 Good evening to everybody who is joining the fourth already webinar in the series of webinars. So the Luxembourg Foundation and me as a rapporteur for a new report of the International Trade Committee in the European Parliament on the trade and investment relations are organizing together. This series of webinars is organized and started under a common slogan, we are in a listening mood. We want to get knowledge, to get information, to get initiatives and thoughts you want to introduce to us concerning the future shaping of the trade and investment relations between the EU and the African Union, the different member states of the African Union and of course also to deal with such complex questions we are any time are meeting again and again. There is a contradiction between the need for development, the need for dealing with a real concern, daily concerns of common people at the African continent. There is of course also the experience of the economic partnership agreements between the African Union, its member states and some of the regions in particular the East African communities, the southern development cooperation, the ECOVAS, etc. So I don't go now in the detail because I want to introduce already the first speaker in our today's evening event and I have to make clear also and small excuse that I have to leave in some minutes because I have to speak in the plenary. We are discussing there the rule of law situation within the European Union when we are being a benchmark as we are thinking for other countries we have of course also to take control of our own reality and our political situation here. So I have to excuse that this by occasion which was not planned in the beginning of this webinar but I want to give the floor and just now to Hamidah Dedat from the Cossado in South Africa to introduce aspects of the reality in your country. What do you see as a necessary issue which has to be taken on board while we are drafting the report while we are speaking about the future relationship between the EU and Africa and not to forget tomorrow starts in Paris the EU Africa summit. A lot of expectations, a lot of rumors and maybe our today's evening webinar is enlightening us also to see what is the outcome of such a summit which is planned to be the start for establishing a new real partnership on equal footing between the European Union and African Union. So Hamidah the floor is yours. Good evening everybody and thank you very much. How good as well as the organizers and Rosa Latsenberg for this what is really quite an esteemed opportunity. As I was introduced I'm the executive director of Naledi which is the Research Armed for Cassatra. So I will contextualize some of the discussions or some of my inputs in the context of labor but more specifically as an African. So I must say when I was preparing this and I was sort of you've got about five or seven minutes to present you know to present to everybody as an opening remark there's so many key issues that one would want to choose. I mean I think Hamidah made reference to the EPA so there's a particular relationship in terms of how the EPAs came about going back as far as the gaps and the for Singapore issues and how many of us my son is 14 so he's the benchmark of how many of us actually contested and did not support or agree up to now with the EPAs both at the sonic level as well as within the continent and yet the EPAs have gone ahead. When one looks at the issues of COVID and I think any of us from an African continent perspective and from a developing world perspective I think the inequalities that are absolutely stuck between the north and south and if you talk about specifically within the EU and Africa it needs an introduction. I think when you look at the issues of migrants you look at people that are moving between the different continents you look at the number of Africans that are actually you know boarding planes, empires or sailing on water boats or rafts. If you take the issues around the Somalian pirates I mean if you look at what's happening in Nigeria so there's so many aspects in relation to the impoverishment of our continent. Now that's not to say that every single thing lies at the feet of the EU or at the US but I think the kinds of arrangements particularly when we come from the traditions of the WTO, when we talk about trade realisation being a mechanism to perpetuate the inequalities rather than actually as helmet indicated actually equalling the playing field then it becomes problematic. So maybe it should become a lot more concrete and just to say it's one specific example and I think it I'd like to use that to set the tone of how we can take the issues forward as opposed to the several other issues that I'd like to speak to one being specifically energy which is something I'm really passionate about. But I recently you know when I was preparing for this presentation I saw that the EU has made a commitment of 150 billion made reference to the African gateway or the gateway to Africa in terms of its investment. Now when I look up what does this what does it actually mean? What are the key features? It's talking about green transition for Africa, it's talking about the just transition, it's talking about sustainable development and decent jobs which of course is in relation to the SDGs, it's talking about health and it's talking about education and training. Now if you see that if you take the gateway as one specific or one major investment and if you look at the key priorities identified with all due respect the only country in the continent that currently understands or is even advancing a so-called green economy or green transition in South Africa and that's because we're largely responsible for coal. Cecil is the single point when you go and you look for greenhouse gas emissions, if you're zoning into South Africa you'd pick up secunda with Cecil being the oil refinery. Of course we have a contribution to greenhouse gas emissions by virtue of the fact that coal or fossil fuel is quite strategic in our economy and it's been so historically we suffer the legacy of apartheid, the communities in Malanga in particular but overall the GDP sorry the overall contribution that South Africans or that South Africa contributes to the greenhouse gas emissions is less than 1 percent. So if we the largest economy or one of the largest economies that we largely fossil fuel based why is the agenda a green agenda? Why is the agenda a just transition? Why is the agenda green jobs and green hydrogen? So that's not our agenda right and when you then link that to the Africa continental free trade agreement and you link it to the EPAs and you look at the key sectors as well as what it is that you're wanting to achieve it's not speaking to the true issues that we as Africans are confronting. If you take energy as an example and I indicated this is my finish if you take the energy case in point the the kinds of examples that we as Africans can learn from you as in the EU is that privatization of a public good is leads to no good. We can go in the question and answer session I hope I get the opportunity to expand a bit more but in October 2021 the devastation in relation to the escalating prices of electricity under a private sector control demonstrated quite specifically why or quite blatantly why you should actually keep your public utility in South Africa's Scom public. So we're now sitting with investors from Europe from the EU countries who actually wanting to build for Scom which is our public utility and wanting to support the unbundling and the privatization yet the EU countries and there's a range of countries from the UK all the way up I mean it's obviously Brexit but I mean during the time that it was still part of the EU as well as the other EU countries from France to Norway all suffering really harsh consequences of privatization of electricity. So these are positive lessons for us as Africans but instead what the Africa continental free trade agreement is doing is what is with the EPA is that doing is facilitating a process for neoliberalism and a different kind of economic colonialism that we don't we don't appreciate from a workers perspective of course when you go privatization it means retrenchments it means casualization it means precarity and it definitely means that we move further away from our SDG of decent work and sustainable jobs when we look at the question of the 4IRR that's then perpetuated. So if we if I'm not