 Welcome. It's Jenkins documentation office hours. It's the 11th of March, 2022. We're on the Asia documentation office hours time. Thanks very much for being here. Topics on the agenda news. The Linux installers switch from system five to system D. She code Africa contribute on a troubleshooting section for the user handbook and open PRs. Any other topics mag. That looks like good to me. Okay. So delighted Wednesday we released the latest LTS and Darren Pope and I did a live stream today 90 minute live stream on the changes and there will be one or two more live streams. The changes with the key things for the, the upcoming ones are likely the red hat, red hat system D update and the Debian slash system D update. Okay. Darren was a was did went through it and hit some bumps and so he he noted the same way I did that there are managing a system D based environment is new it's different right system five in it we're all familiar with it. We looked in the source code and the original Linux installer code was from 2008. We're using for almost the full life of Jenkins, this other form of an it system. And so this change will probably bump into a number of surprises. Yes. Now that you and Darren do these seem to do these live streams on every new major release. Is there a reason that we don't put a link to that like in the change log or something. We could but it the live stream always happens after it. Ah, and so do a PR against the change log afterwards I don't know. Yeah, the change log really isn't well suited to hosting video inside of it. It's a it's a bulleted list, but we could certainly and we could have a link. We don't have to I mean we don't have to embed it we could link. Yeah, we could what how about is a different angle we could add a page to community that Jenkins that IO with the live stream. That would make sense yeah, because there it's a then it's a place for a conversation about it and people could comment back and forth. I like. I mean that's and Darren, Darren doesn't object to that he likes that the videos are shared and he's glad that they're useful. Great. And they really are so cool. Okay so two dot 338 released UI improvements are continuing. And there's lots to test and lots to explore. So next topic then was Linux installers, and so we've got on the switch from system five to system D. We've had to to bug reports coming came have come in. Neither was a particularly what I'd call a really bad one but one was that they had to do. They explicitly enable. Enable the service after upgrade. It's an easy command system CTL. Enable Jenkins, and it's in the documentation that you need to do it, but I think previously in the environment they were in it was, it was already enabled so that's a, it's an interesting one. It's a documentation anyhow, before something goes wrong. Right. And then the other was that conflicting argument values were handled slightly differently. And that one is a fixes is in a poll request. Okay. One of the things that Basel Crow who has created it, who did the development work for it is that we need more troubleshooting guidance. And we need more specific description of the information that makes a good bug report for this type of bug. Right so this is this needs more data. More data than other bug reports need. Yep. And I think the topic there is Basel's thinking right now is that he'll probably be the one who writes that but we have to watch and see. Yeah, cool. Yeah, well and and the section on the, there is a doc section on on managing system D services, like we had discussed last week. Uh huh. It has been created and published. It's for me it's still a little lightweight, but it will get better. Who wrote that. I did. Oh, okay. It was took our outline that we had created two weeks ago or a week ago, this outline here and filled it in. Okay. So, it's a good start. Yeah, well it was, it was actually quite helpful to have had this list because it let me then sequence it prioritize it, talk about why I should order them in this way or that way. So it was really good. Yeah, all right. All right, so. Now next topic was she code, she code Africa and here, a Zenab and Elizabeth. Oh, actually I guess I should note tomorrow. We have a Twitter spaces session tomorrow. With Zenab. Mark, and two others. And what Twitter spaces is. So I had a live audio. And allow questions and answers. So it's basically runs from my telephone, and I connect in. So this will be this I've never done this before we'll see how interesting. Yeah, I don't know what's going to go on, you know, in terms of surprises. It's a worldwide thing and I'm really impressed at the technique they're using really live audio worldwide from my telephone, very impressive. What's going to be tough though, in general, but especially your style, when they answer a question you go let me share my screen and show you how we do it. And that's that's one that's not going to work right because this is not a screen sharing thing but the con the inverse is that audio may actually work into Nigeria and into into Tanzania and you know places like that, when video sharing is just too high bandwidth. Right. Yeah. So I did submit three