 Okay D working group documentation subgroup meeting for June 14th of 2022. And if you do not have a link to the agenda, I can drop it in the channel. Please put your name to let us know that you were here. And take a moment to look over the agenda and. See if there's anything that's been missed and basically a lot of copy and paste from the last meeting. Just because folks have been so busy. And let's throw over to you Brian for technical documentation stuff and then I have a question for you that I added to to that item. Okay, so I've been looking at. Where we want to go with the technical documentation. Obviously the conversation at the last general group when we potentially going to add a second OS. I've been looking at what implication that has and I've also been looking at which goes to a pre meeting chat is to how easy it is to join the community. And I listened to a talk now and I'm not sure whether it was an internal company talk or an external one. I need to go find it, but they were talking about what makes a good open source community. And one of the factors of the really successful ones is the ease of boarding ease of getting into the community. If you have to struggle, then you get the diehards that really want to be there will join, but you're not going to get people with a general interest to come and start participating and becoming active member. And I think, I think we need to look at that because, as I say, we can't build easily. And so I am looking at what are the options so I've actually just put a pause on what I was going to do and I'm just trying to think. Most strategically where do we want to get to the documentation. And I think we do want to get to a point where somebody can build. And even maybe to the point where we have the scripts or the GitOps setup that they can just import with a very easy way of this is how you can get started this is how you can do a build with almost zero learning curve. So I think that's where we want to get to the challenges. How do we get there. So that's the way that would work for both for Dora and sent us streams. So, so that's where I've been looking at so I've been looking at things just like is there an easy way to do that we play strategy where we've got the internal images. There are a couple of technologies that we could use whether it's a, whether it's a hook mutating hook, or whether it is using the cryo, going and figuring the cryo mirror with the tag thing I think we have to put a machine set, config or something in there. The configuration only does the, the hashes at the mirror at the minute so until version 412. So I've been looking at things like that. Can we actually get a generic pipeline tech on pipeline going. I've also been looking at how do we get the base tools within okay D so we can use the community, get off the operator, I put a link in the chat, and if you go to the tech Tom project they have an installing an openshipped page, and it's a one line command. So it's not the operator and setting it up that way but there's a one line command on the tech Tom dot whatever it is tech Tom dot dev site, which puts tech Tom adds the menu item in and yet we don't get all of the operators only the tasks and pipelines. But could we then build something in our in our repo when we have the repo that says import this and you get a build pipeline and just plug in the name of the component you want to build or something like that. So I've been doing a lot of exploring around. I'm hoping with the idea of coming up with a proposal of saying, this is what we want as a, a sort of no hassle getting started a building your own rather than just having to go. This is how you find the repo and by digging around I'm sure you'll find the way in which you can build it because I don't think that's an easy getting started. And ideally we do want to maybe push something in and I know Mike mentioned it that maybe we can actually try and get a standardized approach across the repos because I've also been looking at what are the images. And I was shocked at how many base images how many different base images. Now I know the prow system does a replace. So they actually don't build from those. But if you look at the state of the repos, there's a huge number of base images where they just haven't been updated because they're not used for active bills. So none of the maintainers have been looking. So I think there's a set of actions like that where we can go and maybe do raise issues or do pull requests on to the red hat repose and suggest that they change the base image and come up with a standard of doing that. So maybe get some getting some of the red hatches to push that internally within the community as well. So that's what I've been looking at. So I've sort of stopped adding new content and I've really just taken a step back. The idea is to come up with a proposal that we can get everyone to agree on. This is what we want the getting started experience to be for developer not for a user but for somebody wants to contribute, maybe customize maybe do their own build. So one thing I want to ask is, how do we. How do we get people beforehand to participate in the group? How can we as the documentation subgroup. Get people interested in writing some of these docs in contributing towards writing some of the pipelines that will. You know, swap out images and build and whatnot because that's to me, there's the three of us. You know, and Michael, when he has time, right. And to me, if we have a concrete plan. And we have a concrete ask, I think people are more willing