sure in terms of time but I mean I wanted to give a positive spin and I'm hoping that in terms of the discussions going forward and in preparation for how can we change the relations relations between Africa and the EU. I mean in the context of the Africa continental free trade agreement which many of us again who contested the EPAs those of us who understand the difficulties around an Africa continental free trade agreement being forced and I will that's my biased opinion it's been forced upon us when we're not ready for it. If you take the EU and you take the fact that you are customs union if you look at the extent to which you've come together as a region right all these all these 27 countries with a common identity a common understanding of free of a free movement free trade issues of rules of origin your relationship is a power block against the rest of the world that's solidified. So if you wanted to know when how could you actually support us as Africans is how would you teach us to become an EU in the same way that is parallel with the EU and I think Helmut that would then put us on the same playing field because the current whether you talk China whether you talk the US whether you talk WTO whether you talk bilaterals whether you talk EPAs whether you forgets the playing field has never been equal and the current perpetuation of any trade agreement including the ACFDA has taken us further away from the 2002 sustainable development goals as well as the STDs agenda 263 into in maybe 2010 seemed possible 2015 seemed possible it's a must it's not going to happen because the key and in fact the words that I wanted to end with is to say well I'm happy to be proven wrong I'm really I will be I will be ecstatic if you can prove me wrong if we do a matrix and we do a monitoring and evaluation process where you actually look at every single investment every single trade agreement every single investment agreement that has happened between the EU and Africa as a continent not just southern Africa and if you look at what the key objectives are both in relation to for us as Africans but also for you as the EU you will find those same indicators in the Africa continental trade agreement and it speaks to underdevelopment and impoverishment it does not speak to the development of African countries and it does not speak to equaling the playing field the rich are going to get richer the poor are going to get poorer and the and in we workers are concerned its precarity I mean 40 percent of our in our economies are informal in the continent and south Africa that largely had a formal base had a manufacturing sector we are deindustrializing we are losing our manufacturing capacity and we're supporting green hydrogen when the sun is free so I think we're really we need we need to change the paradigm and I think the fact that the some of the the resonance particularly in the energy space across the EU with the with the UK Labour Party for example demanding nationalization of electricity and starting and I think in Spain where there was a call for changing the paradigm I think the the issues in relation to climate the COVID challenges the issues of poverty and starvation particularly on our continent really creates an opportunity and I think the fact that we have an EU summit if we can really start change really be committed to wanting to to level the playing field I think there's several spaces and sectors and I'm very happy to engage at the most sector specific level on how we we can take that forward thank you very much thank you very much Hamida just quick information Helmut has a speech in the European Parliament so he will join us a few minutes later thank you for your use and for your insights and I would take care of the moderation now and I would like to hand over to Suet Adenos Man I'm very grateful that you are with us today and just some quick informations about you you are the executive director of the coalition for dialogue in Africa so the floor is yours thank you very much Arif I really appreciated the energy of my sister it is true that the coalition for dialogue in Africa is a platform for dialogue and debate that was established as a special initiative of the African Union African Development Bank UN Economic Commission about a decade and a half ago and it was meant to bring the views of the academia media civil society into the intergovernmental processes of the EU because as you know intergovernmental organizations a platform of politicians and diplomats inclusivity is a very complex matter so we keep trying to bring those views to them but I was asked by Helmut to speak to a little bit on the SDGs achievement of SDGs versus the African continent free trade I wouldn't agree more with my sister on how far we seem to be from achieving any meaningful impact on the lives and livelihoods of people whether it is this one this we call it in the jargon of the EU a flagship project of the agenda 2063 or any other one but it's worth trying it's true that the fundamentals are not even there I mean moving in the continent is still even an issue I don't even see how they believe that products will move on their own when they are not accepting people movements but beyond that the achievement of the goals and aspirations to improve the lives of people regardless of which agenda we're talking about because somehow the aspirations in one and the goals in the other seem to be aligned in a continent that continues to deal with an excessive extractivism and what goes where we continue to be the source and we know the destinations is not going to see any meaningful change happening unless the attitude and the partnerships are revised properly I like the fact that this particular summit is has been posed as one that is going to be somehow a game changer we are told that it is the the summit where that will present an opportunity summit of the EU and EU that will present a new opportunity for a new alliance renewed partnerships but the the definition of that partnership and what what we do with it I'm glad it's Southerners that are talking this evening this whole debate about we because we are very much into this pandemic steel the biotechnology company in Cape Town that announced this month that it has succeeded in reproducing producing its mRNA vaccine and there are programs backed by the F by the WHO but the experts are worried that the project will be blocked by Moderna patents now the question is always the same the the fact that we do not accept that ownership that ownership long-term ownership and capacity is what Africans will need for us to do anything but even when we get to a nation I mean something sparkles anywhere the feeling that we have is that it's quickly smudged and the expectation is that Africans whether it's the private sector will continue to be spectators of a proxy war between the west and the east now so the vaccines the indian or chinese and russian vaccines should not come because we that attitude that doesn't even recognize that there are scientists and researchers on this continent and manufacturers and that they need to be allowed to get into the game because we can afford to squeeze governments cannot yield any any meaningful change that so unless and until we recognize that any conversation that will evolve around the trade is going to be one that needs to first and foremost recognize that first month insight will be given by Africans to the east to to to provide the solutions and that and that they have to move into trial and error attitude we don't have to buy ready-made ideas products anything we cannot continue to import I mean capacity has to be imported um activists today where they are now they launched it yesterday in South Africa again saying that this deal that is going to be cut was it today or tomorrow uh among with with the government of of of rwanda and and and synagogue where germany is going to send containers where that are labs and they will produce onto our vaccines I mean that kind of things that doesn't even recognize that the acceptance acceptance of this vaccine will depend on whether or not the process that brings it about will be accepted itself is is tail mind bugging in 2022 I think that I will we will we will be able to listen to the remaining bit of of the debate but one of the major problems in trade we have is that we keep seeing resources we will say the Africans are in doubt but then natural resources that are not providing for which we're not getting