 Welcome to Books, Books, Books. I'm your host, Mihaila Stoops, and today we're talking about a cultural phenomenon, Korean TV series. My guest is Dr. Carl Ackerman. He is the author of a K-drama voyage, the quite pleasurable cultural journey of an American watching Korean drama. Carl, thank you so much for joining me today. Well, thank you. You're a wonderful person to have me on. Thank you. And I'm just gonna start with the most obvious question. What sparked your interest in Korean drama? How did you get into this? Well, you know, I have to confess, it's because of a woman who is much prettier and brighter than myself, who happens to share my last name. And my wife and several of her friends in Hawaii got very interested in Korean drama. And I came home one day, and I don't know what I was doing, and normally I head towards our kitchen table, and I get a bite to eat and drink some coffee. And I started looking up at the television set, and I said, oh, this is kind of good. So, you know, and I kind of longed for the 1950s, early 1960s cinema in the United States. Of course, there were many sociological issues in the United States at that time, but still the movies were a little bit more directed towards conversation. And there are also long pauses or longer pauses. And so I think Korean drama, in many cases, still has those things, although many Korean dramas also today, of course, emulate American television and American movies, but Korea really has its own culture. So what year was that? Because most people found out about Korean TV series in 2021, when the Squid Game became so popular. And I remember prior to that, I would go to Costco, and I would see these sets of Korean TV series, and I would be like, not interested, right? Right. So what year, when did that happen for you? You know, for me it was about 2018. And you know, the Squid Game, I think does a lot of disservice to Korean drama, because most Korean drama are A, not that bloody, and B, it emphasizes only one aspect of Korean society, and that part of Korean society is kind of unemployment or underemployment. And that happens to be true about South Korea. So I mean, it's not saying anything that South Koreans don't admit to themselves, but it's sort of like, you know, if the only thing you're gonna focus on, you know, if you had a series in the United States about Martin Luther King or Malcolm X, that's all you've got to know about the United States. You know, it's like exposing your problem. And interestingly enough, after the book was published, the very nice and congenial South Korean counsel here in Hawaii, and his wonderful artistic sort of assistant, or I should say she's an art expert, because she's a trained lawyer and a brilliant woman on her own, took me out to lunch. And they were saying some of the same things. This is post-Squid Game, of course. And you know, the proof of the pudding of when I found out about the Korean drama is that I could not have included a Squid Game in this book because it came out just as my book was going to be published. So there we go. So you will become interested in this and you decide to write a book about your experience, you know, watching these TV series. And, you know, people have heard of Telenovelas probably more than they have heard of Korean TV series. So why do you decide to write a book about it? Well, you know, if you rewatch Korean dramas carefully, what I'm interested in, because I'm trained as a historian, so what I like to do, and a Russian historian, so I had to learn many things about Russian culture from observing, from watching film, et cetera, et cetera. And so this book does the same thing, but it uses as it's, instead of having, you know, a dissertation which is based on a lot of primary documents, the primary documents here are the Korean dramas. So if you go through my book, there are different Korean dramas and the way it's organized, let me just, let me read out some of the things from the index. You know, the categories, yeah, thank you very much. That's the word I was looking for. R2L, but so there we go. So, you know, corporate life and relationships, patriotism, the love of reading and literature, which is, you know, something that, you know, I think it's called out on a fine spring day. There's one out right now on Netflix. It was not included in my book, but the Koreans really love literature and it's a highly educated population. And you even have, you know, when they show kind of gangsters in Korea, they're reading too, so it's a little surprising. So, you know, everyone is reading health and healthcare. And what's interesting about healthcare is, you know, you would think, and I do think that they have some sort of, you know, socialized medicine, but then if you're wealthy, you can really get very nice private rooms at the hospitals. So, you know, if I were to describe Korea in one or two sentences, I would say that, you know, if you're a wealthier person or a corporate person, you can really do well and, you know, you get a lot more respect and attention. I think it's true of a lot of countries, but in Korea it's especially true. Startup businesses, environmental concerns, women in misogyny, you know, a lot of the Korean dramas are written by women. And, you know, there's a lot of undercurrent about women, you know, having sort of equal roles and the current president of Korea has sort of downplayed that. But, you know, if you go to the Korean drama, it's really emphasized in many aspects of it. You know, I loved how you, for me as a reader and a novice to