 I didn't think this was going to work based on like what the TTV, the FDA and I were just telling me about my recipes like a year ago and now I have all these products I can walk into and like listen to people like up on their treatments and back. So everything's wonderful. This is Startup to Storefront, the podcast where we talk to business owners and entrepreneurs about the untold challenges of scaling a business. Sounds good, right? We're here with Margot, founder of Wave Maiden Ale Works, an amazing, hopefully new beer brand to come out. We're here drinking an amazing beer, cocktail ale. Tell us a little bit about your company and what this is. So this is wine. It's funky experimental herbal ale that are rooted in plant medicine. And so what you are drinking is a ferment of organic plant material, organic sugars and alease. This one is Hibiscus Glossyx and Goji berries. It's a beautiful color. If you can't see it, Hibiscus color comes through. That's delicious. It tastes very clean, like super clean, really crisp, really nice. It's like minimal ingredients and you can taste everything about them. That's amazing. I'm getting the Goji berry. That's delicious. I got started by wanting to marry my favorites and things such as craft beer and plant medicine. Is your background in plant medicine? It is and it is not. So my journey with craft beer started at 21. Right out of school, I was working in a thankless, very low paying job in PR. And so I started. Very thankless. A lot of yelling. Yeah. Yes. So it wasn't really proof of the soul. But in order to travel, do things I wanted to do, I started serving table on the side and I got a job at a place called Rocking Group in El Segundo. And it was an awesome place to work. They had 50 rotating taps. All local beers? It's cool. At the time, the LA beer scene was really small. It was actually less than 10 breweries. What year was this? It was in 2011. Okay. So not too long ago, but okay. Got it. It was pretty fresh. So I was lucky enough to try everything that was coming out of our local breweries. It was El Segundo brewery across the street, like Monkeish and Torrance. And I just thought an amazing craft beer education there. You know, not only did I fall in love with the beverage, just as like an endless possibility kind of thing, but also seeing like the community it read. I felt like they just brought friends together. And it was just like a happy thing for people to share. And so I became a craft beer nerd from that point moving forward. But it was really just sort of like a hobby. So fast forward. I started working in production. I left PR. It wasn't for me. And while I was production managing commercials, I found that I'm starting to feel a little sick. And I feel like this is like a story to hear a lot of people that find themselves like working in wellness or serving wellness brand. Like I started to feel sick. Yeah. How did you figure out what it was? Well, I went to a couple of different doctors and got different opinions. And I was like, I don't think this is for me. Like I don't want a commercial diagnosis. What did they tell you? A solution. So that's, it's not, you know. Another story. This is our second story where someone got diagnosed with IBS, but it's like, you don't find anything out. Yeah. And it happens. It's really not helpful. And it's so disappointing to hear about that's still happening. A lot of people tell me that's still happening to them. And really our food is like our biggest issue. And so I started as dean nutritionist after like trying out a bunch of different weird stuff. I really love the way my body is responding to adjusting my food. And so I got down this path of like really trying to clean things up. Not that I was necessarily allergic to, but I was definitely really sensitive to gluten. And I wasn't able to. What did you change in your diet specifically? Yeah. So I mean, just realizing that just because I think that it's an organic corn tortilla or just because it's like a vegan cheese doesn't mean that it's not like a heavily processed or with the tons of sugar of the food it's supposed to be. And you know, going through that much processing like on a molecular we are losing so much of the nutrients. And your body is just basically like deprived and stressed. And it's like, you know, but I'm feeding it all the things that are all natural. Right. There's no regulation on what's all natural. Especially in this country. Yeah. I've had a friend go all vegan and he just gained a bunch of weight. Yeah. And then he, but everyone knew he was vegan. He'd like post on Facebook all the time. But he thought he was being healthy, right? Thought he was being super healthy. And then after a year, he posted on Facebook just saying, you know, being vegan means so much more than what I thought. And this whole time I thought I was being healthy. But the thing that I need to stay away from is actually processed food. And it was like a revelation to him after being, you know, vegan for a year. Right. Because french fries are vegan, but french fries aren't. Oreos. Mine and body. Yeah. Oreos are vegan. Because it's just all sugar. There's no actual food in that. No, nothing. No. It's not. Just no meat. It's not meant for children. No. Or anything. Yeah. So, I mean, once people start to temp, which I feel like we're really going to, just like food revolution at the very beginning of it. But we are starting to like awaken to like food being our medicine. And so I was experiencing this like six years ago. And I just like, didn't have a lot of friends that were into this. So I was like being a little crazy in New York. It was too hard to go out to dinner with me. And that was kind of the end of that conversation. And at this point, did you know that it was gluten for sure? I knew that gluten didn't make me feel good. Okay. And I knew it wasn't allergic to it. I wasn't celiac. But I knew it wasn't for my body's chemistry, unless it was like a super special treat, which was usually like a crazy fear that I got to kind of allergic for something that, you know, that was like the cheat that I was willing to risk it for. But so were you super sad to learn that you had just found this love of, of craft beer and you were, as you say, like a total craft beer nerd. And then you couldn't really have it because you were then gluten free. Yeah. Like that is so stressful, but be so disappointed. Yeah. I mean, first little problem. But no, it was still really sad for me. And like what was available? Like going to bed mode and like a little bottle shot. So I was like, so I can drink like some not very tasty, like sorghum beer that was like made by a fake conglomerate. I'm gluten free and all I drink is Corona Pacifico when it comes to beer. Right. And you know, we have like more come out, but it's gluten reduced. Right. It's not gluten free. So for people with celiac, it's not a solution. No. Anyway, going back to the food as medicine. So I was really into, into nutrition at the time. I was following some really small brands are making like tonics and, and different powders. And I went to this event, Mercado Segrado. I just like it's first or second year I had done it was really small. Cure now, right? Cure now at the palette though, yeah. Okay. And I found like a couple of women that were making their own like crystal essences and different tea blends. I was like, this is cool. I want to make it for myself