 And we're live, I believe. Welcome, welcome, tonight. Myself, and would you like to introduce yourself? And me. Bookborn. Myself and me will be shot, it's the usual. I wasn't prepared. I wasn't prepared for you to tell me to introduce myself. Well, I just always like assume everyone, like if I know somebody, everyone knows that person and I'm like, well, that might not be true. Probably not. I am Bookborn from the channel Bookborn and I talk about high fantasy. It's nice, we're talking about not high fantasy, but fantasy still. Although we were just talking about books that may or may not be low magic and this is not low magic. No, this is not low magic. This is high, we don't understand what kind of magic's being used and I'm not gonna explain it to you. Basically, but that could be, I feel like that's what, that's just Neil Gaiman's vibe. That's what I'm saying, that's all Gaiman. Yeah, all Gaiman's like that. He just thinks weird stuff happen. I was gonna say if you're, I don't know what order we should talk about things, but just in general, well, how many Gaiman books have you read now? For, let's see, Trigger Warning, Never Wear, Ocean at the End of the Lane and American Gods, I'm pretty sure. Okay, so quite a few. Are the books that I've read. So I think it's fair to say that if you're, not that you can't be a fan of two different kinds of thing, but if you specifically seek out books like Brandon Sanderson's books because you require hard, completely explained, completely like articulated magic systems where like, here are the rules, we follow those rules, like, you know, like very structured like that. If like, if you need that, then never ever read Neil Gaiman. Well, that's interesting because when I first read Never Wear, that was my first Gaiman book. I was deep in my, I mean, I'm always deep in Sanderson, but I really was and I just like did not like Never Wear. I didn't get it. Yes, that sounded wrong. Always deep in the Sanderson books. I did not really like Never Wear. I was like, nothing's explained. I don't really like Never Wear, but it's not cause things aren't explained. And maybe that's, I don't know. Maybe it's just Never Wear. But then like, I read Ocean at the end of the lane and I really liked it, but it was that, it was, you know, seven years later. I think I just wasn't in the spot there to, and now I really like all the different types. So, cause I read, let's see, Ocean and the Land and Tiger Warning just last year. So I've been doing a lot more Gaiman and I like him more with every book I read. And I was just saying, well, it's true that across the board we could say that he has a voice and he has a style. The things he writes are all vastly different from each other. All four of those were really different. The only thing that's the same is when you read it, his voice is like, oh, this is Gaiman. Yeah, just, I mean, all of them are the same and that you said that it's usually things that are unexplainable. Like that's the thread. Or if it is explainable, he chooses not to explain it. Yes, yes. But otherwise, all of his topics are just like so, so different, which I think makes me wanna read more because I feel like it's gonna give me everything. American Gods versus Stardust could not be. I'm gonna have to read Stardust. But you know what kind of thing Stardust is. Yes. But even like Ocean at the End of the Lane, which I really liked, American Gods is just like, so different. I think American Gods is like one of the most wildly different from, he's usually short and succinct and like to the point, it's not like a meandering. I like that he wasn't in this one. Yeah, but that's why like of all of his books, like this is the one where it's like this, one we both read, for those who don't know, this is the 10th anniversary edition, which is longer than the previous editions. And he said that this is his more, he feels like this is the true text, the stuff that wasn't cut out. When we talked about that, because we were like, are we reading the same edition? Like to be sure that we're like, actually reading the same book. What's gonna happen, yeah. But there's also multiple editions out there of Neverwhere. So like gaming keeps having books that just like is like, and he's not happy with it. Like let me think about, I mean with Neverwhere, and like this isn't a show about Neverwhere, but like one of the reasons that, that I think I don't like Neverwhere is because it was originally written for television. It wasn't a book made into TV. It was written for television and like the forward for it. He was like saying when they were, they kept taking stuff out of the story for the show. And he was like, it's okay, I'll put it back in the book. It's okay, I'll put it back in the book. So then like the authors preferred texts just like everything is back in it. But at the same time it gets written, like I feel like it's very episodic and I don't feel like it has like a lot of structure. And I don't feel like I really know the main character. Like if, and then when I was like, well, this feels like a TV show. Like that's how it was originally written. And I just, I don't think it works for me that well. And maybe that's why it didn't work for me. I can't really remember. It was a long time ago when I read that. But I did, is this, can we talk about spoilers? American Gods? Yeah, is this an American Gods spoiler or just mild? I just, do you know what's different? Maybe let's do like first like 10, 15 minutes like non-spoiler and then like just dive in. And dive in. Well, cause I was gonna, without maybe spoiler or anything, but like, do you know what's different? Cause I meant to look up what was added or taken away in the 10th anniversary. Do you know? Yeah, we need to look that up. I don't know what scenes, cause he said he added 10,000 words, I think is what it said. Which doesn't necessarily mean there's entire scenes that are different. Or just like many scenes might have gone on longer or like there might have been parts of the dialogue that like got taken out that he put back in, things like that. Yeah, I'm curious about that. But I don't know. Well, we should have done our homework. Cause I can't answer that question. Well, I meant to. It would be interesting. But I also feel like, I mean, if this is the author's preferred text, then like, if you're gonna read one, read that one with all of the words. I kept the, and it doesn't feel bloated cause I was wondering if it was like, or like, it's already such a bloated meandering book that what's another 10,000 words? I actually don't feel like it was that meandering. But I think it truly is because I read so many books with like a hundred viewpoints that to me it just felt like, oh yeah, this is normal. Well, also I don't know how much like people or that you had heard that it would be so that you'd be going into it being like, like when people a lot of times about first law, well, if they got told that first law is plotless, they'll be like, what are you talking about? There's lots of plot. But if you've never been told that before, then you pick a first law and you're like, that's cool and all, but where's the plot? Like expectation. That's true. And you had told me, oh, this is his most meandering book. So maybe I did go in with that expectation that I was going to be meandering. And then I was like, no, this is fine. I like it. Yeah, you did it. You did it for me. Oh yeah. Cause I mean, for anyone that has a problem, like so we said, if you have a problem with unexplained magic or just inexplicable things and don't read game and then if you have a problem with like more meandering, and meandering isn't necessarily bad, but cause if you want a really tightly plotted story that has like a very obvious three act structure and a very clear goal to this plot or whatever, like if that's what you need out of it, then don't read American Gods. Like game and might be for you in other circumstances, but not American Gods. Well, and I think though, part of that is maybe why it wanted you go though, because when you read this book, it's just so unusual, like so different. I just felt like the whole time I was reading it, this is so different than any book I've read before. And to me, that's a very big positive. Like I've read a lot of books in my lifetime, especially fantasy books. So to read a book that I feel like, oh, this is different. This is doing something new. Whether or not you normally like it, I think at least it's worth giving a chance. So it sounds like they're the additions that he made were more just like dispersed. Interesting. I wasn't gonna say like, I feel like I would know if there was like an entire scene that's like not, you know. Because you originally read the original first time? No, but I just feel like if there was like, as opposed to like a sprinkling throughout, if there was like it known to be a scene that's not in the original, that isn't the updated one. You would have heard about it? Yeah, that it would be like a thing people would like know. As opposed to just like general. You just more character development kind of stuff. Yeah, I don't either. Well, I don't mind plotless if something else makes up for it. This isn't a first law discussion, but like first law, it's not about the plot. So it's fine, but I read this book that we're not gonna talk about because I don't wanna get attacked again that I felt like had no character development and was plotless and I did not like that. Well, I feel like on a like a spectrum of plotlessness, it is like, there's this sort of golden zone where most people feel comfortable, but then there's like, we're edging to like no plot, which is where you find like first law in American gods, where you're like starting to lose that like more expected structure and more expected like foreshadowing and like seeing where this arc goes. And then there's like full on stream of consciousness books that are like very on my guard and they're like full on lack of plot. And then there's the other end, which is equally bad of the spectrum where there's books that are so cookie cutter and are so formulaic that they just like, or that don't focus on anything except the plot, don't have good characterization or anything. Like that is just as bad. And I don't feel like I've ever heard people criticize a book. Like people say, oh, it's plotless, but I'll never hear a book criticized for being like, it's too plot full. Well, I mean, yeah, I think, I mean, I think there's a lot of people who like plot full books. I mean, I think that's the problem. One thing you said about American gods when I was reading, you're like, you will never know where this book is going. And that was accurate till probably the last chapter. Like you literally like, I had no, no idea at any point in the book what was gonna happen next. And I don't know if I've ever read a book where not only did I not know what's happening next, but I also wasn't even guessing. Like usually I kind of have a running like, oh, I kind of think I know where this is going. This I was like, I'm just on for the ride in this car. I don't even know. Well, it's a road trip book, so it's a good attitude to have. And it feels like a road trip. I feel like, I mean, like with this book, I feel like that's a good attitude, but I also just tend to be my attitude. Like I am never the person to invite to a discussion. It's like predictions or something like that. Because I'm like, I just, I don't know. Like if I happen to accidentally, my mind is like, I think it's gonna be this, then like I might have made a prediction. But like I don't try to guess what's gonna happen. I would rather just like experience it. We, I don't think I actively guess, but there's some books like we had just both read a history of wild places. And both of us predicted a lot of stuff in that book. Well, I think with mystery is like straight up mystery is you can't help being like, who did it? Is it him? Is it her? Is it him? Is it her? Like, you know, even the mystery, like you want to solve the puzzle. But I mean, there is a mystery in here because the whole time you're like, why does anybody care about shadow? The whole time. There's not a mystery with like a specific question and a specific answer, i.e. body dead, who did the killing? Like that's a specific question as opposed to like, what is happening? It's my question. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I just felt like, I was trying to think like who is shadow and I did have some guesses for that, which we're all wrong, which is fine. I think we talked about this as well, that like in terms of having a sense for where this might be going, I feel like it could become, it's a help, but it could also become a hindrance to have a good knowledge of mythology. Because then if you're, if you know a lot of the mythology is drawing on, then you'll might recognize nods to it that might help you guess. But if you know too much about mythology, you'll be expecting it to follow, like you have set ideas about like, how these like figures from myth are connected. And then you'll be like, wow, he didn't do any of that. He did something completely different. But I think that's the point. Like that was one of the cooler parts was, I don't think this is really a spoiler, but it was the way Americans view these things. I'm just trying not to be spoilery. And so I think that gives a lot of, that gives a lot of leeway. It's the way Americans have viewed these gods. And then you know, at the end, we get to see maybe how the original form more was. Which I think is one of the most interesting things or most, because the gay man was probably not the first, but among the first to kind of do this thing of having deities show up and like the active participants in like a modern day setting. And like we have shows like Supernatural and like there's like a lot of things that Percy Jackson does that. But like the idea that there isn't just one, like I feel like all these other shows and books will be like, well, okay, so we're gonna have some guy. This is the Satan, if we're gonna say Supernatural. This is the God or whatever, you know? Exactly, versus like here where there's like, this is the American iteration of that God personified. And people have taken, have made them. People have taken them over. That was one of my favorite parts was reading the stories of the individuals. Yeah, coming to America, whoever I forget his name, who wrote those. Mr. Ibbis? Ibbis? Ibbis? For them? That's what I was gonna say. Yeah, all of the stories where you see how they took that God and brought them over the sea was just like, I mean that probably is one of the parts you could say was meandering and random and makes no sense but they're all my favorite parts. This is already a road trip book and then interspersed are little short stories that have, that seem like tangential to the story. So like if people say it's meandering, like I cannot deny that it is a feature not a bug though. It was, yeah, it was supporting the lore though of the story. And yeah, I don't know. I just really, it was just what I had said, I think in my review is, well, the negative about this book that is a personal negative is just like, it was gross a lot of the times. Like it was very graphic. I don't know if like I'll ever sleep again after reading that Billquist scene. Which we talked about. I think I told you when I first heard that they were adapting American Gods, my first question was like Billquist too? Yeah, also nothing was gross. But also just like they live, like the people who work in the morgue, also that was so gross. So I wish it wasn't so graphic. That's like a very personal thing though. So I would never knock a book for that. It's really just like on this reread, I mean, I don't know, graphic stuff. One, I don't think bothers me quite as much as it bothers you, but also like, I don't know, I guess I expect it slash no that gay men likes to write dark things. The thing that I didn't remember and just stuck out to me this time around was just how often every single conversation and every single joke and every single story came to be something sexual. I was like exhausted by it. Yes, that's what I'm saying. So like, I mean like the picking on it, like the taking body parts out, I was like, whatever, like, yeah, they're gods of the dead. Like, of course they're body parts. Oh, that part for sure belonged in the story. I just get grossed out by body stuff. So I was just kind of like getting squeamish. Like, I'm the woman who has fainted 75% of the time I get my blood drawn. I'm on the ground. So I just- I mean, I never look when they like do needles or blood drawing. I don't like that. Oh, not looking doesn't matter, it's all mental, baby. I just think that they're taking my blood and I'm down. As long as I don't see it, I'm good. So I think that's gross, but like, I think that was necessary for the story. I do think it was overly sexual per game and at least the other three stories I read didn't make everything so sexual. So I did- I just want, I think I forgot that it was that much like that because like, yeah, I wouldn't, I mean, not that he shies away from them. Like he has sexual content in his books, but like, it was just like every, it got to the point- It's a different flavor here because it was a lot of descriptions of like women in a way that he doesn't usually write about women, which I think was in the way- It was also just like every single character's sense of humor was like crude and sexual. Yes. And I was like, again. So that was weird. That was my one negative. It wasn't enough. I mean, I just kind of like skipped over some of the really gross scenes. I think it bothered me more because like to me, it seemed like very in keeping with like Mr. Wednesday's character that like, he is that kind of humor and he's that kind of personality and he's very crude. And I'm like, this goes with how he is and it's part of his characterization. But when like all these characters that were sometimes just side characters, just like they're only in it briefly and even they would always like turn the conversation to some like innuendo or sex joke. I was always just like, okay. Yeah, I felt, that felt weird. Cause I agree Wednesday, that was his persona. But yeah, so that was my one negative. And I was like- Like Mr. Nancy is like version of that. I was like, okay. Yeah, I mean like Mr. Nancy. It says Mr. Nancy. What was I gonna say though? Cause that was my one negative. Now I can't remember where I was going with that. Dang it. But yeah, even, I guess even, although shadow less than everyone else by comparison. Well, he has that one weird moment where he's talking about how pretty a 14 year old is gonna be when she grows up. And I thought that was a really weird part. But other than that, it was just, it was weird for Gaiman is all I'm saying is just because he doesn't usually write like that unless it's like for a specific purpose. And sometimes I just felt like it was purposeless. It almost makes me wonder, it's just his book about America and Americans that in his mind, Americans are just like non-stop crude sex jokes. And I'm like, God. Maybe. Maybe, you know, when was this written? Was the office really big, right? When this was written and he was like, is this what? At the same time. Cause like, I was actually talking about this with Jimmy and Alex about, cause we were talking about song of ice and fire and about how weirdly prudish like Americans are like violence all day every day. It's PG 13, but as soon as there is a boob, they're like, oh, it's rated R. I was talking about this so much because I'm very sensitive to violence. And so it bothers me so much that apparently Americans do not care about violence whatsoever because I care. But so then like, if it was his perception that America is like super sexual, I'd be like, it's really the opposite. America is very like prudish. We are. And then it's the opposite. Okay. Why can't I figure out when this was written? 