 Welcome to a special episode of Marriage News Watch. I'm Matt Baume with the American Foundation for Equal Rights, and I'm so pleased to welcome Alan Shane and Norman Sunshine, authors of the new book Double Life, A Love Story from Broadway to Hollywood. Over their 50-year relationship, their adventures together brought them from struggling on Broadway to running Warner Bros. television from small illustration gigs to winning an Emmy, and in recent years too, confronting the possibility of marriage at last. Alan and Norman, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for letting us be with you. Well, you have so many amazing stories in your book. It's hard to know where to start. I wonder if you could just begin by telling the story of how you met in 1958. I'll start that one. As you know, I opened the chapter with getting a phone call, but I'm trying to concentrate on my work. And it's a man whose wife has just gotten sick, and so he has to set a ticket to see a Jamaica with Lena Horne and Ricardo Monobon. And so, of course, I'm dying to go there, so I do. I think it's about going to end. He announces that Ricardo Monobon will not play today. It will be Alan Shane. And everyone groans and looks to get out of there, but however the orchestra comes up real fast, Alan is the first thing that appears on the stage. Quite well. Very worked out, kind of bare-chested, and then he is on the civil boat, and he sings to the Civil College. Savannah and Savannah open the shutters, and I remember the lyrics to that thing, and Alan comes Lena Horne and jumps into his arms, and that's Alan. And then they play throughout the whole thing quite wonderfully, and Alan is charming, and it's a nice voice, and he's able to pull his own Lena Horne, which was also amazing. And then my friend says, I know this guy. He was also a television actor. He says, let's go back and congratulate him. So we do go back and congratulate him. I'll just do this real fast, in a kind of bikini, with this man putting black makeup on his body, because this was the matinee. He was going out in the evening, so they were making about the evening show, and he was rather grand. He was on a little platform, very, very high, and kind of talking over everyone, and I wanted to show I liked him, because he seemed kind of overbearing, and full of himself. So that's the first impression I got. Okay, Alan. Well, for me to play that kind of role I wasn't really a singer, I wasn't really a dancer, and I wasn't a native. This was a show with all natives, Ricardo, at least with Mexican, but I was in virtually what was blackface in those days. I was made up very dark. I'd had to dye my hair dark. And in order to get through the groans from the audience, and the groans from the cast who didn't particularly want me to... They wanted Ricardo to be there, because when the audience groaned, they wanted me to. So I just had to psych myself up and act as if I were a star. And when I'd come out for performance, as I did when I met Norman for the first time, I was still very high. I still was trying to be his great star in order to get through the performance. So I really wasn't very nice with Norman, and yet I was just fascinated by him. I'd never seen anybody who looked like that. And I wanted very much to know him, and it all kind of went wrong in the dressing room. And I figured I'd never see him again. But after that, we just ran into each other everywhere in subways on the street. And how we got together, of course, is in the book. And I'd always thought of that. When you were meeting each other and forming your relationship initially, what was your understanding then of what it was to be a gay couple? Well, we didn't really... We didn't really know many gay couples, but the few we did meet, we didn't really care much about. Either they kept house, and one with the man, one with the woman, and one with the coke to the other aid. I don't know. It didn't seem like a very attractive situation to us. We both had careers, and Norman wanted to be a famous illness creator, and then finally an artist. And I wanted to be a big Broadway star. So we were both very ambitious and kind of equal in that sense. And there was no attempt at any kind of role-playing because we didn't know that. Also, there was no real roadmap for what was happening to us. We didn't have role models in those days because we didn't know people who had good, equal relations, men or women. I'm talking about now, same sex. Didn't have equal relationships, and that's what we wanted. And as a relationship developed, it was really out of the sense of interest in each other, friendship, of encouragement for each other. It was very much a kind of building that was being built from the foundation of whatever the sexual attraction was was something else, and that was very, very nice. That also evolved into something, until something I believe, called love, evolved. And we wanted to be with each other all the time. But it took us a long time to decide to live together because in those days it was, for me as an actor, I couldn't really live with another man. If they found out that I was gay, I wouldn't be sent out on most roles. So it was a very difficult time. And we didn't have examples around us to see that it was possible. It was two years before we could actually think of living together. And we were just parents and relatives and friends. I mean, how do you explain this? In those days we never spoke of it. Now we're talking about it all the time. It's a whole different world. Now, you were both working as an artist when you met. Alan as an actor, Norman as an illustrator. Was there a degree of openness that the arts afforded you, or did you still need to remain closeted? Well, in terms of my work, yes. I mean, after all, I'm in the work office, evolving off with a lot of gay artists around. So it wasn't this big a deal. It was not until I went into advertising that I started handling clients and dealing with lots of money that I haven't been much more circumspect about culture. In Alan's case... Well, I was an actor and you couldn't really be known as gay as an actor, as I said. They would only send you out for eccentric roles. They wouldn't send you out for a leading, young leading role. So I had affairs with women and was usually seen with a woman. Until Norman. And then actually I left acting and one of the reasons was that I wanted to be more with Norman and I felt we could be freer in our life. As long as I was an actor and had a relationship with him, we could not really have an open life. You know, it seems like that's still somewhat the case. I mean, there have been actors now that have come out of the closet, but my impression is that there's still a lot of pressure in show business for actors to not talk about themselves. There's no question about that. And especially I think for the male the few