 Well, welcome to our webinar. My name is Linda Kallum. I'm the organizer for the webinar series. I am very happy to announce our speaker today. It's Christopher Erdman, who is an author, developer, and experimenter in the areas of digital libraries, visual networking, library UX, interactive technologies, bibliometrics, and data services in libraries. He is currently the chief strategist for research collaboration at the NCSC libraries and has previously worked for organizations such as Harvard Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics, the European Southern Observatory, the Supreme Court of the United States, the United Nations University of Washington, and CNET, and the Smithsonian. And he holds the MLIS from the University of Washington's High School and a BA from the University of California, Davis. So hi everyone. Thank you for the introduction, Linda. I just joined at the NCSC libraries as the chief strategist for research collaboration. Formerly Astronomy Librarian, I started my work at the European Southern Observatory and just wanted to thank one of the people I worked with there, Uta Grokoff, who really was a mentor to me. I think it was important to mention in this series the accidental librarian that it's helpful to have mentors to help you along the way and learn all the things you need to learn in the domains that you cover. So I'm thankful to her. And I also wanted to encourage you to check out the European Southern Observatory just today. I was looking at all the videos that they have of all the work that they're doing. And so they're based in Germany and in Munich. And their telescopes are mostly in the desert in Chile, but they also have some telescopes in the Canary Islands. And a lot of telescopes are actually located in Chile. The second place that I was lucky to work at was the Center for Astrophysics. As mentioned before, the Harvard Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics. And this is a picture. It looks like a transformer, but it's of the giant Magellan telescope, which is hopefully going to be built very soon. These big projects in astronomy take a very long time to develop. But this is one of the new observatories that's going to allow us to peer farther into the universe. So I also wanted to mention Alberto Akamatsu, who is actually the program manager for the NASA Astrophysics Data Systems. And he's also been, in some ways, a mentor, a spirit guide. I always fell back on him for information on all the things I needed to learn in astronomy. So I'm grateful to Alberto Akamatsu as well. So I wanted to start off with, there was someone I used to work with as well at the Astrophysics Data Systems named Mike Kurtz. And he's the senior astronomer that works for the Astrophysics Data Systems. And he used to have this saying that let the literature be the filter for the data. And I always thought that was a great line because it really, as I worked more and more in the domain, it really became like a mantra. And so I thought that was a great place to start for this session is to show you the NASA Astrophysics Data Systems, which can be seen as a literature system, but it really does much more than that, links to the data and astronomy. And so I guess one way to describe it is you could call it the PubMed of astronomy. If you're familiar with PubMed. But it really is the database where all these astronomers really in the world go to do their literature searches. And so just I wanted to try to see if I could do a live demo actually because I think it's just more rich. So if you try to search for NASA ADS in Google, you come upon this search and you probably come upon this interface, which doesn't look so advanced. But the thing is that it really is an advanced system. This is an old interface that they're moving on from. They're trying to implement a new system that the astronomy community will use, but a lot of astronomers are very reluctant to use the new system. But if you went back and went to Google and you looked down the page a little bit more, you'd come across the NASA ADS search, the beta interface. And this is the one I really want to show in this live demo. And here's the new system just to give you a first glimpse. One thing to mention is that the ADS, the astrophysics data systems, operates under a NASA grant. And so they think about, I believe, once I heard between one and $2 million a year, but I could be wrong by that. But they do amazing things for the amount of money that they get from NASA. Comparable system was Eric, the educational system. I know also receives a certain sum of money. I can't remember exactly, but maybe it was along the lines of $8 to $10 million a year. But I could be wrong on these numbers, but I just wanted to emphasize that with sort of a minimal amount of money that the astrophysics data systems is able to collect all this information from the literature and create this great tool for the astronomy community. So just to start, this first glimpse of the interface here, you can really do a lot. They made it very much like a Google-like interface. And so you can see they have some examples of things you can do. So if you know of an author that you can search by, here's an example, John Hookra. You can search by the first author. You can do all these other targeted searches. And I think the one that I really appreciate is the full-text search here down at the bottom. So you can actually search within many of the journals in astronomy into the actual text. And I think this is something I think a lot of domain still really wish for. Or one thing, one search where you could really search across everything and do it at that level. And it's been one of the more powerful things that I came across when I first joined astronomy when I came from the Supreme Court. I couldn't believe that there was this one source really that I could tap into to do all my work with. And I really leveraged that particular aspect. And I'll talk to you more about the full-text searching that I did in using the NASA ADS. The other thing I