project ideas. Okay, or them. And the three project ideas, I thought were reasonable they were. I've noted them somewhere but there is one that I did not submit and I've, I've double checked with Zina and she says no, please submit it Mark. I'll submit one suggesting that they'll, that we'll put a project manager on on it and mentor that project manager and have that project manager then help us. Okay. It'll be. I mean, train with the best, you know, Well, train with train with somebody. How about that. Yeah. I am my statement stands. Okay, great, very kind of you. All right, next topic then was a troubleshooting section. And here I think we ought to just review oops wrong page. We ought to just review it let's take it. If you're willing Meg to review it with me. I would love to review it with you because I, if I was reviewing it on my own I'd be sitting here I wonder what Mark thinks about that so this is perfect. So, so what she's done. This is the troubleshooting Jenkins section that we had discussed earlier. And what she's done is she's added it to the top toolbar and added a new section into the book for troubleshooting. All right. And then moved to two of the pages diagnosing errors and obtaining a thread dump to the new location. So it's got some content already. And now the question is, I think one of the things we need to be sure of is, are we okay with having separate pages for each of the troubleshooting, interesting troubleshooting categories and I think we are because we've been using that before but let's, let's look at this and then let's explore it a little bit together to see how the navigation feels etc. Okay, yeah, I mean in general I think it's, it's good for especially for a project like this, because you've got small pieces to update without right right into each other. Exactly yeah so by, by partitioning it that way so now if we look at the where are the environments here's the environment okay so view the deployment. Dear, thanks for joining us. We're, we're reviewing a, the troubleshooting section that was just proposed by I see now. Okay, so troubleshooting Jenkins there it is. Oh, I should make the screen bigger so that it's readable. Okay, so troubleshooting Jenkins right there. Okay, so resolving issues you might encounter while running Jenkins this section is suitable for all Jenkins users. So diagnosing errors. And this is just a copy from from the file where the same content exists elsewhere a move is what it is so we should check that the that the move was successful that a redirect actually works and then obtaining a thread dump. So the idea is these these subheadings seem seem navigating correctly to me so if I click left works for diagnosing errors right works for obtaining a thread dump and up works to find the top page. I think it's, I think it's well enough behaved. So, so now let's test the redirect. So just a moment while we check for redirect. Okay documentation. And where is thread dump obtaining a thread dump is right here so notice this URL doc book system administration. Right here on this page. I'm going to go there. So this is the old location and it should automatically redirect us. It did. Good. Okay. So did you, I don't know if you saw the flash there. I'm not sure that zoom carries the flash forward. One of the things is, is the page, the page will temporarily go to the location I gave. Doc book system administration. It flashes up the URL it's going to and then it takes us there. Cool. All right so that worked for thread dump and the other one was the other one she moved. Oh, diagnosing errors. Okay, so. Diagnosing errors is this one. And again as a check here and here. Okay system administration redirect and there we are. Good. Okay now are there any other topics that we'd say oh that should be in a bag in a troubleshooting second how about logs reading logs and working with logs. There's something somewhere that I think it's weak but I think there's something somewhere. Yeah, that's an interesting suggestion. Okay. And then because what I'm thinking on the for the index dot a dot page for this section. It would be nice if that had an introduction so you know that something you I don't know how, how literary we want to be but troubleshooting is an art. And that's one of the things. And what we're the section it's called diagnosing errors. I might make that be common errors, or something that's not what I know it's an error it's, we could, well we could certainly certainly create. Yeah, we can, we could rename this page if that would help. But if it not even if it didn't at the beginning you said, you know, you can look at your, you know, look at your logs and they may give you a hint and if you look at your logs frequently enough. You'll see when something is there that isn't usually there and that may be your hint. And then you may need a thread dump and why, you know, a word or two about why a thread dump is useful. And then whatever we call that section say, these are some things that frequently happen and this is you might look through this to see if you find your symptoms and, you know, these things happen and some of them they I think we tell them how to fix them