicating with the secretariat, right, and the agencies and asking for information and memos. You might be reaching out to a event or a host of organizations and building a scenario. You're also dealing, of course, with the travel arrangements and the travel profile and the security planning for that and everything else, right? But it needs to come together at that point in time, right? And then as soon as that one starts there's one right after it. And then there's another one right after that and that goes on. But that's, I don't know if I did a good enough job at explaining that. It's complex, but it's about systems. I would say, you know, what I would point to is we did have some situations early on where there were some fumbles, right? And it required us to have a sit down among the departments and our office was lead in that where we talked through the steps that we were definitely gonna take for every single event, starting with it, hitting the schedule, who was gonna contact our host? Who was gonna contact the agencies that needed to provide information? Who was gonna be in charge of briefings? It didn't change much, but at that point in time we sort of formalized everything so that everybody knew what was expected of their department and it worked pretty well from that point. It is a lot. It takes good people, committed people, right? And there's a lot behind it. Thank you. I would yield. Okay, so the chair now recognizes Commissioner Maynard. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. So, Dean, I'm gonna follow some of my fellow commissioners' questions. Yes. I believe that people are policy. Yeah, of course. And it was beat into my head. Right. Something that we also found out in the subcommittee was how dedicated you are to developing talent beyond yourself. And I'll just take a second to mention that Protégé of yours currently serves here at the Gaming Commission. Another Protégé of yours holds a job very similar to yours in the Healy Administration and there's several others throughout state government. Can you tell us a little bit about people are policy mentality and how you feel about developing talent, which you've done throughout your career? Yeah, yes, I can. I'm glad you, I'm happy that this came up because I think it's a talent and a quality of mind that may not necessarily be present in every manager. And for good or bad, that's just the way that it is. So my, I think mentorship is an extremely important part of being a good manager in an organization and it builds loyalty among the people who work for you. But I also feel that mentorship becomes more important as you get older, right? Because you realize that your professional legacy, you know, unless you, if you didn't cure cancer and you didn't build the new EV manufacturing company, your professional legacy is gonna end up being the people that you, the impact that you had on the people that you worked with, worked with and the people who were still working afterwards, right? And so it's important to me and frankly it's always been easy for me to make sure that I was focused on the people who worked for me and the people who I worked with, right? Because Commissioner Maynard, you would know that it's, for me it's not just about the five, six, seven people who worked directly for me, but the chair on the other side of my desk was always available for people who wanted to talk about what they were doing, what they wanted to do, what would be a good path to get there. Typically I had years of experience in the arena that they were in and I had advice as to here's what I think would be helpful for you. It's important to me, it's also second nature to me, so I've never found it difficult to do to find the time to talk to people and find out what makes them tick and what they wanna do next. And if you need to adjust their responsibilities, right? Oh well then we should get you involved in that, get you to do more of that here so that you can then use that to move forward. That's important to me, I have to say this would be a good place to tout, right? I'd have to say there are dozens of people who, dozens and dozens and dozens of people I've worked in and around government for close to 30 years now and there are people everywhere. I feel confident who would say yes, when I was there, when I worked with Dean, or when I worked for Dean, he took an interest in me and helped me learn how to move from where I was to where I wanted to be. When I worked for him, I had no idea what I was doing, right, and when I left I was an expert at what I was doing, I mean that's a natural, but you've seen that happen in multiple situations, right? So that, I mean that mentorship extremely important to me and it's something that I would want to bring to the organization because I enjoy doing it. Thank you, I yield. So I'm hearing a lot of successes but I'm not learning how they got done in this one sense so I'm going to be very direct with you. Are you a hands-on manager or are you a delegator? How do you get these successes? I'd like to know. Yeah, well yes, I'm a hands-on manager. So my management style, as I said, it's thoughtful and deliberate and when I have a task at hand, we'll determine either you and I, whether it's one person or a team, because most times with complex projects you're building a team, right? Putting a team together. We'll define early on what we think the end goal is and what are the right steps to take between here and there and we'll parcel out the responsibilities. And I don't think I would ever be accused of being a micromanager, absolutely not. And I think I would be, I could be, I'm hands-on in that I typically have a good idea of what needs to happen, even if I'm not doing it, right? So I'll be able to tell if we get off track. But what I would, what I prefer to do is to, obviously you have your, you know what you need to do, you need to do, you need to do, so we'll do it. We need to have good communication among the group, of course, so that we can keep track of the progress and if people are hitting hurdles, you know, so we can help resolve those situations. But as far as being hands-on, hands-off, I think you need to be on a sliding scale, right? Because sometimes you're working with an employee or a member of your staff who, they're completely committed to the project and they wanna do the work, but maybe they don't have the skills, right? Because they haven't done it before. That's okay, that's why we're here. So I'm gonna be with you every step of the way and I'm gonna make sure that you make the progress that's necessary so that we get to the end game because I'm really focused on the end game, right? Then you have other employees, sometimes they need to be refocused, right? They get distracted. They start at a task and they start the next step and something, they become bothered or sidetracked, right? And you say, no, no, no, that's not what we talked about. This is where you wanna be to get to that next step. And then sometimes you have a staff member who of course they're completely confident and capable of what they're doing and you say, okay, I'll meet you at the end when it's done, but you do have to have your check-ins to make sure the progress is being made. People I think like to work for me because they know they're gonna experience success. If they know they're gonna learn in their role, things that they probably didn't know before and they'll have some fun doing it. Okay, I have a couple of more questions, but I'm gonna yield to my friend down at the end, Commissioner Skinner, I know has a couple more questions as well, so the chair recognizes Commissioner Skinner. Thank you, chair. Excuse me. This is sort of a building off of chair Hill's question. It's clear you have an impressive resume. You've done a lot of great things on behalf of the Commonwealth. I just invite you to talk to us a little bit about how you approach your day-to-day responsibilities. You talked earlier about the chair opposite your desk is always open and available to anyone who wants to walk in. How do you invite that? What strategies? What's your approach? How do you invite loyalty from your team and colleagues? What are the things that says about yourself that says to someone, gee, I wanna share this personal experience that I had with Dean. Could you just give us a little bit of more of a sense of who you are and what you represent as really just a human being? Yes. I think in a new organization, first of all, right, because you come into an organization and you're new, regardless of your position, but in this role, it would be extremely important to go to the people and learn about that and say, I'm gonna go learn about Commissioner O'Brien and Commissioner Mayer and Commissioner Skinner. What is it that makes them tick? Why are they here? How