 Fовойäl i Practitioner Shallow. Welcome to the 17th meeting of the European external relations committee in 2015. I can now make the usual request that mobile phones switched off or on flight in the mobile network edit system. We are going straight in to agenda item I. high foot printed and wc Lord twfadwyd, Fawr i ddialling i ddoch �wnn, i ddigonio oes iawn oeddaeth. Efo thапon, sel cob handmade and wc consisting. Felly mae hynnyodd, dwi ddim yn ffriganigwn i'r ffordd oes dim yn ymddangos. Felly mae hwn i'r ddigon i'r dweud i'r eich ddarparau, ac mae'n oedd yn desgol i'r gyfanопeth i'r fel Slygu. Felly oedd, iawn, oherwydd i wneud, oedda chi'n gwrsau cyfnodig ymddangosio oherwydd i ffwrdd i'r dweud i Gwladysgwyll i gael y cyfnodig. Mae gennych i'r ddigon i gwsgafeth ar y Cyfnodig. Fy Beth gan hynny nes i gael ei ddymu i i'w dwy ychydig, I shared a conference on agriculture from this point of view, and the concerns are about difficulties concerning the dairy side and, or maybe positive sides on the dairy side, but more problems possibly with the suckler side. I wonder if you could possibly say Felly, mae'n gweld wedi gweld y Oedden sy'n ei gwybod ystod, ond rwy'n ydyw ni'n gweld, ond rwy'n gydnod o'r gwybod a ddawu eich cyfaint i chi'n bwrthio i'r gweld i chi ymdegwyd. Rwy'n gwybod i chi'n bwysig i chi'n broses maen nhw'n gwybod i chi'n bwysig i chi'n pwylo dangos. Dwi'n gweld i chi'n bwysig i chi'n bwysig i chi'n bwysig i chi. Iein a the rest o taith syddch? Rydyn nhw'n meddwl i chi, ac mae'n dweud ar hyn dydyn nhw'n golygu? Rydyn nhw'n meddwl i chi, ac mae'n dweud ar hyn dydyn nhw'n golygu ar hyn. Gweld i chi, mae'n meddwl aeth ei fath usiol ar hyn yn gael? Mae'n meddwl ar hyn mae'n ddweud ar hyn, rydyn nhw'n meddwl i chi, rydym ni'n gwneud i chi. Rydyn nhw'n meddwl i chi pan oedd annib y cyfnodd, a dyma'r hyffordd yn bwysig eich clarchu ar y cyfnodd. I know they haven't done a lot of the heavy lifting today, so again, well done there. In terms of the response, I have the most serious concerns about the issue that Jamie has raised. I think right now TTIP will, to my mind, pass or fail on the basis of the wider question of agriculture and our edible goods. I have serious concerns about the way that America uses it, so I'm going to call some therapeutic dosing of livestock with antibiotics. I think that is a serious danger. I don't believe we can accept that. I think that would be bad for us. I think there are so many aspects of that around the impact on what I'm going to term the bio, the human body's good bacteria, if I can say that. In terms of what's happening in the US right now, my colleague Jim Nippleson, who's a farmer from Northern Ireland and an MEP shares my concerns. He's of the view that this is not likely to make any serious progress at all until sometime later in 2017. So we're not going to be facing, I think, any imminent adjustments the US election will get in the way. But again, Jamie is right that the wider question of the quality of our goods and how they are recognised and enjoyed across the pond will be one of the important aspects. We have much to offer, and I believe that if we can get the rules and regulations right about the imports, we can make some progress. But if we can't, then I would have serious reservations about TTIP as a whole. Thank you. I would also like to ask the when he was in America, did he get any sort of inkling as to the timing of this and whether this could actually go through under the current presidency? No, it will not go through under the current presidency. We really are. I think there have now been 12 rounds of bilaterals between the US and the EU. The last one took place just in Miami the other month. Progress is slow, if I were being very frank. I don't think the Americans are any way happy with developments in the EU, and you can make of that what you will. So, I think we are many years away from a conclusion to this, and many, many rounds of negotiation away from satisfactorily convincing ourselves that all is well on both sides, I believe. If you look at the level of support in the EU, it's probably much higher than it is in the US. And you'll be aware that the US is much more focused present on the Pacific trade agreement, which has made far more significant progress and is truthfully more popular than TTIP is in the US itself. So no imminent progress, nothing under the current presidency, I think we are probably well three years away, two years certainly away from any sense of our conclusion of this if it is concluded at all. Thank you very much. Iain Hurston nodding away, and do you want to come in there? I think we would all share concerns about Scotland's good reputation in terms of food production and supply and the standards that we have partly due to the high standard of EU regulation for food safety and so on. Certainly in Scottish agriculture and food production we have our geography in our favour in terms of marketing our produce as good quality and we don't want to trade that away for anything in my view. However I think it's important to note what Iain Duncan said in his last few words there that nobody really knows for sure if or when TTIP will be finalised. It is not impossible that the whole thing could collapse as you will be well aware on this committee. There is a saying in EU decision making, nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. At the moment what that means is that there is nothing in TTIP, there are certain chapters which have been negotiated in the various rounds of talks in which progress has been made and as usual the start with the easy ones in these kind of negotiations. There are many, many areas that could lead to fairly serious difficulty in getting a final agreement, not least persuading 28 member state governments to support the outcome plus a majority in the European Parliament. We have had a preliminary initiative opinion on this which set down some views which were different from what was thought to be the general drift of things at the time. That was back in July following which the commission brought forward what they called a modified process to replace according to them. For example, ISDS, one of the other big controversies, is still not necessary in my view and it still will be one of the controversial areas. I do not think that we need to set up something separate between two parties which already have well developed legal and justice systems which could cope surely with anything arising from a trade agreement. There is a massive amount in there but, from Scotland's point of view, I would expect that all your MEPs would be uniting behind seeking assurances about the key things that are important to Scotland such as the one that was raised. I agree a lot what Ian has been saying and also my good friend Mr Ian Huckton as well. I think that TTIP is a corporate scam designed to favour big multinational corporates against the interests of smaller businesses. It is very dangerous. I think that the investor-state dispute. Things are very worrying indeed that government organisations in this country will be sued for in any way impeding some American corporations' desire to make a lot of money out of our, for example, health service and so on and so forth. Again, the agriculture situation is extremely important and again very frightening. Quite frankly, it indicates the reason why Great Britain should remove itself from the European Union. We should organise our own free trade agreement. We can do it with something that suits us better. Having had long-term arrangements in the United States, I am sure that we would come to a much better conclusion. If an ice can organise something, China can do something without having to be in this situation. The European Union is an impediment to us all. It is only interested in the use of 27 other states. One size fits all simply does not work. The only way that we can get out of this is to leave the European Union. I want to give Ms Daila a chance to come in as well. I would like to let everyone else speak and I would like you back in. Jamie, I can let you back in at that point. Thank you very much, Madam Convener. I think that we all have concerns about TTIP and as you have your meal bags, we have our meal bags too. I think that some of the red lines on public services, ensuring that if you want to take things back into public ownership, you can do that. This was mentioned before about the secret courts, how we do not want that. I think that we all have our concerns, but as Iain says that nothing is decided until it is decided and at the moment we have not got anything to look at that we can really debate and discuss. We can talk about some of the negotiating documents that are online, that is true. At the moment, I agree with Iain Duncan that this is a long way off from happening. As others have mentioned, there are presidential elections next year. David Coverham was suggesting that we are better outwith the EU. I would firmly