2001. Does that sound right? When the book was written? Yeah. 2001. I don't know. I also don't know when the office came out but that's how it reads. Like, okay, they all just take grudges. But yeah, so that kind of surprised me a little bit but I didn't take anything off for that because I feel like that's one of those personal preference things that I don't usually knock a book for. It just surprised me. I didn't remember that. I don't know. I was gonna make a point and it's just gone. I can't remember what the point was gonna be. But you were talking about how violent it was. Well, it was really only that one descriptive body parts because otherwise, yeah, when that one person kills that one person, it was also really gross. So yeah, there was just some gross stuff in there that I just was kind of like, okay, we'll just skim this. But what I was gonna say is when I finished the book, it was just, I immediately knew it was something that was gonna stick with me. There's some books that stick with me more than others and it was like, okay, despite that this was kind of gross and normally I wouldn't like that, like there's just no way, I'm not gonna think about this book a lot, period. Like you finish it and it just feels like something you have to think about for whatever reason. Yeah, cause I also think that like for a book that is meandering with that comes at being a little more contemplative because a book that is like very like plotted, like you're just like, okay, what's next? What's next? What's next? Like that's where your head is at but it's like, you're just like journeying with and like vibing with and like it's spending more time just like. But I mean, I think there's some books who try to be that way and maybe they succeed when I'm in the book, but then after I can shut them and not think about them anymore. But this was one of those ones where I just like a few days after I kept being like, that is so interesting. Like, what do we make? What would be the gods we made today? And did he get it right? And... Well, I think the show went off the rails, but it was interesting when they were first producing it and him talking about how adapting a book to screen is always, you know, a matter of like what works, what doesn't, what you keep, what you don't keep, what things have to change for the medium of screen. But he was talking about how not just what changes for the medium of screen, but what changes because when this book was written was a different time. And so if you're gonna write it for today, what are the gods of today? What are the like modern technology gods like? It wouldn't be, this is a sort of time capsule of like what modernity was when he wrote this. And it was like, that's not true anymore. It has to be updated. The techno guy would be very different today, right? There could be a god of apps or something. There would be like, you know what I mean? Well, techno boy in the show is a lot more, like the vibe of like a crazy Instagram influencer. Yeah, and that makes sense. Cause that's who it would be. And it was also an interesting like to think about, you know, religious people often talk about like, one of the 10 commandments is have no other gods before me. And people a lot talk about today, like what are your gods? And it's like money or something else. And so even just when I was reading American gods thinking like, okay, what if this was just the gods I brought somewhere? Like what if I went somewhere? What gods am I bringing with me? And it's just like an interesting thought experiment just to be like, okay, what crappy gods am I bringing over to wherever I'm moving to because of why I want to do? It's like, there's a whole new, like the idea of humans infecting and littering and polluting any environment that they travel to, it takes on whole new meaning when it's like also like spiritually infecting the place that they go to. Yes. And the cool, you know, scene Wednesday as Odin in America versus like kind of the original Odin. I mean. Bitcoin deus the magnificent. Yeah, we should let Gaiman know next season. He said he put a point in there. So I think, yeah, I just like, I just really couldn't get over that concept because I have seen concept of like we make the gods or whatever belief makes the God but I have not seen, well, depending on where they are in the world, they take on the flavor of the culture there or the worship there. That was something I had never read before. And I don't know, really is a fascinating concept. Well, I think it sort of took it a step further than cause like stories will be like, oh, you know, what powers the deity is belief and sacrifice. Like that's where they draw their strength. You know, like that is why, you know, the Greek gods require sacrifice, why the Norse gods require, you know, worship. Like that's in feeding them somehow or they need it somehow, but the idea that not just that they feed on it, that like that's what created them in the first place. Yes. Yeah. And the whole idea of their chasing after that worship now that everyone has left, it's been, you know, centuries and seeing the other gods that are being fed. I don't know, that whole thing is so interesting and especially like you said, cause it's a time capsule. It's almost like the story gets to live outside itself cause you're like, oh, you know, tech boy would be as seen here either evolved or he is also the one who's now failing and is probably trying to kill the new gods that have been brought over. Which like is a point that the book talks about is how as much as the new gods are like, you know, shiny and new and confident in how much they are powerful because they are paid attention to unlike the old gods, they're also like, I think it's shadow that's like thinking that there's like a nervousness to them because they're like, but I have to keep up. I have to keep up and stay relevant. Whereas the old gods are like, we haven't been relevant in a very long time forever. Whatever, but the new gods are like, must stay relevant, must stay relevant, must stay relevant. Yeah. Which like is a weird commentary also like on the people that would be part of that sphere that create that sphere that also have the must stay relevant, must stay relevant like influencers, like, you know, the human side of that same attitude. And I was going to say, so I think the book talks about sort of us like worshiping at the altar of the television and giving our time to it, you know, like day in and day out, which is what gives it power. And like by phrasing in those terms, like that's why it's a God, you know, because like we worship at that altar. And like obviously nowadays this is the altar that we worship at, but same. I mean, I feel like while it's a time capsule in that sense, like it also time less because, okay, so like things have changed a little bit, but like not that much. It's just a smaller, more portable screen. He's not specific enough to make it seem dated. I just, there's never a point where I felt like it was dated. Like when he says we worship at television in my head, I was just thinking to our computer screen, you know what I mean? So I don't think it's dated is that shadow doesn't have a smartphone. Yeah, I mean, that is true. It would be easier to find shadow now. He would have to ditch the smartphone. But yeah, I just, the book was also very good at stressing me out. I always appreciate when I feel very anxious in a book and like it was surprising to me how from the very get go, like, I don't know. This might be like four chapters in when he's like, oh, I'm feeling bad, something bad's gonna happen. And I believed it immediately. And then his wife dies. Like it's all just like so stressful, which I think isn't a testament to Gaiman's writing because I think I had messaged you. I did, I said, because it was four chapters in and I was like, I care more about shadows than I did any of the characters in the entire last 450 page book I read in four chapters. I care more about what's happening. Well, I think that's one of Gaiman's strong suits is, so we talked about that he doesn't do structured magic. He leaves a lot of things unexplained. Like he's not really what he's doing here, but like at all times, and that's why his short stories work and that's why a lot of his books can be so short, is that he's really good at just like zeroing in on the vibe, yeah. It's just the vibe. You're like, as soon as you're there, like either the person's vibe or the place's vibe because like he can describe a person in one sentence and I'm like, I have a clear image in my head of who this person is, what makes them tick who they are and what they're like. How did you do that? Because like he just like zeroes in on something very specific and something relatable that you recognize immediately and you're like, I know what goes with that. I've seen it, I've done it, I've been there or I've seen it done or I've seen that person. Like, and he just like taps into it in a way where like that's why you feel connected or stressed about it because like he'll describe the emotional strain in a way that isn't something that's like epic and overdone. We were like, it's so sad or so dangerous or so it's more like the weirdly specific way you feel when you're threatened that he'll just mention it. And you're like, I know exactly what you're talking about. Oh, I know exactly what that feels like. Totally. And someone was saying over here, shadow jumps on Yahoo to research the gods. I mean, what about the Yahoo God who's dying to the Google God who's dying to the what, I mean, you can really get specific. The Bing God. The Bing God. Well, the Bing God never got anywhere. The Dogpile God, the Ask Jeev. I want Ask Jeev's perspective on it. I worshiped Ask Jeev's for a while. I contributed to the Ask Jeev's worship. But yeah, I agree that like, yes, he's gifted to find where the focus needs to be and leading you to that focus. Without, I mean, it's one thing that annoys me in books that I'll read sometimes is when I feel like an author is trying too hard to elicit an emotion in me. I don't know if that makes sense, but like, okay, just getting in trouble, whatever. When I read The Fault in Our Stars, this was like a decade ago, it annoyed me because the book felt like the whole purpose of the book was to elicit a... It's emotionally manipulative. Yes, it's emotionally manipulative, which some people love. Obviously, if you know me or follow my channel, that is not something I like. And I just remember feeling like, yes, this is really sad, but I feel like it's so calculated in its sadness. Well, it's like the book equivalent of those Sarah McLoughlin dog commercials. Dog commercials. I'm crying. And yeah, and so the thing I feel interested in, I think one of the reasons I like the emotion that game analysis sits in me is it never feels manipulative because it's more like I'm presenting a story and there are many options for how you could feel. Like when you read something like The Fault in Our Stars, there's really only one option for how you can feel because like it's kids dying of cancer. Like there's just like not a lot, puppies getting hurt in shelters. There's not a lot of like normal human emotions. This is like just got me thinking about like how many things that like from... If you look at, for budding young writers, what not to do and what you should always do and like what is the... What every book has to have, what you always want to avoid and like all those tips and tricks, which I always hate cause I'm like, that's just every book is different. If you do it right, then there's nothing wrong ever. But like how many things about American gods are an absolutely what not to do? Because like... Everything? Shadow himself. You both doesn't have a point. Doesn't mean shadow is like a Gary Stu reader insert who has almost no personality, motivation or agency until the end. His wife gets fridged immediately and has almost no agency in the story whatsoever. The book seems to have no plot because we don't know where any of it's going at any point. We interspersed seemingly meaningless and unconnected short stories all of the time. Like there's just like every... It's like Gaiman went on a mission to be like, what not to do? Great, I will prove that I can win in wards for like doing all of those things. I do like what Dairy's read it before. That's my favorite thing as well. I always like a book that doesn't tell me how to feel. And Gaiman never ever tells you how to feel. In fact, I think you could come out of the book with people feeling vastly different about a lot of different characters because he just presents the thing and then lets you feel. And it's something that's really missing from media. How the characters feel but not in a way that feels like and therefore that's how you must feel. Yes, yeah. And it's so interesting to talk about, you know his wife being fridged because you never, as someone who would usually hate that it just, it makes sense in the story almost. Like you're just like, oh no, this works. Like it's like you said. And again, I think because it's so unique and meandering and weird is why I won an award because usually, especially with the Hugo's and the more Hugo's I read the more I feel this way the Hugo really awards ideas more than anything else. And if you're gonna award an idea book, this is it. Yeah. And I think, I mean, so we talked about this, you know, when we both finished it and it was my second time and like American Gods is not my favorite game and book even though game is my favorite author. But I think- It's your favorite one. Oh, so at the end of the lane tied with graveyard book. You have to read graveyard book. I'll read graveyard book. Well, that one won a Hugo too, I think. So I'm reading all the Hugo's this year. I'll read that one. Don't worry about it. I didn't expect to feel feelings with like a children's book about a retelling of the jungle book but I cried at the end of the graveyard. The retelling of the jungle book? Yeah. I didn't know that, okay. That's why it's called the graveyard book. Let's go back to American Gods. Well, the graveyard book, how does that have to do with the jungle book? So instead of a boy that's like orphaned and being raised by animals in a jungle he's a boy that's orphaned, being raised by ghouls and demons and ghosts in a graveyard. I just didn't make the jungle connection. Okay, anyway. But so if you know the jungle book, like it's not like all of the time, like a one-to-one but you can be like, oh, so that one's kind of like the Bagheera, that's kind of like Sheer Khan. Like there's like, you can kind of recognize. Do the parallels. I hated jungle book as a child, so I probably will not know but that's a conversation for a different time. I think graveyard book is much better than the jungle book. It's a very game in thing to do to take the jungle book like, well, what if it was dead being faced with the graveyard? Works. Less fun. Yeah. But yeah, so like, I think that American gods, I compared it to an impressionist painting where like while you're reading it, it's like being really up close to an impressionist painting. So you can, you kind of miss the wood for the trees because you can only engage with one piece of it at a time linearly as you're reading through it. But it's where it becomes, I'm sorry if you can hear that. It becomes brilliant. What is that? Just traffic. Oh, okay. It becomes brilliant when you step back from it and you see the entire picture and it like comes gels together into like the brilliant hole that is American gods. But like while you're reading it, you can't appreciate the hole. If that makes sense. Yeah, and I kind of agree with that. I, ocean at the end of the line was my previous favorite but this overtook ocean for me. Just, I don't know. I just really loved it. Like I loved it more than I was expecting to love it but I, because I do kind of agree all the individual pieces, why I was reading it not necessarily like I couldn't be like, it's because this person is my favorite character. This was my favorite scene. It's just the way I feel about it as an entire picture. If your impression of painting was like a good explanation I just like, there's something about it that has affected me in a way that even though I loved ocean and ocean was a more like oceans the book I'm gonna recommend to more people. It's also a lot shorter. It's well, I mean, it's like a quarter of the size. I read that thing in like two days but it's also just like, it's a tighter narrative. More people I think that I know personally are gonna identify with that. And it is, I think, I always say it's more indicative of Gaiman's style in general. Way more like the other books I read. American Gods is like a concept. Like the people who want a concept and I am a sucker for a concept. American Gods is a mood unto itself. It is a mood unto itself. And certainly of all the heroes I've read so far it's my favorite. And it's the one that I finish and you're like, yes, I get it. Award the awards, give it what it needs. I don't know. I was considering how many books I pick up. It's like plastered with like, it won this and it was nominated for this. And I'm like, all right. Can't wait to be blown away. And I'm always like- No, it doesn't even say and you wouldn't even know. Because it doesn't need to because it's game legend. Well, like all those books where I'm like, okay, like blow me away. And then I'm like, was it a thin year? Was like nothing else good that year? Like why did this win? I think that about a lot of you guys and I'm getting in a lot of trouble for that. But so I'm so excited to review this one. My channel be like, look, I liked one. It was good. Apparently that's a pretty low bar for you though. Um, it's for it to be good. But yeah. High bar. I don't like anything. You know how many people were like, wow, you and Leanna was talking about something you guys like. I was saying that for you to say it's like your favorite of the hugos is like it's a low bar because you think they're all trash. That is a low bar. That is true. But no, this is, I mean, this will, it'll be hard pressed. I feel like to not be one of my favorite books of the year, which it is just January, but I just, it's one of those books that, books that make an impression on me are books that tend to make it into my top five. And it's just one of those books that has impressed me with something. I don't know. Just the way it gives you through the story, hearing the story of the people who come to America and what they do. And it's so interesting because it's like, they're all tragedies, but he doesn't write it in this like tragic way. Does that make sense? What I'm saying? It's very hands off. It's very like, here's what happened. Here's what happens. I'm not trying to like force you to feel all sad and it's not those, those tragic figures actually have agency and strength. And there's just something about the way that is, the way the humans lives are contrasted with these gods who feel that they are better than them, but are been created by these people. There was just like such an interesting dynamic there. I don't know. That is what made me fall in love with it. I mean, yeah. I've never read anything like American gods. And I think it's also interesting to think about how it compares to like Good Omens because he wrote that, you know, with Terry Pratchett. And it's like in some ways a very similar project, like on its surface, if you just hear the blurb, if you just hear the concept, but they could not be more different in their tone, their execution, their message, how you come away from it. You didn't like Good Omens, right? I do. I really like Good Omens. Oh, you really like it. Okay. For some reason, Good Omens is like one of my favorite books I think of all time. You're just listening to Alan stress about me giving guards, guards, three stars. Is that what it is? I mean, I also liked guards. Someone told me they didn't like Good Omens. I thought it was you. I'm glad it's not you because Good Omens is amazing. No, you're right. Cause they both deal with like gods and like biblical stuff. But they're just like, they are very different vibes. But speaking of Pratchett earlier, like when you were just talking about like just the setup, you know, that like belief is what not only powers them, but it generates them and like how you, the relationship to that and how you go somewhere and you bring that with you, et cetera, et cetera. But like it reminded me of Hogfather and of like how when this like epicenter of belief disappears and you have a surplus of belief and there too, belief is generating gods because like you just say a thing and there's just like so much extra belief in the air that, oh, now and that now that's a God because we have spare belief. So it gets to be one. And it's like the completely absurdist version of American gods. Well, and that's why I think it's so interesting because like there was a lot of people who were like, oh, well the concept of people creating the gods, that's not a new concept. And it's like true that concept is a lot of places but Gaiman does it so differently. Or like, I feel like it's not just that like he has that in there. He really has like something he wants to do with that. Like it's not like. It's not a side project. That is the project. That is the point. It's like, what do you be cool for the vibes of this book to have some gods walking around as opposed to like, I have something to say about this and it involves anthropomorphized gods. Well, and it's usually those books at least that I personally read focus more on the mortal aspect. Whereas this one is no one cares about any of the mortals in the book. This is the book about the gods. It's about American gods. It's about American gods. Someone asked if we have read the Anansi Boys. I was going to ask you if you I figured you hadn't, but everyone is telling me to read it now that I have to read it after American gods and I'm going to love it. Don't. I mean, I think it's very possible that you could like it but I don't feel like it's not one where I'm just like, if you love American gods, then you're going to love it. And like, I don't think that's true. They're really. People messaged me about it. I think I'm going to read Norse mythology next just because I own it. So it's just like right there. I might as well learn about the myth that you just saw bastardized. Yes, exactly. I mean, the audio book is read by Neil Gaiman, which I think is also, I mean, he reads a lot of his books and he's good at that. But no, I will not listen to an audio book. But it's like going to like an author reading. And plus it's, you know, retelling secret. Can I tell you a secret? I've gone to a lot of Brandon Sanderson signings because I'm a huge Sanderson fan and I'm always bored when he reads chapter. Neil