did they end up here? That's one of my favorite things to do is to find out, how did you go from being a college graduate to sitting here as commissioner of the gaming commission? Cause I don't know, right? So then learning how did people end up working in this organization, right? And you're gonna learn about their families and their background and what they like to do, but you're gonna do that where they are, right? Cause you're gonna be out and among them. You're gonna share that same information about yourself because it's only makes sense, right? We're gonna be colleagues here. And I think the most important question to ask is, well, what do you want to do? What do you want to do next? What are you trying to gain here in this organization? What can the organization do for you? And you just say, well, when you want to talk about that, when you want to talk about that, let's get together. Come on in and we'll talk about it. We'll talk about what the right steps might be or what responsibilities we might want to add to your portfolio so that you can get there. It's putting work to be done, right? So I just need to know what work you want to do. I want to make sure the board knows that I do consider myself a manager of people, right? I come to an organization where I want to lead the people and have them have a successful and engaging and rewarding time at their activity at work, right? And I would plan to focus, I mean, there's a lot that needs to be focused on at the top, right? Because there's a lot of items that need, the progress needs to be made with all the ongoing line items that need to be managed, right? But there also needs to be that downward focus because the people, they work here, right? And so they're going to want to know that they're coming here for the right reasons and that the work that they're doing is being respected and valued. And so you're going to ask those questions. What is it, how did you get here? What do you want to do now that you're here? How can we help? And you have to be honest, you have to be earnest. So yeah, I'm here to help you with that. Does that help? Thank you. Any follow-up? No, not at this time. I do have other questions, but can I jump in or do you want to go down the line? The chair recognizes Commissioner Skinner. Thank you. Excuse me. Dean, what key points do you believe an executive director needs to assess before making any critical decision on behalf of the gaming commission? I think what you need to make sure you understand before making any critical decisions for the gaming commission, you want to make sure you have a good sense of what's the impact? What's the, you're making a decision so maybe there's one or two decisions that you could make, right? What would be the impact of the two different decisions? What are the unintended impacts? Have you tried to think through what might happen if you make that decision? You need to certainly connect with and poll the experts, people who have the background in the subject matter that you're dealing with to make sure you understand the consequences of the decision in either situation. You certainly need to deal with your legal department always, right? And I think you're dealing with other stakeholders, right? There's a lot of stakeholders for this organization. It's not just inside the laws of the organization, but how does this impact the operators, the properties, the facilities? What about the impact of communities, the mayors, the selectmen, the legislature, the vendors? So I think you need to make sure that you've thought through how the decision is gonna impact them, but also, what's the guiding principle of the organization, right? Fair and transparent regulation of the gaming industry, forceful regulation. So you can't lose sight of that for an operator or for a stakeholder group or a community group because that's sort of the constant to the organization. It becomes the foundation of what the organization is enforcing. But when you have a decision to make, you need to check with all of those places before you make a decision. I'm not, at all, I like the opportunity to make decisions. I've always been very confident in my ability to say, well, all right, it's my decision to make and here I'm gonna make it. But I would always, I'm always one to do that after a fair amount of research. Thank you. Chair recognizes commissioner O'Brien. Sure. One of the things that the executive director, you sort of referenced this, right? There's a managing up to this body and then there's the managing, you sort of looking down and making sure that you're managing staff and value and there are times, given that structure, that there will be tension between maybe what staff wants to do, either process-wise or subject-matter-wise, timing-wise and what the commissioners are asking. And so how would you envision the executive director's role in moving the mission of the office forward if you've got that tension, either ongoing or on particular issues? Well, the first thing I would definitely endeavor to do is to be ahead of the curve on those issues so that there isn't tension based on timing, right? That would be an important priority. The second thing that I think needs, we all need to understand is you are the commissioners for the gaming commissioners, five of you, four of you today and you put into those spots for a purpose, for your background, for your knowledge, for your skills, abilities and in the end, it's the commission that becomes accountable to the actions of the commission, the game committee, right? So you need to be afforded all of the respect and preparatory actions to allow you to be confident in the decisions that you're making. So I don't see that as a complicated equation, right? It would be a management activity to make sure that we were getting the information together, providing the information, giving the options to the body that's making the decisions and accountable for the decisions. I don't think I've seen, I don't think I've seen, when they're asking questions about why was that decision made, why did the gaming commission make that decision or who said, it's always the commissioners that are answering that, right? So on the staff side, you have to understand that these five individuals are the people who the administration, the governor has put in charge of this issue, they're answering to it in public and it's our job to provide them with the information they need when they need it with the complexity or the analysis that's necessary. I do, obviously it takes a fair, a good amount of managing up and we've got the complexities here of the open meeting law, right? But that's what an executive director is for, is to plan that out and to have those conversations and to make sure that there's five of you too, right? Five is five, right? It's not three or two, right? You know, I checked with commissioner Maynard and here's what he thought, but unfortunately, that's not the situation here. So we have to have things lined up and have the questions answered so that when it comes decision time, you're confident that you've received the right information, honest information, there isn't information going one way and not the other. That's fundamental to me for this type of organization, right? You know, I've worked at Mass Development and I've worked at the Commision Center Authority, those are also quasi-its. It's a fundamental, fundamental for agencies run by a commission. It's similar, I mean, you've got that at the executive branch too, right? You've got a cabinet, a group of cabinet and you've got decision makers in the executive office and there's always tension between them as well. And in the end, sometimes, you know, there's one or two people making a decision and they take responsibility for that, but in this situation, the commissioners are primary. The executive director is the bridge. Obviously, there are probably times where the commissioners are not interested, right? That's okay too, right? Well then the executive director needs to get to the decision point because there isn't a prevailing opinion. So you have to be prepared to take on those decisions as well. That's okay, that's your prerogative. But when you have an opinion, which I would expect most of the time, that's what we need to, that's what we're here for, we're implementing. And I think I said in our interview, we're the implementing side of things. The commissioners, you are responsible for the consensus, right? We can't implement until the five of you say, well okay, you've given us the right information, we've analyzed it, we know what our choices are, here's our decision, that we can implement that. I can't do anything if there isn't a consensus. Well, maybe I can, but that's part of the role of the executive director, talking it through