disagree with that analysis. I think that it is better to be part of something. Even if there are things that we disagree with, it is better to be in, disagreeing and reforming than being outwith and having things imposed on you. Thank you, Madam Convener. Some questions on EU reform later. Jamie, do you want to come back on? Briefly. It was quite obvious from your evidence, Mr Coverham, that you and your party were against the TTIP altogether. Don't you think that it is estimated that it will be worth 10 billion to the UK? It also appears from financial figures that the European side will actually do better than the US side out of the deal. Don't you think that it's worth really looking hard at it before dismissing it as you do? Certainly not, because I think it's not just that at the entire European Union itself and the entire principle of it. We should be dictating our own TTIP treaty. We could come to a much better arrangement than the European Union ever could. Quite frankly, it would take a decade to get 0.5 per cent improvement in GDP out of it, and the gains are too small to be accurately measured. Quite honestly, I think that the whole thing is a mess. It's been negotiated in secret. Nobody knows what's going on. I think that the whole thing is wrong. I think that we are much better negotiating it from our own standpoint, and I'm sure that farmers and everybody else in this country equally agree that we'd rather negotiate our own trade treaty with the United States. We're perfectly capable of doing it, and I can't see any advantage to having it changed and chopped up and made to suit the Spanish or the French or the Germans or somebody else. We organise our own trade treaty and will do a lot better out of it. Also, the European Union is intrinsically socialist, so quite frankly, it's not in our best interests. We are a go-getting capitalist country. Let's go get him. Let's be capitalist. Why should we be shackled to the dying European Union, which is not a good trading organisation? It's falling to bits. It's something out of the 1950s. We really don't need it. We've got free trade worldwide now. Let's get on with that. We should do our own trade and organise our own trade treaty. I wonder if you could ask about your views on recent public opinion, polls on the matter of the UK and Scotland's membership of the European Union. As recently as yesterday, a poll showed that when you exclude—there don't know—74 per cent of the Scottish people favour remaining in the European Union. What are the parties' views on that? As Scottish representatives, do you think that if Scotland votes yes to stay in but across the UK, the vote to leave, should Scotland be pulled out of the European Union on the back of UK no votes? I think that the poll that we all saw yesterday of 65 per cent was very, very encouraging. However, as we know with polls, the only poll that counts will be when that referendum date is, and at the moment we don't know when that is, we know that the Prime Minister has now come forward with the four asks, and that will go to the December council. The sooner that we know a date of the referendum, the better for all of us. We have to wait, and any of us that are pro as remaining in the European Union have to work together to ensure that that happens. It's of great benefit to Scottish businesses, Scottish consumers, and I think that the uncertainty anything that would happen to our membership of the European Union at the moment, whether that's on agricultural policy and payments or on structural funds, and I know that this committee has been looking at those things. I think that we've got a big job ahead of us, but it's a campaign that I will be fighting very much on the different side from Mr Colburn of us, the benefits that we have of remaining part of the European Union. I dispute those figures in Tali. The other recent polls have pointed out the difference between Scotland and England in terms of views of the European Union. They are very much the same, slightly more in favour in Scotland than in England, but much the same. I've knocked on doors in both countries, and, quite frankly, the views are the same. People are slightly more in favour in Scotland, but not much. It's not in Scotland's interest to discuss it any further in terms of a break-up of the UK, quite frankly. We decided that. That's what we had the never-ending for, and that was decided once and for all, so we're in or out on the basis of the together. When we went into the European Union in the first place, the deal was that we went in together, so therefore the deal will be that we have to leave together. If there was any other way, what Scotland would have to do was reapply, and it would have to wait for probably five years and come in after Turkey, so I don't think that's even credible. I got that from Mr Eungus himself, and that was on television. It's not in Scotland's best interests to be different from England in this. We do more business with England than we do with anybody else, so would we want an international border at Gretna Green? I really don't think so. It's not in Scotland's business interests, and we should stop talking about this rubbish because it's harming Scottish business. I'm a businessman, and many are standing. I talk to businessmen all the time. Businessmen in Scotland do not want to leave England apart from England and be part of the European Union. That's a nonsense. I think that Willie Coffey was referring to an actual scientific opinion poll that was publicised yesterday, which did in fact produce the results that he indicated. At this stage I think that that is encouraging as someone who is from a party who is positive in terms of Scotland's opportunities through EU membership and indeed our actual benefits right now. I look forward to a positive campaign in the referendum whenever it comes, but it is, I think, at the same time, reasonable if we do have significant differences in opinion between the partner. Remember, we are equal partners and respected apparently in this UK union that if there are different views amongst the nations of currently making up the UK union, they should be respected. I don't think that it is reasonable for Scotland to be taken out of the European Union in our referendum if there is a significant difference and a vote in favour in Scotland. You yourself have documents in your agenda pack today, which itemise the many positives arising from EU membership. One of the negatives is often referred to as connected with fisheries, but even in that the EU market is very important for 75 per cent of Scotland's seafood exports by value according to your own research documents. There are massive practical benefits that I think we would do well to consider as we are working towards this referendum. Ian Duncan. My feeling right now is north and south of the border and frankly on this side of the channel, on the other side of the channel, people really do want serious reform and I'm very conscious that that's what we really need to be talking about today because I don't believe one single person we've got before you today believes the EU is doing it exactly right. We want to see it done better. We want to see it more efficient, more effective. We want to make sure that when we go around the door we're able to say to people it's a good thing if it works well. The challenge we've got now is how to deliver upon that reform. In terms of the direct points made by Mr Coffey, I don't see this happening. I see Scotland as a principal beneficiary of being in the EU but it works well but I've seen too many things. I think all of you around that table have seen many, many examples where the EU seems distant or remote or out of touch. When we do talk indeed about the T-TIP discussions and you look at the vote inside the European Parliament, there were actually only three blocks, three countries MEPs voted against the T-TIP provisions. The UK was one, France was another and Greece was another. Every single other one voted in support of it, even with the very issues which some of you have said, ISDS and so on are anathema and all wrong. Now I don't wish to give Mr Coffey too much credit here but the reality does indeed remain that our ability, even if every single MEP from the United Kingdom voted against T-TIP, our ability to be outside of it would be heavily restricted by our membership of the EU. Now you may make of that what you will. My argument is we need to push for serious reform of T-TIP but be under no illusions that when we talk about these things there's a great appetite across Eastern Europe certainly, Central Europe certainly and Southern Europe for T-TIP to go forward and I think the reality remains that although France and indeed Great Britain are against that, our ability to influence will be restricted by our membership of the EU. Now I like T-TIP, I think it will work, I think it will deliver for Scotland, I think it will make people, I think it will