wanted to highlight, too, is that they have this area here, the citations, references. There's really this rich graph of information that the NASA ADS takes advantage of. So they can link you to all the citations and references. So you can sort of traverse the literature, discover all the related information to a particular paper that you're reading or a set of papers that you're reading. And I'd like to highlight one thing that was extremely valuable was this review section. So review papers tend to be very rich in information for early career researchers in astronomy. And for those of you who get questions from astronomers, this is something I really recommend. It allows you to do a search across all these articles and find some that can really help some of these early career researchers really get started and learn more about the field as a first step. And I guess the other things I'll point out, too, there's a lot of information here. You can go down below and you'll see this Learn More about searching the ADS. They have a help page that really walks you through all the different things that you can do. So I encourage you to look at that page. And then they also have an API. So if you are a developer, you can tap into the API and do some sort of automated programmatic ways of searching the corpus of information that they have available to them. So I wanted to do just a quick search just to jump you into the regular interface here. So you can see already that the full-text search is working automatically. So you can actually see the snippets of where actual planets is showing up in the system. And just want to kick back to something in my presentation. I wanted to describe something that you might be seeing already. There is something called a bib code in astronomy. And so the ADS, when it first started off, it started off in the early days, I think in the mid-90s or so, when the web was young. And to create these sort of unique identifiers for the papers that they were receiving, they created this bibliographic code, these abbreviations. And they're just the unique identifiers for the papers that they were receiving in their system. And part of that bib code involves journal abbreviations. And so I wanted to first show you that if you search on Google for bibliographic code abbreviations in astronomy, you'd find these lists of journals, all the journals that you need to know in astronomy, all conferences. And it really is a great guide if you're starting off in the domain of understanding all those abbreviations. That was extremely difficult for me to get my head around initially. All the abbreviations that were out there, I remember people saying, oh, you can find it in MNRIS. And I remember scratching my head and saying, what is that? And it means monthly notices of the Royal Astronomical Society. So this tool was really a great, helpful tool for understanding that. And just to move on to, here is sort of the example bib code at the bottom of the page. You see the 1992 app J, that's the astrophysical journal. And it has sort of the volume and issue numbers of the journal. And it has a page number and the author, the first letter of the last name of the first author. So you can see up above it has this abbreviation. But just going back to the search, you can see the bib code in action here. They list it out. And oftentimes astronomers will sort of share those bib codes with each other in sort of unique ways of sharing these papers. And it also gives you a quick glimpse into which journals it's coming from. So here I know that this is new astronomy. It's new A. But I can go back to that list of journals to figure out what does this abbreviation mean to get a better understanding of just what's going on here. And just to move down a little bit more here, I just wanted to explore the interface a little bit more. So one thing that you can see on the left side here is that you can navigate between the authors. And you can see what collections things are coming from. I think some of the more interesting things are these keywords that are being pulled from the journals themselves. When I was at the Center for Astrophysics, we were looking at helping with this in a more unified way. So we had a project called Unified Astronomy Thesaurus. And so that project is still underway. And hopefully at some point that will help with navigating this interface a little bit more. And you can navigate the publications so you can see, again, more of these abbreviations. So again, you can look those up. And you can see the bib groups. These are bibliographic groups. And I'll speak a little bit more about that later. And then you have all these object searches you can do. And it's not opening up right now, but you can do these searches from other services to really enter objects that you're looking at and navigate the system that way. So astronomical objects, vizier tables, or these are data tables from these publications that you can also search by. So you can search by optical and other particular aspects here. And then grants is another thing where you can search through the grants that are referenced in these papers. So that can be very helpful for grant review. Agencies and other things like that. And then you have finally publication types at the bottom here. So it's really advanced interface. You can also see that you can see the number of papers by year, the citations, the reads that these papers get, and sort of metrics that are produced by the system. One other thing I want to note here is that in some cases you can actually go to the article and see an image, a graphic from that article itself. And so it gives you an idea. You can sort of peer within the article before you even get there. And another great thing about the astrophysics data system is it links the preprint, the freely available article with the publisher article, with other articles that might be free as well. So you can see all the different links that you can navigate to. And it has the abstract information, all the things that you're probably