 Hey, Dewey. How are you? I'm very good. Are you kidding? Oh, good. Good, good, good. How about you? I'm good. Good. I am. I've had the good fortune to work on two of your plays that are in the festival. Age of Belief being the one that, that premiered tonight. And then tomorrow we're doing a. Piotr's magic radio at three 30. So that's going to be a thrilling live performance. So I'm really excited about that. I would love to talk about a number of things with you, but I really would love for you to talk about your career as a play right. And this being the last play that you wrote before you had a career change. Can you just talk about that a little bit? Yeah, sure. You know, for those who don't know, I just watched a play get performed that. I haven't seen in 20 years and tomorrow night, I'm going to watch one that I haven't seen in 30 years. So I really know how many, you know, people get lucky enough to have these past lives, get resuscitated in such a cool and emotionally healthy manner. But I, a long time ago before the autism, Asperger world, I had a kind of interesting life as a starving playwright by night. And I kind of had a cool stupid day job. I had a minor league diplomat operating out of the UN, but my theater career really sort of, you know, started when I went to college as a music student, very quickly realized that I was not about to become the next year, but Von Carrion. I couldn't hear six voices. I could only hear four. And, but at the same point, because I was kind of the weird looking guy, this one director on campus said, he's the guy who should play Prospero in this production of the tempest. So, you know, I walk in and like two weeks later, I've got the lead as a freshman, you know, and all things went from there. And I got out of there with a directing degree. And went to graduate school on a scholarship to Columbia for playwriting and was then turned over into the Lower East side, where I had roughly. Oh man, a lot of productions. One year in which one particular theater did seven of my one year. It's called theater club funerals. Some people know it, but I also worked at here. I worked at La Mama. I worked at all of the major sort of, you know, landmark theaters at the time. And it was a great life except then along came fatherhood. And, you know, I just, I wasn't making any money out of it for some weird reason. So, you know, my sort of presence in the New York City theater world at the time was really in the avant garde community, which was a much more directors community. And I always thought that that was a little weird because it wasn't like my plays didn't have narrative, you know, they weren't Richard foreman plays. You know, who I thought was a genius. I adored him until I met him. And, you know, but it was, it was a fun existence. You know, it was, you know, you're a single guy. You're, you know, you're drinking back then. Everybody loves your work. So, you know, in the restaurants and the bars or right next to the theaters, you know, it was a fabulous time. And my family was just really happy for me too. My 94 year old grandfather, even at one point came down to visit and all my friends just loved him. And he stayed out with us like until two o'clock in the morning, one night actually. So, and you know, that carried me through my, you know, a marriage. It was a great life. But again, couldn't couldn't really, you know, support a kid based on Lower East Side Productions. And I think one of the things that is kind of funny about my theater career is that I was actually willing to sell out. I think a lot more than anybody gives me credit for. And I can't tell you how many times, you know, I just couldn't get it right. And I'll never forget this one agent who just screamed at me one day. Why can't you write me something? It's 90 minutes long that I can send to Florida. And, you know, I, I, I tried, but couldn't, but, you know, I especially people sort of, I think sometimes see that there's, you know, an awful lot of tragedy when you have to leave the theater, you've given, you know, so much of yourself to this one thing. And that it just can't be anything but a heartbreaking realization that it needs to stop. And I never saw it that way. I really saw it as you gave it your best shot. It didn't work out. Time to move on. And one of the things I think that I've been noticing that gave me, you know, sort of the clarity to be able to think that was that everybody else that I had seen that had to leave the theater. They had entered into other careers where believe it or not, they were 20 times tougher than their peers because the theater, if nothing else, it's the rejection business. And you get used to rejection like none, no other field. And that just really, you know, solidifies so much of what you can do in whatever your next career is and because it's in the arts and especially, you know, given all the, I did in the spectrum world, you know, I think that was the first thing I realized was that I had to think about it. And I realized later on, I realized, you know, how important it is to understand that if you have some bank in the back of your head that just contains beautiful images, whether it's from music, theater, any kind of the arts, that that's just something that you can withdraw on all your life. And that's just as a fan, not as a participant. So thank you for asking me that question. That was a great question. Well, tell us a little bit about what you do now. Okay, comparison. Yeah. I