real value keep leaving the continent illicit financial flows it's it's really flows it's it goes it has sourced as destination we know where it goes from and where it goes to and then we it has even been quantified uh it's continues to be assessed and and the figures are staggering we're talking right now the most conservative figure that the united nation acta than others are coming up with are talking about 100 billion yearly so a continent that is a net exporter of capitals a continent that exports natural resources without getting value for it and even when there is a little bit that is supposed to come it's as if a huge machine comes behind it and tries somehow to smash it the the inclusive framework of the OECD is one that we are really worried about we we keep being worried about things we are watching and happening and you keep telling them to the OECD secretariat but please you can't turn yourself into a united nation OECD is OECD we know what it was set up for we know it is a club of rich boys they cannot impose a game changer they are changing the international taxing rules without the without a proper say from the south the only two countries so South Africa is exception because they are also part of the G20 but the rest of the continent didn't have real say in it the only two countries that could technically follow up follow the conversation and and we drove from the from the deal Nigeria because they are big enough and Kenya because they were bold enough in this particular context and even that you just so we we we wonder I mean it's you're coming to do business you don't want to pay taxes to the poor you continue to try and so that that that whole thing that is going to this morning we were on another webinar and the main concern was that everything that is happening is actually happening in West Africa in the context of insecurity based on what we've seen happening in Mali and Burkina Faswan and Guinea and others and you say but that is what is going to continue to happen in the case of Mali it is nothing else but the youth whether it is civilian military the youth saying no it's enough no more extractivism no more just taking what belongs to others because it's not possible so the question is always the same if the feeling when you go to these discussions is always the one that as Hamida was saying the playing field has never been level well then I don't know who is discussing with who and and how are we going to get out of this kind of things so we will see and we will follow but I want to stop here we will be able to answer questions thank you very much Ali. Thank you very much Suat. I can see that Talmud is still busy and the European Parliament so let me just welcome Francis Davis and also a member of the European Parliament Joachim Schuster you're very much welcome in this webinar and we will we will continue with Francis Davis Francis Davis is from Zambia Alliance of Agroecology and Biodiversity and she will speak about the trade relationship between the EU and some African countries with a focus on agriculture and recommendations for change please the floor is yours. Greetings thank you very much it's wonderful to be here and thank you for the invitation so just to say my name is Francis Davis and I work with the Zambia Alliance of Agroecology and Biodiversity but I am I also work with a number of other food sovereignty networks and people's movements in Africa the Alliance for Food Sovereignty in Africa and the Cedar Knowledge Initiative in the South and so it's it's an honor to be here but I do I come with a lot of other other voices and so it's it's important to remember them and also to say that our movement really is working on on food sovereignty issues and particularly around the seed and biotechnology laws in our countries in in our in our sovereign nations but as well as you know on the continent but but we haven't worked we're definitely not trade experts and so I would just like to you know it's it's a privilege to be here with my other colleagues from from the continent and thank you for what it's already been raised um so I did have a presentation that I prepared but otherwise I could just speak to this um if that's easier rather than given the amount of time that that we have um should I should I share my screen or can I just please you can share your screen I think that should be possible okay um oh dear I'm having thank you um so just firstly I think what's really important is to situate this um conversation in in the context of the crisis that is hitting our countries um and we've had the multiple shocks that we keep on facing and Africa southern African countries are the the foundation is our food and agricultural systems and this really links to um to our climate agreements and the developments of our of our nations going forward and so agriculture is absolutely fundamental to this discussion um and what we are seeing is the continued push of an industrialist industrial agricultural system based on extractive models um that are undermining the very basis upon which we survive in our economies um are built and so so these these this whole system of agriculture continues to be pushed through the the trade laws and particularly we're seeing now with the African Union and so this is despite the fact that small holders we know um you know produce 90 percent of the seed used by um within within our countries and obviously this is the fundamental basis upon which then the rest of the food system and particularly women's livelihoods um then depend and this shapes the entire rest of the food system um and and really if we look at livelihoods in southern African region they are so dependent on food system activities so the context of agriculture and the type of agriculture system that is that is supported driven by these trade deals really then is determining the entire rest of the food system and all the livelihoods and our nutrition and our health systems that then go forward from this so it's an absolutely critical element um that is often not recognized for the the the node of control that it holds and and the seed the the trade laws we can we know are using these mechanisms of control to lock in extractive extractive systems that are privatizing inputs to agriculture and and making it impossible for farmers to continue their traditional systems and diverse the diverse kinds of agricultural systems based on appropriate systems in the local context that are fundamentally also about indigenous knowledge systems and women's livelihoods and farmers rights to continue the practices and and continue their mechanisms of control um to determine their own livelihoods um and food systems so within Africa we're just seeing really that um okay sorry I've spoken to that one already so the the biggest issue that we wanted to raise and just using this an example is um is the international union for the protection of new varieties of plants which was really a mechanism that is pushed through free trade agreements and we are seeing is pushed through the african union and the continental free trade agreement and it is just a very very key example of privatization of the whole fundamental structure of our agricultural system and so what we're seeing you know this is a mechanism that was conceived by um europe by and for european farming systems um and it's it drives intellectual property rights um and restrictive seed laws um that that then criminalize the seed systems of small hortic farmers um and actually narrowed the diversity of agro biodiversity array on the market and what is available to farmers so this it it fundamentally opposes farmers rights which is the basis of the the laws and the treaties that were that were foundation of what african governments fought for that that really realized that unless we protect the agro biodiversity um and farm's access to this we will it really determines the rest of our and so then just lastly just particularly on the african free trade agreement could you please turn off your mic particularly with the development of the continental free trade agreement and the various different processes that we've seen um is that there is a overdue influence by very powerful actors um and these are still funded through european countries and development cooperation agreements particularly for instance like agra that is shaping much the policy development uh within the african union and we saw this specifically with the development of this harmonized