since I'm on school. Like I'm healing my self journey. Yeah. And they're like, actually there's this woman. I think she started a branch of a school kind of similar to where we went in California. Like I think it's called Gaia. You should look it up. And so I went like a week later and it took a little bit of like the whole searching, but I found the school and I started to read the description of like what we were going to learn about and like some of the activities. So it was a class, like a, how long was the class? Yeah, it was actually like a full year. Wow. So a different school. A school for who? What kind of like, who, what kind of people are in the whole plant medicine school? Oh. Yeah. Okay. Plant spirit medicine. So using like the intelligence of plants and also learning to be in relationship with land. So hard, like clinical, like herbalists and then part just like earth's tender and like emotional. Like long as the chakras. Did you know you were going to make like, did you know the whole time that you were thinking beer plus? Whatever. I didn't know I did. And it was so, it was so funny because I just gone to a psychic for the first time. It's the one and only time I ever went to a psychic. So you're on the full road to discovery. I was like, let's just go for it. Yeah. Yeah. So I was doing my, doing my whole exploration of all things weird and uncomfortable and I went to a psychic and she was like, yeah, oh my gosh. It's hard to hear all the noise because you have so many guardian angels. And I was like, oh my god. Yeah, here we go. And then she was like, okay, I see it. And she was like, okay, you have some of the guardian angels because you have so much work to do and are here to protect you. And you're going, you're talking to the plants and you're taking them back and you're putting them in bottles and you're listening and you're going back and you're talking about land and you're putting more plants in the bottles and you keep filling the bottles for plants. So I was like, bottles. She kept saying bottles. Yeah. And I was like, I don't know like, I don't really touch like plants on the regular. I like gardening. Yeah. Great. I like gardening. I like being outside and going camping. I was like, I don't know what just happened. And then I was reading this on the webpage and I was like, no way. So I sent it and I was like, I mean, maybe I'm meant to be there. So I sent it an application and I got an email back from Marisha who is the woman in charge. She started this California branch. She's the teacher at the school and she was like, it's perfect. You were actually the very last slot I have open. No way. You'll be enrolled really next year. Wow. I just felt like this whole time it's just been meant to be. The pieces are just fitting. Serenity. Yeah. So you finished the course. What do you what's like one thing that you learned in this course that you didn't know before? I'm sure there's a lot of things. Yeah. What's what do you really? Yeah. Well, I think like the biggest takeaway for me was the way that Marisha taught us to work with plants is that we would sit in meditation with the tea made from a plant before we were told anything about the plant and allowing it to come into our body and consciousness like paying attention like where we went or what where we found like sharing consciousness like with a plant and letting it activate certain parts of the body before you have like a frequency notion of what the plant is supposed to do for you was such a unique and amazing way to learn the medicine of what is available. Totally. To us in nature. So you graduated from the program and then what did you immediately think you wanted to do? So I'm still working in production at the time. Oh wow. I was in production for I mean I actually started in high school. So I've been in production for 10 years and I was like I really just need something like to feed my soul a little bit more. I don't know if I'm really ready to like totally leave because it's just like, you know, I'm gone with this great money. It's flexible. Yeah. Sometimes like any, you know, anybody, you know that I listen to it's like in the industry, like they're like, this is a terrible job. But you know, it was really working for me at the time. A lot of me to like go through the other programs. I started taking in clients from a side and a lot of the time I was checking with them they're like, I don't know, I'm not like, I love the tea maybe like I know when I drink and I feel that it's just like I want to have like a glass of wine or a cold beer after work. I'm not going to like sit and make my tea. Yeah. And I was like, I can't drink anymore. Yeah. And this time you weren't you weren't drinking craft beer, right? Right. And I was drinking a lot more wine and like I was making my teas and like adding like salts or water and like, you know, like quality, like organic mescal or vodka to it. And so I was a little like not interested in the beer options that were out there. And so I was like, I wonder if I can start putting the plants into the beer. Totally. Like this bad thing. And so I found this book. It's called sacred and healing herbal beers. And it was written in the 90s. It's a it's a gorgeous sort of exploration of like the history of our brewing from ancient permits all the way up until like the 18 and 1900s. But it is trying to paint the picture of how we were not confined to the ingredients that we're confined to now. Okay. Because now. How so? Well, there's sort of two parts to that. One is the way people were brewing even like 20,000 years ago is obviously like what was available, like readily available outside their door. Right. I see. There were no imported ingredients or anything like that. And you know, we have like, nature's always been growing like medicinal plants, but we wildly and abundantly all around our humans are. And they were taking those and they knew how to decide if something was, you know, poisonous or psychotropic or just delicious and culinary. And so that was what they were fermenting. It was that and sugars and these were open vessels that like wild yeast would come. And in some cultures, they would like say prayers or sing songs that they believe like called in these magical yeast. Like I think would prevent the beverages for them. And that was the way it was done for a long time even in the 1300s, 1400s, which is where witches were brewing for their communities, ale wives. Ale wives are called ale, hence the name. Here we have the name. Tell us about the name. I feel like this is a perfect segue. I will tell you about the name. Well, the ale wives, all these women, they were like going and they would like commune in circles like this imagery of like the witches that were burned. They were like communing in nature and they were coming together and saying, like, oh, I found like this patch of like, you know, God more over here, like we'll all go gather it together. They were just misunderstood themselves and brewing for themselves. They didn't wear those hats, though, did they? They did wear the hats. Oh, the hats. So that when they went to markets, they could throw them up. They had people knew that they were, they were in pen and fire, so it's like a marketing tool. And you could see that above anybody in the crowd. Yeah, because it was high right out. I feel like they were so misunderstood. Here they are trying to help people and they're