wear a lot of different hats in the autism Asperger world. I have founded nonprofits in New York City. I have school consulted all over the world, including 10 years with the New York City Department of Education on the side. I have done projects in many, many different countries. I've had many almost I've written books like everybody else in the world. I've written a number of books. I've written a number of books. I've got about 60 columns out there. I had one called autism without fear with the Huffington post for four years. And I am now the disability inclusive culture consultant for New York University. It really is. And you know, it's, it's, you know, you can criticize NYU for who they gave that position to, but the actual position is actually something that no other university has ever even, you know, been able to do. And it really is like the first time in which I think a disabled community is being looked upon as assets as opposed to a problem. That's really, really great. And, and you're right. I mean, I teach in the university system at University of South Carolina, and yeah, we wish we had your position. Well, make it happen. Real progressives never say this is the way things are. They say this is how it can and should be. Absolutely. So for me, I think it's such a wonderful marriage of your lives to be working with this theater company. It was there have been other attempts for people to, you know, do my plays, but it usually just kind of felt like, you know, they were just trying to extract, you know, whatever name brand that I had from the autism world to, you know, help them along and wasn't really done without anything else other than that. And I started to get re reintegrated into it because really, believe it or not, when I first started 20 years ago in the autism Asperger world, nobody really would listen to you when you would say, Hey, you know, you might want to think about theater for people with autism. It really helped me, you know, got me to understand what my body was doing, you know, under, you know, helped me with theater of mind issues of what it's like to be in another person's shoes and all that stuff. And it was really like crickets when I was trying to convince people of that. So I kind of gave up. And then suddenly the idea, just other people realized it took off on it. You know, you had the miracle project. You had action play in New York, which were casting people on the spectrum, but spectrum theater ensemble is the first one in which the people who are running it are neurodiverse. And that's not only enough for me to hand my plays to a guy like Clay Martin and say, you deserve this. You can go with it and run it. But the fact that spectrum theater ensemble has been, you know, originated in my hometown of Providence, Rhode Island. Come on. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's a, it's, it's meant to be. It really is. Do I have to ask you just because I'm just deadly curious that what is it like to direct 20 and 30 year old plays? It's really fun. I mean, it's really fun. I think I've shared this with you before, but this particular play age of belief. I really spoke to me, I grew up near Atlantic city, which is where you intended it to take place. And the, the casinos opened when I was like a freshman in high school. So like I instantly recognize some of these characters. And I was really drawn to the idea that, that they were searching for something, some kind of connection with meaning and with other people. And that somehow when they started gambling, they would find that relief for just a little second or two. And then it would fall away. And then it would fall away. And then it would fall away. And then it would fall away. And then it would fall away. Usually when they lost money. And to me that, that's a lot about what happens with any addiction, really, you know, that it's just substituting, it's filling some kind of a void. And as a person in recovery, that, that just really spoke to me. So it was really a blast to, to look at this work. Because I could recognize these characters from people that I would ride the bus with. And I was like, well, I'm going to be sitting on the bus to come home from college because it was like $25. And they give you a roll of quarters when you got there. And I was like, what laundry money? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Oh man, I remember those buses. Oh my God. It was such a cheap way to get home because I didn't have a car at college in the middle of Pennsylvania. And so, but I'd be sitting on the bus with all these little old ladies who were just there with their social security check. And I was, I was just stunned. And I couldn't believe it. I didn't have money. And so like Marie instantly spoke to me as one of those women. Who really can't afford to be there. And my father worked at the Atlantic city rescue mission. And, and I've met a lot of men. When I would go help him with Thanksgiving and Christmas dinners and stuff that had lost everything, like hundreds of thousands of dollars in their marriage and kids in the whole nine yards. I felt like it had a lot of messages in there. Yeah, and recognizable characters to me. So it was fun. And it was fun too, because I got to enlist a lot of my actor friends from South Carolina on this one. Oh my God, they were wonderful doing it. Yeah, absolutely. It was really fun to do. They were absolutely wonderful. And actors these days, we're also hungry to be