and making sure that everybody's being understood. Mr. Chair, I have one follow-up. As do I, but you go first. Need to sub-compromise, I'll make it quick. I enjoy the conversation itself. So what you just described very often has to happen in this setting, because the executive director is attending all the public meetings, and so that advice and counsel you just described would have to happen like this. And so I ask you, your comfort level in knowing that what you just described very often does have to happen in public in this setting. Completely comfortable, completely comfortable. I mean, it's that way for a reason, right? We could have big philosophical discussions about how where the public meeting laws came from and what's the benefit and cons of it. Probably goes all the way back to Watergate and before, right? But it is, and it's for a good reason, right? It's all about accountability. So it maybe makes things more difficult, but it's for a good reason. So I'm completely comfortable with that in operating in that scenario. And I would point out that, frankly, where I've worked and the roles that I've worked in, basically all of your activity is public, right? Any time you're anywhere, right? Both professionally and non-professionally, when you represent principles, they, you represent them all the time, right? So when you're in a meeting or you're at an event or you're servicing, you're working those principles, what you do and what you say is public. Whether or not the event itself is public, it doesn't matter, right? Because you've got other people in the room. Once there's three people in the room, you are principal and someone else. That meeting's public, right? What you say, what you do is public. And where we worked, that also carried through to your other activities, any other activities, your social media activities, your private activities, you represented the office and your opinions could be attributed to the office. And you have to be covered with that. I've been doing that for so long that it's second nature for me. First nature. Thank you. I'm gonna follow up because you're almost there answering the question. Okay, sorry. You're that close. I'm gonna go back and put on my selectman's hat instead of a mass gaming question hat for this to try and get you where I need an answer. And that would be that the Board of Selectman would make a decision after the staff has come forward with all the information that they could possibly give us and they in their mind are saying they can only vote this way. There's no way with the information we gave them, this is how they need to vote. Well, then we go and unanimously vote against what the staff thinks should happen. Well, now all of a sudden the staff is not happy that we took a vote. So now I'm putting back my MGC hat as an example. That we took a vote that they feel so strongly is wrong or maybe a department head feels that way. So then that department head talks to the staff. Now the staff is talking to their staff and all of a sudden there's a morale issue because we made a decision that the staff does not agree with. Now you as our executive director has to be a conduit to that issue. How do you address it? And I think that's the question that I need to have answered for this particular line of questioning. Love it, absolutely. The way to manage that situation. First of all, that vote likely happened because there was either an unintended consequence or a situation that hadn't been anticipated by the staff. How could that really happen just out of the blue? The wisdom of the commissioners frankly in that situation must have identified a reason for that vote. It wouldn't make any sense that a panel of experts would come up with a recommendation and the commission would go in a complete opposite direction unless there wasn't a reason that hadn't been thought through by the staff, right? So the first thing as executive director, because maybe I was on board with the vote as executive director. The first thing I only need to do is make sure I understood, what made you come to that conclusion? Oh, I hadn't thought about that. I need to learn about that a little bit. So the year is versed in the subject, in the new solution as you were in the old solution. Then you get the effect of people together and you explain, you make sure they understand, say, look, this was the issue. This was the decision. This is why they made the decision. And I respect that and I actually now understand it. And that's why we make decisions. There are two options, three or four. And you're not always, no one is always gonna agree. So you'd have to say to this group, these people, for this issue, that's the way we're gonna approach it as an organization, a body that is responsible for that was clear in what they wanted to do and that's what we're gonna do. And it'll play out, I guarantee it'll play out or leave it play out, be right or it'll play out or it'll be wrong. But it's for us to have respect for the body and the process. I mean, that's why there is a process. But make sure also that the people don't say, what you recommend is not wrong. It's just different. The way we're gonna move forward. And that's okay. Next time I want you to be at your best with your next set of recommendations. Okay. Did you have anything else to ask about this particular issue? I did not. Then at this point, the chair recognizes Commissioner Maynard. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I always think I have one more question and then questions arise as we talk. I have something else to ask. You know, and I will say too, level setting with anyone and letting them know that any decision that's made is made for a reason. And I appreciated hearing that. You discussed the open meeting law briefly. This body, I really enjoyed my colleagues. We all get along really well and we function. I appreciate you saying that earlier. We function well. In the public. Every now and then, maybe we have a disagreement among ourselves, right? On how something's presented or if something does come forward or not come forward. Not, you know, out of anger, but just out of a half instance on belief. An executive director also has to be kind of a bridge between us, right? Without violating the open meeting law. I do know that, you know, you did work with the convention center authority, other groups, but we're a full-time commission, right? Discuss how you'll handle that situation. I think that would end up being one of the more enjoyable parts of the job, right? Because we would have one-on-one relationships, right? But I'd also need to be communicating where I thought there needed to be a broader discussion between or among you. And for me, that would be part of the most, part of the most rewarding part of the position would be, so we start in three, six, nine months down the road. You guys are very confident in my abilities to manage the commissioners and the commission and make sure that you feel as though you've been treated, that things have been fair and that you've received the information that you need and communicated with. And that I hadn't biased or prejudged my actions on what I knew from other commissioners. Because I think we talked about this too in the first interview, is that the first time one commissioner learns or experiences that I've made a decision sort of proactively or quickly based on information from another commissioner, that's it, you're done with that commissioner. It can't happen. You need to have complete confidence that we're dealing with each other fairly. You need to have complete confidence that we're dealing with each other. Completely, and honestly, you and I need to have that relationship. You and I need to have that relationship. So for me, I have to protect that relationship. Otherwise, I'll be completely ineffective in playing a harder game, I guess. But that would be the best part of the job, right? To have working relationships with the five commissioners and having them be confident in what's happening at that side of the equation. My only follow-up is this. One of your references said you were the best operational person she had ever worked with. And that was a strong comment. I've always seen leadership as slightly different than operations management. Yeah, absolutely. Tell us a little bit about your leadership philosophy. My leadership philosophy is to make sure that the people involved understand that we are going to drive to success. And I'm gonna help with that, either through my own personal involvement or through guiding you through each of the steps that's necessary. Because I have a good, I typically have a very good map of where we are and where we need to go. And I probably do it myself, but I want you to do it, right? And I'm gonna bring you along. And at