or how to diagnose them. So I like having this in all the little pieces for maintainability. But troubleshooting is such a, you know, it's a difficult subject because every trouble is different. So I'd like something that leads me into it says how are we going to, and we're not going to solve everybody's problems with this section at least not now. Right. So but tell them something that gets them started. Good. Now where is the log stuff shoot. It's in system administration. Oh, you found it. Okay. Yeah, it's right. Logs. Yeah. Okay, so that just tells me how I view. Yeah, I think that definitely in fact I'd make that the first I would you agree mark I mean yeah. No, no objections. No objections for me. I'm prone to say, let's merge her change exactly as she did it. And then we can bring viewing logs as a as a separate change because I think, I think this, this is a, it's already a good start. And, and then, yeah, viewing logs feels like a very reasonable one. Troubleshooting are there other are there anything here. That's not really troubleshooting. The system information is really on the, the, on the, on the Jenkins UI so that should not move that makes perfect sense staying and it's not troubleshooting. Right. But that's another thing with troubleshooting is we might end up with links to other docs that we leave where there are. Right. Some of these other subjects there might be a trouble there might be troubleshooting information in them that we wanted to stay where it is but we might add that so you go like, Daniel was saying for security that he wants one place that he can go to and see everything that's out there. Right. And it makes me some links to stuff etc but it's it's right here if he's if he's looking at the whole world of what we're saying of security it's all here and I think for troubleshooting yeah. And I think I think that makes sense right there. There are themes that are so compelling securing Jenkins. I think those those fit as, as really, they should be their own section. Okay, good. Alright, well so then given that now I haven't reviewed the text but I think the text she created the only text that was brand new of what she created was actually the little bit of a section intro that looked fine to me so I'm prone to say, let's migrate let's merge it. We could, we could, or we could. I'm finding the most of stuff could use a good at it but there's also well and and if you want to do an edit that's we can certainly do that as well. Interesting. We could pull it up and just read through it maybe do we have time do we need. Well, let's, let's check with your eyes to your eyes anything that that is pressing for you that we should be doing. Nothing important just one topic. I got a mention from. I don't know how to pronounce his name. So he tagged you and me on the viewing the changelog preview. If you go to your GitHub you'll be able to see it as well. So I wanted to discuss more on that, like what it means. So viewing the changelog preview. Okay, so is this a poll, this was part of the poll request on. Oh, on this. Oh, very nice. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. Okay so what was your question. Yeah, I just got an email from a friend and worked on the previous site site and he is making it possible for us to make the changelog also viewable on that deployed site. Is that what he means. Exactly. Yeah, so so if we, if we if we show the problem. Here's the problem. Oh, here and here's one I need to merge. He's, he's approved it. I'm just gonna merge this. Okay. Well, we're here. Alright, so back to the problem is let's look at the changelog for the next release. So here's the changelog for the next release and here is the environment. And if I view the deployment the next release would be 2.339. When I click download it takes me to 2.338. And with the changelog. It never mentions 2.339. So the reality is the preview doesn't show me I have to do a lot more work to read the preview of the changelog so I'm delighted that he found a way to make this work. Now what I didn't check I guess we should check let's look at this one and see if it does show it. Yeah, why not. Right. I mean, it, if we're lucky. We'll look at download. Right. And it shows 3.38 here. Okay, so I'm not, I'm not, I'm so maybe I don't understand what he's doing. Let's see what he's doing. Okay, so he says, Partials release header what's new in release header HTML animal. Okay, what did he change h3. Do you see what he changed your I'm not clear what actually was modified. Release release version what's new in what if release dot if release dot date release dot banner. Okay, so I think that's a no op. He moved that into a different location. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, change log dash preview so I have to go to a different URL. Let's go to preview change log. Okay, so so is the two dot 339 change log empty. Okay, now. Oh, oh, it is empty on his branch. Okay, so how do we, how do we ever test this. I mean it looks like he's provided a page. And so it will make it possible for us to navigate to it. I don't know how how you will have a someone who's not one of us experts weekly releases change log astra leases. Hmm. Okay, so, so the change log is here but if I go to change log dash preview, at least the page he's created exists. Yes. So, in my world, let's see so now the question is, is it okay that this is being deployed to the public site. Yeah, maybe it is actually maybe. So what this will do is this creates on Jenkins that I owe this same exact thing change log preview this is not specific to see I this is going to be giving people a preview of what the next change log would contain. I actually think that's kind of a cool feature. I'm not sure I'm ready to promote it yet. But I think it's it's sort of an interesting feature. But it's not for users right it's for only for reviewers. Well, it but but I guess my point here is that it absolutely can be for users if they want it. So if they say what's coming next week. What's what's in the next one. This will show it to them. Now we won't we may have no hyperlinks to this page we may have no, no, nothing that leads them to it. However, if we were to find it helpful, it will actually be available on Jenkins.io on the official site, not just on preview pages. You know, I don't object to links because what I'm thinking is, if you're not fairly sophisticated you shouldn't be going near a weekly release. That's a terrible thing to say we expect we could releases to be production quality but okay right now not LTS. No, I'm, no, I'm not talking about quality at all. I'm just talking about what they are supposed to be. Oh, okay. They are. I mean, they're supposed to be as good as we can make them, but but part of that process is having to be screwed up sometimes so that we find the problems before they deploy into. If, if I ever found anybody who would produce had deployed a weekly release into a production environment, I have no sympathy for them about anything that could happen. Oh, Daniel would, Daniel would object to that but I think I think let me release would be an exception would be an exception, but a regular a non security release. So I'm going to I'm going to offer a little different perspective that probably has the same actual ultimate outcome. What chooses to use a weekly release is also choosing to upgrade every week. And if you are not upgrading every week you are for some period, until you next upgrade to a weekly you are running unsupported because the community does not take care of anything other than the most recent recent weekly release. So, so for me, the choice, the choice weekly or LTS is driven mostly by how often do you want to upgrade. And if you're not willing to upgrade every week, your only other choice is upgrade upgrade monthly. Right. I mean, I like being on the cutting edge, right. And there will be exceptions, but most of the time, it should not be a production environment and certainly not a production environment for a large sensitive organization. Right. And that I agree with it's, it's going to be more likely to be broken than LTS is absolutely. I run one of these large organizations, and there are features coming that I'm very anxious for, I might be putting this on to a test system and really beating on it, while it's a weekly release. That would be good but again, that's not for your grandmother, you know that's something that your grandmother doesn't do that somebody who's pretty sophisticated knows what they're doing. And they know that what they're running has a high probability of failing that's why they're doing it. Right. Excellent. So Diraj any any concerns from you that would stop us from merging this. Nothing I think it looks great. Can be featured as you said, on the main change log page at the top saying what's next. And that would redirect us redirect them to this page that he has created. We have that option. It's not it's not implemented that way yet but that is an option for us. And it's certainly nice that it's already available for us to use in our reviews so so we can look at the change log in context. Great. One more thought go back to the set to the page the sample page though with content free. Okay this one. Yeah, I'm wondering. People should know what a weekly release is, but I could accidentally trip onto this and not really I wonder if that should have a little warning that this is for unreleased unsupported, or this is beta software or something like that. Well, so it says this is a preview change log for upcoming releases. Right. Now maybe for an upcoming release, because it's not really a change log for multiple releases it's this is the change lining for for the next release. It's it's not plural. I mean plural I think is a misstatement. It's not a crucial misstatement but I think it's a misstatement right. And maybe maybe this should be a link to both weekly and LTS. I would, there should be one you know, and I would, I don't know, I would love to see something here that includes the phrase not for production. And I am not willing to put that phrase because I disagree wholeheartedly. I would take heat from Daniel. And for a security release that would not necessarily be right that it's just, we don't want it we don't want to make pejorative comments towards the the weeklies. They are they are