grow jobs, I think it will grow the economy. So I think to my mind that is one of the great potential achievements of the European Union. When I speak to people in the doorstep I say right now if we can increase trade, if we can make trade better, we can grow jobs. And frankly the EU I think has been too sporotic in its approach to this. We should be looking at trade agreements also with places like India. India is a single largest drinker of whiskey but doesn't drink scotch. We can't export there, the tariffs are 150%. Imagine if you could get a trade agreement that eliminated the tariffs. Imagine what that would mean for the glens of Scotland. You would suddenly see the stimulus springing up having to feed what would be a bountiful market. The EU should be focusing upon these aspects rather than as it often does intrinsic natal gating and I think that's part of the problem. It's harder to sell the EU when the EU itself is not always its best friend. To bring Rod Campbell in because he wants to expand on the t-tip question and I think if we do that now that's a very good time to do it and then I'll bring Willie back in after that. Sorry, Willie. Sorry about this panel but I just wanted to recap a little bit on t-tip and just to talk a little bit about the Trans-Pacific Partnership. I don't know whether the panel would agree that that could be considered as the big brother of t-tip. There seems to be increasingly political opposition to that in both the Senate and the House of Representatives and more particularly from a key presidential candidate Hillary Clinton who said that she is now opposed to it and would not support it if elected as president. Did the panel agree that if TPP fails there's no prospect of t-tip being agreed with the USA? That's my first point on t-tip. Ian, do you want to come in, Catherine? I think that if indeed that turns out to be the case, if the US having prioritised along with the other Pacific countries that partnership then subsequently didn't support it for any reason then I think it would put t-tip in a different light as far as the US side of the negotiations are concerned. I think that is right. But just briefly back to some of the points that Ian Duncan was making, I don't think in the broad debate about EU membership that anyone is saying that the EU is perfect or is not in need of reform. But in my view a lot of the problems that we have had as a member state and for the moment the UK as a member state have been caused by the attitude of UK Governments in how they operate within the European Union. It goes right back to the fact that a UK Government took us into the common fisheries policy which was a total disaster against the interests of the UK's and Scotland's fishing communities deliberately negotiating it away. I'll let you come back in, Ian Duncan, but it's really difficult to try and manage if people are shouting over each other. I'll be patient and I will let you back in, Ian Hodgin, if you can continue. Whereas, if you look at member states who have continuously acted positively within the framework of EU negotiation on behalf of their own interests, then by and large they have a different result and a different attitude and a different perception on the part of their people as to how useful EU membership has been to them. That comes right up to today. Instead of the current UK Government working within the frameworks that are available in order to reform or change things or to defend their own interests, they have to take this sort of grumpy standoffish attitude, change these four things in some strangely unspecified way or risk losing us. It's not exactly a skillful negotiating tactic if what you actually want is to achieve these changes and to generally improve how the European Union works, far better to work constructively from within as the other member states are doing. Ian Duncan, do you want to come back in then and they'll go to David Coburn and then Catherine? Yes, I do. I think that is a mistaken analysis, frankly. I think the UK does have a solid reputation and is very constructive. If you listen to much of the mood music just now, the greater concern in the EU is that the UK might leave and thereby change the balance that has taken place within the European Union. I am struck again of how constructive the Conservative part of the Conservative Government can be. Last week, for example, there was an attempt in the European Parliament to have an emergency debate on the steel question. Right now, Parliament in Scotland, this is a big issue. You've been pushing very strongly. I know people around that table have been pushing very strongly. The SNP, MEPs, one did not attend and one voted against the emergency debate. Frankly, if you're talking about constructive engagement here, that was a live issue, an important issue, an issue that I know, and Mr Steiner and Mr Coburn are passionate about. I know Mr Hubshin is passionate about and we were almost there to have a debate and it didn't happen. Sometimes you've got to be constructive both at home and abroad. Let's be honest about it. The European Union is totally unreformable. Mr Cameron has put forward some pathetic figleafs to try and cover his enormous embarrassment. Quite frankly, he's not getting any when he's not going to get any of it. One of the biggest problems, of course, is the free movement of Labour throughout the European Union. This is a disaster and we've seen what's been happening recently, which has made it even more of a live topic. As for fishing, I don't understand the SNP's claim to be our nationalist party for Scotland. Scotland has the best interests to get out of the European Union and get our fishing back. Let's get 200-mile limits back. Let's use our own seas, rebuild our fishing fleets and have canning factories and processing works for seafood. Seafood is a major industry in the world and the Spanish are making absolute mint out of it and we are not getting anything out of it. They are raiding our seas. How can the SNP claim to be a nationalist party when they are quite happy to give away our fishing to the Spanish? It seems insane to me. I believe that the Scottish National Party are not a nationalist party. They are an international socialist party. Can we just stick to the topic? I'm sitting to the topic, but they are purely interested in the European Union. They are a pro-Europe party. If you want to get out of the European Union, the only party vote for them, I'm afraid, in this election is the UK, because the Conservatives, Ruth Davidson, says that she'll sign up to anything that Cameron brings back from Europe. It's unreformable. It's utter nonsense. You can't reform it. 27 other countries, and they've said quite frankly that they're not going to change anything. Madam Merkel has said the same thing. I think that it's very, very clear that my definition of nationalist is very different from yours, Mr Coburn. I think that it's a bit more complex than that. I think that there's politics at play in the states at the moment with the presidential election coming up. Perhaps one of Mr Sander's comments about being anti led to another candidate's comments about being anti-TTP. I think that there's a long way to go to draw parallels, but I think that it is interesting about the trade debate and where it's at. I think that we have to wait and see the T-tip debate is on-going. The negotiations, I think that the last round was in Miami in October. So we have to see how those negotiations and keep monitoring and looking at what is going on with those. As for the broader reform debate, we are going to be faced with a choice. There will be a referendum. We don't know when. Some people are speculating it may be April. People are speculating it might be June. We just don't know. But what we do know is there will be a referendum before the end of 2017, and people will have a choice. I think the choice of the British people is very clear that I think it's best to remain in and reform the European Union. I disagree completely with David Coburn's analysis that you can't reform things. I think that you can. We've seen that quite clearly in the better regulation agenda that's going on at the moment and what we're trying to do about the digital single market and what we're trying to do to make the single market more efficiently and effectively, which helps both businesses, consumers and individuals and also about jobs and growth. So there's so much there that we have to consider. I think that these are questions that we will have to debate and discuss, but it will be a choice and we have to, I think, those who want us to remain in as part of the European Union have to put those arguments across very vociferously. Can I just have a second question on TTIP? Then I'll shut up about TTIP. Can I just refer to an article that was in The Economist, that radical magazine last month, which described the deal's fuzzy nature makes credible economic forecasts hard. Opposition