 I always like to start out asking when you were little. What did you want to be when you grow up? Oh my gosh, awesome And that's what you're asking me now. Yeah, um, I I wanted to be a bartender and a nun I'm from a small town and that's Two things go together. I'm from a small town small Catholic community and it just seemed like a perfect fit Okay, I guess none I guess nuns do drink a bit of alcohol at least Wine and it seems like there's counseling involved in both jobs So maybe there was some sort of inherent people caring quality in me always, but uh Yeah, I wanted to be a nun in a bartender and then uh, I wanted to be a lawyer because I think I was a very argumentative child and um Then I I think you know as I entered high school I kind of fell into the track that probably a lot of chiropractic students fall into You know, there's smart kids who are really good at science. So they end up going pre-med interesting I was not very good at science until The end of my my undergraduate. I think oh wow late bloomer No chemistry and organic chemistry were my nemesis I think I've mentioned a couple times on this podcast. I had retake that each course But then I I aced it by the end. I mean I was I was really good at it. So well, that's really interesting. So you it sounds like you like talking with people I do listening as well That's something I'm trying to get better at which is How did that how then did you transition from from wanting to be a Bartending nun, can I say that or a Annie Bartender that I don't know if there's a an order to this How'd you transition that from that to health care chiropractic? Well, so I was in undergrad in a pre really competitive pre-med program and I had this moment. I remember being at the library surrounded by all my classmates and You know, we are drinking our 20 ounce mountain dews and smoking cigarettes at every break and taking who knows what to study all night and it was hyper competitive and I just remember this moment of thinking this is the most unhealthy group of people I've ever been around and It was this revelation that this environment to train us to be compassionate health care providers Was beating the compassion out of all of us and I just I realized it wasn't for me. It wasn't I didn't want to continue on that path Especially if it was just going to become more competitive more cutthroat and more intense So I went back to my dorm room and thought, you know, what am I going to do now? And I was reflecting back on my own health care experiences and I'm as I said from a small town Where our local chiropractor Provides health care in a million different ways and is a really well respected member of our community So I was thinking, you know, maybe maybe chiropractic is a good way to go. There's a lot of autonomy You get to spend more time with individuals. I like talking and listening and it just felt like You know a chiropractor really got to Create those connections with their patients. So I was thinking that was appealing and then On a lark. I had my tarot cards read that evening and Um The tarot reader more entertaining you did not know what you were getting when you're Signed me up here But the tarot reader first thing they said was you you know, you've just made a huge Different decision and don't question it. Just go with it and I thought okay chiropractic school. Here I come Wow Everybody's got their own path, right? Okay, I'm gonna have to figure out how you go from tarot reading to to science and research But um, what led you to did you go to northwestern? It's where you did your chiropractic program. Yeah, I did I chose northwestern because they had such a strong research program here the curriculum is is You know heavily and deeply embedded um in evidence-based Concepts even before that was popularized in chiropractic. So it was a very good fit for me So is that something you were aware of in your undergraduate? You said science was kind of a strength of yours, but but this idea of I mean you go you go from strong science undergrad to Making decision-based on tarot reading a science-based program. I'm just trying to understand The nuances that that's very very interesting. Well life is a paradox But you know, I it's funny that you point that out, you know, I think that's part of what makes In all humility, I think that's part of what makes me good at what I do I mean research is my full-time gig But I think I can relate to people and that's what makes leveraging the research to inform healthcare policy An easy transition for me and I get that feedback a lot where people say you're a researcher and you know, it's I'll be going to take that as a compliment because I think the most successful people in our business are the ones who are You know excellent diagnosticians and um technicians, but also have the people skills, right? So it's it's right brain left brain and I think that that's a great recipe for success Especially in an emerging field like chiropractic. Yeah, I get that. I mean, I was drawn to chiropractic because of subluxation and Nate intelligence and my religious beliefs that aligned with it that's all changed as I've gone through this process, but that's kind of Uh, what's behind this idea of exploring chiropractic? So that's really interesting um, you did your program at at northwestern and What what got you into the research side of things? I think I I began really having a hunger To learn more, you know, I think that's just my personality and uh after Maybe I was in school for just a few trimesters. I was knocking on the door of our research department saying I will you know work for free I just want to kind of be immersed in this environment and learn learn more about this process and as I did Um, I really grew to love it because it it's satisfied You know, both the patient contact Time that I was desiring because we do clinical trials here primarily And so I got to work with a lot of patients and really see some of the toughest patients cases because people who are inclined to enter a research study have probably tried everything else So, you know, I feel like I became an excellent diagnostician. I had really great interactions I had the luxury of interfacing with patients in an environment where I didn't have to worry about billing and payment I could just spend the time I