 Ac rwy'n credu i'n ddweud, ond dyma o'r clesim yn rhan o'r cyfnodd, ddwy'n rhan o'r ddweud. Rwy'n credu i'r cyfnodd, mae'n gwneud arlaedd o Gwrdd yma, a gwneud i'r ddim yn gweithio yma yma i fynd i'r ymlaen y tufnodd yn y ddweud, ar gyfer antirasgwysau, mae'r cyfnodd a'r ddweud â hynny. i'n dwylo'n oed yn ymdrygiad ymdrygiad, dwy llyfr-redu. Yn ymdrygiad ac yn ei bod yn oed yn rhai o'n haf ymdrygiad ymdrygiad, ac mae'n oed yn oed yn unig i'n ddweud â'r ffordd. Mae'n ddweud o'r ffordd o'r peth i'r ymdrygiad. Mae'n oed yn i'r ddweud â'n ffordd o'r Pheueth Siwr. Mae'n oed yn oed yn ymdrygiad i'r HB ac yn ymdrygiad o'r Gwyl Ffyrdd Tsyg. By way of profile, Tiramani works mainly around internationalisation, inclusive and digital education. She approaches higher education challenges based on our own higher education scholar experience in different countries and of course our collaborations with different institutions across the globe. She's been working around of course DEI since her student years in the UK and she founded the Women in Academia Network at Alma Mater, which is the University of Reading. She's been advocating for changes for female students and staff. She's also worked with students with disability, bringing simple solutions to allow them to continue and complete their study of choice. She's currently, like I said, the chair of the anti-racism and learning technology special interest group within the ALT and she's also an advocate for digital equity. So thank you very much Tiramani for joining us this afternoon. And then we also have Emanuella Girei. She is a reader in management at Liverpool Business School at Liverpool John Mores University. She's a colleague. Our research agenda lies at the intersection of management, organisational studies and development studies, particularly on whether and how management theory and practice can contribute to making organisations and institutions and societies more just, more equitable and more sustainable. And of course within this agenda one of our very key research interests is decolonising management knowledge and research. Our third speaker today is Iwi Yng Nghyrgrun. Iwi's got over 20 years experience of working in higher education and nearly 15 years experience of supporting students in HE. She's a reader at Manchester Metropolitan University Business School and she's also a lapsed accountant. She describes herself as an academic activist and anti-racism scholar. In the last five years our work has focused on race and its intersection with other characteristics within the context of student education, experience, transition and progression to graduate labour market and of course to postgraduate study as well. And Iwi is recognised nationally as an expert on risk equity issues that impact students in higher education and also in the space of graduate employment. So thank you very much to our three panellists for honouring our invitation today. So we're looking forward to talking about all things anti-racism, especially around anti-racism research. So again I would also like to thank everyone for coming to today's session. I hope to be a very productive one for us. So what I'll do now is I'll stop sharing so that we can see each other. So we can see the presenters very well. So I'll just stop sharing. Bear with me on second. Now we can see each other. So thank you again for coming. So without further ado can we just jump straight into the questions for the day. Now just to give you a quick background also a sort of housekeeping rules as well is if you've got any questions or any comments with regard to what has been discussed. Then please pop them into the chat section. Once we finish with the set of questions that we've got for the panellist, we will invite everybody else to ask whatever questions that they might have. So if you've got any questions, please pop them into the chat section and either myself or my colleague and Roshni will sort of voice them out so that everyone can hear. So thank you very much again for coming. So the first question really is around your DEI research journey. So if I can ask how did you happen into DEI research or how did you start your journey into research around diversity, equity and inclusion. So if I come to IRT Manifest and then we can come to Manuela after and then Iwi. Thank you. Okay, so where do I start with DEI, right? There's so many of it you already mentioned in the intro. So I think it started about 17 or 18 years ago when I became a PhD student so pretty much the very first month. And I'll tell you why because it was a mix of discrimination, a mix of serendipity as well. And while I stumbled upon some because I didn't get the support that I needed. So I started with the disability work because that's the one that I started first thing in the UK. And so as a PhD student, I actually secured a scholarship. And interestingly enough, my scholarship, me along with two other POC girls, we were not awarded the scholarship amount that we were supposed to get. And interestingly with me that dragged on until the end of my PhD. So somehow I needed to get a job and that's how I started to work with the disability office as a student at that time with them. And it was an experience that kind of stayed with me. I think it will stay with me forever. We had our first blind student in the system engineering department at that time. And interestingly, loads of lecturers at that time were telling her, were trying to pressure her into changing programme. And so there was me and I'll always some lab technicians, we were just kind of working around how do you teach engineering maths. And circuit boards to someone who's born blind. And it was very interesting. I did learn some braille, a bit of maths equation at that time, but which I've forgotten. And interestingly and more kind of the complete opposite polar was at that time I was doing my PhD on augmented reality in virtual reality in a cave. So not just the handset, but in a full room. It was very interesting because while blind students can use that. And I started to question myself a lot on inclusivity then. And yeah, it started around that and the other angle. So you mentioned earlier that I did found the Women in academia network. That was also when I was a PhD student. I happened to, so there was something called the UK Resource Centre for Women in Set. So I started to volunteer with them and we were working on projects for girls in STEM for getting women back into the STEM workforce once they've had a career break. And that's how it started. And one day somebody told me, oh, you know, there's no women network. So that was 17 years ago. And I was like, okay, I'll do it. I'll set it up. And that's how I started to get into more DEI. It was like from disability to women empowerment. And then interesting, it was an interesting journey because I was also discriminated for having done that. And then as at that time I was already, I was obviously an international student. So I already had had experienced in five different countries before. So internationalisation and Tianning was already something very close to me. And I happened to be invited to participate in a focus group for international students. And it was just really alarming that the person, while he was a British born who didn't quite understand the challenges of international students in the UK. And then I decided, okay, if the person who has been paid, I think he is a role who is supposed to help me, cannot help me, then I'll do it myself. That's how I started to do it because I was already active at the EU level and immigration and stuff like this at the EU level, but not in the UK. So then I was like, I'll do it in the UK as well. And then the rest, I think, is a bit of history. And now I'm the chair of anti-rhythm and learning taxing. So it's been different things at different times, but mostly it started when I started the first month of my PhD. I don't know if that answers your question, but that's been a bit of my journey. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I completely understand. So we're really interested in understanding how people start their journey in researching around anti-racism because it can be quite daunting, especially for somebody who's sort of new to the field. And it's always very helpful to see how others actually started their journey within this space. So thank you very much for sharing that. So if I'm then move on to Emanuella. Emanuella. Thank you, Tunde. Thanks a lot. I started working on the issues when I finished my master and I was living in Italy in Sardinia more exactly, which is the region where I come from. And when I finished my master, I set up with a few female colleagues and no-profit organisations and we were mainly working on gender issues in Italy in terms of supporting women to return to work after unemployment or after maternity. And we were involved in different projects linked to the European projects regarding women, emancipation and empowerment. Then I moved to the UK in 2004 and I started working with an organisation which was called Race Equality Network. And the organisation's aim was that of supporting organisations in the social housing sector to deal with inequality within the organisations. So my role within this organisation was that of setting up the training function and support consultancies. So I did work with many social housing organisations supporting them through training or supporting them and developing the strategies, the policies. And it was an enlightening experience for me because the social housing sector is very diverse and I had the opportunity to work with, maybe it is very diverse, maybe not in terms of social class, but it's very diverse for many other different axes of identity. And I had the opportunity to work with tenants association, with board members, with suppliers. So I was exposed to many different realities and working on issues different from gender, disability, race. And in the period I also started working more as an activist with asylum seekers in the UK. And I supported the constitution of an organisation that is called Wast in Manchester, which stands for women asylum seekers together. So I was working with Race Equality Network, which then changed the name to Housing Diversity Network. And then working as an activist, especially with asylum seekers organisations. After this period in 2007, I decided to volunteer for two years with volunteering service overseas. I don't know if you know about this charity, but international charity that places volunteers from the global north to the global south. The base matching skills needed by specific organisation in different countries in the global south with volunteers in the global north. So I went to volunteer for two years in Uganda working as management advisor, organisation development advisor with small NGOs in Uganda. And that was again another very enlightening experience because I arrived there with the hope like many volunteers I assume to be helpful to put my expertise and my experience and the service of these small NGOs working in rural areas. But I realised soon that my knowledge and expertise were not so helpful and that I really had to reinvent and to learn a lot about what being a management advisor meant and how I could support these organisations. So that was a key experience in terms of my engagement with decolonising management knowledge and research because I realised from my lived experience that what I knew about management and what I knew about organisations did not apply in the context where I was working, was not helping those organisations that I was working with. So this led to an engagement with decolonisation and inevitably also with issues around whiteness because I found myself as often as the only white person working in a very rural context with the expert label upon me, the advisor label. So obviously this couple with the colonisation interest that was rising, that I was starting to engage with plus my positionality in the field. This led then to start engaging more deeply with issues around anti-racism, whiteness, racism, coloniality, colonialism and what this all means in the field of management studies because while I was doing, during my period in Uganda I also decided to do a PhD on these issues. So this, what started as a personal engagement became also more an intellectual and theoretical engagement around these issues. I don't know if I have replied, answered your question. No, excellent. Yeah, you've answered it. Thank you very much. Quite a journey both of you had into this space. So thank you for sharing that. I think we're still having difficulty in getting the third panelist in, but we're trying to sort that out. So hopefully we will be able to join us very soon. But let's move on to the next question. So thank you very much for sharing those journeys with us. So next question then is around, you know, okay, you've happened into this space, you know, you started your journey in here. Are there any sort of specific challenges that you faced, you know, when you started out in this journey? Or are there any challenges that you currently face in your research into a DEI? This could be at maybe institutional challenges or even at a personal level. Are there any challenges? Jeremy, shall I come to you first? Okay, thanks a lot today. So definitely there are challenges. I think in any research you do at institutional level or when you're trying to do something new, you will have challenges. And in DEI particularly, well in the UK, you do have challenges. I'll break it into three if that's all right with you. So at a research level, DEI is in itself challenging, okay? So you're challenging the status quo, the de facto, so de facto there'll be challenges. And for example, many times I've been questioned by people. It's not because they are coming from maybe an inquisitive point of view, but they are just simply unaware. They are maybe not well enough read or have not been exposed entirely. So even for example, on the topic of anti-racism, there's always this challenge that you have people who just not necessarily have that experience with it, but then they do create challenges within the research. And there's also interestingly, like in the educational sector, you know, I wouldn't say that education, for example, like even if you take anti-racism because our media is so biased. So there are people who have been framed to understand racism and anti-racism in a specific way because they are not reading all the literature that's there. And not everyone, I would say, is open to a healthy debate. And it's likely difficult also even in terms of collaborators. So either you take your little group of people, like for example us who are present today in this chat and we collaborate on a research, which then kind of defies the full purpose of DEI and getting it out then getting people to really understand what you're trying to do and what is challenging those stages quo. Or you do the alternative, which is, yeah, you invite everyone, but then you have to firefight all the time. So that's one major challenge that I face. It's more like mindset of people. So you can have people who are less knowledgeable, less passionate than you or even in the skill set or not willing to even be open to, you know, learning more. So you have that. And I wrote a blog about navigating racism or pseudo anti-racist. That's from my personal experience. But at a personal level, I mean, I've had cracks, you know, not being renewed, etch or cases, all these things. You have to go through that. When you do DEI, you go through all that because a lot of people who do DEI are doing it because of live experiences as well. So, and one of the things I would say is when you're trying to create impact is someone else higher up sometimes would come and want to own your research or own your work, own your deliverable. And yeah, let's say it, the word is getting jealous about what your success in some way. And very often you, it's this fear basically of being replaced by maybe they get fearful that oh, this person is more knowledgeable when they replace me in the job. So kind of that thing. And this is both as a student and as a staff. So when I created, for example, the Women's Academy Network, I faced loads of issues there. So one, I had to actually relocate myself from my department, which was Systems of Engineering. I had to relocate to somewhere else because of all the common, all the discrimination from male peers. But