Gaiman. There's a reason Brandon Sanderson doesn't record the audio books of his own books. But Neil Gaiman does. I don't, I don't like audio. I need you to accept this about me. I need everyone to just accept it. Two last stabs. One is that it's just a series of Norse stories, you know, just like his retelling of the actual Norse myth. Great. And my inner voice will be much better at telling those Norse stories. Wait, being though he has, if you listen to it, it's that vibe of like, you know, people as they once did through oral tradition listening to the stories of their own gods being told aloud. And then also it's just patently obvious. Like, if it's not obvious enough from the how he's written it, it's super obvious from how he reads it aloud, how disdainful he is of Thor and how much he prefers Loki. Well, I was gonna say, thank heavens I wasn't born in a time where oral histories were the only thing we had. I would say for the proper time when I could read something. I feel like Neil Gaiman thinks of himself as Loki and I think he thinks that Thor is useless and dumb. Well, I'm actually excited to be here. Very funny. Like the voice he does for Thor is the most, like your brain is made of mush and you are composed of nothing but muscle voice that you could imagine. I can't imagine why Gaiman would dislike someone like that. I'm like, tell me how you really feel. Man. Neil's voice is chocolate. Well, for anyone else who's a fan of audio, so not you, Hilary, but he recorded, he did this as a live performance and then they did like basically like the audio book version where he reads aloud the adult picture book, The Truth is a Cave in the Black Mountains and then he's accompanied by a string quartet that plays this really haunting music throughout. So he did that like, they like toured a bit with like that as a live performance and then the audio book now also has the string quartet backing him up as he reads The Truth is a Cave in the Black Mountains, which as a full experience, if you like flip through, because it's a picture book for adults. So it has like really dark images. So if you like listen to this music and his voice and you look at the pictures as you go, highly recommend. It just doesn't sound like something I would enjoy. It's like a movie, Hilary. You have pictures and sound. Can you ask me the last time I friggin' watched a movie? I don't even like watching movies. I just, I mean, yeah, I just never want to sit down and watch a movie. Yeah, I mean, I would be really curious what you think of Anansi Boys, but it is a very, very different book. And I usually tell people who either didn't or I don't think would like American Gods that they should read Anansi Boys instead because it is much more of like a traditionally focused plotted story. Damon is like, I'm Pratchett for me in that, just because we were talking about Pratchett, is that I'm eventually just gonna read all of his books. He's just one of those authors that I'm like, well, Damon's back with also isn't that long. It's not that long. I'm Pratchett's definitely longer, but they're all standalone. So they're one of those really easy things. I always, what I told Zach just the other day was like, when I pick up a game and I know it's gonna at least be four stars, it may be more, but I'm never gonna dislike it. So sometimes when I'm in the mood to just read something I know I'm gonna like, I can just go pick up a game and book because it's just, I'm gonna like it. Even if it's not my favorite, even if I'm not like head over heels like I was for American Gods, I'm gonna like enjoy the experience of reading whatever it is. I gave Stardust three stars. Okay, so you're telling me that I'm gonna read a three star game and we'll find out. A lot of people at their favorite. Do you regret reading it though? I mean, it's really, really short. And like I was, I liked the movie a lot. So I was always curious what the real story is like. We both just talked about history while places. I gave that a three stars, but I didn't regret reading it. It was enjoyable. It was just also kind of bad. You're dumb. It wasn't bad. I think Stardust is a better book than history of while places. And they both got three stars for me. Stardust like is executed, you know, competently. But I just like, I didn't, the way that I always like talked about it was that like, cause most of Gaiman's books, right? Take place in a more real world setting. And he brings the like inexplicable and magical and wondrous to the real world. And for a book that is entirely composed of the magical, it is entirely lacking in magical feeling. So like, I was like, this is, this is the one that's like a fairy tale with like Faye and like this is full on. And nope, I got nothing. Well, I'll have to, I'll get to it eventually. And then we can talk about it. But yeah, I am, he's just one of those authors. I don't have very many of them, but there's like, you know, four or five where I'm like, well, I'm just probably gonna read everything they write. And yeah, well, at least you don't get bored because like he, the style keeps changing. It's not like, oh, more of same. It'll always be to something different. Yeah. And even when you just compare the four, one of the only four books I've read, they're all like wildly different. You know, Gaiman himself says that he prefers Stardust the movie to his book because I did that when I was researching author's involvement in their adaptations for a data thing I was doing a while ago. He said that he thought it was better. So that's interesting. Like Gaiman has no problem being like, eh, I need this. Like you said, he always is doing new editions. The kid is still, he just doesn't really have a problem being like, eh, that wasn't as good as it could have been. Let's fix it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I feel like he's, yeah. I saw some like an author that, you know, they say you should never meet your heroes, right? And there's some people that like, when I, not that I've always met them, but like just, you know, that we have video and things you can kind of get to see what they're really like. And he's one of the few that like, I think, you know, not that it was, not that he's a bad impression when you only read his books, but like it only adds to the experience to see what he's really like. And as a person, I feel like my idolizing of him only increases the more I know about him as a person. I can't, I mean, I haven't read like a ton of interviews, but all the interviews I have read and all like the stuff in his books I've read, the impression I get from Gaiman is that he is just like, not one of those arrogant people who thinks a lot of himself. And they're, that's one of the traits I get so annoyed in. That's usually why I don't like to, like when I find out someone like thinks a lot of themselves, it's really hard for me to take their work seriously. Like you're not as amazing as you think. And he just never gives you that vibe. He's just always like, I'm just writing stuff. Well, he says that all the time. He's like, I get to tell makeup stories for a living. Like how lucky am I? Well, even like his, there's like a whole thing he wrote in Good Omens where he's like, I don't know. And Terry and I wrote this, we weren't Pratchett or Gaiman. We were just like two people right in a book. Like, I don't know. There's something about that attitude that I always appreciate. Like... Well, so the fact that he's clearly so talented. But to have that attitude when you're starting out is one thing, to have that attitude now after you've won so many awards and been such a best seller is, yeah. It's just, it's really like, I don't know. It's really nice. It's just really nice to have people who are just like, well, clearly you are extremely successful and extremely good at what you do. And you're just have not let a single bit of it go to your head. You're just like... So it's like unpopular opinion slash spicy talk. Though during the beginning of the pandemic or like not quite exactly the beginning, but like in 2020 when we were like quite in the height of it and there was all these like virtual Zoom events. Like was everyone doing that? So they did a virtual Zoom event with Gaiman and Schwab. And I know that like the IRL, they know each other. And I think it was just, like it wasn't specifically for any particular book release but like she was having Adelaide Rue come out very soon. So it was like kind of for that. And I know Schwab has a lot of fans but I was so annoyed slash impressed the whole time during that conversation because it's kind of like them interviewing each other and like kind of just chatting. And she just came off to be in that conversation as so like, I am the conduit through which this greatness can be delivered to you. And Gaiman an actual legend is like, I'll just tell stories. People keep reading them. That's great. Well, as long as we're being spicy. Sorry. I was like, if anyone could act like that has like who has the like, you know, I don't know the experience and the like the, yeah, the CV to back that up. It's Gaiman. If anyone can walk around and talk like they're a legend, it's Gaiman and he doesn't. Yeah, for being spicy, I think I was thinking of this even more because I recently read the golden compass. I'm going to, I've never read it. I think it goes down. I think the golden compass is really good. And then like, it gets perforated. Everyone's telling me that which I'm kind of bummed because I really liked the golden compass. It was like, I was like, I was like, I was a little bummed though. Like, I don't know if you've ever read children's book. You're like, man, I really wish I would have read this when I was 10. Like, I just know I would have loved it so much. And I still appreciate it. Obviously just a different vibe. Like, I would have like, anyway, that's a whole different thing. But I've been reading some Pullman interviews and talking to people about what Pullman has said. And just Pullman as a person, unfortunately has just taken down his work for me a little bit. Like, he was like insulting Tolkien and being like, well, I'm, you know, I just think I think things through more than Tolkien. And I'm like, look, the golden compass is good, but it's not Lord of the Rings. So I don't really know. Well, Tolkien can be accused of a lot of things but not thinking things through when he's invented an entire language and an entire world of like, sir. Just like, I mean, it was more about Tolkien's religion. Like, oh, well, Tolkien was religious and never questioned it. And like, it's through his books. And I'm like... Everyone's beliefs are in their books. So like, okay, this is why you will 100% agree with me about the His Dark Materials series because well, the first one has a position. It has some moments that are like, I see what the author is saying or going to be saying, but there's a really good story here and a really cool atmosphere and really cool vibe. And I like these characters and like, okay, like message aside, like this is a good story. And it gets progressively more and more author inserting opportunities to spread message, like throughout like the second one is like more that and the third one is straight up just that. I was like, did you forget to tell a story? Well, and that's actually truthfully why I'm reading it is because growing up, it was always pitted against Narnia. Narnia is the Christian propaganda and His Dark Materials is the atheist propaganda, blah, blah, blah. And I always find that to be an exaggeration. Like, first of all, is putting your opinions in your book really propaganda or is just everyone do that? I just, that's just my own perspective. My understanding is that even Tolkien was annoyed at C.S. Lewis for like being so overt in his messaging when he was like, your belief should be in there, but it shouldn't be so obvious. And I always laugh because I do think that propaganda probably has a bit of like insidiousness to it. And it's like, if you read Narnia, it's pretty obvious. You're not trying to trick anyone. It's an allegory. It's an allegory, yeah. So anyway, so I already know that it gets off the rails. It was interesting because people had said the whole series but in the Golden Compass, if I didn't know, I would not have thought anything of. Oh, you will. Oh, I know. Everyone's like, oh, just wait. But I'm just saying the Golden Compass by itself, clearly it's an anti-church stance, but it's not in the way that it's connected to the real world, in my opinion. It's connected only within its magical worlds. I think it's a little bit on, I mean, I don't know exactly what Philip Pullman thinks himself in terms of what's in the books, in terms of what's in his dark materials. It is not so much atheistic messaging as it is anti-organized religion. Yeah, and I've heard specifically anti-Catholic, perhaps it takes a lot. Catholicism is being like the big daddy of organized religion, organized life. So I'll be curious about that. I don't know how we got here. My point being. You're talking about authors who are humble and how gay men is. Gay men's humble and I just, there's something about that that really endears me to an author is all I'm saying because it was kind of a ruins it sometimes when you read an author that's so full of themselves. I do think that like, I guess there must be exceptions to this, but I think an author that is that full of themselves, their writing is gonna suffer for it because like it is that hubris that puts this like self-insert soap boxing into like the rest of his dark materials. And whereas an author like gay men doesn't think, isn't so full of himself as to think that whatever he has to say about like, you know, is like not gonna override everything else because he's got it all figured out, you know? Like he's. Well, just how we talked about how gay men is really, when you read his novels, you really have to decide for yourself how you feel. I think that is indicative of probably gay men having beliefs but not feeling that his beliefs are definitively correct or that everyone needs to share them. And I think that comes out. I was gonna say it's even more that like, you believe your own beliefs because like obviously you think that's right. That's why you believe it but the fact that you don't feel like you need to like push that on other people. Yeah. And I think that does come out. I think it goes with that humility of being like, well, I mean, I think this but I don't, it doesn't mean it's right. And you see that, and he explores so many things like that in his works that, I mean, thinking about ocean at the end of the length we both like that one. Like you can read that book and man, there's all sorts of interpretations for that. I mean, did it happen? Did it not happen? Is it a metaphor? It's much happier if you believe that it did happen. Yes. Yes, it is. And I usually prefer happy endings. So, so I think that's, you know what? Jimmy, honestly, we're not really even talking about the book. We just went on a 10 minute rant about the golden compass. So, I almost thought that he said that he can't say because of spoilers, but they were both wonderful. And I was like, is it spoilery reasons why we're wonderful? Oh, maybe, maybe. Please, I can't say. And what can we spoil now that he's here? I'm just gonna, he probably already jumped off and. But, but yeah, dang it. Now I'm you because I was gonna say something and then I got sidetracked by praise. I'm sorry. You know, because I'm amazing and I deserve praise everywhere that I go. So thanks for me. Oh, what about I asked the question that I said was the one thing that wasn't solved for me? Because I was for contacts, for people listening. I was, I messaged Liana being like, I'm very nervous. Yes, we'll talk about the coin. I just messaged you and saying, I'm very nervous that my questions aren't gonna be answered and I'm gonna be very annoyed at the end of this because we were getting to the end and I didn't know anything. But Gamin pulled through. Yes, I totally agree. But he answered everything. The only thing that was not answered is, why was it so bad that he took a coin? Like, why was this specific coin so bad? Who was it from? It was never answered. So after you asked that, cause like I never really questioned it cause like a lot of the game and stuff doesn't get explained so much like, well you say this coin is special so the coin is special. Like I don't really think about it. But there's like a lot of like reddit threads about people speculating. And so like this gets into like full on spoiler territory because the things that Mad Sweeney says about it and the way that it's described are, so there's two key things about the coin. One is that it has a son on it and two that he could not have given it to, he should not have been able to access it because it's only for royalty. And so the fact that he's able to access it when he shouldn't have been able to is, basically like in retrospect it's foreshadowing who Shadow really is because it shouldn't have been possible but it's because of who Shadow is. You know, he's the- Because he got it foreshadow. Yeah. And then because of who Shadow is again because of the God that he actually is, was the sun God. And so there's like- Shadow's the sun God? I looked up what God he was. I didn't realize it was part of the sun. So I missed that part. Okay, but then, but Shadow wasn't trying to kill him. So who was trying to kill him for accessing the coin? That I don't know. But I was just- Because I was thinking it was like a separate- Juju that he shouldn't have been able to. I think what it sounded like, again, it's not explained, but like the idea that like, this is something that like, he shouldn't have been able to access. So he has to pay it back, but he has, you know, it's like getting a debt that you should never have been able to, because you don't have the leverage with the capital to pay off that debt. So it's like that kind of situation for him, like what he takes and puts back, he's always able to take and put back, but he took something that's beyond the value that he's able to repay, and he shouldn't have even been able to get it. So he's in trouble with whatever cosmic scales. That's a good- I was wondering if like, because I mean, it's all types of gods. It doesn't have to be Norse gods only. So I was trying to think like, the Greek God of the sun, whose name is whatever. Helios? Helios, yeah. So I was wondering, I thought maybe he stole from a version of Helios. That was what I was wondering if like he had stolen from a version of that, but I liked the idea that he only was able to do it because of who Shadow was. That's an interesting connection. I don't know. I think the reason I was so concerned about that is I love that plotline in particular. Like- Well, so interestingly, that's also one of the biggest things that they changed in the show. Oh, really? Well, because they make, Matt Sweeney is not really in the book very much at all. Like he pops up- I like Matt Sweeney. No, no, he's much more in the show. Like they make him think- Oh, he's much more in the show, I see. Yeah, so like in the book, he like pops up, does this coin tricks, and that's when Shadow gets the coin, and then he pops up later again, and is like, I'll need the coin back, and then he dies. But in the show, like they go way into like his backstory, who he was before, how he got the coin in the first place, how that is his lucky coin, and that he's always had this lucky coin. Do you interpret it? Sorry, it's interrupt. Do you interpret it- I'm talking about a show. Matt Sweeney, that Matt Sweeney was the one that one chick took across in one of the stories? That's how the show plays it, so. Cause that's what I thought when I was reading it. So I'm just curious if you thought that. I don't remember who it is. Yeah, I don't remember her name, but yeah, the girl who like gets pregnant in- The girl who fools everybody. Yeah. The one who's always leaving food out for the fairies. For the fairies. Sorry, I can tell you about the show. But it being his lucky coin isn't as interesting in my opinion. Well, so that's where the show like, in addition to just like a lot more backstory and a lot more time spent on him now when he, so like after, we're always with shadow, right? So like in the book, well, meanwhile, after shadow and him, part after the first time they meet and he accidentally gives him that coin, then you follow him when he starts having like insanely bad luck, where like things keep going like ridiculously wrong for him and he can't figure out why. And then he realizes that he doesn't have that coin anymore. So he wants to get it back. And so then shadow does tell him, I don't have the coin. I give it, you know, Laura has it. So then there's this whole, like we follow Mad Sweeney and Laura together because he keeps trying to get her to give him the coin back and she's like, nope. So she gets to be her own character as well. Like she's not just like popping up to save shadow and then not being in it. Like Mad Sweeney and Laura have their whole subplot together. Well, yeah, Laura, I mean, had a little bit of that when she's like trying to work at the night gas station or whatever, we get to see a little bit of that. But cause I felt, you know, his moon coin was a lot more explained. Like that, that made a lot more sense to me. Yeah, I don't know. It was an