to join. And participate if it's not a. And naval gazing exercise where they just haven't got a clue what they're. Yeah. So, again, that's why I want to come up with a proposal. So we turn that into a set of actions and then we can ask people to volunteer for the actions. Right. Yeah, I think the main working group is a doom. If you're trying to attract technical people, because remember it started out it started out as the, for about 1 meeting as the operators working group. And then I change it, change the focus and. Some of us are too dumb to leave, you know, but. The really it's not just the documentation because we do, you know, like the stuff that Brian is now getting into is more digging into technical things. I mean, I see it. I see us as more the community liaison or the community enablement group rather than documentations part of community enablement. So, I see us as the community enablement group. So. So, the other piece of that, and I think you guys are hitting on something that is like if you look at Kubernetes, they have the contributor SIG, which is all about onboarding people and creating ladders for contributions and that stuff. So I think we're on to something here too. The other thing is once you, if you do do the proposal that you're doing, and if we had a template for what people, what we wanted to ask of people, like if we had a template that we could give to CERN and say, here, tell us about your build process, put it into this templated form and structure. We could do that just once and have one good example. We've done in the past these hackathons. There are other community building tools like incentivizing people to share their stuff. We've got swag and backpacks and badging. Fedora has badges and stuff like this. There's stuff we can do that helps people get recognition. The other thing is to figure out how to get other maintainers, external maintainers on maybe we call it documentation, but on these GitOps patterns or the build patterns and different things. So that they're actually getting to be a contributor and getting to be a maintainer in this, you know, we could, I don't know what you want to call the group or how you want to structure it, but once we perhaps see the proposal and we had a template, because I know Jamie, you know, and everybody's, the hot stuff is GitOps and GitOps patterns and things like that. If we, you know, we could do some interesting things around that for deploying OKD and building OKD. And I think we could host a hackathon. We did that a while ago and that garnered me without templating, without a pattern that we wanted people to fit into for our documentation needs. A whole lot of really good insights into deploying and testing on different platforms and we haven't done anything like that in a long time. And now, you know, so maybe the outcome of this, and then to do get some marketing behind it, you know, to get some real marketing appeal, you know, especially if we call the GitOps or, I don't know, pick a good name. I think you're, oh, go ahead. Sorry, sorry. The other thing that I want to do is, I mean, I'm doing an extra gatherings. I want to use them as an outreach and a rec, almost a recruiting. So, if we can tell a story at the gathering of what we're doing in the short term, and if this is something you, you think is useful and want to help, and keep them a landing plate, OKD.io, just like a contribute or whatever. And I think we want to use every opportunity to sort of reach out and say, we are an open, welcoming community. If this is something that you feel is useful or valuable, come join, come help. So, here's my impression. Let me let me know if you folks think this is right. The people who are really deep and have the access to resources to spin up in AWS, etc. are the ones who are the most busy. The ones who would have the time and who are sort of the passionate folks starting out in this don't have the resources generally. You know, they're trying to do SNO or something like that. Would it be beneficial for us to find the resources to get someone to volunteer the resources for there to be an OKD cluster that folks can access who want to participate, play around in, or whatever. I mean, that gets into the whole issues of, OK, you'd have to administer it and whatever. But so many people seem to be stuck on being able to run it, a single note or whatever, because they don't have the resources, but they're interested in OKD, right? I think that is a, an absolute minefield because first thing you're going to get the cryptocurrency miners thinking free resource and but also I think, I mean, why I got involved in OKD is because I had clusters at work that I had user permission at, but I wanted to get under the covers. And when you're in a joint cluster, which comes to the point if we have a joint OKD cluster, you can't do those things. You have to be a restricted user. And the benefit for me of OKD is without having to either break the OpenShift license agreement and running a hooky version of OpenShift, I have a legal run time environment, which is very similar to OpenShift or the same as OpenShift, two manner changes. But I have complete control. I can trash it. I can do the what ifs. I can really get under the cover. So given that then, and actually, Bruce, you had something. You want to go ahead? Well, no, one of the thoughts that came to me is that in terms of sort of a hackathon with a catchy name is the phrase closing the gaps. Okay, because like we do have these gaps between OCP and OKD, which everybody is totally aware of. And with