 That's good timing. I apologize for the the ding in public yesterday. I yesterday I was hit by a dagger Actually, I was hit by a tanto, which is a wooden pretend dagger in practice when My our sensei and I misunderstood each other and I walked under the dagger as it was coming down when I wasn't supposed to Okay, sorry. I only listen to like Let us it so you were here by a dagger. Yes, but you're okay. I'm just fine. It was a wooden It's called a tanto. I keto has three weapons. It has a dagger a sword and a stick The the tanto the bokeh and then the Joe and I didn't used to like weapons practice And now I really do because there's like especially the Joe the stick. It's like as tall as your armpit if you're standing It's so cool the stuff you can do with a stick. It's just so cool and there's throws there's a whole bunch of really fun things and and So anyway, we were doing practice and I I got whacked on the forehead Other than that, I'm good. How about you all? Yeah Oh, yeah, I go out. It's kind of okay. Yes Are you feeling like you know, I'm an SRE for everything in here And today like we have like a global outage for a feature for the last four hours. So, yeah, like excitement Is this I'm always torn though because you know, there's different kinds of theories and like Sort of like like incense You know the excitement of being like 30 people in a room like trying to figure something out. Yeah Although they are very tiring So I feel a bit guilty sometimes even it's like, oh, that was cool, but we shouldn't do that again actually So, yeah Yes, that's a doubt. So my my dagger to the shape of like an outage today. Cool I You know a long time ago in the beginning of my tech career. I had Something that was sort of similar, but not nearly as intense It was basically our clients could call up with questions at any time And then we would have to answer those and some of those were more urgent than others But it wasn't like a team exercise where right this minute We have to fix something because something is broken. It was never that so yeah, I'm I the same thing here I just opened up the chat and I was like, oh, wait, there's stuff here from before I got in It's nice. I'm glad I'm glad that Chitzi has one thing. I like better than No, right. Yeah I mean, I worked on a really project and like pms were like Showing people what happened before they joined. Are you crazy essentially? But he has a lot of languages, right? Exactly exactly and I'm at the top of the hour I'm expecting someone to show up that I will need to bounce to so I may have to leave at the hour There we are Things that are on people's minds. I guess a planning for the year I'm still following on that thread So I guess individually Another fellow cheap Yep To which This is sort of my plan for the year. I'm sort of locking it down now, but I'm trying to be a little more organized in the way too many things That I want to get done and want to do and also a little more action-oriented about not just wanting to do things But trying to get them done So So yeah, so that that's so I'm very interested in how that fits into what anybody else is doing Pete and I are already Collaborating on different parts of it and some parts of it involve upgrades to massive wiki Bentley you've already done some things that fit in here like the Presentate that Neo Neo deck or whatever I call it in that list We've already started working on and this just means how do we push those things further along and possibly get funding for more Open source modules and stuff Yes, I took a tissue a show loop, but I haven't read it recursively still which is like part of the charm of that list And yeah, of course, I'm particularly interesting like share notes across tools You're one of the you're one of the people in that list. So Yeah, you yeah, definitely and I done some some side progress this week Not enough to showcase something but hopefully we can shoot for like next meeting if people are interested like to show something Just quickly cool. I can you can do that and a I guess also a There was something else. Oh, yeah a pattern languages Yes But I guess I don't know like nothing specific right now except for Let's do more of those I guess but like a maybe I you know How to apply pattern languages to the other projects? I guess how they I should I don't think I've put much on that page yet except for here's some pattern languages that exist But there's a couple different angles to that one of them is You know the pure Gothic pattern language community is alive and well right now and they're I'm on there I'm on their list. So I see some of their traffic Others are less lively, but that they have bodies of work that not enough people know about so piece of this is just that instrumenting a second piece of it is how might we create some pattern languages and Pete were you in the pattern language workshop by like a year ago during pandemic with me? No Yeah, well in the GM one or no, there was a pattern language workshop that some pattern language builders I can find who it was It sounds familiar. I think I might have been I'm gonna raise my hand on the same topic, but okay, I can Anyway, so I was I did a workshop on writing pattern languages So the second piece of it is about hey, are there pattern languages that we could create around the things that we care about here collectively? which Could be around tools for thinking could be around open content could be around anything and then third is What