interesting- Well, there was also some, and I wish I could remember, but that same thread that I was like looking at for like what the coin is or where it came from, they also like made a lot of, there's, okay. So what is his, it's to do like with his fortune and where like she says to him about the moon coin as well that liberty is like, they keep telling us that like, that lady liberty is what's on the coin versus that son is what's on the golden coin and how they each represent like, dang it. There's like a part. It's not, it's, it's the coin is from the moon but it has told us many times that it is the liberty dollar coin or whatever. Yeah. That it's liberty. And she tells him that it's already saved you like twice. But there's like a whole part where like it says something to him about, I wish I could remember, I'll find it and I'll link it below. But they're saying about like when he's told, I think it's the fortune that he gets when he's in the house on the rock and it's, or it might be something that somebody tells him but where liberty comes into it but it's also just like these American values. Oh, that's what it was. It's not something that they tell him that America is founded on the principle of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness and that the gold coin represents life and that the silver coin represents liberty. And then I forget what they argued for being the pursuit of happiness. Interesting. So the golden coin which was life clearly because of Laura and then liberty because it saved him from captivity. And very like tells us over and over again that it's liberty on the coin. Yes, how interesting. So what I want to know what the pursuit of happiness was. I'll find the thread and then link it to me. I want to know now. Cause I don't, I wonder what it was. That's super interesting. Was it another coin? I probably not. I thought I would have known if there was another coin. I think it was money still though or something like that. I don't remember. Super interesting. Yeah, I mean, that's my point. This is a book that just like you could talk about and have meanings upon meanings and definitely a book that if you reread you would pick up on so much. Like I always love a book that has a mystery that's solved at the end but a mystery that would be interesting to reread the book again knowing what you know. Well, again, so as we have, you know I've gone into spoiler territory. The fact that it's not, it's like the most epic planting and payoff that he tells him all these cons and he tells him about specifically the like, what is it, the bishop and the- Oh, yes. And the jewelry store. Yeah. And then he basically gives shadow. Like I think we, I've talked to like a lot with people just about how the most unsatisfying thrillers and mysteries are the ones where you're like I could never have guessed that because you never gave me the information versus the ones where like if it's a movie then you can go back and watch it. If it's a book you can go back and read it where you can be like, oh, and right there, like I missed it because like, of course I missed it but technically like right there they showed it to me or in a book you're like, oh, like I missed that meaning but you totally told me like X, Y and Z. And so like, yeah. Like basically Mr. Wednesday gave him the information. Gave him the- Well, I mean that's not the only moment. I mean there's, once I found out everything like looking back there were so much like so many other things just about how people treated him and even in the prison I was so mad when I figured that out cause I was like, I could, like that. I should have known something was up earlier about that guy in the prison. I can't remember the person. Lowkey Lysmith. Lowkey Lysmith, oh yeah. Just so annoying. So I do love that. Yeah, I feel like I think this is one of those times when it is better to read it because like on paper Lowkey Lysmith, the way it's spelled you might be like, okay, that's Lowkey but you also could easily not versus if you hear it out loud if you hear somebody say Lowkey Lysmith you're like, it's Lowkey. And I was one of those people who read it as Lowkey Lysmith and did not. I was like, it's just a weird prison name. So I was so mad at myself. I cannot- It's a good thing you'd never said it out loud cause you would have been like, what? I just said Lowkey. It just like it made me so, that was one that made me angry cause it was so stupidly obvious but I do think if you read it you just don't necessarily, I don't know think of it that way, but yeah. Well, it's also, I mean, there's sort of like a, I don't know if the, I don't think double blind, double bluff, I don't know. But the fact that like, okay so let's say you did piece it together let's say you, the name Lowkey you're like, that's going to come back and then shadow does recognize the chauffeur and you're like, oh shit, okay that means Lowkey is working for the other side. So that's the answer, right? We figured it out. Except that it's a double bluff because actually Lowkey is still working for Mr. Wednesday and that they're in it together. And this is, I'm sorry, this is kind of random but a small detail I really loved was that Mr. Wednesday had a glass eye, and then it was the typical patch when shadow goes wherever he goes. I forget, wherever he goes. Those small details, I don't know just the way he brought the American version of the gods to life. Those small details I just really enjoyed. Well, especially as soon as you're confronted with the ye olde Odin, you're like, yeah that's more the vibe. That's more what I pictured. And I really struggled with finding out that he was Odin. Like I was like, no, he's not. I was like, I didn't like, I just like I struggled to have the whole book and then you meet the other Odin and then all of a sudden I liked it way better because it was like, oh, this was American's Odin. Why didn't I figure out that this is America's Odin? I was gonna say like the gods in American gods are basically like when you go to Las Vegas and there's like Las Vegas, Paris and Las Vegas, Venice and Las Vegas or yeah, New York. So it's just the American version of all these things, the flashy, gauche, glitzy crew. And I needed to see the version that I think of to get that. And that's again, it's just like there's so many points of that in the book. How can I extract that backwards? So that, I know we mentioned Veishwaab earlier but she named a character Alucard and did not even realize that that was Dracula backwards. Well, and it's in Darker Shades of Magic. I've read that series. Yeah, but the fact that like she did that it wasn't even like. I remember being like that, why is she using Dracula? I was like, everyone knows that. I love a book that changes your mind while you're reading. It's Iceland. Thank you, Robert. It's kind of how I felt about last argument of kings in the first law. Originally the second was my least favorite but then after I finished the third I liked the second of 10 because I understood its place in the trilogy. And that's how I feel almost when you finish it. It's better than the other way around when you think you like something and then you see where it ends up going and you're like, well retrospectively, no, I hate it. No, no, no, no. And I always said that about first of all, I was like a second book. I was like, oh, it's not as good as the blade itself. But then once I read the third one I like retroactively was like, oh, I get it. I get it now. I made a whole video about that. But that's how I felt about American gods. It was like I finished it and anything that I was sort of critical about all of a sudden made sense and I understood where it was coming from. Wednesday is named after Odin. Wait, like Wednesday is named after Odin? It's Odin's day. That's why it's called Wednesday. I didn't know that. And Thursday is Thursday and Friday is Freya's day. Okay. Well, I was wondering still why his name was Mr. Wednesday. That's why. Now you know. I told you, Leanna, I messaged you saying I didn't know enough about Norse mythology to read this book. You're like, you don't need to know about it. I did. You see, I did. If I had known that. Yup. I know he says it in the show and I think he says it in the book where he's like, it is my day so you can call me Mr. Wednesday. Well, he said it's my day and I was like, I don't understand. He's Odin. You know what, Gaiman? I needed you to spell it out for the dunces in the back. I mean, you can do it. He doesn't. I mean. But the thing is, that's why I love it too though because he put stuff like that in there and if you get it, you get it. But also you don't have to get it. Like it didn't ruin the book. And I didn't have to get it. You learned that he was Odin anyway. Like it's not like you couldn't have read this book without knowing that Wednesday. I was Mr. Wednesday. And now it makes sense. I would like to petition that we go back to those. Odin's Day, Thor's Day. I like Thor's Day because it sounds like you're saying Thursday with a really weird accent. Thor's Day. The way that Gaiman says anything that's said by Thor in Norse mythology. It sounds like that. So, see, if I had known more about Norse mythology, I think it would have been a more, even a more interesting one. You don't need to. You should definitely read with your kids, Odin the Frost Giants. It's really cute. Is that a Gaiman? Yeah. It's a picture book. I'll have to get it. We have instructions. Do you have that one by Gaiman? I don't, but I'm aware of it. But then you'll get your Norse mythology also from Odin the Frost Giants. Okay, I'll go look at that one. Odin the Frost Giants. Not like I need any more children's books, but we'll go buy some more. Get the one illustrated by Chris Riddell. Is there a different one? Someone else illustrated it in America. It's not as good. Okay, so I have to go get the UK version. I think that, I don't even think you have, I think they sell both now in America. I'm not sure. Okay. I don't think it's hard to get the Chris Riddell one. Yeah, his children's books are very, I really like them, or at least the one I have instructions. Also fortunately the milk. Thanks guys. If you get fortunately the milk, also the version that's illustrated by Chris Riddell, fortunately the milk is like, the dad goes to the shops to get milk because they're out for cereal in the morning and he takes forever to come back. And they're like, he finally comes home with the milk and they're like, oh my God, where have you been? It took you so long to get milk. And he's like, you won't believe what happened to me. And so this whole book is like the crazy adventures he went on because of the milk. Because like every single scrape he gets into, there's like a dragon and pirates and time travel, but fortunately the milk gets them out of like every scrape. My kids will like a story like that. Well, what's funny is Chris Riddell, when he illustrated it, he illustrated the dad to look like Neil Gaiman. Yeah, I would say fortunately the milk sounds like just like something. In fact, sorry. I'm gonna write these down because the thing is I'm not gonna remember. Fortunately the milk, what was the other one called? Odd and the Frost Giants. I really, guys, I cannot tell you how much I don't need more children's books. But these are Gaiman's. So these are for the whole family. So that's fine. We counted them the other day. And I'm not gonna say the number because I'm actually legitimately embarrassed to say it on in a live space that's public, but yeah, we need to work on it. The problem is he also has a lot of illustrated books that are for adults. And it's kind of hard to tell sometimes which switch. Well, I was born because I was gonna get one. And I wonder if it was the one you just said. And I was like, oh, this one looks really fun. And then the comments were like, do not get this for your children. I bought this for my child. It might have been. They were like, this has extremely disturbing images and my kids were extremely afraid. So like, especially, so like Chris Riddell illustrates a lot of it. And I think in the UK, pretty much everything. And he did illustrate never wear for adults as well. But sleeper in the spindle, it looks very similar. Like if you have them both, they're like thin picture books the same as Odd and the Frost Giants and the style of his art, you know, is similar. But sleeper in the spindle is for adults. Yeah. And Odd of the Frost Giants is for kids. I was, I was warmed. There's no shame how to have a strict yet. He tweeted one time cause he went into, he likes when he's like passing a bookshop he'll stop by and he'll ask if they have anything of his then he'll sign it. But he went into a bookshop where, because he does write a lot of children's literature, they had decided that everything he writes is for children and had put all of his books in the children's section. And he was like, don't let your child read Ocean at the end of the lane, no good can come from this. I mean, don't let your child read American Gods, okay? But he specifically called out Ocean cause it's also about a little boy. So you'd be forgiven for picking it up and thinking it and then being like, oh no, oh no. Ocean is definitely worse because a kid would be bored by American Gods soon enough that they wouldn't read it but Ocean would scar them for life. For sure. You say that but you don't know how many I have. So yeah, this person I think found out the hard way and luckily they left a review that enough people have clicked as helpful that is at the top now that people will not make that mistake at least on Amazon. Yeah, I actually think it's really cool that he writes kids books. I always like to say that he writes for adults as if they were children and for children as if they were adults. Like the content of his books, it doesn't really change actually that much. It's more like, there's like adult content and then it's like longer and wordier but like the types of stories that he tells they're not that different between adults and children. Well, I mean, instructions is just like gay men it makes no sense really and it's magical and my kids love it. So like. When he writes for adults it doesn't make any more sense. What's I'm saying? I'm saying American Gods makes no sense and it's magical. Like that's it's. Never wear any of his books. Never wear makes no sense and it's magical. But like Coraline is so dark, it's scary. I'm excited actually to read that one too. I mean, that's the thing is like what's also interesting to say like so many of his books have become so famous like the graveyard book and Coraline especially is like the Halloween book. I feel like. I was talking, who was I talking to? Is it Klaus? And you never even heard of Coraline. I was like, I would if I've met a lot of people who have seen the movie had no idea it was based on a book by Neil Gaiman which I'm like, whatever. Which is me for a while. I mean, I haven't seen the movie. Have you ever heard of it? Like not the movie or the book? Like. That seems crazy to me. But I mean, it is Klaus so. Also fair. Um, yeah, I am. Coraline was directed by that one guy who directs all the freaky things, right? Well, it was produced by Leica Studios. They do all the. I'm thinking of a different movie. Stop Motion. Oh, I thought it was done by. Tim Burton? Yes. Is it not? Oh, okay. I thought it was. But it's the, because it's Stop Motion. So like, it looks kind of similar to like Nightmare for Christmas or Corpse Bride. But it's Leica Studios. Neither of those. Leica Studios also did a Kubo in the Two Strings, which is Immaculate. Neverwhere is on ATF for me. I don't know that. Sorry, what's ATF mean? All-time favorite. I got it. I didn't get it either. I was like. You know, Neverwhere. So my sister's favorite author is Gaiman, which Leia and I have talked about. We're sisters. Yeah, we're sisters. You're my sister and it's you. My other sister who's less important and not on this live. She's her favorite author's Gaiman and I think one of her favorites is Neverwhere, because that's the one she sent me to read. And just for me, it didn't end up working. So that's interesting. But I think everyone has. It's interesting that like, you can have so many Gaiman fans and they all want like a different part. I just always find that. Because he has such variety. So I always whenever I'm like, trying to get somebody to read Gaiman or just generally talking about, should you read Gaiman or whatever? I just, I find it very hard to believe that there's anyone out there that wouldn't have at least one Gaiman thing that they didn't like. I could like. Yeah, because there's some authors that I would say the fandom is usually pretty, not like perfectly, but in general, they're like, these are the better works. These are the ones we don't like quite as much. And I just, I don't see that in Gaiman stand them. They're just like, it's so divided. Just the Gaiman is like, the quality is always at a 10. It's just preferences being different. Because they're all so different. He just, yeah, he just writes really different stuff. And it's just unusual. Cause I only just last year started Sandman. Cause for years I was like, I'm a fake fan cause I've never read Sandman. But I mean, that is all. But there's plenty of people who are like Gaiman fans who like are predominantly Sandman fans. Hold on a second. My audio cut out. Hello. We can hear you. Okay, I can hear you now. My headphones ran out of battery. And then it didn't switch. So I'm sorry. For years you were a fake fan because of Sandman. What happened? You didn't want to read Sandman? Well, I just, I don't ever read graphic novels, but. Oh. So like I was, I finally last year when they audible released the dramatization with like the full cast, then I listened while I read. Cause I was like, that'll be like, fun experience. And it, I mean, it is amazing. But now I can finally also appreciate that Sandman also is amazing. And Dary, you're right about Pratchett. Cause that's so true. Pratchett, people like wildly disagree on where you should start with Discworld. And I wonder if that's why Gaiman and Pratchett were friends. I wonder if, you know, cause they feel like. What seems like. But I think it's also no accident that like, even though the books themselves and the way that those ideas are handled is so wildly different. That like, I mean, Hogfather and American Gods are playing with very similar ideas just in so like completely different ways. So I just feel like, and I, that's why I think Good Omens really works because like the blending of their styles really comes together to create something that if you're more of a Pratchett fan or you're more of a Gaiman fan, this like, is that meeting in the middle where like it's still all those great ideas that both guys are like into. And then like, it's just enough for each of those styles to please everybody. Yeah, and it's just the perfect cause like, Pratchett is full silly. I mean, silly feels like the wrong word just because he's such an excellent writer. I just think Pratchett's a genius. It's more satirical. But yeah, it's just so 100, like you have a meter of satire and it's just pushed straight over. And Gaiman more is more like horror and scary and creepy and that's pushed over. So then when you get that satire and creepy together is like, what is born is good omens, which is like equal part funny and horrifying, but somehow works together. But also heartwarming. But also, yes, strangely heartwarming. My favorite, you guys haven't read Good Omens. My favorite part of reading that interview with Neil Gaiman is how there are scenes in that book where they both swear the other person wrote them. Yes, I always talk about that. And they're like, you wrote that bit, right, Terry? No, I think you wrote that, Neil. Like it was somehow birthed amorphously from either of them. Like the idea became a sentient being. Well, like American gods or like the, oh God of hangovers. It's just the book came out of their belief in it. Yes, it did. I really sometimes think maybe it was. They believed in the book and so then it was. Yeah, I'm not really a graphic novel person myself, but maybe I can, when I'm desperate and I'm done with all this other Gaiman stuff, I will. It's like for you, Gaiman, but then also like I am an audio book fan. And like, I mean, it's, cause it was not just, I mean, it's a full dramatization with like, the idea is like. I shall not be doing that though. I will just read the graphic novel. But the idea is that like you could, it's just like, it's a dramatization. So like you could just listen to it and not look at it at all. So like through sound effects, they're conveying the stuff that like you're not seeing. Yeah, that's interesting. It's impressive, like between seasons one and seasons two, cause like the first, like. Wait, this is a season? They call it that because like, there's multiple of the graphic novels, but so they did the first three volumes in one audio book and then the next three volumes. And so I think they called it season one and season two cause they're doing like, you know, groupings. But like the people they've gotten to be voices is, it's crazy, like the list of like recognizable names. I mean, James McAvoy is Morpheus. And then you just have like a who's who of British actors, not all British, but mainly British actors playing all of the other random parts. Like there's Michael