 All right. Hello and good afternoon and welcome everyone to this afternoon's session on music in musical heritage of the Kathmandu Valley. My name is Amina Yakin. I'm the director of the SOA's Festival of Ideas. The festival theme this year is on, it's our inaugural festival, it's our first festival and we are dedicating this festival to the theme of decolonizing knowledge. Decolonizing means a lot of things in a lot of situations and contexts and therefore we are not assuming that everybody agrees on this particular definition and indeed we would welcome contribution from participants in all our panels with regards to what they think this means to them. With regards to our particular initiative we want to include a wider knowledge of Africa and Asia in the teaching and the research that we do. This is a research led festival and we are celebrating the work of our researchers and our collaborators and partners in the Global South with whom we work to make so as the kind of institution it is and the kind of work that we do. So I hope that you will take a moment to look at our overall programme which is a range of panel discussions, masterclasses and book talks as well as many more things. We have a debate on Saturday and a play as well so please do tune in if you can but this afternoon you're in for a real treat. I am personally looking forward to this afternoon's session. It is with my colleague who I have had the opportunity and great I think experience of getting to to know him at SOAS in the Department of Music and to learn from him. Professor Richard Brides has been researching the musical traditions of South Asia at SOAS for over 40 years and the other collaborator in this afternoon's session is Chouette Films. I've also had a chance to get to know the team in Chouette Films as well and this particular afternoon session is a celebration of the ongoing collaboration between Richard's work and Chouette Films and the heritage of Nepal and the local community music traditions and Chouette Films is a small company based at SOAS they specialize in ethical and environmentally friendly documentaries on social issues so ethics is the word that we are very much in tune with in decolonizing knowledge because that's a very important part of how we connect with heritage and the heritage of music in South Asia and I am delighted this afternoon that we are joined by Shashi Amathya from the apologies Shashi Chandra Amathya from the who is from the Mathina Foundation, General Secretary at the Mathina Foundation and he's a Chief Editor of Mathina Magazine and World Never Organization and advisor to the Pasapuchaguti UK. Apologies if I'm getting my pronunciations wrong his place of birth is Kathmandu and he is currently living in the UK and is here to be part of this particular festival and will speak and say a few words about the musical heritage of the Kathmandu values so can I Shashi welcome to the session thank you for joining us and I'll hand over to you. Good afternoon, can you see me? No we can't see you Shashi, I'll mute myself. Yeah can you see me now? Yes we can see you now. Yeah good afternoon my name is Shashi Amathya and I'd like to thank you all for giving me this opportunity sorry. I'm the General Secretary of Mathina Foundation which is based in London and the objective of Mathina Foundation is to preserve and promote the language and culture of Neva people. As an organization we have started off publishing Mathina and Neva Sociocultural Magazine. We are organizing a important ritual of young female in a year or two depending upon the number of participants and by annual literary event to commemorate our heroes. I'm not a musician but as a Neva I used to wake up every morning with heme singings in the area. We used to have faltsas it's a kind of raised house and those faltsas are almost everywhere other corner of the streets in Kathmandu where locals sing hemes every morning besides this even at home ringing a traditional bell and blowing a shanka that is kong with Vazhan early morning is a common practice in every household. So our daily routine starts with worshipping deities playing music singing hemes in the temples and Kathmandu Valley and the 12 districts of Corinth Nepal where under Nepal Mandal Nepal in short the people of this area were called Neva and Nevar in derogative term their language is called Nepal Vasa also known as Neva Bhai or Newari in derogative term again unlike other ethnic groups of Nepal Neva are the groups of different caste with different religions mainly Hindus and Buddhists sharing the same language and same culture they celebrate all festivals together with many minor variations Nevar shrines whether it be Buddhist or Hindu wouldn't be complete without a faltsa a raised house to play music and to sing hemes where they also use these raised houses for other religious activities and Nevar people are always busy celebrating festivals throughout the year we have festivals almost every two weeks and all these festivals are not complete without the music so different festivals are devoted to the different deities and there is different music to play in different celebrations even musical instruments will be different in the meantime different cosplay different musical instruments in different occasions like