I was awkwardly calling instrumenting or maybe activating or whatever the right word is? Patterns within pattern languages, which means some of them are very amenable to turning into code as an assistant Or something else to to make them super easier to implement and the example I use here is from liberating structures of the pattern language about facilitation There's the pattern one two four all which basically involves some choreography wouldn't it be cool if that was a zoom app and Wouldn't it be cool if there was even a meta facilitation bot that you could plug into zoom So as a junior facilitator you could confer with a greater collective intelligence housed in the pattern that would then say hey It looks like you could use one two four all right now. Would you like me to help you do it? And then if you said yes, then the software would break people up into the right number of Breakouts name the breakouts put prompts in the chat do several other goodies, you know since since it's software You can do a whole bunch of really cool stuff. Anyway, that's that's one example with one one pattern in one pattern language I think there's a bunch of other things like that that are low-hanging fruit to turn into Useful tools to level up everybody's game facilitating designing cities buildings. What what have you? And I think that chain is interesting from hey, here's some distilled wisdom to hey, here's a pattern to hey, here's a Linked it to reality back where people could use and apply that pattern And if anybody thinks of a better name than instrumentation Tell me now because I know that instrumentation in the software world typically means adding adding triggers and other things to your code so that you can actually troubleshoot right so that you can debug and That's not and that's not at all what I'm what I mean by the term. So I'm borrowing poorly Yeah, I mean it goes to be a bit operational icing So my difficulty place it says that it's not there is me but yeah, but I think it also like I Mean with with a caveat of the of the different Well, it is an okay idea. I think Yeah, I think all that yeah, I mean just as well in like, you know, I guess Conventions to communicate patterns like the patterns for for like creating patterns So I think of the weak healing custom as pattern, I guess right and like Like that, you know, like textual patterns, I guess And how they can encode the relations for example, this is something that I will be interesting discussing also in the context of Massey wiki You know and of course like for example, like how do you say this entity has to do with this one? right in using weakening some arrows or you know, like like a visual language to some extent Yeah And there could be patterns for how to use hashtags. Well, you know, that's basically meta metadata meta tagging There could be a bunch of interesting patterns in our space. So So maybe a thing for us to do is to keep that keep that loop going in the background so that we as things pop up We're like, oh, that could be a pattern candidate Right. Yes, and then it would be great if there was a page that we shared that was like Hey pattern candidate ideas where we could just drop that and I'll know that we'd put something there It does seem like the perfect use case for a wiki where we can talk about it and have a bunch of options Don't it. So so I will start I will start a page like that in the relate wiki And share that back on the FOTL matter of Channel on matter most So I can do that Maybe I'll go I've got a friend Me make a new new level here. Yeah, that's even better I've got a friend John Abby Who's an an old wiki person like me? So I Think this is gonna be a massive wiki It's currently a massive wiki and We we kind of know what it's it's starting to come into focus what it's about So What it's about is gonna be between a couple different things including pattern languages Systems maybe quality without a name Somewhere around there. Maybe a few more things. So I'll put a page Notes page from yesterday And Right now it doesn't have a web version most massive wikis have a web version and a and a git version we're Starting this one on Codeberg instead of github because we want to start moving away from github But our standard web publishing system doesn't integrate automatically with Codeberg just github and get lab and Bitbucket So I think it's kind of too early to I Because we mentioned pattern languages. I wanted to mention, you know that Superluminal is kind of coming into focus It's a little bit too early to just say much more or do much more than that Unless folks want to hack around with a massive wiki with us One of the one of the concerns that John has actually is that massive wiki is still hard to adopt it's still hard to onboard Getting the the authentication and Get stuff set up It's it's not it's a small number of things, but there's still technical so you kind of need a Technical guide to get you over, you know 15 minutes of stuff 10 minutes of stuff Yes, so Have you thought I don't know how this deployment of a new machine wiki works like do you have like a Docker something like Docker file. It's You don't need any software actually like or there's there's no the the hard right now we we kind of rely on get and For anybody who uses get it's like. Oh, it's easy. You know, why is that a blocker? For a person who's never used get for a person who's not a developer who doesn't have any understanding of revisions control systems and