not as heavily vetted as LTS, but yeah, Daniel I like Daniels and Oleg gave me the same feedback he said but don't don't you dare be saying bad things about weekly we intend for it to be good. Oh yeah. Well the question is my what I'm saying I think is good so that's the difference. Okay. So, so, shall we shall we offer a suggestion a couple of suggestions then on the pull request. Yeah, just, I mean just a little bit. I'm, you know, something to make sure that people understand you know the difference between what you see here and what you see for LTS. Right. Okay so let's, let's offer this one. I'm going to insert some additional text and the see that now wait a second what's that okay. I'll remember this is Ruby, and it's do using. Don't get me started on languages that use indentation to indicate programmatic and then don't you dare complain to me about Python. I love Python. I don't want to hear any more complaints about it's using white space for indentation for syntactic structure. Okay. So, this is a preview change like for upcoming releases for publicly available releases see the weekly release change log. Now we need to put the word and in the correct location. And see the, okay I think we want it like this the word the should not be included in the hyperlink right right. Do we want a really long sentence or do we want separate sentences maybe even. Oh, okay tell me how you mean there so. Let's go back to the preview change long for the upcoming release. Oh, right. Okay, start there. Yes, and that is correct you're right absolutely. And publicly available releases see the. Right change long and then period and save for long releases. Okay, all right, very good I see what you're saying yes for publicly available weekly releases. See the weekly release change lock. And now if we take the same text for publicly available long term support with long term support releases. Is there a comma after this in this phrase, is that correct. Okay, so for public available long term support releases see the long term support change log with this. We want a period at the end of sentence there we go good boy. Yeah, right so I think we got it and I think I got the indentation correct. This is a preview change log for the upcoming release for publicly available weekly weekly releases. Oh, do we really need the word coming. Do we really need the word. Do we really need. Oh, for the upcoming it is yes that's correct weekly, you're right. So this will this I don't see us using this for LTS. I guess, oh if we do it would have to be a different URL, it would be right change log dash stable dash preview or something. Okay, so for public before we don't need to say publicly available it's just a weekly release. Right. Except wait a second. No, but this is for the weekly release. It's for the upcoming weekly release right for the upcoming weekly release. So that's but it's just saying for weekly releases that are already published or that's awkward. Okay, for published weekly releases. Okay, published. I'm not like a man I don't know. Okay, like that. Long term support doesn't because long term support is long term support. I'm talking about two different types of weekly. I see your point is by using the modifier here, the upcoming there and using published here we make it clear. Right, make sense. Okay. Good. All right. This is a preview change log for the upcoming weekly release for public order that we could say for the current weekly release. Except the change like really covers all covers many weekly releases. Okay. Publish works then. Okay, nobody reads this stuff that carefully anyhow. Right you should quit obsessing about this. Fair enough. Okay, so. Now I don't I and I have not so so discussed. Minor phrasing change. Is our suggestion to link to weekly and to LTS change logs. To help people who might get to the site accidentally or something. See the site. We'll know that the other links are for the releases. Okay. All right now was there something else that we wanted to touch in this. I think that's pretty good. Okay. And I don't claim to know. Yeah, I, I don't read Ruby real well and so I don't know what that's doing. Yeah. Well, and this is. Who's done this. From, I think Croatia or from the Czech Republic. Is that the name you couldn't pronounce. Yes. Well, just, just so we're clear, that is my feeble attempt to pronounce it, but I've asked him how to pronounce it. Okay. So what you're hearing me say is a rough approximation of what he said. So the Z is actually sounded. And so, yeah. Nice. Okay. So I, yeah, I think, I think we still approve it. And the optional. Yeah. I think that's a good one. Yeah. I think that's a good one. Yeah. I think that's a good one. Phrasing change. Approved. Whether you accept the phrasing change or not. Yes. Great. Okay. And then that'll give him time tomorrow and I'll plan to merge this tomorrow. Start of my working day. Okay. Great. Do we give him something to tell him we really like it. Oh, you want to say this looks great. Okay. Yes. Yeah. And absolutely thrilled with this. I had not seen this pull request yet. Yes. Even I saw it right now. So very helpful that he has done this. Very