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My name is Leila Gurawiwi and I'm a proud Yulma woman of the Galpo clan of North East Arnhem land I would like to acknowledge that all of agency's untold talk series are filmed on the lands of the Rurundri people of the Kulin nation And we pay our respects to their elders past and present It gives me great pleasure to welcome you to agency's untold talk series Agency is an Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander non-for-profit That celebrates and promotes Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander art culture and people on a local national and international scale Untold brings together leading Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander creative practitioners and thinkers from across Australia and beyond and shines a light on a broad range of topics from caring for country to the unseen work of women in communities and the importance of intergenerational learning Our host for this series is Gumeroy woman Crystal Denapoli who is a astrophysics graduate Now undertaking an Honours degree at Monash University Crystal is a passionate advocate for Indigenous Sciences Indigenous astronomy in particular which she explores through public presentations Research writing and by embedding indigenous knowledges into secondary and tertiary curricula Hi today. I'll be speaking with Gunai Kurnai woman Emmy Weathers Emmy. Welcome. Thank you for coming here today. Thanks Would you be able to tell us a bit about yourself and who you are? Yeah. Yeah, I'm Emmy Weathers. I'm a Gunai Kurnai descendant I've lived most of my life on Banarung and Rurundri countries And I run a small business called Rurukyembo So I wanted to start off by asking sort of I don't know. I was going to say it's a funny question, but um If you were to try and explain your cultural identity to someone who probably has no idea of what an Aboriginal or First Nations person is how would you introduce yourself or describe? Yeah. Yeah, so I think that's like a really loaded question actually But I think I would try to explain that it just feels like it feels every part of my life in a lot of ways But very differently to the standard Australian context of life. I think so for us, it's really about being around Community and trying to revive practices and being you know And being fully immersed within our community and making sure our young ones are growing up strong and getting those connections to their elders And so I think it's it's really hard because I think for me it definitely feels like it encapsulates every part of my life but in a very different way to how The standard Australian concept would be yeah encapsulating all of your life No, that that makes a lot of sense. Um, you mentioned as well, particularly like community and the importance it has to you Do you want to sort of expand upon that in terms of the the significance of community particularly as an Aboriginal person in your identity? Yeah, yeah, so Not living on my land. I think sometimes gets really hard We go home to it all the time But not living on it I think is very disjointing especially when I'm trying to talk to my kids and stuff like that because obviously we want to Respect the land we're on and the stories we're on and all of that So they grow up learning that and knowing that and being a part of that and they're Welcome, baby country ceremonies and all of that are done on the lands that they live on and communicate with And then we go home and it's A different culture because in the Australian concept they were all set up very differently for a lot of for a lot of it And so for them they kind of get these two worlds of knowledge that interact in terms of their both indigenous Ways of knowledge, but they're different and so I think that Yeah, like for me and my kids We kind of sit in this middle ground where we don't live on our land So we respect all that we want our kids to grow up strong and culture So they attend all the groups that are around here, but then we go home and it's different and Just dealing with both those sides of it. Yeah, that's a really interesting point too. I hadn't considered The the impact that that would have on you as well with someone who's trying to educate people on culture Being essentially growing up off country and being off country at the moment And that sort of divide because country is really significant for a lot of us Yeah For all of us in so many different ways and in the series so far We've tried to talk about that idea of what does country mean How would you define it because it's always a lot more than just the land, right? Yeah. Yeah, definitely and I think I find that really I I almost can't explain but when we go home, it's almost like Everyone in our family is just a little bit mellower if that makes sense like a little bit more calmer a little bit more together a little bit more like The hype of the world isn't running around us And I don't know how else to explain it other than I feel like it's just like the second you step on your country It just goes yeah, you're meant to be here. You're good like you're fine. Yeah, so yeah, I really relate to that I've always heard this Sort of like almost like off topic in a way but on topic But talking about that connection to culture to country specifically and to culture and community But the idea of being really connected to where your ancestors have come from and where you identify with And I know it's really tied into sort of like a spiritual sense for some people And I didn't really as a scientist who's like all you know cynical about everything I didn't really buy into that idea of that I would feel a connection to country