needed to spend in the context of this trial With these individuals. So it was really a I mean It's a little petri dish of a clinic really but it was almost a utopian clinical environment to be in So I loved that part. But then the other part of my job was this, you know, intellectually challenging Kind of nerdy academic piece where I could ask questions and Seek answers and constantly challenge and be challenged and that really resonated for me So a career in clinical research just felt like after I graduated the perfect fit and I was lucky enough That they created a position here for me at Northwestern to work in research and from there I had lots of other opportunities to increase my skillset relative to the conduct of clinical research and Be a a bigger value add to our research team here I think that speaks to a lot of people certainly I identify with a lot of that I mean the the intellectual side of it I you know, I don't know that I mentioned to my podcast audience yet But I have a newborn at home and and I find myself just wanting to have some free time to read Yeah, I do miss seeing patients as well, but for some reason that's kind of the the stronger urge And so yeah, I think that that urge to just always be learning more Is prevalent in a lot of students and so that's really interesting that research is Can be that pathway for them It it was my pathway and I don't mean to imply that somebody in full-time practice It doesn't also have that same You know need or quest and you know, I learned so much from clinicians And there are many excellent ones who stay on top of the literature as well as I do and I'm amazed because You know being involved in research is my job and their job is patient contact and yet they're on top of it So, you know, it just happened to be the right pathway for me at the time to kind of pursue both of those passions And it sounds like you went directly into research without doing Having clinical experience any full-time Positioned in a clinic. Is that right? That's right. Yeah, I've never I've never had my own practice And all of my patient experience has been in the context of clinical research studies I'm curious your thoughts on that because there's this this kind of idea You know that you'll hear that if you can't do teach Which I've never agreed with but there's a similar sentiment Especially within chiropractic that if you don't have clinical experience Number one, you can't teach but also if you do research then it's not as valid And I don't really understand that what are your thoughts? Well, I see two sides of the same coin and that whole argument which I've certainly heard myself many times You know one side of that is your research is a specialized skill set Just because you're a good clinician wouldn't make you a good researcher and vice versa. So there may be people who You know, maybe they're their skill set or their interest really does drive them towards research Research is a team sport and no study is going to be a good study if it lacks clinical relevance I mean, that's kind of from an evidence-in-form practice perspective You have to ask yourself, you know does This piece of research relate to my practice if not, you know move on because you've got a lot of things to do So when you do research, you really want to make sure that you have Both clinician and patient and other stakeholder input In your research question and your research design so that it is applicable So whether or not you as an individual researcher have that clinical expertise Whatever that might mean You know, you really need to work as a team with others to make sure that You're creating some knowledge that actually matters at the end of the day I know a lot of excellent research scientists who I would explicitly trust with I'm providing healthcare to me or my family. So I think that's a pretty unfair Blanket statement to make that just because you can't you know, if you can't do you teach That's total baloney. I've always felt it's quite the opposite. I feel like if you The teaching is such a specialized skill, but if you can't teach then you should just do it Yeah, you could cut both ways very easily and neither are probably true. I think the the truth behind that really is um, I think for a lot of clinicians research is a Kind of a mysterious unknown thing that's out there And it's easier to put it down and put it off then really try to engage it And I think that's what breeds comments like that. I understand that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean research from my perspective is a Objectivity had its finest. I mean the ideal of research is and it shouldn't matter what the skill set is If you're being objective then that can apply to To all areas. So yeah, certainly. Well, you're definitely um Um Have a lot of experience in the research field. I was just briefly looking through your research gate profile and some of the papers that have come out um A lot of research on on patient center outcomes But the the paper that really got my attention just came out in the the journal of the canadian chiropractic association on Millennials and this is so interesting. This is such a great concept and I believe you gave a presentation similar to this at nclc the big WFC and nclc conference last year I'd love to get into this and talk about this idea of millennials in chiropractic. Yeah, let's let's do it It's a fun topic and it's something that you know, if we're not thinking and talking about now Before we know what the generation behind them is going to be in front of us So we we need to to start thinking and talking about this To take us through this idea of generations because I've I hear these names all the time, but I guess until I read this paper I hadn't really understood How they kind of divide and so we go back to the beginning of Of the 20th century. So the early 1900s up until it sounds like about 1945 in this group We called the traditionalists The traditionalists sometimes they call them the greatest generation for the contribution and sacrifices they made with the world wars Sometimes they call them the silent generation because We generally think of older adults in our society as as being more silent participants You know growing up at an age where you're seen and not heard So they they have a few different