 in our area I guess. Yeah, you know like we're awaiting the sheaths when we're shearing. So you shear them? Yeah, we always monitor what goes on. Animals get injured? Do they get, yeah you have to shear them? They've been selectively bred to produce more wool, haven't they these sheaths? Morenoes. Like over time they've been bred to produce more wool than they usually would in like a natural circumstance. Not in the last 150 years, not in Australia, they're not bred for wool. But what do you breed them for? Do you use them for meat or something? Do you kill them for meat? Yeah, they get sold for meat where there's stew, the where there's stew, and then the rest, they're a part of our live program. So they're a part of our cropping program. So they help to keep weeds down and they help us with our rotations, so that we've got good soils. You don't send them to slaughterhouses? Yeah, we certainly do. So when you put them on that, and you've seen what happens to them in the slaughterhouse? You can't keep an eye on them every single animal? I guess you can't keep an eye on them the whole time. And you can look after them as well as you can, but not everybody obviously. When we send them to the slaughterhouse, they're essentially getting either bolt gunned in their head or electrically stunned and then they're having their head cut off and sliced into pieces. So from the animal's perspective, we don't think it's necessary, like when we can live perfectly healthy without eating animals or using animals. I mean, there's other ways we can make money too. We try to talk to farmers about alternatives, instead of using these animals for their bodies. You know how intelligent sheep are and that they feel pain, they want to live. They'd probably be terrified in the place of slaughter. There's blood everywhere, it smells of fear and feces in there. A bit inside a slaughterhouse, it's not a very nice place. I think some would certainly are better than others. And the ones that like Wampo, their standards are extremely high because they're specifically for international top quality meat. They say that, they say their standards are the best in the world, but do they adhere to their standards all the time? Who knows? Who knows? But even let's talk about the best standard for killing animals, the height of humane slaughter. Let's talk about that. Even then, the animal is losing their life, a very short life they have in relationship to the cows, cows live to 20, how long does sheep live to? How long does sheep live to? Can live to 10, 11 years. When do they get killed around half their age? Two years old. It depends. Say three years old. They're still really young. Or later on it just depends. So from the individual animal's eyes? It's hard, so it's hard. It's hard, so you're a vegetarian. No, no, no. You're not vegetarian? No, because the egg and dairy industry, obviously they kill all their animals, they exploit all their animals, and we're vegans, we don't use anything from animals. Yeah, also you're vegan. Yeah, so everyone here is vegan. It's policy, you can't advocate for animals without using their bodies. Which makes sense. What do you think about it? Honestly, be honest, I don't mind. I've heard everything, if you completely straight up. I do get frustrated as a farmer, and some of the films and stuff they get shown from Peter are completely out of bullshit. They're doing the wrong thing by themselves because farmers, good farmers, support Peter. And then they're showing like dummies instead of like sheep. Do you have evidence for that? They have, they got pulled up on it. Showing dummies. It was on Facebook, and they put forward this footage and saying that it was a sheep. So do you think any of these are dummies? No. Okay, so if this is happening even once, even once in this industry, then the whole industry is what? No, it shouldn't affect the whole industry. I don't agree with that. Like do you think a bolt gun in the cow's head, if they had a beautiful happy life, do you think that at the end of the day is humane? I think it's probably that's a better way. Wouldn't you prefer that than they were slaughtered? Yeah, but would you say that that's humane? I would. There are changes on our farm, and when animals are hurt and injured, that we actually have to do that, and it's not a nice job. But, you know, and the vet will tell you something. That you have to kill the animal? That they really would, you know, the best option is to do that. Is that what these animals are getting? No, but I'm saying so. So you're saying if that makes it sound dramatic, it's a bolted head, but it's better to be honest. It's like getting shot in the head, really, isn't it? Then we put down other animals. That are suffering. That's when it becomes justified. But if they're not suffering, do you think it's... But it's a quick way, so it's not a bad way, it's a quick way. Do you know what the word humane means? Yes. It means to show compassion. Yes. Well, in one sense it's showing compassion, because there's a worse way than it makes it humane. What if there was, like, if we let them live? That's what we're asking. If we