the end of that process, you know this, at the end of that process, people go, wow, I did it, right? That's leadership. Leadership is also being part of the organization in every way and sharing with the employees what makes you take and learning about what makes them take and saying, we're gonna experience tomorrow's work day together, right? And I think that particular recommender was always one to include full-blown staff, get-togethers and making sure people feel as though they were part of the team. So as a leader, I mean, that is the job, right? Because you've got all the doers. And so my leadership style is to inspire confidence that you're gonna be able to do, we or you, depends on what the situation is, whether it's just a single-person project or we're a group working together, we are gonna have success here. And I guarantee it, if you do what we play and in the end we're gonna get to success and you're gonna feel good about it and no questions, no question about it in my mind. That's it, Mr. Chairman. I recognize Commissioner Skinner. Thank you. I have a question that's similar to one that Commissioner Maynard asked. It focuses on staff. How do you handle conflict and challenge among staff? What techniques, strategies do you utilize in resolving? With any conflict among staff or between staff, it starts with at least two conversations, right? I've never had a situation where I haven't heard from one side, I'm different from what I hear from the other side, right? And frankly, one of my hallmarks, if you check with the people who you know that know me, is I'm always one to say, well, I heard what you said. I hear what you're telling me, but I need to go check else-wise from the other side before I understand the two. So now you have a good understanding of both sides of the issue and you need to maybe make a decision. Excuse me, Dean, I'm sorry. Yeah, no. Absolutely. Thank you. Once you've sort of passed judgment on this conflict, you could say, listen, you have to understand the perspective of where this other person is coming from. I think you have to understand that. And if you look at it from that perspective, here's why I think you will agree with what they're saying, but maybe you don't agree, that's okay. But I'm gonna make the decision that here's what we're gonna do because it's my responsibility. But that doesn't, again, that doesn't mean that you were wrong, it just means it's different. Conflicted in an organization means that people are passionate about what they're doing and that's okay. So you need to have that second conversation after the fact this is okay. So do you understand, this is what we decided to do, what you were proposing is not wrong, it's just different, but I want you to be here and be ready for the next issue. So two conversations at a minimum and then making sure people understand why you chose. Here's why I think this is the way we should do it. I have definitely been accused of not passing judgment quickly enough, if that makes sense. And that's part of Dean, right? Dean always says, well, wait a minute, wait a minute here, I want to hear from them. I yield. So I'm gonna recognize Commissioner O'Brien. So there are various aspects to this job that the ED would oversee and a huge part of what we do is the Investigations and Enforcement Bureau. And while that director answers up to the chair, there is a role for the ED in terms of managing that grouping. They may come to you for advice. Can you talk to us at all about your experience with any investigations work? Yeah, that's not where I come from, right? So I think where I would answer that question is it would be important for me to have an excellent working relationship with the IEB director, right? And I am a quick study, right? And I always have been. And I think the role there would be to make sure that you're listening to what's being said, what's being reported and looking for things that just don't quite make sense, right? Because then you need to ask and say, well, you know, either explain to me why that makes sense or what I'm hearing doesn't add up because I'm a practical person, right? And so what you're explaining should make sense to me, you know, almost in a vacuum. So if it doesn't, that's a sign for me, you know, maybe I need to ask around, you know, go to the legal counsel or go to outside counsel and say, what I'm seeing here doesn't quite jive with what I would expect. Now that either means I need to learn more, right? To understand it more. Or, oh yeah, there is a kernel here that needs to be smoothed out. Thank you. I'm confident that we'd have good working relationships and that I'd be able to understand as much as I needed to in time. Great, thank you. Rapid fire, yes or no, that's it. Just yes or no. You have experience in project management. Yes. You have experience in operations. Yes. You have experience in team development. Yes, absolutely. IT implementations. Yes. And something that we haven't brought up yet but I think it's very important that we ask it since we did earlier is budgeting. Absolutely. And if you can just elaborate, I know I suggest no, but elaborate a little bit on the budgeting just so that we feel comfortable that you do because it's a very big part of the job. Even though you work with our finance team, which is the best of the best, you're still the ED and need to understand it. Do you want to do the rest of the yes-no's? Or is that the last? We're done. No, I said five, so I'll end on that. No, budgeting was one of my primary responsibilities at the executive office, right? We had a relatively small budget but we spent a lot of money, right? So it was a $10 million budget and $7 million in payroll. But we affected lots of spending in other agencies, of course, right? But I have complete confidence that I would understand very quickly how the agency receives its funds and spends its funds and distributes its funds. If I remember correctly, I think it's a $50, $55 million budget, also a $7 million payroll, which is kind of interesting, right? It's the same size. It's a somewhat smaller organization. $55 million budget and $7 million payroll. I think there's 24 paths, the line items that contribute to the on the income side of your budget. And I think there's like eight or nine ways that the money leaves the agency. And I've looked at the roll-up of that and I understand the A and F budgeting process as well. So I think that I'm confident I'd be on top of quick understanding where the money comes from, where it goes, who's in, what are your internal controls for spending? For internal spending, what are the internal controls, and investigating that to my satisfaction would be key. So in the executive office, just to be clear, from day one to the last day, there wasn't a single expenditure made. I'm not saying you could do the same here, right? There wasn't a single expenditure made that didn't have my initials on the transaction. My last question, which is very important to me and I apologize to my fellow commissioners who have to hear me ask this question again. When I first got appointed here, this agency had a very, very good reputation. After I got appointed, I found out why it wasn't. It was because of the workers that we have here. They're the best of the best. And what I found the most interesting about them was the longevity of the time they had here, the stability of the agency itself, the continuity of the agency with the people who worked here. So very direct. Where do you see yourself in five years? I assume I'm still working for the Massachusetts Gaming Commission, if I'm so lucky to do so in five years. I say that because I feel it would take at least that long to become really fluent and really confident. I would like to go longer than that, right? I would point out that, first of all, one of my, I've always been someone to become part of an organization and to stay from beginning to end on maybe almost to a detriment, right? But most recently, I spent eight years in the executive office. I was one of four employees, only four employees who was there on day one and there on the last day. And that's the type of commitment I like to have to an organization. And of those four employees, I think I was the only one who physically stayed in the same spot the whole time. So I see myself being right at the Gaming Commission and I want to be. Okay. Thank you. So at this time, I'm gonna look to my fellow commissioners and ask are there any other questions that anybody has? There is? I do have. So Commissioner Skinner, please. Just I'm interested in your diversity, equity and inclusion work. Tell us a little bit about how you have implemented those principles through, just in your values and through implementing policies and practices at any agency or organization. Yep. Excellent