few different names and you know that these these cutoffs these year cutoffs Depends really a lot of times on what source you're looking at but generally speaking You know people born in that first half of the 20th century are referred to as as traditionalists So that's my grandparents. They were pretty good example of that my grandfather was a In the world war was a conscientious objecter objector and was quaker as well. So he was that silent A generation in in many ways very interesting and that takes us into the next generation, which are the baby boomers I'm assuming this is kind of that group That is coming into retirement now. Yeah Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, they're coming into retirement now And really changing what retirement looks like. I mean, I think there was a kind of a socially accepted You know assumption like oh you retire and you just sort of Sail off into the sunset or you kind of hunker down at home and just take care of and love your grandkids But Yeah, right, you know get out your knitting needles, but baby boomers today are Really a different group. I mean they have wildly different expectations for For what healthy aging looks like they are not not only because they are living longer and have I think the luxury of really thinking about How am I going to keep myself healthy until i'm 80 or 85 or 90? Um, but just I think their life experience has shaped them in a way that they demand a lot more And so they are demanding functional mobility. They are demanding Health care that fits their needs instead of the other way around so they are really I think shaping up Gerontological care and it's almost funny to talk, you know words like geriatrics aren't even used anymore because This gen that generation You know, they're like, I'm not a geriatric person. I'm only 70. So, you know, it's changing just even how we talk about older adults Right and that brings us into generation x That was born between 1965 1980 What are their characteristics? um i'm a gen xer and There are a lot of individuals I I had mentioned in the paper, you know, this is the latchkey generation where For the first time in u.s history, they were often two working parents So this generation of kids were left a lot of times to their own devices and because of that Really became I think more focused on self Independence is the plus side of that Self-centeredness and disconnected from a greater society is the downside of that. So You know, it's the um flannel wearing Kind of doing my own thing Um stereotype Is this the hipsters? I live in portland for a while that Oh, well, portland's always stuck in the 90s. Isn't that what portland would tell us so It's incredibly accurate Yeah, so gen x You know, what's interesting about these these generations and of course they're sweeping generalizations of these different generations and and they're Oftentimes it's only in retrospect that they really codify what the definition of these generations are based on shared life experiences major world events what's happening with the economy those kinds of things and You know, I I still think there might be more to what what helps define gen x as time moves forward Okay, so that brings us into the millennial generation, which I would be a part of Those born between 81 and 2000 you call them the most educated generation to date And I think a lot of people associate technology as well. So that's what people talk about a lot What else makes the millennials unique? Globalization, you know Then the technology is really just this tool that amplifies how global a millennial society is compared to any generation before them You know when I was growing up Going somewhere big was was like the county next door and for Millennials today and then the generation behind them. I mean going somewhere big is pulling their phone out of their pocket it's it's It's amazing the difference. You know, I heard a a really great story on national public radio a little while ago and it was talking about the the 10 sounds millennials are likely to never hear And there were things like The exploding flash from an old camera or a typewriter or the sound of the rotary phone Dial up, you know stuff that isn't even all that old and it was humbling and shocking to think about just how fast technology and globalization are accelerating and How easy it is for me as a gen X or to already feel like I can't run my phone Like I feel like my grandparents who couldn't program their bcr. I mean that is me with the technology today so it's it's amazing because The millennials have access through technology to so much Information networks, you know, you name it And the downside of that is is that they have to keep up But you know, luckily the the technology I think is engineered in a way that makes sense to millennials That might not make sense to a gen X or certainly less so to a baby boomer and and to a traditionalist So it's it's interesting to see How sharp that curve is that technology curve is and how millennials respond to it And how they're being pushed by the generation behind them in those fields that acceleration is crazy and I I'm a millennial. Uh, you know, we have this idea of a digital native. I like to think of myself kind of a dual citizen Nature is a deep value for me. You know, I grew up with a rotary phone. I remember having the camera with a flash bulb Wow, okay, you know 12 flashes that you could use on it That was pretty fun. And you know computers came out and I I picked up the technology very quickly, but I find myself already not Getting snapchat. I just I don't get it. I'm on there, but I just don't get it And you know and all these new social networks that come out Um, that acceleration is is rapid And I think those of us at the beginning of the millennial generation are already feeling Like we're kind of getting pushed out And I think that's by design sometimes It very well could be Um, so you mentioned that this generation strives to connect with the why but that's something very important to them And sure enough on my podcast the most recommended book Is simon synex start with y and that's very popular In this generation. Why is that y is so important to us? I Great question. I mean, you know, you read simon synex work and you're like, well, yes, of course I mean the y