this, the book was tremendously helpful because I would be like, well, what should I watch? I wanna watch something. And it's like, well, what theme am I interested in? And you're not spilling the beans on any of the shows. You give us an idea on what it might be about and what we should look for. But sometimes there are themes that are present and we don't even think about. We're just, you know, they're part of the story. So it's, I enjoy this part of the book. And my, as you mentioned, you know, you are a historian. You have a doctorate in European history from UC Berkeley. You've taught history at Punahou High School and Yolani schools for almost 40 years. And- Longer than you've been alive, I'm sure. Yeah, no, no, no, actually not. I'm older than that. Well, you look much younger. So there we go. But to me, these TV series had an educational component. And of course I've never been to Korea. I haven't studied much of Asian history in school. And it was an opportunity to learn a bit more about the area and the country and the history starting from zero. But what do you think is a history professor? Is there any value there? Yeah, I think you get it on the head. I think that you, if you look at, now I was looking at the dramas mostly, especially when I started getting interested in the dramas with my wife, because I was looking at it from a historical and also a cultural perspective. And what do I mean by that latter term, cultural? You know, often when, you know, people travel to other countries, they make comparisons, but they also make judgments. And of course, in some cases, because something really awful is happening, you have to make a judgment. But in most cases, I think you should delay your judgments and try to think about what this means for the people involved and how they may have a different interpretation of what you're thinking about. And so I tried to expose things and you know, you and I had a preliminary conversation. And I'm gonna go to one of the dramas right now and you know, Crash Landing On You. And the thing about Crash Landing On You is, you know, it's just to give the audience a little bit of- Just a bit, don't give it all, just a bit. No, no, no, I'll just give a little bit. But you know, it's about a very successful corporate woman who's comes from an extraordinarily wealthy family. And these are the kind of corporate people I was talking about in discussing, you know, the kind of hospital care that they get, et cetera, et cetera, because they're really the elite society. And you know, she's flying, you know, one of these kites and manned kites and hand gliding as it were, and you know, gets, goes into North Korea and you know, she has to get out. And it's her relationship between the North Korean army officer and herself. And apparently these two actors got married after this drama, which is truly incredible. But it's about their different lives and what are exposed about the lives. And you know, you see these North Korean army infantrymen watching Korean drama too, you know, which they can get a lot of trouble with. But as an aside here, and this is where we had our preliminary conversation, you know, what's happening is that the army officer used to be a classical pianist. And you know, he as in that position, you're not, you know, in a Marxist on this country, you don't often get to travel unless you're part of the party elite. And he had a chance to travel and he was playing, you know, beautiful music, classical music in Switzerland, I believe it was. And you know, along the lake and it turns out that this South Korean woman was there at the same time. So, you know, one of the things I've noticed also about Korean dramas is, you know, the, I would say the screenwriter device and well, the screenwriter device and the writer device is to use flashbacks. I mean, that's often done in Korean drama, but you know, the reason I started with this particular drama, and it's, you know, it's, you know, when you look at this drama, in addition, crash landing on you. That's a strange name. I mean, you're not gonna get a, you're not gonna get, and it may be the translation, but the crash landing on you, but she did crash land and she did crash land almost on the army officer. So it's apt, but it's a different type of a, of a Korean drama. And you asked earlier what really got me in. This was the first one on Netflix that I watched with my wife, but we had watched other ones that were not on Netflix or on this wonderful TV station that we have here locally in Hawaii. But, and, okay, this was really, really a good Korean drama to start with. And when people ask me, where should they start? That's what I say, crash landing on. Well, I love the story. And for me, coming from Romania, which used to be a communist country, in the beginning, the North Korean scenes seemed to be a little padded. Like, I know it's probably worse than what they were showing, but then as episodes went by, it became more and more realistic. Like, okay, you're not gonna be able to travel abroad. You're not gonna be able to say what you wanna say. You're gonna have to keep your place in line and never be different than anybody else. You're not gonna do what you wanna do. So it was such a showcase of how communism works and doesn't work. It, to me, that had a lot of value. And of course, the story is fantastic. And as you said, the title, when I tell people about it, they're like, what? They don't understand what it is. I'm like, don't worry. Just watch it and you'll get it all. And last but not least, and