Sake, Bajrasari and Udaya Udaya that is Dooladar, Tamrakar they play Gula Bazaar and even some some Manandas also play Gula Bazaar and Naki played by Butchers and the Dapha group consists of different castes mainly farmers and Nevar people have Guthis that is Guthi Guthi is a trust to protect the cultural activities including music most of the traditional music are related to the devotional songs however there are other journals too like Raja Mati Kumati is the oldest love song of Nepal this song is almost 200 years old and it is still popular and interesting event about this love song that it was played as a national anthem of Nepal in London during the visit of Rana Prime Minister Janga Bahadur and that was in 1850 and similarly there is a popular ballet in Nepali Munamadan that is called Munamadan and that is also based on a popular Nevar song Nevar love song but later Nepal Bazaar Nevar language and the Nevar music started to die on the rise of Saha and Rana rulers and Prithvi Nala and Saha destroyed the hundreds of Nepali Bazaar manuscripts and Rana regime banned Nepali Bazaar from official use Mahendra Saha stopped teaching Nepali Bazaar in schools however some Dafa scholars survived till today they are musicians musical groups they survived till today because of Guthi's trust Nepalese media corporations like Radio Nepal Nepal television they never gave any space during Panchaat regime it is only after democracy in the 90s they gave a little space to the Nevar music language and culture the only government owned Nepal film corporation they never spent any penny on Nevar music Nevar movies etc Nevar traditional music is dying fast due to the lack of government initiation there is no government assistance and there is no any government policy to save the heritage heritage so young people they do not see their future and they are they are attracted to the other opportunities they also like to move to the foreign countries however new emerging technologies technologies are making music lovers to involve in their project there are few groups like Project Bazaar Nepal who are trying to revive traditional music the most positive side of preserving traditional music is the participation of females nowadays many women are learning traditional instruments however all efforts of preserving and promoting Nevar music are happening only from the private sector with their own resources and this may not be sustainable in long one for any group without the involvement of government that's all I can say thank you for giving me an opportunity thank you back to you hello hello and welcome thank you very much Shashi for that introduction to the general subject of Nevar music my name is Richard Woodis I've been working with musicians in the Kathmandu valley since about 1990 but last year September 2019 I had the novel experience for me of visiting the valley with Anna and Remy Sova of Shouet films with a view to experimenting with film technology for documenting Nevar traditional music including virtual reality filming as well as conventional film we enjoyed the support of Kathmandu University Music Department through its director Lurchen Rajal and the very valuable assistance of Shamsha Britan in Bogdapur and subsequently of Shashi Amartya in London who helped us with the subtitles and we're very grateful to Sirus for funding for this project from a seed called Fund the films we show today may or may not appear in very high quality on your screens depending on internet speeds at both ends but I've put into the chat links to the videos online so please watch them again afterwards especially if you haven't seen them in very high quality because the films have extremely high quality definition and sound so we do want you to enjoy them at their best so please do go and look them up again at your leisure if you have any comments or questions please use the Q and A function rather than the chat if you'd just like to say hello and hello to those who have already done so by all means use the chat but if you actually would like to ask a question or make a comment that you'd like us to discuss then please use the Q and A button at the bottom of the zoom screen and if there's time we would like to discuss any questions that you raise at the end I'm going to show a short PowerPoint presentation first to continue setting the scene as Shashi Amartya has already begun to do for the films and introduce some of the issues they raise which again Shashi has already introduced in some cases so I'm going to share my screen and start my PowerPoint presentation so what I'm going to do is briefly introduce the musical heritage of the Kathmandu Valley so a few words about the theme of this festival decolonization in relation to documentation I'll talk a little bit about the virtual reality technology in relation to filming musical heritage and I'll try to show you a short example of that I hope that the technology permits we'll then go to the main film which I will introduce briefly Guna Music for a Sacred Time which is a selection of the material that we filmed during our two-week stay in the Kathmandu Valley last year and then after the film the producer Anna Sova will give us some reflections on filming musical heritage so a brief introduction to musical heritage of the