伊沢によりご講演をいただきましたでは続きましてオードリータン 台湾デジタル担当大臣にデジタルソーシャルイノベーションと大した講演を行っていただきますオードリータン大臣 台北からオンラインでご視聴をいただきますではオードリータン大臣 よろしくお願いいたしますミニシット10if you please start your sessioni will share some slides by look forward more to the panel discussionso i will skip over most of the slides actually that i have put thatdo you see the slides of digital social innovationyes you do okay excellentso yeah i'm time with digital minister in charge of social innovationbut when i say in charge it doesn't mean that i'm working for the governmentin charge of something i'm working just with the governmentthat is to say with the people not for the peopleand with the government not for the governmenti'm somewhere at this lagrange point between the movements on one sideand the governments on the other sideand to facilitate fast, fair and funthe three pillars of digital social innovationso i'll just use some exampleslike in Taiwan we have this form of collective intelligence called the PTCthe PTC is unique in that it doesn't have any advertisers or shareholdersit's squarely in the social sectormaintain for 25 yearsand running by the national Taiwan University studentsand that's where exactly in December 31st in 2019that Dr. Lee will announce a message from Wuhanthat said there's seven news source cases in the Huanan city food marketget triaged onlinelike with a lot of upvotes and so onwe very quickly focus on itand start health inspections for all five passengers coming in from Wuhanand that means that unlike other more anti-social social mediathis is an actual pro-social social mediagoverned in an open source mannerand that can actually tackle emerging social issuesand so we strive to allocate funding from the governmentsand we classify them as digital public infrastructuresthat enable this kind of social listeningso that we do not have to rely on the more anti-social corners of social mediafor this sort of pro-social conversationanother example is the daily live press conferencefrom the Central Epidemic Monsonsthe commander Chen Shizhong basically responds tonot just journalists but any people who call into thistoe-free landline number one night two twowith any question was everand anything that call center cannot handlein our daily 2pm press conferencethe minister himself handles itfor example last April there was a young boy that called one night two to sayhey you're rationing our mask which is greatbut I got the pink ones which is not greatall the boys in my class have navy blue maskand I don't want to wear pink to schoolso the very next day everyone at the auto health officewere pinkand I think minister Chen even said that pink pantherwas his childhood hero or somethingso the boy became the most hip boy in the classwhere only he has the color that the heroeswear and the hero's hero I guess wearand this is this idea a very aged out 24 hourliterally response cyclethat can actually navigate a very fast speedbut with actually a lower risk profileis actually lower riskand unlike if we say you knowbullying is better or somethingthat would actually cause more frictions in this hairballbut simply by wearing pinkthis is the act of gender mainstreamingthat is basically fair for everyonenow talking about mask rationingmany of you in Japan may have heardthat last year we're rationing maskbut there was a real shortageand so people don't want to go to the pharmacythat has already out of stockso not theguff tech peoplethe civic tech peoplegov zero g0v.twwhich for every governmentdigital service ends ingov.tw they don't likethey just change it o to a zeroand you go to a shadow governmentthat is more likeable I guessthegov zero peopleprototyped this mask rationingwhere you can actually kill in lineand see people before you swipingoutwe-yhe didandandwasit wasamong thegomesomeoneandg0v.twit wasamong theg0v.twこの時代のデータを探していますが、ヌーローの場所で人たちが5kmの飛行機に到達しているのではないかと思います。それは実際に違います。これがデータの場所です。でもデータの場所は、毎日、私たちのアグラムを変更することができます。私たちのアグラムを変更することができます。そのため、私たちのオープンスティーブマップコミュニティフィーバックを変更することができます。では、引き続きまして、パネルディスカッションを行わせていただきます。本パネルのモデルエーターは伊藤上一が務めさせていただきます。そして、パネルリストの皆様です。ただいまご講演をいただきました、ケイトマッコール・カーリーさん、オードリー・タンさん、そして、京王技術大学教授、村井淳さん、以上の皆様方にご出演をいただきます。それでは、ここからは、伊藤さん、再びよろしくお願いいたします。最初の質問、村井先生にしたいんですけど、ちょっと待って、これ、何語?ハネルギーです。I think it's supposed to be in Japanese,but we can do it in English, but I think…どっちだっけね? English, okay, we can do it in English.Okay.So Jun, I know you know Audrey's work quite well,and I'm always very inspired by this fast, fair and fun.And as somebody who's worked in the Japanese governmentand academia for many years,I haven't seen so much fast, fair and fun as a theme,but do you think it works?And do you think…is that something that you were thinking about?I know you mentioned…Yeah, I think, you know,I've been talking with Audrey many times,and then, you know, so,I think a lot of things I'm kind of learningfrom the Audrey's operation,the other, you know, kind of strategic process,including the, you know, kind of FFF.And then probably one of the most difficult part,if, you know, kind of I kind of copied the policyinto the Japanese demonstration,then the last word, fun.You know, so it's very much, you know,kind of a…it has been difficult.I talked in the previous discussionthat for 20 years this is kind of pushed by the private sectorsand the government sectors didn't really,you know, kind of employing the digital technologyfor the digital services.Therefore, the digital services has been,you know, a little bit immature in the country.And so, but I think it's because of the,you know, the very system that the government employeeand the mission of them and the other things.So, I learned from Audrey many times,it's the kind of people,the kind of private sectors people around her,and then doing the operation.And with the kind of very much innovative ideascollected from the kind of expert peoplein the commercial field.So, that's what I heard from Audrey.And then, therefore, it's a great impact.And also, you know, with the fund.And so, I was watching her happilyintroducing her,you know,what she did.So, that's probably what we need to work.Yeah.I mean, Japanese do have some comedians in the government,but they don't usually get enlistedto be comedians so much, right?Yeah.The mission in the Japanese governmentis that, you know, not to fail.You know, so, you know,understanding the risk and not to failthe startup but not conclude.You know, so that's basically the very simple wayof phrasing their work.So, yeah, I hope this will change.You know, this need to be