doing theater together, that it was the easiest casting call I've ever made. I just sent some people a text message and everybody said yes immediately. I'm in and we had a great time doing it. Yep, yep, yep. It's so funny actually that you mentioned the whole concept too of just like not being aware of so much that's going down. I guess I should tell other people because you and I have had conversations about this, but one of the things that saved me in terms of being a person with autism is that I got very early lessons in nonverbal communication because I had a grandmother that was a car shark and she had basically been told in the 1920s, her father brought her into her office and said, what you're doing is on the lady like and it will ruin your prospects for a good marriage and stop it. And she was a complicated woman. She actually agreed with him. So that's another story, but so she stopped and she put it away for a long time. She got married, she had kids, life goes on. Then her kids have kids and my father heads off to Vietnam and my mother and I go to live with my grandparents to go to, so that my mother can go back to school. So my grandfather's great guy, but he'll take over when I'm like 10 years old or something like that. It's just not into little kids as much my grandmother was. But my grandmother was like, what do I do with this kid? I'm too old to climb trees. And it was only when I tested three grades ahead in math, she was like, oh no, now I know what I'm gonna do with him. That's all we did every day for a few years. We played cards after school and she would use my real allowance. And so there were a lot of tears. It was really hard sometimes, but if I didn't pay attention to what her body was doing, I would lose my allowance. And if I didn't show restraint, if I got Delta grade hand and so that she would fold immediately, I would lose my allowance. And they were hard lessons, but I always have regarded myself as an individual on the spectrum who is most trained in making sure that I'm paying attention to a person's body signals. I think I've already shared with you in the cast, but for the audience, I'm still- Yes, and I think that's such fascinating information. It's really weird. I mean, because sometimes people will get insulted if you tell them this. They want to be believed by their words. And I'm still checking your shoulders to see if I think you're lying to me. Yeah. And how do you think that helps you? You just were able to pick up on social cues in a much different way than you would otherwise? Yeah. Oh, definitely. I mean, when we talk about nonverbal communication, we're talking about things like winks, facial expressions, you're going on for five hours and the person you're talking to is trying to send you signals with their face that they really want you to shut up. And you're just not picking up on that because you're just like so into what you're talking about. But because of the fact that I had like all these financial consequences when I'm six years old, I was paying attention. And it's just another way of, I mean, I think one of the things that I realized too is that, which actually humanized me though because when I started to really look at the concept of lying, there were two things that immediately jumped out at me. And that was just that one, I wasn't a better person than other people because I didn't lie like others. And a lot of people, you know, and that's a condition of the spectrum for a lot of folks. I didn't lie because I didn't have the social confidence that I could get away with the lie, which is how most people lie. And the other thing I think was just that I started when I started to, you know, see how the rest of the world lies, you know, I actually started to realize and later on this would crystallize for me because when I'm running the largest membership organization for adults on the spectrum in the world and everybody's talking about how they felt lied to, you know, by the grownups around them and stuff like that. And I realized that they hadn't learned one lesson that I had learned that they thought that they had been lied to. And I had known growing up, grownups really didn't lie to you very often but they lied to themselves all the time. All the time. So human fallibility was a real lesson for a spectrum kid like me. Well, and I think it's interesting tie-ins to this play. I mean, these are characters that lie to themselves. Yeah. More than they lie to each other. And as a matter of fact, a lot of them come really clean with each other in this play but are still kind of lying to themselves. Yeah. And credit to your cast. I mean, they nailed those characterizations because of course I can think of the real people that they're derived from, you know, when the Russian mobsters and the Italian mobsters are sitting at the same table. Oh my goodness, what a clash of the Titans that was, you know? Yeah. And like, I mean, so you spend some time in the casino to get some character studies done, yeah? Make some money really was the reason why I was in the casino, you know? It was, my grandmother had, you know, demanded that I make it a supplement to my income and never a blueprint. But there were a couple of times when you're doing theater where, you know, there were a couple of periods where I had to go down to Atlantic City, take that bus and pay the bills that way. Right. Which, you know, it wasn't, you know, what I wanted to be doing and I felt like I was betraying