 Yn gyflawni gydangos, wrth gwrs, ond Can I welcome you to the 14th Public Petitions Committee meeting up 2015. I have reminded everyone to switch off mobile phones and electronic devices as they do interfere with our sound system. Apologies have been received from Angus MacDonald, and Michael Mehan. I also welcome Mike Russel, who will be attending the meeting today. Item 1 on the agenda this petition P.E.1569, by George McKenzie. o'r reintroduction o'r Cymru dechrau'r newid. George, mae gennym 5 mwyn o'ch ddweud i'r ddweud i'ch cysyllt. Yn y gallai gweithio, mae'n dweud i'r cysylltu i'r ddweud i'r dweud i'r ddweud i'r ddweud. Ddod ddod i'n gwneud. Maen nhw i'n ddweud i'r ddweud i'r ddweud, a oedw i'r ddweud i'r ddweud i'r ddweud. I may open my short statement by thanking you for the invitation to appear before you today. Over the past 60 years, I have sailed under the Red Ensign as a yachtsman, a defaced Red Ensign as a sea scout officer, and the White Ensign as an officer of Clyde Division of the Royal Naval Reserve. However, in the last 25 years, I have noticed an increasing number of vessels wearing the Scottish Red Ensign around our coasts, so much so that five vessels in bute, including my own, now regularly fly this flag. It has also become widely available through internet flag retail outlets based, I may say, mainly in Northern England and Northern Ireland, but the Glasgow flag maker James Stevenson said there's a steady demand for the flag. Yet despite its increasing popularity, it is an improper ensign, and in terms of the merchant shipping act 1995, it's technically illegal to wear or fly it on a British vessel. Little did I realise that I would end up appearing in front of a parliamentary committee when, in late 2010, I was asked by a close friend to suggest a suitable nautical gift, her aunt, Dr Winnie Ewing, could present to the representatives of the former Scottish Staple of Vera in the Netherlands to mark her retirel as a conservator of the Scot's privileges at Vera, and Vera was Scot's main trading port in the Low Countries from 1488 to 1789. I immediately suggested that a Scottish Red Ensign would be more than appropriate, for that would have been a flag flown by the merchant vessels from Scotland trading throughout the 300 years that Vera had been the Scottish Staple. At a ceremony in Hollywood in January 2011, the ensign was presented by Winnie to the delight of the Dutch delegation and the representatives of the political parties of the Scottish Parliament present, including the First Minister. It was this spontaneous reaction coupled with an article I had read about the states of Jersey attaining their own voluntary or informal Red Ensign, and having recently seen a yacht in the Greek islands flying the Scottish Red Ensign with no apparent problems from the maritime authorities, which encouraged me to find out if and how the Scottish Ensign could be legalised as an informal or voluntary ensign for Scottish vessels, initiating the process which has led to this hearing today. My petition deals with the officials and the authorities with whom I have corresponded, but I must comment that throughout that correspondence, at no time have I received advice that a warrant application was not possible or would fail, and the only delay in the process so far was caused by it being deferred for two years because of a recent referendum. Additionally, as British ship registration is a reserved matter invested with the United Kingdom's maritime and coast guard agency, I would stress that my petition does not seek to replace or supersede the Red Ensign. However, if a warrant were granted, Scottish vessels would then have the option of legally wearing the Red Ensign or the Scottish Red Ensign. This country for its size has had a major effect on the maritime history of the world, and as one who was born and brought up in Glasgow beside the River Clyde, I can recall how the words Clyde built were held in the highest regard worldwide. Then, for over 50 years, Rossie was the venue for the prestigious international yacht racing event Clyde Fortnite, regularly supported by kings and princes, and on a par with Cows Week, where yachts designed and built in the yards around Clyde estuary regularly led the field. We have become prone to forget how great a maritime nation we once were, yet still are in some fields, and it was this thought which led me to think that the reintroduction of the Scottish Red Ensign for use by our vessels might restore some of the sense of identity and pride amongst the Scots who sail at home and abroad, albeit nowadays mainly for leisure purposes. These thoughts were echoed by Piers Baker, the head of maritime administration and registrar of British ships in the states of Jersey, when I asked him if Jersey's informal or voluntary Red Ensign had been successful, he said and I quote, we find it valuable in our advertising and in distinguishing ourselves from the United Kingdom and other members of the Red Ensign group. Abroad in particular, owners like to fly it as it is a clear statement of identity. However, it has not proved so popular with local boat owners who are members of the Jersey yacht clubs, as they already hold warrants for their club's ensigns. It is my opinion that were the Scottish Red Ensign to be granted a warrant, it would have the same effect in this country, and we would help enhance our maritime identity, and I'm sure Sail Scotland, the annual publication which promotes our magnificent sailing waters, would value it as a useful advertising tool to help promote the wonderful sailing, the harbours and marina facilities which Scotland now has to offer visiting yachtsmen from home and abroad. Finally, I must say I was pleasantly surprised by the number of signatures from across the world contained in the 531 the petition received, and of the 70 signatories who added their comments, the only one against the proposal was a member of a yacht club which already holds a warrant for a blue ensign. A small number of comments perhaps, but indicative of wider opinion on the matter. Cymru, I thank you for this opportunity to present my petition and commend it to the members. Mr McKenzie, can I say thank you for your evidence? Does any members have any questions? Jackson Carmel? Good afternoon Mr McKenzie. I was struck by a paragraph in your petition, if I may, in recent years flag etiquette amongst leisure and small vessels around our coast has deteriorated to the extent that in any day at sea you will see yachts and fishing vessels flying the red ensign, the Scottish red ensign, the salt tire, the royal standard or the skull and crossbones which was a very graphic illustration of the thing and it made me wonder what is the significance then of the ensign that a ship or a vessel flies. Is it less significant internationally that nobody is unduly concerned by it or is there a deeper significance to it? Now I wondered whether over time for whatever reason it was something that was very important in the kind of atmosphere on the waters at one time and now is less so because clearly if somebody's flying the skull and crossbones you would have thought if it was a matter of some concern that when you travelled into international waters somebody might be taking you to task. Sadly actually flag etiquette at sea has declined over the over the years it was when I started sailing in the 50s and 60s it was very held in high regard that you should always fly flags the right place right time and fly the correct flags according to which yacht club you were in or which country your yacht was registered in. As I say nowadays you go out in a boat you will find everything hanging from the back of a yacht or hanging from its mast even dirty dishcloths at some times and it is something that I personally find it rather sad that we have reached a stage where people no longer regard what they fly at the or sorry it's wearing you don't fly a flag you wear a flag at the stern of your vessel and if everyone was going about wearing their ensign or wearing a Scottish ensign I would be overjoyed but I would just like to see I would like to see something happening about it if I can extend a little bit about it the the the merchant shipping act lays down that there are strict penalties for not flying the correct flags the problem is there is no enforcement