is the is the core of everything But I think Millennials have had this opportunity to reflect on society to reflect on You know the political and economical situations and see so much Of what's wrong really stems from not having a commonly held commitment to a shared y and so I think that In their exuberance to You know save the world which is something every I think young generation moving through their 20s and 30s, you know it spouses this aspiration right to make a difference Which is great and probably is what keeps the human race going Um, I think the millennials have been wise enough and have had the the vantage point of seeing through their networks their global networks um That they should be asking why because the y's are different all over the world And in some places the y's are more crystallized and result in better systems And in other places you clearly see where the y is is is missing Maybe what societies needs are for example or otherwise, so I I don't know. It's sort of an I don't know a fluffy answer to your question, but I think it's just a reflection of That they there's they're sitting on this perch to see around the world Which y's are working and which y's aren't working whereas I think generations before only knew what was in their backyard And so the y just was more of a given versus a Well, what's your y and what's the y over here and thinking through the purpose More so than just the mechanics of this is the way things are right, I wonder I wonder if we're at a time now where we have the luxury Of caring about the y I mean you mentioned the traditionalists. They were all about kind of saving the world Because it was about everyone else is about the nation. It was about protecting from global war The gen Xers were all about themselves because now they they didn't have to worry about the war They they could then worry about themselves and now we're kind of to a point where I don't know Maybe you think of the mass loves hierarchy of needs where that's all taken care of We're we're safe. We're you know, we're we're wealthy. We're In a good place now we can start to think about the bigger picture That that's a that's a yeah, that's a fantastic observation and I I love that you use this word You know, we are privileged today It's a luxury to be able to think about the y I think you're absolutely right and that whole privilege Is used like a dirty word with millennials Yeah, privilege or even that that idea of entitlement These young whippersnappers kind of they're entitled to you know, so we're let's talk about chiropractic and how this relates New grads are coming out and and I think a lot of them are frustrated that They're not being paid well. It's hard to find a good position They're being taken advantage of as associates And the pushback I hear from that older generation is well, you're not entitled to a good position You're not you've got to put the work in um Is this is this You know, is this a characteristic of millennials that they're entitled and they want The best straight out of the gate Yes and no You know I And again, this is where the sweeping generalizations get us into trouble, right? I mean are there some who really feel entitled? Like they should be handed this because their helicopter parents have made everything easy for them always It's been handed to them all along You know, I'm sure that is the case sometimes but in my experience working with millennials That's not it at all. It feels like a a miscommunication, which is probably why I was excited to write this paper um, it seems like millennials and previous you know people from older individuals from other generations are just missing We're missing one another from a communication perspective. It's not a a sense of entitlement it's A lot of times I think a sense of fairness in millennials um And and and that place of privilege not quite understanding You know, why should I have to work my way up from, you know Making, you know this pittance to earn your trust to then have some kind of stature to then be making a livable livable salary right Whereas I I can imagine somebody from a previous generation saying that's what I had to do You know, I started working in a state where there was no There was no chiropractic license. I had to fight every day for this I you know, the school of hard knocks taught me how to be a good professional and I want that for you too So school of hard knocks here you come and that's still the generation that experienced If not directly the the the repercussions repercussions of the so-called medical war on chiropractic And that's what's so dangerous about how How we are thinking about this today being and I work at northwestern health sciences university still and I cringe every time I hear our students exposed to talk like You know, we have to fight for our stature Um, you know, like the the medical the medical community is our opponent or you know, we have to fight for market share and I I hear these this battle language this war like language and I understand where it comes from from previous generations you know instructors or um, you know, certainly mentors to a lot of students. I understand where that comes from But I don't I mean having had that lived experience I'm not sure that they can break free of it in a way that doesn't then Unnecessarily burden the next generation of chiropractors. I think that experience was real. I think for sure But I I don't know that it's uh that it applies now. You know, I don't it's not so real today I mean, sir, there are pockets Um, but instead of you know, chiropractors are quacks Which I have never once heard out of the mouth of someone in my career Unless it was a story someone was telling me about years past, which I've heard millions of those It's more like Explain this to me or how do I find a good chiropractor because you know, the evidence is there and You know, I'm a physician and I don't I don't I don't have the right tools in my toolbox You know, everybody's talking about chiropractors. How do I know who to refer to? I mean, that's the conversation I have with medical peers it isn't You know, where are your horns? right They're they're much more open. In fact, uh In the area I live here in South Dakota, um, there's ongoing talks. Let's build an integrative clinic Let's bring