Kathmandu Valley Kathmandu is the capital of Nepal and I've worked mainly in the city of Bagdapur which is about 10 miles outside the capital it's a very historic city with splendid architecture temples and the former royal palace and the majority population belong indeed to the Newar ethnic group which Shashi has mentioned who speak the language Newari or Nehapal Pasha there are two religions Hinduism and Buddhism very closely interconnected and society is much divided into different social groups different castes different occupations different neighborhood communities and of course two genders and these are factors that music articulates and expresses musical heritage in Bagdapur goes back many centuries to the elite courts of local rulers as we can see from historic paintings and documents but today it is largely practiced by the farmers of Bagdapur who have preserved many traditions that would formally have been performed in the palaces of the Newar kings another musical community is the buddhist community a minority in Bagdapur but they use music in particular to celebrate the season of Guna which was the season while that we were there in Bagdapur last year which is a devotional and auspicious season but in general the many hundreds of different music groups in Bagdapur and other towns and villages of the Kathmandu valley they share some common features one of which is that it's almost always a group activity not a solo activity and for most people not a professional activity it is a participatory tradition people sing and play for their own pleasure and enjoyment and to express devotion to the gods and only secondarily if at all for the enjoyment of an audience thinking about decolonization in this context is slightly a challenge because of course Nepal has never been the colony and in that respect it contrasts very interestingly with for example India next door with its long colonial experience but of course the decolonization agenda is about decolonizing ourselves and our approach to studying our disciplines in my case musicology it's about recognizing valuing and seeking to understand different knowledge systems and music is a knowledge system albeit usually transmitted through practice rather than through language or writing the discipline of eth musicology which we pursue at Siris is about understanding different musical systems and how they're integrated with other cultural systems and processes and how individuals and communities experience their own music so Siris has for several decades now been at the forefront of decentering the western classical music repertoire and approaches for studying it which predominantly constitutes the discipline of musicology in western academia in this respect we we share a lot with our filmmaker friends at Chouette Films because we are equally concerned to facilitate communities in telling their own stories rather than imposing our own preconceptions and Anna will have something to say about this later I think an important fact to hear as Shashi Amartya has mentioned is that many music traditions in the Kathmandu Valley as elsewhere are in danger many know us like Shashi are concerned at the decline of musical traditions and the risk of their imminent disappearance this has many causes including social and economic changes in Bhaktapur the gradual population shift to Kathmandu for example but also natural disasters do not help earthquakes such as the massive earthquake in 2015 and I'm sorry to say the current pandemic consequently documentation I think is increasingly important for curating heritage for future understanding for supporting communities in valuing their own heritage and researching the history of that heritage VR filming is a technique that Chouette Films are developing for documentation of cultural heritage a VR camera is placed in the center of a space and captures everything around it all sides above and below and Chouette Films had already used this technique in the multimedia Yasuna project on Zoroastrian ritual led by Saras Professor Almot Hintzer we wanted to try it out in Bhaktapur for various reasons music groups there tend to face inwards towards the center of the group and this is difficult to film from outside the circle so another advantage is and this ties in very much with the decolonization theme VR allows the viewer to select what to look at it de-centers the filmmaker you can watch many times with different focus each time the 360 degree view also captures what is going on around the musical performance the context including both the social and the physical environment and finally one view to the VR headset which is the ideal way of watching a VR film it gives a very vivid sense of being present in the event so our VR example features a Dafa group and Dafa is a style of group devotional singing performed by men of the farmer and other social groups and it's sung by two equal groups of singers sitting opposite each other singing alternately and playing cymbals and accompanied by drums our VR film shows the Dafa group of Chandeshwari temple in Bhaktapur who sing every morning at 4 30 for a couple of hours before going to work i'll play a short example of a Dafa song or part of it focusing initially on the musicians looking right and left as the two groups