procedure to intrigue me because obviously if you travel abroad as an individual you have a passport and that passport is an official document and a legal document and you would be hard pressed to travel without it. You referred in fact to the merchant shipping act of 1995 and said that technically flying the Scottish ensign at the moment would would be illegal but I think what you're saying is that although there is a formal code almost a legally enforceable code at play nobody any longer regards it as being anything other than an informal guide by the sounds of what you're saying and I wonder there what is the significance then of the flag that you fly is it simply a badge of identification or is there some stronger legal underpinning when you're at sea or some guarantee or protection when you're at sea from flying what is the official ensign of a country the flag actually the British ships are supposed to fly the red ensign they may not fly at sea but they must fly it when leaving or entering port or when entering a foreign country you must fly the flag of the country that your ship is registered in and that is a legal requirement the French in particular are very very tight on which flags are being you know what flag is being flown in when you arrive in France and if you're flying a flag that is not your registration country of registration you're liable to be hit by a substantial fine by the French authorities as I say the main problem not the main problem with it is but the actual enforcement is it's up to the foreign authorities to do that and I understand from people who have contacted me personally that the Scottish ensign is now accepted by the Greek authorities with no problems at all and it has been accepted in fact one of the people who wrote into my petition said he sailed around the world flying the Scottish ensign and it was accepted by the authorities around the world so it is acceptance by the the nation state could turn around and say no that is an illegal flag and you will be fined for it but but that's actually the best way effectively the flag etiquette has changed because the international or the national view of it has become much more relaxed I think so in some countries yes and so what you are seeking effectively is to that roster of ensigns that would be regarded as being formally legal within the overall context that the Scottish ensign should be included that is as an option for individual institutions well in fact as I say can I say the only legal ensign at the moment in the United Kingdom is the red ensign nothing else nothing else this is what you wish it the Scottish ensign to be given the same level so in the atmosphere of informal etiquette it's being widely used you would now like to see it given the legal status of being a formally recognised ensign as as jersey has done with with their ensign thank you thank you very much mic russell thank you thank you for flying me to attend the meeting um I think George I must commend your persistence in this matter you and I think first talked about this some years ago can I make two points and ask for your clarification on them you say that you're not seeking to replace the red ensign am I right in thinking that the ensign that is used in jersey is only available to ships below a certain tonnage so it becomes not something that's imposed upon a large commercial carriers but actually is more of a a leisure and a small boat issue the actual the jersey the jersey informal ensign is only for vessels under 400 tons so their normal merchant ship their registered merchant ships still fly the red ensign they do not have the option of flying their own informal ensign it was mainly aimed at their leisure and small craft industry and I say pierce baker has said it has been it has been the proof popular that's where you most often see the the Scottish ensign as you know I've I've given you a photograph which I know you've used of of the ensign flying from a a yacht in Corfu Harbour and you see it quite often in other countries and it draws you to to the Salter but surprisingly one or two people have raised this as a matter of of undermining the British merchant fleet in reality if that 400 ton limit applies it wouldn't do that but also the British merchant fleet has done a pretty good job on undermining itself in terms of flags is it not because the registration of vessels is often not in the United Kingdom am I right in thinking that the largest flyer I think you've told me before the largest flyer of the red ensign is probably somebody like CalMac because large companies UK companies do not fly it they're often registered elsewhere like the the the largest cruise ships are registered in Bermuda or elsewhere yes obviously as part of my research for this meeting I had a look to find out who was the large flight the the red ensign flyers and Stena and CalMac come out top or I I find this terrible to say this but our largest cruise liner in the world the Queen Mary 2 is registered in Hamilton Bermuda and flies and sails under the Bermuda flag as do all Cunard ships and do P&O ships and cruise liners so in other words this wouldn't undermine the use of the red ensign and it wouldn't undermine the British commercial fleet so it's a win-win proposal at all no thank you Gonzalo Malik Mackenzie you really make me proud I'm I'm very grateful for the fact that you brought this to committee I don't really care whether it undermines anybody what I care about is the will of the Scottish people and if the Scottish people would like to have the flag they should have it and our government should accommodate it so I would support your petition and I think you know sometimes we make political statements but this is not a political statement this is something that we should have we have a right to it I don't say any reason why we shouldn't have it so good luck any other questions from members can I ask members for recommendations then please recommend to the Scottish government to consider it being adopted is that agreed by members I say mr mckenzie thank you for coming along today and giving evidence and the committee will write to the Scottish government asking that we make representation that it will be adopted thank you very much thank you gentlemen thank you the next item of business on the agenda is petition pe 15 for oh by Douglas fullland on the permanent solution to a 83 and the can I welcome his afternoon Derek Mackay minister for transport and islands if you want me to kick off you can be now okay I have an opening statement and then I'm sure I can turn to your many questions can I say the Scottish government fully appreciates the importance of trunk roads are guile and butte to local regional and national economy already this year we've seen the opening of the crean larych bypass and the pulpit rock schemes totaling over 15 million pounds which this administration has delivered we've also trunked the remaining section of the 83 from kenna craigd campel town in august 2014 and have already invested over 2 million pounds on this section another demonstration of the government's commitment to the area we recognize that 83 is a lifeline route which serves communities throughout our guile can tire and the aisles and we're acutely aware of the effect on these communities of road closures and inconvenience caused by diversions following land slides at the rest and be thankful we cannot stop land slides occurring but we need to manage the consequences effectively since 2007 there have been 24 recorded movements of material on the hillside above the rest and be thankful eight of these events impacted on the road at 13 individual places resulting in the 83 being closed for 40 days to date the Scottish government is keen to reinforce the message that our guile can tire and the aisles are open for business for that reason we have invested over 48 million pounds in the 83 since 2007 and that is why my predecessor Keith Brown set up the 83 task force in 2012 with the remit to oversee the delivery of actions to construct an emergency diversion route at the rest and be thankful to oversee the delivery of a wider study into the permanent risk reduction measures for land slides at the area and to ensure communications to wider stakeholders and ensure views of the wider stakeholder group are taken into account and to