that's how I came into it, somebody at my church was playing the music from Crash Landing on You as a prelude to our service. And I was like so impressed with the music and I said, what music is this? And then I figured if the music is this good, probably the series is good as well. So let's talk about the music part of Korean drama. You know, many Korean dramas will have classical music intertwined and I'm trying to think of one I was recently watching about, or if something about the spring or the day the weather is that they get. It's something like a day when the weather is fine. And it's a lovely drama, but the opening scenes show you a classical cello player who turns out to be the star of the show and you get to hear her music. And this is not uncommon for many of the Korean dramas. And of course, since a side aspect of this is because K-pop has become so important, there are some K-dramas which I include in the text and I'm gonna look one up right now, which is specifically about what it is or what it means to be in the music business in Korea. Following your advice, I started watching Cinderella and the Four Nights, which has a lot of K-pop. And a lot of times, at least for me, K-pop was all about boy bands, but actually this is, although one of the characters is part of a boy band, the soundtrack has a lot of K-pop that are female artists. So I enjoy that quite a bit as well. And of course, you have the historical dramas where the soundtrack is more, I would say, traditional or the music is more traditional and one gets to learn about that. But you're really getting a voyage through, I guess, the music or the score of all these TV series as well. Yes, and with Cinderella and the Four Nights, as you mentioned it, I'll go there first. You know, I list one of the songs that's being listed by this particular drama. And you know, there's one song that's very concerned about love and some of the lyrics are, I only need you, I only need you, I don't need the club, women or alcohol, they're all for you, your eyes, your nose, your lips are all mine too. And then what I did is I went to the early 1960s in this chapter and I found an old Beatles song, Love Me Do, which is 1963 by the Beatles. And I compared it and you know, this Beatles song has a stance that says, love, love me do, you know I love you, I'll always be true. So please love me do, whoa, love me do. And you know, you're not gonna find the kind of messages you find in Robert Zimmerman, that is Bob Dylan. And you're not gonna find, you know, the country kind of a truthism of Woody Guthrie, but you are gonna find a lot of love stories and love music in the popular culture. And you know, there was also another K-drama which focused on this young man who was just getting out of prison and what he did when he came out of prison, he was always listening to this one radio station. So music is always a big part and I'm glad you mentioned this of K-drama, always, always, always, always. And so is love and you've already mentioned that and I want to point out to our viewers that while watching Crash Landing on You, I think my husband, or maybe it was another drama, my husband and I watching together and we counted that it took about 16 episodes for the lovers to kiss. So one interesting part about it is that love is presented more like an emotion, a relationship and there's not a lot of the sexual component to it. And you know, this, depending on the K-drama you watch, there could be great variants, but when most of the K-dramas that are in the ones that I've selected are exactly that, you know, you're dying for the, in fact, there's a new one that's not in the book called Would You Like a Cup of Coffee? And you're dying for these people to get together and they don't get together. You know, most of the K-dramas are 16 episodes and they don't get together until like episode 12. You know, you're kind of going, kiss her for God's sake, you know, because the, but it's, you know, it's a more gentle society. And that's what I'm talking about in terms of the 50s and the 60s that, you know, American society was more like that. I mean, you wouldn't, you know, you take someone out and you know, you maybe shake her hand as you left your girlfriend on the front door and you know, her parents would know what type of boy you were or what type of girl the woman was that you're going out with. And you know, it was a much more, much more reserved thing than when we grew up with. And I, you know, I always remember my mother saying to all of us when we had various boyfriends or girlfriends in college that is my sisters and my brothers and I, you know, I don't want to meet them unless you're going to marry them. And what she was saying about, with that short statement was sort of like the Korean drama in the sense that, you know, there has to be a serious attitude about this, you know, you know, you're not, you know, you're, if you're gonna present them to your mother or father, you know, and she's, you know, my mother comes from the tradition of New York and old school and, you know, her ancestors came from both Austria and Russia and my father's from Germany. And so it was just, you know, sort of old school framework, you know, they were third or fourth generation, but they still had that kind of framework of the 1950s and being more reserved despite all the problems that the United States had sociologically, you know, with racism and other things and, you know, misogyny and stuff like that. But there are parts of that period that I kind of admire and, you know, it's