of singers sing alternately i'll then play that again but turn around through 180 degrees to look at what's happening in the wider context people on their way to work calling in at the local temple blessing the crossroads with small offerings and so on so technology permitting i will now attempt to show a little bit of VR documentation okay it's not moving so i'll just have to reopen the file bear with me so close the application one more please service will be resumed in a moment so i will attempt to share my screen again i'm sorry that zoom is not allowing the video to move hopefully you might be hearing a bit of the sound but i can probably rotate the picture at least to show the whole group of musicians the two groups of singers with the drum players in the middle but the great advantage well one of the advantages i said of VR is that you can look all around and see the context here is the temple of Chandeshwari for whom the singers sing every day here we have passersby these ladies wearing traditional noir dress are visiting the temple to say their morning prayers and to make a small offering at the crossroads which is at the center of their neighborhood community and here's somebody on the way to work this platform is one of the many foxars that shashi shashi mentioned as places platforms covered platforms where music groups can gather to sing and play so i'm sorry the um uh vr from the park but please look it up on the internet via the link that i've given and um uh you may also need to download the gopro vr viewer in order to see it in uh full glory so um i'll go back to my powerpoint very briefly to introduce the main film so um the first part of the film focuses on a daffar group a different daffar group that's associated with the temple of dhattrae one of the largest and oldest temples in bhakta poor this group meets every day of the year 365 days of the year um barring emergencies such as coronavirus pandemic uh and the second part of the film focuses on the festival of punj dhan and the gullambajar musical genre this is a festival in which five buddha statues are carried through the streets of bhakta poor and they're accompanied by music groups of various kinds including the gullambajar drum and wind ensemble this is music played by members of the buddha community including as you will see um children and young people um and so we interviewed one of the young people um and this is included in the film similarly we interviewed the leader of the daffar group punj dhan and uh i hope you enjoy hearing from them their view of their own traditions and then just at the very end of the film you'll get a glimpse of the dhij festival which happens also at about that time of year in september also um and this is a festival celebrated by women of the brahman caste from katmandu who come to bhakta poor to celebrate the festival and they fast for the entire day um to ensure the long life of their husbands so this is in fact the only day of the year in which uh respectable ladies would be allowed to dance and sing in public in this way and it's interesting that traditionally they would sing songs in praise of the god shiva on behalf of their husbands but since the mid 20th century the songs have included increasingly social commentary and political protest so there's clearly an interesting story that's to be told about music and society there so um i'll turn to the main film and after we've seen the film ana will be here to share some reflections on her objectives and making it and her experience in doing so um uh We are not going to let them do what they want. We are not going to let them do what they want. We are going to let them do what they want. We are going to let them do what they want. The people of Bang語, the people of Juhu, they were all in the villages. They had no income in the village. They were all in the villages. Because of the villagers, I did not have a single penny on hand. The people of the village were not in the village. They were all in the villages. Guin э 책 ra thao mi a lui av ghàung fy hantá. Thín ó thín á tít áng, tít áng thin táng r спасибо áy mághí á sā refund ám á⚠ á rcipe ládi á xáa ŏn á á réi háuthéəaçãoaw rإá axéth wa Bangkok ám ágáá régh á áxéth álélisc átí sóngining á ámber áa axéth á苹á á局 á earette á nga á khe á sí Jiá á á á á á á á á á á á á áá á a thá á á á áə áu á á á2020 á á á á á á á á á á á á á á á á á á á á á derecho They were very happy. They gave a lot of attention to the daily life that they were going through. But Kathmandu people were very excited. They thought, let's try to live a happy life. They did everything they could to find the best life for the people in Kathmandu. And they were very happy to live a healthy life they were going through in Kathmandu. It was very positive for Kathmandu people. It's been seven years since I started working in the field. It's been seven years since I started working in the field. It's been eight years. I'm an engineer. I was working in the field for a long time. I used to work for the field. It was difficult to find a job. I was at home for two years, The last year, many people were assigned to work in the police station, such as the chief inspector, Ashtar. And then the next year, some would be assigned, like the chief inspector, so the charges were