considerate, right? Very, very. Yeah, that's, that's a great help. Okay. So well, so, hey, since we're in the mode of, I think we were okay with, was there something stopping us from. Oh, yeah. Are any objections. Meg, back to our troubleshooting Jenkins. Was there something that we want to read? I want to read. You're going to read the text for the, for the diagnosing errors, the page that was moved. Let's just. Yeah, that's great. Well, we've got something about choking on, you know, that first one is your sister's choking. And I already got busted for calling something brittle, which I still think is a perfectly reasonable term. Okay. Okay. I'm just joking. I'm bliss willing to stand up for. Okay. So. Is this text big enough for you to read it? Yes. All right. Okay. I don't know how much do we. Yeah, I don't, I mean. If you're Jenkins started show. If you're Jenkins started choking without of memory error, there are four possibilities. I don't know what the, if I don't like started. I don't. Yeah. So, so. How would you like to phrase it? Out of memory errors. Because. Are. Out of, I was going to say occur regularly, but that's got a problem. Okay. Out of memory errors. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. That may happen for, yeah. One of four. Yeah. Okay. I can, and I can give the exact number. My problem there is then I have the challenge that I'm never sure if it doesn't match. So right now they. Another one I take one away. Could say multiple. Since several is supposed to. Or for different. How about many different reasons. Right. Is that good enough. That works. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So that gets rid of the choking. I like that. Get rid of it. Get rid of a lot of stuff. Okay. Okay. You just want to. So the first one is saying. Growing data size. Right. Without saying you're leaking memory. Okay. Now head room is not. A common phrase, I think, is it? No. It doesn't sound right. Jenkins is leaking memory in case we need to fix that and adding more memory actually doesn't fix memory leaks. It just rides them. So. Okay. So there are opportunities to improve this. You want to. We've got about five minutes. Okay. I can always go back and edit it later, right? Okay. Well, so I'm going to. I'm certainly going to, we can, we can take this suggestion and commit it. Yeah. I'm sure Zenab will not object. So. I'm going to say approve. And then what we're going to do is we're going to. Market for automated merge. Commit the suggestion. You have a diabolical gleam in your eye all of a sudden. I'm trying to find my. Did I, did I drop the screen share? Yes. Sorry, I was trying to find the mute button. I was trying to not deafen you. With my cough. It's not a terrible cough. But now you are. I dropped the screen share. So. Here we go. So I'm going to enable auto merge. You need a drink. I do, but I'm only. Two minutes away from ending the session. So I have enabled auto merge. And it will merge. As soon as our suggestion has been evaluated in CI and past. Okay. Go back to your minutes. Do you want to note that we'd like to see index. A doc to have an introduction. To this. Okay. Which one was that? Okay. I'm just going to put it in the minutes from the meeting. Okay. Want to add. More. Oh, so yeah, I can share my screen again. Just a minute. Share screen. Okay. Want to add. More content. To the index. To the top level troubleshooting page. And more entries for. The notes from Gavin Morgan. Is that a fair way to say it? Yes. Great. All right. No more content. Or I'd say introductory material or something. Yes. Okay. Make it clear what we're talking about. Good. All right. Okay. And let's leave you time to get water before G suck. Actually no G suck, but I'm. It's been a very long day. So I'm ready to end. Okay. Okay. Okay. Oh, I do need to tell both of you. No docs office hours next week. I'm taking the week off. I hope you find some of your progeny who'd like to see you. If not, maybe you could break, you know, excellent experienced grandparents looking for grandchildren to visit for the week. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, but Maggie's giving me a little bit of a hard time here. We've had some adventures planning our time next week where we want to go see our grandchildren because. Well, some of them live too far away. Others of them got sick recently and just got COVID-19. Yeah, they're fine. You know, they're going to be great. But, but it's just a, you know, it's been an adventure trying to find out where the grandparents going to go to see their grandchildren. The answer right now is they're not going anywhere. And over the weekend, you can watch, I mean, you know, the March storms don't come out of nowhere. Maybe that's a matter of the question. Yeah. There's getting a really nasty storm this weekend in the Northeast. So it might be the next week is calm. Yeah, or, or next week's a total train wreck. Yeah. That's, but that's okay. Thank you to both of you. Thank you very much. Dear Oz for being here. Thanks, Mike, for being here. Thank you. Thank you for hosting us. Have a wonderful trip. Yep. Talk to you in two weeks. All right. Best of calling. Bye. Bye bye.