 Welcome back. It's time for youth and politics. My name is Karanja Alex. Of course, just to remind you, you can interact with us on our Facebook page on Twitter at Y254. Of course, you can catch up these interviews right after these. It will be a personal YouTube channel that is Y254. Well, this morning we get to talk about something that has been happening in the political arena. Well, in March 2018, the president Huru Kenyatta, of course, and the former premier Rayla Oddinga joined hands in the famos, you know, well-known, the handshake. Later on, they emerged the building bridges initiative that completed its work and its mandated job in the past few months. This morning we get to talk about the BBI report that is expected to be tabled in the next few days or other weeks. And we get to talk about the aftermath and what exactly it means. With me joining me, of course, on set are two gentlemen, Karibusana. Yes, thank you. It's great to have you. Let me just begin by introducing you Ogudasankarakayasu, our resident panelist. Yes. Karibusana. Thank you, sir. My name is Ogudas, you have said. And I'm here to speak these things, politics. I'm a student leader at the University of Nairobi, now the postgraduate students. And I'm here. Thank you. Postgraduate students. Yes. We need to salute you. Right next to him is Anod Endovo. Who is the Secretary General at the Day State University? Yes. I'm also a postgraduate student. Okay. I'm a master's in business administration. Specializing strategic management. I think I can be of help to him. We should compare. We should. Yes, we should compare. But probably you're taking different courses? Yes. We are leading, I think, in private. I'm leading in public. Alright. So that can be good? Yes. But at the end of the day you realize whether you're in private or public, all these issues we live in the same environment. And therefore whether it's economic issues, they affect all of us. Therefore it doesn't matter whether you are in private or public. Whether you are running a private organization or government or whatever. All these issues affect us. And therefore we must, all of us, dissect this politics because politics affect the three aspects of life. Alright. And that allows us now to get right into our topic of discussion. Well, we have begun quite on a high note with the discussion of the gentlemen becoming heated right now. Well, I want to talk about the BBI report which began last year and it began in March. The BBI task force has been all around the country and collected all the views from the correspondents from around the country. From the nine point agenda I want us to begin with ethnic antagonizing. Or rather let's just make it general. What do you think are some of the things that the BBI report will come as recommendations with? I think it should begin with you. I do not want to preempt what they are going to come up with. Because one is they will come up with a comprehensive report, a good report. Apart from what I need to correct you, it's not that they went around the country and collected all the views. It's a sample and it's expected. Which was supposed to be because they had opened the forum for everyone to come and participate. Exactly. However you know, we will have those people who disagree with those kind of things. You look at the things that they want to deal with corruption. You talk about security and so on. But you realize one of the biggest problems and this is my only fear is that we have good reports in this country. But implementation of that report. Therefore it doesn't matter whether they recommend. The only thing I think everyone will jump to and that's why everyone, all politicians have confused us is referendum. But if referendum will not solve all our problems. All right. We're discussing about the referendum at the tail end of the BBI discussion. Ogunda, what do you think about the BBI report that is expected to be given to the president and the former premier? I saw some papers on the local daily that these people are meeting today to do the last touches of it and then present it to the president. And now there's the fact of public participation thing that they went around the country collecting views. And this according to them is going to culminate to a referendum as they say, as you've said, we are going to discuss that at the end of it. I somehow have problems with our politicians. Even they going around of collecting whatever is just a formal thing of maybe doing things but they have what they want. So they won't tell you that we got this percentage telling us that we should do this and do this. So they are going so that it will get just to guess the authority that they went around. But what they want is what they will put in that thing. Yes. So it's politics. Okay. Let me ask this. Are you guys, again, the handshake or you are in for the handshake? Because it seems like, let's just make it general. Are there any positive impacts that we expect from the handshake? Of course. Of course. And of course we have reservation. But we can say that we have now that environment. What BBI has, not BBI, the handshake has achieved is that environment where we can discuss these issues when we could not sit down and in fact talk about it. So that's one of the positive things that has come. But you see, we also question the process and everything. You see, you cannot pursue something. You want to achieve the right thing and then the procedure and the way you have structured it has questioned. So you want to achieve peace. You want to bring us unity together. But at the same time, we are seeing divisive politics. We are seeing it's kind of us versus them. When you talk about it. We lose the meaning. We lose the whole thing. And when you talk about divisive politics, remember it's part of the BBI, the nine point agenda, which now of course I want to match with inclusivity. Do you think there has been inclusivity? No, I don't think so. Why would you think so? You realize that there is a particular region where people are complaining about these things. And therefore we are trying to be, the BBI is meant to bring us, is bridging the gap that has existed. So if even the commencement, when they have been going around because the process started when they were formed. Are you getting this? You realize when they were formed, these are people who are representing two interests. That is the right honor of the former right prime minister, honor Bailo Dinga and the president. And you see the composition how it's coming out. That's the beginning of it. You cannot tell us you want to bring unity. You want to include everyone in your decision. Inclusivity means even the minority groups need to be included. All right. Oguna, let me come to you. Do you think inclusivity has been the thing of the day? Yeah, there has been a problem of