off, and the police wouldn't even speak to me. The police would not even take a moment to turn their head. It was hard. I needed to stop it completely. So, I went to themer, then I left. So, I went to themer. I was very tired. I was going to sleep in the hotel room, I had to rest for a little bit. I had to sleep in cold water. And then after that I went to themer. I went to my mother's house. Excellent, excellent, excellent. We are just wonderful, we are also great at music. I love music, I love music, I love music, I play the guitar. When things change, the skills change, and it's important. I love music so much, My dream is to be able to stay in Thailand for a month. I feel uncomfortable when I am in the middle of the night. I feel different when I am in the middle of the night. I am very happy. I am very happy because I am able to play music, music, and other things. I am very cultured and talented. I am also very happy because I am learning music from life. I was able to get a discount of 50 studs from the school. I was able to stay at the school for a month without giving up. I am from a family of three, and I was born and raised in a village called Apo Thaim. The village is a cultural area, and I was born and raised in a village called Baja Pinnipalai. I grew up in Pizovia, whereas I was born in Dokosh. When I was 7 or 8 years old, I was born and raised in Bresa, which is a place with identity and a passion for people. I grew up with the many parents of my family. I have been working on this film for a long time. Hello everyone. Thank you so much for inviting me this afternoon and for taking the time to watch the film and wonderful comments that everyone is leaving now. So as you have seen in the film, Nepal is a filmmaker's dream, stunning landscapes of the fire with diversity of colors, people and cultures. You can see easily how a place of such beauty, character and interest can easily be drawn into the one would say exoticized picture. Throughout our work at Shred Films, we learn that people have different experiences of the camera. Whereas in the UK and many other parts of the world, most people might have experience being filmed or filming others. We have to stop ourselves from making any assumptions about the relationship that other cultures might have with the relationship to in their relationship with film and photography. As a filmmaker in Nepal, we have to keep in mind that we have no knowledge of the kind of images moving or still that an individual in Nepal might have been exposed to in relation to their own culture or themselves. We have to be aware that anyone we approach for filming might have been able to feel exoticized or excluded by images in the past. Film has a long history of taking advantage of people. It is a compelling tool, but it is also susceptible to misrepresentation and affective in manipulating the truth to spice up the narrative. It is all too easy to overlook the importance of involving the people you are filming in a project and find yourself treating them as objects rather than subjects of the documentary. Many people who have been the subjects of film around the world might have never been shown the work or pay the royalties. So at the core of all this is the question, who really benefits from the entire endeavor, from the filmmaking project? Who is the film seeking to please? Who are the real beneficiaries? Is it the commissioner or is it the social actors whose voices the film strives to make heard? It is certain that filmmakers, the ones behind the camera, unfortunately often benefit significantly more than those in front of it. This is the tragic original sin of documentary and avoid falling into the same exploitative pattern. We try to let the social actors lead the narrative of the documentary. So instead of arriving with a preconceived idea of what we want to do or what we want the film to say, we begin by asking questions. So going to the power of Richard was a great privilege for us. As an initial trip, the main agenda was simply to meet the people, hear the music and find out what is it that they would like to tell us about their music? What is it that they would like to tell us about the role the music plays in the community? We did not come to the community as strangers, just the opposite. Our relationship with them was based on Richard's 30 years of experience and research in the town. We were working pro bono on a trip that would be a start of a great conversation and a collaboration. And on the first night that we arrived, we were welcomed by a special mention of us to the gods in the Daffy ritual. We were given flour necklaces and a bindi, which is the Hindu dot where on the forehead. And naturally all of this was followed by a great festive meal. We believe that developing a genuine and a positive relationship with contributors is crucial to creating a successful and a meaningful documentary. So we were absolutely thrilled to share many pots of tea, many meals and many chats with members of the community throughout our time there. And the trip would have never been the same. The whole project would have never been the same without the experience of going there. And obviously the exciting outcomes wouldn't be this stunning. So as filmmakers, we usually ask ourselves the same