all of the red hat, watch what's cool this time with Edison and company. They're always using OCP. And that's probably like those videos would be a common place where people are going to have heard of us. And then they might come looking for, OK, how can they do that? Yeah. And they want to get beyond the mini cube demos. Right. So to circle around this though, like, do we need to really beef up the SNO documentation and tutorials? We need something if we if we're saying, OK, cluster is a bad idea, public cluster is a bad idea or manage cluster providing that is a bad idea. We need to make the entrance to running OKD in general very follow these five steps to get an SNO up or run this bash script or whatever like. Yeah, I mean, I'm hoping the effort on code ready containers. I mean, we talked about that one about a month ago where and I think there was something on Red Hat TV where there was a refocus on code ready containers. I'm hoping that does produce a a viable laptop experience, which still has the UI, maybe not all the security features, but it still has the UI and the dev experience, but it will run on a 16 gig laptop. So do we then it takes about nine, nine gigs to run? Sure. And now one of the things that you're not going to be able to run a big ID as well. Sure. But one of the things that we talked about is. Okay, but one of the things that we talked about as a group recently was we can't support CRC. Right, because we don't have enough people to we've been talking about, oh, yeah, we're going to do a doc or we're going to do whatever and we haven't really been able to. Do we hop on that thread that's in the discussion between the CRC folks. I don't know if you saw that it's like who is on that. There's a thread that's like multiple people. Some of them involved with CRC and some of them OKD. We're talking about this, this gap that's there. Do we hop on there and push on the CRC folks to get an OKD version out of them directly, right, because they were talking about there's some tricks that they could do and whatever. It seems to me that then if we can't do it ourselves then we need to put the pressure on to get a version put out with the OCP, you know, at the same time the OCP. The interesting thing is, if we do go center screen, I mean, Christian seemed to say that when we go center screen, we are effectively doing the same as OCP does in prowl for OPD. So the question then comes, if we go that way for CRC, does that mean that we get a free CRC out of prowl. That's a good question. That's a good question. Yeah, I don't know the answer to that one. That's a good one. And Christians in chat, but I can't, he's in a meeting right now, so I can't. Well, I'm looking forward to Dublin next week because I'm hoping that I can have a really good chat with Christian. Yeah, sorry that it was so packed last week that there's a lot of stuff we didn't get to because it was. The following week we'll have a deeper dive. Timothy will be back and we can ask more questions, but I don't think you can ask the CRC question out of Timothy. But yeah, hopefully, a few others will Fabiano and a few folks from the team that are working on this sprint. Yeah. Okay D on S cost will be there. Yeah, I mean, sorry, Jamie, I just want to go back to your previous question. I mean, I think something like the Red Hat Sandbox or the OpenShift Sandbox or OKD would help those that want it as a user experience rather than an admin or a contributor experience. So I think they would be merit in trying to replicate said like the OpenShift Sandbox environment for a user community that wanted dev. But then you ask the question, well, if it's the same dev experience, what are we getting? Yeah, that's what I that's a pushback that I get is that, well, if that's, if that's the case, just go use the Sandbox because the Sandbox is there and that's experienced. I think what you said earlier, Brian, about wanting to be able to get under the hood and crash and break things and stuff like that. That's different than a Sandbox or a developer trying to deploy an application. That's how do I break things, rebuild them, get to be a good to submit for this platform and understand, you know, how things break and rebuild themselves and all that kind of goodness. And that's the experience that we want to get. And you can't get that from any of the try before you buy stuff for OCP. Really, no CRC, you know, I'd say yes, but it's it's not real. I don't know. It doesn't feel like to me like a real, I use the word sis admin, so just shoot me if I'm using the wrong thing, but it doesn't feel like that that experience for me and the thing that that would make me really thrilled is, if like on AWS, there was all the images and everything you need to deploy OKD with either F cost or everything was there. And you could just go to a menu and say, OK, I want to deploy this on and here's my credit card or here's my university's account and I'm going to spin it up and then you get to play. But and that would be something that we don't really do for our product. It might be something, you know, that we that would be something actually Diane where a strip down version would help a lot because with the full version is quite chatty. And it's doing all of these monitoring things. And, you know, so you're going to have to update your credit card, you know, max balance pretty quickly, which is not great for students. I did an OKD and AWS. And just for testing what a base OKD install was and it was it ends up costing about 500 a month. You know, I mean, or 460 or something. And that's