inclusivity since independence even before that. That some people, just some people getting appointments, getting government. It was even worse during Mui era where he used to say, there is yasambaya, my shambaya. So that if you are not politically relevant, then you don't get development. No, that is now the issue with exclusivity. You are not involved, so long as you are perceived to be politically relevant or something, then you don't get the government services. Look at some people who I don't want to mention who are campaigning in Kibran saying that if you elect this, we'll do this. If you elect this, we'll do this. And then the people should do those. So it's like they are not doing it because that person has not been elected and all that. No, inclusivity doesn't just only deal with tribes and all that. It also deals with regions and the pockets of this city and pockets of other towns and all that. All right. Now let me come back to something I don't want to flip about that we should appreciate and shake. It is important we appreciate and shake because since how long has it taken since we had and shake. We don't care of political wars. We don't care of people who are being hospitalized because of politics. We don't care the deaths except for the Gandhawa and that. I think since then there was somebody who died in Gandhawa and there were altercations between Aisha Yomu and Samudi and people. I think that is the first death I've had, the political death I've had since the handshake time. And before that people's cause of people dying and all that. So long as we have peace, and we have serene environment for economics even though, can you imagine Alex now how economy would be now that we are in this season of borrowing you have deaths and deaths and deaths and now there is also no political serenity like people are this political antagonism people are fighting. Can you imagine the state between you? Peace is not just because you are walking around and nobody is fighting. It's not just the absence of low and only. Because the economy alone is giving us sleepless night. It is, but now I'm saying that if we could be in this bad economic state and again we have political antagonism we have strife in this no political serenity in this country. We could be once off now. So we should at least appreciate that. Do you think we are stable? Yes, economically and politically. We are not. We are somehow stable politically. And you need to realize somehow stable politically but economically we are worse off. You need to realize one thing when I cannot put my food on the table you know a hungry man is an hungry man that's why we are going. So it's a dangerous part. I am not saying I want my friend to understand something I am not saying that we are good economically. We are saying we are bad but now if we also had a bad political atmosphere we could be dying now. It could be worse. We are bad but if there was no handshake if there was strife that we had maybe 2017 and all that with this kind of economic state we could be worse off. Now talking about that guys let's talk about even divisive politics as you have put it and you are talking about the economic status of the country yes we are in this kind of wage bill and the like we are talking about divisive politics in general and my question is to you looking at the handshake between the former president Moe Kibwaki and former premier Raela Odinga and now today we have the president Huru Kenyatta and then we have the former premier. When we were these two which one has brought peace in the country? Have you said there was handshake between Kibwaki and Raela? There was an agreement that was reached between the two of them. Or the Moe Kibwaki the Kibwaki Tasha thing or before the pre-election pact that was an Moe Kibwaki which was trashed immediately after election it didn't work but now you know the difference between that one that one was pre-election this one is post-election pact so it's like now the president wanted the peace to serve to serve his final term Has it been effective? Ya Have you seen the body size now the current body size of the president? Have you known Kosawa? Yes, peace of mind. No body is giving him sleepless nights The person who is supposed to give him sleepless nights who is the opposition leader is calling him my brother Are you saying all these handshakes about your political or whatever? That's what we are saying the problem with handshakes that have happened in Kenya are meant to cement some political agreement and some selfish interest and that's the problem we have because you realize this agreement are done mostly by a president who are in second term they have nothing to lose they just want to finish it peace Ya you go back to what Rayla had with Moe Moe was Miakaimation You get it? The one that Moe we are talking about in 2003 it could not stand because you see have other ambitions so if we agree with you even Rayla agreed with Kalonzo that we go to this election and then the next one I support you then do you know what they did? You break code you come up with NASA and therefore this handshake are meant for some people's interest and political or whatever Is it for personal gains as you said? It is Politics is a game of interest The only permanent thing The only permanent thing in politics That's what we are saying now The only permanent thing in politics is interest All others are not There's no permanent enmity There's no permanent friendship There's no permanent anything So long as my interest is being taken care of then we are friends I don't disagree with that It's not It's all trust Ogunda my point is very clear that what we are looking for is leadership but you are going to use political avenues to get into this leadership and we want people who can balance the two because if you can't balance the two then if you are purely a politician you will be lying to our people and that's why right now where I and somebody say national government why do we have devolution? And that's my point I want us to ask ourselves We have seen Taita Taveta County still in its process to impeach the governor Let's talk about Kiambu County still in the same process and the end result of the passing would be impacted other local residents My question is did devolution come to snatch away some peace or rather come to disintegrate the people from the local areas? I don't know You know this baby called devolution I don't know if we are pushing the baby to grow faster However you see we have devolved corruption we have devolved bad vices You know the vices we have taken into the normal mansion and that's where the problem is but you look at devolution I can tell you for sure it has some positives but some people are taking advantage of it Now look at Taita Taveta the one you are talking about they are arguing you want to give us