stuff like that and For somebody like get itself is not well packaged so there are pack of things of it, you know, there are Developer friendly ways to bootstrap get on your machine, but they're developer friendly and they're not, you know muggle friendly and And it's not it's not a big deal even it's not, you know, it's I guess We're still kind of trying to to Sort out what's the the most easy way to do it or that the least scary way to do it Which are actually two different things kind of And then we can still run in New users can still run into to gotchas. So we haven't characterized all of those and and resolved all of them I have to say this is very much precisely what also Affects the hour Yeah, so so this is like the I guess on the github hosting side or you know spin up a box That has like a massive wiki editing AI UI. Do you have an Another another odd thing about massive wiki is we are We are notionally tool agnostic in practice. It turns out that we're all using obsidian So So that's another thing So so another another thing that's unique to massive wiki is like we actually don't care what tool you use Here's a list of tools that you could use and that's not very friendly for you First of all, it's very funny because It's not unique because everything you're saying applies to the hour I go and and massive wiki here. Yeah But this is a great opportunity. I mean, I'm just very excited because it seems like you know Are coming at me from the Angelo patterns or otherwise We probably could identify like one or two things we could work out on together Like it will just be perfect alignment honestly. Yeah. Yeah That would be lovely. Um, I you know to to address the get thing real quick Um, and maybe the obsidian thing real quick one of the things with obsidian is it's it's becoming this beautiful ecosystem for pkm And every time it gets a little bit more complex it gets less user-friendly and it makes makes me really sad I mean, I'm really happy as an obsidian user And it's really frustrating to see any tiny bit of complexity added to it because it's already a complex tool And it's it's really it's it's getting to the point where it's not fit for you know, non non technical pkm users unless you're doing pkm and you want to sit down and Learn obsidian for a couple weeks with nick milo or or whoever, you know obsidian is hard to use um, so anyway, I I have a A dream system Thing, you know written down on roadmaps. It's called opal um and opal with opal, uh opal Kind of like obsidian but different um so, uh, the idea with opal is it's Kind of like obsidian, but much simpler. It doesn't do much that obsidian does and it has It would have a get built into it. There's a javascript get um get library that You know all all javascript get library. So it's like make an atom out of it Yeah, that sounds right. So make a you know make an atom electron app that You know that has some simple editing and has javascript get built into it and you just download it and run it so Um around is it okay if I I have one or two more bullets or do you want to jump in? I had a comment on what you just said, but it can wait uh so so anyway, um, I was I john john had a little bit of a biased view of massive wiki coming into it because I know that he used to be a developer He's kind of moved away from being a developer, but he knows he knows how tech works So I thought I would take him the faster but scarier route to setting up massive wiki and And after that he's like, okay, Pete. This is too scary for my non-technical friends Who we might want in superluminal. So I spoiled him a little bit or spoiled something but anyway In the conversation with john and me I came up with an interesting idea for a massive wiki Massive has an old acronym that that the word massive comes from um You know i'm going to try to hit return Here at the right The original acronym is M-a-s-v-f Markdown shared version files this this ends that ended up being you know, this was the original organizing principle of massive wiki And each of those is important and and it it has stood the test of time well so I was like, you know What if we told new users Who we didn't want to like flat on that that git was the way that we share inversion files What if we just told them? You need to learn how to edit a market markdown file But that's pretty easy and then why don't we just send emails back and forth to each other with markdown files as attachments Which I know sounds insane to anybody who's gotten themselves out of that rat race But it's like, you know, that's kind of a lingua franca. Can you send an email? Yeah, I can send an email Can you send an attachment? 80% of the time I think I can send an attachment and get it back out So it's like, okay, so let's play this game called massive wiki by email Um, I'm going to send you a couple files as markdown attachments Save them to a directory and then maybe you'll make some new files and send them back as attachments Let's let's agree to a couple rules. One of the rules is we're using markdown. One of the rules is the top line should be A single hash and the title of of what you want to call this file And let's have a rule where we do wiki links this thing called wiki links with Uh, I don't know bangle Let's do wiki links with double square brackets and that's that's all the rules that we need, right? And then you're basically playing massive wiki It's clunky. It's not using git. Uh, the version control management is Probably, you know