also there were women who, female staff who could not get their head around the idea that oh, there you go. That student who's just new to the UK and doing this thing that no one had the idea of doing. So you will get this at a, it's very subtle and you need to read that. You need to understand that because it chokes you at some point in time. And I'll give you another example. For example, in one particular place where I work, they introduce a reward, a staff reward system which was about the values of the organisation. And I got all of them, which was about passion, I think, integrity, excellence and I think support it was. So my online manager had a really hard time to congratulate me. He didn't congratulate me. He didn't say congrats. So it's that sense of integrity. And I've had tough appraisal. Millings, which I knew I was, you know, getting, you know, everything was, was being taken. But then there were things that were being created, right? And in another institution that I work, I didn't even have my probation. I didn't even go for my probation. It was very interesting and fortunately, SLT and that I knew what my work was, what I was working on. And they were like, they just bypassed my ex-line manager and his online manager and there's just everything. So you need to kind of know procedures and stand up for yourself. Because when you're doing the right thing, it's, it may sound like alien to other people. So they'll create, it's just that fear, it's natural for people to fear to be afraid. And it's just a natural fear that kind of, they automatically just create challenges for you. Even if they are not even working on specifically the line of research that you are doing. And at a more holistic level, I would say, like at an institutional level and societal level. I'll give you an example. For example, the Aurora programme. I'm pretty sure everyone on the call knows about the Aurora programme. If you visit the Advanced IG page, there are universities that are identifying male staff, maybe because, I don't know, they are the team lead for inclusion. They are the team lead for the other, a privacy or whatever. So they are identifying male staff to be champions of Aurora. So it's like having a white male for the champion of a race equality charter. Now, I'm not saying that men should not be ahead of women empowerment activities. But let's face it, if you ask a man to please describe your experience about menopause, about period crimes, about birth process. They'll feel on that. So my take on that is, it's so ridiculous to be honest. In 2024 you have HEIs, Higher Education Institution is still not understanding how DEI should be done. And obviously this affects your research rate. And also a little bit sadden with the fact that the female staff and women in leadership of those particular institutions are still stuck with self-doubt, are still stuck with insecurity in those institutions. And no one is actually raising a voice. And I've just given you an example around Aurora and that's existing right now. There's proof for it. It's a real story. So if you go even for race equality charter or anything, you go about, that's what you see. And I've no point in time saying that we should not include men in the conversational course we should because the problem is the man. So when you look at anti-racism work as well, the problem is okay, we need to actually get more white people to get involved in the conversation, right? But having them as the champion, I think this thing of, okay, who am I seeing of them? They're there. And that actually impacts research, impacts students, impacts everything at all level. It's very interesting. And for me, in my case, when I do get collaborators from such institutions, what often happens is you get people saying X, Y, Z, and it remains X, Y, Z because the people don't feel empowered enough because institutionally at the institution that's the message they're seeing. So in case of women empowerment project, it would be like they are seeing themselves as inadequate. They already have been subconsciously told they're inadequate, right? Because the institution has identified a male champion. So when you do around anti-racism, it's the same thing. All the work that you want to do, especially to around DI, it's still like that. There will be challenges. There will be challenges in DI work, but I think my take on it, how I've done it, I think the over a decade of experience in the UK has kind of taught me a few things, which is build a skill set. I've kind of been building my skill set and going for CPDs and just upskilling myself, and I don't sugarcoat stuff as well. So I'm willing, at some extent, to have a circle which is decreasing, but as long as the value of the circle is increasing, I don't know if that's clear to whoever is listening, is I'd rather have connections where I can hold a healthy debate on a research project and put the pros and the cons on a project as it is black and white on paper rather than sugarcoat things. And yeah, I think it's a lot about who you travel with when you're doing research, not just research, I mean any DI work. It's who you take that path with, who's with you. I hope I've answered. There are so many challenges left to me that I'm telling. It's just, you know, all these are sometimes nowadays like things that I love on because it's so long ago when I was like, did that? I mean, like, for example, I'll tell you, I said earlier, I started to do disability work because I was not, I would do the scholarship that I was supposed to do. And at that time, I was told something very specific, which was, don't ask for your full scholarship. You're not supposed to question the white male. And at that time, yeah, I didn't question the white male and I'll tell you something else. Even when I was a staff, I've seen loads of people, loads of staff threatening international students in chopping their scholarship. If they don't, you know, like just to kind of, yeah, that's how you need to act. I expect you to act like this. If you act anything differently, I'm going to stop you. This is still happening to date. So the challenges that I faced so many years back, and I think maybe the other like Iwi and Amarulla might agree with that as well. The challenges are still the same, to be honest. It's just a bit under the carpet. It's different people doing that. It's different collaborators, obviously, but it's still the same. Yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah, I agree with you. I think it's still a sort of systemic issue and that's something that we're looking hopefully to address. So thank you very much, Tirumani, that's been very rich. Emanulla, can I come to you? Thank you, Tunda. I share many of the points and the views that Tirumani has just discussed. I agree certainly with that. There are many challenges and many have already identified. One that she has already discussed is that this is working on anti-racism or equality inclusion is a never-ending job. We are very far away from a just society or from just organisations and it is continuously an unfinished job. So just this is not a kind of work where you can have quick or short-term rewards. So already this is a big challenge. But this is an important point that we should remember because it requires a level of internal determinancy of skills, but also personal skills in terms of resilience, resistance. Because it can be challenging every single day. And because it's unfinished, long, but it's also because it's a kind of journey that also implies some steps forward and many steps backwards. And then again you go forward and backwards. So it's not a linear process. And so this is one of the challenge. Another challenge that I face on a personal level is that is often there are some joys, but it's also a kind of work where there is lots of grief and fear. And personally you have to build some structure to be able to deal with aspects. And recently we have seen in the UK just a few days ago we have seen what happened to our MP, Diane Albot. And that shows that event to me showed that sometimes we have really to return to the basics. And we are really on a, when you think that some level of awareness of some levels of rights have been granted, then something