has been fiercest in Germany and Austria, two countries with strong social systems and low rates of unemployment. Lots to lose and not much to gain, critics would say. So now TTIP supporters are emphasising two related strategic arguments. First, TTIP will cement the alliance between the world's great democratic powers at an unstable time, some speak of an economic NATO. Second, establishing common or mutually recognised standards in the world's two largest consumer markets will oblige the rest of the word to follow suit even on such matters as labour and human rights. Comments. One of the debates we had in the internal market committee was on standards and there was a great, this is maybe two years ago, a great feeling that perhaps this could create a single market across the Atlantic, that we could create a single set of standards on all of this and there was a presentation given and then very quickly six months later we were given the presentation that there wasn't going to be as much co-operation standards at that moment and there was a kind of disappointment about that. But I think that the article you quote, obviously these negotiations, I can tell you what my red lines are which are about public services. I think many of us shared those concerns, although to be fair to the commission and the chief negotiator they say that public services are protected. But you can't tell anything until you see the final text. But as we've said there's a long way to go. I think that's an interesting economist article. I think the thing that maybe you should be looking at which we will be voting on is CETA and that's coming up, we again don't know the exact date but I would think that that would be something that the committee might want to reflect upon about what is on that and that we will be having a yes-no vote on that agreement. As for TTP, I'm not, I don't serve in the trade committee but I do think that these debates are important and we know from our constituent mailbox that people are very, very concerned about this and rightly so. One of the things that we realised very quickly about CETA is that Jamie McGregor, it's one he has, he furrows he's been plowing for a long time is about the named brands, the famous brands and that being sort of ignored in the CETA agreement so hopefully lessons would be learned on that. Any other comments on that question? I think that that's a speculative, if you like, article that does outline some of the potential big benefits of a sensible TTP but because we don't know what eventually is going to be in it we can't exactly say, you know, yeah, that's how it will be for all kinds of reasons and you know we, Catherine's revert to red lines and the vote that we had in July in the European Parliament that has been referred to a couple of times, it wasn't for or against TTP particularly although there were amendments sit down to suggesting that that the negotiations should be suspended and I voted for these on the grounds that it would be better to suspend them sort out how the process is going, make it more public and so on and then, and then resume. But red lines like protection of health services and particularly the public administration of these, we're told both by the UK government and by the commissioner responsible that there is no threat to the health service. Well, just write that in then and we will not have a problem, you know. So we really need to see what is in the text before we can say it's a good or a bad thing. In principle there are trading advantages that can be speculated about but on the other hand if the negotiations are carried out in such a secretive way and they've been gradually being dragged a little bit more into the open good then you can't help understanding that people will be suspicious about what's going on. Ian Duncan on the Economist article. A good impact I think is probably the best description of it. A couple of things that are worth flagging up and Catherine is exactly right. The series vote on CETA will be where we begin to see the plates shifting or not and it already has the ISDS clause within it. I think right now the work which the commission has done to reform that has been fairly substantial and I think that's important. Does it go far enough? No, I think it can go further. And I think that's where we in the European Parliament have been able to apply pressure but we have to recognise that we apply pressure in some of the oddest of ways. We are not a negotiator on this treaty. We are a final sanction when we vote for or against it. We have to really try and use whatever cloud we can to encourage the commission when appropriate to think again. And in terms of the issues around the protection of brands, the protection of quality produce from Scotland, I know the UK and Scottish government have been working hand in hand and have been speaking to both of them about this and that's important. But we've got to recognise that we're not diminishing or losing from what is going to take place. In terms of the votes on TTIP, that was, to me, a very frustrating occasion because the debate itself, in many respects, was informed by misinformation more than information. And certainly I'm sure that all of the MEPs and who know that many of the MSPs all have mail bags full of information and I have to spend quite a bit of time and you can go onto my website and find the response I sent out that went through, it was by the end about ten pages we had to go through to explain every single aspect of it, and I think that the issues were made. ISDS, I think, does need to be reformed, but I'm also aware that it is being reformed and I think that's a useful thing to see. In terms of the bigger question about the harmonisation, I make a simple point, which is right now that lifesaving drugs created in the US cannot be marketed here until they've gone through exactly the same procedures to test their safety in the European Union. Wouldn't it be great that the lifesaving drugs in the US can be used here the moment they pass there? And the same thing in reverse, the drugs that have been created in the EU that they can be used in the US, that should not be beyond the care of clever men and women, sure that we should be able to get to that stage. Perhaps this is an area where we can be pushing again. Why not? We are fully aware that the pharmaceuticals in the US are significant. Let's make sure that when there are breakthroughs that we all benefit in both sides of the Atlantic. That would seem sensible. Thank you. Mr Koban, have you got a response to the Economist article? Again, as I said, we don't know exactly what's in it, so it's all been done as a secret. That's a bit of a problem. Basically, I still go back to what I said before. Britain itself would make a better trade deal with the United States. They could ever get out of Europe. They're not very good at this sort of thing and it's biased towards France and Germany. It basically gives an unfair advantage to large corporations and TTIP is a lobbyist dream. So I just think we'd be better off doing it ourselves. David, have you actually gone to the room and read the documents that we now have access to? I know it's not the biggest start, but it is a start to be able to go and look at the documents before we were denied that. My colleagues have. My colleagues have. I would urge you to as an individual to go and look. It's so difficult to do. They make it so impossible. Can we come back to the point of our committee inquiry today? Willie Coffey, you want to pick up where you left off? Thank you. It seems so long ago when I asked the question. I asked the question, should Scotland vote yes to stay in and the UK votes no to come out? What's your respective party views? Mr Hudson and Mr Coburn made their views clear. I don't need a response from them to help the committee, but I wasn't so clear when Mrs Stuyler and Mr Duncan's responses should Scotland vote yes to stay in and the UK votes to come out. What should happen? I think that you predict different scenarios in all of this. I believe that we're part of the United Kingdom and we're making a decision as part of the UK on this issue to remain in. Before we can speculate whatever result will happen, I think that we have to join forces to ensure that we do remain in the European Union. We mentioned agriculture and structural funds, and research funding to Scottish universities as well. It's absolutely pivotal that we remain in. I think that what will happen here and what will happen in other parts, we have to work together to remain in the European Union. Does that mean that Scotland should leave if Scotland votes yes and the UK votes no? You're making an assumption. I'll give you a straight answer. We have to make sure when we see the poll that happens, that it will be on that day, but instead of speculating about what person will do and what person will not do, I think that we have to work together to ensure that we remain part of