consider the options from the 83 trunk road route study and the green next actions the membership of the task force consists of representatives from various stakeholder groups within our guile including our guile and butte council mid our guile chamber of commerce msp's lachlomand introsyx national park community councils transport bodies plus tourism forestry and business representatives works then began on the local diversion route along the old military roads works completed in may 2013 and jacob's consultants were commissioned to carry out a route study of the 83 and to report findings to the task force a stakeholders consultation workshop was held in in vereri on 22 august 2012 with the draft 83 trunk road route study report published on 14 December 2012 the 11 options identified from the consultation exercise were sifted against the transport planning objectives six potential options were progressed to the appraisal stage as five options didn't meet the objectives a further appraisal was carried out in accordance with the scottish transport appraisal guidance which resulted in the red yellow and green options being taken forward red option was substantial lengths of additional landslide mitigation measures that's netting debris fencing and drainage on the existing 83 rest and be thankful the yellow corridor option was the construction of a new 1.5 kilometres long single carriageway 1.2 kilometres of which is on viaduct offset from the existing 83 and set at a sufficient level to permit debris flow events to pass below the viaduct and the green corridor option which is a new single carriageway along the route of the forestry road in the opposite side of the valley following the appraisal report that concluded that the red option offered the best performance against the assessment criteria providing a similar level of benefits to the other options for significantly less cost consultation with the task force followed and at the meeting of the 25th of February 2013 the conclusions of the study were accepted and the red option progressed the scottish government then committed funding of £4 million in 2013-14 £6 million in 14-15 and a further £3 million committed in 15-16 at the task force meeting of the 7th of July this year it was confirmed that the red option netting and drainage works were now complete the group highlighted that clarity on the long-term solution was key for stakeholders and the community following a very healthy discussion it was concluded that long-term strategy to provide continuity of access to the region would be improving the operation of the local diversion route and to continue to review and assess the effectiveness of the red option debris flow netting and drainage works the group agreed with this proposal as the long-term solution i continuity of access my officials are progressing these works on a meeting to represent and present the findings of the task force will be held in early 2016 in closing the Scottish government is acutely aware of the importance of the 83 to the communities of Urgyll, Kentire and the Isles and has already invested 48 millions from 2007 to 8 to 2014-15 this includes a spend of over 10 million pounds through the task force of which 7 million pounds has been invested in the rest and be thankful and upgrade of the local diversion route and which when adding to the 2 million pounds invested for the landslide measures that the rest and be thankful prior to the task force brings the total investment for landslide measures at the rest and be thankful and the local diversion route to 9 million pounds again through the task force 3 million pounds has also been invested in delivering a programme of works to improve the resilience and operation of the wider 83 the current financial year we've committed a further 3 million pounds to the task force programme which demonstrates this government's ongoing commitment to ensuring that Urgyll, Kentire and the Isles have that continuity of access and stays open for business now convener realize I've covered a lock ground I'm happy to turn to your questions thank you minister um can I ask the 40 days that the 83 has been closed is there an estimated cost what is cost local economy we have some information in bear in mind that is the cumulative days loss total um since the that date there there hasn't been a 40 day closure last incident of course was on October 2014 we have an understanding of the costs that are incurred as a consequence of closure and that's what's helped inform our benefit cost ratio um Keith would you maybe want to say a bit more in our understanding of cost yeah it's estimating that the cost of the Urgyll and Butte economy from previous landslides for an average landslide closure of five and a half days is 286,300 pounds and the range of landslide closures has been from two and a half days to 13 days so the range of cost ranges from 130,000 pounds up to 676,000 pounds for a 13 day closure can I can I just also say that it's one of the benefits of bringing the committee out from the parliament because we were actually able to see the area on the 1200 meter stretch and the old military road do you think the old military road is sufficient for a diversion route? For a diversion route it is sufficient but will require further works if we don't use the old military road or the local diversionary route then we would be left with the main carriageway if that is closed then there are other options therefore to have continuity of access we need the ability to use the old military route problems in the past for example in terms of is is it sufficient is how quickly can it be brought into operation it can't be used at night because of its condition and the local characteristics but it can be prepared to be put into use during daytime during light hours so with improvements such as having it in operation using the convoy system it can be used but certainly not at carriageway condition but I would rather have it in use so that people have that continuity of access than not in use and be totally reliant on the main carriageway which as we know can be blocked can I ask if there's any future plans to upgrade the old military road so it can be used both ways yes that's what we're working on at the moment further works on the old military road arising from the last task force meeting if the principles continuity of access I need an option or indeed a range of options so that we can turn to should the main road the 83 be blocked and so from that point of view yes we want to improve the old military road as a local diversionary route so that we can deploy it if required that means improvements to the to the road itself to the route itself we also carry out of course the checks before it's brought into use there's a convoy system in cooperation with the landowner as well and the reason we need to do that is to ensure that the route is clear for example if there's if there are animals of course on the route then we have to take care of that which is why we can operate it during the day but not necessarily at light so it's not ideal but it's something we're pursuing to ensure we have alternatives to a blockage equally the old military route could be blocked as well and that's why we have to have a range of options for the 83 thank you minister I can give you more information of course on what works are planned both what we have right now and what we propose to do once we have further reports that'd be helpful if you could give it to committee thank you any questions from members Jackson Gallop good afternoon minister that was quite a rainbow assortment of options they were costing 120 million 95 million 520 million 75 million 91 million what was it that first attracted you to the 9 to 10 million pound red option well I can safely say I can it wouldn't have been my decision at the time but I can imagine my predecessor would have thought that the and I'm sure been a good Tory as you are Mr Carlaw that the benefit cost ratio would have been of some significance to you if you can achieve the same kind of output for lesser costs surely that's what would get your attention as well yeah I don't disagree I mean we saw that we were there to this morning in very benign conditions I have to say we got to travel along the old military road I actually remember being taken along that by