happens that you realise that no, we are again at ground zero. At national level, this was certainly what happened to the MP last week is an event. What is happening on an international level in Palestine again is another context and scenario where remind us that basic rights are not yet granted to all human beings in the world. So this is very challenging and very difficult emotionally. As being in this field as a white person also brings other distinctive challenges which are for my personally for me are always due to the slippery and somehow ambiguous position that I perceive in myself being a white. For instance a white scholar, a white researcher studying the colonisation and to what extent as a white person can I contribute to this debate without colonising them, without enacting oppressive dynamics towards certain scholarships, towards certain scholars, towards some colleagues. So there are important questions such as do I have anything to add here? Will my contribution here in terms of words, writing, hacks, might be oppressive for someone around me? These are always questions that I need to ask myself. It's not a comfortable, it's always an uncomfortable work and I think that this level of feeling uncomfortable, I find it very healthy and it helps me to continuously self reflect on my role, my possibility and decide where it's better for me to be there, to be silent or do nothing. So this challenge, this also is another specific challenge that I perceive with regards to the work, EDI work and my own specific positionality. Excellent, thank you very much Immanuella. I mean you're quite right, again it depends on your position and as you said rightly said that this is not a linear process. You take one step forward, two steps backwards but I suppose it takes an emotional tool on yourself as well but we'll get to that later on. So can I invite Iwi now? So the question for those of you that are just joining us, the question that our panellist is helping us to understand is with regards to if there are any specific challenges that they faced when they are researching into DEI, either at an institutional or even at a personal level. So Iwi, can I ask you to give us a response, thank you. Good afternoon everybody. It's lovely to see you all. Thanks Tunde for the invitation first of all. Yeah, obviously echo all of the comments that have been made before. I think there is something about the emotional labour of this work that goes unrecognised and that we can find ourselves in very harmful spaces. I think there's also something about the lens through which this work is looked at. So there's obviously policy work around EDI, accreditations, things that I would argue might be quite informative that universities and companies go for. And then there's an intention there that isn't about social justice but is about, you know, reputation or looking good or whatever it might be that can add to the harm in these spaces that I believe are people who are involved in EDI work who perhaps see it as a way of career advancement, because it's, you know, very in vogue at the moment and I recognise that from conversations in the research that I have with different people that it seems, you know, after George Floyd, race was front and centre of EDI work. And now we move on to neurodivergence under the characteristics and I think there's a lack of understanding around intersectionality. Again, which, you know, I think can be quite harmful in this space. I think there are the obvious difficulties around funding. So there's pots of money around when it's kind of in vogue and people are running around thinking we've got this social justice issue that's affecting everybody. Let's do something about it. But actually the rest of the time it can be very difficult to access funding for this sort of work. And I think that imposter syndrome is something certainly as an individual I have struggled with in this work as well. And I think the lack of black women professors, as we know, there's been advancements now, thankfully, with, you know, initiatives like 1-100. But three years ago to say we only had 28 black women professors out of over 17,000 at that time, you know, as someone who was then coming into research, it was really difficult to access a mentor, or to have someone who might sponsor me in my organisation for this work that I do. So I found that very difficult and I had a very, very, very difficult experience as a PhD student, which I don't think is a unique experience for ratio minority people working in research that effectively meant I was self-taught and as I say have huge imposter syndrome when it comes to actually doing research. So I think, you know, all of those things together mean that it can be a really difficult space to be in. And this is why it's fantastic events like this happen because you find your tribe, you find your people, you know, you gain strength from collective action and from having access to people who have similar experiences and can understand and can offer advice and support and point you to opportunities, which is something that, you know, I've kind of learned to look for perhaps a bit more effectively over the years. The other thing that I would say is, you know, often people will say to me, oh, you're such a nice person. That's why you do, you know, this EDI work because you're good hearted. And yeah, a lot of us are. There are some people who aren't. And actually, that's not what EDI is about. It's not about being a nice person, you know, till they spoke about the kind of systemic racism, Emanuella. And Emanuella also spoke about those things that kind of really harm for societal systemic barriers, biases, prejudices that can negatively impact on particular groups of people, and it takes everybody. So the last thing that I would say is very tactical work and you need to learn how to become tactical and that's a challenge. That's been a challenge for me in this work, something that I've had to develop. But also I very much welcome my white colleagues who come into this space because I feel an obligation to do this work because I see the injustices that impact on family, friends. You know, I see students who are coming through as my son and daughter, but actually white colleagues who actually come into the space and recognise their positionality and our co-conspirators choose to do that work. And it's not easy work, but I don't think we can be blinded to the fact that there are also some people who come into this work for self interest purposes. And it's about finding your tribe within all of that, but also taking care of yourself while being hugely important because it can be quite harmful. But it is joyous at the same time. Well, excellent. Thank you very much for that. I mean, it's very clear that there are challenges and there are hurdles that we need to overcome. And it's very clear that, yes, it's not a linear process. You know, we're dealing with people's mindsets, you know, people that have been taught in particular, we are thinking and asking them to think differently can then, you know, become a big challenge. Emanuella, of course, also taught around that sort of positionality, which we also mentioned what we're talking about. You know, allyship, which is also something that we've been talking about at LGMU recently. So hopefully we will be able to sort of cover some of those issues. But if I were to sort of move on very quickly to the next question, again, I'm very mindful of time. We've only got about 40 minutes left. So if you can, you know, maybe strictly condense your answers to maybe two minutes or three minutes, that would be very, very helpful. I know there's a lot to say and I apologise for putting this limit on you. I shouldn't be doing that by apologising for the sake of time. So the next question is around, you've done, I mean, we've talked about challenges now, and I know a lot of you are doing a lot of meaningful and impactful work. So if somebody, for example, was thinking of, you know, doing this work, or maybe they're currently working around DEI, how have you gone about generating impact from your DEI research? So if I swap it around this time around, if I go to Emanuella first, then Iwi, and then Tirumani. Thank you, Tunde. I will try to