seed guidelines last year as well as harmonized biotechnology guidelines for africa um and these processes fundamentally excluded um the bottom up and inclusive processes that should have been involved in developing these kind of laws that impacted our countries and farmers so significantly um and and agra is a key player who's driving that and despite considerable pushback um from african movements um this still continues to be to be pushed um particularly and even endorsed by some european countries so the as my speakers have already said before the the liberalization and this really that there's this missing link between our own vision for what um our national productive policies um and this includes obviously agriculture and food um and really particularly in southern african context small haulers and local livelihoods will be worst impacted so there continues to be obviously this image of industrial agriculture that seems to be the broad solution proposed for our countries despite climate agreements and that these really industrial agriculture systems are the biggest driver of um climate emissions and unsustainable development in our in our regions and more nutrition and poverty and loss of livelihoods particularly for women um so and the same process was seen with the african the dialogues around the united food system summit um and the very strong agenda that was pushed for the for the green revolution of africa based fundamentally on this privatization model um so and again the the major worry in that we're going to see is that this common market is just really an opportunity for um a lot of european food products to flood african markets um and that's both food products and then the facilitation of um european um inputs to agriculture um systems and markets that might invest in our african countries but profits is extractive and local economies and local livelihoods are not are not developed um and again our states are left um completely under resourced um and complete lack of infrastructure for for the kind of development rural development that we need to see in our country so particularly in the light of the shocks that we're facing um so just to finish with the some of the recommendations that would like to leave is is really the the importance to produce the support to democratic processes to determine public policy and this was particularly seen as we've seen with the with the recent discussions in the au and the things like the development of the seed harmonization um policies and biotech policies that completely excluded um farmers voices from africa we need to support commitments that um food sovereignty and the preservation and promotion of biodiversity and the inclusion of autonomy of women and youth and these are particularly are founded and commitments that have already been made through the united making nations of the u and drop and u and drip um as well as those that were put forward by the commission world food security and the civil society mechanism there is a call for all epa's to be um frozen at this time and fair trade agreements um must be formed to delink the imposition of the ip regimes particularly like up off onto our countries and ip regimes like or bob are being pushed currently through these bilateral trade agreements despite the fact that we know that they fundamentally undermine the rights of food and farmers rights in africa u development cooperation must instead support discrete regulatory research and political productive support for farmers rights and farm and seed systems revise agriculture and trade policies to support these visions and food sovereignty and biodiversity protection in particular uh to stop the dumping of subsidized EU agricultural products on the african markets um and to support trade and tax investment policies that reverse the financial outflows and concentrate resources in africa to pursue his own agricultural development part thank you very much thank you francis um we are still missing helmut um but i guess he will be with us in a few minutes and now i think johan schuster is with us um johan schuster um i can't see you here are you anywhere yeah i see you know okay and um you were invited to comment to make comments on uh the speeches of our guests today you are a standing reporter for the us adc trade relations of the european parliament's committee on international trade please you have a floor for comments yes thank you first of all thank you for your contributions it's very fruitful for us to get such an input because we are normally in a european bubble and therefore we need contact with representatives of the civil society and organizations in africa uh i don't want to comment all i want to only mention some aspects which are also mentioned from new in different ways first of all is um i know that the economic partnership agreements are political controversial because it's a real it dominates orientation on free trade and i think that's a real problem but on the other side we have in mind have to have in mind that if we cancel only the e-pass then we will fall back to the wto rules that's no problem for less developed countries because there is the rule of everything but arms they can export to europe what they want except arms but it's a problem for middle income countries because the wto rules are much less favorable than the the rules of the e-pass for them and therefore i think we should think about how we can review reform and adapt the e-pass and i want to stress what i think would be necessary and we have especially with the static e-pass is a chance to do this because at the moment we have a review process is the only regional e-pass which is five years in force and ratified from both sides and therefore i think it's a good one point of time to look what how we can improve them i think the e-pass are in principle compatible with the continental free trade area which is planned from the african union because the continental free trade area is more an objective than effect at the moment and it's the aim of this free trade area is to increase inter-african trade and deepening the regional value chains in africa and similar goals former goals i must have to say of the e-pass and therefore i think we can combine them on the other side this will is only as possible if we really adapt and with the e-pass i think the main point is we have to push back the priority of free trade and we have to come to something like managed trade in different cases i think it is possible because the e-pass have more chapters than only free trade rules but only free trade rules are concrete and therefore the other aspects of the e-pass are not implemented and therefore i think we have some points which perhaps might be possible to discuss in the upcoming months and perhaps it's possible to find new agreements on this the first is we have that's without possible without an adaption of the e-pass we have to fully implement the chapters on the aid for trade concerning the rules of origin customs for melodies or product standards it's very important because it's a real problem for the trade at the moment and therefore i think it must it would help a lot if we improve our aid for trade but on the other side we have to find new points one is join projects to improve infrastructure join projects to combat an adapt to climate change and second point we have to look that we support african agriculture especially small holders small holder agriculture and i think there it's absolutely necessary that we come to manage trade otherwise you mentioned it before france is that's the form of the e-pass now the opposite for the facility dictating small holder farmers and this and we have to include a better felicitation and we have all our measures we have to include more the civil societies and real african companies in all aspects because i think it's a very important aspect of a real partnership that we include the interests of the african society and the people on the ground there at all we need an investment of an increasing of investment to support these projects the global gateway can contribute to this but i think it's not enough because it's not enough only to stimulate private investment we also need a huge increase of public investment to build up infrastructures otherwise we will not have an increasing private investment and all it was also mentioned in your contribution i think it's of utmost importance that we need a new initiative for a debt