familiar with, and some other things, metrics about the paper itself. So you can see how well that paper is doing and the references associated with that paper. A whole host of, like I mentioned before, the graph is pretty rich of all the data that the ADS links you to. So just to go back to my search, and I wanted to note one more thing. If any of you are familiar, it's something called ORCID. So this is an author identifier, and it helps you disambiguate authors. So, for instance, author names like John Smith are very difficult to track. The ORCID project is really taken off more so lately of helping with this author disambiguation. And one of the things the ADS does is tap into that project and allow authors to claim their papers. And so one thing I can do is start claiming some of these papers that belong to me. So I can log in with my Google account, and I can start seeing the papers that I've associated with ORCID. And so it's a nice feature, and I know that in certain countries like Italy or Portugal, they've started using this a great deal now because they're required to do this. And so I just wanted to share with you that nice feature. Maybe some of your members of your community want to use that, or maybe it's a great example for how you want to integrate ORCID into a system that you have locally. So let me go back to my presentation. So as I mentioned before, I worked for the European Southern Observatory and also worked for the Center for Astrophysics at Harvard. And at both of these locations, they have a number of facilities, like the European Southern Observatory had the very large telescope, BLT. They were working on a project called the Extremely Large Telescope, which is like the Giant Magellan Telescope. It's one of the bigger observatories that's set to be launched soon. And actually, the European Southern Observatory was working on the overwhelmingly large telescope. I'm not making this up, by the way. These are some of the sites, but in some of these sites, they even have instruments that are on the telescopes and then that astronomers are using. And I thought one thing to mention to everyone is this WAS, another acronym for the American Astronomical Society Facility Keywords. And it's just this great list of all the facilities that are out there. I'm sure there's some missing, but at least it always felt to me like one of the more comprehensive lists out there. And I thank the American Astronomical Society for keeping it. So it's a great reference if you're looking at all the facilities out there in astronomy. You can look at this and see what is out there and be overwhelmed because there are a great number of them. But just to back up a little bit and say when I was at the European Southern Observatory, I was sort of tasked with this job to look through the literature. One thing we were doing there before I landed was going through the journals and sort of physically just flipping through and reading to see where the mentions of the facilities were of the instruments. And I had a programming background and I decided, you know what, we can do this better. We can sift through the literature using the astrophysics data systems to really track all these mentions of these facilities. What you're seeing here is a screenshot of the workflow of sifting through the literature using the tools that we created. And at the time, this is about 10 years ago maybe. We used PHP, MySQL, just off the shelf, open tools to develop the system. And we tapped into the ADS, which was an open service to help with sifting through all that literature. So this allowed you to sort of triage, pick out all these mentions, the system which we call Telbib and the full text. I can't even remember what the acronym means, but Fuse, we called it Fuse. But it was the full text search tool that allowed you to capture all these mentions. And so it was like a librarian curation dashboard. And as you can see here, walking through the system, you can see that the librarian was able to sort of tag all these mentions in different ways. Often through the program IDs, program IDs ended up being the links to the data. And so on the next screen, I have a screenshot of that. So the ESO, Telescope Bibliography, the European Southern Observatory Telescope Bibliography, has these sort of links to the paper, links to the data through the program IDs. And the astronomers use this to go back and forth between the literature and the data. So at the end of the day, you would end up at this archive. And I'm not sure if any of you are pulling your hair out right now. But this is where an astronomer would land and would have to sort of peer through all this to grab the particular data sets associated with a program ID which was linked to a particular paper to get the raw data for that observation. One of the things is that I know in general that people often say that astronomy has got things worked out with linking to data, with open data and all these kind of things. And I think there's still a lot of work to be done in sort of this interlinking of literature and data sets. I wanted to mention here that oftentimes astronomers use a file standard called the FIT standard, flexible image transport system. And this was really developed a long time ago when the great observatories were starting out. Some of the names you know of like Hubble and Spitzer, these are some of the great observatories where some of the NASA scientists really felt like they needed a way to share their data. And I think one way is this is where astronomy is lucky because I go to big data conferences and often hear scientists saying, what standard are you using and trying to work with the different standards that are out there. And astronomy has been lucky that it has really won standard. I shared a screenshot of sample FIT files. I think the one interesting thing to mention here for librarians is that FIT files have this header which is text. And in some ways it resembles maybe a mark data format of metadata. So at the header of each of these files is metadata