my grandparents in the 1960s before the other road was there but I I suppose given the benefit to cost ratio that you identify and having seen the barriers that have been put in place I can see that before any other more expensive ultimate solution was considered that ought properly to be tested but if if you find that it doesn't achieve the result that is hoped then really the works on an alternative road along the ground that can be used in emergency circumstance that really isn't addressing the main point and I wonder is the government's mind closed to ultimately having to have a back position in which it would consider a more radical solution and all those others which did the group that you mentioned regard as being at least technically feasible as opposed to maybe technically fantastic whatever happens in terms of the weather and the weather is obviously glorious today gives us the opportunity to say how beautiful the area is of course messaging is quite important here these significant events that have caused blockages and severe disruption to the area has impacted on the community but we must put out a message as well that this area is very much open for business and you are not taking your life in your hands when you visit the place and if you read some people's commentary that's what you would conclude so I think it is important to say we have an issue to address but the area is absolutely open for business and when these incidents occur they are few and far between but we must try and mitigate for whenever they occur even if there were further incidents fundamentally the benefit cost ratio wouldn't drastically change so the kind of options are the yellow options say from a range of 83 millions to 95 million of course these are in 2012 prices as well very likely to have increased since then so those range of different engineering technological solutions that the benefit cost ratio probably won't have changed that much if there was an increase in incidents I suppose it puts added pressure on but those analysis won't change fundamentally to your question is the government closed minded no we're not we'll always take the right decision in terms of what's prudent and effective use of public money where we are at at the moment is that the red option and I think over time we have to move away from the descriptions of the options of where they were because it's already moved on to a wider principle around continuity of access that what that's allowed us to do through the netting and the drainage is we know it has captured some of the slurry and the muck and the stones that have been coming down the hills we know it has been working the reason we know that is the nets are capturing are catching some of the debris which otherwise would have gone on to the road there has not been an incident since October 2014 but of course an incident can happen at any time there's further analysis geothermal work a range of work that's going on to understand where the risk is and where there's a likely reoccurrence but it is very very unpredictable which is why there is at no one point we can say that's what the problem is and everywhere else is fine so if you build a tunnel at that 500 meter range the problems resolved it's not as simple as that unfortunately because of the nature of the topography and the environment so what I'm describing is we take this approach of the measures that were planned any further measures as required and where there was consensus around the last task force meeting was to look at the alternatives we looked at the forestry track and the old military road the old military road whilst being far from ideal is better than the forestry track just because of the nature of the forestry track and the kind of hazards that exists for your your kind of average driver going going along it's far more difficult to navigate that than it is say the old military road with the supervision and the other measures that we put in place when that's brought into use if all of this fails then of course the government has to go back to the drawing board but it's not as if we think we've got a solution we've walked away we are at this all the time through our operating company our experts for their investments and the ongoing work of the task force. I wondered whether of those other options I think I concluded by saying was the one that at least seemed even if it was cost-benefit ratio wasn't great one of them that you felt was at least the most technically feasible of the alternative options if you had all the money in the world you could build a tunnel right through at massive expense and it won't be at risk to landslides because it's a tunnel it's underground of course it comes with other risk but if you had all the money in the world you would build a tunnel and you never have this but that's not really practical would never meet any best benefit cost ratio and you know other folk would argue wouldn't be great for the environment either. Then I would have expected you say that wasn't the most technically feasible so of the ones that were there what did you what did the group think was the more likely alternatively technical feasible of the options that were shortlisted? You are in terms of the June meeting yeah the June meeting very much focused on the red option i what we're doing what we're proposing plus other measures to get the old military road back into used to give continuity of access then we discussed a whole range of other matters following from that so we didn't go back to the other options we are very much focused on the red option as it's described plus what else we can do and that's where we're at the study and the work of the other options all predates the progress we've made now. Right so I mean I'm willing what the option that the government is is progressing to succeed because I can see that that is the cost benefit ratio and that would be ideal I'm just slightly concerned because I think what you're saying is that that it didn't there is no preferred alternative it would actually mean we would really have to go right back and start that kind of work again. No I think if any effort was to be put on to a second best option right now it's more on the old military road so that there is a more credible plan B or alternative to me that feels like the most likely response the other the other options I think. Too fantastical. Too fantastical or bring their own issues yes but that does I have to say from the task force seem to be a consensus around the red option but greater use of the old military road to be a sufficient diversionary route. I could just say that I think there is a consensus in the task force about mitigation the red option but also about continuity of access only being secured by having an alternative route that is usable all the time that's almost like a second carriageway so the old military road or the forestry road would become a second carriageway and there is also what I think I have christened and he's not here to defend himself the Donald Clark option which is to put a lid over the 1200 metres that cause the real problem as you see in some parts of Europe where any debris coming down would be deflected although because the military road is below it there are some issues there but I think that's where the task force finds itself. Could I just make two points and then ask a question convener. One is I think Councillor Filand is here, the clouds are here, local businesses are here, people are here from Inverary who are affected by these closures I think that the costing of 50 000 a day as the cost of closure is extraordinarily low I don't think anybody locally would recognize that as being the cost of closure and if those are the figures that have been calculated I'd like to see the basis of calculation and I think there would be very strong arguments locally that that was not the case the cost is much higher than that. I think the second point I would make is that the very grateful to the minister who has accepted the principle of continuity of access that is absolutely vital there must be no occasion in which you can't get into Argyll through the the the 82 or through any other comparable route and the continuity of access then demands that there is additional work done. The mitigation work has produced some results but rainfall