together acupuncture and chiropractic and massage with the medical Uh facility. Yeah So that globalization isn't just um You know political, but it's but it's interprofessional and I think this integrative approach Uh is just natural for the millennial generation. That's what they expect. That's Uh, it's nothing new to them. It's just the way it is and that's the huge opportunity for chiropractic I mean we and for some good reasons have a hard time escaping our past and that that battle mentality and the millennials present our profession with a really amazing opportunity to You know have a beginner's mind when it comes to how do we work interprofessionally? Um, and and they're they're they will be good at it because they are good communicators Um because of the way they do view diversity not as an assimilation process But as a process that really honors What makes each person distinct? And that's very different from the way generations in the past have looked at at it. So they are perfectly suited for integrative multidisciplinary type clinical settings So let's talk about the skills that they offer and we've mentioned technology a number of times We've got social media. They're comfortable getting online doing the snapchat posting videos How is this going to benefit chiropractic going forward? Well, I think chiropractic has been really slow to use social media and and Web based platforms in a really positive way. We are excellent at the mudslinging on social media um, but not so excellent when it comes to How do we create great patient education modules that can be widely available? Spread, you know using all of these different technologies Telemedicine is is certainly important, especially in rural areas. I'm sure in South Dakota There's a lot of talk about telemedicine You know, why aren't the chiropractors getting on this bandwagon? And it's not like we're remotely adjusting somebody. It's how do we do patient education Exercise interventions those those kinds of things to deal with self-efficacy and kinesiophobia and help empower people to manage their musculoskeletal health better I mean huge missed opportunity and we're just sort of sitting on the sidelines until We can probably complain that somebody else beat us to it So, you know, there's there's a million different ways that we can leverage technology Beyond having an electronic health record. I mean, I feel like chiropractic offices are like, oh, I've got an EHR I'm good I'm in the new millennium. I've got Right, well, even dictate and take our touch, right. So welcome to 2002 But you know, we we have to we have to both be thinking about 2018 and five years from now and anticipate those technology trends and what do we need to do? And that's where, you know, some of the patient registries getting chiropractic offices dialed into patient registries is a really exciting opportunity But we have to be more tech savvy when it comes to How patients are reviewing online health care providers, you know, we have relied as a profession on The incredible satisfaction that our patients have with chiropractic care, but we haven't been using online platforms to message that right now in the way we should because We have something really to trump it and we're not doing as good of a job as probably we should Some of your research I think is dealt with Patient reporting quality metrics and then also Adverse events and I think this is something that I've just haven't seen yet Which I've been waiting and waiting it because we're you know, there's always big talk about Retiba artery dissections and oh But it's not causation But we don't have the data to report these things and I think once we get that type of technology built Where every clinic can Put in adverse events and show You know, bring that data together. So this big data Um Is something that's really coming to the forefront Um, not just the EHRs, but these interactive systems where we can start seeing what are the trends Yeah, you start using that for research purposes, but also to help improve our clinical care You know, if you're seeing what your trends and trajectories are for your patients and how that is mapping compared to Similar patients and similar clinics, you know, how do we use that then to learn? Gosh, I kind of need to shore up this area What continuing edge should I take to help me be better in this space or dealing with that condition instead of You know, what's my local college hosting at their event this year and just taking those There's ways to tailor improving care practice practices in a way that that surpasses Probably what any healthcare profession is really doing today But you know, there's some incredible power in the numbers. That's interesting. So you can self assess You can see how you compare to the other doctors and clinics and either focus on what you need to improve Or maybe see what your strengths are and really target that to separate yourself right, I mean, it's it's a totally different spin on Um, kind of what third party payers are doing where they say these are your metrics These are how you're comparing against the other care practice in this network So now we're going to use this to put you in a different tier or to limit or those kinds of things Well, let's let's flip that on its head. Let's use the data Oftentimes the same type of data To help us as you say Identify what are our strengths? How do we leverage and maximize those? How do we shore up what our deficiencies are and not, you know, moan about it? But but fix it fix it and be better be better contributors. I mean, I think that Helps our individual practices Obviously can be helpful to improve the quality of patient care But also is a huge thing that could help us build more trust Among other types of health care disciplines in the broader health care system I love that you mentioned that this this generation is Very engaged globally You use this word in this article on micro volunteering. Can you describe that? Yeah, so, you know, I think oftentimes People think about Volunteering and getting involved Maybe with their professional associations or some kind of cause that they're interested in and and a lot of people shy away from that because They think it's going to require lots of hours lots of dollars You know time talent and treasure and it was