and then I had mine to return to country because I also grew up For me, it was hundreds of kilometers away from where my family come from And my first return to country. I actually felt what you're describing this weird sense of connection and calmness of Belonging and it was surreal to me and it's really changed the way I actually view The world the whole universe. So it's it's a very important connection that It's hard to describe for people who probably haven't felt it. I feel yeah. Yeah. Yeah, because it's very ingrained in You I guess it's a little bit like when you go home at the end of the day But it just feels like it encapsulates your whole body like during the second you step on there. It's like, okay Yeah, we're here. We're a part of this I think you've done a wonderful way of explaining it because I feel that so it is it is Yeah, it's I feel like you've described the experience. I've had very well Um, so this is like a bit of a broad once again, probably loaded question Yeah, um, but asking what what role does culture play in your daily life now? Yeah, so because I work in the space I think it just takes up every every aspect of it, but I think I was very much raised In a family where we like my parents understood the disconnect that had already happened and wanted to make sure that that wasn't continuing So like really made sure we attended like all the kids groups and the youth groups Everything we could any any time we could get involved Which is why I feel really lucky to be so involved in Buna Rung and Wara Rangiri Country because my parents my parents made sure that that was definitely a part of it So the disconnect didn't continue and I think that's something that I've instilled in my kids now to make sure the disconnect doesn't continue for them because That was just something we were brought up with that, you know, we'd already lost so much So let's make sure we don't lose anything else and keep it as strong as humanly possible And so I think yeah wanting to that for my kids and then working in the space It it's super encapsulates everything I do because it's just like it's a natural progression with my children But it's also like it's what I do for work every day. So Absolutely. Yeah, and so with this disconnect. I I'm guessing we're referring to The literal disconnect we're talking about about being away from country But also the devastating impact of invasion and colonization in this country, which has Caused a lot of harm to a lot of our knowledges and our knowledge systems. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. That's that's that's really specifically what I'm talking about more because um My mum spent the first half of her life not knowing because that was her parents way Of making sure certain things didn't happen to her that happened to them So that was like their way of making sure that that didn't continue there, but it also meant that she Yeah, missed out on like and and that's really common for her generation and even the generation above her like that You just kind of lost Yeah, a lot in that. Yeah, I know this is probably something that we um might not be able to expand upon because it's not necessarily our range of expertise But we're both knowledgeable on but for context for anyone who might be listening to this Really recent history. So, uh, like even like the late 1900s. So, you know, not even 50 years ago at this point Aboriginal people in Australia faced a lot of discrimination And the more I hear about it the more it just really shocks me to my core because I feel like you you feel like you know enough About colonization to have an idea of everything that's going on But we're not properly educated on it in Australia. And so there are a lot of things about The stolen generation so the removal of Aboriginal children from Aboriginal parents Continuing up into the 1970s. So our parents generation or our grandparents generation Having a fear of identifying in the hospital because you may actually lose your child And also things like not being able to go to a shop and buy food Yeah, this is all really recent and so I understand why your parents generation Would probably not be identifying as strongly because that sort of was a survival tactic for many of our Mobs our communities, particularly in heavily colonized areas. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. So I you I'm wonder I'm really happy to hear that your parents did their best to facilitate community activities for you that would connect you with your cultural identity I do want to ask about what your experiences were like though in the classroom setting in a Australian education system about how you felt um Was Aboriginal culture how was it discussed and how do you feel like it was represented? Yeah, so For me it was barely discussed But when it was it was either super historical to the point where and it's something I ask in all my classes today to make sure that Kids today don't think this as if Indigenous people weren't even around anymore You know, like it was like sort of talked about so it was like so long ago and that's like It like it so it felt like when it was being discussed like they didn't exist anymore And obviously I knew differently, but I know a lot of people grew up Maybe not really understanding that and then the only other time it really ever got discussed was very briefly In terms of the atrocities, which I think very much painted this victim idea Which obviously it was awful and I don't disagree with that, but I think We're so much more than the victims of history. Does that make sense? And I think that's the only time we ever really get heard of in Classroom settings was this victim of