about the particular observation that the instrument that was used and all the calibration and other things that an astronomer might find useful. But it's not perfect these days. But I wanted to also tell you that it's not just astronomers that are using FITs, interesting enough, the Vatican library. The Vatican uses FITs to help with preserving the material that's in their collections. I think the reason why for this connection exists is that there is a Vatican observatory. And I believe the monks at the Vatican observatory were working with FITs and probably worked with the library, the archives, and telling them about the FIT standard and its benefits. But this is just sort of a recent announcement about how they're using FITs in the Vatican as well. And just to go back to FITs, a good place to maybe read about this if you're so inclined is the Astronomy and Computing Journal. I know when I was leaving the Center for Astrophysics and joining NCSU libraries, there was some debate in the community about whether FITs was the right standard. And there was sort of a back and forth debate about this. And so some domains like radio astronomy don't necessarily want to use FITs. And so there were, I remember an article called FITs in the Crosshairs, and I was trying to find it before this talk. But there's some debate in the community now about this. But I think, again, going back to how lucky astronomy is for having essentially one standard to work with. And I also wanted to highlight, I mentioned before that you sort of got a glimpse of how you could traverse into the data from the ADS. And I like this Twitter, I call it an epic Twitter rant from Brian Keegan, who I don't believe he's an astronomer actually. And he was excited about the recent exoplanet discoveries and thought, okay, you know, are the people that did this doing things like other projects in science where they share their work in a notebook. These Jupiter notebooks that are becoming more popular for sharing code and data and allowing people to sort of play with the science that's going on. And so he was hoping for this, and he decided he couldn't find a notebook. And so he started traversing the system and just started ranting about all the things that were wrong of trying to find this data. And I highly recommend looking at this because it really gives you a glimpse of how difficult it is still to traverse all these things and to work with astronomy data. I also wanted to mention a project that I think does a really good job of connecting the dots here with the public in case of Brian Keegan, the universe projects which came out of astronomy as a way to sort of catalog all the images that they had. The universe project started with Chris Lintot. And now it's really blossomed into something else, something bigger, where you can use it for doing other projects in science. So if you see on a page, there's something called Snow Spotter even. And then the other projects like Discover Wildlife. So the universe project allows scientists to grab a set, to collect a set of data that they're hoping for more insights and to make it available to the public to do sort of this additional work on. And so I hope that more of these projects are coming online these days. And I think in the case with Brian Keegan, Planet Hunter is another one where it could have helped maybe making these connections. So if any of you are thinking about citizen science projects and the universe projects, it's a great place to start. So I want to go back to the ADS and go back to saying why, I think at the end of the day, why we were doing the curation at the European Southern Observatory to link facilities to papers. So in this case, the facilities, the institutions did it for benchmarking for bibliometrics. But there was always this added side benefit of all that curation work helped the astronomy community with the faceted searching that you see in the ADS. We provided all that data back to the ADS. And so when you're using the ADS to search for literature, all those data links are really there from all the curation activities that are happening behind the scenes. And so in this case, thankfully, because of all this, I as an astronomer can do a multi-wavelength search. So I can search across the Hubble Space Telescope images, so that's optical. I can search across the Chandra X-ray Observatory. So as you see there, it's CXC in the search on the screen. And so I can search in the X-ray. And then I can also search with Spitzer, so in the infrared, so I can really do this broad search that I think would be impossible with all this work without the ADS. And it really makes their lives dramatically easier, I think. And I've heard quotes from astronomers saying, without the ADS, quoting the ADS is an important tool in astronomy is like quoting the air that we breathe. And so they really, I think they acknowledged that, that the ADS means a lot to the work that they're doing. I wanted to highlight again, too, like if you see to the right of the screen, hopefully, as the search that the sample search that I have of a multi-wavelength search. And you can see this database icon. I think it looks like the usual database icon above the title at the right corner. And it's the link to the data. So if you clicked on that, it would bring you to the data sources, what I showed you before, to that European Southern Observatory screen where you see the links and the data connected and then to the data archive. So this is a great example of all that work, tying everything together. And just to give you an example, I think something you can look at later that helps you sort of understand what I was describing there with multi-wavelength search. The World Wide Telescope view all these things in different wavelengths, all this data, and really allows you to explore, allows you to toggle between the freely available data sets in astronomy in a sort of visual way. And so I highly recommend that as someone on the public science side, seeing things through World Wide Telescope really helps with