condemned as trying to hurt people and cause problems. Right, right. And so that just makes the other point of this is that there was an act called the German beer purity act and it was written and I think it was around 15, 19 or something like that. And it said that when they wrote it, it actually said the only ingredients that can go into beer moving forward are barley, hops, and water. And when was this written? In the early 60s. That is so, that is crazy. How long did that remain the case? That's still the case. It's still the case. So why did they determine that? I mean, if all these other things could be put in it? Well, there's two theories. One is that there was a monopoly on these goods, like the monks. I'm sure tried a monopoly on a lot of these goods and they wanted to force people to use these ingredients. The other is that some of these plants that I'm referencing have the effect to really lift people up out of their own bodies to help them shift consciousness and to make them feel like more excited or more sexy or whatever it is that they're feeling when they're drinking alcohol. Is that what I'm feeling right now? That's what it is? Whereas hops are, I said, if you ask me as an herbalist, I mean that didn't know anything about beer, what do hops go for? They're not that good for you. I mean, if you needed like surgery back in the day, you would want to drink some strong hop tea and try to like put yourself to sleep. Yeah. That's so interesting. Beer makes me tired traditionally, except for corona. Right. There's a check style of beer too, right? Like a check style of making beer? Well, there's all kinds of... Is it the same ingredients though? Just a different process? Right. So those have been adopted as like what malt beverage, what beer can be is pretty much contain these ingredients. And we really like lost... I mean, yes, we can... There are so many styles. I mean, in the US, like our beer competitions, it's like over a hundred styles that you can create with those ingredients. Because, you know, we're still adding fruit, we're still adding spices. Occasionally we have all, you know, we have labs now where we can have so many types of yeast available and overhead into us. So yes, there's still so many possibilities, but we're not actually infusing any of our ferment with all these really aromatic and medicinal plants anymore. Until now. Until now. Yeah. So you go to this experience, you... And this book sounds like pretty, pretty amazing. I read it in my daily life. Yeah. Exactly what I've been like waiting for. It like seriously, it like set my soul on fire. I was like this is like I have to go make this right now. I went to a homebrew store. I needed nothing. What do you buy? What do you buy to start homebrewing? Yeah. So I mean, you get like a car boy and an air lock and... A car boy. Yeah. It's like a, you probably assume they're like the last, like small like three and five gallon. Okay. Glass can... I've never actually made beer, but I've been around it a lot, which you, I know a little bit about it, but I've never made it. So you get a car boy and then... And so an air lock, something that like goes on top and it lets like the gas escape, but it keeps anything from all coming in. Yeah. They're very like simple tools. You can get like a syphus when you're ready to transfer, you can like transport it into this separate bucket and they're like racking arms and bottling ones to get it from the bucket into the bottle and a capper. And you said you'd never homebrewed before. Right. So how did you like discover how to do it? Homebrewing stores are generally like, they're the most lovely people in town. They like want to talk about it all day long. And so if you go in without any ego and you're like, just give it to me straight. Set me up. Teach me. They will, and you're like, and you can give them your budget and like what you're trying to do and not know anything and they will take their time with you. So really, they're an amazing resource. So how long did it take from when you brought this stuff home and you were like, I'm going to make my own beer? Like how many trials did you go through before you're like, this is good? Well, you know, I never made anything that I found like bad. Wow. So you just, right off the bat, it was delicious. I can't say. Well, for me, it was delicious. Amazing. So I, you know, I walk, you know, I had a lot of struggle. I was like, why are you doing this weird thing? It was this normal. And honestly, like I consulted YouTube. Yeah. Like, you know, the University of YouTube, like pretty much was able to troubleshoot between that and like calling them homebrewed store guys or like a couple of homebrewing friends. And my recipes were pretty unique because I wasn't doing barley and hops. I was working with these plants. And so I approached it in a way that I normally approached making like a tea blend for somebody. So I would sit down and like, depending on what season it was or like what I maybe had like fresh from a friend's garden, I was sitting with what am I trying to invite into this? Yeah. Like do I want to make something that makes people feel really creative to make something that like helps somebody feel broken heart? Like what am I trying to invite into this recipe? And so I would put plants together based on that and then experiment. It was just about flavor profiles experimenting with different sugars and then the yeast, the way it goes. And yeah, it was a trial and error. I brewed for over two years before I really started like giving it out past like just like three or four people. Yeah. Sure. And then in this one that we're drinking now, what's the name of it? It's called Riser. Riser. Okay. Yeah. And so the plants in Riser are all like really elevating. Rose hips are the fruit of the rose bush. It's like at the end of the summer when it's given like all of its like nutrients to these beautiful flowers, like its last thing is to fruit. And so roses are the highest vibrating plant we have on earth. Wow. And then hibiscus too, right? Hibiscus, yeah. It's amazing when we're in our waters for our creativity, but it's also just like a really like energizing plant. Amazing. Heart-centric plant. We have two beers with us. We have Riser that we're drinking now and what's the second one that you have here? Someone's called Comer. And Comer is made with mudwort, yarrow, and Damiana. I've never even heard of what it's called. Yeah. What? Okay. How's it supposed to make you feel? A really like bright light. Like it makes people sort of help like with their inner flame and you're like really confident and like yarrow to me is like a warrior plant. Like it just gives you like that little extra push to go like do what you need to do. Cool. Damiana is for everyone is like a really great tool for working with people with like depression and anxiety. Wow. So it's really like that's awesome. I'm gonna have that one next. Are these plants native to California or do you have to find them somewhere else? For me as part of my growing pains, like I have sourced with a third party called Mountain Grows for all the plant material that I'm making in like on a commercial level now. But when I have my own space and I'm able to grow many more recipes, I helped me work. I have like multiple farms I'm talking to locally. Awesome. To be sourcing this, but these, that the company's wonderful with their price. Everything's