history very briefly and then we move on and Talk about something else and I think that's when you get adults that are kind of Hearing about things or trying to learn about things and it feels really confronting And I find that adults can either just like completely shut down or they get really like Resistant on it like they don't want they don't want to know about it that I want to hear about it because it feels too hard and too And too awful, which is yeah, like that's kind of what I grew up with And it's not something that I want to continue for future generations either because I And I'm sure you have the same thing I've spent my entire adult life outside of work Talking like, you know the second they hear that you're Indigenous. It's like, okay now It's like a whole education like that didn't you know that we don't need to have if the System already covered it like yeah, how would you have wanted it to be done better when you were when you're yeah so I think starting I think We're all part of this country and I think starting at the earliest ages is always amazing because That's what our kids do anyway in community But also it just means you can start at a level that it doesn't feel like a new information when they're 16 It's just information that grows with them and they get a little bit more as they get older and older and older and then You get like a whole picture of what? Indigenous Australia looks like as an adult as opposed to just little snippets here and there that maybe don't Fully represent the people that are here today. Yeah. No, I think that's a really good point I find because I work in the space of as you've said like Outside of my work honestly, I'm trying to talk to people about Indigenous knowledges and in particular I'm focused on Indigenous science because that is something that there is a lot of resistance to nowadays because Many Australians have been raised with absolutely no concept of what Aboriginal culture is like And so when they become adults and hear that actually there is this wealth of phenomenal Ingenious knowledge that has been cultivated and evolved on this land for over tens of thousands of years It's almost hard to comprehend because it's like this is really cool Why wouldn't I have heard about it though? Yeah, and so that's where people like yourself are sort of coming in To fix the situation here, which I really admire. Yeah So I wanted to ask then for a comparison. You're a mother. You have beautiful children What have the experiences been like for them in their classrooms? Yeah, so I found even with my work and with my first born and now with my second born The early learning space is super keen So like those kindergarteners the day Kesson is they're super keen to get something really really Tangible embedded like to the point where they They don't even want to like secondhand teach it almost just is my experience Like they want to get people in to come do it like that's that's the thing I think primary school And I'm seeing it a lot with my oldest now seems to still have a little bit of a resistance like There's just a few things around language and stuff like that that Tyrus will bring home and be like, oh that didn't really Make sense to me or like or even just the difference between Tyrus's kindergarten That really wanted to have it be a part of it And how much Tyrus feels like it's lost now in school like we'll even say stuff like I miss doing that stuff or I miss like And I can understand because I grew up feeling the same thing It's like this start of this like they feel like two different worlds Do you know what I mean? Like they're two different worlds that you're working within I think it's better than when we were in school, but it's probably still not enough if A child that's seven is feeling that difference or feeling that disconnect there suddenly Coming out of kindergarten and going into school and being like, oh, okay. This isn't As important to you guys as it was in kindergarten or as it was at home You know, it's more just like a we say a little thing before assembly is or we do the odd thing here in there In certain weeks throughout the year. Yeah, that's so interesting Especially there must be weird for Tyrus to go from a situation where his preschool Essentially is really enthusiastic about cultural knowledge Welcoming knowledge holders elders into the classroom to talk to them directly about our knowledges And then to go to school where once again, it's really not hitting the mark there No, yeah, that's it and it's and it's kind of like because it doesn't even hit like the big markers Where it fully understands things but sometimes it misses like the little markers too where Tyrus understands the idea of like Different countries throughout Australia. So then you do something where that's not Even brought up when you're talking about different areas of Australia or you know, like geography and stuff like that as much as they do at seven And it's always like this sudden like, oh, are we talking about a different Space like it feel like it definitely feels like that like it's like it's two different ways of looking at the space And so, um, I guess like keeping in mind your experiences and now also seeing the experiences your children are having Which are a little better, but also still not quite getting there What impact do you feel uh, this lack of acknowledgement in the classroom? So, you know, you know, this is the place where all Australian kids across the country get to go to learn what's important for us Apparently, right? Yeah So what impact do you feel like it had on your cultural identity to be in a classroom that wasn't really Acknowledging the uh, the depth of