my grandmother, but that was just the way it was. So, you know, you had to do what you had to do. But yeah, spent a lot of time in there. It's a game that I still, I don't play it at all anymore, but, you know, I miss a lot of the great nuances that I think, you know, that these are all over the play, you know, but that, you know, really speak to me and that taught me so much as to whether I'm a person on the spectrum or not. And I think when I talked, one thing that's not in the play that you and I talked about is the concept of tilt. There was a writer who just came out with a book and she was talking about this and it really crystallized for me the memory that when you're on tilt, it means that you're not, you've just like lost a big hand that really threw you. And suddenly you're mental disciplined because this is really hard work. When you stay at the table for four hours, frigging people out, people think you're just sitting around and like relaxing, it's not, you're working so hard and nobody really can really figure that out and understand that. And when you make a mistake, get beat in a hand or something like that where you didn't expect to get beat and you are suddenly, your emotions have come in to, you know, your decision-making capabilities and that's a concept called, you know, being on tilt. And one of the development staples of any kind of a professional poker player is it takes a few years to get rid of the concept of tilt or to really be able to manage it. And it just takes a long time. And, but the only thing that I didn't even realize at the time was how useful that concept would be outside the poker room. Think of it as something that's just gonna stay there. And I only because of this woman's remarks in this interview that I heard was remembering, no, it made me an infinitely better decision maker outside the poker room all the time. And I noticed that people would sometimes even be freaked out because of the fact that I was making these decisions without any emotion whatsoever. It was just like this Mr. Spock thing and we, and we went off and, you know, and boom, my decision was made without caring about other people's feelings. And, you know, that was just, that was a remarkable gift. Yeah, it's almost like learning to manage tilt is what people would now refer to as mindfulness, you know? Just being able to- Or just avoiding the shitty boyfriend. Well, that too. That too. Yeah, I mean, but it's true. I mean, I think that there's, they might not call it tilt, but I think, you know, I've been playing a meditation app every day for, you know, five months straight. What kind of meditation specifically can I ask? It's called Waking Up by Sam Harris. It's like teaching you how to meditate and the theories about meditation. And it's really interesting, but I digress. But I feel like it's such an important thing that it does come into play in gambling, certainly. But, you know, just to be able to, I think as a director in theater, there's lots of times something will happen that makes you want to just, you know, run screaming from the building or cuss the whole cast out or the technical director or whoever. But I had a directing mentor who was also a professional stage manager once just say, you know, never let them see you panic. Because if you panic, everybody's gonna panic, you know? And it's the same kind of sensibility. Like if you're leading a group of people like that and you're on tilt, then everybody's gonna like, oh, this, you know, this play is never gonna open. It's gonna be terrible, you know? So, yeah, like it's a useful tool. You know, sometimes the hard rules, you know, we've become such a more enlightened age about, you know, just some of the stuff that, you know, the douchebag males, you know, we're trying to dominate our philosophies with, you know? And every once in a while, like I'll never forget recently my cousin has a daughter whom I care about pretty much and she, you know, got involved in the wrong guy and, you know, it was one of those situations where you had to, you know, replace the locks, get the restraining order, all that sort of stuff. And, you know, my cousin asked, you know, would you talk to her, you know, she listens to you and stuff like that. I was like, yeah, sure, absolutely. So, went over, talked to her. And, you know, I suddenly realized like how some of these old lessons, you know, are just really not looked upon favorably these days and they still, we can't just drop them all, you know, in the names of our fears. And I finished the conversation with her. I gave her a big hug. I headed back to my car and I was just like, no. And I remembered something from when I was growing up and I had a couple of street years where this came from. And I always imagined it, that it would be something that I would always say to, you know, girls if I had daughters and I had sons. So I didn't really say it that much. And I came up to her and I told her that I didn't want her ever again to let a bullshit human being make her cry. You can let good people make you cry, but you can't let horrible people make you cry. Just try not to. Wow, that's great advice. That's great advice. She changed the locks and moved out the next day. Nice, yes. Yes. Where's to live by? So, how else do you think a theater and poker playing have helped you with your autism? Well, again, you know, it's all combined to force me to pay attention to what my body is doing. You know, as well as, you know, again, the