has risen by about a third in the last 10 years it's helped the hydro industry and there was a new hydro scheme opened just along the way in Cerdew last week but it's not helped the rest and be thankful which is very much prone to it. So I think the question for I would ask the minister is accepting continuity of access and accepting that additional resource will have to be spent what is the time scale for change I think the task force there's at least one other person here who's been on the task force the task force argument has been that whilst consideration is being given there should also be work being done to get a resource together to allow this to move forward faster than it has done. Okay I can totally agree with Mr Russell's principle of continuity of access I don't want to be two politicians arguing over who actually coined the term but I think it was me in terms of the principle we both agree on it that continuity of access is important and that's what I've tasked my officials to achieve in terms of ongoing work I wouldn't want anyone to think that we're sitting around waiting for reports to be written up before we do anything I think I described government spend on current actions on mitigation which have been pretty effective but of course we can be subject to an incident at any point in time indeed some of what has been caught by the netting has actually been greater than in caused days indeed weeks of closures in the past in the 2009 incident so you could say it's good planning or luck whatever it is there has been investment there has been investment to try and mitigate the impact and that will be ongoing so I must defend the government to say that there's ongoing action through our operating company and our experts looking at the issue in terms of further work I'll ask Johnny to come in in terms of the reports that will come forward in January and that will focus on the alternative route particularly around the old military road and what I want to be reassured of as we head into winter and over now into autumn and as we head into winter that if we need to deploy the local diversionary route how quickly can that be done to have an effective impact so with that contingency planning happening right now as well as the further measures that we propose to take and then the January task force will be presenting with further information based on the discussions that we had in in the summer there are some who argued that we should put greater dependence on the forestry track but I'm sure I'm Mr Russell will be very well aware of that discussion that was just inappropriate and would you get blockage there then we present another self inflicted difficulty there as well. The track is possible to upgrade but it would cost a great deal more and it is still riskier at the top end and it's still riskier and there are still gradient topography issues that's right and I think many drivers would not be happy on on parts of that track and just so you're also assured that I'm not speaking from just a behind a ministerial desk I've been in an hgv vehicle on a to do an 83 to see what it's like and some of those more exciting points of the route not for the faint hearted but it helped make me understand some of the risks and hazards that go along with some of the points of the network but John ac you see a bit more about the timescale for further reports leading to the January task force thanks minister um yes in in july we obviously discussed what the next steps with the task force be and um we're transport scotland and our operating company various scotland will be looking at next uh first part is to review the effectiveness of the netting operations the red option itself so the first draft of that report is with us so we're reviewing that um and by the end of the year we hope to be in a position where we can take that to the minister and and present that before we take it to the task force after after the after the turn of the year looking at the old military road itself as a local diversion route we're looking at this in in two lights first of all we're looking to see engineering wise what we can do to improve the roads itself to make it a more usable resilient roads for operation but whenever an incident occurs and and even when an incident doesn't occur we're always reviewing our incident response procedures so it's feedback from the local community feedback from the police force feedback from bus drivers anybody what do they feel on that day is there anything we can do to improve upon that and that's led to a whole load of improvements since since the old military road came into operation so again looking for the time scales towards the end of the calendar year before we present to the task force at the start of 2016 we'll be looking at further improvements to the operation of the response plan for the old military road engineering measures that we can put in place to improve that and reduce the time by which people have to trans travel along the old military road and also the effectiveness of the national operations that we've done so far and we can share with the committee the projected spend of the three million pounds for this financial year what is due to start i think before the end of the financial years on the the strone the part of the put road that's being aligned at strone between the rest we thankful and in for airy and a lot of work is done on the road and i don't think anybody denies that there's been big investment and i certainly wouldn't go to the wall to dispute with you who started on the phrase continuity of access i always defer to you Derek as as being the begetter of such things but i do think there is an issue of timescale and a very strong one i want to i want to make that point very clear to the committee the last task force that the two task forces this year have been in january and july the first task force in january accepted the principle of continuity of access and was very keen that it moved forward the meeting in july was disappointed that more progress hadn't been made on alternatives but we accept that there were reasons for that if we get to january and we're hearing proposals for the next stage that's 12 months now this petition started i'm trying to remember when this petition started council file and might remember this petition has been in place for a long time the situation has been severe for a long time it is important that there is people are reassured that it's going to continue to be investment and progress with this within a defined timescale because that's what makes a difference if people don't think there is a defined timescale then they will begin to wonder what's happening and i think that i would want to stress that with the committee i'm not criticising the minister or the government i wouldn't criticise the scudish government for the the world but i do think a defined timescale is absolutely vital i understand mr russell's concern around this i know that if there is disruption on the 83 before the officials get to me mr russell will so he's been consistent on the importance of having continuity of access frankly and i would want anyone to think that we're waiting on reports if i get options presented to me as minister indeed i'll pursue them that take us to that principle then i will approve them if it's in keeping with what the task force has agreed we will not be waiting for january for ministerial decisions to commission work but what i am trying to do what i'm doing in consultation with the task force to give the task force which has a range of partners and representatives as outlined earlier to give that task force its place but i'm pretty clear on what we're progressing with and we won't be waiting for january to commission work everything that's commissioned is in keeping with what we've now agreed the task force important to hear what people think and also to present what we have done and i found a very constructive task force date to also share with me local opinion and some of the finer points that maybe otherwise i wouldn't have heard so there is no question we'll keep our foot on the accelerator so to speak pardon the pun to ensure that we continue to spend resources to try and support the area but messaging and that's why we have a communications group is really important around this as