not so. Yeah, that's like, you know, three control plane. And three workers, you know, that's the that's the default. And just to clarify, I wasn't thinking of creating a a dev workspace for just deploying applications, but instead like for doing pipelines for building components of of OKD and whatnot. So more like working group members having a space to do some of these pipeline things we've talked about in terms of assembling things, swapping out things using tecton to build OKD. Right. Exactly providing providing OKD to build OKD. So that that was the conversation that I was trying to have with people like Brian Cook and Marcel Hild and Karsten Wade is the community manager for operate first. They're in theory is a way for us to get that kind of access to have a cluster running OKD on the what's called Mass Open Cloud. It's I call it Boston University, their cloud that we have access to that we could have a build pipelines. We could do all of that stuff for it. And I think that's the conversation I'd like to pursue for the working group members. So maybe not the general public yet, like, but just for the, you know, you you belong to the working group. And, you know, you you get access to I don't know what the gatekeeping would be, but there is and they're keen to do it. You know, I, I'm keen to get them on a call with all of us to really walk through what the logistics of that looks like. And so maybe reaching out to and Brian Cook is really the technical person working on improving the build processes for OpenShift for OCP. And tangentially he's associated with the operate first team because they're all everybody's agent. But the operate first guys have a separate a separate agenda where they want to do other things and build patterns and pipeline stuff. But I those people I think if we can get them engaged with us are keen to work with us because they think of us as a really big community. And they, they, you know, it's all in perspective. Right. And I also almost I think as a way to justify operate first participation, you know, existing as an as an initiative. So we have an advantage there because we have some real needs and the people who do mass open cloud are all open shift people. They're very OCP and so I think there's an opportunity there. So I didn't try. I don't think I tried to pull in Brian Cook and the operate first people for the next OKD working group. But perhaps we should, you think I think that would be good. And I'll shoot a note to them now and see if I can get them on the next call. It seems like we've been sort of sitting on the idea for a couple months now. Yeah, it started before coup con. They came to me and we have been blathering on about it trying to get them to show up. And I know they want to. I think they may be an explicit invite. I don't know. Yeah, let's send it to him. Yeah. So, move on. So, Brian, moving back to technical documentation. Is there anything that you can glean from what Jack Enschel was talking about from CERN last week to inform our build docs or can should we meet with them and maybe pick his brain in a one on one or two on one. Yeah, I mean, he didn't actually give any concrete examples of the challenges they had to solve to get there going. He was more talking about I think their use cases. I think what will be really useful is to actually have the conversation of where did you struggle in building OKD. And just how much did they build and customize because I got I got the impression that, for some of it, it wasn't a lot of change. Right. But what he described was basically just literally taking the container list the container image list, pulling it down and swapping one out with what they want. You know, yes. So, so, yeah. So how was that like two containers or is it 20 containers or and what what challenges did they hit. And was it guesswork or was did they go through a process to actually figure out what the containers substitutions were. It was a pure guesswork. See, I think it'd be really worth while having that conversation with them. Do we want to set something up that's more informal then like just a quick meeting and yes, maybe come was prepared questions. Yeah, yeah, I mean whether we do it on Slack or whether you actually have a conference. Does it make sense to start with a discussion thread and have him chip in on a discussion thread. That way we can do it async in a spare time. Yeah, if he's willing to do it in the open, I don't know how he seemed very, very open in the meeting. I just don't know whether we would get into the technical details whether that's something they'd want to share or not giving it their internal. All right, well, let's let's reach out to him. I'm happy to reach out to him and just say what would be your preferred method of having a more technical conversation. And is he the the appropriate person there might be someone who's more did more of the actual hands on. Okay, I will add that as a task for myself. So, Amy, reach out to Jack. Okay, can I ask a question is related to what we've been talking about. So the. Partially it's not like I remember, you know, with, with version three cluster up and so on, which sort of got lost with version four. And when I'm looking at why things are so big. A lot of the stuff seems to be things that are required for an operational system that you don't really need for dev system. In terms of reliability and also monitoring. And then what's. So, you know, you need to pull some of that stuff up out. But if you try and do that what you immediately will find is that there's massive