understanding, visualizing it. That's a freely available tool, thanks to the American Astronomical Society. Again, second time, I think, but it really started out of Microsoft, and so now the double S is taking it on. So just to also provide an overview from one thing that people, going back to that idea that people sometimes think that astronomy has got everything covered as far as big data, doing all these things differently in the way that we maybe want to do things. You can say that is the case. In some ways, the astronomy community is lucky it has these major archives and astronomy that I listed here. So the ESA Science Archive is one that I mentioned earlier, MAST is the Hubble Space Telescope Science Institute's archive. So this is the optical, mainly the optical, but it covers some other things that. So this is one of the major archives in astronomy. And we also have HESARC, which is the High Energy Astrophysics Science Archive Research Center. And so like data from the Chandra X-ray Observatory are going into HESARC as another place where data is being archived for the future. And really these places have minimal budget sometimes to keep these archival systems going. And so that's why Brian Keegan had all the trouble that he had trying to navigate these systems because really they're on shoestring budgets, trying to maintain these massive archives. And the other one too was the ESA infrared, so that's also Spitzer as an example. But in general then you go off into the long tail of astronomy data where oftentimes you'll find data sitting on servers or other locations you don't want to think about. And oftentimes astronomy is still working when it's sort of tape drives being shipped back and forth from ground-based missions and that's something that's still going on. Some big projects on the way here are the large synoptic survey telescopes. So this is a survey that's going to be running of the sky basically and just taking these scans of the sky on a consistent basis for years. So they're talking about the big data. Big data for astronomy is often tied to large synoptic survey telescope. This is one of the things they're trying to understand, how do we scale up to manage that kind of data. And then the other one is the James Webb Space Telescope. And I like this image here, like sometimes you can go see the JWST as it's called on a road show. For instance, that's out by Southwest. You can see it in full scale of what it's going to look like. But it's really just the transformer in space that's going to sit in one of these Lagrange points and really, I think, help us. One of the things they say with the JWST is help with exoplanet research. And so that's coming online soon, hopefully, too. One thing that I also want to mention, too, is the ADS, there's all that work that we do to tie the literature and the data. Really helps astronomers with metrics and navigating the resources. So here's sort of an example, how I as an astronomer could find out all the, you know, on a particular search, a keyword search, I could find all the authors involved and find all the papers that they're working on. And so that's one thing that helps the community. But like I said, one thing that we do, the librarians in astronomy, is these telescope bibliographies allow us to benchmark the observatories. And this is just one example from a friend, Jill Lagerström, at the Space Telescope Science Institute. And she did this work to understand where all of the literature in our bibliographies was pointing to. And so this really gives you a good example of most of the astronomy literature, at least from our perspective, was sitting in relatively few amount of journals. So I can list this out, the abbreviations, it's Astrophysics Journal, the Astrophysical Journal Supplements, the Astronomical Journal. And those are all by the American Astronomical Society. So 51% of the literature in our telescope bibliographies pointed to those journals. And then there's the Astronomy and Astrophysics Journal, which is run by EDP, and that's about 25%. And the monthly notices of the Royal Astronomical Society, this is sitting at 16%. And then there's the other. So the long tail of all the other journals that we're tracking. But there's really this core, we always talk about this core set of journals that are really important to us. And one of the things to mention here in astronomy, these journals have really relatively low timeline to when they become open. And so nowadays I think it's even being pushed back for astronomy and astrophysics to six months, even online immediately and open access. And so that's really fantastic, I think, one of the great things about astronomy is that they're doing that. And besides the point, you can also go to a preprint server called the Archive, which allows you to see sort of the earlier version that the astronomers post. So you can see almost the science in real time. And here's just another graphic to show you. This is from my colleague, Ann Jill Lagerström, who really gives you a glimpse of the usage of the archives. So this is the mass archive that I mentioned before at the Space Telescope Sciences. You can see that the current science, the not archival data, is keeping steady. And then you see this increase in usage of the archival data. So we often point to this as an example of how important archival data is to astronomy, too, like going back and looking at the data in different ways. But it's very difficult to do this because of money and the curation that is needed. So we know that as librarians. Another thing, too, I wanted to show you is a paper I worked on with a group of people called How Astronomers Share Their Data. And we mined the American Astronomical Society's journals for links to data and found that disturbingly a lot of these links were starting to break. And so you can see the percentage of this. And so it really emphasizes, again, that we need to do more in preserving and archiving this data. And I think a great example right now is the Data Refuge Project. If you've heard of