it would be this burden on top of an already burdensome life Being busy, especially for a millennial who may be just starting their practice starting young families So this this notion of of micro volunteering has arisen and is really popular with millennials and that is It gives people small bite-sized ways to contribute You know the smallest version is liking something and passing it along on social media And that generates buzz that shapes Kind of a cultural perception of a group, you know, there are small ways that actually that could have a huge difference You know look at for anybody who follows politics Obama's campaign I mean so much of the success of his campaign was based on micro volunteering small donations social media Creating a cultural shift of consciousness um creating buzz These are I mean these were millions of people doing super small things that actually Completely, you know took somebody who was kind of an unknown just a few years before and brought them to the white house so there's a lot to be said about micro volunteering and it's interesting to think about How we can better engage millennials in in giving back to the profession in a way that makes sense for them because You know a 10-year trajectory to become a leader of your state association isn't realistic for most people and I think if if our More senior leaders in the profession were frank with themselves. It really wasn't convenient for them either Um oftentimes by the time you reach being the president of your association or something. You're already pretty burned out Um and and understandably so so we need to really kind of think differently about how to engage especially this next generation In volunteering and engaging in chiropractic in a way that meets them where they're at But can also be tremendously effective I've seen some interesting examples of this In my in my work with world spine care and world spine day Um a lot of the schools have you know, the students have gone out dressed up as vertebrae's and gone out to their City park and just to spread the word Uh, of course, and they post that to facebook and instagram and then they create a video mash-up I think it was the world congress of carabrack students created this mash-up of world spine day And so fun ways that don't take a lot of effort on an individual's part But it's it's this idea of crowdsourcing coming together kind of the Kickstarter generation I was just watching an interview with one of the co-founders and you know over the years They've raised two billion dollars in Kickstarter projects and there's no You know individuals that would be able to contribute that that money but just a dollar five dollars ten dollars here And it all comes together to create something Incredible, so I think that's uh That's an interesting outlook that we have that the chiropractors Students can contribute on an individual level Just by using their phones. Oh for sure and I you know anytime a student is like well, I'm anytime I hear I'm just a student. I'm like, all right. We're having a sit down because There's no such thing as just uh You know you you have a voice you have power and actually you can leverage your voice in ways that a a lot of your mentors Actually don't have that kind of platform So there are tremendous things that it you know even a chiropractic student Can do to really make a difference and You know chiropractic students are so fantastic in the way that they I mean they do have a network among other chiropractic students and they have these broader Social networks and community networks and you know just pull the lever on that kind of engagement. It's tremendous And that gives them the encouragement to then continue on and do bigger things Oftentimes to volunteer on a bigger scale as they as they go along. Yeah One of the uh kind of characteristics that is often attributed to to millennials is is idealism I'm I'm told this a lot that I'm an idealist Um and again that that usually comes with a negative connotation But is this a positive attribute? Oh my gosh, where would we be as a society if we didn't have young people At any point in history pushing with their idealist convictions Who would we be it would be I it would not be a good place for sure And we see that whether they were the traditionalist or the baby boomers or gen Xers There's always a push right a push from behind a push from who's coming up in the ranks And it's oftentimes they're it's their ideals that make them push and that push is what spurs people who are currently in power To either do and be better or move aside and that I think is the only way We have a culture that continues to innovate and change and aspire to be more I can't help but think of elan musk who's Definitely an idealist with the idea of building rockets by himself and then taking us to mars and And he's accomplished a lot. There's still a lot of people to think he's going to fail, but He doesn't care if he fails It's it's the process of doing those things. I think that's an interesting example Um and what is failure? I mean failure is the opportunity to learn and to do better I and that's another wonderful thing. I mean I with with idealistic Millennials, you know, there isn't that same kind of shaming with failure that I see Perhaps in my generation or generations before You know failure was a bad thing and I really think that we've got this generation of people who Don't see it like that and and maybe part of that is because You know, it's a short news cycle. You know your failure today forgotten tomorrow. No big deal And so I I really see a lot of millennials who Are willing to you know, put themselves out there and be vulnerable and that's all okay Which I think is just brilliant. Maybe that comes back to Their emphasis on the why as long as their why is right the what and how well you could you screw up that Well, you change it because you are convicted to your why Versus other other groups who maybe were fixated on the process Um or the gains the outcomes Um, that's where failure is a lot more high stakes because you don't have that room to learn and grow And I think that is really different with millennials I wonder if you can think of any any examples that you might have noticed where Chiropractic students or a group of young chiropractors have exhibited