where you've come from I think it's something that contributed to me being quite rebellious Later in school if that made sense like I felt like school didn't understand me So why did I want to understand school if that made sense like that that's that's kind of where I went with it But that's also fitting within my personality. I don't think that's everyone else But that's like that that was for me I was just like it doesn't get me so I didn't get it and I enjoy And I think that's the connection like I enjoy my culture so much that this space that feels like it's completely separate to it Doesn't relate to me anymore like, you know And the older I got the worse that got really like, you know, like and I look at taris who's seven and It's not that bad now, but I can definitely see how it can grow into that kind of feeling of being like a well You don't even really understand me. Yeah. So why am I here like? Yeah, I it's really sad to hear that because obviously education is really important for a number of different reasons And so to be feeling like that you um, sort of uh, were misunderstood and also just not acknowledged By the classes and for that to sort of drive you away from it is really sad to hear Yeah, and so then that leads me on to hopefully some of the improvements we can make so you've um, you've actually Launched your own business now for a few years. Um called warakiyambo I was wondering if you could explain to us what warakiyambo is and how it came about. Yeah Yeah, so warakiyambo does Quite a few things it came about literally from taris's preschool really being like a we don't know The best way of doing it, but we want we want to do it and I was just like, okay That's just this like that's cool. And then that kind of grew to other places saying it and then starting to realize that There's like a real gap in This space where like there are these teachers that really want to do it But just don't know the best way or don't know who to get in or don't know, you know, how to navigate it Um, and so that that kind of formed the start of the business So I feel like it was it's kind of nice that kind of formed around quite organically A gap and then from there it's just kind of growing through Like my I keep talking about them my kids like the greatest inspiration my life So like that kind of grew into like the toys and stuff and the resources that we make because it was all stuff that like I felt like they enjoyed playing with and stuff that could be Embedded in those spaces and not just for a special week or on a special table But just in the space so it felt like it belonged and was part of it Um, and so that's where that grew from and then there's just it's just kind of gotten bigger from there Where like it's got a bit of consulting side and a bit of a bit of art side and it's just like lots of doubles So um, could you expand upon those services that you do offer? So yeah So I do incursions and workshops, which I keep separately because incursions are really like in the classroom So they're really formal education. So yeah, what what is an incursion? That's what I go into a space usually early learning centers And I will run a session on indigenous cultures a few different ones that we do in different ways Depending on what they want to learn because some places get us in for one or two sessions and some places get us in every week So it's like a building learning every week So that that's an incursion and then workshops are more done at events where it's more like a Interact as you're coming and going throughout the event kind of thing Um, and then yeah, we have the toys and the resources which are just for purchase Um, and then that's their idea is to be able to be embedded Quite authentically within a space and feel like they are supposed to be they're not not a special thing Like just they're meant to be a part of it. Um, and then yeah, we do a bit of consulting for teachers and stuff if they Want to just more talk about I get a lot of questions about things like acknowledgement to country and stuff like that So yeah around that kind of stuff. Um, and then yeah, just the art side which kind of came off The creation of the toys and resources. Yeah, and so, um, I know I guess we sort of like covered this idea But um, what do you feel really brought you to start work? Yeah, but was it those experiences that you and your children have had? Yeah, so yeah, definitely those experiences that they've had Obviously, I say it grow grew really organically through the preschool of like them just asking me to come in and do some things with the kids but I think it was really like a Realizing there was a gap and not wanting my kids to face the same education system. I did Growing up. So I think it was really like a like once that was realized. I was like, okay, like I If I if I can do even something really small that benefits their lives You know, like that that seems beneficial to me So that was yeah, it was really about wanting to make sure that we can address this gap and make sure that people understand that indigenous, australian first nations people are active parts And really important parts of the country that you're operating on Yeah, and not just confined to a special week of acknowledgement or a little a toke not and not to insult But like a little tokenistic gesture at the start of an assembly. It's good that it's embedded Authentically and genuinely through fair experiences at the school. Yeah. Yeah, exactly So, um, I I know we don't have any props to show you here today But I I will vouch for the fact that I've seen a lot of the toys and resources that you've created And I think they're very beautiful and engaging and