three questions in relation to documentary. That is, who is your audience? What are you trying to say? In other words, why is it important? And what would you like people to think, do or feel after watching the film? But in this case, it is not only our opinion that matters. Our role is to ensure that everyone involved in the project is welcome to participate freely and equally. In practice, this means that we do our best to give voice to people who might not otherwise have the opportunity to speak out. For example, young women or people living in isolated communities. We wanted to make sure that the community was equally involved in the planning and truly happy and committed to the project. Together we have considered countless questions such as who is allowed to speak in the film? Who is allowed to be represented? How are people represented? What do we should film and how? And what languages we should use? So through discussions, meals and spending time as a group, together we identified aspects of life that mattered most to the community in relation to music. For the community, music is about maintaining a relationship with the gods, expressing social identity and enjoying the psychological benefits of group participation. The community members interviewed each other with self-written questions developed around some suggestions and areas of particular interest from us. And we sought the community's feedback at every stage. For example, we have run a number of recording sessions, each with a different setup of microphones and then gathered feedback from the musicians as to which setup variation captured the sound in the way that represented the music they best. Also on the day of the Panjadan Festival, we asked to enter different houses to film the procession from different angles. This gave us an amazing and fully flavoured, rounded understanding of the celebration and there's no way we would have accessed those perspectives without the help of the community. So you might ask a question, why should we bother to organise so much time for conversations and questions? What's the advantage of trying all these interviews and feedback sessions? Well, I would say that thanks to this trip, we had a much rich intellectual understanding of the issues at stake and a much closer cultural understanding of the subjects. Together with the community, we have come up with more examples and more case studies that we could potentially draw on from. And we hope and believe that this collaborating and learning experience is hugely enriching for everyone involved. Broaching the big ethical issues of exploitation, inequality and misrepresentation in filmmaking is vital to creating a meaningful film which is positive for everyone involved. And we are learning a lot from the whole process. We're making ourselves reflect more our own ways of working as well as strengthening our critical thinking and our readiness to open up to conversations. This project is providing a opportunity for us to keep broadening our frames of reference, challenge the assumptions and include a more diverse range of people in our work at Shred Films. Filmmakers have responsibility for their films, for the films that they make. And we need to live up to this. We need to not only protect our contributors but also ensure that they benefit from the whole process in the equal matter. So that's probably all I wanted to say this afternoon. If you have any questions, please feel free to type them. But I think I'll pass on to Richard at this point. Thank you. Thank you, Anna, for those very, very interesting remarks. We now come to the final and completely unplanned section of this presentation because this is where we discuss any questions that you have raised in the Q&A. I'm just looking at the questions now and a number of them. There's a very interesting and perhaps problematic question about the internal colonisation within Nepal. And of course this is a very big factor in the history of Nepal. As I'm sure many of you know, the Kathmandu Valley used to be divided into three independent Nawar kingdoms. But these were conquered and absorbed into a wider empire of the originally Gorkali king in 1768-9. And since then Kathmandu has been the capital of a much larger area, the country that we now know as Nepal. So there are many different communities involved in this much larger political unit now. And certainly in the past the Nawars found themselves to be an oppressed community within the valley that they used to rule. That is, I hope, no longer perceived to be the case, but it's certainly a big factor in the history of the valley. For example, and this is where music comes into the picture, in the past, farmers in Paktupur were not allowed to be literate. The only education that they were allowed to have was Darfa and other musical genres. So music has played a very large part in the culture and identity of some of the communities in Paktupur for many, many centuries. But Shashi, I don't know if you would like to come back in on this and consider how outside observers like myself and filmmakers like Shwet films might deal with such issues since we are not internal to the situation ourselves. Perhaps you might turn your microphone on. Sorry, I didn't get the questions. The question just