this idealism and and how that's turned out I don't know I'm putting it on the spot, but can you think of any any examples? I know you work with a lot of students a lot of young doctors Yeah, I mean idealism generally If they did they aren't getting it seems like they aren't getting bogged down or they're not bogged down yet by The interprofessional conflict instead. They have these ideals of what they feel like The chiropractic profession canon should be and they're aspiring to big things They don't see the same kind of limits and obstacles that I think somebody who's been in the trenches to use another war term Feels up against and so, you know, I I hear Millennials all the time, you know lobbying their legislators with these messages of You know show me why this doesn't work. Hmm. Show me why, you know, we're you know I'm hearing from you congressman that Um, you know, you recognize the value of chiropractic care and the potential cost savings so on and so forth You know, what is it that actually is the obstacle and you know asking for some real answers and it's this these beautiful moments of You know, it's not naivete. They get the broader political picture. I think it's really challenging Yeah, what is the norm and setting out these are what my expectations are as a constituent voter and I It's it's not bully like we would see I think in some other generations But it's really seeking to understand and that's maybe part of this generation being a lot of really good communicators Um, it seems like they want to participate in solutions more often than I'm going to come in and fix things They want to fix it with you. They want to explore it with you This notion of a fix probably is kind of a false sense of security that a lot of other generations have anyway, I don't think millennials are Are fixated on the fix because they're more interested in the why interesting A couple classmates and I guess friends that I've had have been involved in Kind of a subgroup of the aca and I think you're involved with this as well, which is called the millennial think tank um, I'm curious to hear your your thoughts on your experience with this and I interviewed brendan mccann who is one of the kind of the originators of it Maybe it's been two years now and I'm curious what the update is. What what are they involved with? What are their goals and how's it been going? Yeah, well, it's been brilliantly fun I'll just start out with saying that it started about two years ago Um, it seemed like we were having this perennial problem where we had amazing leaders in the student american chiropractic association Great thinkers, you know, clear leaders well connected fantastic ideas great energy and then they would graduate to become full aca members and not have a landing place within the organization because You know, it takes time to build more experience and leadership skills to then become a leader within the aca Um, and sometimes they were going to their state associations or looking for other opportunities But really wanted to stay Involved with the aca Who is an amazing organization? And so we came up with this idea to create the millennial think tank just as a landing place for early career practitioners who Wanted to continue to build their leadership skills explore ideas and have Maybe not have create more appropriately create opportunities to continue to make a difference Um in whatever way was accessible to them as they were starting their practices growing their families moving You know doing all that kind of stuff and so we birthed the millennial think tank which just started out as a monthly Whoever wanted to get on a conference call. We're just going to take on a Some topic in chiropractic and and discuss it and come up with some kind of actionable items that come from it and we have developed Really great project ideas that we're looking for funding for to increase chiropractic exposure within Underprivileged communities we are doing You know lots of big and small projects for the aca one of the the biggest projects That the millennial think tank has taken on is that The aca has recently undergone this whole rebranding process and a new governance restructuring and as part of that We wanted to update the aca's mission and vision statement and The president asked the millennial think tank to write it Which is I think an incredible signal of confidence and and really seeing the future in the value of this generation of chiropractors and That was that was a it's a heady project And they took it on brilliantly and came up with something that Was unanimously approved by our board and they it's our mission and vision and value statements today And I think it it resonates so well both with you know the the more experience generation of the aca but also the new aca members and the student aca members Because it really speaks towards this sort of broader view of patient centered evidence-based collaborative care I think it does resonate a bit more that younger generation and it feels more inclusive Um, it kind of as you mentioned These students were so involved with sac and then they graduate And then they become this little fish in a big pond of the aca Yeah, and there is that kind of 10 year incubation before they can actually do anything So I think the millennial millennial think tank is going to be a nice Landing platform as you call it to well help them get involved Well, yeah, and and you know help them get involved and you know that that seems a little paternalistic of me to say because They've done so much. I think it's more now Create a platform so they can better contribute and help us Because we need them as much as they need They are aca. I hate to make it an us or them thing and and actually in recognition of that Um, I we're looking at completely changing the structure To make it even more inclusive and to give it a little more prominence within the organization And that that was suggested from the aca's leadership. So, you know, it there's a clear understanding and appreciation of what what the next generation of chiropractic leaders has to contribute and If we don't engage them today, we're missing out on a huge opportunity Speaking of the next generation. We're in 2018. So those born Post millennial after the 2000s are now coming to the point