Sheen and Andy Serkis and Reggie Jean Page and a lot of others that I'm forgetting, but many, many, many actors. I mean, I'm sure it's really good. You know what, maybe, maybe for you when I'm done with all other gamons in 10 years. Well, they're also, Netflix is adapting like a live action version of Sandman. Yeah, I have to read it first though. I agree, Shauna, that Gamin is fairy tale. Which is why Stardust is such a let down cause it's actually a proper fairy tale and it feels the least fairy tale-esque. Which one? Stardust. Oh, Stardust, Stardust. Oh yeah, I haven't read that one. Yeah, I don't know. It's just, this really did it for me when we talk about American gods. So we haven't talked yet about our favorite quote in the entire book. Oh yeah, do you want to read it? You marked it. Oh, you marked it, perfect. Sure. So I was like, if you would like to read it, I'll hold it up so you can read it. I'm going to let you read it, yeah? I'll call her. This is the, I guess it's like, cause in the epilogue has multiple chapters. So like the first chapter of the epilogue. The epilogue, I, you know what, that was my beef game and don't do that. I hate when any book does that. If it's an epilogue, it needs to be like five pages or under. But that's where we get this quote. So apparently the epilogue did work. So this is from the notebooks of Mr. Ibis. One describes a tale best by telling the tale. You see, the way one describes a story to oneself or to the world is by telling the story. It is a balancing act and it is a dream. The more accurate the map, the more it resembles the territory. The more accurate, the most accurate map possible would be the territory. And thus would be perfectly accurate and perfectly useless. The tale is the map, which is the territory. You must remember this. Yeah, it's an excellent quote. Especially as book reviewers who are trying to draw maps of tales. Yeah, and well, it was also just, it was separately, yes, as book reviewers who we do that, but it was also somehow describing the book itself because it told so many tales of people coming to America and of these gods we create. Ultimately, it's just one version of the story. So that was like an interesting concept. And yeah, like as a book reviewer, you're trying to tell everyone and be useful beyond the story, but really you just need to read the story, but reading the story is useless. I don't know. I couldn't stop thinking about it. It's like a circular. It's a, it was very similar to something that is in the name of the wind where he's explaining naming, like the magic of naming. And it's like, you know, you have the word for the thing, the name is the thing itself. But how do you explain it? It's like trying to draw a pencil, a picture of a pencil using the pencil on itself. Like you can't do it. Yeah, I don't remember that part. It's been a hot minute since I read Name of the Wind, but I did like all their naming stuff in that book. Yeah, that's, it's an excellent quote. There was a lot of very interesting quotes. Unfortunately, I just never marked them. I think they're interesting and then I move on. So that's not great. Next live show, I'll be better at that when we read the question. I didn't mark anything. I just like, I remembered that being towards the end. And I was like, wait, where was it? Well, it's also easy to find because it's the opening of the chapter. Of the chapter. Yeah, it's just that was, I just always love it when an author has a way of putting a quote that describes the entire book at the end. There's a few books that will do that where it's very self-aware, but also still poetic. Yeah, I feel like there's a way to do it and a way to not do it because I feel like that would be on the list of things not to do. Like don't put the title of your book in the book and like don't, you know, like, don't call yourself out and don't, you know, whatever, but, or unless you're gay men and then you can do literally anything. The title of the movie or a book in the movie in the book is 99% of the time bad. That's the name of the movie. Yes, I'm thinking exactly, that's a family guy clip. Okay, yeah. That's what I think of every freaking time. I was just watching. I mean, unless the name is something that's like a thing that they would say all the time, you know, but if it's like a, yeah. Yes, that can be fine. I was watching a movie the other day and I was like, really? You're really gonna just like say the name of your movie. What kind of surprised me when I would never wear is that never wear isn't ever in the book. It's London below. Oh, I don't even remember that. But I mean, they talk about American gods a lot on this but that, it's totally works. It's totally fine. But yes, gay men is able to write sentences that give you a second pause just to appreciate the words. I agree. I mean, I feel like that's the, that's why I always say that like gay men is my favorite writer. Not all of his books are my favorite books but he is my favorite writer because without fail, when I pick up gay men, I'm like just like the words he chooses, I'm always just like, wow. Wow. How did you do that? Yeah. Sorry, I was laughing at what Shauna said about wanting to put those books together because they're buddies. The real question is where do you put good omens under Pratchett or under gay men? Where do you file it? That's the question. I organize by size and shape of books. So it's with the other books that are the same shape and size. Yeah, this is an off topic but right now because I only buy what I read, my shelves have to constantly be in flux because I'm getting one book at a time. So books, my book sales has to change a lot in flux but I don't have enough books right now to fill my shelves so it doesn't make sense to put them in alphabetical order. And I wouldn't put them in alphabetical order anyway. But then do I want them in alphabetical order? It's complicated but at one, at some point though, I do want every book by one author in the same spot. I don't even do that. Whether or not it's alphabetical. You don't even do that. I have like all of my Neil Gaiman mass market paperbacks together within the mass market paperback section. And I have all of my Neil Gaiman like large hard covers together in the part where I have my large hard covers. But like I don't have the mass markets with the hard covers together. Like that, but I accept you as who you are. And if you like to put books by authors in different locations, I will accept it. It's by size first. Hey, first of all, someone saying only I would organize books by alphabetical, excuse me, bookstores and libraries. Well, I figured you meant by author alphabetically. Yes, by author. I feel like that's very common by author alphabetically. You could just organize by entirely by the book's names being alphabetical. That is also chaotic evil. So if you order your books by the title, that is chaotic evil and I will stand by that. What you are doing, Lana, is neutral. I would say true neutral at best. That's fine. It's not evil, but title. I will say I do have my stand-alones in our main room are divided by color, which I know some people also find to be evil. But because... Rainbow bookshelves? Because I've read them all and they're my stand-alones mostly. I feel like it's not that evil. I mean, I do it by size because it's practical. So it's the most efficient way to use a space that I have is to have certain shelves be shorter and then that's where those littler books go so that I have space for the bigger ones. So it'll be wasting space if my big bookshelf has to have a little mass market paperback because it's the same author. Yeah, that's true. And then I think the reason I didn't buy color out in our main room is like, when you don't have enough books to fill an entire shelf, you have to have them grouped in some other way to make it aesthetically pleasing. So when you have full bookshelves, it looks good almost no matter how they're organized, but when bookshelves are not full, they don't. Anyway, I'm sorry. So when you have knickknacks. Well, that's when you have knickknacks. I'm not a huge knickknack person. With some Lord of the Rings cups up there. No, I drink out of those. I use them. I'm practical about them. Maybe some. Come on, I don't like, I don't. All right, no knickknacks, I'm so sorry. You know, what you could do is just buy books that you're not immediately going to read. I don't like to do that either. It's stressful. I will say the one thing that annoys me though is that every one of my Neil Gaiman books. That's so organized. Yeah, see, books would be, I do want to eventually do that. Genre and author would be amazing. I mean, if I had the space to do that, but I just don't. Here's the thing. Every Gaiman, I own four Gaiman books and each one is from a different edition. So like, you know how he has like, so my Neverwear is like the colors. You know how like he has like this edition with like the colors, so my Neverwear is green and there's like a ton of his books that are like all the different colors. You know what I'm talking about? Yeah, it has the title like and like a little drawing of like a little thing. Yes. So there's those editions, that's my Neverwear. Then there's these like modern all white ones, which is my American Gods. And then trigger warnings, like the original weird trigger warning. And then Ocean at the end of the lane is the same thing. It's like all blue on the side. So it's like, I need to trade them in and just get like all of these editions or something. I mean, I have like, I mean I have multiple editions of most of his books, but I think my favorite ones, the only thing I don't like about it is I don't like mass market paperback size. It's just a such an annoyingly tiny size, but I love these like retro covers that all of the mass markets have. Like they're my absolute favorite like cover design. So I have them all. And I'm just mad that they're tiny. Yeah. I don't have a ton of mass markets. I don't know the whole. This has nothing to do. You know who my American God is that I want to create that I'm going to worship into creation is the God that has one size for all books. So there is a hardback size and there is a paperback size. And that is it. That's it. So all books, there's two sizes of books. And I would like to worship that into existence and see what they can do for me. I would even accept like a hardback, a paperback and a mass market paperback standard. That is acceptable, but not as acceptable. Because, you know, for the budget friendly, tiny books that are cheap, gotta remember the people that don't care. Yeah. We got to remember, as I look at my bookshelf full of books, those people, budget people, who don't just throw money. Alan prefers mass market paperbacks because he's crazy. I actually like mass market. Oh, I'm one of the people who likes mass market too. I like mass market. I am dismayed by how often mass markets have my favorite cover designs because I hate, this is like, you can't read it and not crack the spine. You absolutely can read a mass market. It's super comfortable to read it. No, but you can't do it without cracking the spine. Yeah, but a cracked spine is a loved spine. When I looked at a cracked spine, it means I loved the book. But like, I have the first law mass markets that have like the character art on them. I have, I'm the, a horse in books. The mass markets are way prettier. The Neil Gaiman books, the mass markets are way prettier. I mean, actually, I'm gonna, I actually don't mind. This size is probably, I guess if I had to choose a book, I actually like this size, which is slightly bigger than a mass market. Like all the UK paperbacks. Like, this thing, you're telling me this giant book is more nice to read than a mass market. This giant thing. It's so floppy and it stays open in your lap without you having to touch it. It's amazing. Versus like this, which is just nice and compact and easy and easy to read. But the big one, it flops open and stays open. Hard to disagree. I love a floppy book. No, not none of the floppy books. You want to take forever. It's fine. I know everyone hates mass markets. So I'm perfectly fine to be the villain in this case. Yes, I also, we all agree that floppy is ideal. Well, I'm the villain. It's fine. I also don't care. I've literally, I have bought books because like the floppiness was so deeply satisfying to me that I was like, I don't know that I'm ever gonna read this, but I need it. Yeah, I am. I also don't care about eating food while I read my books. Like I'm just, I'm chaotic evil in that way. It's fine. Well, I'll do that, but never like spaghetti with like tomato sauce or anything like that. Cause I'm like, this will get in the book. I mean, but I like, I'm just saying there's a few books that have food stains. I have a few. Well, that's why, oh my God. I got so stressed out cause I always, you know, take the dust jacket off to read a hardcover, which someone told me that it had never occurred to them to do that. And I was like, Well, ironically, a dust jacket is to protect the book, but everyone's been that way for a long time. But, but anyway, so like the hard covers that are like completely white that like the naked book is completely white. I'm like, I can't touch this. My hands will never be clean enough for this. So they always look dirty. It does not matter how hard you try. They look gross. Even if they don't look dirty, I'm just going to think that they will today. This is the day they get dirty. I'm, I keep getting this off track. I was going to say unpopular opinion. Everyone was like oohing and eyeing and drooling over those editions, like what you have of American gods. And I hate those editions. Okay. Let's talk about it. I had a conversation with Zach about this. I said, are you, there's someone in this book that's credited with cover art. And all of those editions have the most like a child. Like, have you seen Coraline? It's like two jagged squigglys that I guess are the eyes. Oh, I, we were in the bookstore and I said, you're telling, you're giving someone a separate person a name for the covers design and the cover art. I thought this was a stock image. Don't tell me this is a cover art. There was this like big hoopla about, oh, Gaiman's getting all new covers with these like beautiful like watercolor art. And I was like, oh, excited. And then I had pulled up all the images and I was like, no, I can do better. I think people in my center of interpreting that I like to love this version. I think it's the most boring art ever. What I like is their spines. So like, I would love the other art with these spines. I just love when they're stacked up in the bookstore with these spines, it looks so good. But this is the most boring cover art on the, it's not, it's not cover art. The fact that this had a person that was claimed. Even if it had been kind of like a Rorschach type thing that gives you an impression of what the book is gonna be like, but it's not, it's whatever that is. Exactly, what is it? I'm like, I guess it's the blood that is in the book. It looks a little bit like bacon to me. Like because I actually like like the ocean at the end of the lane cover I have, I actually quite like a lot. I don't, like the boring editions are usually never my favorite. Occasionally they will be, but yeah, it's just red lines. That's my point. The Coraline one is seriously like, it doesn't even have like this like ongoing, I guess satisfying, I don't, in some ways, I feel like I could imagine someone saying that the art on American Gods is satisfying, but the Coraline, I was like, literally a three year old in finger painting could do better than this Coraline cover. Is there's one where it's just like two red lines. Which one is that? Where it's like literally just two red lines. You're like, okay. I don't remember which one it is, but I know I remember there is one like that. No, Coraline is like, like someone was told to draw to like circles for eyes and they like couldn't do it. Bacon is definitely an American God, I agree Matt. Not for either me or Liana. Liana's vegan and I'm not really a bacon fan. Here's like one thing I will say about this cover though. You know how famous you have to be to have a cover that says nothing about the inside of the book. That does nothing to advertise anything about the book. And doesn't have anywhere on it that it won awards or that other like blurb reviews from other authors. He doesn't, he's not even trying to sell his books. He's like, I sell enough. I don't, you give me the most boring cover with no. I mean, yes, it's just, yeah, I don't necessarily get it, but I will say they match. So I understand like as a set. I mean, if we're going to go with simple and match, like those solid color ones, like what you're talking about that have like just like the little image of like a non-C boys is just they can all read book and it just has like a spider on it. Like that's relevant and it's still nice and it all matches. But again, even with those books, I feel like them as a whole are better than the individual. Like when you see all those lined up, it looks really great. When you see all these looked lined up, it looks really great. But individually, I wouldn't say any of those covers really do much for me. It is something more relevant than whatever that is. It took more skill to draw that spider on a non-C boys than this. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. Your cover is definitely the most evocative in terms of- Well, it's very retro and like the cover for in this version for a non-C boys is very cool. Oh, I have to go look that one up. I've only seen this cover for a non-C boys. I mean, I like them all. Like I just, they have said, I honestly can stare at the cover art because there's like this old retro style cover art isn't like, I mean, the kind that you had right there and a lot of more newer covers, it's just sort of like big swatches of color or like an impression of something versus art like this where like, there's like a ton of tiny little detail everywhere. So like, you can just like stare at it. It's a painting about the book. It's specific to the book. Have you seen that meme recently about, I think it's like the literary fiction covers right now. Have you seen that where it's like, literally just splotches of color in the shape of the face? And there's like 30 books, I swear, that like follow that. It's kind of interesting. And even that is better than those Neil Gaiman watercolor editions. Yeah, okay. Well, we can't argue with that. I am, again, though. No one can say this wasn't a deep dive into the substance of this book. We're even talking about the cover art. This one is it pretty. It's not good. Yeah, I think American Gods is also a book that you could know a lot about going in and it would probably still be interesting and surprising. Like, which I always find very interesting when books can do that as well. Like, I wouldn't say like that's, someone gets spoiled about who Shadow is. I wouldn't say that it would ruin the book in any way. It might help a bit. Cause you kind of like, at least I know where this is going kind of. Yeah. And I also think that there's a version where somebody is so knowledgeable about Norse mythology that they catch the clues. And so that's, that's super interesting. Or they're so knowledgeable about mythology that they can't handle them being so bastardized. That's true. But I mean, again, that's the point of it, right? It's the American version, so. But I also think it's one of those books that like, knowing the, when you hear the pitch for it, the conceit of it, I don't think you really are ready for what it is. Because it's an accurate description to say that, oh, this is a story in which like, you know, everybody who's come to America has brought their gods with them. And so the gods are all actually here in America now. Like, okay, I'm not, I was, that description, I am not picturing what this book actually is. But that is an accurate description of that book. Even, I didn't even know that though, going into American gods. I knew nothing, which is always my preference. I was also just realizing like, there's only two sentences on the back of this book about what it's about. Like literally, Damon's not even trying to sell his books at this point. I don't think he was ever trying to sell them. He leaves that to other people. Even Sparrow's can't, I agree. And Damon's something like that. I think it's cause Damon's all like, you know, he's kind of all about the journey and the ideas, you know, so. Journey before destination. Journey before destination. You're welcome. How much did it hurt you to say that? Oh, not at all. It'll hurt me if you try to get me to say that it's like the best line ever written. I mean, I love that in context of the book and where it goes in the future. But people acting like that is a new idea. That's how I feel. I'm so pleased to hear you say that. I'm always like, wow, how deep. No, I think most fans love it in context of the character and where it goes in the future. But there are a few people I know who are like, that's one of the deepest things I've ever read. I'm like, have you gone to like a home goods? Because like, there's house signs. Did I send you that like picture on Instagram? I think that he like took a picture at home goods where there's like every single cup and saucer and casserole dish that has written on