I was wondering if you could tell us a bit about what these toys are And why you've created them to begin with. Yeah. Yeah So, um to start off with like the bit of the mascot of ricambos have been the animals and that just happened Really naturally on its own they they started out really really basic to start off with And have kind of grown to I think 22 of them now like I think there was six when we started um And they've kind of become like a bit of a mascot because they are really great for storytelling and just general play and they can be You know quite easily put into different spaces for kids to play You know if you're a small world player if you're working on a certain book that week They work like they work for a lot of things So they've kind of naturally become like I call them the mascot But they're just like we get most recognized because of them And then we've got pegdolls, which there's a few different varieties of these painted ones. There's like felt cloaks. There's like fake fur cloaks. So to try and keep them as Authentic as possible and kind of allow them not to look like every other pegdoll Like they they look enough like them that they can be included in the same spaces But different enough that they are specific to us Um, and then we've got some stackers. We've got some gunners I've got a sandhill, which I really really love And I'm a bit obsessed with that gun now because it can be pulled apart and used very very differently So it can be kind of pushed apart or it can be used in multiple different ways to make multiple gunners um Yeah, they would be the main ones and then up apart from those like symbol tiles and stuff like that That gets a little bit more specific if you're trying to do Something specific. Yeah, and um, could you tell us a bit about what strength you think lies in? Teaching kids through play Yeah, so I think especially at a young age It's where they learn the best and the more they interact with things the more it doesn't feel like The other does that make sense? It doesn't feel like it's foreign Yeah, if they just experience it and I think it's where kids learn the best And it's also where you get the best kind of questions out of Children where like they'll ask like why does this do this or why does that do that? Or you know like why to you know, so I think that that's also the best And I think at such a young age starting that way too You learn through play because that's what you do all the time So it does just come become part of your space and part of your knowledge and part of your imagination and you know all that kind of stuff And so I just think when kids learn best that way even up to seven and eight nine and ten It's the best way to kind of Start like like to bring that in to start off with because that's That's also fun for them. Yeah, I mean because like Kids always learn better when it's fun like yeah And how um, how has the response has been to children that you've interacted with now through your business? Yeah, I'm super it's been really really positive We've we've got a lot of really great feedback which has been fantastic And I feel really lucky from that and I and it does make me realize that Even young kids like I think it's important because of what I grew up with but even young kids that aren't first nations Want to know more like they're just like little sponges of information And if it feels relevant and cool and they want to know it like they want to be a part of it They want to understand this different thing that they maybe didn't experience beforehand But that is still so relevant to where they are. Yeah I love that too. Um, I feel very similarly that I feel like the Aboriginal culture and knowledge is phenomenal and it should be really respected and embraced by greater Australia I feel like it's something that we should like Indigenous and non-indigenous all should be holding a lot of pride with To know that we are home to the world's longest continuing culture. Yeah by a really crazy margin By the way, like tens of thousands of years. I know the dates always get pushed back 65,000 80,000 120,000 are some of the latest estimates It is something unseen of around the world. It's still thriving Despite harm that has been created and it's so surprising to me that Australia has sort of Chosen to try and avoid talking about this knowledge or this culture instead of embracing and essentially bragging about How awesome it is to be living on the land of Aboriginal people who are some of the world's first scientists first knowledge holders First bread bakers Yeah, yeah, and you definitely see that with kids where they don't have that kind of pushback to not want to know about It's the opposite because they think it's just as amazing. Like it's just as cool that exactly you're right It's the longest living culture By a decent margin and that just sounds especially when you're talking to young kids like that just sounds incredible to them Like it's like yeah Oh, I'm I'm very optimistic for the future of our country when we have people like yourself working in these phases to educate kids Give them that access to that learning that they definitely want. Um, we've seen that they want I I say definitely But I know from your experience and also from mine because I do talk in a lot of schools We've been a lot of libraries with a lot of deadly young ones. Um, and kids are always so thirsty for knowledge Which is just wonderful. Yeah, they really are So I wanted to ask then how has like the I guess like community response being to work? Because you started off organically sort of through yourself, but I can see that your business is becoming quite booming at this point Yeah, yeah, it's