people who have come out, I think are wonderful, great courage and they're managing their careers very well. Ellen DeGeneres speaks strongly of what she's done and that country loves her. And when I was in Hollywood, as president of Warner's television, we lived together because we've always lived together for the last four years or 50 years, whatever. But we didn't make a deal out of it. We didn't shove it into people's faces. And finally when they were considering whether I would be president of Warner's television there was a lot of talk about whether I could do it since I was gay, by that time they knew and they felt that people couldn't do business as well. I mean, it's all nonsense. It's nonsense. And hopefully it's changing. Well, as you would call in the book there is this incident. I'm now employed by that agency. I'm on my way to becoming the creative director there. But there are clients who are very conservative and just a list of them. So I had to be very careful. However, I also became a painter while I was an executive. I had my first one-man show in New York in a New York gallery while I was a VP creative director in that agency. Unheard of. So The York Times got wind of it and they wanted to run an article about me. So, which I allowed them to do and this woman who, and before the interview I said, you know, she's going to ask me something about how I live her. You know, whatever. My living circumstances. They wanted to take a picture of me in my apartment, in my studio and all that. I said, what do I say? She asked that question and we looked at each other and I said, you know, I think I want to tell the truth. And Alan agreed. Alan was then working for David Suskind again, very, you know, not exactly homophobic. Yes, homophobic. Well, most people would. I mean, it was so homophobic. So she did. There was this interview and she asked the question, do you live here, you know, love and I said no, I live here. I share this apartment with Alan Chang, producer for David Suskind. Well, the article was the, in those days it was like one page. It was the almost entire page, pictures of me and that statement was in it. And the next day I went to work in my agency, no one said a word. But a word, it's like the article never happened. It's a big deal. Alan had the same reaction. No one said anything. Suskind said they never said anything. He could have. Anybody could have. They could have said it in a creative way. The silence was like thunder, you know. Was that liberating to speak openly about your relationship or was the reaction so stressful that you regretted it? No, we never regretted it. We decided to do it and we did it. But we realized it was the first time New York Times has ever talked about men living here. And that's why I think people would startle now because you have your picture and the songs get married and you're in love. All these contrasts and every weekend it's wonderful. Was there a point or was that the point at which he said enough, we're just going to be out with everyone? He never said enough. We really didn't. We always lived what should I say? Not cautiously, but we lived our life really behind locked doors. We never hit people in the head. No. It's just the way we're doing now. I mean we made a decision to do it and now we do it. The butcher in the market comes up and says, I read your book and it gave me goose bumps. Everything. I'm reading about our sex life in a way. It's very strange or a woman in the bookshop, an older woman said to me, I'm reading your book. She said I'm so interested in reading about other people's lifestyles that I would dream of doing. These people, it's a different world. They're coming out of the bushes. This little guy works in our local shops and my brother came out of 32. My other brother came out of 18. I'm not gay, but wow. Love is love and I'm so happy. I only wish that they have a relationship like you do guys. We decided we wanted to tell the true story of a relationship that lasts as long. And if it was going to be true we had to really go all out with it. So we did it. There's openness in the book. There's quite a contrast between how freely you talk about the people and your relationships with each other and with other people over the years. There's a contrast between that openness and the caution that you have to exercise earlier in a relationship. Well, we got older and things were changing. We were aware of that. And also we were dedicated to each other. And once we realized that we were going to spend our lives together I think we were much better. You know, it was interesting to us later on we're going way up to now which is why we kind of wrote the book. We talked about the Joan Rivers thing and the dinner party in which they went around the table. Do you remember that? And Joan, she's an old friend of ours in Los Angeles and she has a country house near us here and so she had a Christmas party and she went around the table and she said we're going to all say what we're grateful for. And you remember this at all? And so she, everyone groans and said, no, no, no, we don't want to do that. She said, no, no, no. So everyone went around and said, I'm grateful for this. I'm grateful for my puppy dog. I'm grateful for this. And then they came to Alan. She came to Alan and Alan said I'm grateful that Norman and I have been together for 50 years. Not that I've been with Norman. Quite a difference. Okay, so everyone was in shock at how old we were we think first. And then someone came up and said you guys are really... I've been with my partner for 18 years. You guys are role models. You know, that sort of thing. I said we were an inspiration. That was a word that really got us to write the book. Because we thought if we could I mean, we're not an inspiration but we thought at least if we could show young people who don't believe in long-term relations. I think also, Matt, we have to say we didn't mean it to be a serious book. So we talk about funny things. We talk about celebrities and Hollywood and the art world. So we hope it's interesting. But we hoped underneath it all there would be a sense that that would. It is very entertaining to have the story of your really lovely relationship mixed in with quite a lot of fascinating backstory about these people that you're working with both in Broadway and in Hollywood. Was it fun to revisit those relationships? Was it stressful or difficult? Some of the things were stressful because we tell each other things that we're not. But you're talking about celebrities stuff? Yeah, it's quite revealing in some parts. For example when you go backstage and meet Lena Horne again many years later That was very disturbed. That was very disturbed because I really had loved her and she I thought had liked me enormously and we had a wonderful relationship. And then because she changed so in her politics and