it. The thing that is supposed to go in it. So like a gravy boat that says gravy. You sent me that. It's like, this is getting out of hand. We talk about how impractical that is. It's so obnoxious. But yeah, I mean, obviously, you know, I love Stormlight. So that's not even shade. But I do get, I do laugh sometimes with people I have never heard that before. And I'm like, well, okay. There's a lot of iterations of that. But anyway. I just told them to live long and prosper. Yeah, it's all the same. Anyway, that said though, just quickly. For as many things as there are in American gods that I want to underline, that I want to think about, that I want to ruminate on or that stick out to me is amazing. There aren't really any like succinct quotable quotes that like I'd be like, oh yeah, put that on a bookmark or whatever. I can't think of any. It's because it's the whole idea of what has happened in every scene. It's not there. Yeah. The only part that I could ever like quote like that was the part with the raven. Yeah, well, and I mean, that's a very quotable part, but not for a different reason. I actually, I'd buy that on a bookmark. So that's to be honest. That could be your next merch, Lanna and your store. Yeah, other than that quote you read about the nature of stories and math. Which like, that's long and unwieldy. You can't just be like journey for destination. Like that's easy. That's easy. There's nothing like that in there. Yeah, and again, it's kind of how you said about how your experience after or how you think of American gods is better than your individual experience reading it. Can kind of be said for the same way. Oh, but the best line of Marco Padrevin, you know it's right because it's the only game in town. That is a good, that's a good line. I remember that. That whole scene is a very good scene. Again though, it's part of the wider scene of understanding where Wednesday and Shadow are and this whole story behind it. I don't know. I mean, even Abercrombie has a lot more quotable quotes that are like, and by quotable I mean, because there's a lot that I'd want to quote for American gods, but that kind of like the quick fits on a pretty art version. Yeah, and I think that's the whole different skill. And I think it's something Gaiman's not chasing at all. And, you know, authors like Abercrombie, even, well like, and also just like even Sanderson has so many more of those because he's writing like books that are meant to be hopeful. So those kind of books always have like those kind of lines. Abercrombie's writing humorous books. So they're always going to have good lines. But I feel like the thing is, so like the way I keep talking about how American gods is the one that's unlike all the other gamons because it's this long unwieldy thing and the most like succinctly quotable quote we have is a paragraph long intro to an epilogue. And like, I feel like there's a lot more quotable succinct quotes in like, in Ocean at the End of the Lane, in Coraline, there's, I remember there's one about in Ocean at the End of the Lane about adults follow paths but children wander or children explore or something. And I was like, yeah, you nailed it. In like what, how many words is that to nail the difference between what it is to be an adult and what it is to be a child? Yeah, and there was some stuff in Trigger Warning if I remember correctly, but those are short stories. It's a little different. I was just thinking about... I don't think that was my first time. It wasn't our first time. I think I might've brought him up first actually. Cause I talked about... Oh friends, you don't shame me for bringing up Abercrombie, you bring him up first. I bring him up first. I know my audience. There's a story in Trigger Warning, the thing about Cassandra. That one's so creepy. Is that what it's called? That reminds me of Gaiman in general. He just writes creepy stuff that messes with you. And that's kind of what American Gods are. All of Trigger Warning is that. That's why it's called that. That's true. You know, for whatever reason, that was the one that was like, yeah, American Gods is just like weird and creepy and it messes with you and the end. Announcing boys is very different. Well, yeah. I'll get to it eventually. Whatever, after March. I think, I mean, there's a lot in it to like, obviously, I mean, it's Gaiman. And I think you would like it. But if you go into it, expecting it to be like American Gods. Well, I'm glad you said that because everyone kept saying to read it after this. So I was starting to think it was like more American Gods. I mean, it's often, sometimes it's sold as a sequel to American Gods and other times it's not, Gaiman says he doesn't write sequels. And I don't think if you asked him, he'd say it's not. Cause you could read Announcing Boys and not have read American Gods. But it is about the sons of Mr. Nancy. So like in that sense, it's, I guess a sequel. That's what you know, Gaiman really isn't trying to sell books because he's like, you want a sequel to this bestselling novel? Screw you. I'm going to just write this other thing. Pretty much. But so like in that sense, like it is tangentially, like it is taking place in a universe in which Gods are anthropomorphized. But like it takes place in the UK. It doesn't even take place in America. No, interesting. Yeah, I did like his thing at the end of American Gods or might've been at the beginning. I don't know. I read all the stuff where he's like, you might be wondering why you think I know how to write American Gods, but this is what I wanted to write. And I like didn't even think about it. I was like, yeah, you are just from the UK being like, here's American Gods. Which is like, I think we did talk about how like you kind of, it almost takes the outsider. This is how I found them. Oh, sorry. All of his covers are listed in the back. This is what I was talking about. They're just like stripes. And you can't really see, oh, there you go. There's a coffee mug on Stardust, like a coffee ring, never wears a caterpillar, and Nancy Boyz has two stripes. It's pretty bad. It's so bad. Oh, it kills me about that. Look at smoke and mirrors. It's literally like the same cover as American Gods. Yeah, but where's Coraline? Cause that still makes me the most. Coraline's on the back. I saw it's like two grandma lipstick marks. Look, here's another, the graveyard book. It's really hard to do this backwards. There's like some of the books covers are the exact same. But that also what kills me about that is that like having like a boring watercolor cover for an adult book. Okay, whatever. But for Coraline and graveyard book are kids books. What kid is going to want that cover? That's probably not the cover being sold in the kids section. No, but it's just, it's stupid. Why? Why is there a boy? I'm going to buy that version just to spite you when I read it. You're the one who's going to have to have it on your shelf. Well, it'll match this one. It'll look good on the side. That is the only thing that will come out of that. Maybe, oh, you should have your kids like to face it with like finger paint to make it actually look cool. Ask them to do it an alternative cover that I can put on top of it. It would actually be good. Oh my gosh. I feel bad. I hope this cover artist never listens to us. I hope they do. And I hope they do better. Because it was. Also, that cover artist spent precisely five minutes doing those covers and is laughing all the way to the bank. So. I bet there are people out there who love them. There are people out here who love these. They're, and you know, I think that I, I'm very minimalistic if you guys ever came into my house, which none of you will. But if you did. It's, I have a very, and that's my style. So I just feel like if I don't feel like the minimalist cover is really working. I was like, when I, when I saw, I think on Instagram that this was the one that you had, I was like, oh God, she likes those covers. You see, there's, there's a question. You thought I might like them. Yeah, it's just, it's just an interesting choice. Thank you, man. Is that to fund Hillary getting a better cover for American gods? What am I naming? Name one, Hillary. What am I naming? Name one, what? I miss, what did I say? Tell me. I think you said something. I said something. Name one. Oh, maybe a mental miscovers that you like, that are not this. Oh, I mean, minimalist, the best capital America she'll own her wall. I mean. But only that. That's it. That's the thing on the wall. Well, this was bought specifically to make my YouTube background. She used to people like, she likes that cover. I don't personally know them. Well, I'm trying to remember who, cause I remember multiple people telling me that he was getting new covers and being excited for it. And then also saying like, have you seen, they're so pretty. And I was excited to Google it. And I was like, I was like, I must be not finding the thing. This was not be the one. It can't be this. You know, actually I think it's outside, but like the 10,000 doors of January, which was a book I really like, it's just like flowers on the cover. And I'm kind of a sucker for that sometimes. You seem like a person who just not pretty flowers. Yeah, I'm basic sometimes. Like, look, I'm basic. It's fine. Like there's, there's covers that work. But I mean, like there's also, I mean, you like flowers sometimes. Like, look at that. That's a whole vibe. You know what I mean? And it's pretty minimal, but it works with the- I'm sure I like books with flowers. Vibes, it's the vibe. And you see it about Susanna Clark's books. Like this, this is the, it looks like a history book and it is a history book. So, you know, I enjoy it. I like the cover for the hard cover of my cousin, Rachel that has flowers on it. I don't know what my cousin, I've never heard about that book. By Daphne Jemaurier? Outside. By Daphne Jemaurier? No, I don't know that. Why don't I have not heard of that? The author of Rebecca? I mean, I've heard of that. I don't know that with the author of Rebecca. I haven't read Rebecca. It's really good. But the cover or the edition that I have of- Yeah, I mean, that's the thing. What Dary's saying is like- That's the edition I have. Okay, well, that's really pretty. I'd like that. Like this, well, I guess what I'm saying is like, this just like as a book is fine. It's just like, if this were the cover of a poetry book, for example, I could see myself- If I was even one of his short story collections, I'd be like, yeah, well, how do you encapsulate the vibe of all of those stories? All of the short stories. Like a poetry collection. It's just for what American gods is, it feels strange to have such a like literary fiction sort of cover on it. There is, okay. You know, there's that famous story where you go into the modern art museum, well, we should say contemporary. Modern is a very specific time in history. The Contemporary Art Museum. And there's a red block on the wall and a blue block and a green block. And oh my gosh, I could have done it myself. But like you didn't. And maybe they had a statement to make. So, you know, sometimes art that doesn't make sense, but looks easy. Anyway, this isn't that though, I don't think. But I just, I just want to say, just because something is easy to do, there is something about being first to do something. I mean, honestly, if there was an entirely white cover with nothing on it, I would be like, that's a statement about the content of this book because it's, you know, the gods are what we bring to the table and what we make. And like, I'd be like, this is, it's, you know, arguably the perfect cover because it's saying something. I don't know what that is saying. The lifeblood of the gods smearing down over the ages. Sure. I mean, but I will say, just looking at the other covers that are all the same, I don't actually think much thought. I'm not sure the person who did this cover read the books or talked to the author at all about the content of them. So I will. Or is an artist. I will give you that, since they're mostly an cover. I almost feel like it's like an act of sabotage. Like I want, this is an emperor's new clothes situation where I'm like, everyone was like, yeah, it's great art. And we get it. And really that, that artist was just trying to stick it to Gamin because they hate him. Yeah, maybe that is what it is. We all have to pretend we like it. I don't know. I feel like I only like 50% of cover art anyway. This is the truth. Does Gamin have anything to say about these covers? I don't think Gamin cares. Gamin doesn't want to sell a book. He's just off writing. I mean, I think if you like, if you had him privately, like if he wasn't like a public speaking engagement, you know, like if you were just like having, you know, a pint with Gamin because you're friends with him and you're like, do you like your new covers? He'd probably be like, no. I mean, his authors have very little control over their covers, period. I doubt he had any say in this. They're like, we're releasing a new edition. He's probably like, okay. Like what's wrong with the old edition? Yeah. It usually covers. Well, the thing of it too is that like, it's not like, okay, sometimes books don't get it a great cover art, but like they re-released all of them, one of the most famous authors books in these brand new editions and made a big deal out of it. Well. The current American got is minimalism, is beautiful for the sake of beauty without content. And making money out of nothing. This cover, being nothing, is a statement about the new gods we have created. So what does that say for all of the other books that aren't with that story? This is the book that they decided to base it on. So it's just only the themes of American gods and all the covers. So what about Coraline's Smoochie Kiss Eyes? It's matching American gods because everything has to be a matching set now. You know how like before, this is relevant to me just because I'm children. And they're printed in America. Yes. And like, see, before like children's rooms got to be just like places where children got to have fun. And then Pinterest got invented and now children's rooms have to be alters to design and not for children. Well, kitchens used to be where the food got cooked, but now kitchens are the centerpiece of your entertaining. Centerpiece of your entertaining? Yeah, I guess that is also true. I don't want to be called out there. I'm gonna talk about like white kitchens. Like I have an all white kitchen because I'm like... Oh, no, just that like people are very concerned about the aesthetic of a kitchen when like that used to be a space that no one would get to see unless they were cooking. No one went into. Yeah. And I think that's for a lot of spaces now. And I think that's the internet. So this, we could just say that this desire towards minimalistic looking good on a shelf with other books versus saying something unique about the content or the child or the kitchen that is the author. I mean, the artist was really making a deep commentary on, you know, American current American style gods. Definitely. Mic drop. I've done my best. I'm glad we solved it. I've done my best. I'm glad you finally convinced yourself that purchasing that edition is fine. I, someone sent this to me. I didn't buy it. Don't blame them. Because I gave me a pass. I'll allow it. Thank you. You can exchange it for store credit and buy a nice one. I mean, like I said, it's gonna, I only see the spine and I like the spine and I will stand by that. So, and all my game books, I think are the same size. Unless it's the dust jacket that you've taken off to read the book, you don't get to see the cover art while you're reading anyway. Yeah. You never see it. So, but I do think covers can give a vibe because I will say I love the ocean at the end of the lane cover because it doesn't happen in the book, but it's a perfect vibe. Like, yes, this is, this delivers on the content. Even the original, I mean, the old American Gods cover that's like a part of the road and there's like the lightning. That's a perfect depiction of what the book is gonna be like. Is there one with like a neon sign that says American Gods on it? That's for the show. And I think they might have done like a tie-in cover, you know, that's like the show. I think that's one of the covers I've seen, but you're probably right. It's just like the show cover. Well, now I can't like it because I don't like show covers on books. What's, I mean, but there, I feel like that's the difference. Like if a show cover just looks like the poster of the show or the movie, then it's bad. But some of them are like the better ones, still not ideal are the ones where like they take something from the show. Like I think the shadow and bone and Six of Crows tie-in covers are pretty nice because like they've used like, like images from the show for these covers, but it doesn't just look like the poster for shadow and bone. Yeah, I never, I always say I never am doing that from an elitist perspective. Usually what I don't like is I don't usually just like people on my covers, like photo realistic people. I feel like don't usually look good. That's why I like these retro covers because like they have people, but in this like very like, you know, drawing. I like artsy people. And so that's, that's my problem with show books. It's just they're like our shows. It's just like, we're going to plaster the actor's faces. You know, like it just doesn't look good. Like I actually even like the Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell. Two covers, one that had them on it, like a picture of the actors and I didn't like that. But there was one that was like greenish, like woods and like had the blackbird on it that was like for the show. And I liked that well enough. Yeah, it just, I didn't like the two of them just sitting there. And you're just like, it's an advertisement for a show. I don't know. Yeah, no, not that. Yeah, I agree. So in conclusion. We have a lot of space today. Just a lot. I don't know how we talked this long about the look of the book. And I didn't mention the Folio Society edition of it, even once. Is that a good edition? Well, you saw it. I did. I sent you pictures of the art that's in it. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, I did like that a lot. I mean, I meant to send you pictures of the art as we went because it's spoilery. And then I did it. You did tell me that and you sent me too. You're welcome. I'll send you the rest tonight. So, I mean, I guess if you have that edition, who cares if you have a crappy watercolor paper back? That's true. I'll probably, this is a book I can see myself buying another edition up since I like it so much. Like Folio Society? Probably. Yeah. Cause I love it. So, yes, anything that we didn't talk about, probably a lot, but. Probably a lot, but if you haven't read it, I'm guessing you're not here because you wouldn't want to be spoiled. But you're just chaotic, chaotic individual. Chaotic and maybe just don't care. We did say, even if you know the end, it doesn't really spoil the book. I actually don't even think we said that many spoilers. That would make sense out of context. Like I don't, unless you have a really good memory, I don't think you'd be able to. But yeah, I'm very curious as I read more game and how they're gonna stack up against each other. Yeah. Well, you've already read one of my two favorites, so I'll be curious to see what you think of Graveyard. Cause right now it's American Gods, Ocean at the End of the Lane, Trigger Warning, and then Neverware. But I will say Neverware is a distant because I really quite liked Trigger Warning. I like Neverware better than Stardust, but I don't like either that much. Pretty, it's hard sometimes to rank books that I just generally liked. That's what I said, like with game and like any, every game and book that I've read, I've been like, that was quality. I do not regret reading it. It was well-written, but like Stardust and Neverware, I always just kind of feel very lukewarm about. Yeah. No, but I'm excited. And I'm excited more because other than American Gods, those books usually are like very short and easy to read in like a day or two. So. But you know, it doesn't write series. So at least it's not like 10 books that are all this long. No, and it's true. And like I said, I mean, for someone who reads a lot of high fantasy, you know, a 500-page book, that's true. Which I think, is that a spoiler or is it just like life? It's like Snapple Facts. We're giving you six Snapple Facts. It's enriching their reading experience. They won't be a plebe like me and be like, why is it all Mr. Wednesday? I don't remember where I learned, like I've known it for a long time, but I'm like, was it like, was it Snapple? Like, I don't know where I learned that. I just, the only thing I remember is like learning that July and August were after like Julius Caesar and Augustus and now they've ruined the entire calendar. So that sept and oct. And deck. Don't work anymore. Yep, it's really aggravating. Yep, anyway. American Gods. I feel like so like when things are unexplained or make no sense in books, that always makes the world feel more real to me. Because if you had a story in which you had a calendar like ours, where some of it is named after Norse gods and some of it is named after Roman leaders, and then you have the Latin language, but it's being misused in the names of the months, like that's how the world be. So when your world kind of doesn't make sense sometimes, like like that, this feels very real to me. All of the type fantasy writers who are trying to make their world building perfect. You made it make too much sense. People don't make sense. They need to make it messier. So like London below making absolutely no sense. Never wear them. Like, yeah, check that out. All right, but next month. Next month we're doing Norwegian Wood. By Harakumir Kami. This is my first Murakami, but what have you read by Murakami? Oh, it's your first one. I have read The Strange Library, A Wild Sheep Chase, his book of short stories collections that I can never remember the title of. And the night, the night job or something like that. Night watch, the night. I don't know why I can never remember his. I'm just going to make a Game of Thrones joke. You wouldn't get it. I want to get it. I'm sorry, I'm the worst. I've been wearing a Game of Thrones. So I'm curious because like I am, Murakami can be a hit or a miss, and I haven't, we both haven't read the wood. That's one of his most famous ones, but I actually haven't read. Yes, he has so many famous books. I game it. A Wild Sheep Chase was my very favorite. It's the first one I ever read by him. And his books are all very different as well. Very magical realism. So I don't know. I know nothing about Norwegian wood. I'm pretty excited. He does sometimes have some sexist stuff in there, which is something you just kind of have to accept with Murakami, something I didn't notice as a teen reading Wild Sheep Chase. And then going back to Murakami, like what generation of writer is he? I think those books are mostly like in the 80s, I want to say. 80s or 90s. He's a little older than Gaiman. Yes. From my belief, I could be completely wrong about that. But Wild Sheep Chase in particular is all about identity. So reading that as like a 17-year-old, I mean something if you ever read that book, there is nothing is named in that book. There is not a single character name. No one has a name. And it's part of the theme of identity. So he does stuff like that where he just plays, the strange library is kind of that way where you think it's one book and then the last page of the book gives you information that completely changes everything else. So it's like a German sentence. Yeah. So I'm just like very curious like what Norwegian word is going to be about. I don't know, we might hate it. We might like, I have no idea. I've heard really, really good things about it. That's why I bought it in the first place. He's 73. Yeah, so he's 73. Okay, so he is much older. I had a feeling he was. And so I think it's one of those things where like... Is he still currently publishing? Because the idea is, I don't know if he's had a book recently. You know what I'm saying? I don't even know anything. I love Mayor Kahn. I don't even know anything. It's finally a book I've read. Sorry, you're welcome. Yeah, he's someone I want to eventually get through to. Again, like Gaiman, he... And from what I've heard anyway, even his sequels aren't really sequel-y. They're kind of like standoffs. I know there is like a technical sequel to The Wild Sheep Chase, but it's like completely different. Like Anansi Boys in American? Yeah, I think so. So it's really easy to just put it off because you can kind of read him whenever. But I'm really excited about that. I think like American Gods, his books just have a lot to talk about usually. There's a lot of like what is happening and you can interpret it in different ways. I mean, it's a name that like, you know, similar to Gaiman. Like you just, even if you've never read anything by, then like you are, you know, you've heard the name. And you've heard some of his books. So yeah, I'm excited to talk about that. And then in March, we'll be reading each other's TBRs. So, it's gonna be fun. I don't know, I'm excited about it. So... I'm just, I keep stressing that because I know you don't read books or don't buy books until you've read them. But I'm just like, are there's, I have yours. And there's just that little bit of time or what if you just open to such, read this? I mean, I currently, because people are sending me books, I currently have about 12 books on a separate bookshelf. I should have sent you a picture of that. Oh, calamity. But six of them are Discworld. So I don't think you bought a Discworld book. So we're good on that. What are the other six? The other, let's see. Two of them are Book of the Month books, which I doubt in general, you would send me anything that was on Book of the Month. Oh yeah, Book of the Month is up today. Did you pick a book? Well, I'm not gonna pick a book because I have too many unread books. I have 12 unread books and I'm so stressed about it. You never stopped me. So stressed about it. I don't know. If there's a good one, if there's a really good one, but I had just gotten Firekeeper's data from Book of the Month, even though that's YA, just because everyone's freaking out about it. I was like, I gotta see what this is about. So I got two of those. I got a couple of self-published, so you're not gonna send me any of those self-publish. I do have Norse gods. I do own Norse gods. Did you buy me Norse gods? Norse mythology? Oh, sorry, Norse mythology. Yeah, by Gaiman. No, I didn't think you told me that you were gonna read that, so. Yeah, so I already own that one. I don't know. What else, what's up there? And then, like, Beowulf. Not sending you back. I'm not super worried. How should I send you Beowulf? A Star Wars book I just bought myself. Like, I'm not super worried for. I'll send you Crime and Penishment in the original Russian. Yeah, please don't. I'm also nervous because one of the books I bought you, you just recently mentioned on Instagram that you wanted to read, and I remember telling you, don't buy anything else, Leanna. So you better not have bought anything recently. What did I mention on you to read? I'm not gonna tell you because I want it to be a surprise, but. No, but I'm trying to think that I don't really think I bought it. Because I was positive you didn't own it. How long ago did I say that I wanted to read this? Time means nothing to me. It could have been this week. It could have been last week, I don't know. Was it like, you know, like the last few days or was it like a few weeks ago? I think it was like last week. And it might have been like on a YouTube, I don't know. It was somewhere you made a comment about it and I was like really stressed, like no more buying until after I give you my books. You have to wait, no more buying for two weeks. I mean, I'll try. Mostly, honestly, most of my book buying is just I learned that like the UK has a different cover for this. And I'm like, oh, I need that one too. Or whatever, so like most and most of my book buying has been that. You have something like 165 physical TBR. I probably have more than that. I have 12. So I just wanna talk about how our experience is buying books is not the same. Yeah. Well, okay. So like if it's like a really good price on something that I do know I want to read, I'm like, well, may as well get it now. For two weeks. Or if it's not allowed to buy another book. 14 days. In fact, not even 14 days. It's like 10 days. Oh, so I'm gonna give you an extra book because I accidentally bought a book that I already have. So you can have it. I'm not gonna be able to read five books in one month. I think you've already read this or whatever, but it's like a nice addition. That's why I was like, oh, I need to get this. And then I was like, I already have this addition. Yeah, I'm actually, I'm just really excited for that because I'm like, I already had messaged you that there's like a 95% chance you'll, not 90%. There's a 65% chance you'll hate every book I'm buying you. I mean, it's always safer to assume that I'll hate something and then you can be pleasantly surprised on the show. I love rolling the dice on that. Like, yeah, you'll probably hate this. That's fine. Yeah, the books that I have picked for you, I fluctuate between being like, I've nailed it. She's gonna love it. I've got this and being like, she's gonna hate it. She's gonna hate it. It's gonna be terrible. Friendship over. There is a part of me though that thinks the live show would be so interesting if we come together and like, we hated every book we gave each other. So we're gonna talk about that today. Oh, I mean, I think it would be arguably more interesting because you would have a variety of opinion on display. It wouldn't be like an echo chamber of like, it's fantastic, we agree. It's great because it's perfect. Like having completely polar opposite opinions, you'd have like, here's why people might like it and here's why other people clearly do not. Yeah. And I think there's a 90% chance you will hate at least one of the books. Out of four books, there is one book you will hate which will be nice. Why are you giving it to me? No, no, no, I'm not, I don't know which book. I'm just saying the ability of like, there being a book. I thought you meant that like, one of these books you already know that this one specifically I'm gonna hate and like, why would you pick it? I mean, so I wrapped all the books and wrote like, you know, like the blind book things. Yeah, I was gonna just do sticky notes. I wasn't gonna wrap it, but okay. Something you have to know, I love, love wrapping. I love wrapping things. So that's just my own thing. But, and I wrote so much. There is one book that I wrote. And I said, I'm pretty sure you're gonna hate this book, but this is my TBR, so I'm making you read it. So that's the book that's most likely, you're gonna just like, but I actually sincerely think you will like the other three books I picked. Like I picked them thinking about stuff that you have liked in the past. So just hopefully I'm not wrong about it. I mean, that's what I did with you as well. So we'll see. And it was tough because there was, there's one slot, you know, of the four that has been the one that I've been most, like the other three I like locked in. I was like, yes, for sure, these three. And then the fourth one, there was like five different books that I was like, one of these five will be the fourth slot. And I go like, for weeks, I was like, this one, no, this one, no, this one, no, this one. So like, I locked it in now. I picked one, but that fourth one is the one where I'm like, what if I could pick the other one though? I had a list of eight books and three I knew immediately were the three that I was gonna do. And then it was like that last one where I was like, well, now I have four other options. For me, it was like, which is the one most likely you don't own because I am very stressed that you own one of these. I don't think I'll tell you if you give me something that I already own. I mean, you should tell me, but the thing is you won't have read it at least. So. But at least, so true story. I don't know if you've ever seen it. I think it's the unemployed philosophers guild. You know, they make all those like kind of nerdy, a novelty, like gift type things. Do you don't have time out? I don't, but. I just like a company and they make a like a lot of knickknacks that are like nerdy and like, you know, have anyway. So I think that's the company that makes the Shakespeare insults mug. I always Shakespeare insult magnets or I did at one point. So yeah. So there's a particular mug that like, as I think probably more than one company's done that, but the specific one that I think is that company, I own three and I have not purchased a single one of them because three different people bought that for me as a gift. And you know, the unemployed philosophers guild also makes the exact same mug in love quotes, but no one has bought me that. They have only bought me three of the insults mugs. I feel a little attacked. I mean, I only own Harry Potter socks for the same reason. Either you only own very few socks or you have a lot of Harry Potter socks. Everyone just gifts me Harry Potter socks. Like I've never bought a single pair of Harry Potter socks for me. See, I have Lilo and Stitch socks and I have like probably 20 pairs that I've never bought. It's just like someone sees a Harry Potter sock and they're like, well, I'll buy this for Hillary. You always need more socks. Now I know not to buy you Harry Potter socks. I have lots of Harry Potter socks. I don't think anyone buys the Shakespeare insult mug for themselves. No one. Yeah, I, you know, so we just all have that thing. But why socks? I think it's cause it's cheap, but cute and novelty. Yes, cheap, cute novelty. Everyone can use it. Like, have you ever thought like I have too many socks? Like they get worn out very quickly. So like it's always going to fit. And well, like you can use the same mug every day. You just wash it out. Like you're not going to wash your same pair of socks every day. Like you're going to need multiple pairs. Need multiple pairs of socks. I thought you were going like, you're not going to wear, you're not going to wash socks every day. And I'm like, I do. I only wear a pair of socks a day, but you do you, Leanna. I mean, you don't do laundry every single day. So you can wear the exact same outfit again. No, I do not do laundry every day. That is a very accurate statement. Because you do laundry. I hear about the environment. I just wanted to make sure it's dire enough that I need my laundry. I mean, in college I definitely bought new socks so that I didn't have to do laundry. I appreciate that. But they weren't Lilo and Stitch socks. Those were gifted. So they were gifted. You didn't buy the Lilo and Stitch. Never. Yeah. I finally started to wear it. When I was subscribed to a bunch of book boxes, which I'm not anymore, for a while a bunch of them had socks. And I never wanted to wear them because they were like, you can't ever buy them again. You know, they're only from this box and they're really nice. But now I'm just like, whatever. I didn't wear them all. I really didn't buy. Oh, Matt's trying to remember if he bought either of us Harry Potter socks. Now you bought me a Harry Potter blanket, which by the way, my son loves so much, he made me get him the Slytherin one for Christmas. They're very used in our house. Is your child a Slytherin? Here's the deal, guys. I know this is unrelated. So I have not let him read Harry Potter yet because I want him to be at the perfect age to read Harry Potter. So he knows nothing about Harry Potter other than houses because we've talked about it. So he saw the snake on the house and loves snakes and was like, I'm a Slytherin. And has really started speaking parcels on yet. But he has taken it as a part of his identity. Like he tells people, my mom's a Ravenclaw and I'm a Slytherin and my dad's a Gryffindor. And I'm like, what's gonna, and he has a Slytherin blanket in his room. He's made like Slytherin perler beads to hang on his wall. I'm kind of nervous for him to actually read the books and discover Slytherin. We're gonna, so for his birthday this year, I told him we could start reading Harry Potter together. And I'm a little worried about how his feelings are gonna change. And maybe, you know, maybe, maybe he won't care that they're all the villains. See, I think it's when they start to choose Slytherin that if you are Luke Skywalker, that's when you kill them while they're sleeping because they've started to choose the dark side. You mean the JJ Abram or whoever version of Luke Skywalker who was not canon version? Yeah, that guy. So yeah, I'll have to return and report to everybody about how he feels about that situation afterwards. We'll find out. If you survive having the dark lord as your son. I have to arrive. I think he's more of a, what about a Merlin? Wasn't Merlin Slytherin, you know? They could be some, yeah, that's what Hermione says in the book that Merlin was a Slytherin, you know? So, or maybe J.K. Rowling said that when she wasn't saying really weird stuff back in the day. Like, desserts pooping in the hallways. Yeah, that was actually what I was thinking about. Who asked for this information? No one. I told someone the other day that if Twitter, if there was a timeline where everything that had been tweeted never existed, I honestly think our world would be a happier place. And that was a tweet. Can you imagine being in a world without tweeting and exist would be much better? I mean, Twitter is a net negative, no doubt about that. I mean, I don't have one and that's how I think. Anyway, this life has gone very far. American Gods. Well, we're gonna start sorting Shadow and Mr. Wednesday into their Hogwarts analysis. Okay, yeah, that's good. I mean, Mr. Wednesday obviously seems like a Slytherin, just like too easy. I mean, Loki for sure, Slytherin. For sure. I mean, they care about, you know, power above all else and ambition. I mean, Loki, I mean, Loki isn't Loki, but like, Loki, Loki, everybody is a Slytherin except for maybe Shadow. Yeah, I would agree with that. Like, I don't, Shadow, I don't know. Who's Shadow? Is Shadow like a Hufflepuff? I kind of thought that, honestly, because I was like... Loyal, like one thing he's very loyal. She calls him Puppy. That's peak Hufflepuff energy. That is true. Peak Hufflepuff energy. But also, you know who Shadow and Mr. Wednesday remind me of? Logan and Baez. Yeah, I can see that. Because Logan literally tells Baez, I don't wanna know. I don't know, I don't care what the mission is. I'm just gonna follow. He's like, cool. Yeah, actually is very that energy. And American Gods world is a little less depressing, I feel like though. And if I had to choose someone to follow, I'd probably choose Wednesday over Baez, but, you know, that's, we can't spoil. So let's not get into that discussion. That actually is a spoiler. Yeah, I don't know. I'm trying to think if there's anyone in there that I would say was a Gryffindor or Ravenclaw. And I don't know. Maybe some of the women of the Hammerbees. Is that like Easter? I don't think it would be a Gryffindor. No. And Laura would be a Gryffindor. I mean, all of them seem Slytherin to me. All of them. I mean, the way that Laura just like shows up to just like kill people to save shadow, that's kind of Gryffindor behavior. Yeah, that's true. She's complicated. Now, did you think, did she choose to have the affair or was that Wednesday influencing them? Or do you think he only influenced the car crash? I mean, I think you can't, I mean, it takes two to tango. So I think he put temptation in her way. And then she took it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, she could maybe be a Gryffindor. I could see that wanting to live. Oh, I would agree. Oh, definitely. He's collecting the stories. I think Matt Sweeney would be a Gryffindor. Yeah, that's actually what I was gonna say. That's funny that you said that. I was like, Matt Sweeney just seems like the kind of person who would be a Gryffindor. Cause he's not quite, he doesn't quite have that ambition. He's not really scheming. No, he just kind of is who he is. Yeah, that's interesting. Mostly Slytherin's a few Gryffindors, one Ravenclaw. And one Hufflepuff. And one Hufflepuff, our main character, which is why he's such a good main character. Which also has a sun god and the yellow. Full circle, full circle. Yeah, Matt was saying the moon lady. I was thinking toe-toe. All of the three sisters maybe would not be Slytherin. But they wouldn't be, what is it, Hufflepuffs? I don't think they're Ravenclaw Gryffindor. No, that's why it's almost Slytherin's still almost the best fit, it seems. Like all the gods. But what they are is Luna Lovegood. Yeah. I mean, she's a Ravenclaw. I think one of the reasons that maybe all the gods feel very Slytherin for the most part is because they literally are survived on the worship of people. Which in a lot of ways is a very Slytherin ideal. It's peak Slytherin behavior. Yeah, peak Slytherin behavior. Worship me. Die for me. Let's not get into the worship me scenes because. Because we all know that Mr. Wednesday ate no Dumbledore. He ate no Dumbledore. No. He's not really Voldemort either though. No, that's the thing. What's your average Lucius Malfoy type Slytherin's? You know what? That's a great question. Much like the meandering journey that is American gods. If you rewatched this live, you too will understand the clues we have left along the way to lead you that this was actually always where we were going. We foreshadowed it some kind of way. We foreshadowed it and you will understand more deeply about your own biases and absolutely not, Matt, because. Well, what house is Gaiman in, Ravenclaw? He's definitely, he's like the Lunar Ravenclaws where he didn't do well in school, but he was all making his own paintings on the wall. He might be a Slytherin. Really, like reading Norse mythology, I really feel like he identifies with Loki. Yeah, but I feel like he just doesn't have enough ambition or like of, but then Leanna couldn't participate. He doesn't care enough about creating. Okay, I can sort them into Westerosie houses, the noble houses of Westeros. That's the same time I'm doing the radiant orders. I mean, somehow Gaiman seems Ravenclaw-ish to me, but like maybe the sorting hat would have asked him if he wanted to be in Slytherin or Ravenclaw. He would have been like, no, Slytherin, no, Slytherin. Maybe he