 Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE, covering Knowledge 16, brought to you by ServiceNow. Here are your hosts, Dave Vellante and Jeff Frick. We're back with Knowledge 16, everybody, this is theCUBE, we go out to the events, we extract the signal from the noise. It's our pleasure to have Dave right here, he's the Chief Strategy Officer at ServiceNow and a multi-time CUBE alum, great to see you again. Good to be back. So I'm coming off the keynote this morning, 11,000 plus people here. Yeah, amazing. Tweeted out, you're bigger than EMC World now, which is a pretty damn big show. Who knows what'll happen to that now. Congratulations, what's gonna happen when you're 25 billion, like those guys here? I mean, a bigger venue. I was joking with Mateus from Seaman, we're gonna have to have it in Hanover, Germany where they have Seaman, but anyway, congratulations, you'll love the keynote today, you seem to be having fun up there, give us the update. I mean, today we're all focused around what the experience could be like for you to work, because we've got this huge gap now between the way people experience stuff outside of work and the way people experience it in work. It's like a time warp, you kind of go back and the funny thing is when you start to work with people who are focused on design as well as programming, you get these new insights and new ways of looking at things and I remember I was speaking to one of the guys and he's looking at the product, he said, so when people customize it and install it, how do they learn to use it? And I said, well, you know, most people are going to training course for a couple of hours, we'll teach the users how to use it. And he was horrified, he said, well, you can write software so bad that you've got to train people how to use it. So yeah, it's what we've done for 25 years. But when people question something like that and go, well, why does it have to be that way? Then you start to think about things differently. You're like, yeah, why does it need to be like that? Why couldn't it be more engaging? Why don't we design it from the outside in rather than the inside out? It's like the whole, you imagine the whole Uber experience of IT, crazy Uber experience, phenomenal for the taxi drivers. Terrible for anyone who actually wants to book a taxi because we always focus on the power user, not like the hundreds of thousands of people who are going to use it every day. So it's about looking at things in a different way and today was about choice. So it was how you examine data, how you interrogate data and then how you want to consume it. What form factor you want to use to pull it through on. So the team that builds this and Fred's very focused on the whole design element now, they're a really, really interesting group to work with. It kind of gives you a new spark and gives you a bit more youth back in the way you look at things. Well, it's pretty amazing. I mean, when we first met Fred, we're like, wow, this guy's really different perspective. And but somehow you guys have been able to attract folks like yourself and others that are willing to break the mold. So culturally, how did that all come about and how is it evolving? Oh, well, so I think a lot of it's because as a company, we've never been a company that's been afraid to say, why do we do something that way? So there's always been an innovation core. There's always been like a core engineering team that have worked on things. And what's happened now is we've expanded that. We've started to bring people in who are mobile design experts, people who are UX UI experts, people who look at things because they're not hampered by all this knowledge from the past. We do a really cool thing every couple of months. We do a scratch programming course. So you can bring your kids in and the program is teaching them how to scratch program. And what they do is they use the visual test boards that you saw today. They set up these visual test boards and it's got all the things they need to build. And I was with one of the developers and there's a kid using the system and they drop someone onto a task. So this other boy on the other side of the room, he's gonna work on the task. And the girl goes, oh no, it's wrong. I need to take him off. And she went to take him off and she couldn't take him off. So the developer, it must have been like 28, 29, he said, yeah, we'll fix it on Monday. And I said, well, let's run it past the team. There's like 40 people working on this. And he went, no, no. So if a nine-year-old thinks it should work like that, that's the way it should work. And it's just that freshness of looking at things. But no one's, I don't think anyone in service now has ever been erased for a bad idea because even when you, because everything's sitting on the one platform, even if you develop something and we go, you know what, we're not gonna use it. We're not gonna launch that application. There's still gonna be elements of it that will be relevant in other parts of the system. So no idea is wasted. Everything gets reused to a degree. So there's a real recognition that there's gotta be a new way to work. You guys have done quite a bit of research on the state of work. What have you found? What have your findings shown you? So it was, it was, it was kind of weird. You always have a knowledge