be as brief as possible. I think that in terms of impact, it depends on what we mean by impact, in the sense that how impact is generally considered and captured by metric driven procedures, forms, etc. It is very difficult for my research to have a short time quantitative impact. I see my research and my work as a part of a collective effort where I contribute to a bigger goal together with other colleagues, activists in academia outside that are working towards the same goal. So I am very happy not to enjoy my micro impact and to be part of a more collective effort. In the short time, the way in which I try to achieve impact, I embed my principles in the way I do research. So if I'm working with other people, if I'm working with organisations, when I'm working with communities in the UK and elsewhere, the impact that I want to see is within the research project itself, making it sure that the way we work reflects and embeds the principle I uphold in my anti-racist and the colonial work. I hope I have been... Yes, that's very helpful. Thank you very much. Be mindful of the impact within that sort of research context. So that's very helpful. Thank you very much, Manuela. So Iwi, if I come to you. Sure. So what I would say, over time I've realised the importance of evaluation and dissemination and telling the stories of the people for whom I work with and work for. So of my research is with students for students. And I make sure now that I have evidence of difference, evidence of quality, evidence of experience, and I capture that in all sorts of different ways that will speak to different audiences. So I'm telling the story of the work that we're doing and sharing that. I engage in a lot of action-based research participative or participatory research. So I'm working with students and they're developing as researchers and they're bringing their own ideas and insights into the work that I'm doing with them. I engage in a lot of scholarship, a lot of research activities. So even though, you know, on an education pathway in terms of my career trajectory, I make sure that I go out and do the conferences. I'm in the community. I'm in schools. Everywhere I can be really to kind of talk about the work that's happening and to try and involve as many different stakeholders as possible. And finally, what I would say is the impact for the students is everything. So just as Manuela was saying, I'm not bothered about four-star publications as much as other people might be. I'm more bothered that the work that I'm doing is serving the underserved and the students, the minoritised and marginalised students for whom, you know, I'm trying to support. And if I can tell the story along the way and share that with others and bring others collectively to mobilise that work even more, then that's impacted me. Excellent. Thank you very much, Iwi. Tiramani. So a bit of everything that you've said. I think personally, I don't think impact is a one person thing. It's like you create a wave, you kind of go. So I go in depth, I create a wave, and it's the other people that have impacted who kind of then create the wider impact. Because it's so intangible, I think, Emanuel, I was saying you can't measure impact. I'll give you an example. There's one particular university I want to mention its name. They did a very nice project around DEI for new students. And after two years, they stopped it because they were not seeing results. So people tend to think that DEI will give immediate results. It will give small immediate results, but not the one that you're measuring. And that's where a lot of people get it wrong. I'm not saying, well, a lot of people also tend to say change is slow, which in some ways is true, but you need to have small steps. You need to have small goals, but if you just go for the big goals, you're not going to see that at all in DEI. I mean, anti-racism is a, you know, we are fighting a generational issue here for many generations, right? And one thing I don't know if it was, I think it was Iwi who was talking about reflection. So that's one thing that I do a lot, which is writing notes, reflect and improve. And I think the impact really probably started when I started to blog about it. I mean, I don't sugarcoat. And I think the good thing as well with me is because I'm a consultant, so I'm not associated with any institution. So I will say it as it is. I will not be, I don't have to be scared with any one line manager or a child kind of, you know, seeing what I'm saying. I'm just saying it as it is. So not sugarcoating has really helped me in creating impact. But one of the things that I have seen creates more impact is actually when I started to take the creative route. But two years ago, I started to write poems. I participated in the first open mic and it has had loads of impact. It's been referenced by people. It went, somebody took it and put it in a magazine. So I was like, wow, seriously. And that's how I realized that people were not necessarily, you know, because different people gather different things, have different energy. So it's trying different ways as well. But I can't exactly pinpoint on impact as such because impact, it can be, I still get people who are reading something I've written two or three years back. And I'm like, okay, I forgot that I wrote about that. So impact, I think it's something that once you once you do something around the eye, because you're trying to change the social fabric, right? So this will have long lasting impact. It's a long run as well. So you can't exactly put a, you know, put a measure to that. I think that's a bit of a mistake that sometimes we were like, yeah, there are certain things that, yeah, we need to be tangible on. Sorry, have I been two minutes more? No, no, no, you are, you are, you are, yeah, you are on time and on point. Thank you very much for that to Romani. Thank you very much to our panellys there because I know you've got plenty to see on that topic. So if we move quickly then to the fourth question. So we've been talking, we've talked about challenges. We've talked about, you know, generating impact and what that could look like. Now I'm sort of going at this sort of personal level now. And to want everybody else, I'm not putting anybody here on the spot. You know, I've sent this question beforehand to them. So they know hopefully what a response to give to this. So the question is of all your research activities or project or even publications, which one is the most fulfilling for you? And we want to know why? Because, you know, you have to be passionate about this work, you know, to do it, you know, as there been any instance in your journey where you were like, oh yes, I'm glad, you know, I'm glad I did that or I'm glad, you know, we achieved that. And, you know, so just you share with us one moment like that in your DEI research journey. Again, it doesn't have to be a popular response. It could be something I would put in quotes selfish, you know, for yourself. So please do share with us. So Iwi, shall we go to you first and then? Sure. Thank you. OK, so mine is a project called Aspire that I led just over two years ago. I'm really proud of it for lots of different reasons. I'm going to try not to take up too much space, but I have lots to say about the project. So the first thing is it was funded by a research grant from UKI in Research England. So it's the biggest grant I've ever got by a long way, £340,000, completely unexpected. And for me was complete validation of a lot of the work that I've done to that day, to that point and confirmed that I can do research, even though lots of people had told me and doing my PhD that I could not. So that's one thing. I'm not just proud of the fact that, you know, I sat within the 1% of the black researchers who managed to get that sort of funding from a funding council. But actually it was what the money enabled me to do, which was to design this programme, the black heritage people. And it was to address some of the pipeline issues of black heritage people getting into doctoral study or graduate employment. And in the very first cohort we supported 34 people, some of whom were at university, some of whom weren't. So we reached out to the community. Fantastic outcomes. I met