reduction debt consolidation and tackling illicit financial flows because this is necessary to improve the financial conditions that african states are able to contribute to their to facilitate their own development and that's often a question of the illicit tackling illicit trade flows and the problems with debt especially after the corona pandemic because there we have a worsening financial situation of many states and therefore it's of utmost importance that we work together in this issue and i think in this way it could be possible but we have to discuss it that the epa also they are at the moment very controversial instrument that could play a positive role for future partnership because it's absolutely necessary but i'm not sure whether the upcoming summit will give the right orientation there because my impression in europe is that the european side only looks at its interest and it's not really on the way for real partnership but a real partnership would be better also for europe not only for africa it's not a question of paternalism because the geopolitical change in the world is also in there therefore it's also in a direct interest of europe to come to a better relationship to africa because because we are in a competition with china and the usa and therefore we have to improve our relationship to africa but it's only possible if we look also at the interests of the african people otherwise we will lose the race against china and the us but the problem here is that i don't that i think we have in europe a lot to do is that also our governments realize this fact thank you so i don't know exactly if arif is continuing or as she picked up the debate and the discussion and the moderation of our very interesting um baby now but arif maybe you are you are starting and then i joined in yeah we have we had speeches from all our participants speakers and the command of joachim schuster we all we still missing um saskia also mvp and i would say that we can go on with um i'm not sure if it's a question but it's more like a command which was raised in the q and a box um helmut have you a can you look at the q and a box uh where is a question uh a command from francisco marie from port three veiled and if you like you can you can go on i would give it to you back the moderation okay so i saw that there is this remark um do you have already this remark or commentary discussed if not then i can read it out um so there is um francisco marie wrote for the veils has commented to the ongoing debate this evening that fortunately for the moment there are no bilateral trade agreements in african especially not um with the european union through ebaz which force any implementation of the upa ov african governments have refused since 2004 to negotiate services or special ipr clauses in the ipr for the moment exception is now the isa region the bapamata sky etc so just in the region where we are this evening and um the the u p union has put the u p o v clause on the table zambia for its choice has refused to negotiate any trade agreement with the u whether for goods no services being part of the isa so nearly all epas besides this sadek epa excludes trade and agriculture from liberalization so the free trade agreement are not really behind threats to african agriculture every trade is based or should be based on wto rules on the agreement on agriculture so that was a comment from him to the debate you had obviously until now and and if if you allow i would not have any listening to to all the contributions through this occasional coincidence with a plenary debate here in the ip parliament um i'm i'm asked a lot by media by by by certain journalists but also from some representatives from NGOs do you really think that the forthcoming summit starting tomorrow in paris will ground a real equal partnership between the opinion and the african union and if the words of uh french president marcon when and when he has uh introduced the idea of starting a new deal in paris with this eu with the six eu africa summit to really to push forward a different relationship between the european union and the african union and its member states um on equal footing so i mean this could be an interesting point for me if for example a representative uh hamila did that from the kosa in south africa with the experience we have in the in the long time practical experience of economic relations between the u still with the with britain probably but now even without and and your country do you really think that this is possible to re shape restructure the bilateral trade and investment partnership money is needed that we have discussed several times now in the last webinars on western eastern and northern african regions there is a need investments there must be a focus investment practice and we have worked out in our seminars that this must be accompanied by giving the african partner countries the ability and the power to decide by themselves in which way in which direction these investments have to um to put into the into the uh concrete economic development of your of your countries of your region so what do you expect from from the summit um hamida in this direction nothing absolutely nothing um i'm sorry if it's facetious but i mean you know the thing is money people say money's you know is the is the root of all evil but it can solve a lot of things i mean i think if you know if we just go back to a simple concept of humanity and in africa we make reference to it as ubuntu um you know where you treat people as people we part of a family your somebody else's child is your child so i mean these are fundamental principles that money can't buy and if you just go to the issue of covered you know the covered vaccine look at the number of people in africa the millions that are still unvaccinated now this was a pandemic that came out last year the hype around you know the media the statistics of people that were dying you know every single tv station you put on whether it was international media domestic media told you how devastating this disease was going to be it was a pandemic and it was killing people did you see the the world rally around africa no so you know fortunately for us as africans millions of us are still alive um and millions are still alive despite the fact that they haven't received the vaccine now you go to the to the issues of trade and you go to the patent and i think uh uh what i'm saying you then covered this to some extent so i would cover this to some extent the patents are still there some of the leading pharmaceutical companies rather than facilitating a process to build local capabilities and capacities to create jobs to facilitate livelihoods and to ensure that people survive begin to protect and up to now protect their profits if you look at the issue of food and food sovereignty i mean and and for us in africa it's a serious serious issue in terms of um livelihoods and food security and sovereignty sorry about that i i sometimes forget so if you look at the issue of food south africa currently under the the the world health organization most of our kids go to school malnourished so children are suffering from quashioca and this is just south africa that is supposed to be better developed what about the rest of africa right so this hasn't shifted the agreement on agriculture this hasn't changed the way in the africa continental free trade agreement especially if you look at the issues of rules of origin and how i'll give you an example a friend of mine worked for a for a company a european company that was based in south africa that was facilitating the movement of goods from south africa to southern africa brand new vehicles the person takes so we would take the car a couple of vehicles that has zero mileage they drive it around the block and it is registered as a second hand vehicle and is then exported as a second hand vehicle you've got appliances like kettles irons toasters that are supposed to be sabs approved right you're the the voltage in south africa and the mechanisms that we use in terms of you know in terms of electricity versus the systems in the other parts of study or even other parts of africa for that matter when we're moving them they get ticked as being fined to export via this company but when they get there somebody who's got no qualification there's no certification there's no certificate of approval or sabs approve approval to say this is safe someone has put a plug that is compatible