the European Union because it's in Scotland's best interest to do so. Yes, I'm very happy to answer that. Mr Cough is being a little bit devilish, I imagine. I think that we're all fully aware that this issue was very widely covered during the referendum. I'm under no illusion that I've spoken at many, many times. The Scottish constituency, the Scottish voters, are very aware of that. The one thing I think we can all rejoice in is that Scotland is a remarkably informed body politic. So in truth, the answer to that question is quite clearly in that referendum. But to make a separate point, if I may, it's very easy to say, if England votes to leave and Scotland votes to stay, why don't we change it around? What if Northern Ireland votes to leave and Scotland and England and Wales vote to stay? There are complexities here, no doubt, if you wish to make those sorts of points. But again, as Catherine says, we are the United Kingdom, and the one part of that which has been asked of whether they wish to remain part of the United Kingdom is Scotland, and the answer is yes, they do. And so that, I think, was well aired during that particular discussion. Very well aired indeed. Hanzala. Thank you very much. I have to say that Catherine and Ian Duncan have answered several of my questions already. So thank you very much for that. I just want to ask one question, but I also want to mention that we have business women as well in Scotland. I know he spends a lot of time in Brussels and there may not be as many business women there. You say business men. I can assure you we have... Wait, wait, wait. I'm just... So if you'll allow me to finish, please. I'll allow you to finish. And to say that, you know, not to say that there's pretty, there's business women, there's business women, there's business women in Scotland is very unreasonable, they're very successful. And I've welcomed that, that they are joining more and more businesses. I just wanted to make that point, but I also want to ask one point from the panel if I may, and that is that we in Scotland, particularly in rural areas, have a problem in terms of broadband facility that is not being made available. Will Tita help us in that avenue at all? Is that going to be in the frame? Is there any discussion taken part to see if we will benefit from that at all? Because I haven't seen anything yet. Who knows about digital? Catherine? So the whole... Well, obviously in Scotland we've got the 85 per cent commitment, and that is fantastic, but what about the other 15 per cent? I think that's the big challenge. I think in the digital single market strategy we saw clearly that everything's digital. The single market is the digital single market, and I know that in your report you talked about the new proposal that's about upgrading the single market as well, but everything is interlinked. So if we can get the digital single market to work effectively, you're looking like what is it, 250 billion worth of growth, you're looking at the fact that that's obviously preparing for not just the future, but the current industrial revolution, the third industrial revolution that we're experiencing in. So in the digital single market strategy obviously we've just approved the telecoms package, we're going to re-look at telecoms as well, which is where the broadband infrastructure is, to be fair, that's the whole issue about infrastructures debated in the industry committee rather than the internal market committee, but everything's interrelated. You're absolutely right about... I think that the digital single market falls into kind of three areas. It's about accessibility, it's about skills and it's about mindset, and on accessibility it's not just about the affordability, it's actually making sure that people have access to this. And there's some fantastic models in Scotland if you go to... I mean I would urge you to go to Shetland actually and look what they've done about Superfast broadband and Shetland, it's fantastic. And it isn't the fact that some people have access, they do, some people obviously still don't have access to Superfast, but the people that do, one of the biggest challenges is if someone is wanting to purchase online from, say, an artist somewhere in the north of Shetland, the problem isn't about purchasing online, it's about getting that product delivered safely to the individual wherever that is, so therefore there are other challenges which is something that we are looking at too. On the issue of skills, and this is something I think you are also concerned about as a Parliament, I mean one in ten schools in Scotland still don't have a computer science teacher, we need to look at digital skills seriously, I'm really pleased that Scottish Government put money into coder dojo programmes and trying to make sure coding is accessible and if any of you are interested, I think there's a coder dojo on it, Glasgow Science Centre this Saturday, I'm taking my son to it so I'm well aware of it, and I think that's a fantastic initiative. But on the mindset issue is about seeing things through that digital prism and we still have to ensure that our small businesses have all of those parts to that, whether it's accessing Superfast broadband or ensuring that the skills to be able to deliver on that digital world that we're all existing in. Ian Hadgerton. Just very briefly on broadband and t-tip, let's not wait for t-tip before we resolve the broadband problems because frankly I think we would do better to concentrate on resolving the broadband problems in which case it would be done long before a t-tip comes into effect I suspect. Ian Duncan, do you want to come back in on the digital question? If I may, again Mr Maragw, again I put your finger on one of the bigger issues I think affecting Scotland. I've just commissioned a report into what I'm taking that the single market to the edge is being authored by a gentleman who may be familiar to Donald McInnes from the chief executive of Scotland, Europa is to look at what are the barriers now to making sure that this 15% who are in the shadows are absolutely getting the full benefit from the single market because frankly you should be able to access the single market way from Stornoway as you can from downtown South Asia. Anybody in the EU needs to benefit from being in the EU, otherwise it's just not fair. So again there's European money out there and I know that Scottish Parliament is taking an active interest in getting that money into the areas to try and ensure that we are well connected. It was to my mind that I said as many times to colleagues in Brussels I would rather be sitting in Lerwick doing my job than sitting in Brussels doing my job and there's no reason why that can't be done because if you can get the IT to work frankly you want to be looking at beautiful landscapes not under concrete jungles. I think that more people would want to be in those parts of Scotland frankly than many of the other grey parts of Europe. Before you take yourself away to Stornoway I'm going to go to David Coburn, Mr Coburn. Well I'm someone who's set up an internet company which has been quite successful I'm very keen on internet going all this I agree with my friend Ian Huckton here that we should not be waiting for a t-tip for that to happen. It should have happened a long time ago and I regret the fact that we're not doing that when you see that the Chinese are going to put somebody on Mars we can't even get our broadband sorted out so I'm very keen on that. As for Mr Malik being a little mischievous about business men and business women what's also I'm concerned mankind, we don't discuss women mankind, mankind is a genius and a woman is a special sort of a man so as far as I'm concerned I was taught English at Glasgow High School and quite frankly I don't do political correctness but I have many women business friends well I'm sorry okay okay okay but may I just say that I have many business women who are friends of mine I met many times Michelle Mo one of Ian's new peers perfectly fabulous example of Scottish business person whatever you'd like to call it but I think all this pathetic childish sort of schoolboy nonsense is really being a bit buggy rise above yourself I think you made your views perfectly clear thank you Madam Chairman three related questions if I may firstly what are the prospects for the Prime Minister's proposals being successfully negotiated and is there a formal role for Scotland in those negotiations particular or the devolved administrations within the UK thirdly obviously we've seen major shocks to the EU and to European solidarity over the last few months with the refugee crisis from Syria and last weekend's Outrage in Paris which clearly has created a threat to security or there's certainly a widespread perception of a threat to security in this country and throughout Europe and what impact do you think this will have on fundamental principles of the European Union like freedom of