this around the country to rescue data so that it's not lost. And I think the important thing to point out here is that this was already happening, that the data was already starting to be lost because people just linking to data and not thinking that it would disappear. And so I think this is an important, another example, how we leverage the ADS in astronomy to understand how we're doing. And I think it's also a great point to also talk about how important the ADS and that work that I mentioned before, how I thought about librarianship. And I wanted to point to a program that was sort of inspired by my work in astronomy called Data Science and Strength for Librarians. It was running at Harvard for about three iterations and then it moved to Copenhagen and there have been about two of them. And you can see the videos of these training programs on the Data Science and Strength for Librarians site for DTU for Copenhagen. But really all that curational, that programmatic work that I was doing inspired me to launch this program with a bunch of other people. And in general I reference it because it was a gateway for me to also connecting with the astronomy community around culture and programmatic things that they wanted to do. I think just to start the DOT astronomy community is a great resource for how sort of early career researchers are learning how to code and learning how to do all these creative things, but also to create that culture, right, of changing the culture and astronomy. And so there's other projects that I've listed, science writing for young astronomers, which happens in Europe and is sponsored by EDP Sian. And Astra Statistics at Penn State is something that is run by Eric Feigelsen as a great resource for the astronomy community to gear up and understand how to use code in their work. To become more productive and efficient in the work that they do. And Python Astronomy is another one which is going to happen in May I think. And again another option for astronomers to learn how to program in Python. Astra Informatics is something coming up in June and it's the Informatics community, you know, again linking all this information together so you can create a seamless environment or a seamless discovery environment for the astronomy community. And then there's Comps Icon, which was actually started at Harvard, which again goes back to this culture of trying to change the culture and astronomy and really addresses that challenge of communicating science. So I worked with some of the people in that community and that Comps Icon has really spread and they had sort of a side spin off project called Astrobytes, which allows, it's graduate students in astronomy that create bite-sized nuggets of papers so the public can possibly read them. So it's expanded to Ken Bites and there's, I think one of the things to cite here too is that I'm a fan of the, of Arfon Smith on Twitter and he just took on a role as the, I think, head of data science at Space Telescope Sciences Institute. And he's always doing some really creative things with what we're talking about here and someone to follow on Twitter if you can. But I know that we're likely to see some pretty amazing things from him in the near future in his group on linking data and software and the literature. And he used to work at GitHub but he also has roots in the Zooniverse project, so he's working with Chris Lenton as well. So I'm a big admirer and I suggest that you look into Arfon's work as well. So these are some of the links that I gather from my presentation that might be helpful. But if we want, we can open this up to questions at the moment. Yeah, thank you very much. This has been wonderful. It's interesting. I'm a data librarian in Social Sciences. It's interesting to see the overlaps in the conversations. I think more so now because I think a lot of these things are of interest to all communities. But I think one thing that I found is that we were so lucky in astronomy because we had all these things in one, you know, we had all this literature in one source, one place that we could tap. And the ADS. So I keep hoping for something like that to appear. One thing I keep my eye on is something called Science Open, which appears to be maybe something like that. Yeah, we're definitely not there yet. That's for sure. Yeah, so if anybody, thank you very much, Chris, for doing this. This is wonderful. Definitely an area that I am not at all familiar with, so very helpful to be able to do that. If anybody has any questions? Yeah, I also wanted to mention something in the news similar to this in a way is a project called Meta. And that was this Chan Zuckerberg big purchase. And they're really after sort of the artificial intelligence of trying to make the literature more help with discovery and help with the literature being more accessible because everyone is in overload right now with all the amount of literature that's out there. And so I would also recommend keeping an eye on that project, Meta. Yeah, I guess the one thing to mention too on my slides was if you have questions about the NASA ADS, then Alperta Kanmati, who I listed his Twitter handle before, is a great reference for understanding some of the things that you might need to know. So, you know, he's an amazing resource. I couldn't have done what I did in astronomy without him. And Luther Gropkoff at the European Southern Laboratory. And so how big is the NC State's astronomy program? Or do y'all have an astronomy program? I assume you would. Well, see, this is an interesting presentation because my focus now is broader. And it's kind of like a little bit of a step back in time for me because, you know, there's a smaller group of astronomers here, not too big. And so more of our work is in other domains now. And so taking what we did in astronomy and thinking about how we could do that here as well is something, I think, why they hired me. I said, you know, some of these ideas could be applied in some of the other domains. I think one of the issues that we run into, so for the