dependencies. If you try and pull out the monitoring all of a sudden your cluster, your console doesn't work. So then what I wonder on a technical standpoint is whether or not people have actually looked at the serve dependency graph. And if they've looked at the, the issue of how coupled everything is to everything else and whether or not you can decouple it so that you can actually pull out parts that you don't need and have the rest of it work. So, I mean, that gets into sort of a big technical question. And that's what I'm sorry. Go ahead. Yeah, no, I was going to say, and it may be that. If you're going to try and experiment on the outside, then, you know, maybe that's post building it the way it is. So, but I think that that was one of the things I was hoping that we would get into when we had this very brief CRC working group of how do we slim it down. And I thought that's what Red Hat were looking at. Because when, when they did the 410 launch streams, they did talk about reinvigorated effort around code ready containers. I think they've even rebranded it and we keep calling it CRC but there's another name and it's escaping my brain right now, but they have been re looking at it but not in the context of. Okay, they haven't been a conversation but and slimming it down. Frankly, the focus right now is on micro shift, which isn't, which is not really what we are. No, it's not the user experience that we want now. Yeah, is anybody Diane looking at the, like, what would be the benefits of Microsoft versus the 15 other Kubernetes alternatives. You know, like Kubernetes and Docker or. You know, mini cube or all those things. I'm sure there is some sort of competitive chart somewhere. Yeah, we talked about this, I think at the last meeting is that I don't think that there, there is one readily available. I don't think there's one in the OKD community or the open shift community, but I'm sure outside of the community that there are. Yeah, I also think that micro shift is serving a different master. It's serving the edge computing telco automotive reaching to the very edges of devices and things and needs, you know, it needs bits and pieces of Kubernetes, but not all of it, just like you're describing there. So, but I think we have different needs for different bits and pieces, especially the developer experience pieces. So, I think whatever code ready containers or snow comes out to be. Or if we create, you know, the other thing is we could hack our own slender, you know, the slender man version of OKD as a community if we wanted to, especially if we owned our build process. Just like if we could get on, I mean, this is the I was shutting down so I could log in and see if I could get everybody to talk about the upper if we had our own build process. We could have build pipelines for lots of different things for generic OKD on a Fedora Core OS, something for open stacks similar to what has done something for Mike McEwen's project that he's looking around. So the goal here, I know we keep looking back at the mothership at Red Hat to do something for a slender, but it might be something we have we'd have to hack and build ourselves. Hack out everything you don't want, Bruce, and, and see if we can make it work. It might be an experiment for a bunch of interns. Yeah, maybe we have to stub where things aren't there. We can't change the OpenShift OCP source, so we may have to provide a stub to allow us to remove a component, but still have everything else work as it was there. I think we can learn a lot from the approach that CERN took to make it work, you know, what they had to do to customize it to work with their version, their flavor of open stack. And that's what I'm hoping. And anyway, I digress and I will go send that email and get the appropriate first people on all next week. All right, let's move on real quickly. Repository move timeline and steps. Doesn't seem like anyone else has added anything in terms of discussion to that item. Do we want to just move forward with the handful of us doing this work or do we want to get more people? Well, I think that I think the big one is the OKD repo, because that's where we've got our discussion. And that's where everyone's been pointing to so I think we're going to have to manage the migration of that one. I did an experiment and worked out if you transfer ownership, then everything goes with it. So I think we know how to move it now. But it's going to be that how do we manage getting everybody that we've just got going to the discussion forum there. Over to the new discussion forum. So that's the challenge there for the OKD.io one, we just need to coordinate with whoever looks after the DNS to make sure that we get that synapse switched over to on project. So in terms of the other OKD repo, Vadim just enabled discussions. That's actually a relatively new thing. There wasn't discussions before. We could just say to Vadim, hey, can you shut this down? You know what I mean? Like we want people to go through. Once you transfer ownership, it goes. Once you transfer ownership, it will all be in on you. So we're just going to move everything that's there across. But it's if people have bookmarked it and now I think if nobody else grabs the name, GitHub will do an automatic redirect for a short amount of time. But it's it's more about we don't want to disconnect everybody that's in the community. So I think there will have to be some messaging around. This is what we're going to do and this is when we're going to do it. So to give people a chance. Well, we had set a timeline of