one of our graduates from the first cohort just yesterday. She's 62, she started a PhD. She did a masters after she'd finished the programme and decided she wanted to do a PhD. We have people for whom they did not think a PhD or doctoral study was an option for them. Who realised actually there had just been this imposter syndrome, this crisis of confidence. They didn't think it was for them. And we demystified what PhD is about. We built their confidence. We opened up access to opportunity and they've soared. And so impact absolutely was achieved with this programme. The only thing that I would say is I left the programme for lots of reasons that I'm not going to go into, but it was harmful. And as a black woman leading that project, it was hugely, hugely difficult. And there was misogynoir, there was harm, there was appropriation of work. And again, this is a risk that can happen in this work. So whilst it was the most amazing thing that I have ever done and has led to other work that I'm now doing, which is equally brilliant, it taught me a lot about the harm in this space. So I'm really thankful for the opportunity to have done it. And as I say, it has transformed lives, which is why I'm trusting. Sorry Tunde, I took lots of time. You know that's all right. It's really interesting to hear that sometimes it's not just doom and gloom. You know that, you know, bits that you enjoy, you know, those, ah, this is why I do this, you know, the sort of impact that you're making. And I'm sorry to hear that, you know, you know, what will be will always be, you know, in the sort of work that we do. So thank you very much for that. Immanuel. Thank you. I will mention two very briefly, very quickly. One very fulfilling recent experience that I had was to apply for a PhD scholarship. You know about this, Tunde. And in applying for this, I met by email lots of, we know that is very difficult for international students to have a full PhD scholarship. So when there was this opportunity, I contacted several colleagues that I have in Uganda. By the way, after a process, I met a fantastic colleague that she is working already as a lecturer in a university, but she doesn't have the PhD. And in the end, we presented the project and we were so successful and now she has a full scholarship for a PhD here. And I was very, very, very happy about this result. It was not expected. It was very difficult. It was really fulfilling, although a process. And another one is a paper that I wrote about whiteness and decolonisation on which I hired work for like three, four years. There's been a very long journey, but I'm very glad because it helped me to write down and address some key questions that I had in my mind for a very long time. And I need it personally to find a way to write them down. And I hope it will help also other colleagues, also including white colleagues to engage with racism and decolonisation in higher education. Excellent. Thank you very much for that. And I share in your joy. Thank you, Manuela. Tirumali. I'll end to be quick. So it's one thing. If I have to keep to technology, it's my work around assessment and learning technology and my understanding of our own internationalisation and how this fits into using technology. There is a tendency, I think, like in the West, that, yeah, we're going, you know, people like fancy technologies and get swayed easily by anything new. For example, right now it's AI and chat DVD right. And then, however, the problem is then imposing this onto other regions. So if we take just the recent hype with chat DVD, I think we were saying where the funds are, right. So for example, US has a very good reason why US is a superpower, you know, and it will remain the top most for quite some time for a few decades. It's almost like a universal empire that kind of uses a master and slavery system in some way because you've got most of the world, which is under the US hegemony mainly because it has developed this strategy. And it comes, you know, this includes all technology, whether it's military or whether it's anything, right, science and obviously learning, learning technology. And I don't want to go too much in detail, so because you will involve lots of geopolitics and everything and it will go on forever. A few good hours, but there's something else that as my role as chair in learning how the eldest thing is to be honest, I spent a good chunk of my time earlier firefighting, sadly, rather than creating impact and things like this. Iwi, I think, was talking about something tactical is you've got to kind of sometimes be tactical on doing, it's not just always about being very nice and things like this. So there are projects that I get involved, which yes, it's to change things, it's to really change things on the ground. And moving away from learning technology, it's my worker on internationalisation. So I do loads of mentoring around like several universities elsewhere, so students and stuff as well. So that's my little baby, closest to heart. Oh, excellent. Thank you very much, Romani. I mean, yeah, fantastic work, amazing work and, yeah, separately, you know, I'm really proud of all the work that you've done. And you, because I see all your work on LinkedIn, so yeah, I'm always very, very happy to see that. If I was, if I was to then come by, because I'm again mindful of time, we've got 20 minutes left and I know that there are members within the audience who would like to ask questions or add comments. So if I condense the next two questions into one, and that is around talking about anti-racism, research around anti-racism now, so far we've been talking about DEI, but right now we want to concentrate on anti-racism. OK, so thinking specifically of anti-racism, from your experience, what are the challenges that one would face when researching into anti-racism, especially when we're looking at anti-racism within the learning technology space. So challenges, one, and then what then would be your advice, OK, to somebody who was wanting to start their journey into researching around anti-racism or even maybe DEI. OK, so what sort of advice would you give to them thinking about some of the challenges involved in this space? Tirmani, can I come to you first? OK, so I'll take the technology part first. So I think there's a disconnect between, we are using learning technology, but there's a whole science and a whole thing behind how do you develop technology and there's a complete disconnect between these two people. So I happen to be a software engineer, so I kind of understand that and I also happen to be working a lot with people sitting in Africa and Asia as well. So I was a remercius, right? So I'll give you a very simple example right now. We're using Backbook Collaborate and every time we use Backbook Collaborate, we have to invite our speakers before him and give them the little surprise. And by the way, you cannot filter your background. You cannot apply any effect. So this in itself, like there is this assumption that, for example, everyone is owning their own house, for example, will have a nice office well decorated with few, you know, books behind. We were read or something like that. And that in, you know, when you talk of anti-racism, a lot of people who come from marginalized, vulnerable, you know, and when also when we're talking of people of color, certain ethnicities, they do feel fearful. They do feel humiliated to even show their background sometimes. We've had this whole digital poverty. I think I shared a link that you can share in the chat about digital poverty. There's so much around that. But why are we taking time? Why are we taking time to change these things? And one other thing that I'll tell you. So the first VLE that got developed in the UK was Wolf. It was called Wolf in 1991. So when I was actually, I was, I was working at Wolverhampton and we had both canvas and Wolf basically running in parallel. So Wolf was being used for program validation and all the bits and pieces, the processes. And then on another end, you had all the teaching being done in canvas. But again, back to what I said earlier is US is a superpower for a reason because we kind of just outsource everything. Why are British universities, universities still outsourcing