ethically farmed, ethically and harvested. It's all organic and material and sugar. Wow. It's the same process where I know when you make beer, you basically it's like a big tea kettle and you're just putting like the only beer I've ever seen made was a Hibiscus beer. And so they put, I think it was like a five pound or 30 pound bag. I can't remember. It was this massive bag of Hibiscus. Is it the same in your case or you're just adding? Putting massive bags of measuring out massive amounts of plant material into gigantic bags and putting them into that thing, those blue houses with the kettle. Yeah. And is it challenging to source that much like of the rose ingredient? Yeah. It can be, right? It has a, yeah. Actually, I just completed a course with, there's an organization called Kiss the Ground here in Los Angeles and they partnered up with an organization in the East Coast called Pterogenesis International. And it was the first round of a course that was about regenerative supply and sourcing. And it was looking at the big picture like how us as companies that care about our products and our in relationship with like the land in our communities how we can come up with a plan to continue sourcing ingredients on a large scale and to make sure we're doing everything we can to support people that are putting regenerative practice in play on their plan. So that we're not creating this crazy demand that's really degenerative for the earth, which is totally the opposite the point of what you made it. Yeah. The question I have, and I know we're jumping around a bunch but we're trying and it's delicious, how would you serve it? Would you serve it like a regular beer or would you serve it? So right now we're drinking out of these enlarged champagne flutes it's kind of like a wine flute I guess that's what I'd call it. But how would you serve it? Would you serve eight ounces of it or would you do 12 ounces or less? I recommend a 12 ounce. 12 ounces, okay. Yeah, that's like the recommended for that I found like a two of a glass because they have these really like extreme vibrant noses on them or it helps. And then yeah, because they have that consciousness shifting ability like I don't get in the whole minute so you can like check in but like a lot of people start to feel like they do get as opposed to a beer making them feel like a little bit like sluggish sluggish that they feel a little bit elevated. Yeah. And so that I feel elevated. Same, same. There's no question about that. I love it. Temperature wise do you experiment with serving it at different temperatures or is it I find that colder the better. It does just as well just with like on the draft system like same time like 38 like same PSIs a little bit and has no issues like pouring and I and I think like it's good that's cool with R&D. All right, where were we left for? We were asking you about do I look like the ABC Yeah, so right now you have like an R&D facility, right? Yeah, so I did what it's so this is sort of like the beginning of the like battle for me and this is what this is why we made the podcast. So we made the podcast because people like you have a wonderful product and you want to go out and start giving it to the world. And this is when you this is you're in the part where you find out how difficult and annoying the people you have to deal with are and blah, blah, blah. You're all crazy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, so so you're looking for a facility that are super easy and fast. Yeah, right. No, so I basically I got brave enough and like that, you know, like we said, my background was like in totally different things. And I was like, listen, I believe in this, like I have all the things that have told me that I'm like born to do this and I'm just going to scare myself a little bit in both ways. I love it. The fit of, you know, like a little chunk of savings and working in production. I was like, let's see how long this lasts and just like put myself out there. So I started to just call like and I had that scale from production. I'll call anybody and stay on the phone until they can make the answer like that I need. So who would you call? The TTB, which is like yeah, yeah. Yeah, so TTB is like a what you know about that. Basically it's an agency that you need to get on board in order to serve alcohol or become licensed to do so. Correct. So TTB just about what different operations look like. You can become a wholesaler where you contract your recipe out to somebody. Really didn't want to do that only that for some reasons I didn't want to lose control like my recipe and I was also a little bit nervous because there wasn't a lot of like reference for me to scale up. Yeah. And because nobody else is really working with this kind of material and I was just like didn't feel right to me and wanted to remain in control. I wanted to get my hands on it and like see the process every step of the way. And so I found out about doing something called an alternating proprietorship by talking to them. You could rent space in an existing brewery where you have to record when you're using the brew house and like which fermentor is yours and when you're there and when you're moving everything. So there's like a lot of record keeping and compliance but it does allow you to have your own brewery to notice and your own small beer manufacturer license. So according to the government you are your own brewery but you know you still don't have your light bones like storefront tap room. But you could you could have a tasting room and then and then brew. You can't have that. Okay. You can't have you don't have tap room. It's just a license to brew commercially. But it is a type 23 license Can you sell? on the state side. Yes. Okay. So that's great. I didn't know. It's still type 23 so when I when I find because I use you know that thing language when I find my space I can transfer my type 23. You're in type 23 and type 23 I think is beer and wine. Is that right? Type 23 is small beer manufacturer. Okay. Yeah. And what is small in terms of barrel size? It's like 100,000 barrels or something like that. Oh it's a pretty big special. That's pretty big. It's like most. I mean even any craft brewery now like how me is a small beer manufacturer. Okay. Got it. But for reference they're not small at all. Right. Crick. Got it. There are plenty of people with type 23 licenses that are making more beer than I will make in the next time. Yeah. Yeah. That's really nice. I didn't know that. So that gives you a way to scale before you have a full-fledged location. Absolutely. Yeah. So pretty it is you know I think it's something positive of flexible. And how much is it? So you have to submit your paperwork to how long did it take from then to get in here? Well it was really I was lucky enough to find like a friend that almost acted as like an introduction like broker consultant to introduce me to a brewery because I couldn't find a brewery LA that would allow me to do this. Okay. Because people don't really want it's a it's a Yeah totally. They're usually using it. Very true. So the more paperwork for us and like we're trying to grow and so like what if in a couple months we're like actually can you leave? Yeah. Because we want to use this tank. But you're you're paying them right? You're paying them like a rental. How much what's the are you let's talk about that agreement. So are you renting it