government documents, government information librarians, one of the issues we run into, and I've run into this in deselecting some of our... So we have those data sets on CDs and DVDs in our collection that, especially at this point, I'm reluctant to let go. And trying to figure out how to, you know, match that to what is available online because there's been so many people who's gone off and they're... You know, they've taken that data and gone off in their directions with it, but is it the same as what was issued by the government in 1995? It's hard to say. And so I don't know if there are kids in the community. Oh, all the time. I think data at risk is going to be... You can call it. I think this is one of the big challenges in our community. You know, like, besides born digital, what I mentioned there of all the links and data that was on websites going, then, you know, the other side of it is, as all the stuff we have sitting on ourselves and locked away. And I remember when I was at the Center for Astrophysics, one of the astronomers got really interested in this and said, you know, I've got all this data. And people should know this is a big problem that we need more money to do this, you know, to cure it, to preserve this information. And, you know, it's a hard thing to come by. All that, you know, at least the funding to make this happen. But I know there's some cases where people are able to get that money to make data available. But, you know, when we were doing this project on how astronomers share data, you know, I would frequently come across astronomers that said, you know, like, I've got all this data sitting in all these binders. You know, you can help me put it into a more accessible format. And I just, you know, we didn't have the resources. Yeah, yeah. So it's so difficult. And so I wonder, you know, like, at least I guess in astronomy, we at least have with the major archive some data that's preserved, right? But there's a whole lot of data that's just, this is a funny story actually. The very first time, my first or second week that I landed at the Center for Astrophysics, someone asked me for Skylab data. And so I had to search around the center for anyone who might have squirreled away Skylab data. And so the chain went around for the longest time. Do you have some on the, you know, are they stored on the server? And eventually we couldn't find it. Oh, my Lord. Yeah. So, you know, there was someone who was just looking for it because they found it in a paper. Yeah. And so I'm sure that's happening all over the place. Yeah. I'm not sure there's much we can do about it except for the fact that, again, I applaud these projects like Data Refuge, which, you know, one of the things if you go to a Data Refuge event, you start off by first identifying something to a source to the Internet archive. And so at least you've got some mirrored copies of these things, you know, preserved links to some degree. But we're going to have to go back and curate all those links, you know, like that off-breaking and hope that the Internet archive was our savior and got, you know, got some of these. But I have a feeling that Brewster Kale at the Internet archive is very happy to see now that there's this interest in using the Internet archive for science purposes. He always, I had a conversation with him once saying that he's always been interested in science, you know, Internet archive having connections with science. And so it's good to see that happening. There was something in the chat about NSF. There was an update presentation. NSF saying that they want data to be preserved at the institutional level, not the department project website level. I think the comment to make about that is that the NSF sponsors, you know, funds projects that allow, you know, that these projects to set up archives in particular domains. But the sustainability part is the big challenge because they'll give that initial seed funding and you'll have something working for a while. But then they want to move on or, you know, like they want to fund other projects. And so you're on the hook for supporting this. So I think one thing in astronomy, on my way out, the American Astronomical Society was getting more involved with getting more interested in trying to help with this preserving data and helping with, like, setting up an archive for astronomy and helping with that sustainability. So they were working with people in Arizona, I believe, with the I-Plant initiative. So I don't know where they're at now, but that was, I think maybe at the society's level, that's a great another place where this can reside. There's a lot of data, but we have docs that go back to that era and without a program that makes sense to, you know, do we keep them here at our level? In our library, just from that, I mean, never mind the agency aspect of it, but I've been digging through a whole lot of astronomy reports. We are marking for weeding, unfortunately. Yeah, that's another thing, too. So we often hope that other institutions are taking care of this. I remember when I was at Harvard, we had a Harvard-MIT meetup between science librarians. And the science librarians at MIT said that they had ditched some of their collections because we had listed things in the Harvard Library catalog. And we kind of looked at each other and said, we hope we have it. Yeah, because what's represented in the catalog is sometimes not representative of what the true story is. And so I think you have to be careful with weeding to some extent. You know, I think one of the things we were hoping for is there would be that communication. You know, you would also contact the library so you think of it and see what the situation is on the ground. Yeah, I mean, luckily with the docs system we have to offer for the most part, but it can be a little bit tricky. It's definitely painful, is right now. It is very painful. You definitely feel like a hoarder. Alright, well guys, we are here every time at this point. Thank you very much Chris for doing this. This is wonderful.