kind of interesting that the other thing to admire is sort of like the automobiles. And of course, you know, in every K drama, you know, you can support, you can see a Kia. And, you know, think about how new Kia is, because, you know, there were no Kias when I was growing up, you know, and there probably were no Kias when I was, you know, in my 40s, but now there are Kias and it's a great car. It's like, you know, coming up to the level of, you know, the most popular car in America, the Toyota, but that's, I digress, so I'll be quiet for a bit. And besides the cars, it's also the fashion. I mean, if somebody likes fashion, that's a great source of information and inspiration at the same time, particularly for the more current type of TV series. So. I, you know, I urge you to watch, there's a new one I'm watching called agency. And I should point out to the viewers that what I'm talking about, K-drama, I'm only talking about K-drama on Netflix. And I did that purposely in the book because you already have one rendition of observation. And I trust Netflix to put on, you know, pretty good stuff. Oh, there's some pretty, you know, there's some other things that really remind you of more of American television, but an American television can be quite good too. But one of the things in this new K-drama, which is about an advertising agency, so it's called agency, is that the star of the show and one of the corporate heads, these women dress impeccably. And what you have to see for both men and women in the Korean dramas is the color of their skin. It's almost perfect white. I mean, you know. And it's flawless. That's why people don't have like red spots or anything. You know, it's like your skin. And it's like, you know, it's absolutely flawless. And it's quite remarkable. And when we had the opportunity, I took my two daughters and my wife to South Korea. And we went, we were staying in this sort of area in Seoul that was very close to an outdoor mall. We went to that outdoor mall and there were a series of cosmetic shops. And the Korean women really mask up. You know, I'm not talking about like face masks. I'm talking about, you know, cosmetic masks and they really take care of their skin. But it's not just the women, it's the men too. And so they have really quite, at least in the Korean dramas, their skin is flawless. And it's quite remarkable. And you probably saw this in Crash Landing on you. Despite the guy being in the army, he had pretty good skin to boot. Yeah, both female and male actors are just beautiful. It's just, yeah, their skin is beautiful. So since we're approaching the end of the show, I'm going to ask you if you were to recommend a series and you've mentioned agency, is there any other series that you'd recommend that is newer and that maybe if you're considering updating the book, you would include? Do you know, I was reading, you're going to laugh at this. I was reading the New York Review of Books and there was a remembrance about a writer for the New Yorker or the New York Review of Books. And one of the things he said at the very end of his life to his friends, he said, look, if you're going to get a Russian novel, you should get it translated by Constance Skarnat. And of course, he was right on there. But at the very end of this article, the other thing he said is to go and watch the series, the extraordinary attorney Wu, which is about an attorney who is dyslexic or maybe she's, no, it's not dyslexic, it's stronger than that that she has by birth. And by birth. And so she operates in a very kind of interesting way as a lawyer, but she's very successful in what she does. And this has become, I even got a call from my older brother who doesn't watch that much Korean drama and he said, have you seen this one? And of course, Lin and I had watched it. And that's the one I would recommend. And the other thing for, I don't know how you feel about coffee, but would you like a cup of coffee is something that I wrote, I've written a couple of reviews of K-drama for a journal called The Korean Journal, which is published in the Midwest in the United States and I think in Minneapolis. And I wrote a review of, would you like a cup of coffee? And that's an interesting one about a cafe. I think cafe leads into a variety of relationships between the owner of the cafe and a variety of other people. So it's sort of set up that way, you know? Well, so to summarize, crash landing on you, agency, extraordinary, attorney will, and would you like a cup of coffee? So dear viewers, you have four Korean dramas to look into and I hope you reach out and you tell us how you enjoyed them. And Carl, thank you so much for joining me today and thank you for inspiring me to start my voyage into K-drama. And as you were mentioning, you know, it's best done watching with your husband, although I must say in conclusion, and my wife gets kind of annoyed because I do look for the historical aspects to the drama and I will say to her like about agency, I'll say, oh, that's kind of strange, you know, they really come to a consensus before they come to a final comment. But my suggestion is watch with your wonderful husband and you can bug him the way I bug my wife. I'll give you permission. And that's how you keep your marriage going. Oh, of course. Well, thank you again and a hui hou. Thank you so much for watching Think Tech Hawaii. If you like what we do, please click the like and subscribe button on YouTube. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn. Check out our website, thinktechawaii.com. Mahalo.