movement for peoples and obviously the knock-on effect of that on the referendum the referendum in the UK can't be held in isolation from international affairs so I'm sorry that's three quite big questions but I think they're fairly fundamental as to where Europe is going to go and your first question is about the Prime Minister's negotiations I think we will go to the Prime Minister's man in the EU, that's Ian Duncan not in Stornoway yet It's only a matter of time if I answer this question wrongly I assure you I would say right now that they will be successful I think a lot of the assumption is that it will almost be done very publicly you must see it out there In fact Britain the UK government of all persuasions has been very successful it's an often not spoken about soft power it's ability to work behind the scenes it's been very successful so answer the first question yes I believe that will be successful should there be a formal role for Scotland yes, I believe there should be I think that the four asks which are now in written form are important not just to Scotland or to England or to Wales and they're important to everybody and so frankly there should be informal and informal component to that with the UK government over a number of these issues As to the question of the wider issues of security I know that I know that Mr Ingram is not implying this but it certainly came across that there was a linkage between the refugee crisis and the atrocities in Paris and I'm always very low to see that linkage made so strongly I think that the people who are fleeing from the terror in Syria are fleeing from those very selfish people I would say that very strongly and I'm sure you agree with that so I'm not trying to make anything out of that I think we are all on the same page when it comes to those who have been through the horrors that are unfolding in Syria and elsewhere I have concerned by the direction of travel within the EU just now mostly because of the unilateral actions of a number of member states which I think have undermined that solidarity so for example I think the behaviour of the German government has caused a number of tensions because they have made very clear policy statements and then changed those policy statements and in the by-going created significant problems for those member states lying between themselves and the Aegean Sea and the suspension of the Dublin Convention in all but I think it was an unfortunate statement to make particularly when shortly after they reinstated it encouraging so many people to come to Germany and then beginning to say but actually now we've reached that point where we want to not encourage people to come setting up the quota system to move people around Europe but discovering in fact that although we are talking about tens of thousands that should be moved less than 300 have been moved I think the EU have not been awashed with common sense or solidarity and I think that's a real shame because I think this is not this is a humanitarian issue and we are falling short and I think we should all be doing more to address these issues and again the UK government putting so much money into the area around Syria is doing good I think that is important I know that our party all stand in support of those who are free and terror and I know that we stand in solidarity with Paris and indeed with Beirut and so on for those who are experiencing that terror so close to home so I think right now the EU has to do better but again I think that the I don't think the challenge that people desire to do better I think it's our ability to understand how to make it better or try to drive it forward and I think that is a challenge I think the fact that there's not been a simple solution to our support isn't a simple solution I think Mr Ingram wasn't making a connection between the refugee crisis and some of the serious concerns we've seen over the weekend what I think he was suggesting and he'll agree with me or disagree with me if not is that both these things have had a serious knock on the EU's ability to do its job and whether that would then have an impact on a subsequent referendum in an out situation Is that right, Mr Ingram? Yes, I think you're absolutely right I didn't want to put words to take words out of Mr Ingram's mouth just to be clear I think the fact is that the events unfolding in Europe is now having an impact across not just the UK but across the whole of the EU and I think support for EU institutions is falling again not just here at home we're seeing trust in the European institutions and indeed in the member states leadership deteriorating I think that is due to the the seeming inability to get a solution that works and holds and I think conducting a referendum against that backdrop is not ideal that is very true if I were being frank and perhaps giving you more information I anticipated I think by now the UK government had thought that it would be around the UK's role with the EU and how reform can take place but I think we've witnessed over the last year both with the financial crises unfolding in the Greek situation and now indeed with the migration question that the top issue of the agenda often isn't that serious question of the UK's role there are many other serious tensions now that require serious solutions and the EU is just a bit the draggles it hasn't got enough capacity or time to solve all the problems and that will be a referendum campaign Mr Ingram does that answer well I'd like to hear that well I just wanted to just check Mr Coburn do you want to comment on that question? Certainly well start with the first question Mr Cameron well he's asked for nothing I mean I think it was Bernard Jenkins said oh it was Bernard Jenkins he was but one of his back benches senior one said is that it is that all you're wanting well he doesn't want very much Merkel's already told me he's not getting the thing Halon said the same thing what he's asked for nothing it's just all of the wisps of the nonsense so that's a joke he won't get any changes he's doing this to cover his embarrassment that's all and he's a Eurofile and he's leading a party of people who are anti-European union so he's got a problem he's trying to persuade them by all look we've made these changes nonsense he can't get anything to the Scottish involvement well I believe Scotland should put its tappensworth in the Parliament here people are wise people here should be saying what they want to say but of course I don't think they're going to get any better luck at changing the European way of doing things than Mr Cameron's going to have any difference doing it so I think this is more I believe more of a federal system in the United Kingdom and I believe that that's probably a question for Westminster to handle but of course I'm sure that Nicola Sturgeon won't be shy in sticking her tappensworth in will she so I'm sure she'll say what she thinks and thirdly on the problems of immigration it is a serious problem we've got people an exodus I think it's the best word to describe it people coming across Europe it's very sad it's appalling there are some refugees from Syria I'm sure but the vast majority of them I think are economic migrants I don't blame them if I were living in one of those awful countries I'd be getting my family together and coming over but the problem is it's not possible for us just to have unlimited numbers of people coming over we have housing shortage in Scotland we have unemployment in Scotland and in Great Britain as a whole we can't just have mass migration the Germans are already having problems this mad America made a very stupid remark which I think she's now regretting saying let's have everybody in it's nonsense I have been saying repeatedly in the European Parliament you can look at all the clips on YouTube I've been saying repeatedly that we should be setting up good camps on the Turkish-Syrian border and they should be properly run now the British Government's giving more money than any other government I'd like to see the European Union getting a bit more of its own money out I don't want to see the European Union doing it itself I'd rather the nation state do it individually because once the money ends up in the sticky fingers of the European Union it'll disappear into an oobleet and never be seen again so I'd rather see the money being given by the nation states to setting up good camps I'd also like to see the Kuwaitis and the Saudis getting their fingers out of the pockets and producing some money because they've got pots of it and they're not doing anything for their core religionists and I think that is a disgrace there's no reason we can't have good camps there and once the situation has been resolved in Syria, these people can go back home again but it seems that there's a I wonder if there's a tendency people want to try and cause more trouble by bringing more refugees in now we have security problems with this as well I think