with that country on their appliance to get to get even to get even more personal fish fish with lead was stopped at one point by somebody who worked for this company with good conscience but it was being shipped off to Botswana and to Lesotho and Zimbabwe from south africa and the and the capacity for africans our fellow africans in other african countries to control the border and note that this lead does not reach its kids in african kids in particular and the consequences of that being stopped relies on good conscience and i can give you tons and tons of examples of this so if you look at the issues of xenophobia coming from south africa the issues around i mean we had i think one of our our media reporters is actually being taken to task because he was he was supporting the position that there needs to be a job security um almost like job apartheid for south africans and that foreign foreign foreigners inverted commerce from the other parts of the continent are not supposed to work in specific jobs i mean this is horrific in the context of the african continental free trade agreement so the problem is huge in africa and it becomes worse when you look at the power relations between africa and europe or even the the ability to to um decide for ourselves or whether we decide for ourselves i mean it's not a it's not a neutral world there are powers at play and if you take south africa for example um there's a push for green investment yet our workers in the coal sector and the coal sector is not just fossil fuels in the energy space but in terms of the entire manufacturing value chain in a context where we have close to 50 percent unemployment 50 percent of our youth are unemployed and we're talking about green investment to do away with with fossils right and then the the so that if somebody asks was the south african government making this position has they have they given this position openly um have they gone through processes and engagements um has anybody seconded them no but there's money lots of money to be made and people can make the individual decisions based on greed so i think we need to think about moving away from the money and going back to humanity i think if we can really fundamentally realize and even and it's frightening and i'm saying to you that i don't know whether i'm not particularly hopeful because covid would have shown it the devastation and the importance of human life i think the covid pandemic was the mirror we failed so rhetoric is rhetoric unfortunately i don't mean to be crude but that's our reality thank you for this viewpoint there are additional questions one to joachim schuster from boniface marwanza the compatibility of the epa with the afc fta you have talked about is very questionable how do the epas fit the diversification and industrialization plans of the afc fta and another question also to you your ancestor freezing epas would not harm middle income countries if the u is asking in the wto for article 24 of the gut waiver that middle income countries could get full access to EU market as lgc so the the the eve preference um the you got already during the epa negotiations from 2002 to 2008 and in practice 2014 before some signed the epas so why not doing again to support the start of the afc fta for at least 10 years in this direction so these just two questions and maybe the third one i would also like to to to invite once more mrs edin osman to the question how do you see the the perspectives just described by hamida to avoid money-giving investments and more concentrating on human aspects and how the afc fta would be possible to be realized so is the situation from your point of view comparable between for example south africa the zahir sultan countries western african countries etc so so how really to manage such a project with the existing current economic realities in the different countries and regions at the african continent so who wants to start i leave it to you mrs edin osman you or you are pleased i can come in if it's okay um i think the the go the same goes for the remaining of the 13 flagship projects most of them are aspirations i would say at this stage um free free movements of people is far from being achieved we're talking about african union the capital of the african union is adi sababa you can't go to adi sababa today if you're african without a visa so there is a problem uh saying that we will we will open i will but then again the conversation we don't know where to start the situation is such that um most of the time we will say this is what was supposed to happen but then there is no political will where here is a situation where the political will was up front uh secured in the case of afc fta they signed it off in kegan up front 44 african countries are there to it of course we struggle a little bit with the ratifications when they came back home but then there has been no other project under the african union that was pushed to this extent at least from the political perspective now if the remaining of what is supposed to sustain this as hamed i was saying is there no it is not so with it is it going to change the lives and livelihoods of africans immediately absolutely not but is it one that needs to be sustained and pushed forward for absolutely absolutely um and i think that what with whether it is afc fta or any other of those flagship projects africa is trying to do is to depart from the partnerships that is based on that is really premised on the narrative according to which africa will perpetually will be perpetually in need um that is actually no more acceptable to to the african citizens whether we like it or not the expressed sentiment uh by africans is that africa has potential and that but that this potential is undermined by foreign driven policies so hence the political political will to push some of these agenda to correct at least the narrative and try to force a partnership that is very much not there but when i have the floor uh helmet i wanted to really pick it up where uh mr shuster left it the importance of the domestic resource mobilization and the fight against illicit financial flows and it's and it's main enabler corruption and to say that uh it's a two ways conversation when if we are really talking about partnerships since we are the eve of the summit um we have a two or three concrete things we are really worried about in that particular uh field one is i i was saying it uh at at the beginning when i spoke is the pressure that is being put on african countries to implement the oecd tax deal that is a very detrimental thing it may not be today it will be for sure in the coming less than a decade and one of the things that somehow european union decides to reinforce is something that is upfront not right is to also add a layer of blacklisting countries that do not accept uh to implement standards that have been muted through processes that we all know were faulty there is no inclusive framework that can be delivered by an oecd secretary at because there is no equal food and equal access to even uh these kind of processes now when one or two countries uh decide to dissociate themselves uh the writing to be done by the by is to to allow the countries that are seeing this as being a problem to carefully consider the trade offs and and and the best way to go about this but even when the content is good the pace at which it's introduced creates a level of mistrust that do not allow any constructive conversation to happen then it becomes an issue of now if the mistrust is going to happen even in planaries where negotiations are supposed to be structured when we come when it comes down to the citizens level it becomes a tautology that nobody wants to hear anymore because it's again the rich imposing their views on the poor and then here comes a summit where we're being told it's inclusive where we're partners you can be partner when you can unilaterally decide a set of rules the so-called inclusive framework is going to change the taxing rules international taxing rules when we know that the behavior of the multinationals that have been really implementing what we consider still to be a fully fledged colonial days way of handling matters through which natural resources leave the shores of Africa with for very little compensation and for almost no value to come up on top of that and wanted to cut a deal that will prevent countries to look at what these multinationals are doing in their own jurisdiction is