that the way things happen and work are different to the way they happen outside of work. But when you start to do the research, the gaps massive. I mean, we found that people were, we interviewed like 2,400 managers all across Europe Middle East, sorry, Europe Middle East Asia and America. And we found that there were more than five times likely to use emails to request something and work when they were outside of work. And they were five times less likely to use a mobile device. Now if you, if you used an application outside of work, you expect to be able to buy the app and it just works. It works on a mobile, it works on a tablet. But if you go to work and someone goes, hey, you log on to this portal, my generation doesn't automatically go and how do I get to it from a mobile device? But the new generation of people that are coming to work now, what's happening is this concept of the second screen is now becoming the first screen. People wanna do everything on a mobile device. Worst case scenario, I'm gonna have to log on to a browser. So that's reversed now. People used to see the mobile elements as luxury. Now people see the mobile elements as essential. Oh, worse, I gotta call somebody. I mean, we see this with our airline apps, right? The last thing you wanna do is call an airline. Can you find the phone number? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You see the kids. I mean, I was thinking Snapchat, right? Just the current hot social thing. And I got three kids. One was begging to get on Facebook. The second one, maybe third one, never go on Facebook. But she gets Snapchat, she operates it. So I'm like, I'll try. I don't even know where to begin. And there is no instruction. And they just kinda sort it out. So it's a very different, they're not afraid of breaking things. And on the mobile, I used to get on my son to send somebody an email for follow-up. And he, I did it, dad. What do you mean you did it? You're sitting there. I did it on my phone. I'd much prefer to do even an email on my phone than on a browser. So it's a very different kind of point of view and take to think so creatively. I think what'll be interesting now, and I'm kinda trying to experiment with my kids. So I've got two kids, 10 and six. Now, a 28-year-old won't use the same software that a 16-year-old will use. I'm waiting to see if the gap ever gets down to four years, where the youngest one's using an app and just criticizing the one that's four years older for using an app. Oh, it already is. No, there's four between mine. And she never touched Facebook. Right, just bypassed it. Yeah, just bypassed it completely. But it's a very different way. And as you said, this agile method too, just get it out. And if it doesn't work, well, it didn't work. And maybe if it doesn't work, we're not trying enough things fast enough if everything is working. What we tried to do is come up with a kind of service index. So we looked at all the features that you'd expect with a service. So can I request it from a mobile device? Do I get notification if something's happening? Can I track the progress? And we looked at all these different parameters and then race it experience for different types of applications. And we found that if someone was using a regular consumer application, the service rate index was typically 103% higher than if someone was using it inside of work. So it's just a huge gap between what the expectations are now. So productivity, right? Eric Bryn Jolson from MIT has been on theCUBE a number of times. Done a lot of work there. You're becoming sort of this well-known person to thinking about productivity. Talk a little bit about sort of that because Bryn Jolson's work sort of came out of the PC era way back when. And now this is a whole new ball game. It's a wave. So the reason I've got a personal passion about it is because it really annoys me, because it affects me. You know, we did these surveys and we found, yeah, 15 hours a week actually lost productivity with people trolling email. But the interesting fact was you did the breakdown and it was four hours a day. But it was three hours in work and one hour outside of work. So you're actually now getting so much information you can't do your job and it starts to ease into your personal life. And then I was on vacation. I think it was maybe it was two years ago and I put an hours of office on. Yeah, I'm out of the office. I'll be back in a week. I'll check my email. And someone sent me an email back and went, really? You're really out of the office? And I'm sitting reading the email, I go, no, no, you're right. I'm not. So now you've got this whole culture. You know, you get up in the morning, six o'clock, check email. Go to bed at midnight, check email. What was the thing that really used to annoy me? This was years ago when I used to work at Mercury Interactive. I stopped checking my email on a Sunday. Because what I used to do is I'd look at email on Sunday, there'd be some arguments of email and it would wreck off my weekend because I'd start replying to it. So I stopped even looking at it till Monday morning. But this is why people don't really take vacations. You know, a lot of companies will say, hey, you know, we don't track leave anymore. You can do whatever you want. And it's fine to say that because you're never offline. Because