her life and Alan became the enemy in a funny way because she made terms of her. And I think she related me to the whole thing of they didn't give her showboat which is a big thing in her life that she didn't get Julie in showboat and she felt that now I was part of the movies Warner Brothers You know the line where I was when we went back there she said hey Mr. Mobile Hartley never gave me any work so she absolutely was transferring her anger at me It was a bit of a shock It was a bit of a shock It's not all easy I mean any of those relationships are complicated and I hope we've done that in the book I mean I think we've shown that And then there are other relationships that I mean your affection for some of these people is so clear the way you speak about Rock Hudson for example That was an extraordinary friendship that came out because of our own disaster with the fire burning down of the house and how generous he was to us who really didn't know very well at all and then the ensuing friendship and then watching him die of AIDS It was a really condensed period And he was a wonderful man and very generous and very sweet We never were the closest friends with him so we're not talking as if you were our best friend he wasn't Good to everyone He just was a decent good man There's a lot of problems I know it's a question We all have problems You have a very moving line in the book during the AIDS crisis when you refer to the community as a threatened fraternity Was there a sense of unity that emerged from the crisis that hadn't been there before? I don't quite think that I think it began then to grow together Hollywood is a tough place People are very competitive and I think the AIDS thing may have helped them grow together as they worried about their friends We're still very frightened We're quite sure what we're dealing with No, and remember it did take a while before anybody knew what was going on I mean we had dinners in which people weren't feeling well and one guy said I just have these rabbits and I know it's from the rabbits So it was a very mysterious time and you of course were there but this is what the early AIDS I mean, Rock when he was already sort of going to dinner one night and we couldn't believe what he looked like, Chris Chargers and then we were going through all the glasses and the dishes after he attached No one knew how to behave But certainly as you lost dear friends people did grow together in their love of the people who were dying It was a difficult time That affected us certainly but the relationship itself I think was so solid at that time It went through a few bumps later on but that's true of everyone And then 2004 comes along and so much has changed and that's when you decide that all of a sudden find yourself in Nantucket on a beach about to be married to each other What changed? What made you feel that that was the right time to get married? It came about in a less romantic way because we had met this judge a liberal judge from Boston and he had some dinner party, some mutual friends and we started talking about that and he said, you know, you have marriage now you have this own little time I suggest for whatever state that the two guys will get out of it or whatever, get married and he said they can't take that away from you so you will whatever So we thought, well, why not do that? So it was sort of that sort of thing Then as we started going through which becomes comical getting the ring going to Tiffany's it starts to become a reality and then we made the arrangements for the wedding in Nantucket and then the whole process started to happen. When we went to Nantucket and went to the town hall and asked, as we were signing marriage license, it was very early everyone was so nice to us I mean, I couldn't believe it Well, we couldn't believe it Out in the open, out in the open we were saying we're going to get married and they were saying, oh that's fine and giving us even before the marriage it was a bad day, it was foggy and we started, we looked at houses for sale, you know and we were stalling and then finally meanwhile the time was coming out we were supposed to meet the woman I guess about four or five o'clock and we were picturing and we didn't know what we were doing and we finally get back to the hotel and it was going to be a beach across from the hotel just the two of us, a photographer who were there and this woman and she shows up in a long black dress striving red hair, it was very dramatic looking went across the street and then we are standing in the spot where we could go through this ceremony and the sun comes out, glitter and suddenly it's beautiful and she says to the two of us now, come close, grab each other's hand and look into each other's eyes and at that moment you really see each other for a moment in how many years we've been together and the aging faces and the beauty of the day and the preciousness of this time Alan burst into tears ran to the ocean and I ran after him and comforted him and brought him back it was so moving the ritual the marriage, the being out there and the open, the sun shining beneficently well, the amazing thing was being out in the world, we weren't behind closed doors so tell the revelations and also we had done it because we finally felt we should put our money where our mouth was we began to hear of people we had a few friends who got married and we thought, if we believe in this if we believe in this relationship we have to take the next step which is to have it be God and be equal to other people and we had never been activists in any way but we began to feel we must take our role and one of the ways we feel people should do it is like getting married, we're very much in favor of that not for people who don't love each other certainly and not for people who doubt that they should get married but for people who are really committed I think it's a step forward we know we have some we read about grand pit which is an admirable way of saying well, I'm not going to get married until every friend I have in the world can get equal marriage for all of us I mean the fact is that we take is wonderful and it's showing the world that we are going to someday be not probably while we live but of course we're so aware that with every forward step you have the self-righteous right we try to feed it back we create, you know constitutional amendments and all that stuff that they're trying to do to keep us from having equality but all the problems that we have there's a couple still exist we can't leave money to each other without paying enormous taxes all the things that you have to do I take my power of attorney and all that stuff we have to do you know all that lives well, Alan Shane and Norman Sunshine it's been such a pleasure the book is Double Life Love Story from Broadway to Hollywood thank you so much for speaking with us thank you