 Hi, it's Cory Doctor from Electronic Frontier Foundation. I'm here with Kyle Wiens from iFixit, and we're back at the US Copyright Office 1201 Exemption hearings at UCLA Law School, and Kyle you've talked on several of the categories But all related to repair and iFixit obviously are the kind of great repair shop in the sky for so many people I wonder if you could talk about your general impression of the of the hearings now that we're in the final stretch We've been here for three days. What do you make of it all? Well, this is it feels like we have to go through effectively a lawsuit in order to be able to fix certain things We've been having discussions about repairing tractors about repairing modern vehicles where like on a Tesla the onboard diagnostic port doesn't give you much so you have to get into the wireless telemetry and It's a it's a very tedious very legalistic process to just get the ability to tinker with and repair stuff I was really struck today when you were talking about the Example of data that is inside a car telemetry from inside a car that's generated by the owner of that car driving that car and The gentleman from Harman who was arguing against an exemption to allow people to access that and Harman is making these telematic systems Are there in yeah, and he said we don't own that data and you said no no I own that data. That's my data It's my car. I'm driving it and he said no you don't own it either right the manufacturer owns it That's their perception is that the manufacturer owns it and that's what the manufacturer going to claim And it's okay. Where is your car right now? How fast is it going? What's the what's the RPM of the engine and they're saying that the manufacturer owns that absolutely incorrect? It strikes me that When we when we talk about repair in the context of copyright We get at the true nature of 1201 what what 1201 has become maybe it was envisioned as a way to Stop people from jail breaking their DVD players What it seems to have become as a way to force people to arrange their affairs to benefit company shareholders It's all about control. Yeah 12 12 of 1 fundamentally and and everything that we're doing with with right to repair with what this is We have to go and ask for permission to do something with the thing that we own and the the the flow of control has passed beyond If you know if I have a chair if I used to have a car without electronics I can do anything I wanted with it I could turn into a race car if I wanted now if I want to turn my car into a race car I have to go and modify software and I have to go and get permission and the copy of that to do that Yeah, it seems like in the old days We had this argument that we made that you bought it you own it and that should be the end of it And and as that argument has fallen on deaf ears We've come up with all of these other arguments, you know recycling creates jobs or repair creates jobs or repair creates Let's people get more value out of their goods or it lets people customize things or let's people who have disabilities Customize for their uses But I mean fundamentally isn't the answer to this this is mine and if I want to do something weird with it It's none of your damn business. Exactly. It's it's about ownership I mean and that's I mean you that Aaron prison house keys new book the end of ownership And this is what we're seeing the moment you put software into it. You move from a Personal property law where we can do pretty much anything We want with the things that we own to now intellectual property laws this morass of complications that involves legal treaties and interpretations and case law and yeah It's it's incredibly confusing and frustrating Aaron's been following that tweets From the thing and commenting on them with things like that is the dumbest thing I've ever heard It's helpful having the legal professor yeah Well Kyle You've been a really effective spokesman for the right of people to do weird things with their stuff Even if other people don't understand why they want to do it You've been great at both articulating why someone might want to do something that someone else can't understand but also at Articulating why it's no one else's business even if they can't understand and I really have to thank you for it It's been great to watch you do your thing in action today I know that your normal milia is you know with your sleeves rolled up in a Yes, strange for me to be in effectively a courtroom But you're doing well on that in there and I really want to thank you for for what you did for all of us