you're never confident enough to say to someone, hey, look, I'm going to be out for a week. Will you just, here's access to my inbox? No, you're not going to do that. It's insane, right, the way in which we use email. And you're actually afraid to send an email sometimes. You'll send an email with some kind of request. And you'll say, well, I better call the person to make sure they're acting on this. Or I'll text them or I'll send them a note on Slack. Or the worst one, because I've seen this happen to me, where someone sends me an email to do something. And I'll think, yeah, I'll get to that. And it scrolls off the screen. And you forget about it. And then four days later, miraculously, the email comes back. But now they copy Frank on it. And it's because there's no method of escalation. So the escalation is, hey, look, you haven't done this. So I'm just going to copy your boss to let him know that you're not doing this. And it's because there isn't a system that automatically escalates and reprioritizes. So people try and freak things. It's like the BCC concept. BCC is just the way of showing people that you're doing something. It's like, hey, I'm just going to BCC everyone and say, yeah, this is what I'm doing. But it was never designed to run business. There was no one. When email was first invented, no one was standing behind the guy right in it going, hey, Bob, make sure you build everything in that so you can run your entire business on it in 20 years. It just wasn't what it was built for. It was just a way to communicate. And it's become workflow. Yeah? And then people went the other way and said, hey, what we can do is we can just move away from email and go to collaboration. Cool. One inbox to 70 inboxes. Because you've still got, you know, you send your message. I wonder if anyone's going to do anything with that. And if they don't, what's going to happen? So actually having a system where you can go in at an enterprise level and request anything from any department and let them sort out the process and let them escalate it, you can see exactly what's happening. That's the way work was designed to be done. And you don't food this. This is how you operate it. Absolutely. Absolutely. You'll see screen show, and I don't know if there's show today, but you'll definitely see it in tomorrow in Dan's keynotes, where he shows the portal that we use internally in the company. And if I want anything from business cards to bringing a new employee on to getting a cover for my Mac, yeah, I can just go on and I can request it. And it's funny how it starts to expand. It's like I was looking last night at a room service menu, and you just look at something like that and you think, actually if I could just go through and select what I wanted, and then I got an indication of when it was going to arrive. Because if I knew what always happens to me, it must be the second they leave the kitchen. It's like, I'll just go to bathroom. I'll go to bathroom. If I knew when things were coming, if I had some idea of what delivery was going to happen, then it'd be a better experience for me. Well, there are so many examples of that in our lives, right? You call up to get your dishwasher fixed and they give you a three-hour window and you sit there and wait and wait and wait. So how does ServiceNow use email internally, externally? So you still get external emails coming in. People still send it. I know it's one of the, if you're speaking to Chris Betty at all, our CIO-wise here, that's one of his targets now, is to reduce email volume. And I think it's interesting that you, I've met a few CIOs where they'll say, yeah, one of the things we want to do this year is reduce email by 20%. And the only drive for it now, I think, is that people are getting so much email coming in. But there's an necessity to remove it just because there's too much to do. I remember my last company getting in a situation where if I got an email and I didn't know who it was from, it wasn't getting read. Just delete. If it's really important, they'll send it back. They'll come back again. But yeah, you know, and that's just not an efficient way to work to get to that level. But yeah, we use it for absolutely everything. We use it from our CRM system all the way through to provide an interface to our ERP systems. We use it to interface to Workday. We use that whole concept of one system of engagement to link all these different clouds together. Sorry, you're using an external CRM system or it's ServiceNow? We actually use ServiceNow as our CRM system. Well, that's interesting. Well, that's just the kind of... You're part of the second estate. That's kind of the whole history side, I suppose. When it was just a platform, you could build anything on it. It just happened to be the Fred New ITSM. That's what he built to demo what the platform could do. But if you worked at Siebel, perhaps you would have demoed it with CRM. Does anybody else use ServiceNow as a CRM? I doubt it. I haven't met anyone who does. Everyone's got a niche, everyone's got things that they're good at. I think you've got CRM on one side, you've got service management on the other, and there is like a kind of gray area in the middle. And that's what's happening now. It's more, to me, it's all about who the end user of the system is going to be as to whereabouts it's