well to reinforce the message that and the area is very much open for business and in terms of the detail we're doing what we can to continue with that it is important to say of course the transport network anywhere can be disrupted at any time i can't guarantee 100% access but the issue here is is if their route is blocked and there are very few alternatives sometimes the ferry option but i need to ensure that there's alternative road options as well and that's where our effort is going convener the answer i would like to follow up to mr russell's questions is when would you minister like to see the work on the old military road being completed to allow that confidence there would be continuity of access if there was anything to happen on the 83 in the meantime now and the reason i see now is i asked officials when i arrived in under area today if something weather's wonderful today but if something happens for example tonight there's a ton for the worst how long will it take us to get the old military road operational and the answer i've been given from the operating company in transport scotland is we believe we can do it within one hour during the day it's been four hours in the past but the last event was it was open within one hour and that's the target i would like to set that can be operational within an hour but again that can only be during daylight hours because of the extra risks that take place at night so the answer to your question is i want to operational as a plan b as a contingency from now indeed it should have been the case before since we decided it but for the purpose of parliamentary clarity now further work will go into enhance its condition to go back to the convener's very first question you know is it up to a standard that's ideal no but it has to be up to a standard that it can be used as a satisfactory alternative thank you minister and the other question that you didn't answer in terms of mr russell's question i had noted it as well is the 50 000 pound average loss for the 83 being closed and the question i think mr russell was trying to get or the answer mr russell was looking for is where did these figures come from uh because you mentioned the 40 day closure uh that would have cost the in terms of those figures two million pounds but given the as you've quite rightly identified minister the wonderful weather we're having today uh means that we have a lot of tourists who wish to come to this part of the world wish to enjoy the scenery the hospitality uh and enjoy their time here but the figure of 50 000 a day seems to be quite low given that we have one or two international companies that operate on this side of the 83 and it would be interesting to find out how exactly that 50 000 average cost was worked out and whether or not we could get more detail and possibly more detail from the local business community as to what they consider would be the loss or their estimated loss if the 83 was closed okay i think i'm giving pretty comprehensive answers to the questions but for absolute completeness on the 40 days it was said by mr wilson was 40 days closure there's never been a 40 days closure it's 40 days cumulative closure from 2007 it's important for me to make that point because i can see that i accept that minister then based on but 40 days cumulative closure is a loss of business for 40 days for businesses in this area but we mustn't give the impression there's been a 40 days closure on this because actually because of the technology the response the services that can be deployed reopening the route is happening much quicker than maybe was the case in the past and that shows how we've become more alert to what the issues are and how to do it safely um as well i'm some of the boulders that have come down the hill if hadn't been caught would have been very very serious when they were when they were on the main carriage way fundamentally your point is i can go into some detail now and can share all the detail we've got as to how we arrive at the cost benefit ratio figure we'll have statisticians and experts that can talk about this issue till the queues come home in a far more expert way than i but i'm more than happy to share that information Keith will have a stab at it but i should also say i had commissioned earlier this year more consultative work with the local business community to establish just that what does closure or disruption mean to your business and your community and again i'm more than happy to share that work when it's concluded with the committee and with the task force so i haven't just relied on civil service figures or um operating companies figures or our experts figures around what a cost benefit ratio looks like i'm asking the community itself what does disruption cost you of course the key objective is to stop disruption minimize disruption but a better understanding of that has also been commissioned and i'm sure mr wilson would welcome that and Keith can maybe say a wee bit more about the methodology and if you want to probe that further um i'm very welcome to that but it's the same methodology we would use for other areas as well so it's not a figure we've plucked out of the earth i need to give you that reassurance thanks very much um what happened was there a review was undertaken of socioeconomic impacts of road closures due to landslides as part of the a 83 study at the rest and be thankful and the outcome from this review provided evidence in addition to and not in place of the standard economic appraisal which was undertaken using evidence from this review drawn from several key stakeholders the additional annual cost to the 83 economy from previous landslide episodes at the rest and be thankful are estimated to be the figures that i gave 286 300 at 2010 prices for road closures being for five and a half days over the year the average duration for the last six events sensitivity analysis shows that additional annual cost of the 83 economy from previous landslide episodes at the rest and be thankful are in the range of 130 200 pounds for a two and a half day closure to 676 800 pounds for a 13 day closure that's the economics i am not an economics expert but that's what the study says could i just clarify so you convener you then that response you said these were based on 2010 figures now 2015 has when will those figures be adjusted to take account of the current economic circumstances faced by many of the community particularly in 2010 just for example petrol diesel prices would have been more than they are now and food prices would have been more than they are now so the transport cost issue and also the other benefits that may come to the community with the road being accessible in terms of when they're exporting goods elsewhere in the uk and in the world and the costs of that because it's fine to say that we're based on that in a 2010 figure but unfortunately the economic world has moved on costs are higher and the loss to these communities could be greater if that's what you're based in these figures on but i reiterate the point that as well as that almost desktop analysis we are consulting with local business now and that report will be concluded and available for our consideration of the next task force meeting so we'll get the local opinion and can put in you know real terms or inflationary increases in the modelling and equally the modelling will also increase for the cost of other works as well as the costs of disruption so both would be helpful and happy to share with the committee of course thank you and so on good afternoon minister i've been told i'm not to give you a hard time no it's you feel free you sure no no uh on a serious point you know i've actually climbed that hill once when i was in the ta when you're a young lad and i've walked the the army road as well during those days the days when i was fit now i look at it and i feel tired but uh you know rather than this point being called rest and being thankful there should be a sign saying if you've passed this point you should be thankful it actually looks dangerous i'm no engineer i don't intend to be an engineer um and i don't have the answers so you know i'm i'm not criticizing anybody you're just simply saying local people who use that road on a regular basis are at a greater risk than perhaps tourists are or suppliers