theory of mind issues. I'll never forget the first time I played a character. And, you know, the director was like, noticing that something was really off. And she was like, Michael, do you understand what this character's going through? You know, he's, you know, walking home from a war or something like that. And I was kind of like, you know, no, what are you talking about? I'm thinking this. She's like, but the character's thinking this. I'm like, how can the character be thinking anything differently from what I'm thinking? I didn't articulate it like that. But, you know, that's the theory of mind issues that we struggle with sometimes. Right. And it's very hard for us to sometimes think that somebody else could be, you know, thinking anything differently from you. It's a real, it's a real wow moment when it hits you. And I think also just, you know, I mean, I loved it because I wouldn't count myself as a great actor, but I got great roles because directors just kind of saw they saw my eyes rolling a little bit. They saw my hands rolling out of control and stuff like that. And they were just like, well, he's going to attract attention, you know, to get him out there. So I did. I ended up, you know, getting all these fabulous roles. And, you know, I had a ball out there. And it also just, you know, the whole kinetic relationship with an audience, which I knew a little bit from the music background before that. But it just, you know, was just such a special place where, you know, you know that no matter how great you think you are in a given moment, that you're only 50% of the equation, you know. Absolutely. That audience is always going to be the other 50%. Right. And they complete the circle. And, you know, I think that's maybe the most frustrating thing about these times that we're in right now is that we don't have that live interaction. You know, we can still find ways to reach audiences and perform virtually, but it's just not the same because you don't feel that energy back. You know, let me ask you a question because when I think about what it must be like for you in trying to direct stuff through Zoom and the whole absence of the live interplay, you know, we looked upon, you know, the whole notion of the age of belief, you know, how I would be curious to see if the audience members were able to retain the knowledge that the fifth player wins every single hand in that long last scene. Right. You know, and whether or not that's possible for them to retain that knowledge and see how much the other characters are just ignoring because they're just getting so wrapped up in this stuff. I wrapped up in their own losses. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. But I mean, you also see that sometimes, like I'll never forget, I've had the luxury of being on pretty much every major media outlet, but one was different than all the others. And that was when I was on Terry Gross's fresh air because Terry Gross puts you in a recording studio all by yourself in another city. So you don't have the interaction face-to-face with her. And it forces you to communicate so much more through your voice. You know, it's like the difference between a radio actor and a stage actor. And now all your actors are Zoom actors. Yeah. And that's a dichotomy that really is just unparalleled in terms of, you know, we just don't have any experience with this. And I guess my question for you is not only if you wouldn't spend a minute dissecting that a little bit, but also one COVID ends are all of these actors going to be better actors because of this experience. Well, I think they will be because we've had to tap into two other tools, but I'm giving the countdown for where we're about to wrap up at the nine o'clock hour here. So I'm getting a visual countdown. I think it will make us better actors because we're having to like tap into other things to really create characters. And really try to do, you know, to convey ourselves in a way that we normally don't have to. So it certainly has strengthened certain tools, I think, for sure. Okay, cool. Well, as it turns out, I have been charged with saying good night for Spectrum Theater Unsolvable for all of us. So Dewey, thank you so much for everything. Oh, thank you. Personally and professionally. I'm so grateful. Spectrum Theater Unsolvable would like to take a moment to thank the Nordson Foundation, the Prone Family Foundation, and the Carter Family Charitable Trust. Their support made this festival and the work featured in it possible. Again, as well as professional, thanks to all of them. And SDE wants to continue to create more work for and by neurodiverse artists. If you would like to take a moment to thank the Nordson Foundation, and by neurodiverse artists, if you would like to help support us in this, please donate via the SDE Facebook page or on their website at www. S-T-E. Oops, actually, let's just go S-T-Ensemble.org. That's S-T-E-N-S-E-M-B-L-E. And lastly, tune back in tomorrow and Sunday from two to six PM for day two and three of the festival. You can see a second play of mine called P-O-N-E's Magic Radio, again, brilliantly directed by Judy here. And just once again, to the cast and crew, I also say of age of belief, you know, guys, thank you so much. I was honored. It was so cool to watch something that you haven't seen in 20 years get done. It's not something I expected to see. Wish I had two words to describe it. Thank you. It's been our pleasure. Good night, everybody.