July 1st. I think that's optimistic in terms of messaging just because QCon took. So much time out of people and we had the jam packed main meeting. So let's actually I'll set aside 15 minutes at the next main meeting. To talk about this and actually make sure everyone is aware that's the biggest thing is awareness that everyone in the working group is aware. This is really happening. We've been talking about it, but it's really happening. Yeah. Yeah. Alright, moving on because we've got about 12 minutes left. Survey will go out tomorrow in all the places I'm going to post it in. And let me see if I've got this right. Anyone let me know if I've missed anything the slack channel. Diane, do you have control of the Twitter at least. Yep, I can treat. Okay, so the tweet will go out. Should we put a blog posts on the website for on okay.d.io. Yeah. Let's do a blog post for that. Well, rather than that put on the front page. Yeah. People might not find the blog. Let's just put it on as a title. That's my page a block. Yeah. Okay, let's do that. And then do we want to have a set time that we keep it up. Or do we want it to be indefinite? Keep it up for as. Yeah, keep it. Make it indefinite. I would say. Because we can just keep gathering data from it. As we go, you know, the other thing is the talk that Brian and Christian are going to give in Dublin is going to be recorded. So, Ryan, in, in whatever you do, think of that as something that's going to get embedded into the okay.d.io homepage. Okay. So as you're talking the, you know, because I really capture that content. The freshest stuff with the S cost conversation in it and get that on the homepage as well. Okay. Yeah. I need to work out what we're going to say and who's going to say what so I need to get together with Christian and work out what needs to be said at that event next week. He just booked his stuff. And then when in London, he's not going to go. And what we might end up doing is just the 10 minutes sprint version of what you guys do for the half hour there and just have you on stage. Talking about and basically recruiting again. So think about it that in that way we've done both versions, but I really would like the in-depth one for get a half an hour. So use it. Okay. Okay, next up is the, are there any other fact suggestions? I've got those there. I'm sort of chipping away at them. Does anyone else have any suggestions for frequently asked questions that we should ask? Or that we should add the answers to. Anyway, if you do, please add that maybe I'll do a discussion item that's like people can just throw suggestions into it. Like, okay, here's things. SNO documentation. Nothing, nothing. I don't think there's any more discussion on that. That's an important point from what you were talking about the first item at the minute we don't have SNO on the site. And I think that's really important because that means that we nobody can do a reduced resource install of okay D now. Well, let me see. I think an ask of the main meeting is somebody that understands the new process. Yeah, needs to write the instructions. And I'll see Michaels on and needs to work with Michael to get those instructions into the docs. Yeah. So I think that's an ask of the main meeting. Okay. Well, I will add that to something to ask at the main meeting. Depersonalizing homelab documentation. Are we just going to do we want to just go and change these or do we want to reach out to the demon tree? I haven't seen shrie at the last meeting or so. No, you should message. Yeah, I'll be update his stuff and and of course the team we can. Is there a better descriptors Brian for that other than Vadim's homelab and trees. Well, I think, I mean, I'd like to know what value they provide. Not not not not in a nasty way but because when I see the word guide. I think it's going to guide me to do something or help me do something. These are literally example installs. They're not guides in any way they are just, this is what you can do with okay D. It's an exemplar of uninstall. So maybe create another heading that is example installs and then but also take the depersonalize it a little bit and you can keep in in the heading and just keep it you know who the author is and everything like that but that if that I'd be more comfortable with that as well. And this goes to like getting a template for people to use and reuse to so. But I think I think example installs is a good thing and then we can go get out. How about example installs and configurations because it's more than just more than installs it's there's also like how I run it type stuff and I was going to say there's also some an issue with. With currency, because I think I think it's the deans, but he went and did a hacked single node install before single node install was there because these are these are version four five or four six, not four 10. Brian, does it make sense then for you to pull these out until they are updated. Well, I or moved around or manipulated in whatever fashion. I mean, it comes back to getting content from the community. I'd like, I'd like that to be proper guides. I mean, we're not. But if these are outdated and if they're not helpful right now, does it make sense to hide them until we possibly. How about this. We add the menu item, drop them into just call it examples and then have whatever the title is, you know, not vetting, whatever. But have them there so that we don't lose the legacy and then make a request at the next meeting to see if there's anybody who's willing to take vettings document document is