out for one week a month or what's you can't right? It's got to be like a month right? Yeah. So I pay like a rental to keep my paperwork and my license on the property and then I pay per time I use the brew house. Okay like per hour or per week? It's a brew day. Brew day. Got it. Okay. And then ask for like labor and whatever. Don't help you out. Then I can like I do a lot of myself. I also have like a balance assistant for it and more about we do a lot. Nice. For me I'm like So how much do they charge you in like a month? How much will you pay? Um I can't really say that I feel like that might violate Okay. our agreement. Is it hundreds of dollars or is it like thousands of dollars? It varies months and months depending on what I go through. But it is Is it reasonable? It is reasonable but it is not not ideal. A viable business model or term. Okay. Okay. Because we run into space issues. Sure. With storing and um And trying to keep everything separate I would imagine right? Yeah. One of your stuff and their stuff. Yeah that's tough. And um like empties and like I live in Venice and this brewery is in San Frida and I self distribute you like literally myself distribute and so I have like over flow of like and empty canes and things happening all the time and just like ordering ingredients and like marking materials and doing festivals and all the things that come along with that. Like once it's all said and done it's a really not a long term plan. It's a proof of concept. Yeah. It's a way to test things out get started right and then move into your own space. And do you can it after or do you can it there? So I keg and I keg it there. Yeah. Okay. And then I think they're all kind of cold and then they get sent out to accounts but I've only been selling I've only got my license at the beginning of April and I've only been selling then for like a little over three months and I'm already like sold like I can't take on I have about 18 and a half so I can't even really take on any more some of the stuff out of the product. Wow. That's amazing. That's great. Finger heads. Perfect. It's a good problem to have. Like the lack of sleep is starting to feel like worth it and so I'm starting to feel worth it because I feel like the proof of concept is already kind of like happening. Yes. Definitely. Just three months in and I'm like look if I can make more I can sell more and then people want it so. And I know we have two varieties here but how many varieties are you are you making or selling? Well I wanted to start with three right away and then I just have like risers the most popular and it's so popular that I have to like keep rooming it and I can't really figure out when I'm going to be able to like bring the other recipes. And who's your market? Who's your primary buyer? Is it is it females? Is it men? Is it people that are gluten free? Yeah. Or is it the primary market? Bars and restaurants that want either like the newest thing or that have like a clientele in areas that enjoy like something that could have like a little bit of like a health factor or like gluten free factor to like something like Cafe Gratitude or something like that. Places like that. That's very surprising. I thought like oh my me look like I'm like I can't really love this well like actually most of my accounts are like on the east side like Echo Park and Highland Park kind of receive this with open arms so it's just and it's just How do they introduce it? I mean it sounds like so I've been to I've been to I've been with different breweries where we bring the whole let's say six of the beers and we bring them to them and all these beers aren't on market and they're not an ale or a pilsner or an IPA. You don't fall into one of those categories. We're meeting with like the the beer whatever person. Program managers. And this guy's always got a beer and he's always like tasting the beer you know doing that whole bit and then he's like here's the problem I have with your beer. Nobody knows what it is. They can't place it. They can't say give me that IPA because it's not an IPA they can't say give me this because it's not that IPA and so then and he's like and we're not we don't want to sell your beer we don't want to introduce your beer to the market because then they're the ones educating and taking a risk on right and it's unfair to all the other you know relationships they've already established that's what they're doing with you though it sounds like yeah so I've put together like just educational documents as well as like I am the owner and brewer and so I think because I've decided to spend my time going out and sitting and like answering all these frequently asked questions and making lists like specific to what they think you know a lot of times they'll say like well I think they're going to ask us these weird questions and I will sit and like come up with really simple answers for their bartenders so that like I'm not trying to convince them right of something I'm just giving them the tools as I would answer I was able to sit and hang out at the bar and I'm sure they appreciate it because there's no guesswork there right if I was at Niko Park let's say I stumble into a place where your beer is what and let's say what am I asking for do I say can I have an ale and then they introduce you or what's the maybe it's listed as one of the names so there the statement of identification for a riser is Hibiscus Herbal Ale and the statement for Comer is Damiana Herbal Ale okay and so I like it because it makes people curious about the plans totally actually like going back into bartender like how's it going like what's going on and they're like oh it's great like I've sat at bars and listened to people be like wow and they're like googling on a phone what Yaro and Damiana are and then like ooh maybe my mom would like this tea how amazing like she's like going for the thing and I'm like oh my gosh like that seriously it makes my heart swell like that is so much of this is to make this like a gateway to bring these plans to the masses and like what better way to introduce them than through like beer yeah so now you're so your contract or not contract room but you have this this kind of nice temporary pilot license let's say things are going well you're in stores now you're like what do I do now right so I I mean it is the ultimate dream that always has been to actually have my own space I want to have my own facility I've been like looking at my equipment I want talking to my suppliers I've been touring every brewery that will let me come in and like ask them all of the questions but I think you know every single part is a challenge totally literally like nothing that's not pushing back against me right now so it's so honest yeah that's true yeah I mean I have I'm having a great time I'm serious there's like it's like I'm telling you like she promises everyone she just loves it yeah everything is fine I'm fine it's fine oh no it's not that I am able to shoot this like that felt like it was never going to happen wow like yeah you I've had so many entrepreneurs like nobody will talk about it in a little while but like I didn't think this was going to work based on like what the tgp the xda and I was just telling me about my recipes like a year ago and now I have all these bars I've been walking into and like listen to people lighting up when they're drinking this and like that amazing so