copy out of 002, you know dash edited by pete and flancium, you know on But whatever, you know so You know, that's totally awesome I think, you know, the I the email aspect is really like, uh, sorry, no, I don't want to go before adam, so yeah Oh, yeah, I think the email aspect is really interesting too. This is entirely different from what I was going to say earlier I actually think like the occurrence of newsletters is sort of this weird return to people being massively engaged in email That necessitates the idea of approaching like some new email tools. There's a really good article that, uh, like Slipped by me in the twitter feed before I could click on it and all I could see was the headline but the headline was basically like We're all using email tools that basically were invented in the 90s and haven't significantly changed since then And what does that mean? And so I think this is really interesting because the idea of emailing each other markdown files Sort of dovetails into like a workflow that I've been working on about this, which is it's very easy to set up Um infrastructure server infrastructure to process emails and do stuff with them Like it'd be very easy to imagine you and somebody else emailing back and forth See seeing an address that lives on aws or google or Microsoft infrastructure And then having it write the massive wiki files without you ever having to do a commit yourself or anything like that And that sort of thing is like a service that makes up a product that could be very useful to people and is relatively cheap. I have a What is my I think I've shown this before but I think back reads Um is currently processing some ludicrous number of emails every day now. Yeah like around 233 to 250 emails a day with Additionally processing around Three to four thousand links depending on the day each of which get archived in aws and crawl crawled and archived in aws and the total cost for that's like under five dollars a month um Like it would be very easy to set up a flow for this cheaply and scale it out as tooling for other people to adapt Yes, that'd be really interesting completely and like I I actually really wanted to develop like uh this for the hour this year Which will be like you see see an hour and say like a node which is a context Anything you want to tar At an hour and it just gets ingested into the know. It's very very very simple to develop um, and like you say it's like, you know available anywhere And like uh sort of like easy to grow your your hair around this Yeah, I think two links in chat. Um, somebody's doing this with obsidian actually IFTTT and Integra mount have email, you know email capture Nice Yeah, and I think like that ties into a really interesting idea based on on what you were saying about it, which is like You can one of the other things I'm playing with more as a privacy thing is It is fairly easy to set up like reject style rules on email. So you could have email rules where it's like You email to a note or to a page Pretty easily as part of that process without having to put that in the text of the markdown file you're emailing or anywhere else It's just whichever email you send it to on the domain But the question though at the end of the day is who are you going to put the work on the end user Who has to deal with the moving pieces where the developer Who makes the system Maybe just as easy to give them a shadow github account that they don't even know about And everything they're doing is saved there They don't have to do the work or think about it or do the back and forth or conflict issues When I've used a group Drop box based version of an obsidian vault And there's two or three of us who go through and resolve conflicts because two people can edit at the same time And it just creates a conflict copy And somebody has to go through and do a quick diff and check it and fix it Which is usually pretty easy and it's not bad With 20 people using it But you scale that up to a couple thousand and you're going to run into an awful lot of overhead Yeah, so it's really that's the it's a design decision of Where are you going to put the work into it or who are you going to force to do the work? Yeah, I think like the idea of like Providing like a simple to use interface to what is essentially backed by the same powerful repository Get back it's it's very promising And on the conflict resolution aspect. I think that's actually a very interesting topic if you think about it because like in particular If if what you're doing imagine like crdd's, you know before like discourse It's very very I think Core to what we keep discussing I think You know to which extent could we problematically merge conflicts? Preserving voices for example, and you know like this is why I I'm so much a fan of outliner mode If you think about the conflicts that you're getting outliner mode I I think It can be seen can be shown that resolve the conflict programmatically is easier than resolving conflicts for a general text Because the hierarchy is very easy to parse And usually when if you say I'm going to append One block to another in outliner mode. That's fine It's not like a very destructive So you could imagine like that being a key to like just making it very easy to resolve conflicts programmatically Which seems interesting and of course such such algorithms which could be hoping to eat in general Say, you know, if they if you know how to resolve the conflict by Automatically, just do so and