where they're going to enter college Then enter chiropractic school. Uh, if they so choose, um, what what's the future hold? Great question, you know, they're they're already kind of debating names. Is it the the iGen? Um, I don't know what letter that's trademarked by apple No, which which could be they might be the I don't know what they'll be but You know again so much of um, what defines a generation is determined by Something that happens. So it's done retrospectively um You know, we could look at this generation and, um global terror 9 11 these are these are seminal events that have definitely shaped culture at a really formative time in their upbringing um You know, as we had mentioned earlier technology excel is accelerating in this crazy kind of way. So it's hard to know What they're going to be like. I think what we are going to see though is that these generational labels Are going to cover smaller and smaller windows of time And I think it'll be interesting to see um, how these labels change or don't change Um as we're labeling a global audience and not just a north american audience is probably What had been historically done with some of these labels? um So I think that'll be really fascinating. I don't I wonder how much artificial intelligence is going to shape this generation and and how they behave and perform. Maybe it's less about communicating with people and more about Communicating with technology in this web of things that we're finding ourselves in I don't know X machina You know, and that's and that's what we need this generation the millennial generation of chiropractors to help us all anticipate Yeah, you guide us through this next couple decades Right, I know and you know, I think the the most unfortunate thing would be if we As has traditionally happened and not just for chiropractic, but you know across the board Waiting for generations to gain enough leadership's experience gain enough Stature gain enough whatever until they're in the later part of their career to really Um take advantage of the strengths that they bring to the table that has been I think a mistake of how Um generations of the past have operated and it's not to fault them I think that's how things were done But we need to think toward Doing things differently and that means engaging the millennials now But also engaging the millennials to help us engage the generation behind them soon And it's happening in other areas. We've we've just seen politically the first millennial Head of state. I can't remember which country it was sweden or finland or something Something in europe where you know at 35 year old is now the president Yeah, really a lot of a lot of progressive governments Yeah, and it's interesting and I I think a lot about the You know at the time that we're doing this podcast the me too sexual harassment Conversation continues to evolve and and there's also a side conversation about backlash against that and I'm wondering as we see more younger heads of state leaders of corporations, I mean Mark Zuckerberg. Hello Will there be an ageism backlash or not and I really I hope not, but you know, it's kind of something else to be thinking of and to be cognizant of especially as You know, we like to think about you know, these people pushing on the heels of of current leaders Millennials also have to think about how they make space to retain that Cultural and historical wisdom and experience of the people who paved the road for them You know, it's standing on the shoulders of giants and it doesn't mean you cast away the giant But and I think that's something else that the millennials Really can bring to the table is is finding again good collaborative ways to not just Create their new future, but but really work with Um, the their their predecessors And especially in healthcare where the baby baby boomer generation is the largest population that is uh, you know They're going into retirements their Medicare is coming You know, uh, they're kind of the biggest Sector of healthcare right now healthcare consumers. Yeah, they are a huge powerful lobby Um And they are demanding more of a system that isn't designed to fit their needs So if millennials can step in and help create systems that meet their expectations Huge practice opportunities. I know when I do some lecturing at different colleges talking with chiropractic students I'm always like who wants to care for pediatrics and all kinds of people raise their hands And who wants to care for athletes and people are all excited. I'm like and who wants to care for old people And I don't get quite the same response, but I'm telling you, you know, that is a brilliant space to consider If you're going to have a niche practice because healthy aging You know, you're going to have a tremendous population based to draw from and there is a lot that chiropractic can offer these folks Well, dr. Myers, it's been a pleasure. It's uh, I really appreciate your optimism And I hope that the chiropractic students and recent grads you listen to this podcast Take courage and embrace their skill set and put it to use within their chiropractic practice And even put it to use before they graduate because as you said There is no just a student. They have the potential to contribute Even before they're out there in their own clinic or as researchers or whatever it is that they choose to do with their career Any last words of advice and encouragement to the millennial generation? You know, I think what you summarize is really good. I mean they just It's easy to feel like you don't know anything when you're going through school And you're bombarded with jumping through hoops and passing classes and exams and The uncertainty of becoming a healthcare provider is unnerving Um, but you just you know, you have to stay centered in that space of what you don't know You're going to learn and the best providers don't know everything But they know how to find out the answers to their questions and part of that is building an incredible network And that's where millennials have a real leg up. So, you know, the idealism I I think that should be kind of our perspective of reality moving forward And and i'm really excited to work alongside millennials moving forward as well Thank you so much for joining me on explain chiropractic. Yeah, thank you