everything's wonderful that's an accomplishment it is like half of like my mission is already like there now it's just how do I get even more of it out there right you call a bro property silly property yes has that been like the biggest struggle that you think were as of you know as of yet that you're like okay finding my own space yeah it's crazy I mean they're right now in the neighborhood first of all like it's it's I've been telling you I've got over two how are you doing that so what are you looking for specific demographics or what's the just somewhere you like yeah so it's like part of it's like my left right as part of it's my right right right so I'm a little follower so I always like I did my homework like going to the city like these are like the three spots I'm looking at like I'm gonna sit here at this counter and like highlight them all and ask you every question about it until I feel like I know what I need to know to even like consider this part of Los Angeles and so I've gone through all of that it's pretty painful but it's so helpful that's such a good upfront due diligence process to start there because a lot of people neglect that completely that they're even gonna get permitted yeah zoning is everything and like I've been in a couple times and you know even not knowing like there's a thing called Zimas and yeah yeah Zimas is great and people you know they like sign leases before they even looked at it's shocking how many people don't know that and so you know I'd say go in and ask questions so I've done myself a lot of favors so I like calling and going and going into ABC offices and like well I'm gonna show up all that attitude and all the questions until I know what I'm dealing with a hundred percent and I'm not still like planning and guessing like what I'm allowed to not allowed to do like you have to show up and go totally uncomfortable government stuff and you have to so Zimas people who don't know is basically a website you can go to you type in the address of where you're wanting to either you can get Zimas.org but Google it it's residential too Z-I-M-A-S and um it's residential or commercial and it tells you everything about the proper zoning for the land or the building that you're trying to get and so here tax records here in LA if you're wanting to start a brewery you have to be C2 or you can be a manufacturing zoning which is an M zoning in Houston if you want to be a distillery it's an F1 so every state city has their own abbreviation or letter but to your point you know if it's zone residential and you're about to sign the lease you're never going to become a brewery and you're totally right about people I mean right now we're in process of re-zoning a building or getting a zone variance and we knew that up front so we were totally prepared for it but when you know it up front what it allows you to do is give yourself like nine months or make the the deal contingent upon your CPU variants so you're protected as a buyer but to your point a lot of people don't right and I just want to touch on bureaucracy and that process I think a lot of people assume that you know when these municipalities or these organizations give out you know with guidelines okay email this call us at this number or whatever that the most effective way to reach them oftentimes is to go and sit in front of them and to wait all day until someone will talk to you and give you the answers you need because there's a lot of conflicting information even from within their own their own organizations so I mean you're spot on with actually going and figuring it out I had a reset like I can't tell you like trying to like read through stuff like that and I feel like two weeks and trying to understand like everybody and just go in these offices like no matter what so true kind of permit or license or just question like it doesn't matter that's their job to answer your question no it they might want to be like that's on this when on our website like I know but you tell me but I want to hear it and I want you to explain it to me like and that's and that's their job and that's the reason that's always there just drive and go and get your answer like that has been like the greatest thing for me go in the morning yeah go in the morning first thing in the morning yes yes because that's where they're the happiest like their day only gets worse yeah right yeah don't go to the building department on a Friday afternoon everyone cannot wait to get out of there yeah exactly the can is beautiful by the way for people who can't see it it's a wave it's a wave what is it is it it's an ocean graphic it looks like yeah it's a crushing on the beach I want like the elements and nature always be the name the name the name the name the name the name the name the name so that it's a story the name mythology and the things I learned in the dire school was working with not only plant energy but goddess energy went felt right and so I was like my company like the plant spirit or goddess energy in it and so I found these goddesses called the wave maidens and their father was a god named a deer and he was responsible for providing deer to all the other gods and him nine daughters and he taught them how to brew it and there's this beautiful imagery of these like giant dresses like mermaids like crawling upon ladders and like dump the yeast into these like massive petals and wow that is so cool that's so powerful I love the ocean and then like these beautiful Norse mythology I have to ask because I too am a female in a male dominated world I'm in construction and I have to know have you encountered any sort of a sexism in the brewing industry and do people like are you just totally unexpected for them? What has that been like? Yes It is a very male dominated industry I felt like I've been lucky enough to only have a couple cases of feeling really uncomfortable or really condescended like publicly but those are not people where you forget that and you move on but I would say like it's even a little bit more challenging for me because I'm like I'm gonna show up and I'm gonna bring all these like really lovely smelling flowers and they're like no seriously cool or what are you doing and so a lot of people want to push back like I mean you don't have barley and hops this is like you should get out of the brewery and you know I just say this has been a rule for too long and like the market is so concentrated and if it I feel like if you're scared of it that's like long conversation but like if you're really just like this lady doesn't know anything about what real year is then we're just gonna have to just lost yeah because the thing is you do know and you've found you know a better way you found a different way right so right I mean and I right now I'm not because I'm writing equipment that like wasn't equipment that I wanted from my from my recipes I don't have the ability to this is all technical stuff that people probably don't really care about but I don't have like multiple steam jackets that allow for mashed rests for me to use the ancient grains in my alt-rain brews so when I have my own space I'll be able to also be making these alt-rain brews which will have a little bit of hops in them and also some other plants to compliment but they will be gluten-free as well some people it's gonna be gluten-free dedicated brewery amazing so who have you found is your market to go back to that do