are so i think you know um hats off to the local communities who travel this road who know from time to time there is a danger of landslides and spillage on to the road and i also witnessed the the minibus traveling on the army road and as it came up to the end of the top the hill i could smell the clutch burning that's a small minibus not carrying a lot of goods and it had to go through its paces to get up that hill so the gradient is quite steep you may or may not wish to address that at some stage i don't know but what i do know is it looks very dangerous i think that um we really need to i mean i'm i'm i'm grateful in a in a sense that you say to me that you're not specifically waiting for the report to come in january if you can get some positive feedback before that you would want to engage before that that's very welcome comment indeed but i think if you're wanting to elade the fears of local businesses and the local community i think we need to be doing a lot more than what we're doing if i was living here and i had to travel that road every day i'd be worried mr mallik can i probe are you talking about the 83 itself or the old military road well both because it they go ahead and glove because if that closes the alternative then is to use a military road now the military road itself is is a difficult road at best of times what i'm trying to say is let's not put all our eggs in the one basket thinking if the 83 closes we can we can use a military road as a a temporary gap i don't think it's good enough in the current state i don't know if you're going to be able to try and put two lanes in it at at any given time let's talk about some bits being introduced in two lanes rather than the whole of the stretch it's not particularly big so i think as i say i don't want to give you a difficult time but what i'm saying to you very clearly is that i was very unimpressed with the the level of work done to date it doesn't make give me confidence that that road is as safe as it ought to be but what i think this is a good thing about the parliament getting out of Edinburgh or indeed members from Glasgow or even me and my own constituency of Remfrewshire North getting out of the central belt where every road is to a certain standard and understanding that different parts of the country have needs as well and i appreciate mr malik taking a view on the 83 again i say the old military road is not at the carriageway standards that i would expect for a local authority or indeed a trunk road it's not meant to be it's an alternative to be used in the event of a blockage and a diversion from the main carriageway of the 83 which is a different standard 83 is it a standard where and i know we've got issues with the decades of under investment in the roads network around that but it is a safe standard that said in terms of the the gradients in the topography with all the will in the world mr malik i can't change the topography and the nature of some of the gradients of course and other issues around the 83 or other roads but i say again i know you'd be unimpressed at the old military road as if it was a main carriageway it's not of course it's an alternative for use to ensure this objective of continuity of access if the main road is out of commission for whatever reason we have an alternative and to improve upon that we don't know where the next incident will be we don't know where the next slippage or flooding or any other issue may happen to be and that's why we're also trying to improve the access points for the old military road and to give mr malik further certainty and reassurance the route is taken by convoy it's checked beforehand it's done in a very safe and controlled way people aren't left to their own devices now that's what takes some of the time because it's one way and then the other way that all takes time but it's it's safe and it's checked and we try and minimize any risk that may happen to to exist and you will also know with your familiarity with glasgo that every road every form of transport but every road carries with it some form of risk and potential over disruption just yesterday i'd regret to inform you as if you already didn't know that the ma or this morning even was disrupted because of incidents in events it happens there is risk there is hazard what we're trying to do is to give alternatives to the issues it will face which has principally been the landslides that can happen at any point there is one point that i didn't pick up from mr russell and that was mr clark's suggestion around tunnelling at a point the premise of mr from memory from mr clark's suggestion was that there was a an area of from memory around 400 to 500 meters where he felt were the critical points that's where the incidents of landslides were occurring therefore if you remedy that point that pretty much solves the problem but looking at the detail of where the landslides have been where the boulder's been coming down it was much wider than that therefore that solution based on that premise didn't work i just wanted to to to complete that that other point and i'll regret completing that point because it's got mr russell which had a cover over it not a tunnel and that was to deflect material falling i don't think he was predicated on just of being a short bit there was that was to be a solution over a reasonable length of the category but but sorry can be right but from memory i think it was because he was under the impression that there were a few points that there were the repeat incidents and that was a critical area it transpires that it was much wider than that is is what the the information we got back so i can only say all that by way of reassurance to mr malik and i can i say on parliamentary committee on any matter that's important to any member you pursue it in any fashion you see fit and don't worry about going hard on me if you don't think government's doing enough i'm more than happy to answer for it but but i do can i make one final point i do you think it's a wrong message to send out from this area to the rest of scotland that that route is dangerous and and should not be driven on i would have to object to that this is a beautiful wonderful area of scotland with a thriving tourist economy and we should be encouraging people in and making their access easier and anything contrary to that message i think is unhelpful well minister you can't take the credit of scotland be beautiful god made scotland beautiful so i'm sorry i'm not going to give you that one but uh but in the meanwhile i says i want to come back uh to the the military road i hadn't quite finished with that as well in the sunset um the climb the with the climate change there are more pressures on our road because of the weather change and also with the change of lifestyle there's also more pressures because there's a lot of trade that takes place which is just in time which means that you know suppliers supply to retailers and it's at a short shelf life because they don't want it to be for any length of time so if there is disruption in supplies either from here going down or supplies coming up it means it hurts our economy it's not just only a matter of safety it's not only a matter of health and safety but it's also a matter of business and our environment so you know it's what i'm trying to say here is this is an issue that is not only about whether they the the road is safe or not whether we're doing enough whether we're spending enough whether the the solutions for it all i'm saying is that this issue is far more complex than we give it credit and not only that i think it really needs to be taken by the the military the bull with the horns and deal with this issue uh the what i saw on inspection today as i say minister i'm not impressed that's not to say that what's there is is wrong i'm just simply saying that as a as a as a road user who's had a good opportunity to have a good look at what i saw today i don't take it safe and you know this idea about frightening people scots don't frighten that easy so i'm not frightening anybody but what i am saying is it's unsafe and it needs to be seen too that's all i want to say thank you very much okay i actually um it wouldn't surprise you agree with you and your points on goods and perishables for example you're right that uh people need and products