make maybe send a notification Who will actually make the whole problem space more accessible? My god, you're Indian All right, chris if you ever wanted to share some of those or I don't know if you've already blogged about them And I missed them that'd be really interesting I would add that like there is some interesting plugins and obsidian for handling some of this stuff that People have done work on including like syncing with git, which is he theoretically useful. I mean I'm the person who does development work all the time So I prefer to do my git work myself instead using a plugin, but it's fairly high rated People seem to like using it and keep recommending it these massive wikis is obsidian get a lot and it's And it started off pretty creaky, but it's actually very nice now. Um We're we're switching The one thing that we still can't do an obsidian get it's actually got a very nice panel that will let you do commits and you know, you can Stage in particular files and unstage them and diff them and it's actually very nice It's it's almost as good as adam We were really scared we were using adam for some stuff And adam got deprecated by microsoft at the end of last year It's been picked up by an open source team and it's called pulsar now So the thing that we can't do with obsidian get is branch management And pulsar does branch management too. So We're we're excited about pulsar. Even though it's a little less friendly looking than obsidian, you know, actually my my civilian users have picked up adam or pulsar Just as easily as obsidian and the git stuff is actually easier to use in pulsar In addition that's phone Yeah I'm not sure I will call it easy to use but you know, like I guess I haven't used atom and pulsar But like, uh, they of course the git management of um, bsco is Yeah, I I I try to stay away from bscode Kind of for the same reasons I stay away from github and You know, I understand. Yeah, and I give you seen it and it's crashing and I'm like You work some contract it seems if they don't crash it. Okay. Anyway, yeah, I you know I had had this experience talking to somebody, you know, it's like, oh, we need to do git branches. Oh, we need to ide Um is is what came out of my mouth, you know, and then It turns out that adam is kind of an ide, but it's actually more it's a project Oriented text editor would get it's actually really not an ide And then bscode is an ide and it's got a bunch of stuff that a developer wants and a bunch of stuff that you don't want Newbies to have to deal with so adam and and pulsar Are are good for you know, all I need to do is edit a bunch of files in in a directory and do get with it It's it's uh, yeah adam um Jerry got the right the right Address for pulsar Well, those are the same, aren't they jerry? Ah, yeah, uh, yeah, my my copy paste didn't work the first try But but it was adam.io. Then if you go to that site, it says oops We've defecated at the end of 2022 and it doesn't give you any kind of pointer or trailer to pulsar But then if you search for if you google for pulsar and adam, then you go directly to pulsar editor site So there we go So here have a potential side track Oh good Okay, so because I may just make a connection on it. It's uh, remember he goes So I was thinking of like how nice it is a massive week is Get markdown base And the hour is as well And there's so much just like activity even a society effect of like the cloud sync feature like ocean git like essentially yielding all these Interesting apriori ocean volts that in it because people use just that as an alternative to the hosted sync, right? Every often I think so a lot of I use as a boarding I'm taking notes in git, right And I I'm thinking of the you know, the commons like like it could be defined As the you know, the union of our all a good repositories That are compatible with the commons, right? a In intent and the question is how to discover it. So this credibility will be the heading of the section Right, but you go to search maybe and it reminded me of this experiment that I read about Um Earlier this week just which seems slightly related which is uh, I don't know if you've heard of math to search Um Math to search so math um Because you know, um Yes, the so math on search is Uh limited and doesn't work like people expect and there's no way to search the mast on commons Actually favored commons like a many twitter users in particular will expect coming from centralized service And it's been it's proven very hard To build such a tool not because technically it's very difficult Maybe the same as I will say applies to a bunch of these repos, which is like, you know There's nothing too complicated. We say like let's Have a lease with like 10 million repos, right? And and you know crawl it and integrate it Which is nice, right? It's thankfully it's easy Personally, but there's nothing complex about that technically but the community is in general Not in agreement with like people searching back on or or provide an interface to search it And yeah, so the master search was this experiment. I don't want to go to it Or perhaps we can discuss I should be in the hour if not, it will be linked in after the meeting master search The person did like a ethical experiment saying like I'm going to try to build a search engine for Nice, you know, like recently obtained or opt out according to community preferences and let's people search timeline, right? And they still run afoul of some community expectations