summarizes that while some don't consider non-colonialism to be colonialism, and some may not view the indigenous populations of Nepal as having been colonized, Nepal has had a history of oppression of its indigenous minority communities, including laws that made the Nehwar language illegal. How are you dealing with this legacy of oppression when working with Nehwar musicians? Well, you've already referred to Shashi too, the problems of maintaining the Nehwar language. Is there anything else you would like to say about this? Yes, we faced a lot of challenges during the panchayat regime and Rana regime. However, it is a bit relaxed and we can enjoy. But in the meantime, there are not enough resources I had mentioned earlier as well. Whatever we are doing is all from our own resources and which is not enough to support our activities. In Nepal, Richard, you already know that Nehwar culture is the most advanced culture and the Nehwar language has got all sorts of literary literatures. In the meantime, Nehwar music is also advanced music in Nepal. But during the panchayat system, even though there were lots of Nehwar musicians, popular musicians, they were never encouraged to play their music, play their songs. Now, because of democracy, we are doing a bit better than before, but it is not enough. And the main thing is the language that still we are not being able to use our language in administration. So that is the main thing that it pushes us back behind from the other people, especially from the Brahman and Baon and Chhetris, because the language, the official language in Nepal is your language, is not our language. So we are not competent to them. So we don't get the proper job. We don't get the government job. I mean, we don't have access because to get into the government job, it must be competent in Nepali language. So, yeah, these things still we are facing. Thank you. Thank you very much, Shashi for that comment. I think as outsiders to the culture ourselves, that we have to respect the history, but also respect the diversity of culture in Nepal. This is a source of great richness, of course, and to know our culture and music are not the only culture and music worth examining in Nepal. It's a question of helping all communities perhaps to value their own culture and also to be aware of and value that of the other communities with whom they live. Let me go on to another question from Kevin Webb on whether the Buddhists you featured in the film just go through the rituals, but don't practice Buddhism, e.g. meditation study of the sacred texts, etc. Well, I think it would be true to say that religion in general, whether Buddhist or Hindu in Bhaktipur is very much, for most people, is very much a question of practice. It's the rituals you perform, the festivals you observe, the obligations to commemorating the deceased, and so that matter more than study of sacred texts or practice of meditation. However, in the Buddhist community there are priests who are certainly aware of other aspects of Buddhism such as meditation and sacred texts, and I think it's true to say that anyone who has the interest can learn these perhaps more hysteric aspects. The form of Buddhism that is practiced in Bhaktipur and elsewhere in the Kathmandu Valley is certainly a very syncretic form. Hindus and Buddhists have been living side by side for centuries in the millennia in the Kathmandu Valley, and so it's not surprising that Hindus and Buddhists participate in each other's festivals, particularly I have to say musicians are quite likely to play one day for a Buddhist group and the next day for a Hindu group. So in a way there isn't the same watertight division between religions that we might assume would be the case. I'm just reading another couple of questions. Yes, a question from Krishali Shingala. A question, what more can be done in participatory filmmaking for the communities once the filmmakers, stroke anthropologists, leave the country? I'm glad you liked the film Krishali. So yeah, this is a huge question of course, and in a way I would have thought that what we can do for the communities is principally once we have left the country by disseminating the product of our work, like the films that we make. Anna, I don't know if you have any further comments on that, you've already perhaps partly answered that question, but would you like to come in again and say something about that? Yes, thank you so much. I think this is a question that keeps reoccurring filmmakers. How can we do our work better? How can we make it more meaningful for the communities that we work with? And I think now with COVID and obviously everyone being not able to travel, this is something that is high on the agenda as well. And I think the simple answer to that is very much training people as well to film themselves. You don't have to have fancy equipment anymore these days. Our mobile phones are sophisticated enough to capture decent footage. Do that for posterity. Do that while you can when filmmakers are not there, when exciting stuff is happening, where you know you cannot miss the opportunity to film something. And then once we have all this data stored and collected later on, we can work together on editing. We can work to produce a film together. And as Richard said, I