we're all aware of what can happen I talked to the First Minister about that when we had our European members of Parliament meeting with her in Brussels I said to her you are responsible for the people of Scotland in the same way that the Prime Minister is responsible for the security and if we must make sure that we keep good race relations in this country, we have good relations in Scotland because we are not we have a number of people that work and we have integrated them into the country and I think that if you just have mass immigration without integration that's where you have the problems actually you have the terrible problems in the Bon Lus de Paris like they have getters there which are quite terrifying and I've been to these places and I wouldn't like to go there night or even during the day some of them are utterly terrifying and Europe has a massive social problem because these people are being imported into Europe and they are not getting jobs if you have lots of young men running around with no jobs they're going to get into trouble and they feel they're rejected by society and they go and join things like jihad or whatever there's only so many people we can keep in the country we have to maintain our social security our hospitals we need to make sure that taxes are a reasonable rate and at the moment we've got a lot of soldiers who are not being housed now that's a disgrace that we should be handling so until we've solved the problem in Scotland of social housing and the problem of of unemployment and I don't see anybody around this table for that then I think that we're best not having mass immigration here we should be trying to get these people housed and preferably in the first country they come to it seems strange if I were a migrant I'd be happy to go to Turkey because I'm safe in Turkey I don't necessarily want to plough all the way across Europe or jump into a leaky boat to get somewhere else unless it's obviously to improve a lot of my family and I don't blame them but we've got to think of our own people too Catherine, do you want to commend your last question first tomorrow there's a meeting of justice ministers I think it's an emergency meeting there's five aspects on the agenda the first is about the temporary suspension of Schengen for 10, 20 days that can be done under terrorism measures the second issue is about the spread of weapons across the European Union the third is about the extension of passenger name records now that can be done with airlines tomorrow's agenda the agenda will talk about passenger name records for people travelling by rail so that's got implications for the Eurostar, the TGV the fourth aspect will be on intelligence sharing we saw that the Belgian authorities had some of those suspects and never shared the intelligence with the French authorities that's so tragic and we see that that really has to be much more on the agenda member states sharing intelligence and the fifth is about external borders and what we do so that's on the agenda tomorrow at the council and I think we should watch what happens there I was really touched actually walking into the Scottish Parliament today to see that book of condolences with both flags and in the Parliament on Tuesday we had a minute silence in the chamber where staff and MEPs gathered together we sang the Marseillais and we heard from the President of the Parliament we had a minute silence and we were moving lady playing as the solo violin with Ode to Joy it's just it's touched us all and I think that we don't know what will happen next but we do know that tomorrow these issues are being discussed Mr Hurston, Catherine I know that your time is very very tight are you okay for another few minutes because I'll bring in Mr Hurston and I've got a final question from Anne Mr Hurston Back to the questions in order Time to go in fully perhaps to such a wide range of deep and difficult topics but Mr Cameron's prospects have success well I wouldn't be surprised if he comes back in some months with a document that he claims to be a successful answer to the slightly vague set of demands that have been made up to now and that's not because of anything other than what I was referring to earlier that if a member state goes into a discussion with partner member states in a reasonably constructive fashion then usually there is a willingness to compromise and to meet the concerns of individual member states so that's the way it works did we have to do it this way and have a referendum on the alleged outcome of this I don't think so we could have made significant improvements over decades if we had had a more constructive attitude in the part of success of UK Government over decades should Scotland have a role I'm glad to hear Ian Duncan say that he thinks Scotland should have a formal role in this process it's a pity that Scotland and the other devolved Administrations weren't consulted about the terms of the so-called demands if that may change now that we know what they are then I would welcome that but up to now as far as I'm aware Scotland hasn't been formally involved by the UK or anyone else and I certainly would hope that given the particular interests that we have that that will change the catastrophic events in Paris over the weekend and the aftermath of that of course it's leading to a significant number of issues necessarily being discussed at European level between Governments and I think Catherine made a good point there that there is an inter-governmental role here because the EU doesn't actually have a unified police force it has sharing arrangements which it would seem have not been working as well as they might in recent times and it's certainly a wake up call that requires the member states to get together and look at how better to share intelligence on matters and to track the movements of people who come to the attention of intelligent services definitely will there be an impact on free movement well what the what the terrorists want is to disrupt the freedoms and the way of life that is in fact a part of being in the European Union and each of its member states and of course we have to take precautions to make sure that we don't have many more of these kind of attacks but I would hope that we don't end up with some kind of knee jerk reaction driven by people like Mr Coburn and his viewpoints that attack the fundamental freedoms that we enjoy while of course understanding completely that we need to back up these freedoms with security and intelligence and the kind of cover that perhaps may have broken down in the run up to the Paris attacks. Okay, thank you. I'm going to really really tight for time so I've got a final question from one of our committee members Ann McTaggart. It's just following on and good morning still, good morning panel. Following on from Adam Ingram's points there, it's about the relationship of our other member EU member states. How will the Prime Minister's negotiations affect other states in the European Union and will the only affect the UK's terms of membership? Mr Coburn, do you want to come in there? I'm not quite sure what you're driving at. Can you just be more specific? The negotiations that are happening just now, what's been requested, do they affect any other member state? If you want my opinion to affect the entire United Kingdom if we leave the European Union sorry, the entire European Union is going to be a lot of problems for the European Union because they won't have British money to squander so they will have problems to do some reformation. It's going to take some catastrophe like that before we can consider any sort of reform. I don't think it will affect other members particularly. Cameron is trying to so he claims get these changes made, but none of them are actually meaningful. One of them getting rid of ever closer union well that's just a load of words it doesn't mean anything, it's just blather. There's no serious reform he's trying to make except that he's saying that we don't want to be affected by the euro and all this lark. Quite frankly, if we vote to stay in the European Union we're going to get the euro anyway whether you like it or not that's a fact. The minute we vote yes to the European Union you're going to have all the euro files going bonkers and they'll be going gangbusters to get a whole lot of us into into the euro and anybody who believes otherwise is being disingenuous or daft one or the other quite frankly that's what's going to happen. Mr Duncan do you want to come in at this point? I'd probably note that I'm Mr Coburn fully is the expert on blather in one regard I think the big issue here is should this be exception of them? Should the UK be the principal beneficiary? Now we're pushing for it but we're not alone I think that's the first thing. If you look at the turn of events over the recent elections across the European Union a number of parties belonging to my own political group which has the word reform