you think it's like who really enjoys your beers the most um I mean if you're young people older people young people want to try something new people that I mean people that put foodies that just like new flavor yeah and then it is delicious certainly like a flavor I've never had in any beer before and it's an amazing thing yeah so it's not for everybody but people that are open-minded and they do like don't if you're a good person you'll like this beer yeah they'll keep all like one or the other way more generally yeah so let's go back so you're talking to brokers now and um I'll just say personally I work with a lot of brokers and um if anyone knows of a really good one please let me know because they're so they're like you know it's tough it's out there you know so tough I've started conversations with three people and I just can't get any momentum and you know they want to like give you all the promises up front but it's like totally yep it's good to feel like there's a bit of a fire under your ass totally and I have that and I'm like always like moving forward with this like there are goals and things you made and like I don't want to be panicked but if you're not presenting any results like oh no I'm just hurting my process right it's you know so many extra emails and exchanges and you know site visits yeah it's stressful for everyone involved so like if you're not looking for like if you don't want to be a pyramid like yeah you don't gtfo all anything it's confusing yeah isn't it that they don't they don't well I I mean I guess they just don't see they don't see it from your side they don't see it like every day that you're not in a space means another day of sharing the space that you're in and not being able to produce more varietals and you know that's that sucks like and they don't they don't feel that sense of urgency because they're just they're going to get their commission they think you know if you keep keep up with it my word I mean it's out of buying writing health and I can't seem to find people to fall through helping me and it is painful so it's kind of shocking you know I've dealt with it a bunch and it's just the most confusing thing because they're they get paid pretty well and even that doesn't incentivize them to work harder faster no it's strange so in your in your next step you're looking for a building how big of a space are you looking for I have been saying between 4,000 to 8,500 and where you have you'll you'll obviously brew there so it'll be a brewery and is it like a 10 barrel system what's your 10 barrel system 10 barrel system yeah okay with a tasting room component the tasting room yeah now I feel like based on this conversation and the beautiful cans what if I'm walking into your brewery right what what's different what's because I feel like it's just going to be amazing yeah what walk me through I think you have an aesthetic and you have a vision for this what that's like so walk in it is a life the whole building what's on the walls do you have plants on the wall like plants on the walls there's rules on the walls it's like so much like texture there's a lot of ingredients and like buckets of people can explain like place now I will have like I can't wait I have too many ideas right now but like behind the bar that it's like overwhelming so like I don't want everybody to see the plants to inquire about the plants but yeah it's open space it's bright it's moving tons of greenery I'm envisioning like hanging plants yeah lots of like coastal elements and like textures I want it to be like Southern California a little bit of like folly but like also it's a huge focus on like really feeling like held by the plants have you hired an architect yet or is that I haven't your next step I haven't talked to them for a while if I was in a work with one when I thought I had a broker and an architect for working for me but no I have not officially signed on anybody that hasn't felt like totally right and I just want to like feel this is I feel like I've sacrificed everything for this and I want to connect with people that like I feel they're genuine sure yes if you're a broker in LA and you really want to work with Margot please let us know like just hit her up please so you're looking okay so that sounds amazing by the way thank you yeah what a vision I think 7,000 square feet is probably where you need to be six six to eight yeah I was kind of and I I really want there to be some before I have like outdoor space and also like uh some element that's like divided to do like workshops and like whole talks and everything become part of the community yeah yeah I want there to be like a lot of teachable moments and opportunities so like make it fun like drink some beer listen to each other come up with ideas like this is I love it a place to like breathe like positivity for our future and so yeah I definitely need like a little outdoor space too because I plan to compost everything we can cool and we have food on site or what's your is there a food plan food isn't really intimidating to me like I don't want it to turn food truck food truck yeah smart and I think there's so many in L.A. and you have synergies I think some of them yeah similar ideas similar visions yeah and I've also thought like bring them in for a while and then when I get felt comfortable like even essentially having a good way to meet in food travel that's where you know permanence yeah would you disclose the locations you're looking at is it several is it a few yeah it's three that I've narrowed it down cool um and so I was looking and somehow I area like why have this done and uh South Bay each three yeah I do have a leader in there I'm just like having about my space yeah yeah it's hard to find space tell us a little bit about what that's been like even on your own so without using the broker you're probably using loot net loot net is like the Zillow of commercial yeah and like I know I'm looking at loot net there mm-hmm like inside or in these market deals especially in LA I mean that's one thing that I think I we're using a broker here in LA and he just happens to know every single owner of every single building in certain areas and nothing's on the market but he's able to just because he knows the stories he knows is if if you the father owns it but the two kids don't like each other they're not right now they're the owners like he knows everything and so the the localized knowledge when it comes to commercial is so so important I felt like I'm missing just like it's like it's really what it feels like loot net is fine like generally at searches like I feel like it's never going away I've gone and driven around like spent two hours and like taken pictures and written down the address in the phone number oh it's smart yeah yeah yeah it's really smart it's really boots on the ground that it hurt yeah um I have somebody and like the second round of it like do you even be like can you toss on your email address if I miss you in your next help like I love that you're doing that I love it that you're doing it that you're trying and let's okay so now are you thinking about raising money now are you I am completing my pitch deck I'm like a perfectionist to a fault how much are you looking to raise um a million and a half are you looking for to have like a small pool of investors or to like mix in some kick starter refunder things like that or like one method