really less than than than fair so the the question is unilateral measures by blocks european union being one we keep hearing our european union african union i am african i can understand european union i still don't understand african union african union is it a geographic grouping only uh is african union an expression of the african union or the platform of heads of states is african union african union commission one institution of course the executive arm but one institution there are many your own vis-a-vis the pan-african parliament is not functioning as a parliament on this continent so there is a lot but who need to discuss with and i really appreciate this effort helmet of opening up the debate and accepting that it is less than inclusive the processes through which we bring these flagship projects and the way we go about this we have been busy for example to help to try and help our our scientists the universities recently uh the on the african side african uh research university alliance arwa uh and their vis-a-vis in europe the guild university of research intensive universities in europe have been trying to organize themselves and are looking for ways to be heard i mean when you are african and you know that there is no way proper until proper research in every field is done you will not move an inch from the underdevelopment we are seeing so the question is if africa continues to be seen only as a potential market and not as a continent that has people that can eventually oppose this attitude well we are going back to the to case zero is to refuse to recognize that uh that ownership is part of the acceptance whether it is product ideas concepts if i do not want to hear what you're going to tell uh an african going forward manufacturers are saying the same manufacturers association of nigeria alone we're talking 3500 manufacturers you don't want to listen to that voice i don't know who you're going to listen to you don't want to listen to the 17 universities that are the flagship universities on the continent that have been trying to organize to co-create research outputs with their vis-a-vis in europe and all of them are coming up signing vice chancellor's rectors just for them to be heard they're not even at the table so how is this supposed to happen when those who are supposed to be at the table at least the voice of this european citizens they have a parliament that in that whole architecture of the european union uh is there the the same doesn't happen on the other side so i am we we are really worried about the few things and if we were to propose few concretings domestic supporting domestic resource mobilization as Joachim Schuster was saying is very critical removing pressure from governments to accept deals that cannot work because we can do that in plenaries is not okay because when they come out of the plenary nothing will work the same goes for the fight against corruption fight against corruption cannot be a matter of finger pointing at at the at the african official who is in poisoning the proceeds of these of of bribery and corruption land in in developing countries banks but most of the time will never name not even media will name they will name the person who is corrupt they will not name the mechanism through which he evaded that much money money that is that is taken never stays in the same jurisdiction more than 80 percent of the cases it goes beyond and the destinations are known so how come the same countries that are giving themselves a moral ground to say something to others will not accept that their banks are recipients of these of these things banks do not exist in their own they they exist and function within a jurisdiction how are these frozen assets the high-level panel on illicit african union high-level panel on illicit financial flows the recent in 2020 we pushed to get what we call the kappa common african position and asset recovery and return including so it's not only financial trade trade evasion for example we we dwell for years 10 years it took us to get everybody to accept that there is a difference between evasion and avoidance and it is as bad tax avoidance is as bad as tax evasion one is criminalized the other one is not that's why we talk about illegal and illicit we need to be able to tackle both frozen assets of african origin in european banks today if used they're saying we will create an expo account in african development bank so while the litigation is still on sometimes it drags more than a decade and a half precisely because the same banks to me they're culprits the same way that have been receiving these funds that know upfront that they are tinted accepting it will not return them they are part of the process that will be through which we recover these funds they determine what happens to them if you tell them deter that take this money it's frozen we know if it's money that is frozen means someone has been indicted it has been recovered from that person the return is the process that is lingering now it's frozen nobody is supposed to use that money it should go to a development bank we know who is this link if it's african origin it goes to african development bank in an expo account while the litigation is on if it is of the asian origin it goes to asian that kind of language took us almost 20 years to get all the way to the ui so the question is always the same it is not that we can't we can't do something this partnership is faulty there is a north south conversation on almost everything and so this dehumanized way of wanting to deal with everything cannot continue comes the time where they say no earlier I was saying people are looking at mali as if it was another it's it's it's a very unique coup it's the youth young ones civilian and military saying enough no more extract is in by france so the question is the same how where where do we get the right to be talking to anybody whether you are a government an institution how are we going to set standards when everybody is going to be mistrusting everyone else I wanted to I will rest my case here thank you very much no thank you very much for for the yeah for this dimension you have introduced now again into the debate and probably we all agree that he can't limit the the curve of debate on your trade investment it has to do with governance it has to do with a with a what to say a constitution of the of the transition processes in your countries so but before I conclude or before I come in I would be so sure to be asking because you had got two questions yes and I want shortly to respond to them first whether it's we agree to this at the end or not but we have to realize the political reality of this world and I only talk about the epa with the suddak states between Europe and the suddak states both sides have decided to ratify this epa and up to now I have not a serious demand that one of the six south african governments or a european government wants to cancel this epa or say we we accept it and we work with it and therefore we have as critical politicians we have only two opportunities we the first opportunity is we prevent implementation of the epa I think that's not a good idea but because we have no alternative there and therefore I think the second alternative is much better that we try to improve the epa and therefore I'm in favor for adapting new chapters and new projects because the framework of the epa is very wide and there are much opportunities if you look at the text I'm not sure that we will be successful with it but I think it's a better alternative than preventing the implementation and also in the discussions in the public opinion and so I see no majority at the horizon that there will be a majority in parliaments against the epa that's a fact and therefore we have to act with this fact I think second point is how we can why can I'm thinking that epa can be in building block also for the african continental free trade area the african continental free trade area is not a reality up to now it's only a target and we need a long process over I think 20 years or so at the end with many work to do that this that the african states will achieve this target and therefore they have to in the measures which are necessary to achieve this target are nearly the same what the the epa wants to do we want to promote regional trade regional value trade regional means between more than one state in Africa we need to we want to support the trade that means we have to look