example and try it again. Right now that we have snow and then make and. And well, again, we need the template. We need a little bit of better turned and look for a volunteer to take what that even did and what Sri did. And turn it updated try it for the new thing and give us feedback and update the docs and. You know, I have, I have swag. If I need to send them an open shift backpack. I would do that. You know, I, you know. I think that's trying to incentivizing people a little bit here. Yeah, I mean, as an idea. Is it worth trying to do a working like like a hackathon or work because I mean Daniel was sort of started taking on that but never really did anything but I think we need to actually, again, looking at that how easy is it for someone to come on board. I couldn't, I couldn't get on board with what the information that's on there. I ended up watching a YouTube video. Yeah. And because even with the doctor IO, it was taking me through the configuration and I didn't know the cabler I didn't have a terminology. I look at it now and it makes sense to me, but the very first time I did that. I didn't know the vocabulary. I didn't know the domain. I didn't know what it was asking me for. So I went and found the YouTube video. And it showed me exactly what I needed to do. I could pause the video and say, oh, that's what that value means. And so I think it is worth just going back and maybe having a workshop. If we can get enough people, four or five people, and let's do a two, three hour workshop, and let's define what a guide needs to be for each for a platform, create a template, and then we can go and ask for volunteers. Well, Brian, this is actually this predates you but we did that. What was it two years ago? Or yeah, I think it was a year and a half ago. Maybe it was like maybe the last winter. We did something like that. And it actually this work that you're seeing was sort of spawned out of that and the guides were sort of spawned out of that. And that was the effort when we started to sort of migrate the guides from the one location to the other came out of those guides sitting there for a while. So Diane, can we set something up in August? I would love to do something in August. Yeah, because that would give us enough time to publicize it. So if you want to look at your calendars, including Michael Burke, because it would be lovely to have a documentation person on around and see what dates and just let me know and maybe think about it by next week. We could socialize a date and I'm happy to use BlueJeans or Zoom. Zoom, you can have breakout rooms and stuff like that and host it. We can even do it using, not HackMD, Hopin. Again, because that just have four tracks or whatever, one big track and then spawn up new tracks as we need them in Hopin. And then we'd also capture their names and everything else for future recruitment. Hopin was what we used last time and that turned out to be really helpful for that. Yeah, I'd be happy to do that. Just pick a date. I will look, I'll just say that I'm going to be busy mid-July, so August I love. I'm moving my mother to Canada, slowly but surely. And hopefully by August things will calm down. So we'll get that. I'd love to do that. I'd be happy to do that and start to do a cadence of things along that line. I think we also could have a Hack, not a Hack, a Hopin hackathon on testing the CentOS dream deployment. So we're in theory. I'm probably not supposed to say that that's going to come around July 15th ish, but that's very and practice is something else. So we'll hear it. We can ask Timothy, but I think right after that's out, it would be nice to have a hackathon on explaining how to, you know, the differences, if any, and how to get it and do something. Some publicity around that to see who does it and I haven't heard. Anyways, now we're at the end of our hour. Yeah, so we're at the end of the hour. What I actually had as costs as an agenda item, I'll bump it to next documentation meeting. The gist is going to be, we should probably have a conversation of how do we talk to the community about it. Right. And I don't think we have enough details yet to be able to talk to the community about what we're going to want to. And just so, you know, what I have asked is Michelle Crickey and. Aviano and that team to write a blog. And with Timothy and Steven about the coming of S cause, not in relationship with okay D. And then a follow on one in relationship with that. So, and maybe highlight the work that the folks who are in the sprint to the engineers and get them to come. So my goal is Fabiano probably will show up again next week. I'm hoping he drags Luigi and there's a few other folks on that team that are doing that sprint. I really need them just to get engaged with the okay D working group on an ongoing basis. I think the more we love them for what they're doing, the more likely they'll want to stay invested in and it will, they'll be invested in it. For a while, but again, I don't want to burn people out like we've done with that even though all the support and love we can show them for the work that they've done. And this is probably their 1st attempt at doing anything with okay D the guys and gals that are working on it. It'll be fun. Packathon date. Let me know. I'll set up the, we'll talk about it next week's meeting. And then I'll set up hop in and host that and we can do it for 4 hours or a whole day. That's what it takes. Awesome. All right. Well, we're over time. So let's call it. Call the meeting now and I'll see most of you all next week. Right. Cheers.