changedbecause of the COVID-19 situationbecause all the people in this countrynoticed that, you know,this is not the way we should be.I mean, the government should beand the government service should betype of thing.I think we're going to get, you know,kind of great support and understandingcomparing with the past.But I find that Japanese can sometimesbe more fun than the Americans.I think Americans are sometimeseven more formal.But I don't know if you think aboutwhat you think and whether some of the stuffthat Audrey talked about, like memes,is anything the government in the U.S.would ever consider or have done.That'sThe grass is always greener.Looking at the United States,looking at the Taiwan,they are doing very well.And then we are now.That's basically probably the mutually.You know, we feel like that in a sense.Kate, you know, some of the thingsthat you talked about,you said you were a member of thepresidential innovations fellows.I think that that, you know,we talked about this a little bit in theearlier panel about how you bringprivate sector people in.And how they contribute andparticipate how they're incentivized.But I don't know if you can talka little bit about maybe how thatworks and what doesn't work.Because I think it's really one of thethings that we're trying to figure out,the culture also of private sector .It's been a really interestingevolution,I think.Even from the very,it's basically the start of it,as I understand it,was a six month time frame.And it was a very small amount of peoplerelatively.And then,you know,you kind of watched them go on tolike five of them started 18F.And you can see theentrepreneurial spirit just coming out of it.There was even in kind of my class,which is class three or four by that point,I did feel like I was just in this.I had some recognition that I was inbubble within a bubble,within a bubble of the actual system.And then kind of moving in and doing and starting something myself in an agency in a bedding.I got kind of the full how long is this,like the full kind of entrenched how long is this.And then,the creator of bubbles for other people.And you realize kind of the systematic,you know,hopefully I'm doing my part to kind of enable others in that way.I will say,you know,I think Jen was right.We haven't really seen a resistance to joining,but we also had a bunch of corporations.If I understand it right,there was a host of corporations and organizations that would give people civic leaves to go do it.And then,the host of other places,you didn't have to kind of completely leave your job.You could take a civic leave to do your kind of tour of duty for your one or two years or however long it was.And I think this was a major enabler for people to join the program.But we have seen,I think we've also seen maybe more people stay than originally anticipated,which was an interesting finding,I think,where you get in and you start this work and you start to realize,like for me,person,I can just say that I got in,I started this work.I felt like I had a lot of kind of impact in a shallow way,if that sounds weird.Like I was able to get stuff out the door and produce these,what I saw was like really fun and great projects and high impact.But I was kind of realizing the extent to which I wanted to keep working on these problems that were more intractable,that were kind of a little bit stickier,that were going to involve more than just launch.And it got to be something where I was more incentivized to stay and see what I could do,knowing that that hill was going to be a lot harder to climb.But yeah,I certainly think it was an interesting,you could argue it was kind of fueling the start of the digital movement as we saw it in some way.Yeah.Okay.I need to raise a question to both of you actually,starting with Kate,that you have noticed that Japan digital agency is going to be kind of first agency,government agency is officially committed to work.Both are kind of private experts together with the government and so at least the ratio you know,very,very new in terms of more commercial business people,I mean business experts to be involved.So,what is the most,I mean do you feel difficult,I mean do you identify the difficult parts or do you fixing the difficult part that creating the harmony between the private experts and the government employees working together for the same same mission type of thing?Yes.I think this is one of the hardest challenges and I think that there's multiple theories on how this plays out.I think this kind of gets to some of the tensions which I was mentioning where this tension will kind of always exist and then it's a matter of picking where like when that move where you really challenge the air ball and you challenge the system and can you get folks who are you know,maybe you've been living in it. I mean,the most ideal scenario as someone coming in with my perspective was to get was to partner with someone who had been doing it for very long time hopefully get them to see some kind of new way of doing it and then have them say we should do this differently,right?and not be kind of forced by me and some,but the time again I think you have to play on the time frames and I think was that that typically takes a suite of things so even in the organizations that we see like US Digital Service for example I think is like very fast moving can kind of go into a situation can respond very quickly and the organization is set up to do that.18S for example is much larger and much more consultative based and they tend to kind of partner in a way that's longer term management of an organization and so I think having the idea that you'll need all those things and it will take multiple organizations and approaches in order to actually harmonize it it's much more like an orchestra I think you'll have many instruments and many players and many people doing kind of different types of things that the question will be can you kind of come up with a suite that will allow to be complimentary in some way also I wouldn't discount external orgs like non-profits and civic actorsI mentioned the social sector which is my preferred term for the non-profit because therefore purpose sometime also with profit so nowadays social entrepreneurship is really a thing in Taiwan so most of them actually have some revenue stream is just that they commit to reinvest 100%to you know the purpose that they're leading and really that is the backbone of not just of zero but most of the innovations that are outlined