question, right? Of course, and it's a big topic. We could talk a lot about it in a lot of different ways. What I feel is important to say right now is that DEI initiatives are paramount for any successful organization right now. It's paramount for any successful organization and any successful manager. And I say that because you're not really anymore a successful organization if you don't have that in your organization, in the fiber of the organization, right? You may be meeting your monthly goals or your sales targets or getting the checklist done, but you're not really successful any longer. And if you're gonna lead an organization, it's not really, it's not completely successful if you don't also have diversity programs and goals as part of your plan and hopefully some demonstrated successes, right? But really, I don't say that just because they need to be checkboxes on your business plan, right? I don't mean that. What I mean is that from my experience anyhow, you know, having that diversity, having diversity in your workforce is gonna bring obviously the additional problem solving and talents and skill sets and points of view to your organization, which is gonna make you a better organization overall and better able to solve problems. That's, I believe that with certainty, right? And more to the point, I think when you have diversity in your workplace, right? When you have diversity in your workplace, it builds community and culture and education and tolerance, right? And I really believe it builds that in the workplace and frankly, you know, I think it translates out of the workplace, right? And we need that now out of the workplace more than anything, right? If we can have more education and more tolerance and more culture appreciation. So you wanna build that into your organization. As far as examples of implementing, I mean, I did, obviously I was, you know, in 2015, Governor Baker elevated the Office of Access of Opportunity. I took it out, I think it was at HRD at the time and he brought it into the Executive Office and I had to work directly with that director the first director and each of the subsequent directors to make sure that they had the systems and the resources that they needed to perform their job. So I always worked closely with them. An example I would use, it's kind of a subset of the diversity issue, but it's so in my, in where I was, I wasn't making high level hiring decisions, right? And a lot of the other decisions were internal promotions, but one area when I was at the Executive Office that I had where I could work directly on that actually involved the deaf and hard of hearing, right? And so it's a subset of your diversity group and they, when we came into office in 2015, advocates for the deaf and hard of hearing came to me, to our office and they said, we don't think that you, a little careful, but we don't think that your office does a great job at providing access or providing information to our community. We'd like you to make some changes. So it became an operational issue for whatever reason was it a communications issue or an operational issue? For us, it turned into an operational issue. And so I did learn from them what were the requirements, what would be helpful to the community in order that they would receive the information that they needed and then the way that they needed. Larger this has to do with the use of sign language interpreters, but there's a few other things as well. So we incorporate that into our daily activities, right? And it took dealing with some of different stakeholders to allow that to happen, dealing with the media, dealing with the legislature a little bit. But we took those steps and I think we were fairly successful at it, right? Then the pandemic happens and boom, the requirement for the delivery of that information expanded greatly and it was evidenced across the country, across the world, it became an issue. That was okay because we were ready by that point in time we were doing a good job of it. But I would just, I'd say that what happened at the end, toward the end as the pandemic was winding down, I got an email from the woman who had originally came to me and sort of screwed me through it. And in the email was a report from the National Association for the Deaf, right? And the National Association of the Deaf had published a report ranking each of the states and each of the governors on their performance at providing access to that information during the pandemic. And Massachusetts was number five. So I was happy with that. It wasn't number one, but I feel like we did better than we would have otherwise, right? And there were actually two ties in the top five. So maybe we were in number three. But that's an example of something that I had the opportunity to work on directly and I did work on it directly. But this came up in our first interview as well. And I talked about, for DEI in the organization, it's also a lot about recruiting, right? But you need to get ahead of the recruiting, right? You don't wanna start your recruiting when the vacancy happens. So if you have an apparatus in your organization, we had in our organization that is constantly identifying candidates and knowing where they are so that when you can find them, okay, we have an opening now, let's build it. Let's build the internal capacity. I did say that in our meeting and Chief Muldrew actually said, yes, Dean, that's true. That's absolutely part of it. But he mentioned to me from his experience that another piece of the equation is about the culture of the organization, right? And he said, he worked at an organization where they brought in a number of diverse candidates and have them working in the organization. But the culture of the organization itself didn't support them and they ended up leaving, right? And so that didn't work. It wasn't just about recruiting them in a timely manner. So I didn't get a chance to ask him in the interview what's our culture like, but certainly that would be number one on my list with the Chief is to find out what's the culture like. It's a long answer, but it's an important question. It's also who you choose to identify yourself with over time and what organizations you're involved with. And I've worked for a number of leaders who were really, I think out in front of these issues at least in their atmosphere. I think it was Governor Weld and it's like ancient history, but in 1992 was the first to issue the governor's proclamation creating the governor's commission and gay and lesbian youth, right? That's now the current governor's commission and LBGQT plus. But he started it. I think that, you know, I don't bring that up because it has anything to do with something that I did, but these are people whose values I attached with and I think represents to some degree my own, hopefully my values as well. As a manager, I would make sure it's an important part of the organization. Thank you for that answer. I would just say if you've ever seen any of our meetings, DEI is a big issue for all of us. And even during the process for which our sports wagering operators came before us in the application itself, DEI is a very big part of the application. So it means a lot to us. And so you said it was a long answer. No, it was the answer that we needed to hear. It's a big topic and, you know, I think what I said at the beginning is the most, you cannot be successful now as a manager. I would like to be considered a successful manager. And I would like this organization to be considered a successful organization over time. And that's just not true if you don't have that as part of the fiber of the organization. You don't want to ask the question, do you? No, I wanna make sure that everybody has asked every question that they have. So I'm gonna throw the question out, but what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna ask you to think about this question when you're given an opportunity to make a statement at the end because I know you've been here for a long time. And I always would end in my prosecutorial career, right? Talking to witnesses and getting information. You know what we've asked you, you know, you have a good sense of what we're interested in looking for. And I don't want you to leave today feeling like I really wish I'd had the opportunity to let them know X about me. So I know that Chair Hill will give you the opportunity to make a statement at the end and I would just ask you to think of that when you have that opportunity. And I would say this to each commissioner, would you like to make a closing statement to Dean at this time? No, not for anything other than to thank you for your time today. I know we've kept you for quite a bit as Commissioner O'Brien said. And so it was a pleasure meeting you and we've had some contact as you're