So they actually turn it Turn it down. They're not running anymore But they said like they they actually provided like a nice post with like these are the Requirements the qualities that such a tool will have to have in our opinion to do better And I sort of think and they actually hint just it's early on the hint at the as a particular risk Which is that so search and the scourality of of github of this both It could provide a lot of value But it could be very useful if it was one place where you can actually go and search And you find this they will be at some network effects and potentially it will be very useful And it only will take one bad actor Or it defined just as someone who doesn't care strictly about like what the community thinks now to go and build it And make it useful To essentially maybe in the worst case enclose the commons And once that is in place like people will just use it and they will It will you know benefit from the same network effects And it seems like the problem space both for like, you know, discovery and integration of like github repositories with information and The favors it seems like both those spaces are open As we entered 2023, which actually seems surprising to me Even and so I got I wanted to bring that up because you know, it's just a particular parallel between the favors and the knowledge commons Which may be the right the same thing by the way, right? In the end And something that we could explore So that's that's it Yeah, I mean, I think that this is a really interesting problem that bassidon is facing because the other side of that is there's also like people who applied for and got special research from Like twitter to get the twitter api for academic reasons And one of the people who was writing a version of masted mastodon patch that allowed full search Was like interested in that and like that's a real need that people should be moving forward on but Yeah, there's a lot of danger there that the wrong person adopted. I think it does sort of speak to like The best defense. I think to this is to like fragment search Not just as like a subject of search But to make it easier and more effective for people to build general search engines and search corpuses I think uh, I maintain a topic on this and there's been more of this and more of this keeps coming up Uh, that has been really interesting to me because I think like These types of problems and these types of enclosures Search and indexing and crawling is the heavy-duty problem That big entrance solve that allows them to do capture And so solving that problem and making those tools available at a community level. I think is Not the solution but a potential solution or part of it Really, uh, I mean a lot of people It may be right. I think like a lot of people like said, you know, like opting doesn't work Because uh, well actually it doesn't work Usually But like this for for example, if you think about master on Some instances could be Upped out could say like we actually are part of the commons by default So they so, you know, like group level rules You could say as well everything with a hashtag is you need to opt out if you don't want it to index it, right? You could have like and we go back to the patterns, right? Does a hashtag mean That you are contributing the post to the commons It could mean that Right, but but we have to have the conversation Or to or, you know, and the commons being like any provider or consumer does, uh, you know, using weak links in a git repository Uh, mean that you know, if you have a competitive license file that can be ingested by the knowledge commons being like one based on massive wiki or an hour or both right It I'm biased, right? So I think that if we lower the The values to coordination so that, you know, we can without surprising people recently like bullstrap knowledge commons and re-bullstrap them In case they are enclosed, right Uh, like easily and cheaply. I would rather go to that future Right, but I also don't want to be the person saying like I'm gonna discover every repository that exists that has marlin And like put it in a knowledge commons Well, or perhaps I do I do want to do that, but I feel like I should you know Uh, because someone will do it Right, and I think that it shouldn't be uh, uh, it should be a an ethical group Maybe one that meets on wednesdays I don't know, but you know like what I mean, I seem not a person probably Because it's too much, you know Um, uh, now, I don't know Well, they listen to something, uh, do our It it's funny as as we started this conversation. I was I was thinking I'm not I I don't worry about the enclosure problem Um But you've spoken with me about it and it's I thought it was one of the reasons you were trying to leave github Well, I I worry about enclosure, but I don't worry about Kind of you know the the the fault thing of math. Well, so I I was I was starting to think that I I didn't worry about the enclosure problem Um, and it's because I I sit in massive wiki land kind of um And the other the other the enclosure problem actually goes hand in hand with like, um search engines Like any olden days we didn't have search engines and then there was archie and you know, then there was altavista and then there was Oh my god, uh, you know google um We like google didn't have to be successful. Um, it was a two-way street, right? They made google or they made altavista And then people like this is much better than anything else. I'm just going