and its title have been successful so the recent election again in Poland was won by a member of the European Conservative reformist group you find the same situation now that our party in Finland is also in government the foreign secretary of Finland was speaking yesterday at a conference I was attending you see the same thing with the NVA in Belgium so again the word reform here isn't just about UK reform but it can be shouldn't be kind of exceptions and it's like that second thing is what then and how impact does it have but at the moment for example the eurozone versus the non eurozone question well we're not the only people not in the eurozone there are many other member states the Denmark has itself the same causes to remove it from that but a number of other member states haven't joined do they want to join must they join because present the way the treaties are drafted they must join the eurozone that's a commitment they make now the question is is it a commitment they should have to make do they need to make it and should the rules within the eurozone dictate the rules of the EU since they're not coterminist so that's that I think there are very clear distinctions there if you look toward the question of the ever closer union and it is indeed just a form of words but then that's what treaties are they are forms of words the problem with ever closer union is it's often invoked by the European courts as a determinant aspect of legislation and should it be no I don't think it needs to be I think what we've recognised is there are many benefits to the European Union but driving forward integration at all levels and harmonisation at all levels isn't required and that's why again around the table you're sitting at today I'm sure there are many of you so you would say that I think we should be doing something comparable to the rest of the EU or indeed a certain number of states but it need not be dictated by them if it runs counter to our own traditions our own sense of democracy or anything else so to my mind this can't be exceptional and even touching upon the more thorny issue of restrictions to benefits and so forth my view would be that the free movement of people is a core strength of the EU, I believe that I believe that people travelling here should be able to travel for work that doesn't cause me any issues and I would say that most of those who are in Scotland who are keeping many of our rural areas alive in some of the space because they are to be found now from top to bottom they're here to work so the benefit question is a separate benefit question I believe for them and I would like again to think that they are bringing vibrancy to those remote and rural areas because they're needed so to my mind right now this is not about being on the edge and different from everybody else it's actually about forming alliances with other member state governments and we're doing that with other groups in the parliament and we're doing that to try and find ways of making the European Union better and thus far I've heard but Mr Coburn who's got a very scalpel-like approach to this aspect everyone else believes that reform is needed this is an opportunity for that reform whether it be Mr Huston or Mr Stein we all believe that reform is needed whether indeed reform is happening again it is but a lot of it driven by Britain determining that actually the EU should do should do less but do that less better so if NDP is given an 80% reduction in the amount of law going to the European parliament that's a good sign we've now got a relief agenda and the laws fit for purpose should they be just simply churned out or should they be actually tailored to need and should dormant law simply be allowed to stay on the statute but it's causing trouble that's already beginning to happen as a result of the pressures from the UK so I do believe that the EU will benefit from this push for reform it's already benefiting from that push for reform I think Ian just made a point that I made several times that the EU is constantly evolving because it has too to meet circumstances and constructive engagement between member states and so on is happening all of the time there's been massive change in the time that I've been involved in MEP for example without having this kind of alleged crisis and need to reform our terms of membership I think was used in the question well this is not about terms of membership as such in the strict application of that term in my view because the terms of membership are set out in the treaties and there's no one is here thinking or asking even David Cameron is not asking for treaty reform of the terms of membership the EU can only do what the treaties specify and if the EU wanted to do something additional that is not already specified in the treaties it would have to change the treaties by unanimity which means that no member state can be forced to do something new by this alleged entity that is the EU that some people think takes over and does things on it well it does, it is true to add to add competences to the European Union's range thereof it is true so that is the position that we're in do the four demands affect other member states well they might to some extent depends exactly what the outcome is it's not exactly clear in either David Cameron's letter or in the four summarised aims exactly what it is he's looking for and I suspect that the outcome will be some sort of compromise that the other member states are prepared to sign up to but it might simply be the other member states signing up to say well you do that if you want Miss Stuyler you're going to get the final comments of the day because we're really running over our time very very short I think in answer to your question it will be determined by the negotiation so we have to see how that will go we know the four asks now we've seen the letter and we will obviously see the responses from the member states I would think to that letter and as we go forward we'll have the December council and then we'll see if the deal is done in the December council then we might be clear to knowing a date for the referendum so there's a lot to play for can I thank you very much I know we ran over our time this morning and you'll realise we could have explored lots and lots of areas can I thank you all for giving your time to the committee this morning can I thank you Ian for buzzing in from London it's good to have you we need to get you in front of committee again sir but we'll do that maybe the next time we're obviously working on all of these areas and we'll continue to work on them and we'll keep in close contact with you but on behalf of the committee this morning I can thank you all and wish you well in all of your endeavours in Europe in the coming months I'm going to go straight into agenda item 2 because we are now very tight for time agenda item 2 is our Brussels bulletin so I'm looking for any queries questions, points of clarity Rod convener, I'm obviously grateful to the bulletin for outlining one of the matters we've just been referring to which is the UK government's proposals for reform I wondered if a spice or someone could provide a bit more information on the question of the rules which apply across the European Union to migrants claiming benefits when they begin working it can enhance our understanding of the debate in relation to that Okay, thank you Is that something we could do too? Yep, definitely something we could do that comparator like a table of comparison Any information is better than none Thank you Anything else on the Brussels bulletin? Rod One other point I read with interest the comments in relation to the review of the birds and habitats directive it's my understanding that so far the UK government has been rather silent on it so I just we obviously could have asked Mr Duncan about that this morning we covered a lot of grounds but we'd be grateful for further information on the UK government's position on that if any is obtainable Okay, yep, yep Ann Really just to highlight it's not a question, it's just to highlight under the employment skills and education section there at Asmas Plus it's a wow from Scotland there were 151 successful applications which was super Just to highlight that I think the NUS did a lot of work when the Scott goes global campaign to get as many young people to sign up as possible because traditionally it was very very low but there's it's so good to step forward absolutely well noted indeed Anything else on the Brussels bulletin? Nope, well can we share the Brussels bulletin with the relevant committees maybe the specific committees on maybe the welfare reform committee on mods question the rural committee on the rural habitats and maybe education committee on the points that you make Yeah, can we do that? Okay, well if you're happy to do that then we can move on to agenda item 3 which we will take in at private so I now suspend committee to go into private Thank you