I've explored I've taken calls with like a variety of crowdsourcing crowdsourcing but with like credit investors and that kind of stuff like I've probably had like four or five calls with companies like that and uh to be perfectly honest just like like that's the point this conversation with people will like I feel like they want to like know a little bit about my like story and potential and then they just like get me off the phone and then they're like you know or they'll throw like numbers at me so fast but it's like confusing I'm like can you repeat that and they're like well you know that to you and it's like I have gone I've worked way too hard at this you mean like wraps up these companies yeah like I am not gonna like understand every angle of this and make sure I'm getting a a good deal here like so I feel like they try to get people that are just like just so eager to like start something right they'll just sign off like yeah and now all of a sudden unless people that hosted your kicks are on time like when you're a company and you know and I think it's so important too to like bring in a lot of people think like money is money but if you're bringing someone in as an investor that's gonna micromanage your whole process and try to like get in where you know and just be overbearing then that's not what you want now you know it happens all the time and then the biggest questions are like how much equity do you want to give so how much percent of your company are you willing to give yeah I mean I feel like for me like I because I've been like a one moment show from day one like I'm willing like to trade a little with equity for people that will add like value totally like sweat equity is like like people don't put that value on that I'm very open to it I wish I was money motivated I'm not really a money I have never been my whole like really money motivated person some people get at the bad thing I'm just like I think it's a good thing like a passion project of like me trying to contribute something I believe in for like a greater good like that is truly what was it about and so I am not like focused on like how fast I'm going to like be rich like I was never partly focused I'm like who's gonna come apart and like help me do something yeah better and greater for everybody faster I feel like people that focus on the money are focusing on the wrong thing you know you need you physically passion has to be there you actually need money to get started but you're not greedy about it your main focus is getting this out there to the world and I think that's amazing that's wonderful so what are you what's your timeline so let's talk about so right now it's it's um August 2019 and you said you got your approval right yeah in April after like a boom government shutdown can't believe that oh it was like a little bit of a shutdown yeah especially that it like will be before Christmas right that was a long shutdown yeah so yeah speaking of time crisis like I didn't see my family for Christmas because I was like oh I can't I had to get home because I am poor from doing all this yeah be like I'm just gonna get my license and I want to make sure like when January is back it comes I'm like throughing and handling everything because you thought you were gonna get it yeah and then it was like because that's my birthday and you wanted to make fear for my birthday January 2nd and I also was thinking about that totally I appreciate that and then the government shut down and you lost all that time yes wow so um yeah it was really like it was just that we're gonna work and it was speaking I was like going down that path is just like reading negativity and like I want to get the license and only like pump my like positive vibes into the whole process like this is like a challenge that in five years I'll be like remember those four months that were really working I wanted to start I couldn't start because government like that's yeah you'll never remember even birthday so um I got through that I got it in April and now yeah it's been four four over four months barely over four months that I've been a licensed brewery so timeline I'm like you're ready to go I'm right I'm ready because because I see that I can't produce enough for like the accounts right interested I'm like I'm ready now yeah totally you know when to grow so you have an assistant brewer that helps you on demand um what do you think your next hire will be to actually get a head brewer I'll open myself right so you can focus on fundraising and do you know anyone or are you looking for people I'm looking for do you want to put it out there into the world yeah I'm putting it out there totally I am probably going to throw it out to the pink food society which is this wonderful organization for all of us women and beers with professionals to educate and fundraise and uh vent and all these so I'll put it out there and then yeah I'm fully just putting it out now I'll put it out my Instagram which is sure on the Instagram yeah what's your what's your handle tell everybody wave me an L works wave me an L works yeah um so I'll put it out there but yeah in the coming months that's another like we were just talking about like sweat equity like I would be willing to give a small percentage to somebody that wants to continue nailing down some of the recipes I've explored before like and getting that's amazing there's a lot of brewers that would jump all over that yeah and like we're doing recipe creation is so cool stuff like this is like an opportunity like I want to make that want to play that is like just wants to be part of this vision and it's like I'm giving a lot I want to continue a lot of what I'm doing but I'm also getting a lot of creative control to the right person so and are you still working at somewhere else or were you on are you full time on this I'm full I'm full time I'm more full time on this yeah double full time yeah uh I that's great yeah I'm able to like pick up here and there stuff like little private clients so happen I like up until up until like when I got my license I was still able to like they play or like do payroll for friend run productions and stuff like that so yeah like I think most people like you know rice and beans for years yeah real you know yeah well thank you so much for coming on the show yeah we've done that a bunch you've been there yeah the rice and beans get better over time yeah but find at Wave Made in Ale yeah it works yeah Wave Made in Ale works at Wave Made in Ale works and if you're an investor hit up Margo if you're if you have space or if you know master brewer of space in those areas that Margo discussed in LA between 6,000 8,000 square feet roughly please message us message her the can is beautiful the product is amazing make sure you guys go check it out thank you yeah it's delicious thanks for coming such a good product I can't wait we here at Start Up The Storefront would love to hear feedback from you reach out and let us know what you think about the show make sure to give us a rating on iTunes anything over five stars is the only way to go our music is composed by DoubleTouch you can find us on Facebook and Instagram at Start Up The Storefront for more information on the products and businesses featured on the show check out the links in the show notes make sure to subscribe so you don't miss a single episode thanks for listening and we'll see you next time