in your role as G-PAC Chair once really. Sure. But thank you for coming in today and thank you for your interest in this position. Yeah, very interested and appreciate it. Commissioner O'Brien? So I echo that. I want to thank you for your time. I know it's been a long day. I think yours, your public service, I thank you for that as well. And I thank you for going through the process. It's you new going in, you may end up here in this public viewing and it is difficult and I want to thank you as a citizen of the Commonwealth and as a commissioner here for going through the process. Thank you. I'll end with a little levity. I always do a little levity. Thank you. Which was I wrote down at one point you said, I checked in with Commissioner Maynard and that's how we're gonna go. Unfortunately, that's not the situation here. I agree with you. I wish that were the situation here. No, I respect that answer, which is paramount to me, which is we are a body. Commissioner O'Brien calls it the Hydra, the five-headed monster. And I thank you for coming into this setting, which is public and engaging in this conversation. Thank you for your years of service to the Commonwealth and I appreciate it, Dean. Thank you. And I'm just gonna echo what everybody always said. Thank you. This is a hard process. This is one of the most important things that we are going to be doing this year as picking our executive director. We take that, not lightly. So at this point, thank you and your service speaks for itself. So I do wanna thank you for your years of service in state government, but I do wanna offer you an opportunity to make a closing statement at this time. Sure. Thank you. I do thank the committee. I think you have proven to be a thoughtful body as well. So you need to be thanked for that and the board probably isn't always the first group that people remember to thank at the end of the work day, but we know that your focus is on the best activities for the commission. Yeah, no, I just wanna make sure that you guys know, I wanna make sure the commissioners know that executive director at the Massachusetts Game Commission is a role that I would very much like to do and is exciting to me and I would relish the opportunity. I'm confident that I would be able to demonstrate success in that role and that you would be proud of that decision in a period of time. And that I would be able to bring real leadership to the organization, right? That would be my call for a certain period of time for everybody to be very happy with the decision they had made. From my perspective, when I look at the organization right now, there's nine departments and there's nine department heads, right? And there's nine sets of employees in those departments. And I would venture to say each of those nine department heads are likely expert in their own area, right? And I do think I wanna make sure that you understand that I'm very experienced in many of those areas, right? But if there was a vacancy at the top of any one of those nine departments, I don't think I would be a good candidate to replace any of them, right? Say for maybe one or two, maybe I probably could, right? But if you're looking to bring in here a manager, bring in here a leader who can be the mesh that brings those departments together, right? And who understands operationally what those different departments do either because I've actually done it myself or I've been part of organizations that are highly functioning, that have those functions in them. And who can talk to those departments and those department heads sort of in their own vernacular. I'm very experienced in many of those, all of those areas. And that I think is a perfect description of what the executive director is supposed to do, right? You are the umbrella that brings the organization together. So whether it's your community affairs team or your communications people, obviously budget administration, legal, IT implementation, those are all areas that I've been involved in or I've run and I understand what needs to happen in those departments to get things done. I also understand how, and I think this is extremely important, how the actions of one department can affect the people who are working in the other either in a positive or negative way, right? They need to be able to work together. Here's how these two departments come together to push the project forward or how what's happening here is gonna negatively impact what's going on over here. And to care about that, right? You need to be the person, can't be a captured agent to any one of those departments either because you were there before or that's where you're familiar with the operation as executive director. You're above it all, right? And you're keeping an eye on the organization as all. So I feel that very strongly. I hope it's, I hope I've been able to communicate that using two big words. But in the end, you know, with my understanding of the position and the role, I think I would be, you know, an excellent addition to the team and I think I would be an excellent leader of the team and I hope I would get to do that. Well, thank you for that statement. So just to let you know, within a few minutes of you leaving, we will be having a discussion and actually a selection vote on our next executive director. And at that point, we would notify the candidate who we have chosen today and we then would go into an executive session and do our business there for all the other nitty gritty stuff that comes around with hiring somebody. So that's the process from this point on. Terrific. We thank you for coming. And at this point, thank you. Okay, thank you. Thank you. Appreciate it. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Okay, we are back. So I'm going to bring the commission back to order. And for those in the public. Oh. At the moment. Yes, where did they go? Positive. Yeah. The commission will be in a brief recess. Okay. Thank you. Okay, so now we're back and we have everybody we need here. So I will bring the commission back into order and for those at home and watching us in public, we are now at bullet point three where we are going, excuse me, four, where we're going to have a discussion and selection of the executive director. Again, for those who are just tuning in, we had two interviews today, one in the morning, one in the afternoon. And we are now, I think, ready to have that discussion, but I'd first like to recognize Commissioner O'Brien for a quick overview. Certainly. And just because I did forget to bring this up in the beginning with the introduction of our process, remind everyone that both candidates did go through the background check with state police. There was no concern with either candidate. So the ability to bring them on quickly once we make this decision. I just wanted everyone to be aware of that. I want to kick off the conversation by just saying, I think you can probably appreciate the reason we brought these two candidates in front of you at the end of the subcommittee process. I think they are both talented candidates who bring, you know, you've got a regulatory, you know, attorney with management experience and then you have an incredibly seasoned public servant with sort of unparalleled operations experience. And so this commission, we as a body of the four deliberating, it's a question of where do we want to go and in direction. I feel like we can't go wrong with either, but they bring different things to the table. So I wanted to lay that out as where I was coming from. And then because I've had the opportunity to sit with them more, I'm gonna, I'd love to pull back and hear what you two, Commissioner Schiner and Chair Hill have to say on it. Would you like to go first, Commissioner Schiner? I can, well, very tall task we have ahead of us. I'm, you know, I want to thank the subcommittee for advancing these two candidates, two different candidates, but like you, I can see both of them stepping into this role and carrying it out its functions seamlessly almost. Seamlessly, almost. I can appreciate Clinton's sort of latching on to an agency and rising through the ranks and just getting better and better and better at what, you know, the subject matter is and elevating himself, in part, to general counsel. I like that he has the law degree, you know, and he said it, it's not as though he would be providing legal advice on behalf of the commission, but I do think that the work and experience as an attorney lends itself very well to just being able to look at the big picture and he has the policy work and the regulatory work for the Office of Consumer Affairs and business regulation, is that right? I also liked that Clinton was very personable in my mind and I think he struck the perfect balance, you know, between personal side and the professional