money to go for benchmarking you are going to benchmark in some areas you don't know you know those are the things that we are talking about but if you look at you move around you look at some of the hospitals you talk of McQueen what they have really achieved you know something to brag about right now you follow the Kisumu County also they are doing cool things about these things so you realize but look at Shukana I'm wondering if I'm a governor and the biggest problem for my people is water let me spend 3 years just focusing on water because if you have water then agriculture then people's life improve then you don't need even hospitals those are the things but I think as a country we have our priorities wrong and that's the problem you look at the kind of infrastructure and we don't think the infrastructure wrong but look at our priorities are we justified to be right now working on infrastructure development or should we looking at the interest of the people first because of the economic status we politicize development development is politicized so such that you know that's when you elect me and it's not that's the reason why you elect me as much ya you are doing me like now if I let's give the analogy of driver maybe a driver driving you to where you should be and you've paid him and now you are bringing him again to drive you to that place so that's how we misplaced our priorities as Kenyans like we are it's like corruption has become an in thing in us it's part of us like practically part of us but just something you need to know about the development just what he's saying this is it this is the strategy when you come up with a new project you know that's the only way you can get money because the other project it's already structured and so on so that's why you can see a lot of dam whatever roads and so on and so on those things I meant for people to see for money now and that's what is happening that's why we must have new projects are these now leading to what you call corruption exactly but you see every time you hear of projects I don't want to talk about the dams at the Rift Valley you know how they end up they make people lose jobs are not even that people lose jobs because they have been involved in corruption and people say that you remember Kumbes tweet the other time about the face of onirotich and the standard and all that and then Kumbes says that you have like this man has brought down this country literally and then there's foot off of onirotich and he says you are using a wrong foot but arrive title and all that alright well that's okay but I want us to shift for just a minute and talk about the BBI aftermath well all these are seen so much of rivalry you know we have seen the BBI coming up and so much has been coming up others supporting BBI others not supporting BBI my question is will BBI be supported fully for its implementation come on bengal ready see people who are already again it's like I told you politics run Kenya and there are specific people who play these cards and then they say one and then millions of people say the same thing you know that in Kenya a word like now handshake handshake is a big word in Kenya because some too big politicians in Kenya shook hands and now everybody's talking about handshake talk about last week when people there was bedroom politics just because somebody said kibra is my bedroom now every paper every radio station TV station bedroom politics bedroom that was played yesterday was called bedroom between FC and God right here so politics it has people people who must play it so it's the interest of these people but just to say something about the same I think this is where the problem is the media religious leaders and other groups because politician you can be sure that's the work to politics so they will politic today tomorrow and the next day now what is the role of religious leaders in this country religious leaders I don't know what they are they do not help this country at all they do not shape anything because we are looking for groups that are independent that can give a voice of reason you see now media are the ones setting this agenda now they set agenda of bedroom now they have set agenda we are now thinking of Ruto vs Israel which is a next topic of discussion but before them there is something you mentioned about religion part of it and the politics have the politicians now invaded the church so ask to try and make now the church political no no they are politicized the church and this is the problem of the church I do not know why is it a question of the church or the politics it is the church the church has been monetized this commoditization of gospel commoditization of gospel so that the church leaders are there to grab some things as long as you can put them in pocket they are for sale but we have seen people saying that we don't want money they have come out clearly saying that money and these just bring it down every Sunday there is fundraising for the church and all the people who are invited are politicians have you seen CEO Safariko being invited have you seen it's a politician why it's a politician and then a politician when a politician sees a crowd for them they are happy because now and let me tell you a religious is a very serious thing that you can really kill for your religion and therefore politicians are very smart they realize when your pastor says who you and your mutu every person in that church will listen you can quote me for this the only unifying thing in all churches is money that is the only thing the uniform thing if you ask a common thing for every church for every religious organization is that they ask there but do you know that churches that have never allowed politicians and they are still there like my church is there doesn't allow much politics in it you can't be given podium like on a sabat way but the problem we are not coming out we are not thinking about these things because there will be it will be like politics they are indulging too much in politics in Kenya we will be looking at that we will be looking at that and we will be talking about the state versus the church next time but for now let's talk about well there has been the Ruto Raila antagonizing that we have seen through the Kibrabi election we have seen the bedroom issue we have seen raila saying what is really happening between raila and Ruto? you know for politicians it is just funny these people in the evening they might be meeting and having Nyamchum and as we are fighting each other these people were friends let's not forget in 2007 and therefore these people are lying to us they know what they are doing all of them understand the government and they understand the politics and you say is that how are we achieving the BBI and you can see you look at the raila's camp they are throwing stones to Ruto