might have been the opposite. He's like, yeah, I'm probably Ravenclaw, but Slytherin sounds more fun. Yeah, he's Trixie like that. Well, you know, his Coraline's little ism, which I always think is in the movie, but it's not. But it's so famous in the book is B-Ys, B-Bae, B-Brave, B-Tricky. B-Ys, B-Brave, B-Tricky is like all of the houses. All of the houses, there's just no B-Loyal or B-Friendly. No Hufflepuff, but he could be a blend of Gryffindor, Ravenclaw, and Slytherin. Yeah, and maybe he is. Although I feel like Pratchett would probably be in Ravenclaw, so maybe they could both be happy in Ravenclaw together. Or they can be the Slytherin and the Ravenclaw joining forces to create good omens. That's also, maybe that's also. I accept both. There is a world. Also, just the way Neil Gaiman dresses, it's a very subtle guy. Are you the Ravenclaw, Leanna? Well, when I took the quiz years and years ago, I was Gryffindor, and then I redid it this year, and now I'm a Slytherin. I Slytherin was going to be my second guest, so. So, you know, with age comes cynicism. So which one is the one you claim Slytherin? I mean, I believed myself to be a Gryffindor, and they're two sides of the same colline. You can be both. I can see both. I mainly still identify with Gryffindor. Plus it helps that my favorite character in the Song of Wison Fires, Jamie Lannister, and the animal, the sigil for the House Lannister is a lion. So you really felt like, okay. And their color is red. So I'm a Gryffindor and a Lannister. Yeah. Yeah, and that's right, you can choose. So I think then you should just consider yourself Gryffindor. I took the quiz, well, let's see. When I was a kid reading Gryffindor, or I mean, reading Harry Potter, unlike all my other friends who were like, yeah, we're all in Gryffindor, I was like, I definitely wouldn't be. I was like 12 and I was like, then that was not where I'd be. Already a hipster. I'm definitely, no, I just like, I knew I was going to be in Ravenclaw. Like I was just like, that's my people. And so when I took the test on the official Pottermore, I was actually sadly stressed out because I was like, if I take this and it puts me in some other dumb house, my whole identity will be crushed. No pressure. No, I got Ravenclaw and I will never retake the test because in my opinion, that is the truth. And so it is. And so it is. Just ask Alan. Oh, y'all know Alan is a Gryffindor. Yeah, I, yeah, it's funny. It means nothing yet, it means everything. How are we here? It's like the next generation's Myers-Briggs test. Wait, here's a question to bring it back to American Gods. If you were an American God, why were you created? The worship of what created you, Leanna? Oh my God, existential questions. I thought you were just going to answer the first law. But Joe Abercrombie created the first law. He's Lord Grimdark, he is a God already. That's why it would be too hard of a question to come up with on the spot. My go-to is like, you know, the purchasing of books without reading them. Purchase the books without reading them. And every time someone purchases a book and doesn't read it, you grow more powerful. My library grows. My spiritual library and my physical library grows. Then I guess on that note, I am the God of always having to do exactly what you say. So like if you said you were going to read the book, you have to read the book before you buy anything else. Which means that I... See, I never said that I would and that's why I'm good to go. So that means that you will be a God who is powerful for a very long time. So okay. And no one's worshiping me. Here's us. Your purchases are intentional and my purchases are aspirational. Which again, is why you will be worshiped for years to come and I will be the dwindling Wednesday in this story. Well, I hope you've got a better plan than he did. Running me over and killing me for good. But also I feel like your son is going to be worried to learn that seeing as what happened to Mr. Wednesday's son, that if you're Mr. Wednesday... Accurate. Uh-oh. I'm in danger. It'll be a while before you can read American Gods and find that out. So it's fine. It's accepting that you don't have to be a Gryffindor. So I was Ori's mature. Actually, I think it was like sad. I was like, I'm not brave enough to be in Gryffindor. It was like... So the... So I mean, I know you don't care or know about a song, Wights and Fire, but the Lannisters, so they have a lion and like each of the houses has like words. It's like their slogan and like their actual words that are like official or hear me roar, hence the lion. But like the unofficial words that they're actually known by is a Lannister always pays its debts. I feel like it's pretty Gryffindor energy still. That's very Gryffindor. So yeah, you're a Gryffindor. I think so. Through and through. Good for you. You're the main character energy. I'm the weird side character energy. Yeah, but the side character is always everyone's favorite. It's true. Okay, well, I can't wait for our quest to continue next month into the Norwegian Woods. Find out what we talk about there. It probably won't be Norwegian Woods. Are we going to sort Murakami into his Harry Potter house? If it comes up, maybe. We can't give it away. They'll never know where it goes. Now I can actually start thinking of my answers to these really deep questions. Yeah, sorry. You come back with an answer next time. Come back next time when I figured out my identity. Your deep identity, who people would worship you for. And someday Hillary will read a non-sea boys and can't wait to learn what she thinks. Maybe, I don't know, next year we can come back. Maybe we can rank game and books. Maybe we can do a duel where we would rank all the game and books we've read. That could be kind of fun. I would be down for that. Or we can't include sad man, because then that's insane. No, I won't get that far in a year. Also, there's a lot of volumes of Sandman. Yeah, enough of the core books. That could be kind of fun to argue about that. Or agree. It would be fun to agree. But I mean, that kind of arguing is fun because it's like, we like all the books. So when you like all the books, then it's fun to just nitpick about why you like one more than the other. So it's like a fun disagreement. That's true, that's true. But you were said also that you were looking forward to us hating the books that each of us picked for their TBRs. I mean, that could also be fun is all I'm saying. Are you just story or Ravenclaw and other slithering? Maybe you bring out the Slytherin in me. That's Slytherin instead of yours. The apple might not have fallen that far from the tree. I actually, I used to be like, I'm not like Slytherin. I mean, what was I doing it? I was like, my Myers-Briggs is often always put with the villain. You know when people do Myers-Briggs little like, Myers-Briggs, six of pros, Myers-Briggs, whatever they do, I'm always like the villain pretty much, my Myers-Briggs. And I first, I think we're just very misunderstood. That's what a villain would say. OK, Thanos. I do think I have a lot of the Slytherin ambition. So I think like, that's definitely, that's there. I just skewer. In fairness, like, who would say Hermione is not ambitious? Yeah, I mean, Hermione is also, like, clearly a Ravenclaw as well in a lot of ways. So it's. And Ron is a Hodgepodge. He don't have time to get into this. But I have a whole thesis about how the Hogwarts houses are not what you are, but rather what you value. And a lot of times what you value is what you are, but not always. But I think, I mean, doesn't Dumbledore also say that when Harry's worried about how he should have been Slytherin. And he's like, it's our choices that define us. Your choice is not your abilities. But I mean, yeah, I think actually where you choose to value. Yeah. So I think, I mean, I think I'm supported by the text. There's just a lot of people who feel like the houses say what you are. It's also, it's a bit much for like your 12 year old self to define who you are for the rest of your life. Well, and that's why, look, I am the opposite of whatever a Snape Apologist is. There's all these Snape Apologies out there. And I'm whatever the opposite of that is. I mean, I think I'm only an Alan Rickman or Apologist. Yeah, I am an Alan Rickman Apologist. Absolutely, absolutely. Who doesn't love Alan Rickman? And if you do, I don't need to deal with you. But just like Snape as a person, everyone's like, remember Dumbledore was like, we put you, maybe put you in the wrong house. No, you didn't. He's defined by his ambition, which is fine. It doesn't make you a bad person. But like that. I mean, he is a bad person. That's just not why. Exactly. He is a bad person. And one good deed doesn't make you not anyway. Like how toxic is it to torture a kid because you had a thing for his mom and she didn't like, she wasn't into you? Whatever, sure. Torture Harry. His treatment of Neville Longbottom. Anyone who tries to claim to me that he's not a bully. But I mean, his reasons for bullying Harry, it's not that he bullies him. It's the creepy reason for bullying Harry that it's like, how is that not toxic? Hey, don't romanticize that. That's gross. He threatens to kill someone's pet. Like this is not a good dude anyway. He's a meanie. He's a meanie. And he has a very interesting story, which is great. But that doesn't mean all these apologists out there. Well, I mean, it's the same like the people. I hate when books, well, you know, there's when you find out the reasons behind the behavior. Well, now it's like a romantic hero because you found out they had a tragic backstory. And I'm like, I mean, that explains why they are the way they are, but that's still not okay. Ron, excuse me. That's not fine. It's an explanation, not an excuse. Like it'll make someone, you can feel sorry for them or feel- And especially if it's a love interest and they're like, they've been really mean and abusive. And then you find out they had a tragic backstory and I'm like, oh, okay. Well, that means that you weren't born an asshole. It means you need therapy and I'm not a therapist. So go get therapy and stop abusing me. Yeah, it's like, okay, I feel sorry for you, but now it doesn't excuse you treating me like garbage. So go buy it. Which is why I can't read a lot of romances. Which is why we ship Alina with Mal and not the Darkling. Correct. Guys, if you had known how many conversations Blaine and I have had about- It's the origin story of our friendship. The origin story of our friendship is talking about why I do not understand how anybody likes the Darkling. And it was not just because it's played by Ben Barnes. Well, we don't need to go into your rational dislike of Ben Barnes. Any. So American Gods is a great book that is just so universally relevant that anything we say really does tie back to American Gods. Everything we've said, you'll find an explanation for it. Because if we're being honest, an authentic story about American Gods, like the Harry Potter fandom, I'm pretty sure is a God. Yes. Ooh, what's the avatar of the Harry Potter fandom? Like what does that God look like? Who are they? Are they confused? Because they are probably one of those people who always looks like a child, but isn't a child, you know? Others like those in mythology. So like, they're stuck as a 12 year old, but they're like crude and crass because they're really grown up, but like- So they look like the aged up versions of the characters in the last movie where they were like tried to make them look like adults but it's clearly still the young actors. Still the 20 year old or however old they were. Yes. That is what they look like and- Alternatively, the avatar is a chocolate frog. I like that better. I mean, Gaiman would write the first one, but Pratchett would write the frog. Yes. Yeah, correct. They look like a millennial. I mean, also true. Wearing some kind of weird jester's outfit that's like the four colors in like four quadrants. Maybe they just choose a different personality each day of the week. No, Gaiman would write it where they are all of them at the same time, but only one at the same time all of the time. And you'd be like, how do I visualize that? Yeah, you already just broke my brain. You know, I've been one of those things where like, he looks at it and he swears it's a Ravenclaw. But while he's looking at it, he's definitely sure it's a Slytherin. And yet if you asked him tomorrow, he would say it was a Hufflepuff. See, American Gods is relevant to everything because everything can be worshiped and made into a God and you just have to figure out the form that it would take. That's why any adaptation of it would need to keep getting updated. Yeah, and I think it's interesting that he chose a show format. I still think, which again, I told you that I think the ideal adaptation format would have been a film directed by the Coen brothers would have been. Perfect. I just weirdly for how long and meandering it is, I don't actually think it would make a good show. I think it would be better condensed into a movie. Or if a show, then like a mini series that's like a limited series. It's only like four. Like the Good Ones show. It was six episodes, very limited, and that was perfect. Yes. Although they are doing season two. I, they shouldn't, oh, of Good Ones. Yeah, but it's not the book. It's something different. It's not two seasons of the book, you know? Yeah, because they finished it. They finished it. But which is why I loved when Neil Gaiman, I think he was tweeting. So Twitter can stave it's only Neil Gaiman tweeting. Where someone was like horrified at season two of Good Ones and he's like, what are they going to do? Just make it up. And Gaiman was like, well, that's how the first was written. I did it up. Yeah, I think we'll see. I have complicated feelings about cash grabs, but also there's a world where another season could be really fun. So, wait. Well, I think if you ask people like Alan, they'll be like, well, it'll be garbage because it's only Gaiman now without Pratchett. Well, but Gaiman is very good at knowing when he should be uninvolved in things. Plus, I mean, for those who say that if Gaiman writes it, then it's going to be like American Gods. It's only going to be dark. It's only going to be weird. Oh, yeah, Darius, right. They outlined it together. I will say. But also, Gaiman wrote Stardust. So he has the capacity to be whimsical and fun. It's not always. I think the difference is that Pratchett has such a biting humor that is so prevalent in Good Omens. And I think that I'm worried that a writer on the show will think they have that, but will not have it. So I think it's very, I just, I mean, I'm very biased because I love Terry Pratchett. I just think he has a very unrivaled sense of humor. And so I worry that there's someone's going to try to be funny and it's like, well, you're not. I honestly, I don't know if you'll agree or if this makes any sense. But if it was like, they have the outline of it, which is great. But if it was like co-written, mild by Neil Gaiman and Stephen Frye, I feel like. I don't write anything by Stephen Frye. But I mean, if you look at like the comedy that he writes or that he used to write, like when he used to do a sketch show with you, Lori. And like his humor is quite Pratchett-esque, I think. I think though, I mean, Gaiman knew Pratchett. So I feel like he's going to do it. And like this person said, I agree because that's something Gaiman said when I was looking into the show. Like he is super concerned about protecting this and making something that Pratchett would like. And I truly like believe that they would like. And it seems like, I mean, the team that worked on it the first season, it was, I feel like it felt like it was very lovingly made, like everyone participating in it. I mean, I really liked it. And Amazon did that. So, Amazon has the capacity to do good shows. Well, that's, you know, we can't go on another divergence. We can't. We can't go talking about Amazon shows. We can't do it right now. I can't. Did you hear about that petition to get good omens taken off of Netflix? And so Netflix was like, sure, we'll take it down immediately. Wait, why? What? It was produced by Amazon. I understand it's produced by Amazon. It wasn't on Netflix, but why did people want it taken down, period? Oh, I think it was like a very like extremely conservative Christian group. Yeah, Gaiman said something about that too. He was like, yeah, we made a black Adam and Eve. So just like right off the bat, you'd know what kind of show this was. But I just love that like they bothered to get a ton of signatures on a petition to get it taken down from Netflix. I was like, you guys couldn't even get that right? I was like, representative of the type of people who do that stuff. So. Anything. I just, the amount of times I have to talk about Amazon recently and adaptations. I can't do it anymore. But it's nice to be talking about it positively. That's true. That's true. Which, okay, you don't like audio books, but they recorded an audio book with the cast of Good Omens, reading Good Omens. No. They did. I understand. I'm telling you, no, I'm not gonna listen to it. I don't care. I'll watch the show if I want to hear their voices. Fair enough. Okay. Are we done with both American gods and the tangents? For today. For today. Until next time. On Hilary's channel. On my, yeah. We set the date already, so we can tell if people win. Yeah, Norwegian Wood will be the last Monday of the month, right? It, yes, the 28th, same time. 28th, 6 p.m. We're gonna talk about Norwegian Wood. I haven't read it, but Mirror Comedy's generally less fun. So I don't know if a conversation won't be as fun. I mean, I don't know how fun American gods is. That's true. We'll make it fun. We're fun. We're fun. So when we talk about Norwegian Wood, it will be fun. And it seems like a lot of the people here have read some Mirror Commies. So that will be interesting. I'm the baby that hasn't read any Mirror Commies. I'm the baby that hasn't read any Mirror Commies. Yes, this will be your first one. So it'll be interesting to see if I feel like it was a good first choice too. I mean, that will be one of my first questions to you when we read it. It's like, so was this a good place to start? Was it not? Yeah, we'll be discovering that together, which will be kind of fun. Are we starting that tomorrow? Sure. I've been pacing myself so that I could start it on the first. All right, let's do it. OK, we'll start tomorrow. We'll be exciting. So at 12 o'clock 1 a.m., I'll voxer you. Yes, you can do that. Oh, you want page one? I'm on page one. I sleep because I go to sleep at 10 p.m. But you're not committed to this buddy read the way that I'm committed. So I can voxer you at 7 a.m. Are we not just going at 12 o'clock 1 a.m. Just read it continuously together until we are finished? Sounds great. I will call a babysitter. An Norwegian word is less wild than a lot of us others. OK, that will be interesting. I will say the four that I've read are all extremely wild. So that'll be interesting if that's more grounded. Two and a fist when we're chatting on the wall. Perfect. I mean, at least you'll see if we thought it was good or not, so it's worth picking up. Yeah, and it'll be interesting to see because we both, I mean, I already knew you liked American gods. It had been a long time since I read it, though, so I really liked it. So it'll be interesting if we have the same opinion about Norwegian wood. I wonder if I'll be colored because I already predisposed to like Mirakami's writing. So yeah, I don't know. That'll be interesting. You can be the apologist. I can be the apologist. Yeah, that's a fun place for me to be. I'm usually the one where other people, like, I'm the hater. So lately, you know, I like a lot of things. But lately, I do, too. People don't believe that. Yeah, I see. No, it's perfect. Effective. You should go read it. She hates it. We like a lot of the same books. So I feel like I feel like it if I liked it maybe. We have similar tastes. You and me? No, radio. I talk to radio a lot. No, I always tell people, you and me, Lana, we have a Venn diagram with like a skinny middle. And it's getting to be a decent, respectable size middle. Size, I guess. I feel like even if we don't agree about books, we agree about the things that will be critical about in books oddly enough, even if we somehow are willing to forgive it at very different times. Yes, that's correct. And and when we come together on hating a book like Half Sick of Shadows, it's very, very pointed and fun. So. And even when we don't agree, we stay around. Someone posted a review of Adrienne today and it was such a beautiful picture. I was like, great, this person liked the book. And then they're like, this book was terrible. And I was like, oh, good. It's a very the UK edition is so pretty. I wonder if that's what it was. I don't know. It was gorgeous. I wanted to own it even though I hate it, you know? Was it like with like the gold leaves? Yes. Yeah. Oh, man. I remember like regretting that I got it from Book of the Month because the UK one's so pretty. But then I read it and I was like, oh, I would have. Anyway, American Gods. Again, that's what this was about. You've made it this far. You might have forgotten at this point. The Bacon Book. The Bacon Book. All right. Until next time. Until next time. Bye-bye. Thanks for...