been brought into the area and it can be disrupted which is why the turnaround which is why we get the alternatives and the diversions up as quickly as possible we get roads opened and clear as quickly as possible so there is no wasting of time sometimes road closures right across scotland take time if there's been a road traffic collision and that's because the police have a function to carry out it's not normally the case of course if there's a landslide but it must be removed safely as i say some of these and i'm sure you've seen the images some of the boulders are massive and if a car was to whatever vehicle was to collide with that it would be absolutely catastrophic so it must be handled and removed safely and equally i've talked about goods coming into the area perishable such as um you know some of the the food produce as well as time limited must be transported quickly as well so i'm very aware of the haulage industry's perspective as well as residents and business as well so i actually totally agree with that point about getting turned around as quickly as possible is absolutely right i'm trying to get the roads cleared which is why i welcome the quick response that we have in place now i agree with that point and i won't debate back and forward about whether it's safe or not but i just say that this high powered committee of the scotch parliament if it says a road is unsafe that will be reported and i would just ask the committee to consider very carefully the message that it sends out by all means call for action but be very careful about the terminology that you use when describing a part of the country the same road so it's not that dangerous i know that i've totally resisted mr malik normally you're lobbying me for more resources for glasgo and this is the first time that you're not and it's not lost on me that that is the case and i'm sure that that shows the importance to which you attach to this issue any other questions for members um can i ask committee to consider reflecting on the evidence and information it received from the minister and the site visit today at a future meeting the minister indicated today so the committee can consider that and its further consideration of this matter can i thank the minister and mr mourn and mr murray for our attendance today the final item for business today is consideration of petition pe 1523 by jess smith giving the tinker's heart of our grill back to traveling people do you have any do any members have any comments like rossam i'm sorry to speak again except all three petitions i've encouraged the petitioners at various stages and i'm delighted could i say convenient you're here and the committee's here and i'm very grateful i think it was mr malik who first raised the possibility of you coming and i think it's been very helpful i was particularly pleased that you came to see the tinker's heart this morning jess smith and her husband are here and i think everybody is grateful for the support that this committee gave to the petition at a crucial moment and did something quite remarkable the historic scotland have never recognized the culture of the traveling people in scotland but equally they have never recognized the intangible cultural heritage of scotland which is a very important issue much recognized in other parts of the world never recognized in scotland historic scotland by now scheduling this monument which they have done recognizes the contribution that the traveling people have made to who we are now but they also recognize that in scotland we don't have to simply commemorate castles or big houses or battlefields we can commemorate the contribution that people make to build and to develop and to change the culture and the country and that's what the tinker's heart tells us about so i think there's a lot of gratitude to the committee to historic scotland to everybody who's fought for this but there's still more work to be done and i would like just to draw your attention as a committee to that you saw the site this morning you had to park in what was a difficult place to park you had to cross a busy road there is virtually no signage available as you saw it is possible with a very simple few changes on the site to create safe parking where the old road is to make sure that there is proper signage and to make sure that people now can have full access to this important site and i hope the committee will support that and certainly i'll be campaigning with the formidable jeth and all those around her and the tinker's heart trust which has now been set up in order to take that forward thank you i go along with all that Mike Russell says but i would go a stage further by advising the group that perhaps they want to look at the local authority to assist them in possibly the compulsory purchase of the land next to the site if the landlord is or the land owner is not being cooperative that would be a way forward and also scottish heritage and they should be supporting the group as well perhaps with the support of the local member i'm sure that would attract support i think it's very important that we enhance and take control of our heritage we don't want to lose our heritage i think it's very important and you know no heritage insignificant every piece of heritage that we have in scotland is valuable it's precious and it should be kept in our young be taught we need our own identity you know scotland is not about backpipes and haggis we have a lot more to offer the whole world not only ourselves so i i'm very supportive of the scheme convener and you have my support John Lawson thank you and far be it for me to tell mr russell to go and look at the official report of this committee to find out who suggested coming to enverary to take the opportunity to visit the thinkers but the the issue convener i think as a committee i think we welcomed the opportunity to come up and see the site in a glorious day that jess smith organised for us to see it in its full glory i think a lot has been done and mic russell's right that we've actually got recognition for the site by the various agencies in scotland but as others have indicated there is still a lot more work to be done on this site michael russell mentioned the access to signage the parking these are all things that need to be done to ensure that we actually make this a tangible heritage site for people to be able to visit safely because where we parked up today we were crossing what could be at times a very busy road very dangerous road and it is one of those issues that if we are getting recognition for the site we also have to get recognition that there has to be appropriate facilities on that site to allow people to fully enjoy the historic artifact that is there and i would like to think that while we've got this recognition that the site can be returned to what was formerly used for by the traveling community in scotland and that's almost the site of pilgrimage that many of the community took the opportunity to do that and as jess smith outlined in the original petition it was a site for handfastings and other celebrations births and other occasions important to that community so while i'd be happy to close the petition at this stage i'll look forward to a future petition from the petitioner to say then we need to now start working on making the site accessible fully accessible for those in the community and others who want to come and visit that site and recognise the work that was done by the traveling community in scotland over centuries thank you any other contributions from members um can i just say it was a privilege to be up at tinklers heart today jess um to see it in its grandeur in such lovely weather and i could see where your passion comes for fighting from it um and to kind of say well done for your petition and can i ask committee to formally close petition that concludes the formal business of the committee today um can i formally close the committee but could i ask members of public and we will be here to four o'clock to take any questions from members of public and how the committee works um and i can say thank you for the hospitality in the very area today the weather has been absolutely stunning and um it's unusual for our committee to come out in such good weather so um thank you very much and i formally close the meeting