side and who he was as a person, this sort of that personal touch, that personal side, to me, he did really shine there with respect to Dean, unparalleled I think is the word that you used in terms of operations, experience, I completely agree with that. I think Commissioner Hill said, Hill said that his resume speaks for itself, 100% agree with that. He's done a lot and he's managed a lot of projects and he has been vested with the confidence of high level, the governor and so there's no doubt in my mind that he is a professional and he's the real deal and he knows exactly what he's doing. I worry though that he may come across as a little too focused to the extent that there is such a thing or what I got was that he's a fixer, he has the technical, very technical type of demeanor and representation and I wish that, so he's task oriented in a nutshell, that is my impression and I wish I had, and I gave him an opportunity I think a couple of times, I wish I had gotten more of a sense of who he was as a person, the more person, I wanted to see the more personable side of him and I don't know that I was able to draw that out of him and if I didn't ask the right questions or maybe it was just the pressure of this setting but I really was hoping that I could just draw out a little bit about who he was in a way that if we were at an after work function and I get it, you have to be sort of restrained in this environment but I wish I had gotten a sense to really know what kind of a person he might be in just the way he deals with colleagues and staff, et cetera. I'll stop there for now because I'd love to hear what my fellow commissioners are thinking in the way of a candidate here. Again, I want to repeat both excellent candidates and I could go either way but as I sit here I like the relatability of the first candidate. Commissioner Maynard. Happy to weigh in here. I think it's really a question of where do we want to go to frame it as Commissioner O'Brien did. I think that the regulatory and legal experience that Clinton brings is very commendable. I mean dealing with all those different boards from, he focused on a few but he said 36 at one time and that's everything from cosmetology to social work and thinking about what that takes to do that. With Dean, Dean's an operator. Dean is someone that's going to drive a project forward. When Dean walks into the room, my blood pressure noticeably drops in a good way, not a bad way. And I'm reminded that this is just a really good, we are in a good situation here which is that, and you never know until we get to the public interview what's going to happen. I knew what I thought was going to happen in the subcommittee but you don't know until you hit the interview chair. I have more resolved now that either one of these individuals can come in here and give the requisite respect to both the staff and team and to the commissioners which I think is extremely important right now. I really think about where we're going through the duration and the remainder of my term and what's important to me as one commissioner is having some sober leadership right in that position and I looked at both of them and thought sober leader, sober leader, right? So I'm really torn I could go either way. I'm not going to make, I actually am interested in hearing everybody first before I make any determination. I'd love to hear from you because I've... So, thank you. So thank you for bringing two very good candidates before us and it has given me moments of pause now because you read the resumes and to me one stands out but then when you have people become before you well now you have to pause because of the answers that they gave that aren't on a resume. You asked Commissioner Jordan and I know Commissioner O'Brien also has offered this that where do we want to go as an agency and I'm going to be frank with you and say I want a manager in that position. I want somebody who Commissioner Skinner you use the word fixer. I want a uniter. I want somebody who can take conflict either at our level or at the lower level who has actually experienced that type of conflict and has been able to work with everybody to come to some consensus. Clinton Dick, there's got to be room in our agency for him somewhere. He's great. I enjoyed listening to him. I just don't know if he had the managerial experience that I would like to see in that position. Could he work toward that? Absolutely. I'm not sure I'm willing to wait. I want to see somebody put in there who from day one can manage this agency for us. I know Clinton you asked Commissioner O'Brien about his budgeting and he was very frank with us that he didn't have any. But was going to jump right in and learn it within days of being hired. On the other side, Dean didn't have any IEB experience and he too was willing to jump in and learn but the difference is IEB and its structure I think doesn't need the experience as much as you do when it comes to budgeting. I think having the budgeting experience is more important than not having the IEB experience right now for me. Because again I'm looking for a manager of all not just specific. They kind of even each other out if you will but in terms of the budgeting that's a big piece of the ED's job to be frank. I hate doing this in public because you have to be critical. Again I wish this is something for Clinton in our organization because he would be a great addition to it. But for what I'm looking for in an executive director I think Dean has the experience that I would be looking for. And I probably shouldn't have said this during the hearing but yes his resume does speak for itself. I mean he has been put in some pretty hard positions of delivering and he's delivered. And I look at the core competencies that I asked about project management I asked about operations, the budgeting, the IT implementation. These are all our departments and he has experience in all of them and I just didn't think Clinton yet has the experience that I would be looking for. And again Clinton, I'm sorry I'm being critical because I really do like him and I really think he would be great here in our agency. But the fact of the matter is what I'm looking for I think I'm leaning toward Mr. Serper because of his experience and the fact they both answered the way I had hoped they would that they want to be here for a long time. I was concerned about that. I don't want this to be a stepping stone for anybody and I don't want it to be a step toward retirement and I was very happy to hear both say no I want to do this job and I want to be here for a long time and be part of this organization but the experience piece for me for what I want to see the agency is a manager. That's where I'm at. So I have been on the fence there was an aspect of Dean Serper's resume that you actually have to drill down and draw out because like I started off there's a humility to how he presents that experience that when you read it you really have to go back again and realize the subset of nature of what he was responsible for particularly during the pandemic having lived it live at this level in this agency what that took to do was pretty remarkable and your comment about your blood pressure changes and goes down in a good way there's a different energy level in both and it's a direction where do we want to go and what struck me most Commissioner Hill about your comment and I hate to say this to Clinton but there was your comment I don't want to wait but there's going to be a learning curve for either of these men that come in here because they are not intimately familiar with the agency or the industry they have some challenges there's going to be a obviously I sit in a different position for IEB than you do where I would prioritize that higher than budget but I see your point that the ED really has an integral part in the budget that IEB director position also answers up to the chair so there's support that comes from the commission there that doesn't necessarily inherently come from commission when you're talking about the budget the ability to get up and make a presentation Clinton obviously as a prosecutor has had more experience I think than Mr. Serpa in doing that but what I liked about his answer and I was trying to find it in my notes was that what his role was is when it's happening it's to make sure timing is not the source of the tension and that once we have elected to go to a spot it would be his job as ED to make sure everything is done to get us there in a way that is seamless and I believe Clinton could do the same thing but I do think the learning curve we would go through the learning curve and we will be getting a fifth commissioner and so to have someone who can come in at that level with what is probably a shorter learning curve at this point is what I