most appropriate to build it. But you... As I was going to say, just to follow up on the email thing. As the new kids come in, your kids, my kids, who did not use email as a vehicle for communication, these notifications, whatever social platform, how do you see that kind of impacting work in the way work gets done? Because the expected behavior of what I do is very different for those kids coming in. Yeah, I think you go through this whole generational gap of IT where we went all the way down, so we got to the digital natives, and then we've got the generation below, the entitlement generation. This whole concept of entitlement means that some people will arrive at work, and that'll be the first time they've really used email. Someone will say, hey, if you want to get something, what you do is you email this guy. And it's like, whoa, that's a bit formal. Last time I used email was to thank people for my graduation presence. So there'll just be an overall expectation that there's got to be a better way to do it than this. And I think this is why you see not their eyes as shadow IT from an infrastructure perspective, but you start to see different chat sessions appear. You start to see people using different products and different teams, and you start to get kind of departmental collaboration where a department just chooses its own tool. Now, the ability to be able to mix that unstructured messaging with the structured messaging is what kind of gives it a little bit more context than just having plain collaboration. But I think the impact will be people just do things in a different way. People will just come in and they'll say, actually, there's a better way. And maybe it'll be the new employees that are actually starting to educate the older employees on how to do it. Because I think the kind of level of cultural shift that you deal with now is something that I never expected I'd see. I was, we were interviewing a guy for a job. Guy really wanted the job. Young guy, 23, 24, so I really want the job. And I'd be happy to give you like two days a week. And I was like, sorry. He said, well, I give you two days a week, but I'm really interested in working for this company as well. So I'd like to work for them for three days a week. And complete blank face, you know? Yeah, are you okay with that? Not really. We're in, right? Not good. Yeah, so this whole level of expectation of how people are gonna work and how they're gonna interact. And the fact that people aren't necessarily gonna work at the same times a day. Sort of people start to shift terms. That's gonna just change the way that people work full stop. And the other thing, I think just the Google thing, just where the answer to any question is expected to be three keystrokes away, right? So you don't expect any kind of a friction to get information anymore. No, I mean, you guys probably remember the same as me. I remember if I didn't know something, I'd ask my mom and dad if they knew it. If they didn't, maybe there was an encyclopedia. If it wasn't in that, you're done. No one knows it. Now, anyone ask anything? Yep, there you go, there's the answer. It'll be interesting to see how that affects the developments of kids coming up. Because it must be a pretty cool thing to be able to get the answer to anything straight away. But there's so much knock on effects of how things change when you start to think like this. Yes. Well, and it drives a lot of the fundamental assumptions to your TAM as a chief strategy officer. Are you intimately involved in the TAM exercise? Are you sort of off doing other things now? Well, looking at the whole total addressable market of what you can do. Yeah, which is now 60 billion. I pegged it at 30 billion in 2014 for service now. It's up to 60 billion now as you sort of expand the vision and the capabilities of the platform. I mean, I think we've got, to be honest, I think the TAM is probably reasonably conservative. As we said then, you just find new use cases all the time. I was up with a partner upstairs on the 34th floor and he was showing me everything they were building to manage stadiums, everything they were building to manage meetings and conferences, a partner called Voltaio. Now, we stand on stage and we talk about Internet of Things and how we're gonna move into this and this is gonna change it. And then two hours later, you meet a partner who's like, yeah, the slides where you're talking about the future, here it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a watch. Yeah. You see, using the outdated watch, I've got the thumb. Internet of Dave. Excellent. All right, Dave, well, this is thanks very much for coming back to theCUBE. We'll give you the last word. Your experience at knowledge this year, you know, how it maybe differs from previous years? Well, previous years, I used to just get drunk but now I've got it all over. Yeah, I think for me, it's just the whole scale of things now is amazing and it's been great to see it grow to this level. So, I'm really enjoying myself. Busy day, but it's a good day. It's great, congratulations. Really appreciate you coming on. Thank you. All right, keep it right there, everybody. Jeff and I'll be back right after this short break. This is theCUBE. You're watching live from the Mandalay Bay Hotel in Vegas, right back. Service management is helping GE.