to use it So it was a voluntary enclosure um, and I feel like, you know, if if you were careful enough If the activists were careful enough to say And it starts here, you know, it starts now like you have to start thinking about it before it happens I totally agree with that But if you're careful enough to say, hey, you know last time this happened We ended up with google and google now owns all of your stuff, right? Maybe we shouldn't do that You know, it's it's not like a it's it's not the I don't know It's it's a It's a codependent Uh Enclosure and maybe, you know, maybe we can teach people fast enough not to not to be part of it But but then I was like, you know, actually maybe I maybe massive wiki is actually an anti enclosure strategy because one of the really interesting things about massive wiki is that As you put stuff in massive wikis, you you start to not put it all in one massive wiki You put, you know, you you end up copying from one massive wiki to another and you end up kind of with a a database nerds nightmare where it's like guys, don't you have a A authoritative version and it's like, yeah You know If you needed it you made a copy of it and if you made a copy of it you can change it And maybe you would send it back and maybe you wouldn't you know So in a way massive wiki is is a little bit enclosure proof or enclosure resistant at least Because you start making all of these, you know Yeah, sure. You could you could aggregate all of that But somebody else can aggregate it in a little bit different way and you can have competition amongst aggregation strategies and You can have people that actually move their stuff out of maybe public aggregation and and go to some private aggregation that they they you know, they participate in It's a little bit not I guess this kind of happens on the web, but I really like pushing the idea that You know, no, there's not a Canonical copy of it and no, you know, if you search for it, you're going to find the canonical copy. It's like Yeah, you know search search in as many Search aggregators as you as you can and look for different versions of it and that's the the beauty of it so massive wiki kind of pushes for An ecosystem of aggregators not not one super aggregator I think I wanted to mention murmurations by the way murmurations is Is it was intended for profile person profile aggregation where that was their first Their first application They've they never intended it to be just people but you know people Throw up a I guess it's probably a json throw up a json payload And tell us about it and and we'll keep you know, we'll we'll aggregate all these json Chunks there's more to it than that. It's not just a simple json aggregator. Um, they've got some some thought thinking too Oh, I was gonna hit return on this There's a few other people doing things like murmurations Um And and then this is a little bit like the old micro formats micro formats were a way of publishing information in you know html In the into the interstices of html and then the idea of micro formats was you've got aggregators that that pull those together So maybe that's my headline. Um, make sure that so don't don't tell people don't use an aggregator But encourage an ecosystem of aggregators that are competing. Um, always Yes, without share basically or finish a protocol and so on. Yeah What order our hands are in here? It doesn't have a cue. Oh my gosh. Yeah, that's not really a cue. Uh, do you mind if I jump in? Um, so I was just putting in the chat, uh Partly what pete is talking about starts to turn the ground I feel like I'm standing on into quicksand which worries me a bunch I have enough trouble mapping Obsidian vaults to github repose to wiki namespaces and then layering in the concept of decentralization on top of that Uh, a cosmic paul roney built a decentralized ipfs based foundational File system that I don't know that it's ready for prime time, but there's other people who've done the same sort of thing It's like hey, here's an alternate distributed file system Often built on top of ipfs, which sort of worries me because once I read about pinning. I was like, ah crap Um, and I don't know what the financial model is to reward Long long term storage of anything Uh on any of these decentralized platforms and then I can't get into my brain the fed wiki over the promiscuous Replication of pages that fed wiki does as a default Pisses me off like mentally. I don't quite get that It's like it's forking any any page you touch gets forked into your fed wiki And I don't get why do that because Then I lose where things are and when things don't have a canonical space Then I feel like if I make any change it's not actually to The thing I'm trying to change and it'll just fade into the distance, right? And that takes me over to content-based search, which is like screw URLs forget them They were a temporary hack We should just be able to find our way to the canonical page by Mentioning the content which I don't and I'm not using I don't see how it works I don't know who's solving for that but but I'm saying all of this because I kind of need like a rock to stand on to be doing the kind of stuff I'd like to do with other people And when the rock starts turning what starts doing a liquefaction thing I'm like, ah And I feel like I'm just drowning I'm drowning. It's kind of a different architectural layer Um, uh, if you need if you need a rock and most people would need a rock to stand on You're probably