kind of probably at capacity of what we can handle just being me mostly So, yeah, it is kind of sitting at that, um, which is great because we operated through, um, COVID and so we didn't really know What it was going to look like like if that was a really accurate representation or if it wasn't and so um, I think that was um yeah, like Kind of like our outlook, we didn't really know what we were doing to start off with whereas it's kind of nice to see it this year and be like, okay, this is A very viable business which is promising for the future like it's promising for not just me but any other You know first nations person wanting to get into the space. Um, and yeah, just having it kind of at like a Capacity where I'm like, yeah, like we've got kind of nice constant work Coming through like it feels It feels like we're doing the right thing because of that. Yeah And um, do you have any like hope or expectations because you aimed at like this early childhood sort of learning so Before entering primary school or secondary school. Do you have any hope for um, or way? I guess of describing an ideal future in which Kids indigenous non-indigenous kids will be able to experience culture in their classrooms like in terms of reaching up to those Higher levels of primary and secondary. Yeah, so it's like the Long term or main goal of the know your country campaign But I definitely definitely Resonates with me too is the idea would be it would be great to have a first stations educator in every school So that it wasn't just kept to a week or to history Indigenous perspectives could be embedded anywhere anytime throughout the classroom So similar to the early learning spaces that we're trying to create It's just a part of everything you're doing. Yeah, you know, which to me it just seems logical because It's literally a part of where we are So a part of everything we're doing would make sense It completely makes sense. You're hoping for something that's organic and Embedded throughout the entire experience in school Not just as we've said because we do have we have a couple of significant weeks in our calendar in Australia You have national reconciliation week, which has just sort of passed. Yeah now actually a month ago Which is really focused on indigenous and non-indigenous coming together and to different communities Members will have their response to that week because it's Focused on reconciliation. So it is that perspective of trying to find some sort of way forward together And I know there's concerns about are we doing that authentically and genuinely or is it You know another type of gesture. Yeah, and then we have NAIDOC week, which we're about to experience you and I Although by the time anyone sees this it may not be the you know the same date But we are approaching NAIDOC week, which is a really important Historical week for Aboriginal people and it really is our week. It's not focused on reconciliation But it's more the celebration of how deadly we are and how great we are But then that that sort of gives a lot of these institutions a reason to lump any type of acknowledgement of Aboriginal culture Into those two weeks. Yeah, so I love I agree and I fully Support that idea of needing something that's authentically embedded throughout their entire experiences And not just something that we do acknowledge when those weeks come up But then otherwise don't really pay much attention to no because that does again start to add to that kind of Separation of what it feels like. It's like it's just yeah, like that's the you know, that's the only time we get to Do anything with it in this space So, yeah, I agree like it would just be amazing to have that you can still do those amazing weeks. Obviously we Grow up in community and we still do we go hard on NAIDOC week Um, but to have it just be a bit more authentically embedded and be a bit more a part of everything So then I find it would even make those weeks more important. Do you want to mean rather than just like a Here's a little snippet Because it come up in the calendar. Absolutely No, I love that actually That's a really good point that we tend to use those weeks for like basic education and acknowledgement Whereas if we were doing that throughout the rest of the year those weeks can be what they're really supposed to be Which is that celebration and that complete focus Yeah So, um, my final sort of question, but just just wondering pure curiosity of myself Um, work ember is largely run by yourself You've said that you are sort of open to people who want to get into this space to join Are you looking to hopefully be expanding beyond the scope of where you are at the moment? Yeah, so maybe in the future that would be really great. I think um Running a bigger business is something that I would have to do a lot of work In before even starting to do that. Um, yeah But I'm either way either whether it's us expanding or other people just taking off the same way we did I think the more people in the space the better because it's it's clearly wanted and it's clearly needed and I think that's so important Like it doesn't need to just be kept to a few people that are running stuff right now, you know So I want to say I thank you so much for your time. I really am um inspired and almost like not almost Definitely reassured to know that there are people out like you out there You have a real A strong focus on educating people in australia about culture indigenous and non-indigenous alike And I do feel a lot better knowing that you will be creating a way more wholesome Knowledgable and understanding future in which we can hopefully all prosper. Yeah, so thank you emmy for your time. Thank you