would again emphasize the importance of distribution. I would emphasize the importance of events like this one where I can see a lot of people actually have joined us from Nepal as well. It's really refreshing to see that kind of thing happening that you know those events are not happening in London only for London audiences. I'm not sure if I explained enough, but yes I would love to hear your contributions as well. What ideas people might have. Thank you. Thank you Anna. Do any other panelists would like to contribute to that? Please unmute yourself if so. So if not perhaps one last question from Jody who noted the clarinet being played. I'm wondering if we could say a little bit about that. But yes, of course the clarinet and also trumpets were there. Western trumpets. The clarinet is a Western orchestral instrument. So what are these instruments doing in Nehwal culture you might ask? Well I'm not sure about the exact history of these instruments. But there are of course clarinets and trumpets being played in neighboring India in many wedding bands for example or similar wedding bands in Nepal. Equally there has been a long-standing association between Nepal and the British army which uses similar wind instruments in army bands. This connection of course comes through the Gurko regiment. So by whatever means Western instruments have arrived in Nepal they've been there for some time. The particular group that we were watching was a group of high caste Buddhists, traditionally goldsmiths and silversmiths, prosperous and educated. And they prefer their music to be accompanied by these perhaps they feel more sophisticated Western instruments. Lower caste Buddhists, the oil presser caste, prefer to use the more traditional wind instrument, the moaling which is a shawm, an obo type of instrument. So what we're seeing here is the replacement or the substitution of Western instruments for local instruments. So not as a direct result of colonisation but as a result of international influence of various kinds. And this is surely an ongoing process. I don't know if any other panelists would like to join in with that discussion. If not, then I think all that remains is for me to thank everybody for participating in this event. Shashi, is there anything more you would like to add specifically about this event and I noticed that you've mentioned in the chat that you will be open to further discussion about Neowar culture for those interested. So would you like to say anything finally? I'm just curious to know that you have included a scene of tea in the documentary but tea is Neowar culture, Neowar music and I'm just interested why it's there, why is it there? Yes, I thought you might have an issue with that because as I think I said the women who perform these songs at tea, who celebrate tea, are not Neowar women from Bhaktipur itself. They are women of the Brahmin caste from Kathmandu and other villages around who like to come into Bhaktipur to the temple of Dr. Treya which is after all a Shiva temple and this is a Shiva festival and so they spend the whole morning. Something that happens at this same time of year but since we were there, of course you can't stop filmmakers from filming something that is so obviously very beautiful and very fascinating and so I think they were a little uncertain about whether to include those shots just at the end but I thought it was worth including them just to illustrate that there is a wider context of music and culture in the Kathmandu valley alone to say nothing of the rest of Nepal so it's just a little insight into a completely different aspect which who knows in future we might choose to explore in more detail. Thank you. Sorry. No please. It's regarding Dafa, I mean Dafa is all over Kathmandu. There are lots of groups in Kathmandu, lots of groups in Patan, Bhaktipur but you are always interested about only Bhaktipur and Dafa. Well, in another life of course to investigate Dafa more widely and indeed I hope to do so one day but one has to draw a line somewhere to maintain focus and to get more deeply into the subject so yes there are of course Dafa traditions and many other Nehwar music traditions in Kathmandu and Lollipur and in villages around about from what I've seen often they are all fascinating equally fascinating as they to the Bhaktipur traditions but until recently when Gatwagna counted them back in the 1980s there was something like 70 different Dafa groups just in Bhaktipur alone so it is a very rich and diverse aspect of musical culture. Thank you. So I think it's time we should wrap up thank you very much to the panelists to Amina for introducing us to Anna and Shashi and to our technical support team in the background who didn't appear in front of the camera but we're very grateful for their support and reassurance and of course to everyone who helped us with the project which is ongoing and we hope to do more in the future so I have put links to the films in the chat I hope you've been able to see those and I'll just put my email address in there in case anybody wishes to contact me going in now don't hesitate to contact me if you would like to but for now that is the end of the event and thank you all very very much for attending I hope you've enjoyed it thank you thank you and goodbye