you've you've got a small number of aggregators that That made permanent the the decentralized quicksand underneath you. I'm not sure how I understand how the aggregators Do that in any long-lasting rock-like metaphoric way Because if the aggregators go away am I host? um Not with ipfs. I don't know that ipfs is the right thing. I mentioned our weave which Promises to be permanent. It may or may not actually be permanent, but um, but I think I think you're the I think what you want is a semantic rock to be able to a semantic Thing to be able to hold on to and an aggregator will give you that For the long term maybe not forever, but but for a very long time Um, you know in in the in kind of the same way that google gives you semantic stability you can always go to google and say When was abraham lincoln born and it will tell you so that's a that's a rock which is made upon of you know a shifting morass of I maybe pick a more complicated, you know semantic search, but Um, that's the that's kind of what ends up happening. Um, it's it's just that we don't want You know, we don't want three exactly the same search bots, uh, like google and bing and whatever whatever the third one is I don't know if it's duck that go or yeah or whatever I think though like It's not exactly that either right like There because this obviously builds out a problem for uh, right misinformation There needs to be some sort of understanding of authority and right now on the web And maybe we don't want to retain it that way But right now on the web the understanding of authority is you know page rank people linking to stuff um And the cross links and age of domain And then down the list there's more minor factors I think like there's there's sort of two pieces here, right? One is you need to democratize The methodology by which search pages are created. So I do think like to answer this problem You need to have Essentially be building towards a world where Everyone can have their own personal search engine Where they can designate sources and they can designate What the the meaning of these things are that's not Google right the problem with google is not Is that for the closure? I am at google right now I don't think anybody is listening, but It's fine. It's not like I'm gonna start this up as a business. I just think like The problem that we have is that Right it can pick up on anything and it's and there's the opportunity to gain But when you start designate your links That you do want searched and that becomes part of the aggregation process That then becomes part of the search process Then I think that sort of solves the problem But I think the other thing that solves the problem is there needs to be more of a pattern of like Linking in a way that lends authority. I think Sort of part of the issue is We reject the idea of linking as giving authority to another page now because it has become too Dispursed and there needs to be different methodologies by which we can say I'm not just linking to a page, but I am Lending authority to this page. I think I I talked about this before right, but I think one of the things that we're missing especially as twitter Slowly falls into a fire pit Is like What are the tools of amplification in a post twitter age? Like I I put this up to my following and like nobody really has an answer for this there are no especially not democratized or at least user friendly tools of amplification in a post twitter age and the even the tool of amplification that twitter is is not Useful outside of twitter really right twitter Twitter does not make its best links available For indexing in any way. That's just internal information into twitter um So I like the idea of like federations or the marmorations, but I do think it has to lend itself towards The idea not of necessarily establishing a piece of content as an authority But more about establishing origins and coordinating inputs I think a lot about like the schema.org which is like the markup for structured data on a web page right has a property called is based on That I think is theoretically very powerful Mark and torn parent has hyper knowledge which has some of the same Some of the same characteristics I there's an old standard That that people working on in the blogging days or the rss days or maybe the micro formats days where there was link annotation um like Like, you know, I I vouch for this link or something like that. I forget what it was This is everything you're saying is very interesting. I just have wanted to point out that That's one way of working at it as I see it, which is like, you know What the link level web standards and we should do it in pursuit of that but just for the issue of like, uh, you know, maybe this You know countering the growth of the search or social comments I think there's also like more user oriented ways in the sense of You know, like essentially like search for somebody's only useful and and learners as well from nowadays From the actual use like, you know, a user search for something They find something and at some point they stop searching. So you can sort of infer maybe They found what they wanted, right? And and that's you can do that as users navigate the graph in general that applies also to twitter as they cover content people Regardless of whether the actual platform or web pages are like standards compliance, right? So just to say if a user if a set of users were able to where we need to say I am going to contribute my search