think this agency needs but we've all said it and I will say it again if there is any way to get Clinton digging to this organization I would jump at that opportunity because he compliments Dean Serpa in many many ways and provides another avenue of interaction with staff and to your point about sort of the likability and all of that there is more of a sedate nature that's just his persona and bringing both of the men and the energy and the likability and the humor that was exhibited by Clinton I would love to get that in here but this is one of those times when I am really torn but the comment of we really shouldn't wait particularly with the changing of the fifth commissioner I am leaning toward Dean Serpa May I just respond to something you did say that I forgot to mention in my remarks is that Dean actually has some experience in this field as chairman of G-PAC he know everything that you need to know about responsible gaming his answers were phenomenal in that and other aspects of gaming that Clinton doesn't have and that was something that I wrote down in my notes is that he does have experience in this field although not a lot but more than Clinton does and otherwise I agree with your comments I think Commissioner Maynard I don't do you want to jump in? So if everyone is given kind of where they are you know I have to think about this not just in relation of these two candidates which by the way I think either one of them could do the job I think if I were talking to whoever becomes the ED I would say the other one you should look at the other one to bring them in somehow possible understanding that both are at a high level and probably beyond our reach financially and otherwise possibly but I think if you're an amateur employer either one of these people I mean you'd be lucky to have them but as a commissioner of this agency I understand why the chair recused herself but that means that we have four people here having heard everything that came before me if I were to lean one way it goes to a draw if I were to lean the other it settles this issue for the agency I will join the majority in forming a consensus to not deprive the agency of the leadership that's needed and perhaps have weeks or months longer where we are without an executive director for the commission so I would join the chair and Commissioner O'Brien if that is if I'm reading this situation correctly I think you are but just to give a little bit of an explanation I want to be clear I absolutely loved both candidates and so when you're in a situation like that you have to draw on the things that aren't on paper to get to a decision the way I did that and I carefully considered the responses to the questions I asked but some of the things that led me to consider more favorably as you mentioned is sense of humor I think that's important to when you're coming on board trying to establish relationships build a team you know garner loyalty I think that you have to be likeable and that's not to say that Dean isn't I think that it might be hard for staff to draw out that more personable side of him because I think he is really focused on the end result and that is okay but I do think that you can't be overly focused on the end result such that you are sacrificing you know some of the partnerships the real close relationships that are going to be necessary in order for him to be successful in this job and I want to ensure that the staff feels comfortable walking into his office and sitting in the chair across from his desk and so that's you know it's important to me I think it's important to staff anyone coming into a new environment trying to lead and trying to manage so that's where I am coming from here it is an absolute draw and that's what I looked towards to come to a determination but I understand the consensus I don't disagree that Dean would be just absolutely wonderful in the role and I do support bringing him on as executive director and I also support if there's any way possible if there is a role here in the very near future for Clinton I think it would only enhance the relationship and this agency as a whole if I could to bring him on Mr. Chair so Commissioner Skinner also to address the issues that you just raised which I absolutely agree with during the process too in talking about how he mentors people and how the quiet nature that he presents with belies how he has mentored people forward as he spent his you know almost three decades of government service it is more obvious in Clinton because he's extroverted and he's the funnier etcetera but I do want to say from the subcommittee interview and from this that it is not as overt in Gene Serpa it is there so I absolutely hear you right that we need the agency staff to be engaged and to want this person and to feel comfortable with this person we're all probably going to say five more times before we're done there's a way to get Clinton in here that's a home run but I feel like the slot we have open, the process we have open I was comforted by what I knew people that worked for him do get that and so I have faith that he would maybe not in a different way you had that instantaneous connection in a way that it was going to take longer with him but to the extent that that's the direction we're going in I would try to bring that up that it was something that came up in the vetting thank you for that I really appreciate you saying that and one of the advantages to serving on the subcommittee is to do the work that you did and you actually checked references and talked to people who know these candidates and so I think that's very helpful insight and just I appreciate that and may I Mr. Chairman I also you said something Commissioner Skinner that I think is important which is I want to talk to the team directly if they are listening or if they watch later I think the open mind towards change is really important and I think if you give you know either of these gentlemen if you would have given them the opportunity I think you're going to like what you see and how they work with you and so I do hear what you're saying about drawing that out from staff but I'm going to say the opposite which is we need to pull up a chair for whoever it is on the opposite side of our table and say welcome and we're glad you're here it's not we need to make as I say a lot more us and less them right we are one agency it should be us all of us together and so I hope that I think this is shaking out but I hope that Mr. Serpa has given that respect I know he'll earn it but I hope that that happens here at the agency well then I would ask at this time unless somebody else has any other comments to make does anyone want to present a motion at this time if everyone is ready for one I'm happy to do that Mr. Chair thank you Commissioner O'Brien I would move that this commission extend an offer for executive director at the gaming commission to Mr. Dean P. Serpa second there is a movement and there is a second so we'll do our roll call Commissioner O'Brien I Commissioner Skinner I Commissioner Maynard I and I vote I so it's four zero to offer the executive position of the mass gaming commission to Dean P. Serpa okay so that is bullet point number four of our agenda we now will move to the next steps which is bullet point number five which has to do with the terms of the offer for the executive director and as you know that would be done in an executive session in order for us to go into an executive session I must read the following the commission anticipates that it may meet an executive session in accordance with general law chapter 30a section 21a2 to conduct strategy session in preparation for negotiations with the selected executive director candidate pursuant to item four above the executive director being non-union personnel of the commission the public session of the commission meeting will not reconvene at the conclusion of the executive session do I have a motion Mr. Chair I move that the commission go into executive session on the matter and for the reasons just stated by the chair do I have a second second there being a move and a second commissioner O'Brien I commissioner Skinner I commissioner Jordan I Maynard I'm happy to be no more first name and I to say I so the commission now will move into an executive session and to let the public know we will not reconvene in public after the executive session so at this point I would say goodbye to those who have been listening and congratulations to both candidates and thank you to both candidates for coming forward and putting your application forward and at this point I would end this session and move into an executive session thank you chair and thank you for chairing thank you no because we're going into executive session no motion to all right so we're going to go upstairs