what are the barriers against for example infrastructure and so on and therefore if we are successful to realize this in a region in a regional context then it increases the chance that's all so possible for whole africa and therefore I think it's possible it can be in building block for the african continental free trade area but last remark I'm not sure whether it's really a good target such a free trade area for the whole continent because then you have a special division of labor in within Africa and there will also be winners and losers of this process but this decided the african states and the african union said we want the majority of african states want to build it it's okay but I think there are the main the same issues on both in both aspects concerning the free trade area as well as the epa's and therefore I think we can combine it we will see whether we are successful that's often our problem that we have not the majority for such a policy and I think we will see it in the next time on the african you summit because I'm not very optimistic that they will have really real progress concerning and building up an equal partnership of equals that's not mine I have not the impression that Europe is knows what or that Europe is on the way to this we are unfortunately we are nearing already to the end of our today's webinar because time is running as I understand there would be a lot of other aspects to be discussed I think very very very necessary and very very interesting and challenging to all of us I only wanted to say that just coming back to to the last issue on the epa that Jane Nalunga from Ciantini is with us from Uganda and she informed because we have discussed it shortly last time that there is a demand by the government of Tanzania that they not have agreed to the epa with you on the east african community so the different positions of countries in these regional networks are continuing and of course that is a question how to build up then a circular economy at least in the region which is establishing better conditions for for for constructing a self-reliant economic development in the interest of the citizens and in defending the environment so that I think is is very important here and I would just give all the three panelists two minutes more to make a summer summarizing if you want if you wish you know all that we have recorded this webinar you can also have access to the recordings of the the three other webinars we provided already and so that we have maybe an equal access to try to understand what has been remarked what has been ideas what has been initiative put for the Europeans being in the listening mood a lot of I would say headaches for rethinking how we can shape also the parliamentarian debates to press on the commission to press on the county to press on the government of the member state to change its attitude and so this is our task and therefore I would say it is also the task of all of us to press the political deciding structures the parliaments and the governments to change the attitude in organizing a constructive relationship between member states of the opinion the opinion and african and all 54 african countries inside the african union so I just go around Francis you want to come back into this final round thank you I just wanted to just say particularly on the last comment when the saddock trade relations is um you know thank you the point really investment in infrastructure development and the thing is those really is that public infrastructure that is benefiting people's spaces um public infrastructure for the local economy for public housing access to better healthcare and the thing is though is a lot of these decisions are being made by international cooperating partners in our countries and they exclude local grassroots movements in the conversations around who determines what kind of infrastructure where money is flowing from cooperating agreements particularly from coming from europe and then seeing these coming from the saddock trade discussions as well and these decisions are made without then the consultation of grassroots organizations and people so they're really important but it's just again in speaking to the to the power dynamics there and so so thank you these points have all been very very useful but it's just then the mechanisms of how these are these these trade negotiations happen and so I would just really even within our countries is is the discussions around particularly like for the saddock trade relations is the better efforts to make inclusion of of people's movements in grassroots organizations in country to bring them into these kind of discussions thank you thank you who is the next one so you want to come in once more shortly well mine is to really thank you yourself the I think this has been I followed only another one among this in the series so really thank you for what I consider to be a very important convening and we do hope that we will see something changing I think it's always started with with dialogues at the level we can we can properly and honestly converse and this has been open frank and and quite inclusive so really really thank you we do hope that the two things that we are we wanted to not to see happening so that the future trade relationships are not hampered the OECD tax deal and the current resistance to to the sharing of IP rights for the COVID-19 vaccine with Africa will be will be really dealt with quickly so that we're not left the people are not left with a bitter bitter things bitter I would say sentiments that will because whoever we are wherever we come from when these things happen they stick so we do hope that we will we will see better days going forward thank you very much everyone thank you and finally I give the floor to Hamidah did that thanks very much so you know I'm filming I must say when I started doing work on trade one of the most devastating realizations is when people used to say that a European car in terms of subsidies is way more than what most African households survive on with many of us or many African people surviving on less than a dollar day I think if the EU and and this is I mean I did put a challenge to you earlier saying that if you really wanted to talk about leveling the the playing field then ensuring that the mechanisms for the EU in the in the sense of the EU are becoming a reality and that the ACFGA can be can can be an all encompassing agreement that was the one challenge the second one was the issue of actually doing a a monitoring and evaluation you know a matrix to look at what the impacts and consequences have been but I put a third one when when when an African family can actually own the cow of Europe and when when the agreements on agriculture the subsidies can be can be something of the past then I think we're really being serious thanks very much thank you very much and you are here you want to come in once more or no okay you are you have already spoken yet and so then I want to thank all of you for for really participating in this as I guess very lovely and enriching webinar I want to thank all the visitors and participants in in the webinar as usually I have to say we have a very experienced colleague former colleague with us the former head of the International Trade Committee of the European Parliament and with Markov who is following this webinar series and I I hope that we get some input from him about the impressions and the proposals what to do with that and I want to thank very much the interpreters making it possible always to to understand each other to to communicate into the into the public life and I would say maybe commenting the last comment from Hamid that maybe the third point would not be that then the African are sitting in European cars would be the to be achieved aim but that we are together or organizing a public transport system which is giving everybody the full the abilities and opportunities to move wherever she he wants to go and by that also to avoid to repeat certain mistakes in the individualization of of this infrastructure and momentum but that is maybe already the next debate and so I have learned through all the four maybe not a lot and I hope that we are staying in contact probably I come back to all of you with certain questions etc when we are finalizing our report and of course the report is one thing but to shape the reality is even much more necessary and important thank you very much all the best stay safe