let them live, we don't use them. We don't breed them into existence to use their families and separate them, you know, like... And look, you just don't hear what you're saying. It's just... Well, it's probably part of your... You've been eating meat for... Millions? Millions? We've been killing each other for millions of years as well. You know, like, I guess we used to eat a lot of meat, like our parents' generations, didn't they? It's all passed down, tradition. And we don't now, but we would have two or three, you know, nights where we just... we have vegetarians. Yeah. But in their day, so it is... It's progressing. It is progressing, yeah. The thing is, if no one bought lamb, you wouldn't be growing these sheep on your property, hey? It would make it harder, but then in one sense... You would chew something else? But in one sense, it's better off that I'm doing that because I'm not having to spray the amount of chemicals that farmers without that do because they have to control weeds and that we're doing a more... We're doing crop rotation and everything after the land as well. So, you know, it's, you know... I understand, like, farmers are, like, brought up into this sort of farming culture, you know? You know, I have a degree in agriculture and a business agriculture, but, you know, I wasn't brought up on a farm, so... Yeah. Do you think that there could be a more ethical alternative than a bolt gun in the head for these animals? Say, not using them at all? And maybe alternatives for farmers even that could be just as lucrative? Because I don't know if there's that much money in, you know, animal farming, really. Like, chickens are worth 50 cents each or something like that. Oh, okay, so you don't need to exceed that? No. But I was thinking about chicken farming. I thought that was pretty cool. And I'll take them out until you've got to go make them run and you get the Mara dogs to look after them and they've, you know, they're not in these bloody chants that they're in now. Well, that's better, but it's... And we're giving them the, what do they say, um, free range? Free range is, like, our households have got more than a free range as well. Free range is a free range. That's a ridiculous term. I know. I know there's no real framework. Sounds really cool. And it's really not. They can keep them in sheds and stuff with free range. Like, if we steered away from using animals at all, like, we wouldn't be trying to find this humane way of doing the wrong thing. Because all chickens, when they stop producing eggs, they don't go off to some happy sanctuary. They get killed, for me. Do you know what I mean? When they're not of use to us. At the farm, they don't. I just let them live their life. You've got a few in the backyard. Yeah. The rule is... If they didn't lay eggs, would you still have them? Oh, yeah, I like them. Do you eat chickens? Yeah, but I wish that I... I actually wish that I ate my own chickens rather than eating the chickens. The ones that you love? Well, yeah. Well, not love, but do you know, I think that's very... because all the hormones and shit that's going into these other chickens, and I don't know their life. So you're looking at it from a health perspective, not from the chickens' perspective. What if they just lived out their life? This is a very controversial... No, come to me. Talk to me about it. I used to think the same way. Not too long ago. But then I started looking at it through their eyes, and it changed a lot the way I see things. Because if that was me there, how would I want to be treated? Would I think that that's humane? Probably not. So, I understand... They also don't... They really don't have the same brain because in a way... You have to provide evidence for that because I've seen cows learning their name, coming when they're called. I've seen cows crying on a slaughterhouse truck on the way to be killed. But I've stood out the front of a slaughterhouse with a gas chambering pig and heard them scream like terrified children in these gas chambers. But they claim to be the most humane method in Australia. So, the most humane method for stunning pigs in Australia is, well, it's Victoria, South Australia. They would have them in Perth. I'm not too sure about Perth though. I don't know. Do you know where pigs get built in Perth? Or is it right? There's two types. It's the forks, and it's a bit harder because they run around and it's harder to effectively stun them. But what they do is they put them in this cage. Where is it? It's a cage and they drop them down into CO2 gas. And they used to think that they just fell asleep. But some activists went in there and left cameras in there. And they realised that they were thrashing and screaming and terrified. And what was happening is the CO2 reacts with saliva and moisture inside their bodies. And it creates, like, carbonic acid. And they're burning from the inside out in their last moments. So, horrible way to go. But that is the height of humane slaughter. In Australia, UK, worldwide, for pork. Without those cameras, we would never have known that. We would have just thought sleeping gas, you know?