all of this development, all of these things? And we cannot find a solution for us locally here if we're relying on software that's been developed elsewhere. And that coming back to charge to be what I said earlier with what I said about geopolitics, it's all about that as well. Because we are relying for a solution that's not for us. And we are thinking we'll get a solution. And what happens is we end up creating a bigger problem. And I'm, I think I'm lucky in the sense that I tend to always stand back and look at ahead. What's the bigger problem? So one thing around that. And we'll next question was, what was it? Oh, it was about. Sorry, I wasn't you. Right? Sorry. Sorry, it was not a journey. I would say don't listen to everybody. I think the journey is something people come into the journey where first of all, they are people, right? They come for various reasons. Either they live experience or experience of their loved ones or something they've witnessed that they really want to change about it. Okay. And they will have biases because of that. Okay. For example, but I've also come across, for example, people who work around certain disability projects, but they've never directly worked with any students with disability. So you also have this happening. And then obviously researchers, we are people, we have our own biases and framing. So for example, it's like, I'll give you an example. So last year we had a black tiktoker who was just going in houses, randomly walking into people's houses, right? You probably have heard of that. And a lot of people on my LinkedIn as well, which I follow as in a professional capacity. A lot of activists, a lot of researchers as well just went racism, but it was not a case of racism, right? So I think we have to look at as influencers, as researchers, as activists and all, we have to look at what we're doing as well. We do have a certain responsibility. And there's always this thing that happens. And I think it was Emanuel who mentioned about Dan. I bought a bit earlier last week what happened, right? So that's happening now today and that's in the parliament. And it's exactly a copy of what we see in society as well. So my thing is, is get into it. And a lot of the thing that I learned was trial and error, fall down, get up and become more resilient and learn. There's so many examples that I can give you. I think last year when I did a, it's on recording when I did the ALT, ALT-C conference I presented on behalf of ALT-Seg. And I shared another example about a DI lawyer that he ended up doing on social media. So we need to be careful. And literature itself is, I think I'm blessed in some way that I'm a polyglot so I can source out information in various places. And I can have a, I wouldn't say full fledge. I don't read or write all languages, but I still have a better understanding. I can get a better understanding. So yeah, I think it's not really specific advice, but it's from my experience, what I've learned. So did I keep it simple? I don't know. Thank you. Thank you. That's really useful to know. And I think it's very helpful to know as well. So if I come to you, we To answer the first bit of the question today, I think which was about technology, wasn't it? And some of the issues associated with tech and this anti-racism work. First thing is people don't like talking about race. They find it quite uncomfortable and people don't like to fit in their discomfort. So that's always, you know, there's always the what aboutism conversation to get over. I think specifically with the learning technology, part of the problem is people take the learning context, but they don't recognize the context. So there is an assumption that the learning context is colorblind. And so people have a hard time understanding equity and the idea that we are increasing the size of the pie and not taking bits of the pie away from people. I think there's a difficulty in understanding what equity is and that you have to meet people where they are. But that doesn't mean that people lose out. So I think there's that. I think specifically then in terms of the tech bit, what you then find is that people talk about technology as a thing that is separate from the context. So some of the comments that were made before about accessibility, for example, are not factored into the research or the funding requirements around tech research that I think is really, really important. So we see this when people have these conversations about AI being the great leveler and not understanding that actually AI in the same way that a lot of tools are can open up access opportunity, but it can also be a big barrier to people. The fact that AI doesn't have ethics, in my view, there's no statutory body around ethics or legislation that protects users from some of those harms. The fact that it uses data scraping, machine learning, all the biases that are vetted into the data that we have available on the internet and all the information sources now are just baked into what AI does. And there isn't a recognition of that then when people are doing the research or asking for the funding around those specific contextual factors. So we know from the research, incarceration rates, if you look at graduate recruitment, you know which groups are going to be disproportionately impacted by the use of AI or other technology. And for me, it's because people separate the context, don't understand equity, or there's a willfulness not to recognise that. And actually all it does is perpetuate the harms that we have in society for the same groups that we have anyway. And I think that's hugely problematic obviously. The advice that I would give to people, as I'm really negative all the time, I don't need to be. I came into this work saying, I'm going to change the world, it's going to be brilliant. And then you realise you're sat in rooms with fantastic people who've been doing this work for 30 years. And we'll convince you that actually the marginal gains are still gains, the collective effort that we have moves things forward. And it is not a linear iterative process, it will be two steps forward, five steps back. But if we just acknowledge that by doing something and having some impact collectively, that moves things forward, then that should motivate people. But always be mindful that you have to protect yourself in this. But there are others who are doing the work, who you can seek out, who can help move things forward. So my one bit of advice would be find a network, find your tribe and try to find a mentor. Excellent, thank you very much. Very well put. Thank you very much, Uwe. If I ask Immanuel at his sort of coming, particularly if you can sort of maybe touch on around the issue of allyship, somebody who's sort of starting in this journey, who for example maybe is a white colleague and who wants to start working within this space, what would be your advice for them? Thank you, Tunde. My first advice would be that I would invite them to look at racism and whiteness as social dynamics structural processes to move from individual focus of the racist person or the activity to move from an individual, a focus on the individual to a focus on the process of social, rooted dynamic structure that we have in our society. Because if we see whiteness as an ingrained structure of our society, it is not possible to be outside it. You are part of a system that awards privilege and oppression according to the skin colours and other axis of identity. So, if you do your homework and learn how this work at the societal level and within institutions, within your own organisations, it is virtually impossible not to think that you have a role to play. Because either you choose it or not, you are already part of this dynamics. And the more you come closer to issues of oppression, inequality, racism, the more opportunities you have to do a part, do your part on the right side of the history. And in order for you to do this, my second piece of advice would be to engage personally in relations in many different ways, reading, engaging in a relationship with those that have lived experience that is different from yours. Because this true building relationship with different people that have lived experience different from your