as I mentioned we didn't invent this so my team the public digital innovation space is not strictly spec speaking goth tech our co-creators our initial hires are from IDEOfrom the Kobaharan Institute for Interaction Design server service design and so on so basically there are space designers participation designers and the actual tech happens in the civic space and we use open source tools we use creative commons for our conversation and things like that so we do not see ourselves as problem solvers but rather someone who pairs the problem solvers in the civic space in the social sector with the people who are very much the expert in articulating this problem but not necessarily solving that so my office is half career public service and half civil society expertsand both of you mentioned sort of design like things and I know we talked about product earlier with Jennifer but it seems like there is a I think that when you look at infrastructure it looks very much like IT but as it gets closer to the actual service and the customer it looks a lot more like design that design rather than just visual as design but system design design thinking has become a really important part and that starts to panic across all kinds of government services but you all we always use the word digital but how much is it about design and where do you see the designer fitting into all of this stuff I don't know if either of you have and Kate you're a designer originally rightI amI had a design background which is very interesting and honestly I think one of the best experiences about PIP you were kind of paired in a way with people who were coming from totally different backgrounds so I was you would have equal parts design front end, back end service designers kind of like people who are really expert at participatory design in lots of ways all the way to you know my first PIP project was kind of like with a very hard-core data scientist and it took me a while just to even translate what language he was speaking I could it was one of the coolest experiences and then I kind of fell in love with data science about it so I do think that you know service design is like a critical component I'm obviously biased but I think that's when it boils down to that really good service design you can tellyou knowone thing about the kind of service design type of a discussion then the digital when the digital service design then it should apply the other you know past silos and beyond the silos and then providing the digital services in a kind of horizontal way right and that's a vertical versus horizontal way and then it's been you know very difficult to convince common design philosophy to all of the different silos right so what do you think about the design I'm being a designer and then that kind of a silo versus horizontal common platform type of thingA lot of it I think is in the language that we use in memory in Taiwan when somebody learns like javascript or pythonthey're not software engineers they would say they're程式設計 program design or designers of mechanisms so just by building this not only we get much better gender equality in the enrollment of students but actually we get a much more well-known connecting people to people view point of learning to program rather than just this connecting machine to machine which is being automated anyway by open AI codex and friends nowadays like literally every day so by focusing on the people to people what we're doing is not challenging the silos but using a Buckminster Fuller quoteinventing new systems that will slowly render the old ones obsolete that is to say by connecting people in a much more pro-social way people would then prefer to take their knowledge their wisdom from their silos to this new hub where they can connect betterand architecture is a very related word and I know Jun is very much an architect and I think it feels like the lower layer people like to use the word architecture and the higher level people often use the word design but it's the idea people also kind of mix those together but I think Jun to your point about the horizontal I think that one key thing that I think we haven't done very well is come up with very strong common architecture that's robust and I think that's partially it's the role of academia as well to help manage that conversation.I think it's interesting to distinguish the architecture and the design both are design I understand but when the design process then it's looking at more toward the people and the users rather than the kind of system itself so but anyways that's very important discussion.And I guess I would just add the one thing that's been kind of helpful for us in kind of breaking down relative silos and everyone like on the worker.gov project for example that was kind of like seven agencies and sub agencies that owned some portion of the content for where workers should get access to their rights and really the only way we were kind of really able to execute on that project which was like bring everybody together and create kind of like a unified experience was to just relay relay the public voice to like have real quotes have real stories have these people who are trying to find their rights and they can't do it and then just relay that and say they're good designers they're almost telling us it's not so hard they're almost telling us this is the step and then this is just your part in the service as like one person in a larger idea of what's going to make it a unified experience for them and mostly people get on board with that other thing.So we have like a minute and a half anyone wants to make final comments or advice for us as we embark in the digital agency here in Japan.I can read my job description if that helps.That would be great.My job description which is a really a poem that I wrote five years ago basically transitions from IT based thinking to also incorporate design based thinking it goes like this.When we see the internet of things Internet of beings when we see virtual reality let's make it a shared reality when we see machine learning let's make it collaborative learning when we see user experience let's make it about human experience and whenever we hear that the singularity is near that is always remember the plurality is right here.That's very good.So I think that's a great way to end this panel.Thank you everyone very much for your participation.Thank you.Thank you.We thank all the speakers for the session.Panelists ありがとうございました