own, that you can understand how best you can support them in creating more equal workplaces and societies for them and for all of us. Excellent. Thank you very much, Emanuella, because in a white ally she was also an area that is, you know, at the moment a lot of institutions are not getting right. So it's very important to start to have that sort of conversation and to really get the ball rolling in this area. To cap it all up, if I was to ask you, in just one sentence, if you can manage it, okay. I know it's not easy, but in just one sentence, what does your own version of an ideal anti-racist institution look like? What should that institution look like for you to say that that is an anti-racist institution? To Emanuella first. I can give you a one line, yeah. So it's basically just a business equation, which is commitment from the higher education sector plus capital, obviously access to capital, plus consistency from regulators and commitment from people. People is everyone. And that's when you get to see something, but I'll add something else. You will not get to see that in the UK, though. I had a little short story to share, but it will take two minutes off. I'll skip that. Well, we can come back to that after, you know, if we've got enough time, because we'd love to hear that. Emanuella. Very briefly, for me, an anti-racist organisation is an organisation that is able to look at racism within the organisation. And they are able to look at it, to name it, and to put in place system and mechanism to contrast it, which is very different from writing policies and strategies toward the future or using terms such diversity inclusion. I'm talking about an organisation that is committed to, because racism exists in all organisations. So it would be impossible to find a single organisation that is entirely, that doesn't have any level of racism. There is, and there is a lot of it in higher education, for instance, and we know because that data tells us this. So an anti-racist organisation is an organisation that starts its journey towards inclusion, looking at why, in which occasions, in which practices are we racist, and how can we stop this? Excellent. Thank you very much for that, Emanuella. Eweith. Felt like I was in an exam today. You know, when you have to write down an answer, you have to get it right. So I've written because everyone knows I can talk, so I have written something down very quickly. So for me, intentionally, explicitly, authentically and consistently addressing racial bias, whilst reflecting and actively implementing systemic changes to address it. Wow. OK. Very, very impressively done. Thank you very much. That's really something done, and your bottom line is very well. Thank you for that. So thank you very much to the panelists. I think there's a couple of questions in the chat space. I'll just read them out. Perhaps maybe one person should attempt it. If anybody else has anything additional to input, then please feel free to do that. We've only got four minutes left, so please again be mindful of your answers. So the first question is from Rob. So what is the impact of a non-representative staff group on the student population? Are there any ways to become more representative and open? I'll take that. There are ways of becoming more representative, but then when we do representation, let's remember there's a COTA system that is not working in the UK and is not working in any other countries as well. So who are we asking to represent us? And if I may share my one minute and a half story now, do I have time? So quick story. About six months ago, there's a student who actually published a book, Saurant, Roshmi Saurant. So she was the first Hindu student representative at the Oxford University student company, whatever they called it. So she was the president. And there was a true story. Go to the news and you'll be able to Google and get all of that. So there's a staff who picked on her, went on a witch hunt, attacked her previous post that she's written that her mother, her parents, her past university and everything was just like creating stories about it. And she published a book of things that she couldn't say on the British side. She put that in her book and you can go Google it, read it and it will tell you loads of stories that have not been said in the media, that have not been said in the open. And even the media label, what ended up happening was what the media label as the bonds of Oxford were a group of academics asking the university to change the social media policy because the person who basically attacked those two. The student on social media is now was now being attacked by people and was feeling threatened. And last time that I checked the person is still in his role. Okay, and that same person actually had been and I'll tell you the comment exactly what it is because I think it needs to be as in details. No, what's happening really just don't talk of representation but there are things happening if you've got the wrong person. It can be the right place but the wrong person. So the person actually even commented in an actress comment which was about men who was flashing their genitals to them. And his response on social media was what did you do with your genitals when they showed it to you according to you. That's a staff in our institution in a higher education sector in the UK who's saying that in public right and you can imagine what power they have on students. And that person is still in place so we have institution that are creating changes in the UK, but they are not willing to change and they are protecting those perpetrators. So representation can be done but it's got to be done carefully. And I specifically wanted to tell you that example because it's very, it's very profound and I can myself share loads of example from my own experience from the experience of students coming crying to me. It's happening. It's happening now every day. I understand. Thank you so much for sharing that to your money. I suppose there's so many things happening in our society which of course hopefully we can start to address a bit by bit. Again, let me first thank our panellists for giving us their time today and sharing their experience and their expertise around this topic. It's a difficult one so we really appreciate you sharing your experience. So thank you very much to Romani. Thank you very much, Emmanuella, and thank you Iwi. For those in the audience, unfortunately we've sort of run out of time. If you've maybe put some questions in the chat, I apologise, we can take those chats offline and then we can hopefully address some of your questions. So thank you very much for your participation. If you want to get involved with this, our SIG, that's the mailing list there for you to see. So please do subscribe and we'll hopefully be happy to have you as part of our community. And if you're interested in any of these sort of resources and materials that we've got within this special interest group, again, those are links that will be very useful for you to have. So thank you very much, everyone, for coming. We hope you've really enjoyed it. I've thoroughly enjoyed it and hopefully see you next time we have a similar event. So thank you very much for coming. Roshni? I'll add something quickly so we have had more questions in the chat and I'll address it and add some more information in the blog and we can get some other response from the other panellists as well. Is that okay? Excellent, excellent. Thank you very much for that. Thank you everyone for coming. See you next time. Yes, if you stop recording now. Thank you, thanks all. Thank you so much Manuela, thank you. We need that. Thank you very much Ewe, thank you. Oh no, I'm just going to say apologies. I'm so sorry I was late to the sessions. I'm sure the technical ineptitude was on my side, but at least managed to get here. So thanks to them. Thanks for the opportunity. Thanks for coming Ewe, really appreciate you. Thank you. Thank you everyone. I'm just trying to save the chat now, let's see. I'm trying to stop the recording and I can't seem to figure it out. Stop, stop already. That's why I couldn't find it. Because it's not showing, oh wait. Oh no, it's still in progress, bear with me. No, no.